The above photo was graciously supplied by my local gun store, Sportsman’s Finest. What’s their motto? I dunno what a motto with you? No seriously Poomba, it’s “The very best in Fine Firearms and Fly Fishing gear!” Yes well, “finest” is a subjective term. And relative. So which of these two pistols is the finer firearm: the HK P30 V3 (click here for TTAG’s review) or SIG P228 M11-A1? The $1125 SIG M11-A1 has phosphate coated internals and SIGLITE® night sights. The $1,023 Heckler & Koch pistol hates you—but can get over it. Which one would you grab and why?
Sig. With HK, the aftermarket hates you too.
+1. I wouldn’t give HK my money, in any case.
I own several sigs, and they are extremely accurate and reliable. The decocker is a bonus, from my point of view.
I don’t like the decock position on the P30, otherwise its a fine gun as is the Sig. If I had to choose between these two I’d go Sig. However, if the HK was a USP, well, I’d go HK all day long.
+1 however I have to say I like the sig a bit more than the usp. (No safety)
Sig all the way for me. I like both but I am partial to sigs & I’ve heard HK’s customer service is god awful
+1. Sing all the way; and I’ll break down exactly why:
Sig SRT trigger and reset are unquestionably superior to all the HK, including box-stock USP. Advantage sig.
Sig grip is equally ergonomic and comfy compared to HK- imho they are equal. I DO like the HK variant that has a safety switch ( and MIsS this on my Sig m11)
Regarding the HKs; I do admit the p30 has the same sexy grip of the full-size HK 45. The 45 c does NoT have that grip, inexplicably – and again, the sig trigger is WAY better than all of them- so for me, I simply had to go for the sig. The decocker is nice, however I would prefer a safety, especially for condition 1.
Amen. I don’t want to go to a gunfight holding hardware from a company who hates me (hates me when I’m off duty, and hates everyone else not wearing a uniform). Plus, the Sig in general is a fine firearm. I will not ever purchase an HK product while they are ruled by their current civilian disarmament team. Ruger took a turn for the better, but I doubt that HK ever will.
HK is not anti civilian. They are pro $$$ so they do focus on the mil products like the gmg and 416.
But guess again if you think hk is the one prohibiting you from owning one. It’s your gov and your wallet.
If they were truly and fully pro $$$ they’d cash in on their military reputation and provide decent service to the vast civilian market that (despite HK’s best efforts) wants their stuff. But they’re obviously doing well enough as is, and they can do what they want.
But this is referring to the split second decision, when you have to dispatch an intruder, are you really thinking about how the company isnt pro-civvie?
SIG! Nothing personal, HK, but my West German P226 has never given me any problems… and I doubt the M11 would let me down either.
If I had a choice between these two, I’d grab which ever one was closest to me and be damn grateful to have had the choice of two such fine firearms.
It really depends on what you’re using them for. I have several versions of each and love them both for different reasons. Neither has ever let me down; however, the Sig is a bitch to run in left hand only tactical drills! The HK is fully ambidextrous which makes it much easier to use with the left hand. Also I’ve noticed while running both hard and heavy in the rain/snow that Sigs can get a bit slippery when wet. I swapped out my stock fat grips for an E2 mod and put a solid steel guiderod in it instead of the stock hollow one. Runs like a champ! My HK is a v1 light LEM trigger in .40 and 9mm with forward slide serrations and no de-cocker as this is the design I prefer and BOTH of these fine weapons are better in appendix carry than any striker-fired pistol on the market in my opinion. Just feels so much safer re-holstering either with that hammer on the back! One thing I’ve noticed is that when a longer range precision shot is needed, I draw and manually thumb the hammer back on the Sig for the lighter 4lb trigger-makes long range “sniper” shots feel almost like cheating! As far as the company support goes-Sig Sauer is second to none in my opinion! It feels like HK wants you to send them $ just to answer the phone, or to provide ANY customer service at all! Sig has been exemplary every time I have had to deal with them. The way I look at them is that my HK is a “Glock made, polymer framed, polygonal bored, ergonomic gripped, fully ambidextrous Sig Sauer”.
I carry my HK to tactical classes and trainings that utilize a lot of weak hand drills; classes where there’s heavy rain and/or snow involved; or concealed at times when I’m riding the ferry to and from different locations where I would be truly upset if I were to lose my Sig in the ocean! The HK’s are also nicer during “high round count” tactical training classes where you shoot a whole lot; then rush back to the hotel to clean up; gulp down a quick meal: perform all of your firearm and gear maintenance: practice the day’s skills that were learned: write your paper for the class you have to teach the next morning; then pile into the rack as early as you can so you can be up the following morning at 4a.m. to get a quick coffee and get back to the range for another day of fun and frolic in a balmy 41degree all day rain! The HK is polymer and has a polygonal bore for quick and easy cleaning and maintenance-a true gem for the rushed and hurried crowd! All of the other times when I may need the ultimate, most accurate, reliable, durable, dependable, easy-to-carry, never fails, well worn, best friend of a firearm on my hip… I carry my Sig Sauers. They shoot circles around all of my other pistols and have never failed me once!
HK, because it’s not a chunky metal boat anchor and the grip is more ergonomic.
I like the Sig better because it’s chunky and metal. Plus you never know when you’ll need a boat anchor.
I was handling these exact two pistols at the local shop the other day and I have to say: The weight is nearly impossible to tell apart. The P30 is not lightweight for a polymer gun. It’s actually a lot heavier than other polymer pistols in it’s size. Holding them both at the same time, they felt exactly the same in my hands. I couldn’t tell the difference other than the balance. There was more weight in the HK slide while the M11-A1 had it’s weight very evenly distributed.
SIG all the way! And if I needed a boat anchor, my M11 could serve as one…..and STILL be able to shoot, afterwards!
That Sig is beautiful!
The SIG. It’s far less fugly, and not made of plastic.
RF … I hear a baritone George Takei “oh my” echoing in my ears….these are both evil ASSAULT WEAPONS in NY state! Shame on you!
Neither, which is why I just bought a Beretta 92.
As the proud owner of all three, I agree with you. The 92 has the finest trigger and smoothest cycling of any hammer fire, double action pistol ever made.
Yea until you get sand in your open slide. Thats why the military decided to do away with them & not re-up there contract. There great at the range but dont take em outside mud & sand!
+2
My only experience with a Sig is with the Mosquito so maybe I’m biased, but if the Sig actually gives you your extra money’s worth (+50%) it must truly be a great gun. That said I like being able to tell the difference between the slide lock release and the decocker without turning the gun sideways and looking. Providing you’re not using parkerized aftermarket magazines in Afghanistan or shooting one with 150,000 rounds under it’s belt, you just can’t get more reliable than the 92. And after 1000 rounds you’ll be moving over to the rifle range because the 92 is just plain boring at 25 yards.
The Sig Mosquito isn’t actually a Sig. It’s made by GSG (German Sports Guns). While it may resemble a shrunk-down P226, it is nothing like one.
Seriously, the 92? By calling that gun a chunky monkey, you make the understatement of the year. I can’t get my mitts around my airsoft version’s grips (although I do have small hands). I like my airsoft P228, which is my sidearm in games.
I don’t play airsoft games. My guns are for business
Neither, would rather go with a Hi-Power or CZ. But of the two I’d say the P228.
+1.
+100.
cz all day long for reliability, ergonomics, and price.
I’d take the Sig over the HK, but like you I’d take my CZ75B over either of them.
I tried to get a CZ. I looked all over and when I finally found a P-01 I for some reason couldn’t reach the slide release comfortably. I also couldn’t get a good purchase on the slide. It felt good in the hands until I had to manipulate anything but the trigger.
I’ll stick with my Sig. All the controls are within easy reach and its a tack driver.
I owned both-A Sig P226 and a P30 LEM.
The Sig was competent gear, but its heavy and blocky.The blockiness makes concealment difficult.
The HK was svelte, but magazines were and are expensive and the P30s grippy stocks are like a cheese grater when carried IWB.I guess a $900 pistol should come with a free sandpaper feature.Plus, the recoil on the .40 P30 was like driving a sport package BMW across a potholed Chicago city street-abusive.
So, I now carry a Beretta.
🙂
I’m sure there is no difference now a days reliability wise but I am partial to hammers – Sig. Also, the Sig has the raised tac sights so you can schuck the slide one handed on a belt or firm object when you are all shot up on your last stand against bad guys.
The HK has a hammer.
I did not see it easily so it must be almost completely contained in the slide.
It depends on the variant you choose. The popular LEM variant uses a bobbed style hammer much like the SIG DAK hammer but from the rear it is very visible. The DA/SA variant uses a fairly standard hammer that will look similar to the Sig’s hammer.
Also to note, the stock night sights on the HK are of the tactical variant like the SIG’s, great for racking the slide when in a tough spot.
The Sig for two simple reasons: I owned an older W German P228 so I know what it can do and what I can do with it.
I’m going to pick: C. None of the above, for this one.
While I like H&K products and adore SIG pistols, I want to carry something ‘Murican. Hence why I bought my full-size M&P .40.
The M11-A1 is manufactured at the Exeter New Hampshire facility. So while the parent company isn’t American, the pistol is being manufactured in the US by an American company; unless you consider it a non-American company because it’s the child company of a foreign company.
I agree with you.
Sometimes choices can be no choice.
Ill take me a 1911 any day and don’t care where its made.
Just because a Toyota Tundra is built in Texas doesn’t make it American anything.
Eh? If you’re looking for an American product, buying a clone of a gun designed by a long-dead American is not the way to go…
Personally, I don’t see the incessant need to only buy American made products. I’ll buy American made products if they’re better than the non-American made products. If the German gun fits my needs better than the American gun, I’ll buy the German gun. If the American rifle preforms better than the Swiss rifle, I’ll get the American rifle.
So you’d choose to support an “American” company even manufactured over-seas thus not helping anyone in America other than the owner, over a Swiss/German company with Headquarters/Import/Academy providing jobs and services to Americans?
But, to answer the question.
The Sig.
Maybe because I carry a P228 daily.
Since I own both, I’d use both. The P30 is the most comfortable gun.
People who would choose a modern sig over an HK product have no idea what they are talking about. Sig hasnt made a reliable gun in 10 years. But Sig lovers will talk about how their gun has been flawless for a whopping 600rds. Let me know when you get to 20,000
I’d like to be educated. Got any articles in support of your views?
Yeah, its called talk to any current sig armorer or 5326 and they will be happy to inform you. German sigs are legendary for a reason. NH sigs are filled with MIM parts and are nowhere near the quality everyone associates a SIG with. The reason the Navy still uses them is because SIG makes forged NSN parts to replace the commerical MIM parts, that are only available if youre gov’t. And the MK25 you see at the gun store is about as close to the real one as a bushmaster is to a M4A1
How about this. Instead of relying on anecdotal evidence, go out, buy five SIGs and five H&Ks. Do a control shoot where you fire ten thousand rounds through each, cleaning each gun every 1000 rounds. After that, shoot each gun 10,000 times without cleaning. Count stoppages, FTFs, and every other malfunction. After you’re done shooting, do a comparison test of the internals to check the wear. Write up your findings and submit them for peer review among firearms professions. Report back to us and tell us your findings. I’m sure RF will make you a regular contributor after that.
Kevin A- Perhaps you should do that test and then you can report on how the HK is superior. Good luck on your findings
It’s already been done. See Todd Louis Green’s 50,000 round endurance tests of the P30 and HK45 at pistol-training.com. (Hint: Hk45 == all-time reliability champ, P30 not far behind.)
See also the MANY discussions of SIG’s quality issues over the last 10 years at pistol-forum.com. One popular theory is that quality dropped off when SIG got panicky about Glock capturing the lion’s share of the market with their sub-$500 guns.
Pistol-training.com runs range reports where they just shoot the crap out of guns reporting counts between stoppages and failures and such. Let me direct you to the P30 page.
91,322 rounds
13 stoppages, 0 malfunctions, 5 parts breakages
test ended at: 91,622 rounds
http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668
I will have to look for a sig range report.
There isn’t one for SIGs. Glock, P30, HK45, M&P, and now a 9mm 1911 which is causing me nearly physical pangs of envy.
I would be glad to give you a round count that high, but I can’t find another 14k rounds for my m&p
Nothing wrong with the M&P. We have seen several hit the 30k with nothing more than a few malfs, some of which were only weakened magazine springs . A solid platform.
I just bought a sig p226 mk 25 about 5 months ago and between reloading ammo cheap tula ammo and whatever else I can find I have sent over 5, 000 rounds down range and have yet to experience a single failure. I also carry it in an old faithful iwb holster and is very concealable for me. So I feel that my sig is very reliable and worth the money I spent on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWxtXFy9FSQ
I’ve never seen either brand malfunction, but your broadly painted comment about SIGs is poorly-informed.
I own a SIG with 2500+ rounds and zero malfunctions, and I have put at least another thousand through other new and well-used SIG pistols with zero malfunctions. I don’t think I even *know* anyone, including veterans who carries them, that has ever seen a SIG P226
I’ve also never seen an HK malfunction either, and the P30 is hands-down the most comfortable and accurate 9mm I’ve ever shot. I love both guns, but SIG seems genuinely happy to serve the US civilian market. HK treats us like untermenschen, and I’m still waiting for them to improve their customer service like they promised years ago.
They are both SIG’s
Sure
Isn’t
Glock
meh, whichever is closer….
For that price, you get a block with the Nee York reload option: spare pistol and three more mags….
P30, as a lefty shooter I like the ambi controls. Plus despite the roughness of the HK grip the fit to my hand is excellent. Thats why I bought one of the earliest 40cals
Sig, because you don’t suck and we don’t hate you.
If you’re giving it away I’ll take either.
The P30, because the team at HK does NOT hate me and the aftermarket is just fine for my needs, thankyouverymuch. If I need parts or service from HK I always get what I need, unlike, say, Walther owners.
I don’t even hold it against them that they’re refusing to cater to the idiotic CA “safe handgun” roster requirements. The Roster needs to die.
(Disclosure: while I’ve primarily run HK pistols over the course of my shooting career, I have trigger time behind just about every major make of semi-auto pistol and would be perfectly happy if someone handed me that SIG.)
I don’t think you can go wrong with either, but I agree about the HK aftermarket – honestly, when handling my HK45C, I can’t think of a damn thing I need to add. Even the factory sights are great, unlike my XDm 3.8 which has adequate peepers from factory but really needs a set of Trijicons to be “right”.
Of those two, I’m grabbing whichever is closer, but if it’s equal distance I’m going with the HK.
There are a fair number of aftermarket sight choices, but in some cases, you have to wait for periodic manufacturing runs to get a set. After I run a few thousand rounds through my next gun (P2000SK) I’m probably going to put in a fiber front sight, hopefully one of those fiber/tritium hybrids, and black out the rear sight.
SIG. I have a P229, manual of arms is the same. Familiarity breeds repeat purchases.
I’ll grab the first one tht comes out with a 10mm. What is the point of a full size handgun in a inferior round such as the 9mm? For the price of one of these two I can buy two glocks, and they sure won’t be in 9mm.
If I’m forced to chose one of these I would close my eyes and grab because which ever one I got wouldn’t be much different than the other, other than weight these two are just over-priced 9mm’s.
Glock 20, come on dowwwwwn!
Tom
You people who think there’s an appreciable stopping difference between the “big three” handgun calibers are adorable.
Might one caliber shoot better for a given person? Absolutely, and that person should carry that caliber, whatever it is. But get over the ballistic bullshit – modern handgun loads are all the same in practical reality.
I respect that there will always be a niche market for the 0.1% of handgun owners who have a credible chance of having to shoot a bear. For that market, the 10mm Glock is the reasonably light autoloader alternative to carrying a 6-shot 44Mag revolver.
For 2-legged critters (meaning kangaroos, of course) the real world effectiveness of modern defensive HP loads in 9/40/45 is virtually interchangeable… And all of them are a distant second to a rifle or shotgun.
As much as I’d prefer the steel-framed Sig over the poly-framed P30, the M11-A1 doesn’t have a dustcover rail. I’d prefer the flexibility of adding a weapon light to the P30.
But given the choice between a railed P229 and a P30, I’d pick the steel frame P229.
The SIG’s have an aluminum frame with anodized finish. While the finish is hard, once your through that, the unprotected aluminum goes pretty quick. Modern polymers are still plastic, and aluminum is not steel, so you have to weigh the respective uses for each in the construction. I definitely want a polymer pistol in the temperature extremes, leave an aluminum and a polymer frame in the summer sun for an hour then grab them and try to shoot accurately. Try the same with bare hands below freezing….
Neither I carry a Beretta M-92FS anyday over those crappy pistols. A Glock 17 would have to be my 2nd choice.
Same Choice as Craig.
I know this articles old but your comments are so ridiculous I had to say something, It shows your Ignorance a mile away! I own many guns lots of HK’s & the Sig M11A1. The Military SIG M11A1 & the Beretta 92 were the only 2 pistols that passed the militarys stringent testing when deciding to change out the M1911 standard issue sidearm. Beretta ended up getting the Contract & NO it wasn’t because its a better built gun more accurate etc etc its because in the end the Sig while being less expensive for the gun “only” cost more for the package deal vs the Beretta & thats the only reason why Beretta won the contract & having said that, the US Navy Seals opted out on the Beretta & Chose the Sig along with many other branches of military. So next time you decide to say something so Dumb maybe give it a lil thought before you ramble on like a moron. All of these guns are Top Notch guns, Close your eyes flip a coin & grab when it comes to HK, Sig, Beretta!
Can’t access the roster today to see if California will allow me to have either one, but of the two I’d grab the HK. I have a Sig Mosquito, which has the same grip, dimensionally, as many of their other firearms, and it really doesn’t fit my hand well. I picked up an HK45 at a LGS and it felt wonderful. On the other hand, both of these are DA/SA with decockers–I like the idea but not the reality. Now maybe I’m prejudiced because the Mosquito has one of these triggers and a decocker too–but I find it impossible to pull the trigger in DA mode, and the SA mode is numb.
I reread the review here of the HK–and I don’t understand the complaint about the price. Most 1911s are as much or A LOT more. Kahrs in the P series retail for $800, so what’s the big deal of a street price of $850 for a HK?
If you train enough to maintain reasonably skill with any handgun, the purchase price of the gun will be less than the cost of ammo, holsters, range fees, etc within 5 years of purchase.
I spend 50-100% of the cost of my HKs just keeping them fed every year. Less this year due to the ammo madness, but I’m catching up quickly in round count using factory reloads.
(Oh, and if you want a P30 or HK45, the choices are single-shot exemption or family transfer.)
Sig for me, but that’s because I used to own a two-tone P229 about 12 years ago. It was (and still is) the most accurate handgun I ever shot, in no small part because of the ‘Von Stavenhagen’ sights (aka, dot-the-I). It simply worked best for me. I also used to own an HK USP45 (traded it in for the Sig in fact) and that too was a very fine handgun, if quite bulky.
Now my first choice (and hext pistol) would be neither, but the FN FNX-45.
Tom
PS: who WAS that Von Stavenhagen dude? I’ve heard the name used in reference to the Sig’s (and older Beretta 92 as well) sights, but nothing else. Anyone?
Neither, I’d go with a Walther PPQ.
How do you like it? I’ve been seriously looking at the M2’s, especially since they’re on Buds Guns now.
My father carries a first gen PPQ everyday, and he’s kind enough to share when we go to the range. The PPQ is very similar to the P30, but at about half the price. The factory trigger, though, feels like it came off of a gun two or three times more expensive than the P30 (and the P30’s trigger is… Well, the Walther puts it to shame).
They have similar dimensions, though the Walther is a touch thinner, and they both have excellent ergonomics. The P30 has an advantage here, though, due to the modular side panels included with the multiple back straps. The Walther only has interchangeable back straps, but still manages to fit like a glove (your mileage may vary), and points very naturally.
I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend the PPQ. It has been reliable and accurate, with zero issues, over the course of about 6k rounds so far, and I’d replace my Glock 19 with one in a heartbeat if I could.
I love my PPQ’s (m1 9mm and m1 40) but I recently acquired a P30 LEM 40 and I have to say this one fine pistol. Its going to take some training but I’m digging the LEM trigger alot. AND as a bonus they all cost me relatively the same (PPQ 40 $550, 9mm $600 and P30 $600)
Build quality goes to HK
Ergo’s go to HK
Trigger, slight nod to Walther but the judge is still out on the HK
Sites go to HK
Concealment is a tie
My M1 have been an awesome dance partner. It eats everything I feed her and yes, the trigger is all that you’ve heard about. However, holsters are still a bit of a problem in terms of variety of options.
Hopefully as it becomes more popular that will be less of an issue.
+1
You beat me to it.
I’d choose the gun made by the Swiss. The Swiss were only half-Nazis. (Also, the Sig is more balanced, has less recoil, and has buttons/levers in more logical places.)
I own them both and disagree with everything you posted. Its good that we have options for everyone.
HK > SIG
If I had to choose, I’d choose the SIG and a handful of Adams flies, TYVM.
The Sig as I own a few and not a one has ever failed me.
One of my 3 H&K USP’s in .45 thank you
SIG.. just because the HK reminds of a porsche no matter how hard you try the Porsche is still based off a beetle.
What was wrong with the Beetle? You can soup up anything, but you have to have a good base to begin with. I suppose the carbon fiber frames on the new ubercars are not your cup of tea? Polymer is an evolution of material, its use does not make up for the design. I believe all the locking mechanisms are not that far derived from the High-Power, the basic SIG design hasn’t changed much from its introduction, including the lack of accessory rail on the front. The HK has taken those upgrades for standard in this evolution….
Um, the P228 in the picture above doesn’t have rails, but SIG certainly does offer rails in many configurations on almost all of their pistols.
SIG, to go with my M9 and my 1911 GI model for a U.S. service pistol trifecta.
If I’m going to own a gun that looks like crap, I’m going to pay as little as I can for crap that works. And that comes down to a Glock.
BTW, Your store there needs an education in what a “fine gun” is. Neither of the above need apply.
“Neither of the above need apply” LOL, but what would you consider a fine sidearm?
A Colt Python from the 50’s would rank up there.
Oh hell yeah! But only in Royal Blue. Prettiest gun ever made and unparalleled quality to boot. Well, except for the trip to the ‘smith every couple of years when she wouldn’t index properly.
Of course, I mean Royal Blue. Anyone who has seen a Python in Royal Blue knows why I mentioned a) the Python, and b) which variant of the Python I’m talking about.
Ralph, you know what I’m talking about.
So many youngsters today have NO idea of the level of quality we used to be able to buy across the gun shop counter in this country. When I show people a Python and say “You used to be able to buy this at your LGS!” they start to understand my rants about the abysmal quality being offered to the US gun buyer at this time.
*facepalm*
Enough of the ‘because you suck & we hate you’ crap already. Anybody who says that doesn’t have the slightest clue what they are talking about. Enough of it already.
M11A1s have extractor issues. I had one briefly that I had to send back to Sig because the extractor looked like it was whittled out of pig iron by a monkey with a flint axe. Anyone who thinks they are getting a service pistol in a civilian M11A1 is misinformed. It’s not the same, MIM parts galore, and in my case poor QC from Exeter. If the M11A1 were the same pistol the officers carry it would have an NSN which it doesn’t. Oh it does have that stupid UID label and phosphated internals but that’s the extent of the similarities. You would be far better off with a West German P228. Don’t believe me? Go visit the Sig Forum and put yourself in the know. I expected MUCH better from Sig, especially considering the price. New Sigs are not quite the pistols they used to be, and I can tell by the blind praise that no one here actually owns any of the new SS milled slide Sig P series pistols because to own one is to experience QC issues. I ended up selling it and buying an SP2022, which I happily report is a good firearm.
My vote would be for the HK. HKs don’t have issues, ever. Either the HK or go out and find a good old West German made Sig. They’re out there.
You suck and we hate you.
Sorry. I just couldn’t help myself.
The very first SIG I ever fired and carried was a loaner from my Uncle, a West German P226 with the post and dot sights. That thing was an absolute tack driver and still is the best semi-auto hand gun I have ever fired. Fast forward several years and I have since returned the SIG to my Uncle. I decide I want to get my own, so I bought a brand new P226 with the accessory rail and the SIGLite night sights. First off, the gun is lighter now because of the alloy frame vs. the all steel frames of its predecessors. Second, the recoil spring is significantly lighter. One of the the things I liked about the West German P226 was that after thousands of rounds, the recoil spring was still so stiff that a child under the age of 12 could not physically rack the slide. As an extra safety step, I liked that. Anyway, I could have looked past either of those things except that the accuracy on the new SIG was terrible and the trigger was vastly inferior to the older models. Point of aim was way off. I had to aim nearly 3 inches high at 7 yds to hit the bulls eye. I called SIG customer service and they gave me some crap about “Well, SIGs have what we call a combat hold, so you can’t go with the traditional 6 o’clock hold. Instead, you have to cover the target with the front sight post.” WTF? That might make a difference at 25 yds, but having to put the dot 3 inches high at 7 yds is straight up suck. I never had a FTF or FTE, but accuracy varied considerable more between different kinds of ammo, with 147 gr being the most accurate and 115 gr being the least accurate. And no, it wasn’t me, because I could pick up my Glocks, S&W Revolvers, Kahr Pistols, Beretta Pistols, my brother-in-law’s 1911’s, and even my Bersa Thunder .380 and be dead on with everything. Long story short, I sold the SIG and bought a Beretta 92A1 and haven’t looked back. I would only consider a SIG if it was a West German model. Period.
In all fairness to Sig, I’ve got a Beretta 92 and a Taurus PT709 that shoot low and a Ruger Blackhawk 44 mag that seems to be better suited for 44 special. With the Beretta and the Taurus I just hold the middle of the center dot about even with the tops of the rear dots and with the Blackhawk I took a bit of white nail polish and now have 3 different reference points to shoot with depending on which load I’m using. You can’t expect great accuracy with a compact 9 like the Taurus but the Beretta is a tack driver and the Blackhawk is downright scary – it’s that accurate. It really doesn’t take that much practice to become second nature.
That or switch to 147 grain loads.
Drive-the-dot sight picture is not uncommon in EU-designed guns. It’s actually a bit more accurate over longer distances (ie out to 50m) because drive-the-dot sights are more parallel with the bore axis.
I do think that dot-under-target and split-the-target sight pictures would work better for >95% of shooting scenarios if it weren’t for the fact that 99% of the pistol shooters I see can’t group their shots worth a damn.
I’ve got a Sig Sauer P226 Mk25. It’s the first gun I’ve ever owned and LOVE it! Naturally I’d go with the Sig and wish I could get the new p227. That being said I’ve also got an H&K 416d 22cal rifle whic is also great.
Is availability stopping you from getting the p227? (Not sure how availability is on it right now)
If the only choice was between those two I pick sig. If it where up to me I’d get 2 CZ p07’s for the price of either of those.
Neither one for me actually. The M11-A1 (P228) is a little bit of a marketing gimmick for HSLD wannabes. That’s OK as far as it goes if you’re into that sort of thing. Paying a significant premium for some nifty roll stamping and a UID label just doesn’t make it for me. On the other hand, the P229 with a street price in my area of a little under $800 is the way I’d go. The two guns have nearly identical specs and the 229 has a rail if you need one. The short reset trigger on the M11 is a nice touch but you can have that added to the 229 pretty easily and it’s not a lot of money to do so. I’ve got two P226’s that have performed flawlessly for me, I’d expect the same from the 229. After I acquire 226 #3 (one for each member of my family), I expect to get a 229 for the collection.
As far as the HK goes, I’m sure that it’s a fine firearm. I don’t dig their corporate philosophy so I won’t be doing business with them.
All haters aside, I don’t think anyone can provide supportive documents criticizing reliability or track record of either. Truth be told, both are fine handguns and both companies make excellent products. That being said, my two main carry guns are a Glock 19 and a Kahr MK9 elite due to my ability to conceal them depending on what I am wearing. I also recently sold a Sig MK25 which had a trigger job, 20 round Magwell grip, etc., so it’s no wonder I could not conceal it very well, but even with the trigger job, I just was not a huge fan of the trigger. It was just me, I am not crazy about double action/single action pistols. I then purchased a HK 45 Compact Tactical, because I wanted another .45, I liked the ability to change the trigger to a variant 5 (double action all the time). Also, it is able to be concealed by me a little easier and I liked the threaded barrel making it suppressor ready. In fairness to the Sig, I was the one who added the 20 round Magwell grip which made it less concealable and I can’t really ding the MK25 because I was the one who decided that I wanted another .45 which was suppressor ready. Never had a reliability issue with either.
Talk to any qualified Sig armorer, then you will have your proof of how unreliable they have become
So im late to your discussion. I think you are just a little off base with your ideology. Every single firearm manufacturer uses a mim part somewhere. Even Wilson Combat admits to using it in most of their guns as they even state that “tool Steel” extractors are extreme overkill as “modern” mim parts will last a lifetime. Now, understand the physical properties of metals and under circumstances, such as cold weather, ALL metal becomes brittle and can be prone to failure. I have seen every type of semi-auto handgun have some sort of issue, usually it is ammo related or mag related. I own a sig 226,227,229,938. I also own glocks, m&p’s, and a HK p30v3 in 40. I have had a failure to fire in every one, cheap ammo. NONE however in the 15 years ive owned some, have ever broke or had any part failure. If you want to be a sig hater, thats fine, but to claim that HK’s are so much better or that they dont use “mim parts” is living in a fairy tale. If you drive a car, fly in a plae, or any other motorized mode of transportation, then you are trusting your life to “MIM Parts” as they are used in engines! Sig alloy frame-lighter but stronger and more resistant to elements than steel, which is why it is used. polymer in the hk-no better than a $500 glock, which also shoot better, I own both! Sig has a very long standing reputation in military and law enforcement as trustworthy and reliable. HK are only used by those special ones who only use them today because of the MP5 of history and the HK name. The truth is that a HK is no better than any other manufacturer of the same class, which sig is not. No plastic anywhere. The HK, in my hand, has more recoil than my 229, less than my glock 23. Trigger-horrible and on par with a high point, but cant afford to change it out, like you can with all others at a reasonable price. Stop reading forums about mim and bashing some brand because your opinion of mim influences your decision, all the while defending a company that uses the exact same thing. Now for the original question, given the 2 options, Id take my sig 226 combat over either, followed by my glock. Other than ergonomics, the HK really does not have much else going for it, especially its lack of true night sights on a $900 dollar pistol that now days come standard on almost every sig.
I’d say the Sig, but really that’s based on very limited information. I’ve heard all the anectdotes about HK’s attitude, customer service and general post-purchase posture toward the civilian market, which does influence my perception.
On the Sig side, I do own a full size Sig P250 in .45 ACP, which has been a flawless dream of a firearm. It’s not a direct comparison, of course, but it’s something related. So I’d go with the Sig if I had no further opportunity to evaluate each firearm.
Already have the Sig M11-A1, and I do like it yes sir I do.
Was actually on sale here for $950, and it was that or the P229… Minus rail plus phosphate internals and SRT, I don’t see putting a light on a pistol that size anyhow.
Sticker, whatever. It’s done me well.
I’d choose option C – buy a glock and a 38sp.
I’ve owned both HK and Sig. I still have Sigs, but choose to carry the Glock.
SIG. I’ve had my P228 for almost 23 yrs. It’s never let me down.
That 23 year old 228 you have cannot be directly compared to the lesser quality Exeter produced P series pistols for sale these days. W German Sigs are better balanced with no MIM internals. Better guns all the way round. Reliability straight out of the box. People who say yay Sig I’ve had one for 30 years are comparing apples to oranges.
Finally, someone else who speaks the truth. A modern era sig is a hunk of garbage after 2500 rds
Never had any real hands on experience with a HK… I do dust off a Sig P220 every now and then, so I’d grab the Sig.
If that’s the choice I get, I’ll go with the HK.
But I would trade it for a Glock 19 ASAP
When is HK going to bring back the P7? Only HK that ever appealed to me. For that matter The Sig P230/232 is the only Sig I ever liked. Make them in 9mm this time.
For that price, I’d be buying a toy with a bonus. If that were the case, I think I’d go for the Five seveN.
ps: fcuk HK.
Whichever is closer.
That said, I do love my Sig P229 (and have nothing against HK’s).
Sig Sauer Sp 2022 5000 colpi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWxtXFy9FSQ
Sig. Because my P220 wants a “little” brother.
Which one would I grab? Well, it depends on which type of grabber I am.
If I’m a gun grabber, I grab BOTH of them because they’re evil and you can’t have them.
If I’m just my own self, I grab neither of them because they both cost far too much. I don’t have that kind of money to spend on a pistol, especially not when I already have two super-reliable Springfield polymer pistols.
If I have somehow found myself in some fantasy world where expensive guns are suddenly free for the taking, I’d grab both. Because hey, free guns. If I’m limited to one of them, I’d pick up the HK because it fires a caliber I already have on hand, and because I’ve fired one before and it was pretty cool.
At those prices I’ll buy two of something else.
Looks like HK took a tip from the Walther PK380 on that gun.
The Sig because, HK, you suck and I hate you.
Another vote for SIG. My 226 tends to be the most accurate over all my striker fired pistols. Biggest problem, I cannot seem to keep my thumb off the slide release lever.
I would grab a Glock 17 and a Glock 26, and still have money left over for ammo
SIG. The only handguns I’ve owned that were are reliable as Glocks.
Cz-75. And a new 60″ TV with the leftover money.
I own a German made and proofed P228 and a P30. They are both superb firearms and for me it would a difficult choice. I have no experience with the new M-11A which IMO is really a P229. If I had to give up either my German P228 or my P30 it would reluctantly and with tears be my P30.
Those who criticize SIG pistols that have MIM parts?? Well guess what so do new HK pistols and all other mass produced consumer pistols.
Also in recent years I have heard almost nothing but very positive reports on HK service from those who have actually used them. I only wish Walther could be near as good.
Either pick would be a very top tier outstanding choice.
This is wisdom. Pay attention, people.
In terms of buying for my collection I’ll take the Sig because I’m not an HK fan.
In terms of having to carry one to the end of the world and threw hell, I’ll take either. Both will work just fine in the worst conditions for killing.
Glock as well, I won’t buy a Glock for my collection because I don’t like them. But when the SHTF I would be very happy to have a Glock in my hand because I know it will go bang.
Glock is a great weapon. To turn your nose up to Glock seems a little snobbish to me. Don’t be a gun snob 🙂
Just sayin…
Neither, never used either one and I won’t trust an untried gun. I’m with Dyspectic Gunsmith here. Pay 600 for the glock brand glock and when the cops throw it in an evidence locker go buy another.
We need to get together soon so you can try my “unproven” USP40 with the new LEM trigger setup. If you can shoot a Mosin without a recoil pad… 🙂
The USP .40, isn’t that the gun you let me shoot last time? I had no problem with the trigger on that one. If i remember correctly it was the 5.45 cal AR you had that needed some tweeking. Your H&K is a fine gun. But it would break my heart to lose it to the police after a dgu.
My son has gotten into hunting. He’s found quail and deer hunting around Berryessa. He got a dog this weekend. It’s an SPCA rescue that had bird dog in it. He already has some training and we had him pointing in the back yard. Hopefully, this Saturday we’ll take the dog up after quail. I won’t hunt but I can handle the dog. Fun family time.
The 5.45 is squared away and running flawlessly. >1200 rounds at the Costa Ludus class, and the only problem was with a batch of new magazines I hadn’t had time to test before the class. Fixed the mags that night, days two and three were all operator error, zero mechanicals.
I’ve always viewed my working guns as tools, and I wouldn’t shed a tear if my USP went to jail for a while. However, I will freely admit that I couldn’t bring myself to abandon it during escape-and-evasion like they teach the covert-action guys to do if they have to shoot in a non-permissive environment.
Anyway, I liked it before — but I’ve fallen in love with it now that it has the new trigger system. Put 10/10 into a 3-inch circle at 10yd during a demo for a student this week.
Email me so we can coordinate a range trip!
AG, love it. I came out of retirement so I work full time during the week. The hunting thing my son’s gotten into is consuming a lot of my immediate weekends. I’ll check with him and my calender and email you. Look forward to it.
Hk can hate me all the want. I don’t care what they think. I do care about performance and utility. Overall I like my USP .45 CT just fine. The only Sig I have is a P239 so it isn’t exactly apples to apples but I’ve handled many Sig firearms that belonged to friends. Really kind of like the argument of Ford vs. Chevy if you ask me. It comes down to preference. Both weapons are great and are combat proven.
My 2 cents.
BTW: Happy Marine Corps Birthday! Ooh-Rah!
if THAT’s the choice? the SIG. i love my HKs and all, but none of them are P30s.
SIG. No question.
If it’s a gun I don’t have to carry, then I choose the Sig. Like the M9 and the CZ75 it’s an accurate, reliable and rugged firearm that’s extremely easy to shoot well. The HK loses points for being slightly snappier and having unfamiliar controls. It’s gets a little back for being lighter.
HK
because I own 2 P30’s, 2 P2000SK’s, and plan on getting a pair of HK45’s when the next group buy comes out.
HK does not suck, and they do not hate you. Anyone who’s ever contacted them for service and support will be more than impressed.
You won’t need to though because HK’s just don’t break.
I’m shopping for a 9mm P2000SK LEM right now. Can’t wait to get my hands on one, and get the trigger set up to mirror my USP40 light LEM.
Anyone who complains about HK triggers has clearly never tried a properly set up LEM gun.
I did, and the trigger felt like it was tied to a brick being pulled across a concrete slab.
The P30’s grip is more comfortable than anything short of a grip custom-molded to your hand. Their triggers completely ruin an otherwise exceptional pistol.
That is completely at odds with my experience with LEM triggers, and I’ve run them in several different setups yielding 4.4, 6.2, and 8 lb pulls. NONE of those felt anything like what you describe.
By any chance was the gun you tried converted to LEM by a “home gunsmith”, or perhaps was it brand-new-in-box with the preservative grease still inside the slide?
Two Glocks.
I’ll stick with my Beretta 92 and if I lost it I’d buy another and use the $500 or $600 I saved on ammo.
A company up here called Dlask used to sell a STEEL-framed version of the P228, all CNC machined, with a Canadian-legal 106mm barrel…
http://www.armchairpatriot.com/Home%20Defense/Construction%20and%20Blueprints/SIG_P228_Hi-Res_Blueprint.pdf
The P30, ut only if it were in Light LEM. I don’t have any experience with the V3, but love the V1. As a matter a fact I traded the PPQ .40 for it. The PPQ was so light , it made the recoil too snappy. I don’t think the P30 is near as snappy, but it weighs more too.
I have to say that the only Sig I have owned was a 2022 .40 and I had to polish the fee ramp 4 times before it would cyclye reliable. I sold it to buy the PPQ. PPQ is a great piece but would like to get one in 9mm M1.
Everyone that regurgitates,”HK sucks and they hate me”has never dealt with their customer service. They repeat the same worn out old post of one man, talk about lemmings.
The P30 would be my choice any day.
However what I would suggest is actually the P30LS V3 now that is a perfect pistol.
The adjustable grips on the P30 are especially great for small hands as while everybody can do big grips, having ones that adjust down small enough is quite rare, plus being able to adjust 3 points on the grip to make it lay in your hand right is pretty nice.
Sig – all day, every day.
I carry a P226 as my conceal carry weapon. Love it, love everything about it.
neither.
get two Glocks for NY reload, instead.
SIG. I’ve always been partial to SIG since the first day I ever shot a gun 14 years ago. My friend took my wife and I out to the range and we shot a variety of handguns including a Colt King Cobra, CZ-75, and 1911, but when we got to the P229 it just felt right – I’ve been a fan ever since and currently own five of them. I regularly carry a P229 in .357 SIG or a P239 in 9mm. Bedside gun is a P226 in 9mm.
I love the controls on the P30. Everything is ambidextrous and easy to reach and operate, even if slick. I can’t find a more comfortable pistol for me. Checking out the forums I learned there are aftermarket modifications for all the important bits. It conceals pretty well for a full size handgun as well. HK’s customer service is fine when you read about it, but the important part is I’ll probably never need to contact them. Most other companies have better CS because they have more practice.
I carry the P30 in .40, and I bought mine as a “broke college kid”, so if you’re using price as the reason to dislike HK you’re making excuses. Price has nothing to do with the gun you feel most comfortable with that you carry everyday.
Operation of the Sig is familiar to me so that would be my choice. They are both great arms.
SIG. The P30 is better for conceal carry (although Glock 26, Shield, Nano are still best for that) but the P30 has a horrific trigger, magazines are way overpriced and aftermarket items are very limited. The SIG retails for the same as the P30 – but comes with nightsights and holds 2 more rounds.
If i want a reliable polymer pistol with great aftermarket support and CS…. I buy a Glock or M&P for nearly 1/2 the price of a polymer HK.
The topic is sig gun vs hk gun which would you choose so it seems your opinion is not relevant to the conversation
Both of these are on my short list to buy. I think I want the HK a little more though. But I think both are great.
As a proud owner of multiple Sig Sauer products (P229R, 1911 TacOps, 1911 Ultra, P290RS, P938 Extreme, AND a SIG516 ) I’ll have to go with Sig. I’ve put many, MANY rounds through all of them, and have been nothing short of impressed with the reliability. I’m not just a Sig fan boy either, I’ve got firearms from Springfield Armory, Smith & Wesson, Benelli, and Taurus. That being said, I’m gonna have to call “BS” on all the talk of Sig Sauer not living up to the hype, they certainly do for me!
Oh too have such a tough choice. I’m and HK fan BUT given the quality and finish of a SIG I would have to flip a coin if my safe contained both. That’s the key, most folks cannot afford either as both HK and SIG would charge a large amount if they marketed a polished Turd with their rollmark. I used to make great money and have a couple of HK’s and love them. SIG was not common in my part of the country and the price was alway at 2x the value even versus the overpriced HK’s. Given the cost I’d go buy a couple of nice Ruger’s (carry and a small backup) I think they are equally reliable and accurate enough for combat conditions. Yes, I have Kimber’s, HK’s, Beretta’s, Ruger’s, Browning High Power, S&W, Colt, Star, Tarus, CZ and even an Astra and at various time over the years carried and shot all of them. Frankly if it was “grab” in terms of a “bugout” weapon I’d chose neither I want something easier to get parts and magazine’s for (hence the Ruger choice) or any 1911 clone. Again, the reason would be availability of parts and spare magazines (try to find SIG mags $$$$) and the aftermarket one are crap.
“Again, the reason would be availability of parts and spare magazines (try to find SIG mags $$$$) and the aftermarket one are crap.”
aaaaww. no. Mec-Gar aftermarket magazines (Made in Italy) are known to be the best and most reliable SIG magazines there are. Some SIGs come with them (“made in Italy” stamped) some come with crappy other magazines (“made in USA” stamped). A 15rd P228 Mec-Gar magazine sells for $20 online. not exactly $$$$.
The Sig. Held one in my hand the other day and it just felt perfect. Plus I’m more accustomed to the Sig’s operation, owning another one myself. But that M1-A11 is nothing but sweetness.
The HK
HK’s seem to fit my hand much better than the Sig’s.
Can I have the HK with Sig’s decocker? If not, I’ll take the Sig.
The P30 is available with a decocking function.
With the LEM trigger you don’t need it. Or a safety.
Heckler und Koch (said in my finest German accent) may find it acceptable to sell a firearm to a mere civilian, but Sig loves us, kinda.
I love my P229 40cal and have carried it for sometime now.
I wanted to get a P229R 9mm with short extractor.
The Pre Cohen M11,P228,P229,P226,MK25 Are Already Proven Design.
I will not buy a Sig P with the new DASH -1 Slide and Long extractor.
Man was I pissed to see the M11A1 .
So YES I’m a new owner of a H&K P30S !
I know I’m not the only Sig fan who feels the same.
Both are fine guns but I’d choose the HK, mainly because I hate the fact that SIG misleads the public and calls the M11A1 a 228. It’s a 229 SAS frame with a regular 229 stainless slide. The 228 had a carbon steel slide. Just putting grips on it that say P228 doesn’t make it one.
Neither. I’m not a gun grabber.
😉
Walther PPQ M2. What’s a decocker? [sarc]
Well, I have just finished reading all of the interesting opinions, thank you for them. In my collection I have a Sig 938 for everyday carry, a glock 19 4th gen and an M11 A1. A few days after buying the M11 I had the opportunity to hold an HK 45. The grip was all it took, but when I read that about the 91,000+/- torture test I was impressed. I bought the HK 45 a few days later, thank god for lay away. Now I am interested in getting the P30 to have a comparable shooting pistol to my HK 45. For those out there that want an M11, mine is for sale unfired for $825 and the Glock for $500. Nothing against Sig as I am keeping my P938 for carry, but I like the half pound weight difference and the grip of the HK. [email protected]
P228 – FTW
In the last 18 months I have gone from no SIGs to 3 SIGs. A 2012 P226, a 2012 P229, and a 2013 P938.
Whomever says that SIG isn’t producing a good pistol now is, quite frankly a complete moron. Come over and take any of the 3 SIGs I have to any test you want, and one thing you will have to admit is that they are of dang fine quality.
You may not like SIGs, and that’s fine, to each his own. There may be another pistol that fits you better, or whatever, and that is why they make dozens of different handguns! But only a jack wad would say SIG quality is no good, all that does is notify everyone that you are an internet know-it-all who should be ignored.
I own a modern Sig M11-A1 (228) 9mm (before Sig Sauer put that stupid anchor on it. As ex Army Sci-Fi, I wouldn’t buy it now), a S&W 5906 tactical 9mm, a Beretta 70s 380 from the 1970’s and a Glock 23 Gen 4 40cal. My wife owns a Sig 224 SAS 9mm, a S&W 908s 9mm and a Glock 19 9mm. WE both carry the Glocks because when together we are using the 2 most common calibers, they are lighter, are more concealable and if they get damaged who cares? Also, in a SHTF scenario and short on ammo I can drop a 9mm barrel in my 23 and it will fire. That said both my wife and I are more accurate with the M11-A1 but in a SHTF situation groups of 2-3 inches is hardly the goal. I read a review once on why everyone should own a Glock. To paraphrase, Yes you might own a Ferrari but if you want good cheap reliable every day transportation that costs relatively nothing to buy, nothing to fix and has plenty of after market options available, you buy a Honda. Glock = Honda. To answer the original question: given a choice of the HK vs the Sig…….. The Sig. simply because I disagree w/ HK’s corporate culture.
What is this HK corporate culture everyone keeps speaking of? I own 4 HK’s and in my 44 years I have never had the quality of service I receive from HK USA from any company in any industry. They send me parts for free with out even confirming I own an HK. They have recently had service repairs turned around and back in the mail in 1 day from date of receipt. The staff is simply incredible.
The HK thing is an Internet phenomena – basically HK is seen on focusing their attention to law enforcement & military communities. This means that you as a lowly civilian, who will only buy 1 or 2 or 5 HK’s in your life, don’t matter to them. They don’t care about your needs / desires, your service, or input.
Internet lore, or the truth? Who knows, but it’s catchy, and most seem to jump on the bandwagon.
I own no HK’s, never have, and my buddies who own gun shops and have lots & lots of guns don’t either.
Why? I have no idea. Just the way it is. HK makes a pretty high end product, so most shooters don’t have one, so the tendency is to bash them I guess. Or maybe HK deserves it.
Sig all the time every time. If you have ever dealt with H&K service department you may understand why. That is my only dealbreaker for H&K.
I have owned both. HK is a better gun in my opinion.
Lets see… mmm.. I would wait until an intruder broke in to my house and them face him unarmed. I would pick up both the Sig and the HK and discuss the various advantages and disadvantages of each with said intruder. I would ask him whether he preferred to be shot with the HK or the Sig. At the same time I would discuss the merits and demerits of shooting him with the Federal HST / Speer Gold dot or the G2 RIP round. I like giving the bad guys options. It is the only humane thing to do. Either I will have completely confused the intruder by now or I would be dead. If after a few minutes of this I find myself to be alive, I will reach for my loaded and chambered Glock 19 and take him out.
Own a sig 220. that being said I buy two GLOCKS, a .45 (21) and 9 millimeter(17) for the same price of one lame sig 9mm, and call it a day….
I bought the H&K P30, because it is ambidextrous and I am left handed. The only “you suck and we hate you” I perceive seems to be coming from Sig, directed to lefties like myself, because those Sig pistols have the most left-hand unfriendly controls that have ever been put in my hands.
In fact, I just last week received top-shelf customer service from H&K. I called them up asking if I could purchase a particular hammer for my P30 which is typically only sold/used in Europe. They were very friendly, and bent over backwards to help me out. In response to my request they told me that they could get one, although they did not have any pricing for it and would have to establish pricing which might take a day or two, but did offer me a price estimate and asked me how I wanted to proceed. I told them to call me if it was much more than the estimate, but otherwise to send it to me when they could. A week later (yesterday) it arrived on my doorstep and they only charged me about half of what their max estimate was..
Granted this whole incident was completely unnecessary for the continued perfect function and performance of my pistol and they could have told me to go pound sand, but they didn’t.
Regarding the whole “aftermarket” question, injecting some critical thought into the debate helps. All those aftermarket triggers for the Glock are great if you want to make a pistol that has a trigger that is unsafe for carry, having what is effectively a cocked single action trigger with no manual safety. H&K has far more modularity built-in to its trigger choices, and I think more safe designs in general. Take your pick: traditional double action decocker (without safety), traditional double action with thumb safety that can be carried cocked and locked, LEM trigger with modular pull weights and trigger return spring rates, etc. Most models can be converted back and forth with the different trigger configurations at will for a nominal cost. H&K gives its customers options, whereas Glock does not.
Aftermarket barrels? I’ll grant that the option of having traditional rifling for shooting lead is nice for those who find value in shooting lead. But often aftermarket barrels are purchased for lower cost pistols just to bring accuracy up to snuff. Once one of these are purchased, the “H&Ks are expensive” argument goes out the window, because the total investment in the Glock is starting to get close in cost. The H&K barrels are typically scary accurate out of the box, so do not need such “improvements,” unless, again, one prefers conventional rifling to polygonal.
Sight selection is one area where Glock aftermarket support shines. Another is support for miniature red dot sights by the likes of Saurez International, ATEi, Unity Tactical, Rogers Shooting School, and Bowie Tactical.
None of this is to dismiss the Glock entirely. I shoot them regularly, and have shot them in competition to good effect. They’re good handguns within their design parameters. But I have come to point where I find that the H&K is a noticeably better handgun for my needs. If I were able to get a high quality barrel for one that had conventional rifling and a quality red dot sight for an H&K, I would see no need for any other centerfire pistol brand in my arsenal.
Having carried M9s and M11s as service weapons, I’d take the M11 without question. I have no experience with the H&K, but enough with the M11 that I am very comfortable with it. Enough so that I purchased a 229R (just before the M11A1s were released).
hi there
a good discussion well for me its a bit late as I already have ordered an HK P30LS V3
any final thoughts from anyone that can endorse my choice.
regards
and stay safe
With only medium sized hands, the controls of most classic SIG pistols are out of reach for my thumb. If I was right-handed.
Models like the P-226 (which I own), P-228, P-229 with double stacked magazines.
However, since I am left-handed, the magazine release and decocker are easily accessed with my index finger with only minor adjustment on the grip hand. The slide release takes more effort and does mean that the hand must be moved quite a bit on the grip when manipulating the release.
But that’s not a problem either. With a little practice, releasing the slide manually just after inserting a fresh magazine is quick and easy- and safer.
I also own a single stack P-239 and find the controls just as easy to use as a southpaw.
While I really like the HK P30, I’d choose the SIG. IVE OWNED Sigs for years, and have had very good experiences with customer service. The SIG pistol would match my 556 better than the HK as an ensemble.
Lol why not an FN? At least the Belgians like you.
Man a lot of retarded responses on here. HK hate’s you? Really? That’s what’s stopping a lot of you retards from buying the finest, most durable firearms out there? Oh well, more for me I guess.
amen brother.
truth is Hk’s cost more than Sigs (as they should) and a lot of people cant afford them, and most people that buy a gun dont know crap about firearms. Hk doesnt spend money on advertisement, sig does caz their cheesy. Hk only cares about spending money on more research and development to keep making the most over engineered firearms on the planet. that said average joe doesnt even know what Hk is. i only own Hk’s. ive only met one other person in real life that owns Hk’s and he was a rich doctor. i cant rant and rave all day why Hk is King….but il just sum it up like this…..what would you rather trust your life and familys life to- Made in GERMANY or made in exeter new hampshire?
“Yeah I’m that guy” did an excellent job describing what most of us that chose Sig (yes, I did) are thinking. Once upon a time the answer would have been HK hands down. But unfortunately HK has been riding it’s reputation far too long. The HK of today is a good example of how low a great weapon manufacturer can fall. That said, ask me if I would like to conceal carry my M11-A1 “brick” all day long and the answer is Glock 23 thank you. If I lived in an area where a light jacket was needed year round my Sig would be in a OWB hip holster all the time. Alas it’s 95 today and I’m wearing a T shirt so it’s IWB and the 23 or my S&W 908s depending on how tight the T-shirt is. Remember guys the question is which would you grab not own and carry every day
Sorry, one more point. I was one of the people that had issues with HK’s customer service. My previous comment that I had a problem with “HK’s corporate culture” was not a case of HK bashing but it wasn’t based on personal experience either.
The facts are that everyone I know that owns a HK has complained at some point about how they were treated by HK. Those same people are now seemingly are praising HK’s efforts at correcting their service. It appears that HK recognized they had a real and a perseption problem and has gone to great lengths to correct it. GOOD! That is what a company that cares about their customers and their bottom line should do. HK seems to have succeeded. Still, I would chose the SIG. All modern weapons have cut corners in quality to maintain their price point compared to 20+ years ago. I would choose a modern Sig over HK because I think HK has made some choices I would rather they hadn’t (plastic). Sig has also made changes to reduce costs but in my opinion they just made better choices. In the end in the original emergency scenario the differences are so minor either one would be fine. On a off topic issue: the caliber /stopping power issue. I can only repeat the best advice I ever heard, Whichever pistol you are most comfortable with (ergonomics, controls, action, recoil and caliber) and whichever pistol you are able to put your shots on target during true practice drills (I don’t mean standing at a range taking a shot every 20 seconds) is the pistol you should carry. What good is a 45acp if you can’t handle the recoil? Caliber is irrelevant if you can’t hit your target. Granted, over time your ability to handle larger calibers may improve but it’s still all about what you can put on target consistently in every conceivable stressful situation that matters.
I support both HK and SIG as reliable firearms. In this particular comparison I would have to go with the SIG because the from for the
M11 A1 was originally designed for a .40 cal. This provides better holdup against the wear and tear or super hot loads. So if your going to shoot +p or +p+ I’d surely go with the SIG. Not to mention that it has a full length guide rods. And a de cocker that has a 2 stage safety system integrally that provides the greatest stability when carrying with one in the chamber. This was my selling point hands down. Not to add another durability factor in that all of the internal components are phosphate coated to prevent rust. Did I mention it’ll bring you a beer???
I have several H&K’s, Glocks, Sigs, and other guns in my collection. Over the years I have bought and sold many flavors of each gun. I did have a P30 in 9mm but sold it recently and got a VP9. I prefer it much better. I also recently purchased the M11 A, and a 226 MK25 they are both in 9mm both desert tan (Sweet guns). Then 2 weeks ago I picked up a used 226 40 caliber with nite sites and light rail at a great price. So here’s what I think for my preference. I love both brands. My only issues with the Sigs is they are heavy, and the fat grip and I have to run a Hogue grip over that because the front of the grip where it’s aluminium is very slick in my hand. I have tried the replacement rubber grips but dont care for them. I carry my HK’S concealed and my Sigs out of waistband when I go camping or on my quad in the mountains, sometimes in a thigh rig. I would say if you can, save up and OWN BOTH. You can’t go wrong either way. All of my HK’S and Sigs have never let me down. Both have been dead on accurate.
I have both of the guns in this article. I like them both and have carried them on and off duty. Of the two, the HK grip is better. The sig however is the better shooting pistol. The extra weight, balance, and most importantly the trigger (which is light years better than the p30s) makes the biggest difference. I’ve had Zero problems with either and would have no problem choosing one or the other. If you’re asking me which is the nicer psitol, then I’d say the sig.
own 5 sigs, 5 S & W, and 11 glocks.
I’d grab a glock. End of story.
I was at Cabelas last week and they have the Sig M1 A11 currently for $749 regular price . It has the Sig night sights and three 15 round mags. They also have the HK P30 SK (sub compact) with charge luminescent sights on sale for $599. I’m going tomorrow night and getting both.
I bought a sig m11a1. As anyone with an M11a1 knows…they were known when they first came out to have an issue with the extractor and the fact it is built on a 40 frame instead of the 9mm frame the real 228 is. I own a real 228 that was israeli issued and made in w. germany. Never a malfunction. I can’t count the amount of times my m11a1 malfunctioned. I sent it to sig. Told them a 1000 dollar gun shouldn’t malfunction. They said they replaced the extractor and spring. That thing still malfunctioned. Garbage. I’ll buy old sig stuff for more than the new sig stuff. HK may be expensive because they refuse to make american made parts, and we get the importation tax. But who cares. I now have two p30’s, kept my real p228, and the vp9. Atleast HK makes guns of function and doesn’t pander. Caring about the market is making a good product…not guns that malfunction that are american made, german marketed rainbow pieces of shit. Sig cares too much about mass producing and the civilian market now. Plus…anytime I have called HK they have been more than awesome. They even called me back when they had mags ready and also gave me a free mag catch on my p30 when the thing started to turn purple. It happens because bluing doesn’t hold well on case hardened steel like the hk sports on their moving parts. Don’t get me wrong early 2000 and 90’s sigs are the shit….but now…I’ll stick with HK who just focuses on making a quality gun without pandering or caring who buys it.
Sigs are good guns. I had a 226 and absolutely loved it – the only exception was it had some flaws on the frame that were NOT typical of Sig. So I traded the P-226 for a 3″ Smith Model 65 ( .357 ) and a leather holster.
I now have an H&K VP-9 and it is an alright gun, accurate – but in testing it does not shoot a tighter or better group than my Glock 17.
I don’t believe H&K can make a better gun than the H&K USP compact with the combination thumb safety and decocker. H&Ks and Glocks both have one advantage – Polygonal Rifling. With polygonal rifling……it allows you to shoot farther, and more accurate than with traditional land and groove rifling. My standard for a Self Defense primary gun ( not a J Frame or a small .22 or .380 ) is that the center of the target must be hit at fifty yards downrange. I had a USP Compact in .45 ACP that I could shoot farther than that…..about 65 or 70 yards ; and my Glock 17 with 115 Full Metal jackets…….lets me shoot at 80 yards and extremely accurate.
I envision a Sig P-228 ( no rails…equals a plus – plus for me ) or P-229 ( I don’t like the rails on a 229 ) with 147+P hollow points being a formidable weapon. A heavy bullet with better energy. Or for wide open spaces – like a metropolitan parking lot where shots can be at 100 yards —-> 115 +P hollow points that have that velocity and flat shooting.
Sometimes……your handgun and ammo has to be tailored to the area / location you will be in.
A handgun in a holster on your strong side – and a combination leather holster on your weak side with a flashlight and extra magazine —-> And a Glock 19……… and especially a Glock 17 fits the bill well as you have 35 rounds of ammo ( two 17 round mags and one in the chamber ) for self defense. Same scenario with a Sig P-228 would work…..but maybe with an extra mag or two in the glove department……just in case you ran into the REALLY – REALLY bad part of town.
Compact handguns that are formidable at short and moderate ranges like the Sig 228 and 229 series – and do not bind or “dig into you” when you sit down………Or a gun with volumes with firepower like a Glock 17 …..and the explosive energy of the Glock 22 – .40 caliber?
The handgun and caliber debate is as old as the hills and ole wise tales of our grandfathers. But seldom does anyone look at history, fact based events…….and see what has worked in the past.
———— “Diamond”
Sig…any Sig. Don’t care bout political crap with HK, I’ve owned 2. They just “fit” me. After shooting, the “fit” isn’t helpful at all compensating for those silky smooth Sig triggers. Shot as well DAO Sig as I have SA HK. There’s something about the tingle you feel when you grip a gun and it sits just right, but I’ll take a gun that’s a bit “thin” with a trigger that I can drive tacks with over one that “fits” but I can’t hit with that trigger for squat.
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