As we’ve frequently pointed out, no one knows exactly what happened between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman that night in Sanford. But the story most of the media and the Martin family have been assiduously pushing just took a big hit. Their version: Zimmerman wasn’t scratched in his altercation with Trayvon and was just another cracker out to kill him a black kid. But now that some actual facts have come to light, they may to have to conjure a different spin on things . . .
abc.com reports that
A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.
And Trayvon’s autopsy (via wftv.com) turned up somethin, too:
WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.
The information could support George Zimmerman’s claim that Martin beat him up before Zimmerman shot and killed him.
As legalinsurrection.com points out, “this doesn’t prove that George Zimmerman acted lawfully, but it breaks the narrative that Zimmerman was not injured, pushed by the Martin family attorneys, left-wing blogs, LGF, and many others with an agenda.”
Actually Dan, it does support Zimmerman’s story. He never through a punch, sustained significant injuries and only used his gun because he felt his life was in danger. Up until now I would only say that he was “not guilty.” The newly revealed forensic evidence supports his statement to police. This is why Corey couldn’t get a Grand Jury to indict. He is innocent of criminal wrong doing.
Grammer Nazi…. Threw, not through…
Grammar Nazi…
No one expects the Spelling Inquisition!
I blame TTAG’s lack of editing function….
lol, yep me too
I’m curious to find where you got the idea he never threw a punch, or that he is innocent of any criminal wrongdoing. Thrown punches don’t necessarily land, and there are other ways he could have initiated physical contact without striking Martin, such as attempting to restrain him.
Not that there’s any evidence that’s the case, which is why I believe Zimmerman will be found ‘not guilty’. Still, I find his version of events absurd.
Your statement is absurd. You just know that the white-black-Hispanic racist Zimmerman was gunning to murder a sweet innocent black child and lo an behold little Trayvon showed up. It could have happened any other way.
damn lack of editor… meant couldn not have happened any other way
I said nothing of the sort. If you want to claim my statement is absurd, then address my statement and not some caricature you made up.
What I said is that Zimmerman’s version of events is absurd, and it is. He would have us believe Martin sought him out as he was innocently walking back to his car, and came at him telling him he was going to die. Not only is it flatly contradicted by Martin’s girlfriend’s testimony, it isn’t even credible on its face.
Zimmerman is asking us to believe that Martin, who had never been arrested before, alone and unarmed, took it upon himself to kill a stranger 100 lbs above his weight class, with his bare hands, on his way back from a snack run, for reasons unknown.
So if you believe this, I have to ask: exactly what kind of kamikaze psychopath do you think Trayvon Martin was and upon what evidence do you believe it?
Dave:
I am beginning to feel sorry for you. You are obviously still under the influence of the MSM disinformation campaign, i.e., (will quote you directily)
“…Zimmerman is asking us to believe that Martin, who had never been arrested before, alone and unarmed, took it upon himself to kill a stranger 100 lbs above his weight class, with his bare hands, on his way back from a snack run, for reasons unknown…”
They were approximately the same weight with Martin having the advantage of height. Also, while Martin may not have face criminal charges yet he had been suspended three time for (1) likely possession of stolen property and a “burglery tool,” having marijauna residue and drug paraphenalia in his backpack and tagging, a known gang related activity.
Like others you are emotionally attached to the MSM created image of sweet innocent Trayvan versus the white supremicist Zimmerman.
Can you support that contention?
I don’t think you’re quite grasping the situation here. Setting aside your apparent zeal to do away with the presumption of innocence where Martin is concerned, what Zimmerman is suggesting is not the behavior of a juvenile delinquent. It is not the behavior of a petty thief, a marijuana smoker, or a vandal. It is the behavior of a zombie straight out of Hollywood’s latest apocalypse flick.
So I’m going to ask you again, what evidence makes you believe Martin was prone to that sort of behavior?
Dave:
FLAME DELETED It’s on the record. Zimmerman is 5’8″/180lbs vs Martin who is 6’2″/160lbs. The 100lb difference was reported in the MSM and was made up from whole cloth. “Juvenile delinquents” as you put it regularly kill people for $50 in the ghetto. So explain to me how Zimmerman received his injuries?
By the way it’s Zimmerman who gets the presumption of innocence not Martin. It’s a zero sum game (that a technical term). If Zimmerman is innocent by reason of self defense then Martin is guilty assault and attempted murder. They both are on trial.
So you can’t provide a citation or you won’t? The police booking report from April 11th has Zimmerman at185 lbs, and that’s after Zimmerman’s own attorney publicly commented on how much weight he’d lost. Try again.
Of course, nowhere does anybody claim that Trayvon Martin at any point demanded money or other valuables from Zimmerman. But it’s okay to just assume that, 70 feet from home, he turned back to attempt an unarmed robbery on a heavier man, despite him never being known to have mugged anyone before, because… ?
Also, I might point out they weren’t in any ghetto. Martin’s father lived in the same neighborhood Zimmerman did – why is it that the behaviour of killers in the ghetto can be invoked to cast aspersions on Martin’s character but not Zimmerman’s?
Clearly Martin beat the snot out of him. I don’t think that’s in dispute. As far as that’s concerned I have no problem believing Zimmerman’s story. As to who initiated physical contact, it seems to me it could go either way. As for who followed and confronted whom, Zimmerman’s version of events remains absurd.
If they’re both on trial, then either they both get the benefit of the presumption of innocence or neither one does. The only alternative, quite literally, is to hold a double standard. I don’t suppose you can offer any justification for doing that?
So you admit that they were in the same weight class. The rest of your post is just noise to cover the fact that you were just repeating memes you got from the MSM.
Let me make they are both on trial concept clear to you.
The presumption of innocence goes to the accused, George Zimmerman. So the null hypothesis is that Trayvon Martin is guilty of assault and attempted murder. It is up to the prosecution to show that null hypothesis is false, i.e., Zimmerman assaulted Martin and murdered him as a result of the assault. Zimmerman’s presumption of innocence means that Martin is presumed to be guilty.
Arguing with you anti-Zimmerman types is like arguing with a 9-11 Truther.
Nothing of the sort. The weight you’re quoting is under the Zimmerman’s weight at booking, six weeks after the shooting, during which time his own attorneys were remarking on his rapid weight loss.
The presumption of innocence doesn’t work that way (and that’s not the way a statistical hypothesis test works, either). A finding of “not guilty” merely means that the finder of fact cannot determine beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty – it does not require the finder of fact to make a positive determination in the opposite direction.
(Similarly, in a hypothesis test one ‘fails to reject the null hypothesis’, one does not ‘confirm the null hypothesis’ due to an insufficient p-value.)
ZIMMERMAN WENT LOOKING FOR TROUBLE, HE SHOT AND KILLED A TEENAGER WHO IN THIS CASE, KICKED HIS ASS, THE SAME THING ANYONE WOULD DO IF ALIFE THREATHING EVENT PRESENTED ITSELF. HE DID NOT EXPECT THAT HE COULD CARRY A GUN AND STALK THIS TEENAGER IN HIS ON COMMUNITY AND NOT HAVE A SERIOUS CONFRONTATION. ZIMMERMAN IS A CRAZY ASS GUY WHO IS AFRAID HE MIGHT GO TO THE ELECTRIC CHAIR. HE WILL SPEND THE REST OFHIS LIFE IN JAIL. BTY , this is and was alway about the value and worth of a BLACK TEEN, SANFORD FL IS THE SEAT OF AN ABUSIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THEY ROUTINELY STOP BLACK MEN AND SEARCH THEM IN THEIR OWN NEIBORHOODS. I KNOW , I LIVE THERE.
MARK OMARA, WILL DO WHATEVER HE CAN GET AWAY WITH TO GET ZIMMERMAN OFF , INCLUDING TURNING THIS CASE INTO A ZOO WITH LOT IN UGLY BREAST. TRAYVON IS JUST LIKE ANY YOUNG TEEN, SO YOU DID NOT SMOKE POT OR DRINK A BEER AS A TEEN. TRAYVON COMES FROM A MIDDLE CLASS FAMILY , HE WAS NOT A THUG OR CRIMINAL, HE WAS A KID ENJOYING HIS LIFE ZIMMERMAN TOOK FROM HIM.
ZIMMERMAN IS A COWARD HE COULD HAVE LEFT THE GUN ALONE AND FOUGHT LIKE A MAN , BUT NO HE HAD TO PULL A GUN ON THIS KID. HE KILLED HIM, NOW HE IS SORRY AND HE SAYS ITS GOD WILL, HE IS CRAZY AND DANGEROUS.
This was a simple case of a young thug not taking shit from no body. I’ve seen it many times the same ol thing “why u all up in my business” simply cause a question such as excuse me, what are you doing in this comunity
The sad thing is that you think that’s a valid question to ask someone… your ebonic response makes more sense than the question….why are you all up in their business? Zimmerman stepped out of the vehicle and got his hat handed to him. Ask me why I’m walking through your neighborhood. You’ll get a two-word response. The second word being “off!”.
Then perhaps you need some anger management. Normal people don’t react to questioning like that. I, as a non-psycho, would react by saying, “Yeah, I’m staying at my dad’s fiancee’s house. It’s right over here.”
If Trayvon Martin had the barest amount of manners and a proper, non-ghetto upbringing, he wouldn’t have sucker punched George Zimmerman then proceeded to bash his head on the ground.
The only evidence we have that Martin initiated any physical altercation is Zimmerman’s own, admittedly self-serving, testimony.
Ask me why I’m walking through your neighborhood. You’ll get a two-word response. The second word being “off!”.
That would be a reasonable response. But jumping the questioner and handing him a beatdown would not be a reasonable response.
Asking someone a question like that warrants an — kicking.
No, it does not. There are justifiable uses of force, and this is not one of them.
Nope.
It could warrant a ‘piss off’, or any number of smartass responses, but not a beating.
But what if Zimmerman didn’t take kindly to being told to piss off? What if he tried to restrain Treyvon, or had a swing at him first?
Even if you fully subscribe to the wannabe thug caricature, what is the likelihood that Treyvon would just assault Zimmerman unprovoked? He’s not on his home turf, he doesn’t have his homies there to back him up, he isn’t strapped…what is his motivation?
That’s what doesn’t pass the smell test for me. Sure, the evidence shows that Zimmerman was getting his ass handed to him when he shot him, but that wasn’t really ever the point. The point is who initiated the violence. What’s upsetting people is that a lot people, including the majority on this board, see no reason why Zimmerman should not be armed and harassing law abiding citizens, and then shoot them to death without repercussion. Due process was NOT followed here and rightly or wrongly, because the victim was black and aggressor whitish, people thought that it was not followed because of race.
2nd Degree murder is a stupid charge though IMO. Manslaughter maybe, but I see no way a murder charge will stick.
Not just assault him unprovoked, but according to Zimmerman sought him out on his own initiative.
There’s a whole basket of unspoken assumptions you have to implicitly accept in order to make this scenario credible. I know this is not the sort of thing I would do. I’ll bet it’s not the sort of thing anyone here could imagine themselves doing. Nor could they imagine their friends doing it. Hell, even the bullies you knew in high school probably wouldn’t have taken on someone with 100 lbs on them unless they had the advantage of numbers, or a weapon, or both.
So the implicit assumption is that Trayvon Martin is nothing like you, or your friends, or even the most aggressive and sadistic people you knew in your youth. That really, he’s nothing like anyone you know personally. That he’s a creature of mindless aggression, unconcerned with such cognitive niceties as motive or even self-preservation.
Strange that so many people seem to accept these unspoken assumptions. I can’t help but wonder whether it has anything to do with the Zombie Apocalypse craze.
I honestly hoping that you are just being a troll and don’t really believe the statements that you are typing. There is no justification for attacking someone because they asked you what you are doing in a public setting.
Especially not at night, in an area that’s seen a lot of crime, and you’re dressed like a thug.
Yes, dressed like a thug, and dressed like a good percentage of my students. Why assume that he is a thug and not a college student?
That reaction will get the kicker shot and killed… again.
@bruce
Good luck with your strategy of being “good fighter” and kicking everyone’s ass that questions you in public. Maybe we’ll be reading about how well that works for YOU next. Make sure you wear your hoodie.
I used to be a Turnkey and in charge of Foundry Security on weekends and asking someone what they are doing or what activities they are involved in does not warrant having someone attacking you and trying to bash your brains out.
And where did you find the crystal ball that gave you that version of events? Someone else could speculate that Zimmerman threatened him with his weapon and an unarmed Trevon was unsuccessfully defending his life with the only means he had in a desperate struggle for the weapon. Both versions have the same proof to back them up, none.
The truth is that we will probably never know what really happened in the 15 or so seconds right before the shooting. Version 1 or version 2. All the rest of this stuff is irrelevant.
Hardly. Do you really think it’s even remotely plausible that someone pulled a gun on someone, they rushed them, pinned them to the ground, and beat the shit out of them while they STILL had the gun in their hand? If you do, then it’s time to stop watching bad action movies and spend a little time in the real world.
It’s plausable if Martian was extremely stupid and Zimmerman was willing to pull the weapon but reluctant to pull the trigger.
it’s “bitness” geeze lurn to spail Mang!
I demand charges on Angela Corey.
You know why she was smiling while filing that rediculous 2nd degree murder charge?
She knows that as an agent of the state, she is 100% immune.
She’s not 100% immune–there are certain acts she could have committed that would lead to her prosecution–but I don’t see anything that they could charge her for. She’s an elected official working on behalf of her constituency. Is it wrong? I don’t know, probably. But she is bowing to public pressure, and that’s something that she’s supposed to do–within reason–as an elected official. After this is all settled and done, and they fail to convict Zimmerman–and I very much believe they will–I will be more interested to see what Zimmerman does. If aquitted, the finding may be a de facto ruling on his right to defend himself under Floridas “stand your ground” law, which forbids prosecution … And given the prohibition on prosecution for an individual covered by that law, this would then become a civil rights case …
She is immune from prosecution and liability but she is not immune from misconduct charges. While her actions in this case don’t rise to the Nifong level I can see a sanction in her future if the case goes South in a hurry.
Is it possible that filing charges was a stalling tactic intended to buy time for the various police departments to gear up to deal with civil unrest when Zimmerman isn’t convicted?
There’s a reasonable chance that if the prosecutor hadn’t even bothered to charge him, things would have gone sideways with no time for the cops to prepare.
But she is bowing to public pressure, and that’s something that she’s supposed to do–within reason–as an elected official.
Not when it comes to fabricating charges against someone the public doesn’t like purely due to his race.
Actually, Zimmerman needs to consider a civil suit against the funeral home director who said there were NO INJURIES to Trayvon. #EpicFail
uh…aside from that nasty little bullet hole….
If you are ever involved in a scrum that leads to deploying your gun in any manner, whether or not shots are fired, you must demand medical attention immediately.
You might be more injured than you know, because that huge adrenaline dump will mask the pain of broken bones or deep bruises. The hospital will scope out your injuries and document them for your defense.
Second, the Angela Coreys of the world will not be able to claim that you couldn’t have been injured very much because you didn’t go to the hospital.
Finally, it will get the cops off your back for several hours and give you a chance to calm down, get your brain in gear and call your family or your lawyer.
That, my friend, is very sound advice. CC classes should teach that.
The CWP class I attended, did. The instructor was a retired LEO.
Same here.
I can’t agree more Ralph.
Regardless of what actually happened, one thing that looks bad, is that not only did the cops not take him in, but he waited until the next day to go in for treatment.
I am not saying anything in regard to the seriousness of his injuries, however to a judge and jury, people will think, well it could have been that bad. The cops didn’t demand he take an ambulance ride, which they should have done, and he went to the police department then home.
Always, and I mean always demand medical treatment. Like Ralph said it gives you time, plus with all that sometimes people don’t know they are injured. It helps in a lot of ways.
Excellent point!
Ralph, a scrum is a very well organized, controlled part of rugby (because there are real dangers of neck injuries). You mean a ruck or more likely a maul.
Do you think Ms. Corey filed 2nd degree murder (an extremely difficult charge to prove in this situation) in a ploy to have Zimmerman acquitted? Maybe she thought charges needed to be filed to satisfy the public uproar so she’s going for the toughest charge to almost purposely high-jack her own case knowing the evidence is going to lean toward legitimate SD.
Just a thought.
It wouldn’t be suprising. She’s an elected official and should–within reason–bow to public pressure as such. The question is whether or not this is a violation of Zimmerman’s civil rights, as Florida’s “stand your ground” law prohibits prosecution of a person covered under the statute. A violation of the law could put Corey and the State of Florida in hot water, and cost Florida a tidy sum of money (which probably won’t go far towards rebuilding Zimmerman’s destroyed life as a result of the NBC-induced public persecution) … I wonder if he’d have a libel case against NBC-Universal …
No – she charged a 10 yr old with murder in Florida for killing his sister by accident. She is just making a name for herself. Can anyone say “Marcia Clarke”?
No. What she did, as it appears to me, is that she over-charged him. Meaning, she most likely knew that the 2nd degree murder won’t stick, but because the initial charge is so high, she might get a conviction on lesser charges. This is the epitome of unethical behavior by a prosecutor. If GZ is proved not guilty, it’s her they should prosecute instead.
sorry, meant to respond to Micah
First comment didn’t take.
+1 – aiming for a “consolation” prize of manslaughter might be her game. Honestly, I don’t think she would have gotten manslaughter if it was the highest charge she sought.
That or she can offer Zimmerman a plea deal to Manslaughter after the circus dies down.
Wouldn’t the stated injuries require Zimmerman to also visit the hospital or a clinic at some point beyond seeing his personal physician the next day? I did find the other medical expert’s opinion interesting to consider upon watching the video 1:40 noting that a significant abrasion should be visible on GZ. Meanwhile, the typical mass medias continue to show pics of a young TM.
It’s almost as if opportunists, race-baiters, and the mass media make crap up in order to rile people and try to cause conflict for their own agenda, leading to braindead sheep buying into their overlords’ plans.
Who knew?
It’s going to boil down to how well the prosecution can stack the jury. If they can stack it with the right people, they can convict him on killing President Kennedy. I don’t think they’ll be able to get 12 jurors on-board. A hung jury or a complete acquittal is far more likely.
When Zimmerman is acquitted stand by for LA style riots. Florida will burn. The prosecutor is an idiot for bringing those charges because they’ve all but guaranteed civil unrest.
When Zimmerman is acquitted stand by for LA style riots. Florida will burn. The prosecutor is an idiot for bringing those charges because they’ve all but guaranteed civil unrest.
I see a Rodney King style event happening after GZ is acquitted. But, it would have and will happen no matter which way GZ goes free. If they didn’t charge him, we’d have riots. Now that they’ve charged him, it’s just delaying the inevitable. The riots will come after the acquittal.
There is every possibility this doesn’t even go to a jury. There will be a “Stand Your Ground/self-defense” immunity hearing beforehand.
The state’s attorney didn’t want to prosecute based on the evidence they had. This is the same evidence which was released yesterday. The judge is going to be faced with a seriously injured Zimmerman, two eyewitnesses describing the assault, and a dead Trayvon Martin with bruised and cut knuckles.
This case will more than likely be dismissed. Then the state will burn.
Diane is wrong right off the bat. Trayvon was not shot while walking anywhere, he was shot while beating George on the ground. That starts the ball rolling in all these stories and it’s not true.
I’d like to take this opportunity to juxtapose the case of Daman Lehman, who put James Foster in a coma for commenting about his car, vs that of Trayvon Martin and Zimmerman. Who doesn’t think that Foster would have been justified in putting a hole in Lehman?
+1
He STILL deserves to be shot. Twice in the gut and left to die.
Murder charge was shooting way way too high.
Zimmerman will be acquitted, as he should be. At best he may be guilty of manslaughter, and thats a stretch as well.
None of this changes the fact that Zimmerman was DTFM in the first place. Quick poll: Does anyone here who CCW’s also go around their neighborhood at night asking people what they are doing there?
Not guilty of murder, but pretty frickin stupid.
I don’t have a CCW, but I can tell you that at best I would have stayed a good distance away and observed causally. It is called surveillance. Most people can’t do it to save their lives, but something that when done right is a very powerful HIT tool.
We know the 911 operator stated “we don’t need you to do that”. Ok it isn’t an order like “STOP!” but none the less I think Mr. Z may have had a little bit of adrenalin going at the time.
I’ve looked beyond the race baiting MSM and their biased reporting and photos of both parties. When you see the history of break ins in Zimmerman’s neighborhood, the ineffectiveness or lack of a police response and Martin’s school suspensions for possession of stolen jewelry and drug paraphernalia, it becomes clear that Zimmerman was protecting himself from a punk that fancied himself a thug.
If Martin had lived through this he would have had his own gun next time. You can be sure of it.
Yeah, I’m sure Martin’s rap sheet came up in Zimmermans scout car. Zimmerman wouldn’t have had to protect himself had he stayed in his vehicle, and the only reason he exited the vehicle is because he was armed. He obviously can’t fight.
Yes. I live on a private-community island in the Puget Sound. We are always aware of and confrontational with anyone and everyone who does not belong. We do it politely and friendly. If an escalation is required, we adjust. Local LEO’s are aware and onboard with the understanding that their response time is longer than incedent reqirements. There have been break-ins of home and auto, and auto-theft, some assaults, and other violent behaviors. These have all occured from land(at ferry parking or attempts to access ferry without authority) or from the water(persons to access the island for recreation or to do harm). Everyone tries to be alert and as a community we have to have our own security methods as LEO’s only respond after an ‘incedent’.
Zimmerman in my thinking did no wrong. He confronted T. and got avoidance. Z called 911 and was told to stand down. Z did so, and T responded by confronting Z, with an assault. Z try to talk him down. With a minute T had seriously injured Z. The pistol then came into play, in Z’s hand, T’s hand(s) over the slide(no casing was found and a full magazine with casing in chamber was described). In my opinion, at this time, with the experience I have, Treyvon was a thug, his actions led to his death, and he alone is responsible.
At best he may be guilty of manslaughter, and thats a stretch as well.
While it is theoretically possible that somewhere in the universe, there is a martial art that involves attacking someone’s hands with your face, the probability that space aliens came to Earth and taught it to Zimmerman are indistinguishable from zero.
Martin has bruised knuckles and a bullet hole, Zimmerman has a broken nose, two black eyes, abrasions on the back of his head, and other miscellaneous minor injuries.
If you can come up with a scenario that has Zimmerman as the aggressor and can explain why Martin’s only injuries are bruised knuckles (and the bullet hole), I’d like to hear it, but the only one I can think of involves a completely incompetent coroner and the aforementioned space aliens.
If I recall, Zimmerman says he did not approach Martin. Martin’s girlfriend, with whom Martin was on the phone with during his walk through the neighborhood makes that claim.
There does not appear to be any, you know, real evidence either way.
This WHOLE escapade from start ’till now is a disgusting look at humanity and it’s motivations. It is also a direct result of people not being held immediately responsible for their actions, good or bad. The immediate doling out of absolute punishment or reward for actions is the only way to assure accountability. Unfortunately that will never happen in this country. This is another reason I have an affinity for wildlife and the natural world. In the wild actions are almost always immediately rewarded or punished in the most absolute ways. But that’s because they’re too stupid to change the environment right? Yet the super intelligent human race has used it’s smarts to destroy itself, it’s home and the homes of others in the most uncivil, low down ways imaginable, over and over and over. This whole case would make a great study of how NOT to live.
At this point all we have is some medical reports. Not enough evidence to claim much of anything at this point.
I will put this out there though. It is possible that Z initiated contact with TM and started loosing badly. Once that happened he drew his gun. Not saying that IS what happened but it is just a possibility.
I know they filed 2nd degree murder, but it is possible that he could be convicted with a less charge like manslaughter. I am not sure if those charges need to be filed at the same time or prior to the hearing. Ralph might want to chime in on this.
I take it by “initiated contact”, your sort of speaking in terms of who through the first punch. Unless somebody is sitting on something in regards to autopsy findings, I’ve not seen anyone claim that Trayvon’s body has any insuries other than the bullet would & bruised knuckles. In terms of a criminal case where the burden of proof lies with the state, I think the lack of any other wounds on Trayvon kind of makes claims that George physically attacked him first a DOA strategy for the prosecution.
Woops. Should be “Who threw the first punch…”
“Losing”
I agree with your perspective. I thought from the start that’s what happened. It’s just sad that the fact that Martin’s clock cleaning of Zimmerman, is going to justify the shooting. Never mind the fact that Zimmerman initiated it, no matter what he says, he could have stayed in his vehicle.
Was it illegal for Zimmerman to exit his truck? Is it illegal to ask someone you don’t recognize what he’s doing inside your gated community? Sounds like you are emotionally attached to the position the Zimmerman is guilty.
exactly
Tell me this scenario isn’t just as likely as TM jumping and assaulting Z with no provocation:
Z – “Hey you, what are you doing here?”
TM keeps walking
Z – Running up to him, “HEY! WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?”
TM – “F* Off”, keeps walking
Z – Puts hand on his shoulder to swing him round and make him face him “HEY, I’M TALKING TO YOU!”
TM – Puts the fat mall ninja in his place and gets shot for his trouble.
You can throw in a few racial slurs too, depending on how nasty you think Zimmerman is. The point is that NOBODY knows how this all started. Sure, maybe Treyvon was a wannabe thug, but you know what – he was getting some skittles from the store minding his own business and not breaking any laws. He was not loaded for bear and harassing people in the neighborhood. Period.
Does Zimmerman deserve a 2nd degree murder charge? I don’t think so. Does he need some kind of sentence? Quite possibly. He will probably walk though because only two people know what happened at the critical point and one of them is dead.
What really gets me here is the hypocrisy though – all you “don’t tread on me” types suddenly think it’s fine to tool up and start harassing random people on the street just because you don’t like the look of them. Whatever happened to the land of the free?
Just as likely, sure. But that’s not how criminal trials work. Unless the prosecution can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman went hands on first, there’s no case for *any* crime.
Do I think Zimmerman deserves some of the blame for what happened? Absolutely.
In LE terms, he had a reasonable suspicion that would allow him to talk to Martin if he were an LEO. If he were an LEO, I don’t see any way to spin this as anything other than a good shoot (an LEO can go hands on someone ignoring an order to talk to them).
But since Zimmerman’s not an LEO the question is whether he put hands on Martin before Martin began punching him, and there’s no publicly available evidence that would prove that.
All the available evidence about Martin’s personality and activities suggest he would have been id-ed in the ‘hood as a punk — someone who is quick with his mouth and his fists but nowhere near the level of a real gangsta. Chances are that some day back home in Miami he would have pissed a real gang banger and ended up as just another statistic.
So innocent until proven guilty is fine for Zimmerman, but because you think “some day back home in Miami he would have pissed a real gang banger and ended up as just another statistic” Treyvon has no right to walk the street without being accosted and shot?
And of course this is the same Zimmerman who ASSAULTED A POLICE OFFICER. How does that fit in with “all the available evidence about his personality and activities”? You think he might be “quick with his mouth and his fists” too, slick?
Armed intelligentsia – LOL! That gets funnier every time I come by.
Just demonstrating the absurdity of the your speculation about how it went down.
Nothing like a perfectly executed counter-troll to satisfy the intelect.
“satisfy the intelect”
ROFL!
Commenter, let’s assume that things played out exactly as you have it in your scenario. In that case, you have a very minor contact by Zimmerman generating an attack by Martin that leaves Zimmerman with significant injuries.
You should reexamine your assumptions if you think the response by Martin in your scenario is reasonable. Why don’t we try this instead:
Z – “Hey you, what are you doing here?”
TM keeps walking
Z – Running up to him, “HEY! WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?”
TM – “F* Off”, keeps walking
Z – Puts hand on his shoulder to swing him round and make him face him “HEY, I’M TALKING TO YOU!”
TM – “BACK OFF, MAN! Calm down! I’m just walking home from the store.” Holds up ice tea and Skittles. “See over there? That’s my Dad’s house. See this? I’m talkin’ to my girlfriend on my Bluetooth. What, baby? No, just some dude hasslin’ me. Just hold up. All right, we done here? Can I go now? Thank you. Okay, I’m back.”
Zimmerman and Martin go their separate ways. Zimmerman calls 911 to say never mind, it wasn’t the guy he thought it was, and America is spared several news cycles of really ignorant reporting.
Carlos, if Zimmerman did lay a hand on Treyvon as described in either of our scenarios then at that point he has broken several laws and physical defense is justified.
If somebody I do not know comes up to me and starts putting hands on me in a threatening manner they are going down at that point, and I would have every right to do so.
Now, once I have incapacitated them, should I continue to beat them while they are on the ground? No way. But if what happened is anywhere near like what I described then Zimmerman needs to serve some time, as it was him who initiated this. In fact the very SYG law that Zimmerman is trying to invoke will be protecting Treyvon’s actions.
Mr. C:
I’m not the one that got punked.
Right…
So your plan to defend yourself against a misdemeanor battery, a crime punishable at most by a combination of one year in jail, one year of probation, and a $1,000 fine, is to commit aggravated battery, a crime with a maximum penalty of a combination of fifteen years in prison, fifteen years probation, and a $10,000 fine.
If your claim is “he touched me, so I beat him into the ground” that’s not going to sound like self defense. That’s going to sound like you’re a psychopath who needs to be locked up for as long as the law allows.
Carlos context is everything here. We aren’t talking about a man accidentally brushing me on a crowded sidewalk in a busy downtown area full of suited yuppies.
We are talking about being stalked by an armed predator over an extended period of time, at night, when you are alone all around and there is nobody to help you.
How was Treyvon supposed to know how far this man would go? Would he stop at misdemeanor battery and unlawful restraint? Or would he go further? Was he some kind of crazy man? A serial killer?
I never said that sitting on top of them and beating them was justified, but enough punches to put them into submission certainly is and there isn’t a jury in the land that would say different. FFS just look at the SYG law – it protects Treyvon quite clearly in this case, if my hypothetical events happened that way.
Why is it that suddenly all you “don’t tread on me”, carry 5 weapons and a backup folks all of a sudden think it’s fine to let an unknown man come up and manhandle you? Is it because Treyvon is black? Because if this had been a DGU of the day article about how Treyvon defended himself against an armed man pushing him around with no legal authority you would be cheering him on.
think it’s fine to let an unknown man come up and manhandle you?
Is there any evidence at all that Zimmerman touched Martin, aside from the bruises on Martin’s knuckles?
Your argument seems to be that Zimmerman provoked Martin, called him names, and grabbed him, provoking Martin into beating up Zimmerman.
What evidence do you have that supports this scenario?
Please take into account that immediately before the shooting, Zimmerman was on the phone with 911, asking for a cop to come by. I don’t know what experience you’ve had with LE, but what I’ve seen happen is that when a cop finds two people fighting and cannot determine who started it, they both get arrested for disorderly conduct, and possibly resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, and whatever else the cop feels like filling out the paperwork for (public intoxication, disturbing the peace, etc).
Calling 911, asking for a cop to come to your location, and then starting a fight with someone is basically begging to be arrested.
I have no evidence to support my scenario, just as there is no evidence to support the other scenario – that’s the point. Only two people know what happened to kick this off and one is dead.
What I do have though is a long life of experience in which I have never heard of a mentally stable boy walking home with some skittles violently assaulting an older, physically bigger, armed man unprovoked and without motive. Have you ever heard of search a thing?
Here we have a man, Zimmerman, who has a history of violence, who was even charged with assaulting a police officer FFS, playing at being a cop with his gun. Can you REALLY not see any possibility for what I suggest happening? Really?
Sure, maybe Treyvon flipped out and just beat the snot out of Zimmerman for no reason. It’s possible. I just think it’s far more likely that the mall ninja wannabe decided he would apprehend this hoodlum himself and hold him til the police arrived, at which point he got his clock cleaned and then shot him.
Did Zimmerman fear for his life at the moment he shot? Yeah, probably. Murder 2 is a stupid charge to bring. Manslaughter though, innocent or not there IS a case to be made here, and he needs to have his day in court. He killed an innocent minor after some VERY murky events – why on earth do most people here think he should be walking free right now?
Once again, I’d like to know where ABC news is getting all this exclusive information. Especially Zimmerman’s medical information. I always thought that stuff was confidential.
More like Mike Nifong
The defense rests.
It’s really laughable that the prosecutor of George Zimmerman, who was brought into the case to give political cover to Tallahassee and pacify angry black voters, is the same person who just exposed Tallahassee and pissed off angry black voters in the Alexander case. I guess that the racial arsonists are okay with railroading “white Hispanics” but with black women, not so much. Well, that’s what they get for forgetting the parable of the scorpion and the frog.
White Hispanic is an actual category, just like black Hispanic, and Asian Hispanic.
Zimmerman is a white-black Hispanic because his great grand father was black. He is more black than Elizabeth Warren is a Cherokee. Well Warren says shes 1/32 Cherokee anyway
As for me I am half “Latino” since my mother’s family came to North America from Romania. Can’t be more latino than someone from Rome-mania!
Actually, there’s a move afoot to classify all Hispanics as white. It just shows how absurd it is to divide people up by skin tone.
Also, I’m thinking that if Zimmerman had shot a white white guy (doubling down on the white angle intentionally), the race-baiting media would have written about a white guy shot by a Hispanic, not a white Hispanic. Because that would cause more fear and hysteria, and sell more soap.
A move by whom? Hispanic is an ethnic category, which is independent from race.
It’s a really fuzzy category as well, with multiple definitions with various inclusions and exclusions.
Yeah, but most people in the USA associate Hispanic with someone that looks like a classical Mexican or Cuban. That really is not probably true. but that is the way it probably is going to go down with most people.
I am repeating myself here but what this case proves is that there are really only two real racial categories — black and white. Caucasians, Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans and even African-Americans like Allan West or Clarence Thomas are white. What is really black has defined by the race hustlers like Jackson and Sharpton and that comes down to gang bangers and welfare queens. Any other behavior is acting white. The reason the black community is so dysfunctional is that they look up to the two Revs and denigrate people like West and Thomas. The white Progressives go along because they deep down they are the real racists and successors to the Klu Klux Klan Democrats like Robert Byrd.
I have to admit, I wasn’t sure if you’d ever come right out and reveal your true colors.
Thanks for being honest.
DaveL:
I will deal with both posts here rather than clutter up the thread.
First, Pretend I called your intelligence into question.
Second, Do you think that George lost 75-100lbs in 6 weeks?
If Martin were 100lbs below Zimmerman how did he end up on top of Zimmermam beating the snot out him? That scenario itself, irrespective of who started the fight, is absurd unless Trayvon was a martial arts expert. Do you think Martin was a black belt?
You clearly do not understand either hypothesis testing or Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence. The null hypothesis, unless you are a global warming fanatic, always starts with the assumption that the anomaly you are observing is just random variation. The presumption of innocence is the equivalent in the justice system. If you want to see if there is something different then you collect data and test for significance. It the mean is sufficiently different in a statistical sense you reject the null hypothesis. In trial the prosecution presents its data (evidence) to a jury and if the jury finds the evidence compelling they reject the null hypothesis and find the defendant guilty. The twist in the Zimmerman trial is that Zimmerman is innocent if and only if Martin is guilty of assault and attempted murder. Zimmerman is guilty if and only if Martin either did nothing or only fought to protect himself from bodily harm.
Finally, I want to get to your comment here. In the modern American political environment you know when someone is mostly like “progressive” and on the losing side of an argument because they call you a racist. FYI, I said nothing that Bill Cosby and several other African-American public figures haven’t said. Blackness is defined by the race hustling “leadership” as ignorant, criminal, helpless and on welfare. Education, good behavior, self motivation and success in something other than sports is white. So I guess Cosby is a White Racist too.
You and Mr. C don’t like the evidence so you make up the order events from whole cloth complete with dialogue. All the forensic evidence and eyewitnesss point to Martin as the aggressor and Zimmerman, foolish as he may have acted, the victim. Live with it.
Dude, you’ve essentially outed yourself. You just said that blackness is defined by the behavior of gangbangers and welfare queens, and that high-achieving blacks owe their success to acting “white”. How on earth is that not a flat-out racist statement? Seriously, what exactly do you think racism is?
Here’s where you go wrong. Zimmerman is guilty if and only if the prosecution can prove Martin wasn’t guilty of assault and attempted murder. That’s the presumption of innocence. If they fail to prove that, Zimmerman isn’t guilty, but it doesn’t mean Martin was, in fact, guilty of assault and attempted murder.
Now, you never did answer why we should hold a double standard as to why Martin shouldn’t benefit from the presumption of innocence while Zimmerman does Or why we should expect Martin to act like a mugger in the ghetto absent any claim of robbery motive and given the fact his father lived in the same community as Zimmerman. Or why we it’s reasonable to believe Martin turned around 70′ from his door, alone and unarmed, to attack a larger stranger for reasons unknown?
“Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.”
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?lite
— What is intermediate range defined as?
“Intermediate” range means close enough to cause a powder tattoo, but not so close that all the powder is still clumped in a ring of blackened skin around the entrance wound. We’re talking inches.
In other words, consistent with Zimmerman’s description of the shooting.
I don’t know what happened yet. None of us do. BUT, let’s assume for a sec that Zimmerman gets off because he was flat on his back getting pounded when he fired.
If any good comes out of this, it might be a national understanding that in a fistfight, even if you didn’t start it, you don’t have a right to keep on slamming somebody into the dirt once the fight is clearly won (by you).
It appears possible that Martin did exactly that. And if so, he put Zimmerman “reasonably in fear of losing his life or suffering great bodily injury”.
Another way of looking at it is, “if this was an MMA fight, would a referree have broken it up by now?” – if the answer is “yes” then you need to stop, period, or either the downed party or somebody nearby might very well have the right to shoot you. (And yes, an MMA fight would have been stopped over a broken nose alone, guaranteed.)
This has other implications too:
* If you’re attacked while wearing a gun, you really, really don’t want to lose that fight. Because if the other guy has anger management issues, the situation is liable to end up in this same circumstance.
* That in turn means that if you’re carrying a boomthing, you also want to carry pepper spray, be damned good with your fists or carry some other non-lethal weapon. In my case I carry a large-ish double-CR123 flashlight that doubles very effectively as a Kubaton – which I’ve had at least some training in the use of.
this whole thing makes me angry now. I’m a mere armchair lawyer, but given that all of this must have been known to the prosecutor, how can they with a straight face push for murder charges? Is there some huge damning piece of evidence no one has seen yet? Otherwise I’d call for Corey to be fired for this charade which does nothing but burn money and ruin peoples lives. The only good thing to come out of this would be if Zimmerman is being exonerated by a court.
I suspect that the powers-that-be expected riots if they didn’t file charges.
This way, they’ve got some time to get ready.
Kinda sucks to be Zimmerman, tho.
Of course, this assumes that the powers-that-be are at least semi-competent, and capable of being a bit ruthless when necessary, which is not a given.
“I’d call for Corey to be fired for this charade which does nothing but burn money and ruin peoples lives”
Which ruined lives are you talking about? Zimmerman’s ruined life for being forced to actually account to a jury how he killed a minor who was walking home with some skittles? Or Treyvon’s parents, who now don’t have a son because some mall ninja with a history of assault was out playing cop with his gun?
Well, well, well. Someone’s got their mind made up.
And you base that assertion on what, exactly?
I merely stated the facts:
Zimmerman killed a minor who was walking home with some skittles.
Treyvon’s parents lost a son to a man with a history of assault who was out playing cop with his gun.
I don’t think those facts are in dispute, are they? Or am I not taking into account that Treyvon was black? That seems to be very important to a lot of you.
I hope some are still on this thread. I just read a report that said the shoot was from an “intermediate range.” What does this mean?
Also, what are we to make of Marin having just one small (1/4″ inch) abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle. How does this happen in a fight–any theories?
I’m assuming intermediate range means not “point blank” as was originally said (even though the coroner said there were powder burns on martins clothing and the wound). Given that we now hear Zimmerman had two black eyes, etc….it would seem that Martin would have more bruises on his knuckles than what is being reported.
“Intermediate” range means that the muzzle wasn’t in contact, but it was close enough to leave powder residue/tattoo marks around the entry wound.
The classification of gunshot wounds goes from “hard contact,” to “loose contact,” then “angled contact,” “near contact,” and then “intermediate.”
Previous information I’ve seen cited in the press said that Martin’s GSW showed that he was shot from about one foot away. By using the technical term “intermediate,” which sounds much further away than “close range,” the press is trying to salvage whatever they can of their narrative, which is being shredded by every new disclosure of information.
Okay. Am not sure how Martin could inflict the woulda on Martin, and not have more damage to his hands than is being reported in the autopsy. So, may I engage in some wild speculation?
Martin could have whacked Zimmerman in the back of the head with his ice tea, but not hard enough to have broken the container. Martin falls on his face and breaks his nose. Martin jumps on him but does not beat him . . . perhaps shakes him and screams threats.
Martin pushed Zimmerman who fell and broke his nose. Again, Martin Jumps on him and grabs his clothes, banging his head on the ground, causing the wounds on the back of his head.
Martin pushes Zimmerman, who falls backwards and hits his head. Martin jumps on Zimmerman. Zimmerman shoots Martin. Zimmerman realizes that he needs to make the fight seem more dangerous, so he gets a friend to pop him in the nose. He goes to the doctor the next day and has injuries confirmed and recorded.
Do any of these seem plausible?
Sorry for typos.
too much CSI my friend…I think Zimmerman exited the vehicle, a confrontation ensued, and Zimmerman got his clock cleaned and pulled his weapon. While I think his actions were boneheaded, it really makes me wonder about the wisdom of getting in a fist fight while armed…if you’re getting your butt kicked, do you pull your weapon to end the fight? to you use your weapon to prevent it from being used on you should the beating continue?
We’ve dealt with some young folks in their 20 s who came out of messes not nealry as bad this and we’ve observed that these kids who were never parented and who were handled like pets, sort of, end up thinking of and dealing with families as bunches of people who are interchangeable . You can notice if you pay attention to the postings on FB when you see 20 s somethings listing brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers whom you know for a fact are NOT their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers. It’s the Interchangeable Family Members thing at work. Absolutely destructive.
Too much CSI and not enough COMMON SENSE.
Look at the evidence photos. The ice tea can is made of aluminum, not a great weapon; hit yourself in the face with one several times… I’ll wait. See what I mean?
In the photo’s showing the wounds on zimmerman’s scalp he is wearing the same clothing as in the videos where he is being escorted into the police station, after assaults police document injuries photographically for evidence, I have first hand experience as the “victim” of an assault. If the scalp lacerations are real and documented by the police then it follows that the various bruises and the broken nose are real as well and occured during the assault.
Zimmerman declined immediate medical attention. The incident happened at night, he was taken into custody for a period of time, possibly several hours and then went to the hospital the next morning. It seems likely that he wanted to cooperate with police and get that portion of the unpleasant event out of the way, it also seems likely that he was detained early into the morning and went to the hospital after being released from police custody having cooperated fully. Without seeing the time at which he checked in this cannot be confirmed, but it is more logical than him going home, injuring himself and then going to the hospital to document additional injuries which had already been documented by the police.
Bruising does not occur after death to the point that it might otherwise. Yet it is noted that Martin had abrasions on his hands, so yeah that happens in a fight, as to how or why he didn’t have more or more serious injuries, easy; he’s dead soft tissue injuries which occur immediately prior to death are never as severe as they might otherwise be, the difference vary’s in proportion to how much blood was lost due to other trauma. Second the lacerations are on the back of Zimmerman’s head in photos, because as was stated by Zimmerman and a witness Zimmerman’s head was repeatedly slammed into the pavement…. so Martin accomplished this with an open hand or a grip on Zimmerman’s hair or other methods any number of which would allow him to slam somone’s head more effectively than by punching them…
Just remember the media might not lie, but they are certainly very selective in how they tell the truth.
Inconsistency is Key.
The devil’s in the details…
etc. ad infinitum.
My wife accuses me of lacking grace. She’s probably right so I don’t feel guilty about rubbing things in.
The latest evidence dump from Angela Corey’s offices contains the eyewitness report. He describe Martin beating Zimmerman “martial arts” style. If Martin took any martial arts then his assault on Zimmerman is considered equivalent to assault with a deadly weapon whcih justifies Zimmerman’s use of deadly force in return. Game over for the prosecution.
But wait! there’s more!
From the 911 call:
” We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about.”
Martin tested positive for THC in the autopsy.
No Duh he was suspended from school for having a Baggie that the school administration thought formerly contained marijuana wasn’t he? Smoking a joint does not a Thug make. In my predominately white private school kids from some of the richest families in American history smoked alot of weed don’t recall them being thugs, maybe corporate thugs now!
Ummm… does the phrase “innocent until proven guilty” ring any bells. The most damning thing about all this is the following –
“…accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman”
I can’t remember the last time I saw someone described as an accused murderer, hell they didn’t even describe Casey Anthony that way, it was always “accused” or “alleged” killer; and when we get right down to it accused and alleged carry wildly different meanings, not that I’m a lawyer, but I’m reasonably certain that there needs to be someone with first hand knowledge of the crime who is not an accessory to said crime who “accuses” you of it, i.e. a witness. Whereas when a DA or Federal authority brings a case against you then it has been “alleged” that you have …. (this that or the other thing.)
If I’m wrong someone with an actual legal background please tell me.
As to the “expert” well ok, he’s an expert in trauma medicine, who didn’t examine the patient in any way physically but rather is looking at photos and video (enhanced video) wouldn’t it be more relevant to have a photography/imaging expert who was familiar with the capabilites of the equipment used to capture the video of Zimmerman or the photo’s documenting his injuries testify as to whether or not we could expect to see wounds of X size on system Y given capability Z?
Finally IMO simple observation leads you to conclude that the photographs of Zimmerman which document his injuries were taken by the police. I conclude this for two reasons, number one Zimmerman is clearly wearing the same clothes in both the video and the photos of his injuries. Number two in support of argument one I work in a hospital and know that photos are only routinely taken at the request of police, and then by a police photographer for evidentiary purposes. Number three, having recently been assaulted I know for a fact that police photograph your injuries for evidentiary purposes…
Feel free to draw your own conclusions, but anyone who’s ever seen “high resolution” or “enhanced” security footage will be perfectly aware of what that means… I’m just sayin’…
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