I’ve been experimenting with a Bladetech 5.11 retention holster for our T&E (Testing and Evaluation) Gen4 Glock 19. When I told Eddie at AFS that I was carrying the Mass-compliant 10-round 9mm G19 in the new holster, he freaked me right the f’ out. “Robert do me a favor,” he said. “Will all your guns to me. You’re gonna use the 19 and you’re gonna get yourself killed.” First, I was startled to hear that it’s only a matter of time before I use my gun to defend my life. Second, I thought it was all about shot placement. Nine millimeter vs. 45; is it really that big a deal? I called the rabbi. He went all empirical on me. “Here’s what you do . . .”

“Shoot both guns as fast as you can. To the point where you’re not running the gun; the gun’s running you. Then compare the groups.”

[HTML1]

I ran a MA-compliant mag through both Glocks at five yards as fast as I possibly could, sight picture be damned. In my defense (so to speak), I haven’t been to the range in well over a week. And the light was bad. And . . . I missed the paper with BOTH guns two times out of ten. 

Shooting the 9mm G19, I hollowed-out a 6.5″ group. Shooting the .45-caliber G30SF, I perforated the paper with a 6.5″ group. As the Brits would say, it was six of one, half a dozen of the other. In terms of accuracy, there was nothing in it.

Which means I might as well carry the .45-caliber G30SF to gain the advantages of larger bullet size (bigger holes) and lack of penetration (slower bullet). Remembering that the Bay State restricts me to 10-round magazines (anything more instantly makes me a dangerous criminal), so I can’t use/carry/think about the G19’s 15-round mag.

Obviously, your mileage may vary. But it’s well worth considering moving up to a .45 if there’s no trade-off in combat (i.e. Minute of Bad Guy) accuracy. Meanwhile, it’s back to the range. Two rounds off-target at five yards is two too many for me, even when firing as if I’d forgotten everything I learned about slowing down and aiming.

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

100 COMMENTS

  1. Great test! Yes, the test showed that you can control both guns equally well. See what happens when you do the same shooting with on hand…and off hand.

    • I concur, repeat the test as above. I find the 19 and 30 fit my hand about equally well and they are my favorite two Glocks. I think I regain sight picture slightly faster with the 19, 9mm is cheaper to shoot, and the loaded pistol with five extra rounds was 3-4 oz lighter (and a bit thinner), so I carry the 19.

      Anyway, love both guns and I think in MA I would make the same decision….maybe.

      • I put calipers on both guns frames they are identical in thickness, width and length of pull. Only difference was the G30SF is a tad shorter by about 1/4″
        When the magazine is inserted they are equal grip length.

  2. If I were limited by foolish laws, such as you are, then I’d carry a .45 as well. Otherwise, I’ll take the higher capacity of the 9mm.

    Of course, I’ve been really tempted by the capacity of those new .9mms.

    • I’ve been really tempted by the capacity of those new .9mms.

      Which is still only ten rounds in Massachusetts. The standard magazine holds 437,856 rounds, but there’s also an extended capacity assault magazine available through the interwebs.

    • I have botha springfield xdm 9 compact (19 round extended mags as thats the reason i bought it) and a springfeild xd 45 acp with 14 rds. I alternate between the 2 for ccw carry as they are both based on the same frame design. I understand both camps of thought and in all the years ive had them I still cant decide which I prefer. I like the 230 grain bullets in my 45 but I like the 20 rounds in the 9 just as much. Guess Ill just have to get a 2nd serpa holster 😉

  3. But what about Mr. Yeager?

    To refresh, if you don’t want to bother with the video:
    All guns should be Glocks.
    All Glocks should be 9mm.
    All Glock 9mm should be 19’s.

    It can’t be that he’s… wrong… could it?

  4. I agree with Eddie (he knows what he’s talking about) and I’ve owned a few 9’s and got rid of them all. I’ve always loved 45’s and the recoil isn’t near as bad as some people make it out to be.

    • I actually find the recoil of .45ACP more pleasant than the 9 mm or the muzzle flash of the .357. Am I the only person with that reaction?

      • I am the same way, but I always figured it was since I learned on and always shot 45s. (Ignoring .22 target pistols) The recoil from a .45 is what a handgun should feel like to me, so other calibers are always weird to my hand.

    • Pistols that do not meet the AG’s phony “safety” regulations are legal to own, possess or transfer between owners, but cannot be sold by or transferred through FFLs. The regs are “consumer protection” regulations. No, really. Stop laughing, dammit.

      The so-called “assault weapons ban” goes much further. Mere possession of a banned gun or magazine is a crime unless the gun or mag was in-state prior to the AWB (and you better have some documentation to prove it). If the gun or mag in question is grandfathered, the owner can own it, use it or sell it, and it can be handled by an FFL.

      With me so far?

      Now, if someone has an unrestricted class A LTC (license to carry), the licensed person can own, possess, shoot and transfer so-called “high capacity weapons and feeding devices.”

      Still with me?

      No Glocks since early Gen3 can be sold by an FFL in MA because Glock won’t go through the BS to get the guns qualified. There’s an exception for LEO sales, of course. LEOs can buy new Glocks because, well . . . I don’t know why. They just can. I guess their safety isn’t the AG’s concern.

      Thus, if someone from out of state has a nonresident MA LTC-A, they can bring their new Glock to MA. But if there’s a new “high capacity” mag in there, well, Welcome to Massachusetts. Now go to jail.

      On the other hand, if the same guy with the same gun and the same license were to buy a Massachusetts pre-ban hi-cap mag and stick it in said gun, well then, they are golden.

      If this makes sense to you, please leave the room. And the rest of you — as you were.

      • “(and you better have some documentation to prove it)”

        They really have a guilty until proven innocent standard of proof here?

        • Yes. No. Well, think of it this way. The statute bans “assault weapons.” There’s an exception for grandfathered guns and mags, but you have to show that you qualify for the exception.

          See how they did that?

  7. I was lucky enough to find a pre-ban 13 rounder for my G23 that didn’t cost an arm and a leg. Of course, my back-up mags are only 10…

  8. The Rabbi put forth a test to which more people should pay some heed.

    Putting aside all the technical factors of shot placement, mag capacity, etc, the truth is that when the poop hits the propeller blades, you’re being silly to worry about the 8th, 9th or… successive shots. The first and possibly second shots are the ones that will count most, and in this regard, one should care enough to send the very best available option downrange.

    • The retired TX DPS officer in my Sunday School class was asked one time what the value was in having a the 3rd through nth shot.
      His reply was the first two were the important rounds. All the rest were to keep the bad-guy’s head(s) down while you got back behind cover.
      Since he has been in a DGU more than once, and I’ve not ever been there, I’ll have to take his word for it. But I think it does say something about making the first shot count.
      We might argue that the quick shot & miss can make the BG not shoot accurately, but where the heck is that “miss” going? It may be a situational call – but if the objective is to stop the BG as soon as possible, then taking the extra 0.5 second to get it round on target seems like a wise thing to me.

      • taking the extra 0.5 second to get it round on target seems like a wise thing to me.

        You might be right, but then again, giving the bad guy the extra 0.5 second to get his round on target seems like a scary thing to me.

      • Until the bad guy is out of the fight, EVERY shot counts.

        Misses also count…just ask the prosecutor as he tries you for hitting an innocent bystander.

        • When was the last time that there was a legal DGU with “collateral damage” and the shooter was prosecuted? Not sued. Prosecuted.

          • A police officer in Bryan, Texas, hit an innocent bystander with a stray round during a justifiable DGU last year. He retired and managed to avoid prosecution.

            A transit officer in Houston hit an innocent bystander with a stray round in a justifiable DGU last year also. The person who was shot sustained a permanent injury, loss of function in the right arm. The Houston paper did not report on what happened to the officer.

  9. @Zealot I live in mass and these laws are dangerous because most people can’t figure them out. I can own a 4th gen glock but really can’t WTH.

    • The real danger is that the only way I have found to get an FN 5.7 is through inheritance as I can’t find any private sellers. It makes my father a little nervous.

      • I think Masterpiece Arms is coming out with a MAC-11 clone in 5.7 for $500. Might not be MA compliant, but hey, you can buy two for what a FiveseveN costs.

    • I too live in MA and agree about how absurd it all is. I have asked police friends the same question and gotten different answers and going to the AG is a joke. But at least our taxes are nice and high am I right?

  10. I’m amazed that anyone can miss at five yards, even at rapid fire.

    This is as good or silly a test as any, I suppose. To me, in Texas, I’m more interested in concealability in the hot summer weather. A .45 is usually just going to be too big. But if I lived up north where layers of clothing are reasonable all year round I’d be more interested in a larger caliber. But then I’d be more interested in control and accuracy. I haven’t shot a .45 in almost 25 years but when the USMC switched to 9mm I was much pleased by the improved accuracy. This might be misplaced appreciation because our M1911’s were in very humble shape.

    • our M1911′s were in very humble shape.

      Same for my Army training experience. It took buying my own new albeit nothing fancy 1911 to finally get past my negative bias.

    • I’m amazed that anyone can miss at five yards, even at rapid fire.

      Me too. I’m a good (not great) regular shooter. Just goes to show.

      • And to be sure, I meant that as a comment on how hard it can be to control a pistol sometimes, not as an insult.

    • Skyler not to pick on you, but I hear this a lot from 9mm shooters:

      “A .45 is usually just going to be too big.”

      There are plenty of small guns chamber in .45ACP that are the same size as 9mm guns. If you don’t like the cartridge and prefer 9mm, fine, by all means stick to what works for you, but people seem to always think .45 = full size 1911. I’m not saying this is the case with you, you just said a comment that I have heard all to often. I’ve had people be utterly surprised when shown a sub-compact Glock or Springfield V10 in .45ACP.

  12. I have often thought that if stuck with a limited magazine capacity; that a larger caliber gun might be advantageous.

  13. This video illustrates the dangers of the spray and pray philosophy. Even if you have 17 rounds it won’t last very long shooting at that rate.Thats why one must practice to hit what you aim at, by shooting slowly. By shooting slowly you get better at hitting what you aim at so as to instinctively shoot ‘fast’ by just shooting at your normal slow pace faster, if that makes sense.

    Rapid fire may be fun to do but it translates into a waste of ammo no matter which way you cut it, which is why gang bangers continually hit everyone except the scumbag they were trying to kill. As for chooing .45 ACP over 9mm, I know which gun id rather have if a genie told me id need a pistol at some undetermined point in the future.

    • Rest assured I do not consider spray and pray a suitable self-defense strategy. I was shooting as fast as I could to get a feel for each gun’s controllability in a worst-case adrenalin overload screw-up scenario.

      • Like the analysis, but I’ll stick with my 9mm… not because I disagree with anything in your research, but because I already own the G19 and I live in a state with no mag limit. I don’t want to drop another 550 on a 40 cal piece… Plus, the 9mm ammo is priced to shoot…

  14. The Glock 19 would be advantageous in states that allow for magazines above 10 rounds. I use the G19 17 rounders, primarily because they are a little bit longer and stick out the bottom, but this is extremely useful because i can grip the magazine better when reloading.

    In states that ban “assault magazines” LMAO (stupid f–kin term), the 45 would certainly be advantageous. If you can shoot both of them equally well under stress, then carry the 45.

    “When I told Eddie at AFS that I was carrying the Mass-compliant 10-round 9mm G19 in the new holster, he freaked me right the f’ out. “Robert do me a favor,” he said. “Will all your guns to me. You’re gonna use the 19 and you’re gonna get yourself killed.””

    Ill say right now this is a bit disingenuous. If you properly train and place your shots where they need to go (the “A” zone, upper chest or center of head), the only person getting killed is the assailant. In reality, the 45 ACP is only marginally better, if at all, than a 9mm in terms of stopping a assailant.

    The 9mm is such a terrible round, that even military and police special operations forces use 9mm’s as side arms (and 45’s in addition) and sub machine guns. Utterly fascinating.

    • Dex, What military special forces that use a 9mm are you referring to? Here is the listing of US special operations groups and their handguns that I know of:

      Kimber ICQB (.45 ACP) USMC MARSOC
      MEU(SOC) pistol (a modified 1911) (.45 ACP) MEU(SOC)
      Mk 23 Mod 0 (H & K) (.45 ACP) USSOCOM
      M1911A1 (.45 ACP) Army
      Heckler & Koch HK45 (.45 ACP) Naval Special Warfare

      Also most major city’s police SWAT Teams and the FBI HRT also use a .45ACP.

      As for sub-machine guns, grouping them in with handguns is comparing apples to oranges.

      If you are happiest/most comfortable using a 9mm then that is the correct caliber for you to carry. I won’t argue against your choice, it’s not my decision to make.

        • I know they started using the P226 in the 80s, but I thought they had dropped it for the HK45. They may not have, I don’t keep up with anything SEAL since 90% of what you will find is made up info from SEAL wannabes.

          Edit: Looks like they use both best I can tell.

  15. The video shows that the .45 was waaaaay more flippy than the nine, and yet your accuracy was the same. I never would have expected that.

    • The flip comes back down faster than most people shoot. With a 1911, training for IDPA-type shooting, that is a major skill to learn: How fast does your barrel ….as you hold it with your gun and your standard load…come back on target? Todd Jarrett teaches a nice bit on that. 2.5 lb trigger and a good grip and things can really speed up. I definitely can shoot a G36 (6+1) .45 with +P faster (at the same accuracy) than a Kahr 9. Go figure. It has something to do with their special plastic…

    • Its all about how well you are able to control the muzzle rise. That’s the entire reason that I created that drill.

      I tell people to carry the gun they can control best. if there was a marked reduction in the size of the 9mm group, I would have suggested RF carry the 9mm. Since there is not a difference between the two calibers, I would not hesitate in recommending the 45. If you are limited to 10 round capacity, the 45 is a better choice. If there is no capacity limit, the 9 may offer advantages such as higher capacity and quicker split times between shots depending on the shooter.

      • Trivia for which I have no data: I wonder if, on the civilian street, faster splits are actually advantageous with < 11 rounds. I suppose I'm thinking "better to shoot pairs and conserve ammo slightly." This has no bearing on your test, just on the 'splits' issue.

        • I subscribe to the adage of putting as much hurt on the attacker as fast as you can. The longer you take to stop the attack, the more time the attacker has to hurt you.

          Considering how fast I can shoot, I do run the risk of emptying my full-size mag faster than a body can fall down 🙂

  16. I didn’t read all the comments, so someone may have already mention this. With the 45 round being 2x+ heavier the penetration will be superior and more accurate over greater distance. My duty weapon is a 40, split between stopping power (45) and firepower (9mm).

    • For MA residents, every town is different. Some police chiefs issue, some issue restricted permits, some don’t issue at all. All depends on where you live.

      The state handles non residents. I did not have a problem getting mine, nor renewing, but I have had one for about 25 years.

    • As the rabbi noted, some towns are almost “shall issue.” Others issue, but with restrictions. Some don’t issue at all. It’s a real crapshoot.

      When it comes to the MA nonres permit, it seems that if the applicant has a permit in his home state and the homes state’s requirements meet or exceed the MA requirements, then MA will issue a nonres permit.

      It’s also interesting that the MA requirements aren’t very strict. For example, there’s a four-hour class and no shooting test. Just about the only difference between MA and FL is that MA has a good system for checking mental hospital records.

  18. Carrying 10 rounds of 9mm is suicidal? Eddie needs to calm down. If you thought it was ok to carry a 2 shot derringer, THEN I could see freaking the f’ out.

    I’d go with the .45, but that’s because I like .45 better. Not because carrying 10 rounds of 9mm is suicidal (If I thought that was true, I wouldn’t carry a 5 shot .38 on occasion).

    • Even then a 2 shot derringer is better than nothing. A 45 Long Colt derringer in a small ziplock is my beach gun. Not much room for anything else in board shorts and sandals when walking around a beach town.

  20. Was “as fast as I possibly could” faster with the 9mm or the .45? If it takes a second longer to unload the .45, it’s not a valid test at all.

  21. After reading this test, I just went into the range and did it myself.

    My results were NOT the same as that at all. I can group a lot better with my GLOCK 17 than I can with the ranges sample GLOCK 21.

    And to everyone who preaches the idea that “You wont need more than 3 (Or what ever) shots, the rest dont count” let me ask you a question. Why dont you just go ahead and carry 4 rounds in your magazine? You never know. Ammo can be really usefull.

    • Awesome! Glad to see the drill was useful. Now you know that the 17 is better for you!

      No one who has been in a gunfight has ever commented that they wished they had less ammo!

    • Good. You now know that you are carrying what is most likely the best pistol for you. That, and the skills to use it, are more important than the number printed on the casing.

  22. Once upon a time, I was at the range, refreshing my CCW skills, I got some unsolicited “advice” about how my little Ruger LCR loaded with .38 Spl +P Gold Dot was all but going to bouce off the crack head I might use it against. It was put upon me that “real men” carry .45’s, and that a Glock 21 was was I needed. So after about 5 min of being told that I was practically unarmed. I quietly replied “well, I find the size of my penis to be adequate, and so feel completely comfortable defending myself with a .38.” This guy flipped the fudge out, to the point where the range master tossed him out, less he tried to shoot me.

  23. “Which means I might as well carry the .45-caliber G30SF to gain the advantages of larger bullet size (bigger holes) and lack of penetration (slower bullet).”

    Except that isn’t the extent of it. 9mm is cheaper. Cheaper ammo = more practice time. More practice time (assuming you’re practicing the right things, of course,) means better shot placement.

    (Leastways, that’s my mileage on this. Yours may not be the same.)

    • True, but things my life depend on are not areas that I like to cut cost on. To your point, maybe a .40 caliber and also a 9mm barrel for range time would be a good compromise for someone who wants more than a 9mm, but is on a tight budget. That way you are still practicing with the same gun.

      • I prefer to practice as I play. And I haven’t had many volunteers to stand at the business end of a 9mm or .40 cal. pistol. Again, YMMV.

  24. Whoa. It looks like Robert unloaded ten shots from the 9mm but only nine shots from the .45. So his hit ratio was actually better with the .45 (8/9) than with the 9mm (8/10).

    I don’t have a stopwatch so I couldn’t time the sequences.

    • He also shoots the G30SF all the time.

      Hand timed at 2.5sec for 10 shots on the G19 (0.25sec/shot), and 2.27sec for 9 shots on the G30 (0.25 sec/shot). Call it a draw. I am decently impressed by both the speed and control on the G30. Must be his massively developed forearms!

      Who knew we’d micro-analyze the video. It is a very interesting experiment and thanks to Rabbi for suggesting it.

  26. One upon a time, I was at the range doing some CCW practice with my Ruger LCR. Just then, the tacticool gentlemen next to me butted in with some unsolicited advice. I was told at great length why my LCR was worthless, my .38 Spl +P would all but bounce off the crack heat I might use them against, and how “real men” use a .45 ACP. It was pressed upon me that I could solve all that was wrong with my obviously flawed character if I just bought and carried a Glock 21. After a solid 5 min of this particular nonsense, I quietly and calmly replied with: “I feel the size of my penis is entirely adequate and therefore have no problem defending myself with a .38.” The tacticool gentleman proceeded to flip the fudge out, and pitched such a hissy fit, he was tossed off the range before he up and shot someone.

  27. I was just going to read these posts for their entertainment and educational value, and then “ST” had to push my button.

    This response is in no way meant to offend, nor is it a judgement of one’s skill, but….

    I no longer shoot competitively, but the knowledge and learning methods are still intact.

    If you want to learn how to shoot fast, you have to practice shooting fast.

    Slow fire practice won’t translate into faster fire when you want to.

    Simply if you want to play in the “Big Leagues” you can’t practice “T-ball”.

    I was being mentored by a friend that’s an ISPC Grand Master, and if you haven’t seen one of these guys shoot, you won’t believe how good they are.

    He would shoot sub-seven second, 10 shot groups, that were well under 2″ @ 25 yards as AIMED FIRE.

    In 2005 I shot 32,000 practice rounds, and 25% of that was almost as fast as I could pull the trigger. My aimed fire became 10 – 12 seconds for a 10 shot string, and was about as good as I could shoot.

    That was 200 – 300 rounds at a time, 3 or 4 times a week.

    If you practice slow, speeding up will only make you miss faster.

    High round count practice is exactly how you learn to shoot fast.

  29. I’ve personally found the Glock 36 (single stack version of the 30) to be very soft shooting for a .45 ACP. Maybe not quite 9mm soft, but almost. So I’m not surprised by the outcome of the experiment in this article.

    • You are crazy. I’m not recoil shy at all, but the G36 is like a jackhammer in hand when firing. The G30 is way more manageable.

      • Questions concerning what is manageable carry little value in this debate. Shooters are of different physical and hand size, strength, and all have different hand/ eye characteristics. What is difficult for one may be comfortable and appropriate for another. Any other approach is merely for the sake of having an unproductive argument. This is particularly true when discussing consealability.

  30. The best argument I’ve ever heard in the .45 vs. 9mm debate came from a grizzled TMCM (Master Chief Torpedoman for you wing-wipers): In a safety lecture someone asked him about 9 v. .45 and his (I *hope* joking) reply was: “The .45 is better.” When pressed for more detail he said “Because I’ve been shot with both and the .45 hurts more.”

  32. I like to carry the Glock 20SF-it absorbs the 10mm recoil very effectively.
    There are 15 round and 10 round mags available-I carry interstate under HR218 and while HR218 credential holders are exempt from mag capacity and”restricted”ammo laws I’d as soon avoid problems with LEO’s who haven’t received proper training.
    I figure with 10+1 rounds of 10mm,I have enough to deal with whatever comes up.
    I carry either Winchester 175 gr Silvertips or Hornady 180’s.

  33. As I shoot twice weekly going through an average of 100 rnds per session I have actually found the PERFECT firearm for me. It is compact, easily controlled at rapid fire, fits easily into my hand, and I have confidence in my skills, so that I know I will stop any attack that comes my way.
    Now before I tell you learned gentlemen what it is, I will tell what it is not. Not Glock O:(, not S&W O:(, Ruger O:( (?), nope. One is a Colt, the other a Sig Sauer.
    Not .45 nor 9mm O:(. What oh what could it be? Drum roll please, it is, (Are you ready for this?) the big bad .380. Thats right all you bad a_ _es! A little .380!
    It is controllable in rapid fire, it fits right into my hand, I can carry extra mags discreetly, in a mini-mag light pouch, without drawing undue attention in public.
    And yes it will take at least 3 rounds to put the bad guy down, but I will be on target, putting my rounds where I want them, and I can carry two of them if I want. The Sig p238, and the Colt Govt. Model are like shooting .22’s. Virtually no recoil! Unlike All the rest of the web biters out there in that caliber. They don’t kick like Walthers, Bersa, et al. Light weight, easily carried, and on target.
    As I must shoot one handed they, for me, are the perfect carry piece.

  34. Now try out the next logical step, the Glock 29sf, 10mm power with the exact same size, capacity and just .7 ounces heavier.

  35. Likely 115gr 9mm, fast but little ‘dwell’ inside the target because of it.

    Switching to 147gr 9mm (slower bullet, more dwell time) will likely provide more ‘impact’ on a selected target.

  36. I’ve shot both of these too, though not in a deliberate test as here.

    I found it took appreciably longer to get the 30 back on target & that the recoil was much sharper than that from a 1911 or the Glock 19.
    I’ll admit I didn’t like the 19 either, as the Glock grip angle is all wrong for my natural point of aim.

  37. I struggle with this decision as well. 15 rounds just sounds attractive, but there is a big controlability deference between all Glock 9mm pistols. The 17 is the best as I was surprised at the increased felt recoil of the G19 which was disappointing. The 26? FORGET IT!!!

    The G30 on the other hand has almost no difference in felt recoil when comparing it to the G21. I only wish that the G30’s grip extended further like the G19. The G30 is also in a category of it’s own by being the most unique Glock; it is like a hybrid of a baby Glock and medium sized (G19/ 23), while it is definatley a medium size, with a tad more gurth, but has a baby Glock grip design. Still, even with my large hands my pinky has a good place to rest and shooting is a pleasure!

  38. Another thing to consider as far as the 9 vs. 45 debate is that the 9mm is literally like the 357 magnum of its class compared with its 9mm predecessor variants. The 9mm parabellum is a high pressure round. It is the most popular cartridge used amongst criminals. People do die from 9mm bullets all the time.

    That being said, I’m not sure whether to feed into the idea of speed and energy into a target (hydrostatic shock). Supposedly hydrostatic shock happens when a certain speed is reached when a bullet hits a target. However by not believing this one would have to forget about the 357 magnum and stick with 9mm for every purpose.

    It is equally annoying to hear people emphasize “slower” when talking about the speed of a 45acp. I’m sorry but 850 feet per second is pretty fast. I wonder how much that is in miles per hour? I also wonder what would hurt more; a 90 mph baseball, or a non-fatal hit from a 45acp traveling at 850 fps that is burning hot?

    Supposedly the .45 was created for a reason (Philippines), but from what I understand it wasn’t to gain performance from the 9mm, but rather a .38 caliber round. Then I think about German ingenuity and design; it just seems like they have always had a reason for what they do while also producing successful products that work well. I think the careless design and introduction of the m-16 in Vietnam is a testament to how America introduces products (it’s flawed/ not ready for use, but I can influence someone to push my idea through). Granted the m-16 family of rifles have undergone reliability overhauls year after year since its introduction (as well as a day late and a dollar short), but this one example doesn’t leave me very trusting to why things are introduced within the U.S. Anyways, the 9mm works and works well as I am sure it has had the necessary testing. It became a favorite of most of the world probably without NATO.

    • Just wanted to add my experience with the Glock 30. The double spring (I think unique in the 30) along with the ammunition used (I use Magsafe at 1450 FTPS which not only is really fast but the recoil is much lower and the weight of the full magazine is noticeable).
      Anyone who has not tried this ammo really should try it, not cheap but I think a life is well worth it. It is also designed to not over penetrate yet it expands once it has entered the target ever through 2″ of clothing.
      It is worth checking their Website for the information based on the testing done and the pricing. The light weight of the bullet (less than 100grain for a .45 Cal. and the Glock works just fine my 30 has never jammed on me.
      Hope this is useful for some.
      Tom

  39. Having both the G30 and G19, I can tell you without any hesitation that I can hit more accurately with greater speed with the G19. Same when comparing SIGs–I’m faster and more accurate with the P229 than the P220. Granted, I like the .45 Auto better than the 9mm but when it comes to my own abilities there’s no getting around The Way Things Are. The icing on the cake is that I don’t have to comply with an ill-conceived magazine capacity limit at home.

  40. see potsynolls above…

    If you want to figure how fast a bullet is traveling you multiply it’s speed in feet per second, (fps) by 3600. to get miles per second, and divide by 5280 to get miles per hour, (mph).

    During the Moro rebellion of the Philippine-American war in the early 1900’s, it was found that the issued pistols in .38 caliber were requiring multiple hits to stop the Moro warriors, and were proving to be not enough to prevent the killing of the targeted officers.

    The older .45LC “Single Action Army” pistols that had been decommissioned were tried and were found to provide the “1 shot stop” that the military was looking for at that time.

    The U.S. Military was looking for a replacement cartridge and through prior experience and testing on cadavers and animal remains in the Chicago stockyards, resulting in a finding that the .45 was the most effective pistol caliber.

    Colt was working on a semi-auto pistol / cartridge for U.S. Military trials in .41 caliber at that time. Requests were made to develop a cartridge in .45 caliber. That cartridge became the .45ACP, (Automatic Colt Pistol).

    The .45ACP was to provide a more modern cartridge that would stop a man, literally in his tracks”, at a time when suicidal attackers proved that with determination, focus, and a few seconds, they were highly effective at killing officers, often in broad daylight.

    It is still well documented and respected that
    1.) An average attacker at 21′, with a knife, can stab you before you draw your weapon.
    2.) A .38 caliber isn’t a decisive fight stopper, and often requires multiple “center mass” hits to affect the attacker.

    Note:
    The .38 Special measure .357″ across and usually weigh about 158 gr and has approx. 770 fps and 208 ft/lbs of energy .

    The 9mm Parabellum measures .355″ across, and usually weighs about 124 gr., and has approx. 1200 fps and 382 ft/lbs of energy.

    The .45ACP measures .452″ across, weighs about 230 gr. and travels at approx. 835 fps. for 356 ft/lbs. of energy.

    The M-16 was / is a better than “fairly decent” rifle, but was never designed to be shot dirty.

    In their wisdom, the “old school” powers within the U.S. Military decided to make use of several hundred tons of surplus or reclaimed machine-gun powder and have it made into the standard issue ammunition distributed to the troops in Vietnam.

    The M-16 was issued without cleaning or lubricating supplies, either of which would cause fouling stoppages in short order.

    After perhaps tens of thousands of injuries and deaths, of soldiers with fouled, non-functioning weapons, did anyone see the light and correct those problems.

    More of someone with more authority that knowledge, making decisions that cost someone else dearly.

    If operated within design parameters, it works well. It just wasn’t ever designed to kill, but to wound. We don’t leave our fallen or injured behind, many of our enemies do even today.

  41. If you live in a state with 10 round limit then why not g26.One of the best shooting guns. Not limited? g19 all day . And the new g30s is even more similar to the 19 but is harder to shoot than the 30sf because of the lighter slide. Now glock has a 380 called 42 and I held it and loved it. They are all better than not carrying a gun.

  42. If you think .38 ammo is not effective, look up the picture of Lee Oswald as he gets hit in the side(.38) point blank range. Drops like a sack of potatoes. RFK was taken out by a .22 and Reagan almost lost his life to a .22 round. John Lennon(.38) Bernard Getz used a .38 to take out multiple attackers. I think the older readers on the forum will take all this caliber stuff with a grain of salt. Also, if you do the research, the Moro’s were difficult to drop because they wore bamboo protective gear and old Spanish helmets in addition to being loaded up on drugs.

  43. I agree with all the above. Partial to a 45 and may swap my 19 but not concerned. Love them both. Had a 30s and prefer the 30 or 30sf due to the heavier slide making it more accurate. Probably better than I can shoot. Anyway I have always been a gun swapper and got to love glocks in the last year at age 74. Had 1911 and love them too. Big fat slow moving bullet rules. End of story IMO>

  44. i considered the Glock 19 until the Blue label program would only give me the Glock 30 SF. With the gosh 3.5 tripper puller., I’ll take the head shot a seven yards. If I am more than 7 yards from my principal, I need to be shot

Comments are closed.