TTAG Benelli and Walther

By Michael Holderer

The scenario: a major disaster has hit your region of the country. There’s been significant infrastructure damage in your area and surrounding states. You estimate things won’t get better for 30-60 days. Supplies of food, water and fuel are at critical levels. Emergency broadcasts are reporting some incidents of civil unrest nearby. Police are tied down taking care of their own families and dealing with only the highest priority incidents.  If you had to make a choice between a Benelli M2 shotgun with 50 shells or a suppressed Walther P22 with 200 rounds…which gun would you grab?

 

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139 COMMENTS

  1. Walther P22. Easier to conceal, can use it to shoot small game with and is as intimidating as the M2 when it has the suppressor on it.

  4. The 22. Lots of Squirrels and rabbits around where I live. Not my preferred fare, but a bit of quietly obtained protein here and there might be a real difference maker. Not ideal for defense, but could be used for that if you are unable to avoid unwelcome attention.

  5. I think it we were truly apocalyptic then I would go the the quiet Walther p22 and 2000 rounds. I don’t think that 4 bricks would be unmanageable in a shoot and scoot environment. I think the M2 would be too heavy and not enough ammo. Now if were talking Zombies then that would be another thing.

  6. The Benelli.

    What sold it is the civil unrest.

    A shotgun can take most game, assist in urban foraging (appropriating food/meds) and protect.

    The .22 handgun is just OK at the first, totally insufficient for the latter two.

    YMMV

  7. The types of shotgun shells matter. Not knowing, I would take the suppressed P22. You can hunt and defend yourself without making a lot of noise.

    • Completely agree, that’s what killed the shotgun for me, maybe 25 shells of #4 bird and 25 shells of 00buck and we’d be talkin.

  8. I’d take the Walther. If need be I can peg the critters that often wander into my backyard for food if it gets that bad. I can unscrew the suppressor and have it on me if I need to go out for something. And I can keep it ready for home defense, as despite some disparaging comments 22LR is still effective enough at taking down 2-legged predators.

  9. depends on a lot of other factors…

    How much food / water storage do you have? Where do you live? Are the neighbors of like mind? Are you bugging in or out?

    Without knowing these things, I guess the shotgun, plenty of positive aspects to the .22 tho… both? lol!

  10. Interesting question. Both could provide one with game and security (OK .22 not the best choice but in a pinch it’s better than nothing). I suppose I’d take the gauge. Rather have some more firepower.

  13. The shotgun. Need it to provide security for my group, and it’s big, intimidating, and means business.

  15. Shotgun. Can hunt and defend with it and the benelli has reliability that a rimfire handgun doesn’t have. I had a p22. they’re ammo sesitive and malfunction prone. Having the advantage of quiet doesn’t balance the disadvantages.

    Now, make it a supressed rifle and we’ll talk.

    • Agreed, jwm. Even with high velocity ammo mine fails to cycle fully frustratingly often. I’m going to try something even more high velocity and see how that goes, but until then I wouldn’t trust the thing for anything important.

  16. Shotgun – With civil unrest, this isn’t the time for subtlety. I’d be more worried about a mob trying to take what my family already has stored. The Benelli’d get my point across faster than the Walther.

    As far as meat goes, we have horses. A 12 gauge will put one down more humainly than a .22.

  18. NO, I already have, Mossberg 12G., Winchester 30-30, Remington 30 06,
    ATI 1911 45ACP, 22cal 1911, 22cal Colt Challenger, 25cal Browning Brownie,
    22cal Ruger bearcat, 22cal Marlin article II, 22cal Marlin semi auto.
    13,000 Rounds 22cal, 1,000 45ACP, Enough 30-30/30 06, Plus Reloading Equipment…
    I am ready….

  22. To expand on my comment “What sold it is the civil unrest”

    If a band of hungry, desparate people start beating down my door/attacking me outside, 6 12ga shells of *any* kind is better than 10 rounds in an ammo-sensitive rimfire.

    • True. I read the question like MattG below, and pictured myself rounding up the family, grabbing bug out bags, and taking to the woods (which I can access with a hike of a couple miles from my house). If there was serious unrest, and I can expect it to be over in 2 months, that’s what I would prefer to do. Why tangle with mobs of crazies when you can enjoy an extended family camping trip? But if you are hunkering down, then shotgun.

      • You are still probably going to have to hunker down and deal with mobs of crazies in the woods. The take the woods plan would be a great idea if no one else had the exact same plan.

        If several thousand, or even several hundred, people go out into the wood outside of a town or metro area looking to forage and hunt, how long do you think it will take to use up all the resources in that area? Not long, I assure you.

        Better bring your own food to the extended camping trip and be ready to defend it from unprepared people that are hungry. Because you’re not going be the only ones out there.

  23. The way the question is written, it makes it sound like this is a “bug-out” scenario instead of a “bug-in”. In this case… I would think weight is the primary consideration. As a loner, I can’t outgun a group of people- I would make good use of stealth and the suppressor on the P22.

  25. What type of shells? Buckshot, birdshot, slugs?

    If things might not get better I would choose the .22. It and its ammo are lighter, smaller, easily concealed and if needed I would obtain a bigger gun with the small one.

    • Absurd. You can’t reach out far enough witg that pistol to not be heard (silencers afent silent) or seen.

  31. Pistol for me. I think there would probably be a lot of value in going relatively unnoticed. Hard to do that with a shotgun.

    If we’re talking other options though, I’d take my Glock 19 over the .22 any day, and over the shotgun as well.

    Even better, hunker in place my my AR and a good stockpile of water/food/ammo.

  32. Walter, all day long. First target are those deer eating my strawberries. And no one hears a thing.
    Except me quietly moaning over marinated backstrap for lunch and strawberry jam for my bread.

  33. I’ll take the shotgun because is things get too bad I can just go to the balcony and fire two blasts in the air and all the bad guys will run off.

  35. Shotgun. The suppressed capability of the Walther would be nice and relatively concealable. But to be honest in a short-term SHTF scenario I’d rather advertise that I have a “Boom-Stick” and it is at the ready. In the short-term I believe most would recognize my defensive capabilities and walk away looking for a softer target and for those who don’t, they’ll have a brief and intimate view of the inside of their chest cavity. Either way my main goal would be to egress out of any hostile area as quick as possible.

  36. My assumption from your scenario at the top is that this is temporary and law and order will return. This opens the door to prosecution of crimes committed during the time of lawlessness.

    Due to the public’s ignorant views on suppressors, based largely on movies and James Bond type novels, I would choose the 12 ga. Many will make the assumption that the suppressed pistol is an assassination tool for wet work operations and more suited to offensive actions rather than self defense.

    The 12 ga. is a traditional self defense tool and will be looked at more favorably by the public and police. If you are going to stay in place, deterrence is your friend, unless you have a bunker under your house and can disappear from the neighbors and looters going through your house.

  37. AR15 shotgun please.

    This seems like a no brainer, but maybe it depends our your neighborhood. The 22 is probably great but I feel like it’s utility would be way narrower.

  38. Though I am not a P-22 Fanboy and my AO is decidedly rifle country, I would take the Walther as I have numerous reloads and a few other assets that would accept the accessory shown

  39. The only bad part of this scenario is knowing you were ill prepared to begin with if these are your only 2 options.

    • That was my thinking too! If those are my only choices, then I’ve really seriously screwed up in being ready for poop hitting the ventilator. But if those are indeed my only choices, then I’m grabbing the shotgun and a hack saw to shorten that barrel and stock.

  40. Shotgun without question.

    The shotgun is a very effective hunting tool for all kinds of game large and small.
    It is also extremely effective against those pursuant on doing you harm. The aforementioned also directly result in better value in a trade if trading is decided upon.

    Now lets look at the 22. First, its a 22. Second it is fired from a pistol – not from a rifle. The takedown power of a 22 fired from a pistol is very minimal. Second, your aim must be perfect and at close range on small game only – this is not possible while the suppressor is attached as it will likely affect accuracy and further reduce penetration power. To me, its almost worthless.

    Once we had a butcher come to take care of one of our bulls in the pasture. He shot the bull square between the eyes, and it didn’t fall – just made it mad. He used a 22LR (non-subsonic) fired from a lever action rifle (far more powerful than a 22 pistol). Now compare that to a 22 pistol where much of the powder is wasted and much of the energy is robbed to cycle the action.

    I would even take a pneumatic pellet rifle over the 22.

    • As further proof of my argument I googled “walther p22 chronograph” and arrived at this video on youtube:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XICiFpdkBqQ

      Man shoots Winchester 333 22LR ammo in a Walther P22 measured with a chrony.

      Winchester 333 is advertized as 1280fps. However that is with a Rifle (single shot or bolt action) – not with a autoloading short barrel pistol.

      As a direct result and in watching the video above you can see that because he is using an autoloading pistol in lieu of a rifle, the shot velocity is decreased from 1280 to 880 (or less – we will use 880).

      Now… we used the following equation here:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

      and we can calculate the energy for a 880ft/sec bullet of mass 36gr.
      The chrony is off the muzzle… the muzzle (not at 100 yard and not with a suppressor which would further reduce the power).

      (1/2) mv^2 = 0.5 * 880fps * 880fps * 36gr * (1/(7000*32.163))

      I calculated 61.9 ft-lbf.
      Absolutely Pitiful.

      It is extremely doubtful that you could break through a skull let alone get through heavy denim with 61.9ft-lbf even at point blank.

      You would have to be very close and very surgical with it which defeats the purpose of a gun. Might as well use a knife.

    • Modern sound suppressors typically don’t adversely effect accuracy unless the threading/mounting/can is misaligned, and in many cases increase accuracy through reduction of blast-induced dispersion. Add to that you also get a boost in velocity (how much depends on the caliber and barrel length).

      That being said, the .22LR isn’t particularly sensitive to barrel length, either.

      Another note on the physics of your post, in regards to semi-automatic actions: according to Sir Isaac Newton’s Third Law of Motion, for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Energy isn’t “robbed” to cycle the action in any self-loading weapon. However much energy is thrown from the muzzle is also thrown back into the weapon, regardless of the cartridge in question, regardless of the action type of the weapon.

      • “Energy isn’t “robbed” to cycle the action in any self-loading weapon.”

        I disagree. I am not a physics expert, but I will say that work is done on the action of the semiautomatic weapon directly as a result of energy provided by the chamber explosion. However, this does not affect velocity as nearly as much as the length of the barrel. It is well proven that a longer barrel equates to higher velocity. Conservation of energy applies in all things – everywhere … including this.

        I am not an expert in suppressors, but if the bullet is unimpeded in its travel through the suppressor you are likely correct.

        Just look at the video – it speaks for itself. 1280FPS advertized velocity that is shooting at 880FPS out of a Walther P22. There is no denying that the bullet exiting his pistol in that video is any more than 61.9 ft-lbf.

        • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle

          Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
          40 gr (3 g) Solid[1] 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 104 ft·lbf
          38 gr (2 g) Copper-plated HP[1] 1,260 ft/s (380 m/s) 134 ft·lbf
          31 gr (2 g) Copper-plated HP[1] 1,430 ft/s (440 m/s) 141 ft·lbf
          30 gr (2 g) Copper-Plated RN[2] 1,750 ft/s (530 m/s) 204 ft·lbf
          32 gr (2 g) Copper-Plated HP[2] 1,640 ft/s (500 m/s) 191 ft·lbf

          And we are getting… 61.9ft*lbf Woot!

        • Ah. Well, I’m going into engineering myself, so I literally have to know physics pretty well.

          The energy used to cycle the action in any weapon is provided as a direct result of that whole Third Law of Motion thing. It wouldn’t matter if it was a recoil-operated pistol or a gas-operated rifle: all else being equal, the velocity will be the same regardless. Energy isn’t subtracted anywhere, which also goes back to the Law of Conservation of Energy, it’s added to a system designed to utilize it.

          Modern suppressors use a baffle system of one kind or another to trap, slow, and expand escaping gasses. It never touches the bullet except in the case of a baffle strike, which is no bueno. The kinds of suppressors you’re probably thinking of are older designs using wipes or some kind of steel wool filler with a neoprene cap.

          I also don’t implicitly trust manufacturer’s claims of muzzle velocity, no matter who it is (or Wikipedia either for that matter). Ever wonder why ammo companies almost never list the barrel length, or whether or not it was a SAMMI/NATO-spec ventilated test barrel? This is especially true for rim fire and steel-cased ammunition.

      • Headache medicine,

        Looking at this ballistics gel:

        http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3174275

        I’ll go back on what I said earlier. I guess kinetic energy of bullets isn’t really a good judging factor. The ballistics gel appears to back it up. Seems a non-hollowpoint, preferably FMJ 22 bullet would have some decent penetrating power. Shot placement is key.

        I’ll concede this argument. You guys won.

        • Truth be told, picking one over the other really depends on your situation. So, there really isn’t a right or wrong answer here. There are definitely pros and cons to both.

          Personally, I’d rather keep my Versamax loaded with 3 1/2″ buckshot and slugs, with my M&P .40 strapped to my leg to wait out short-term civil unrest. I won’t be taking any shots beyond 100 yards in my environment, and deer slugs are well within minute-of-felon even at that distance if you know what you’re doing.

          It’s really only when you get into TEOTWAWKI that your plans would have to expand beyond disaster preparedness. It will quickly get messy, though, even in a 30-60 day WROL episode — especially after the hunger and thirst start to bite. All one has to do is look at places where a huge weather disaster has struck, most recently in the Philippines and in NOLA after Katrina.

          Anyway, I’m getting waaaaay ahead of myself here. This was more of just a silly “what-if” question out of morbid curiosity. 😛

  41. M2 – Out here in the land of the dead, game is, well, rare to say the least. In a social unrest here, when the water stops flowing my biggest worry will be two-legged predators.

  42. Walther P22, because I’d get that spiffy NFA-regulated item with it. Plus, 50 shells for 60 days is not a happy proposition if things are really bad. I’d rather have more ammo.

  43. You can’t take the shotgun, it would make too much noise. Plus if you find a .22 rifle lying around you could (probably) adapt the silencer onto it.

    • Oh really how would you accomplish that. I highly doubt anyone can fit a machine shop in their bugout bag.

  44. In a mob situation you need to motivate the “herd” to do what you want, the 12 gauge would turn the lead “steer” by loudly putting him down. The suppressed .22 is for clandestine work and couldn’t be heard over the shouting. “This is my BOOOMSTICK!” (to quote a classic)

    I believe there is no suprise left if they are knocking on your door with pitchforks and torches. If I want to be quiet, a blade is quiet, an arrow is quiet.

  45. I’ll take the shotgun. If I need to defend my family I want more firepower. 200 rounds of .22 won’t last long. A .22 out of a pistol is a lot different than a .22 out of a rifle.

    I’m no doomsday prepper, but I’m so glad I moved out into the country. Clear running stream and large pond nearby with fish. Thick forest with plenty of wood. You tend to naturally stalk up when the grocery store is a far away, but there is an abundance of deer and small game if needed.

  46. I’ll take the Walther if the ammo is good.

    Small, concealable, light, quicker accurate follow up shots and quiet. Cycle the .22 behind the front door and nobody’s the wiser, rack that shotty 2 blocks over and everyone knows where you are!

    Also, SHTF I’ll be going after the people who threw the S into the F. Suppressed pistol will allow me the noise advantage to actually escape.

  47. Powerful, intimidating long gun vs. rimfire pistol? Long gun wins for me.

    Long guns are just easier to hit with. I might even take a rimfire rifle over a centerfire handgun.

  48. No contest, supressed .22

    It allows for being as grey as possible. I want to look like one of the unprepared, unarmed masses, while not being one of the unprepared, unarmed masses.

  49. Well, if those are my choices, it means I got robbed, and the bad guys dumped their weapons, preferring mine. Being I’ve already been robbed, and thus cleaned out, I’d opt for the .22 for the reason that I no longer have any thing of value, and my goal will be sustenance. I guess my diet for the next few months will consist of wabbit, squirrel, and the unfortunate house cat who poke its head up. Might even bag a turkey, they do roost after all, and then a .22 at 25 ft is a crock pot filler.

  50. All by myself? .22 suppressed. The Benelli is an attention getter – NOT a good thing for a lone gunman. When working by myself I rely on speed, stealth, and surprise. Speed is hampered by weight. A shotgun and it’s sound are far from stealthy. Surprise is more easily achieved with a suppressor.

  51. 200 rounds of 22lr seems a little light to me. I could probably stuff 500 rounds in each front pocket. I think that is the main advantage of 22lr in an emergency situation. The suppressor is a big advantage, but 50 shells against 200 rim fire? I would probably go for the M2.

  52. take the shotgun, no question. then find someone dumb enough to have taken the P22 and take that from them. 😉 ok just kidding about the last part, mostly.

  53. Shotty. While some people say “You can defend yourself with a .22! Its all about shot placement!” that’s assuming that you’re an expert marksman with a .22 handgun. I’m definitely not, and I tend to aim center mass, so I’d go with the shotgun. And people are like “You can shoot small game with a .22!” but you can shoot game with a shotgun too. There might not always be anything left depending on what you’re shooting and with what load, but I imagine you could make it work.

  54. I’m going to say the P22, because I don’t know if I’ll have ear protection, and in a situation like this, I’d want to maintain as much of my hearing as I can. Meanwhile, the suppressor is plenty scary, and, at close range, a .22 will still kill. It’s not going to be a gunfight gun, but I’ll be avoiding gunfights like the plague. I will, however, have to worry about being mugged or assaulted at close range, probably by folks with blunt weapons and knives. My .22 won’t give away my position, but it will offer adequate utility until I can kit up with something more befitting my taste, like a rifle.

  56. The P22 is concealable and quiet and, in the given situation, I would want to be as low-key, unassuming, and un-noticable as possible.

  57. M2 all day and every day. Primary SHTF strategy should be to shelter in place with you and yours. Shotgun with slugs is a very formidable weapon from 0-100 yards.

    If nearby situation deteriorates to the point where I/we need to move then I want as much firepower as possible. Long guns are relatively easy to conceal except at close range with even light clothing with some effort.

  58. This is a tough decision for me.

    There isn’t a lot of game meat roaming around my neighborhood, so hunting really isn’t an issue for me. In my situation, I would take the suppressed .22.

    On the one hand, the ubiquitous 12-gauge is known as “The Hallway Howitzer” — and for good reason. It’s absolutely lethal up-close, and when a shotgun speaks, every scumbag within earshot listens to and understands what is being said: GTFO OR DIE. There are few things more intimidating than staring down the black abyss of its muzzle. It’s as close as most all of us little civvies will get to owning and using shoulder-fired artillery. Sure, it’s loud, and noisy, and kicks like a mule, but if you don’t miss (which is actually far easier than you would have thought possible), whatever is making you employ lethal force is going to have a bad day and probably not want to fuck with you anymore if it doesn’t die out-right.

    Then there’s the utilitarian .22 Long Rifle. It’s arguably billed as the bullet that has “killed more people than any other caliber in history”. You can plink with it very cheaply, you can fill a crock pot with it, and with proper shot placement you can kill two and four-legged predators with it. It’s low-noise, low-flash, and low-recoil. The ammunition is tiny and lightweight, and so are many of the weapons chambered for it (and the guns are usually cheap as well). .22LR is also a curiosity, in that it has enough power to penetrate the human skull whether out of a pistol or a rifle, but doesn’t have sufficient energy to leave it — which also speaks to its relative lack of ability to rapidly incapacitate people.

    During civil unrest, the last thing I would want to do is to draw attention to myself. A suppressed weapon (usually) isn’t going to ruin your night vision or your hearing, either, and everyone in my household could use it without fear of recoil sensitivity. I already have a compact laser/light, too, which would be another bonus.

    Dispatch invading scumbags quietly, then lay them out on the lawn just before dawn after taking their weapons from them.

    …What? I’m not to just leave them in my house to let them rot, stink up the place, attract insects, and cause mold problems later!

  59. In the real world, I’d chose the suppressed .22 pistol. More ammo, less weight, easier concealable. For hunting, I’m more likely to find a squirrel or chipmunk to make a meal out of than I am a dear or boar. And being able to take down small game quietly is a bonus …

    … But I don’t live in the real world. I live in Illinois. I’m prohibited from owning a suppressor and would have to take the 12 gauge.

  60. Fools, ya gots to have a shotty.

    If Roddy Piper had shown up at that bank with a .22, he would have said “I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass…and I’m all out of ass.”

  61. So I kind of want to know kind of ammo? sub sonic .22 since it is supressed?

    For the shotgun, 15 shells of #4 bird, 10 rifled hollowpoint slugs and 25 of 00 buck. Then again, Ive always been a shotgun guy, so maybe Im biased.

  63. Depends.

    They are both pretty awesome.

    Probably the Benelli if I’m stationary or have lots of room to spare. Otherwise I’ll take my chances with the walther.

  64. I would adapt to the situation and put the P22 in my leg holster and carry the M2. I have the gear in my home and the training to carry all the ammo and hole up for months or move if necessary.

    If you can’t adapt you’re already finished.

  65. I like this one! Its a close call, since both aren’t bad in a pinch, and absolutely better than nothing, but I think the edge for me goes to the M2, or any decent 12. More options for ammo, and more ammo to scourge, is why everybody should have ay least one solid 12.

  66. I have a Benelli like the one shown. I’m taking the shotgun.
    More versatile, long and short range capable, can be used to bash doors or heads in, wide variety of ammo

    Which is why bought it. The Benelli is worth every penny

  67. Walther P22: Easier to conceal, and the person who wins the gunfight is the one who hits the other first (usually). I’d rather use 200 rounds of .22 than 50 of 12 gauge. Look up ballistic tests of the .22. Not ideaL, but I wouldn’t sneeze at it.

  68. Walther P22 without a doubt. I dont care how fat you are, you ain’t concealing a shotgun on your person. Something which is easily accomplished with a pistol. And in an urban situation that is what counts.

  69. That depends if I’m deciding to play defense or offense. I’d go with the former and the shotgun in those conditions.

  71. The Benelli. It’s a great all-around survival gun. It can kill large and small game and kill any human predators dumb enough to threaten a man with a 12-gauge shotgun.

    The Walther comes in a distant second mainly because I can’t imagine hitting a squirrel or rabbit with a 22lr pistol at 30 or 40 yards, even with my beloved Mark 3. It’s only advantage, besides being silent, is concealability. I don’t necessarily want the bad guys to see it coming.

  72. I’m leaning toward the Walther. 50 rounds of shotgun will not stop a determined crowd and put food on the table. It is primarily a defensive firearm. The Walther, much more concealable and hence, able to fit naturally into a variety of urban camo scenarios ie: homeless guy with nothing. Also, with the Walther I can take what I need silently thereby increasing my store of consumables, firearms and hopefully, more .22 ammo. Shotguns are noisy and serve as an advertisement. Homes, castles etc. are pretty much defenseless. If they weren’t, Hitler would have had more problems with the Maginot Line and SWAT teams would not be so effective. I can be more offensive and pro active on my own terms with the Walther.
    Neither is ideal but just some thoughts.

  73. A shotgun, only because if I had to count on someone else using it in self defense of me, rounds on target are more likely to happen with the scatter gun.

  74. The Benelli. Pure intimidation from a shotgun like that would most likely end any looter incursions without a fight. Could take small game or deer if need be. If it was a P99, I’d consider the pistol, but if I had only one gun it’s not gonna be a rimfire, especially not a rimfire handgun.

  75. Being old and feeble, I’d opt for the .22, both because it’d be lighter and easier to carry and aim, and because the recoil from the scattergun would probably knock me on my tushy.

    And about the ability to hit my target, I’m a natural. My very first shot with a pistol was a 9mm Beretta and I hit dead center from about 20-25 yards. I already knew about sight picture from USAF M-16 training.

  77. The handgun, always. Most real-world calamaties aren’t going to be Walking Dead or Mad Max, you’re going to be living in a world with people attempting to rebuild. Lots of trigger-happy cops and soldiers trying to keep the peace. Lots of people who aren’t going to take too kindly to people running around with long-guns. You’re going to get turned away from refuge camps.

  78. Interesting question. If I can’t follow my bug out plan and have to stay in my area then I’d probably take the Walther and conceal. Otherwise, in those conditions, I’m outta there so I’ll be taking my SuperNova with me.

  79. Does the pistol have to be the Walther? Their 22 is not exactly the most reliable one on the market, but I’d take a Ruger or a Browning in a heartbeat.

    • Once I got a few extra Mags, I’d take my M&P 22. over the Walther P22. Yes Wather made it, but to Smith specs. AND with the adapter, I can use that same suppressor. I don’t live in the People’s Republik of Kalifornication… So I got the threaded barrel AND the 12rd Mag. Too bad getting extra mags is such a pain…. Either they’re not in stock OR someone has decided to gouge on price. The .22lr rounds are small, a small box of 500-550 isn’t all that big, and will fit in about the same space as 2-3 boxes of shotgun shell boxes. I’d take both if I could though. The shotty would be nice for more intense operations where maximum damage would be good… although reload of the shotty would take longer than swapping mags (when you got ’em.)

  80. Since I own neither I’d grab my sks w pig sticker and have to figure out a way to drag 20lbs of 7.62 around.

  82. Benelli all the way. A well-handled 12 gauge can take anything walking on two or four legs in North America. Sure it’s loud and bulky, but so are most people–sneaking around a city environment like a tactical ninja with the Walther sounds tempting but in a real SHTF scenario I want to keep as far away from an urban area (and the armed mobs that occupy them) as is feasible. Few things short of an M1 Abrams say “GTFO out of my way” more than staring down the cavernous barrel of a 12.

    The idea is to stay mobile and scrounge what you can find while always keeping the option of lethal force available when it is needed. Shotgun ammo is plentiful even now, is available in a bunch of different loads, can be reloaded and there’s no better weapon in close combat. .22LR? Not so much. Can’t hurt to pick one up if you find it though, if for no other reason than to keep the pot full.

  83. Benelli. First, cuz I own it.

    But more importantly: 1. It’s slingable, 2. It’s larger-than-squirrels huntable, 3. Shells would be easier to concoct than cartridges, 4. It’d definitely kill zombies.

    As so oft said: Your handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your long/shotgun, that you should’ve had in the first place.

    • Taking a deer or a hog in a survival scenario, with as little waste as possible would mean lots of cooking and dehydration…. it would take some time, and the smell would draw … well… attention. Small game would cook quicker… faster to get moving without drawing attention.

  84. some situations would be easier with the 22, but some situations would be impossible without the shotgun.

    scenario 1- there is a rabbit you would like to shoot but not get detected.
    it would be easier with the 22, but with the 12ga you can shoot it and leave the area.

    scenario 2- 6 desperate looters come breaking down your door trying to get supplies.
    good luck if you have the 22.

    so, i would take the shotgun. also it would be easier to get more ammo for it.

  85. Well, I see this is just an entertaining academic exercise for folks. Those of us who experienced two devastating hurricanes within 6 weeks, Katrina and Rita, unfortunately remember the scenario you lay out quite clearly. You need a shotgun and shame on you for only having 50 rounds. Other people are the danger. Even good people. You strand a man on the side of the highway with his wife and three kids and no food or water and he becomes capable of anything. Don’t let anyone get within pistol range. That means a long gun, and that’s what we all used down here.

  86. I know what my solution is but lets think this through because the choice is centered on what you’re trying to accomplish. The ammo question alone is enough to make this unanswerable since the composition of that 50 rounds of 12 gauge is apt to push the argument so far in favor of the shotgun that unless concealment and stealth are primary considerations the .22 cant recover from the raw utility of the long gun.

    First I think it’s important to understand how people behave in a disaster area and that is somewhat dependent on the nature of the disaster and your location. In major population areas they tend to ignore one another like they do without a disaster, in rural areas they tend to collaborate and assist one another thus much less chance of needing the gun as a defense tool.

    The second thing to remember is that both food and water will be extremely scarce in weeks not months in an urban area, if you live in one of these you need to get out sooner rather than later. Once you leave the city the game changes, long guns on shoulders are no longer odd or intimidating and virtually everyone you’ll meet is armed, advantage shotgun since stealth and concealment no longer matter.

    If you’ve started in a rural environment you don’t even need the initial advantages of concealment and stealth, advantage shotgun.

    If you’ve started in a city and plan to stay there the advantage is to the pistol if only because there is nothing to hunt and you can control engagements to be both very close and very funneled. Of course you’ll likely starve if you don’t first die from bad water and aren’t murdered for your supplies, but at least you could make the pistol more effective by choosing where to die.

    That leaves a suburb. It’s not a city and it’s not rural. There are lots of people but they are less inclined to predatory behavior. They may be frightened of a long gun but that could be a good thing after a while. I suspect a suburb would be over run and looted within a month given a city that has no water, power or food deliveries is right next door but you could be lucky enough to not live directly in the path of the refugees. Now bug in/bug out really is an option and the weapon choice starts to make more sense. Having everyone know that hearing the blast of the shotgun means you might have food might not be good, however others approaching when you might be in trouble could be. On the other hand appearing not to be armed when you actually are could be a salvation. . .

    I’m still going shotgun in the suburbs if only because of its power and utility (and in no small part because I’d be leaving for a rural area with all haste) and the fact that at the point you’re using a gun in suburbia for food and defense you’re in a WROL situation by definition and stealth and concealablity simply pale beside a really effective weapon.

  88. First lets clear the air as to what your greatest threat is and more importantly isn’t during times of civil unrest.

    I would gladly welcome with open arms roaming packs of disenfranchised citizens and opportunistic street gangs over what more realistically will happen and that is well armed military personnel that are well armed, armored and have clear lines of communication, communication that can bring in the matter of minutes dozens more equally fitted and prepared to swiftly execute standing order; I say execute for a reason cause there will seldom be an arrest made, who ever is violating the special laws in place. Now that we are clear about that I choose neither.

    Martial law means door to door searches for contraband, so unless your idea of readily available includes smashing out the drywall to get to your shotgun that you have squirreled away I would nix the Benelli, Additionally the report coming in over 130+dB will surely bring plenty of troops your direction and they don’t respond to the sound of gunfire with requests to relinquish your weapon.

    Next the Suppressed Walther P22, not a bad firearm not a great one either, certainly more reliable then a Sig Mosquito. Yes I have owned both and both were modded to address their individual well documented issues. The problem I have with the Walther is for one, its size, the short barreled version with suppressor is not convincingly concealable with out a heavy garment that hinders accessibility and draws attention unless its winter. Traditionally Police and military are trained to observe your attire. They look for unseasonable attire, ie wearing a jacket in the summer or clothes that hang to one side as if weighted by a fire arm. Don’t believe me, your sitting at a computer use Google. Key words in this order. Police Profile Attire Concealed Firearm, sure I could have posted a link but now you can see how many verticals have been written on this subject matter.

    Now to my choice, If you can’t tell by my “handle” I would recommend the beretta 21a with a “Wasp” suppressor made Thompson Machine. The Wasp can be fired dry or wet in addition it uses wipes to further quiet the report. The entire package total length is just 2.3 inches longer then a Franklin. (hundred dollar bill). Couple this with 4 modified Mags from another Beretta of yester year filled up with 60 grain Aguila SSS… not telling cause don’t want every one buying them up. and you have 8 in the mag and one in the tube. Further modify the safety to act as a slide lock; cause who needs that the barrel tips for de-cocking not to mention you never have to fumble for the safety, and you have a very concealable and formidable weapon.

    So if orders come to relocate you to a camp for your safety, you can easily dispatch your unwanted house guests with out to much of a mess and quietly. Hey since this is all hypothetical go nuts, switch out to their clothes, you now have their weapons and go buck wild. As far as the roaming gangs looking for food and women folk to fornicate a suppressed weapon says much more then a shotgun. A shotgun says, I’m not a great shot hence a shotgun, and I’m most likely a novice and haven’t used this thing since 1999 when I thought the world was going to end. A suppressed .22 on the other hand lets someone know, that unless there is a witness your the only one who will know where their body will be buried. Additionally since its widely believe that suppressor are illegal it leads them to believe that if you have committed one felony especially of that nature your obviously in the mindset to make add to that list. Plus Brandishing a very expensive rig gives the impression that you might have more then just that. Suppressor=Perception Management the best way to win a fight is for there to never be one.

    I speak from great experience on this subject matter, I was forsed to pull a weapon 3 times now. fist time I brandished a .44 Desert Eagle on a Roadraged asshole with a tire Iron, supprisinly he didn’t stop when I told him to. The police when questioning me said why such a big gun, my response ” thought a weapon of this caliber (notoriety not actual caliber, going for the pun) would stop anyone with out having to pull the trigger. the second A Walther P22 Gemtech suppressor guy fell to the ground as he tried to turn and run; oh thugs… pull your pants up would ya. The third was The weapon I so lovingly described; Beretta 21a/Wasp and to my supprise the 2 Guggalos(actual Guggaloes… stupid running hatchet man T-Shirts and all. Actually said ” Pshhh a 22 what ya gonna do with that?” my retort” its good enough for the CIA and Mafia” and I drew back the hammer making an audibly click. Run Hatchet men run. PS, I was in a wheelchair at the time and this happened and they followed me from my college campus.

    Point is, walk softly and carry a quiet bang stick. The average Person that is acting out during times of civil unrest are mostlikely normal people… just hungery, thirsty and scared, you don’t need to end a life a small caliber round mid thigh works just fine if push comes to shove. it shows mercy, and when they see you aiming at their head I doubt you will have to waist a second round. This isn’t the Zombie Apocalypse.

    PS I wasn’t going to post anything but after reading some of the crap posted I wanted to temper many of you armchair survivalists with actual real world information, the notion of Escape from New York/The Road is what sells tickets, the real world is 72 hours. That’s the estimated amount of time that the average household can support its self before people resort to alternative means. 30<60 days by default means that your dealing with military. To whom ever posted this nonsensical situation you should crack a book, or better yet Google.

  89. Why not make a clip holster and use what you have lying around to make mag pouches? You can take both of the weapons.

  90. Previous to Saturday night I probably would have chosen the P22. Now I’d definitely choose the shotgun because I’ll never shoot a P22 again. My pristine P22 chattered the slide and hit me in the face Saturday. The round count is around 1000 and NONE of those rounds were HV. Upon inspection there are SERIOUS design flaws with the P22 as well as hundreds(if not thousands) of examples of others with the identical problem. Walther is aware of the problem and has been for quite some time but has made no recall on the pistols…… Not cool. I understand it’s a low cost pistol and if you sweet talk them they will replace the slide but I personally don’t trust one at this point. It’s a pretty crappy situation at this point.

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