Sig P320 banned from GSL Defense Training

Dallas Police have recalled the SIG P320s because of concerns about the guns discharging when dropped. At the same time, Omaha Outdoors has suspended sales of the pistol. Watching how readily the SIG pistol discharges when dropped in the TTAG video and story earlier this week convinced my fellow instructor team.

GSL Defense Training has banned the SIG P320 family of pistols from all of our future courses, effective immediately.

The safety of our students and bystanders is our first priority. Especially with lawyers lurking behind every blade of grass in America today. While dropped guns remain exceedingly few and far between, in our minds it’s a risk we just can’t take. Like many trainers and training schools, we have loaner guns that students can use that haven’t shown a propensity to discharge when dropped.

Furthermore, we decided on the blanket ban at this time because we simply can’t tell whether the guns have been repaired under the “voluntary recall” or not. Time will tell if other training organizations invoke similar pistola non grata policies regarding the P320.

For now though, while I personally like the P320 and consider it an excellent pistol, it’s not worth the risk.

 

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86 COMMENTS

  2. Wow. Banned? What are ya’ll a bunch of fuckin liberals now? This shit is getting out of hand. I garun god damn tee there’s several firearms platforms out there today, handgun, rifle, and shotgun, that could discharge when dropped in a very particular way. I don’t even own any sig shit but I think I’m gonna go buy a 320 just to scare all the antis.

    • My other most dangerous tool is a chainsaw. I don’t plan on dropping it at the negative 30 degree angle either. Firearms have always been dangerous. Old timers used to keep a dollar bill rolled up in the chamber under the hammer of their SAA.

      Disclaimer: Over 55. Taught not to drop my gun. Own three P320’s. Never dropped. Never beat with a hammer.

      It is good an update is being released. Hopefully, it is not a Series 80…

      • Exactly. I’d honestly say a chainsaw can be more dangerous than the vast majority of firearms. I use a chainsaw occasionally on my farm. If I cut my leg off with it guess who owes me money? Fuckin no one. I gotta deal. This insane fear of litigation will be the death of gun culture.

      • I don’t know where you’re getting your information from. But Firearms are drop tested before they hit the market supposably. I shoot competition I’m around guns all the time. The myself has dropped a gun or two. Glocks have been dropped thousands of times Smith & Wesson’s drop thousands of times not one report of them discharging. Especially that the military has it the P320 you can already figure how many times it’s going to get dropped. We’re going to be losing soldiers before we can even send them to fight. Your chainsaw has a clutch so the chain doesn’t turn. If your chain turn without you pulling the trigger. And you don’t have a problem with that. And you don’t have an issue with a firearm discharging when it’s dropped. May I please have the permission to open a life insurance policy on you.

        • “We’re going to be losing soldiers before we can even send them to fight.”

          Oh dear lord take a breath and at least work with the facts. You do know the XM17 does NOT have this issue right?

        • Would an M1 garand or WW2 era 1911 stand up to this kind of testing? Millions of soldiers carried them in the most intense war in human history with little problem.

          • No a WWII era 1911 was not what we call drop safe today. However, they were carried chamber empty until use was imminent.

        • Yep, and the 320 passed the ANSI standard testing. The standard drop test does not include a drop at a -30 degree angle. If dropped at a particular angle, the gun can discharge. As a 320 owner, this is much ado about very little IMO. As I have not seen a comprehensive test of all other modern handguns on the market being repetitively dropped at every conceivable angle, I’m not convinced this is the only handgun with this issue. Don’t care, in fact. Here’s a news flash, dropped firearms can discharge. Thats the reason for the four rules.

          A problem was identified, it has a fix. I’ll have the updated trigger installed once its available. GSL can do what they like, but I would have thought a temporary ban and/or having students sign an declaration that their 320 has the fix installed would be enough. Do people really think that all those Glocks out there with aftermarket parts for a home trigger job are all safe? To be safe, should probably ban all handguns with anything but stock triggers as they may not be drop safe either… In fact, the safest thing is to ban all handgun courses… for the children!

        • 1) the P320 is “drop safe” by all of the industry standard drop tests. It’s only because Omaha Outdoor spent a weekend dropping guns at weird angles that anyone even know this can happen. Standard drop tests are on the muzzle and side, not -30 degrees.

          2) A mil-spec 1911 can go off if the falls muzzle down onto concrete or other very hard surface from several feet. How high the fall has to be depends on the sensitivity of the primer.

          3) An M1 Garand can do the same, as can an AR-15 or any firearm that has a non-captive floating firing pin.

          4) The M17 has some upgrades that prevent this. I am still wanting to know if the manual safety prevents this as well. (if it prevents any rearward travel it would, also if it blocked, or captured the striker)

        • Mark Horning & Whatever

          If you read the original statement Sig statement, the translated lawyer speak came down to “We were aware of this issue in consumer guns for quite awhile, which is why we implemented upgrades in the XM17. It was only recently the consumer found out about it which we hoped they wouldnt. But look on the bright side, we have had no issues in the commercial market. Honest. That being said, for liability reasons, this is an upgrade, not a recall.” Being lawyers, they were very careful how they worded it, but its there.

          I mean, how do you think they had a solution so quickly when the issue came to light in the recent what, week? Not a coincidence and if you think it is, youre more dense than you think you are.

    • A service pistol is far more likely to be roughly treated, dropped, kicked, tossed and otherwise abused than some range commando’s pet that spends most of it’s life in a safe or sadly, left loaded under your pillow for a child to discover, as is far too common lately.
      The officer who was injured by his p320 was shot by a HOLSTERED pistol on a duty belt when it was dropped onto a hard surface. This is absolutely unacceptable for a service pistol. Pistols get dropped during violent incidents, they get bashed on door handles or duty rigs get tossed during water rescues and they must be safe 100% of the time, period.
      If I was still an active LEO, I would not carry an unsafe sidearm for any reason, not even to “scare the antis”.
      And by the way, a chainsaw can’t blow a hole in you at 25 yards can it ?

  3. Seems like an over reaction since I would imagine a “repaired” SIG would come with documentation of the fix and would denote the gun by SN.

    But hey, not my business, not my problem. I don’t own a SIG and I don’t even know where this company is.

  5. Two fellow shooters had some real nightmares with sig so i avoid them. One was a p938 that had constant malfunctions. Sig “serviced” the gun and the bill was about 150.
    Other companies offer a similar “service” – proctologists but they at least use lube

  6. I think this is an overreaction. Then again, it’s not my liability, so I can’t blame JB for being very cautious.

  9. Hmm. It could be that their training is so intense that dropped firearms are a real risk, but this smacks of easy free advertising at SIG’s expense. Never let a crisis go to waste 😉

  11. Considering how many LEOs have shot themselves in the leg when reholstering Glocks, I think it only fair to ban Glocks too. Heck, I recently read an article where a prominent firearms training facility demonstrated how drop safe a Glock was, and the gun went off after hitting the ground. Revolvers do not have any safeties – banned. In fact, lets ban all guns that do not have at least two manual safeties and at least a 12 pound trigger pull. Funny, my insurance company hasn’t banned me from allowing students to carry Sigs and my attorney hasn’t told me to stop either. Hmm, either this paranoia is pure BS, or people are really pissed that Glock could not come to the military trials with a gun design that met minimum requirements.

    • Right? Who needs liberals when we’ll apparently just ban our own shit. Who needs enemies with friends like these…

  12. I don’t think everyone read JBs post accurately. Until and if there is a definitive way to be sure the 320 is fixed he can’t take a chance that a student might drip one and kill someone.

    If any of you were in his position what would you do?

    • I would act like a grown up and and not overreact to something that wasn’t an actual problem until someone decided to start throwing pistols on the ground at a specific angle to make them discharge so everyone can gasp and faint.

      It’s really a sad commentary.

      • Robert I agree.

        There are these things called range waivers.

        Something tells me the odds of a student being injured by a variety gun (any gun) handling mistakes issues is far higher than a student dropping a P320, dropping it at a magic angle on a hard surface, and then discharge towards flesh.

        Should we only allow simmunitions from now on?
        Oh well, brace yourself for a few more weeks of this overblown festival of click-bait.

      • Sigs earned their shitty reputation. I wouldn’t allow these unsafe shitpistols either if i ran a business like this.

        • This is going to cost Sig big time. I bought a P320c. It was crap from mag one. Failures galore Sig paid the 200.00+Fed-Ex) bill as well as the extractor and spring+ tech time.Probably 300.00. This is going to be very costly not only in the pocket book. Reputation can be everything. It does not require a degree in marketing to realize this. When I think back I thought Tylenol was through after that scare. Who knows. If Sig was a publicly held company I was ready to buy Put options on their stock.

      • It LITERALLY takes only one drop. We have a real-life example of this happening, it is not theoretical. Any business that has to take on liability- and no, waivers don’t do away with that, no matter what they say- is insane if they don’t at least consider the issue. And the issue is… do they let a few butthurt Sig guys bring unsafe guns into a training course where they can endanger other people or do they risk losing the business of those few guys.

        • So are we now going to support the notion of “glock leg” too then? Because that’s also literally a thing.

  13. I wonder if they are going to ban pre-Series 80 Colt 1911s an the many other 1911s and many other models that are not drop safe. That is a lot of models that were made from the late 19th century until the late 20th century. I guess a Kimber Raptor II would be OK but not a Raptor. God forbid is someone brought a Colt 1903 to that range!

    The point is that there are a lot of pistols that are not drop safe. However, in this litigious society I see their point in banning the P320.

    • “However, in this litigious society I see their point in banning the P320.”

      No. It’s firearm control. Don’t drop your gun. Or don’t throw your gun down at a -30 down angle.

  14. And the firearm blogs thank you for playing the click-bait game. Brace yourself for every agency and academy announcement becoming prime click-bait even if prudent or over-reaction.

    Curious, any other models banned? Have they done this with other brands/models that have had safety issues in the past?

    It is sad what the firearm blog community has turned into lately.

    • Thank you!

      With every article I read, I have to wonder “what the hell is going on?!?” Everyone is whipped up into a panic into something that seems to only happen if you intentionally drop it at a certain angle and then act like a bunch of scared cavemen.

    • This. Next time there’s a democrat a majority I don’t wanna hear any crying about a new assault weapons ban from these people. It’s the same exact mentality.

  16. Just take notes and let our memories be long regarding these folks that over reacted on this. We’ll see if they are consistent in the future when other brands/models have similar safety issues.

    Heck the list of banned guns should already be longer than one if they’re being honest.

    • We already know they won’t, as they just make excuses when anyone asks about testing other guns.

  17. I just think it’s funny that nobody has a problem with a gun discharging when dropped. If you say you’ve never drop the gun, did you haven’t handled one long enough. They are dropped all the time. Millions of Glocks millions of Smith & Wesson not one report of an accidental discharge. That is not okay that is not the norm. Because if this was the norm I can go around killing people by shooting them insane I dropped my gun. Yes you don’t need a demonstration to know accidental discharge could fatally kill you or anyone in the in the area. That’s the last thing I want is to be in a room with somebody have an accidental discharge and I got to explain this in court with 12 people that probably will not understand. They also just received the military contract that P320 is now and m17 you know how many soldiers will drop that gun in training. I just can’t believe some of the knuckleheads that are posting here. You’re the Reason Society has a problem with firearms the ones that don’t understand and think they’re dangerous because people are dropping them and killing each other. Just giving them another reason to bang done to this country. There goes your saying guns don’t kill . Let you drop them. And if you’re buying guns that are accidentally discharging stop buying cheap guns or keep your grumpy hands and tools off of them. I personally don’t like the gun I’ve had my Smith & Wesson’s and love them so American. But some people seem to like the P320. The discharge is not okay it is not normal and it is dangerous identify the problem recall the guns fix them before somebody gets killed. A life is more precious than the company. But it will ruin the company as well. If that gun killed somebody from an accidental discharge the military will pull that contract faster then they signed it. And I have a feeling if it ain’t one of the morons posting here somebody with a P320 is going to hurt themselves testing it. Or they’re going to damage their gun tearing it apart thinking there an engineer. It seems like the more this world gets populated the stupider people get. Accidental discharge it’s the norm it happens. Stupid

    • The military version does not have this problem. Maybe you’re the reason anti-gunners are all over what we say

    • I’ll bite:

      – Everyone has a problem with a gun discharging when it gets dropped. That’s why the guns believed to be faulty are being upgraded or replaced.

      – No proof exists of a P320 accidentally discharging from being dropped. The only ones you know about were intentionally dropped for the purpose of discharging by groups who want to make you feel shocked. Big difference. (anecdote of “I know a guy who heard from another guy who read it on the internet….” doesn’t count, either)

      – M17 already has the upgrades and I am pretty sure that is what will be used to replace existing stock.

      – if you drop your gun as often as you portend, you’re part of the problem.

      • Actually there is at least one case of a P320 being accidentally dropped and discharging. The cop that it happened to is suing Sig because he was injured.

        • Read the lawsuit. Not even close to the circumstances being tested. Says he had it in a Safariland 6360 strapped to his leg and the entire holster fell off of his leg onto the ground. With ththe hood closed and from the less-than-4 foot drop, I am willing to bet the SRT/SWAT officer made some adjustments to his firearm.

          Furthermore, a basic claim of the lawsuit is that “On August 16, 2017 [sic], the Dallas Police Department issued a recall of the P320 due to drop safety concerns…” (page 7, line 32). Obviously, their date is incorrect, but they are using it as if it are a fact when it is not,

          I’m sorry, I don’t consider it a credible act.

    • First of all The m17 guns do not fail this test so before you go on and blatantly declare a fact as a fact for you check it is wrong second of all there is a very simple way to tell if the gun has been upgraded or not upgraded the upgraded guns have a trigger which is clearly less mass and if you go on the web pages and do a search sig 320 upgrade, there are picture of the replacement parts that will go on your gun

  19. bought this gun to be apart glock haters & homosexual for guns club. First you haters make fun of my vp9 now my sig. like its not funny enough that I have a small penis and now my guns suck

  20. I’m not an operator so I spend my money on ammo and other guns instead of operator training. That way I can use whatever pistol I want and not have to worry about offending someones inner safety nazi.

  21. The Walther CCP has recently issued a voluntary recall for not being drop safe. This is not being singled out like the Sig. Most 1911s have no drop safe device. These are not banned. It would be considerably harder to determine if a 1911 is drop safe versus the updated trigger on a P320. This sounds like showboating for publicly sake to me.

  22. Bill’s got a point about the Walther CCP. Where’s the outrage?

    So I looked up the Walther page on the CCP. Nothing listed there. Not good Walther.

    Then I looked for other customer service type pages on the website. They actually have a section dedicated to recalls. They have mounted a full recall of affected Walther CCP pistols, with copious details on the problem, affected serial numbers, and other identifying marks.

    THIS is what Sig should be doing.

  23. I don’t care about 320s or 640s or any of that. I see Sig and laugh. They were run into the ground and quality has gone down. But some reactions are silly here… the training compound should ban PEOPLE… problem solved. Sell sigs and buy 4 hipoints. Just don’t drop one on your foot.

  24. Never heard of this training outfit before. Nice free advertising.

    Uh oh, it didn’t work. I already don’t remember the name of the group and I even skipped reading the comment section.

  27. Just a note, if you have a Sig 320 that you think is too dangerous to own, if you pay me $3000 per gun retrieval plus expenses, I will safely retrieve that gun and properly dispose of it for you. Oh, for those who think this hysteria is as stupid as hell and want to buy some Sigs, I may have a bunch of Sigs to sell very soon.

  28. The M16/M4/AR-15 isn’t drop safe either. If you drop it on the ground butt first with the bolt locked back it may release the bolt forward and if you do it on a loaded mag now you have inadvertently chambered a round. We need to clutch our pearls, ban them, recall them, and generally act like we have temporarily lost our damn minds.

  29. I’m still carrying mine. Maybe I should start looking for some on sale, maybe I can find a great deal one from someone who is scared of it.

  30. In the interest of fairness in advertising I believe Mr. John Boch, TTAG Commentator and author of this posting, is the same Mr John Boch (John BochTemplar223 (at) comcast (dot) net) listed at GSL Defense Training (http://gsldefensetraining.com/) as an instructor. The article “TTAG Welcomes Blogger John Boch” elaborates on this relationship. Based on the comments I do not believe the article clearly revealed this relationship. Among my firearms I do own Sigs, Glocks and others.

  33. I keep seeing the whole “Glock Leg” being brought up constantly, yet it was never caused by dropping the weapon ala P320. Its a laughable/retarded/stupid comparison. “Why”, you ask? Now, lets back up and ask one question…

    Can anyone please tell me what specific condition caused these guns to, “magically fire”, and injure the person holding it? (Protip: It wasnt from being dropped.)

    Care to, take a shot at it, Hank?

    BTW, dont come up with some anecdotal forum BS about Glocks firing when dropped. Come with an actual credible documented report with evidence. Hearsay isnt evidence. Plus, im not a Glock fanboy, i wanted the M&P to win. But i cant deny Glocks history.

    • And no, videos of Glocks with modified/aftermarket triggers do not count. Im talking stock, OEM, just like the P320. It really makes me cringe to say this as i prefer the M&P, but Glocks have a proven history.

      The only real blunder i can recall was over 20 years ago with the DEA (or was it FBI) drop test which it failed but not because the gun would fire, but due to the impact of the drop, the slide would separate from the frame. That was promptly fixed.

  34. Coming soon: Firearm fails the magazine disconnect test in which a gun with live round chambered and no mag is pointed at the tester’s head and the trigger is pulled. Everyone is ‘dropping’ the said firearm from its classes, police forces etc. claiming concern over safety issues. 😀

  36. I don’t know how many of you have been in the Army or Marines. If you can mess it up soldiers/marines will show you best way to do it. I would not send my soldiers out with a weapon that can discharge if it is dropped. You may notice that serviceman and women often have lanyards installed and in use on their sidearm. That is because those things fall out of holsters and get dropped all the time.

    Very few of these people are going to treat these pistols like you treat yours. This is not an expensive item they bought. This is an issue item. It is a tool like any other tool you carry and employ. I love Sig pistols, but personally I will not own one of these until it is remedied 100%.

    Imagine if your chainsaw would start back up and rev for no reason.

    • Good lord almighty the ignorance surrounding this issues astounds me. It’s like all of the sudden everyone went full Anti. First of all, the XM17 doesn’t have this problem. It’s been said multiple times now. Second of all, every rifle the military has ever carried including the current AR iteration can be considered “not dop safe”. So this really is a complete non issue contract wise, and third…

      Yeah, a chainsaw can’t rev itself up… just like a p320 can’t point itself and shoot at someone all on its own. Some of you really have been brainwashed by the Antis apparently. Guess we might as well ban ARs too then, right?

      • Speaking of gross ignorance…

        Your earlier (terrible) example of Glock Leg makes Wade’s point of an example of how not to do things. Except in the Glock Leg cases, it wasnt military, it was various PD’s. (And one Tex Grebner) Wade is absolutely correct.

        • Do you not know how to read? I was comparing this issue to that of “glock leg” as a measure of the stupidity this has reached. I guess I should’ve spelled it out clearer.

  37. “we allowed him to participate while fully aware that his pistol was prone to discharge if dropped. this was wanton disregard for safety and the student who was injured will be compensated for our lack of foresight.”

    the phillipino knife fighting academy (pkfa) has banned bali songs from its itinerary as it was determined that someone might receive a laceration.

    why wouldn’t you just buy a p250 anyhow?

  38. Their Facebook page looks like it has been touched in months. How active IS this Training company? I left a visitor comment asking if they were also going to ban Glocks with feather trigger jobs and the other dozens of weapons that are not 100% drop safe. Here’s their Facebook page.
    https://m.facebook.com/GSLDefenseTraning/

  39. Curious though how many other striker fired guns would fire after repeated strikes with a hammer…

    • It has been tested at various forums and is currently ongoing. So far, what has been confirmed is that the XD, M&P and Glock dont budge, the PPQ and VP9 will release the striker *BUT* the firing pin block stops it so it will *NOT* ignite a cartridge primer. Nothing on other models as of yet. I know for sure one portion of this testing is at P-F. I dont remember what forums I saw the other tests. Its like, the “Mallet Test” or something along those lines.

  40. I owned a 320, full size .40 Cal and it was beautiful. 14 + 1 in a .40 is bad ass. Thankfully I got rid of it when I did. Not because I’m afraid of it going off on me, but because I got my full dollar amount back. I loved the gun, but I traded it for a Smith & Wesson Model 15-3 blued snubbie. I absolutely love that gun. I wouldn’t have gotten rid of it over this info, but after watching the video, going off 2 out of 3 times is fucked up. I’ve personally never dropped a gun, but the entire time I had it I never kept a round chambered simply because there’s no safety, no hammer and it has a very light trigger pull. I never used it for CC though because it’s so damn big its hard to hide, so I used it for a house piece. I do plan on buying another one, hopefully in a .45 because I do love that gun and I despise Glocks so I’m glad Sig has a gun like that, but it’s still messed up that they go off like that. Chances are it would never be an issue, but if it ever did discharge accidentally and hit someone, especially a kid or something I’d never forgive myself. There’s so many guns out there anyways, I’ll wait a little bit until they correct the problem and then buy a new one. Still bad ass guns though, but I’d never keep a round chambered ever. Although I don’t keep one chambered in any semi auto anyways, doesn’t matter what gun it is. I have a Smith Model 36 no dash that I use for CC so I don’t have to worry about a gun without a round in it. The old Colt SAA used to go off too when bumped or dropped, but being that they were one of the first repeating handguns ever made, I’d expect there to be problems. It’s 2017, I wouldn’t expect that from a gun, especially not from a name like Sig. It’ll be fixed in no time, but damn I am sure glad I sold it when I did, I turned right around and handed the money to the vendor for my first Smith. I’d take the Model 15 over just about any gun out there though.

    • This may come as a shock, but I don’t think anyone really cares if you “want be getting a sig.” (sic)

      You are the only person you have to please with your decisions.

  44. I was a military instructor for 35 years , my retirement paper says I qualified over 10k men on .45, 9 9mm, m-16, 12g, .40sig, Walter, Smith & Wesson, trained 100’s of police officers, 100’s of CCW owners and 31 years as An NRA instructor, and have yet to have anybody with any gun drop one. PERIOD. The only way a pistol can land like that on the rear qtr is if they do what you just did, hold it by the muzzle at 4-6 feet and drop it on concrete. I’m sure you have figured out the odds of that happening, care to share!??

  45. After spending more than 30 yrs training cops at all levels to shoot, I can say with complete confidence that Murphy’s law is alive and well in firearms training. If you’re unfamiliar with Murphy’s law, then nothing that can be said about the 320 that will change anybody’s opinion. From a liability standpoint, I am in agreement with the decision to TEMPORARILY SUSPEND THE. Use of the 320. Everybody just needs to step back and shut the hell up.

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