Putting the action near my face does not seem like it would be comfortable. But I have never held a bullpup, so, what do I know?
Also, seems like changing the magazine would take more movement.
Does that make me a hater?
Nah…I’ve held several. I’ll pass. I know they have heavy trigger’s which suck.
Never fired one, but can’t believe they could have a good trigger and I’m slightly a snob because I’m lame and mostly just bench shoot.
We had a bullpup range day last month with a Desert Tech MDR, a Steyr a couple of Tavors a Keltec RDB and a Springfield Hellion. One Tavor had an after market trigger all other firearms were stock. Ranking the triggers I would have to go: after market Tavor and MDR very good RDB the Hellion and stock Tavor OK
and Steyr horrible. This is in comparison to the four pound trigger on my ‘not an AR’.
i have held a desert tech hti (bullpup .50, i didn’t shoot it, but dry fired it), fn p90 (got to shoot it), and i own a ksg and hs10b. i can definitely say that desert tech makes the best bullpup triggers, followed by keltech. while the p90 was fun to shoot the trigger was absolute shit, comparable to the steyr aug. hs10b isn’t terrible, but isn’t great either
“Putting the action near my face does not seem like it would be comfortable.”
It’s… Different.
The only one I fired was a Steyer AUG, and the design is better set up for someone who prefers a shorter length-of-pull, IMO…
Lots of “never fired one but they must suck” in these comments. Not sure how useful those type of comments are. Typically older design bullpup triggers have sucked (AUG, which I HAVE held and fired is one example). However, modern bullpups like the X95 and others (Keltec and also MDR) actually have triggers equal to or better than AR-15 milspec. I OWN and shoot an X95 and also a Tavor SAR so I DO have experience. I don’t have any issue with the action being a few inches closer to my face.
I don’t have any AK’s or AR’s and I don’t like bull pups either.
I like both of the repeaters but my finances don’t. So I’ll stick with my milsurp and commercial bolt actions.
Just.
Get.
Out.
Why?
All of the milsurps I like are three times or more expensive than a quite serviceable AR.
Milsurps are a real addiction. I’ve had up to 20 at a time counting handguns. And it never seems to end.
I finally got too old to be devoting that much time to cleaning them. I gave most away.
thought, he’s engaged to multiple individuals?
bullpups are so bad
theyre even worse than aks
I had a chance to fire a Steyr AUG back in the 90s. Not impressed. I’ll honestly say it’s the worst trigger I’ve ever used. Even a Mosin-Nagant trigger is an improvement.
The balance with all the weight at the back meant the rifle had pronounced muzzle flip when fired.
And the aiming ring in the optical sight was bigger than the 3-ring on our 4′ target. The ring was 3feet across at 200m. At least the Kiwis were smart and had the sight lines converge into a crosshair. The Australian version had the sight lines stop at the ring.
It is a ‘dead’ feeling trigger. For some folks, it works for them…
I saw that one of those services were still carrying the AUGs in 2003. Not sure if they were from NZ, Australia. UN checkpoint in Iraq. I’ve shot them a few times. The reversible bolt design is cool.
THe next US Issue Rifle is likely to be a Bull-Pup design MOsy who take issue with bull-pups have never used one and that’s very obvious because I have . I used the SA80 for 7 years and I know it’s p in all probabilitynTHE most accutare Infantry Rifle out there and by the way innthe Rifle version it a SEMI mnot a full Auto but it does include three shot facitlity> Wht ‘3’ Shot? because that’s about bthe maximum you can fire on auto and still reamin on aiming point, and I can vouch for that. The SA80 was deliberately reatively heavy as well [it weighs around the saame as the FN SLR7.62 it replaced so as to maintain it’s aiming point and reduce recoil to practically nothing. It come’s, in the Infantry version complete wiith a 4x SUSAT sight . The early versions had their probs but I can honestly say that in seven years I did not have a single stoppage or breakage and my personal ammo issue was in excess of a 1000 rounds a year . The ammo issue was actually on a PLATOON/ COMPANY scaling so if the platoon was under manned, as they usually were for various reasons, the ammo was shared out equally. The actual, personal scaling was I think 660 rounds for range practices. The SA80 did have it’s share of mechanical problems and was for sure not as Soldier Ptoof’ as the 7.62 SLR but bthen so did the SLR on it’s intrduction when it replaced the Lee-Enfield No4 .303 which was just about THE most Soldier Proof Rifle ever issued to anyone. But so did the original 5.56 calibres issued to the US Forces especially in VIETNAM. What is less well known is the the actual mechanism is taken directly from the original COLT AR.
AS for the trigger action I think that most of the criticism is taken from what had s been read about rather than personal experience. Why ? Because those that make the criticisms do not also address the real advantages of the Bull-Pup design which were taken up by most of NATO outside of the USA. I trained onnthe No4 and and the 7.62 SLR as well as thge SA80 and as a Smallarms Instructor trained others on them as well and I cannot say I ever found the trigger’action as being problematical on any not them. . They were all different weapond designed for slightly different purpose.#
Back inn the days of Empire it took at6 least six months hard slog to train a man tom use the LEE-ENFIELD as it was meant to be used and MUsketry was at the very, very centre of Army Training so every single thing was designed to that effect.
Who can forget the double trgger pull of the Lee-Enfield. That trigger pull through first and second pressures was a central point of Armourer Training on the LE and require a measure of skill to get right using a whet-stone. Then there was the breathing exercises we had to teach. A few like me could slow their ‘heartbeat’ to under 400 persec for short periods and the trick was to ‘shoot’ between heart beats. This was actually a personal adaptation and most could not do it but those that could had what was known as ‘insight.’. Some, once again like me, could watch the bullet down rang to target strike through your marker ‘scope as well. [You were not actually seeing the bullet of course but the shock wave of it’s passing]. What was still a bit of a mystery was that you could see the bullet bouncing around in X-winds, however slight, and in the differing air densities over the 600 yard BISLEY RANGES but they still went where you aimed so I suppose everything sort of evened out.
A couple of days ago my kid told me. ” Yeah Dad, I know all those old stories are cool and all, but I’ve heard them a zillion times.
Your getting old.”
I thought about that a bit and thought ” Wow maybe I should by a Glock?”
the older I get, the better I was !!
You are really Fucking stupid. The next US issue rifle has already been announced, months ago, and it’s not a bull pup. SIG won out the contract on that and the new MG. Maybe go do some actual research bud.
you can slow your heartbeat to under 400 per second? what are you, a shrew?
hummingbird headmistress.
The SA80 was an attempt to make a bullpup AR-18. But they made it less reliable in the process. It wasn’t until the A3 variant redesigned by H&K did it actually improve.
Through the 80s and 90s, the SA80 was rejected in the first round of acceptance trials for every foreign military it was offered to.
Ian’s Forgotten Weapons has a good history on the gun..
I love my FN PS90. It’s a “bullpup”.
What about bullpup AR’s and AK’s?
They exist, like the bullpup chassis for the Ruger Mini-14 :
My buddy has one. Very nice shotgun. I’m a lefty so no go. Forgot if it was adjustable for left hand ejection.
IWI can build you a lefty for a price. 🙂
As an aside a Manticore muzzle break and far better butt pad are available, which essentially eliminates any muzzle flip and harsh recoil. Much more controllable than a common pump gun. I have a Vortex red dot on mine in addition to the Manticore stuff, which gives more than adequate accuracy with Brenneke slugs out to 100yds. A bad guy really wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of this gun.
Downside is that with a full load of 16 it’s a heavy beast.
Weight and bulk are the only imperfections in that amazing design.
I’d love to see one in 20ga. I’d also love to see someone apply the same mag design to a light carbine (semi, lever, etc.), where it wouldn’t be that bulky at all.
No comment on the bullpup issue but props for using a pic of Kei Shirogane and Chika Fujiwara for the meme!
What are they from? I don’t know that anime.
Love is War the anime my dude.
Waifu for laifu bros
Peace
The full name is Kaguya-sama: Love is War. There’s been three seasons of the anime so far.
As if private citizens in Japan can lawfully bear militia-suitable rifles.
Bullpup advantages-
Longer barrel without longer OAL
Easier to handle in close spaces, like inside vehicles
Generally lightweight, due to extensive use of polymers
Bullpup disadvantages-
Generally gritty, loosey-goosey trigger/FCG
Side ejection port uncomfortably close to face
Awkward to reload
Some designs use a bottom or forward ejection system, which avoids face-kiss issues but can have their own problems reliability-wise.
A non-bullpup can easily be a pound lighter with the same composite construction. A bullpup trades space for weight due to the extra mechanics, linkages, and increased shoulder-rail height. An easy example to compare/study is the Keltec RDB vs the SU-16.
The RDB has a long, sturdy stamped-steel receiver, not “the same composite construction” as the all-plastic SU-16 at all. “The extra mechanics, linkages” are two sheet-metal hammer bars weighing about an ounce.
Also, the slightly heavier RDB balances much better in one hand (a constant concern in home defense) than the SU, where the weight is all in the barrel.
Pup trigger woes can be fixed. Primarily the issue is slop in the linkage coupled with a poorly implemented back end. I have a design that popped into mind about 10 years ago to eliminate all of the play causing the binding issues that plagues bullpup’s, but it is more viable for conversions than retrofits.
I don’t have the financial wherewithall to bring it into the light, and certainly not willing to sign over rights to do so.
Agreed. Push-type linkages are the worst because of deflection. Forward-seared actions can offer a great feel, but require the most workarounds. The easiest way to get a good bullpup trigger is usually a linkage that pulls the sear forward, as long as there’s a reasonably straight line to the trigger.
I’ve had the opportunity to handle a couple different bullpup firearms. Like many things, great in theory and on paper. Not so great in real life use. And, perhaps if the first weapon someone uses is a military version bullpup, they may be more comfortable with it. Myself, they just feel awkward and are a but clumsy to reload. I’ll pass. No hate involved. Just not for me.
I like my AR, tolerate my AK, and really enjoy shooting my downward ejecting bullpup which has a best stock trigger of all. The bullpup is just more fun.
I have never fired one but have handled a few to see how they felt and sighted in. Not very bad for me to shoulder and it seems like a good concept but the more I hear about actually using one leads me to the conclusion that it isn’t for me at this time. Maybe after I win the lottery, which I never play as I don’t like gambling.
Look at this kit. Any of you with a mismatched(non collectable) SKS might like it https://sgworks.com
Curious not much love for bullpups. Don’t have any experience besides the KSG and RDB. Definitely easier to navigate the interior of my home with the KSG, opening doors while one handing the KSG is easier than a 590. Would also think it harder for an adversary to grab or swat your gun if things get real close.
My thoughts exactly (happy RDB owner, except I replaced my KSG with a TS12 after leaving the CSSR). Home defense constantly requires the support hand for something or other. Bullpup balance right over the grip is ideal.
Get a Tavor.
The trigger is just fine.
Of course a Ruger Mini-14 with a folding stock is great if you can fire from the hip while smoking a cigar. My daughter does a great impersonation of Colonel Hannibal Smith although she closely resembles the Terminatrix that was kicking Arnold Schwartzeneger’s ass in T3.
Elmer:
Back in the day I was trained on the M1 Carbine, and it is still my favorite sixty some years later. (Mine’s a repro.) Recently acquired a Mini 14 Tactical, but the “jury” is still out on that one.
i want a braced 10″ .30 cal.
also known as a carbine caliber pistol.
.300BLK gives Carbine ballistics out of a ~7″ barrel (but with more streamlined bullets), making it possible to achieve Carbine performance from a firearm with an overall length equal to a Carbine barrel alone. I’m in the middle of building exactly that.
Umm…
I have the Springfield Saint 300blk pistol. This is an excellent CQC pistol. Trying to find info as to why Springfield discontinued it but not having much luck.
7.62×35 is starting to look very practical, i think i’d want more barrel, but not much.
the sa saint pistol is now called the victor.
check out the fightlite raider scr-300pm.
need a review, please.
Muckraker,
Very cool! Mine is a Robinson XCR.
tsbhoa.p.jr,
About 10″ seems to be ideal (check out the BRN-180). I chose 7″ as a challenge to develop a PDW that can replace a pistol.
Right. The BRN is an AR-18 upper for an AR-15 lower.
What is “twss”?
I guess I’m neutral on this one. Have AR’s AK’s, Steyr AUG and a Tavor X95. The Steyr is the best bullpup out of the box, the X95 beats it with a Geissele trigger. That said, you just spent $1700 on a rifle only to add a $300 trigger just to make it as nice as a Tapco AK. You won’t touch a Geissele AR Trigger with a bullpup. Where the bullpups shine is with a can. My Tavor is a couple of inches shorter with a can than a 16″ AR without. Life is full of tradeoffs…this is one of them…and I used to make more money than I do now. So if I’m operating operationally on someone else’s dime, hand me the X95 with the Geissele. Otherwise, there’s always a tacticool lever gun for when I want to be different.
BTW, the anime rocks.
Curious not much love for bullpups. Don’t have any experience besides the KSG and RDB. Definitely easier to navigate the interior of my home with the KSG, opening doors while one handing the KSG is easier than a 590. Would also think it harder for an adversary to grab or swat your gun if things get real close.
Be hating on something?
It’d be great if people quit thinking ghetto level “English” is cute and start speaking and writing properly. A lot of people are seriously tired of that stuff.
word, yo.
scrilla.
The Israelis adopted the X95 after strenuous testing of the two platforms. They concluded it beat the M4 in every category. To me they are too uncomfortable BUT just a tid bit for you. They were also the Israeli service weapon of choice two years before we hear about them here.
The Lee Enfield L85A1 (Bullpup)still considered to be the worst modern military rifle every made.
Poor manufacturing was the problem.
Do not diss the Jew Pews from IWI, or the Zohan will get you! (LOL)
The Tavor X95, Tavor 7, and TS12 are all great bullpups. So whether you like 5.56NATO, .308, or 12ga, there’s a bullpup for you. BTW, the X95 and Tavor 7 use Magpul mags so there’s no need to go hunting for rare/esoteric magazines. The X95 also uses NATO mags, and the Tavor 7 uses standard LR/SR magazines.
Side note: I actually prefer the Black Aces Tactical FD12 bullpup over the TS12 because of the detachable magazine design. Using a HSGI 6-mag shingle on my PC, I can carry twice as much ammo as the TS12 can (+1 mag), and reload far quicker with theFD12’s 5-round box mags combined than a full reload of the TS12 rotary 15rd magazine with loose 12ga rounds. Either way, these two 12ga bullpups are magnitudes of order better than any other 12ga semiauto bullpup in existence!
Not so sure the TS-12 is inferior to the FD12 regarding reloading. Takes a little practice, but it’s easy to reload an empty mag tube on the TS-12 on the fly either from the left or right (depending on which way you rotate the mag tubes) while you still have 10 + 1 rounds on board. Don’t have to wait till you are totally empty. 🙂 Competition shell carriers help with this.
I am far from a “nobody needs more than a 5rd snubbie” guy, but from a practical POV it’s difficult to foresee any situation where one would need to tactically reload a TS12. Just taking the worst-case handgun engagement and correcting for the Ph of a shoulder-fired weapon, Pk of 12ga, spread of shot, etc.
That’s true of course. At least for the present. But it’s nice to know you have the capability if circumstances deteriorate to Bellum Omnium Contra Omnes. 😉
Excellent point, Gunny👍
Any views on the Keltec RFB and Desert Tech MDRX?
Some day that bull pup will grow up to be a bull terrier.
I was going to say dog but bulldog is to British and Alebert Halls soured me on the UK.
Bull Terrier, Pappy Boyingtton, George Patton.
and the mackenzie spud gun.
Media downplays ‘good Samaritan’ narrative following Indiana shooting, firearms experts weigh in
after Uvalde and the mall I dont think the people are much listening to the medias anti gunm propaganda.
Bullpups suck so much that even China tried to copy western bullpup designs with their QBZ-95 series of infantry rifles, which essentially still had an AK action inside for about two decades and then ultimately decided to go back to a traditional carbine style in the QBZ-191. Looks like another copy mismatch of a Beretta ARX, a Sig 550 and an AR style rifle.
I always thought the F2000 was an underrated gun.
Buddy had a Boberg XR9-S 9mm back about 10 years or so ago. We took it to the range with us and somehow managed to jam that damn gun so bad we ended up giving up and taking it to a shop. Gunsmith was able to finally free it and told him you need to sell that thing. Way to complex a mechanism and its going to jam again and again.
I think he kept it a year or so longer and did end up selling it to some sucker during one of the panics.
Was a cool looking gun, guaranteed to have folks do a double take when he had it out.
Putting the action near my face does not seem like it would be comfortable. But I have never held a bullpup, so, what do I know?
Also, seems like changing the magazine would take more movement.
Does that make me a hater?
Nah…I’ve held several. I’ll pass. I know they have heavy trigger’s which suck.
Never fired one, but can’t believe they could have a good trigger and I’m slightly a snob because I’m lame and mostly just bench shoot.
We had a bullpup range day last month with a Desert Tech MDR, a Steyr a couple of Tavors a Keltec RDB and a Springfield Hellion. One Tavor had an after market trigger all other firearms were stock. Ranking the triggers I would have to go: after market Tavor and MDR very good RDB the Hellion and stock Tavor OK
and Steyr horrible. This is in comparison to the four pound trigger on my ‘not an AR’.
i have held a desert tech hti (bullpup .50, i didn’t shoot it, but dry fired it), fn p90 (got to shoot it), and i own a ksg and hs10b. i can definitely say that desert tech makes the best bullpup triggers, followed by keltech. while the p90 was fun to shoot the trigger was absolute shit, comparable to the steyr aug. hs10b isn’t terrible, but isn’t great either
“Putting the action near my face does not seem like it would be comfortable.”
It’s… Different.
The only one I fired was a Steyer AUG, and the design is better set up for someone who prefers a shorter length-of-pull, IMO…
Lots of “never fired one but they must suck” in these comments. Not sure how useful those type of comments are. Typically older design bullpup triggers have sucked (AUG, which I HAVE held and fired is one example). However, modern bullpups like the X95 and others (Keltec and also MDR) actually have triggers equal to or better than AR-15 milspec. I OWN and shoot an X95 and also a Tavor SAR so I DO have experience. I don’t have any issue with the action being a few inches closer to my face.
I don’t have any AK’s or AR’s and I don’t like bull pups either.
I like both of the repeaters but my finances don’t. So I’ll stick with my milsurp and commercial bolt actions.
Just.
Get.
Out.
Why?
All of the milsurps I like are three times or more expensive than a quite serviceable AR.
Milsurps are a real addiction. I’ve had up to 20 at a time counting handguns. And it never seems to end.
I finally got too old to be devoting that much time to cleaning them. I gave most away.
thought, he’s engaged to multiple individuals?
bullpups are so bad
theyre even worse than aks
I had a chance to fire a Steyr AUG back in the 90s. Not impressed. I’ll honestly say it’s the worst trigger I’ve ever used. Even a Mosin-Nagant trigger is an improvement.
The balance with all the weight at the back meant the rifle had pronounced muzzle flip when fired.
And the aiming ring in the optical sight was bigger than the 3-ring on our 4′ target. The ring was 3feet across at 200m. At least the Kiwis were smart and had the sight lines converge into a crosshair. The Australian version had the sight lines stop at the ring.
It is a ‘dead’ feeling trigger. For some folks, it works for them…
I saw that one of those services were still carrying the AUGs in 2003. Not sure if they were from NZ, Australia. UN checkpoint in Iraq. I’ve shot them a few times. The reversible bolt design is cool.
THe next US Issue Rifle is likely to be a Bull-Pup design MOsy who take issue with bull-pups have never used one and that’s very obvious because I have . I used the SA80 for 7 years and I know it’s p in all probabilitynTHE most accutare Infantry Rifle out there and by the way innthe Rifle version it a SEMI mnot a full Auto but it does include three shot facitlity> Wht ‘3’ Shot? because that’s about bthe maximum you can fire on auto and still reamin on aiming point, and I can vouch for that. The SA80 was deliberately reatively heavy as well [it weighs around the saame as the FN SLR7.62 it replaced so as to maintain it’s aiming point and reduce recoil to practically nothing. It come’s, in the Infantry version complete wiith a 4x SUSAT sight . The early versions had their probs but I can honestly say that in seven years I did not have a single stoppage or breakage and my personal ammo issue was in excess of a 1000 rounds a year . The ammo issue was actually on a PLATOON/ COMPANY scaling so if the platoon was under manned, as they usually were for various reasons, the ammo was shared out equally. The actual, personal scaling was I think 660 rounds for range practices. The SA80 did have it’s share of mechanical problems and was for sure not as Soldier Ptoof’ as the 7.62 SLR but bthen so did the SLR on it’s intrduction when it replaced the Lee-Enfield No4 .303 which was just about THE most Soldier Proof Rifle ever issued to anyone. But so did the original 5.56 calibres issued to the US Forces especially in VIETNAM. What is less well known is the the actual mechanism is taken directly from the original COLT AR.
AS for the trigger action I think that most of the criticism is taken from what had s been read about rather than personal experience. Why ? Because those that make the criticisms do not also address the real advantages of the Bull-Pup design which were taken up by most of NATO outside of the USA. I trained onnthe No4 and and the 7.62 SLR as well as thge SA80 and as a Smallarms Instructor trained others on them as well and I cannot say I ever found the trigger’action as being problematical on any not them. . They were all different weapond designed for slightly different purpose.#
Back inn the days of Empire it took at6 least six months hard slog to train a man tom use the LEE-ENFIELD as it was meant to be used and MUsketry was at the very, very centre of Army Training so every single thing was designed to that effect.
Who can forget the double trgger pull of the Lee-Enfield. That trigger pull through first and second pressures was a central point of Armourer Training on the LE and require a measure of skill to get right using a whet-stone. Then there was the breathing exercises we had to teach. A few like me could slow their ‘heartbeat’ to under 400 persec for short periods and the trick was to ‘shoot’ between heart beats. This was actually a personal adaptation and most could not do it but those that could had what was known as ‘insight.’. Some, once again like me, could watch the bullet down rang to target strike through your marker ‘scope as well. [You were not actually seeing the bullet of course but the shock wave of it’s passing]. What was still a bit of a mystery was that you could see the bullet bouncing around in X-winds, however slight, and in the differing air densities over the 600 yard BISLEY RANGES but they still went where you aimed so I suppose everything sort of evened out.
A couple of days ago my kid told me. ” Yeah Dad, I know all those old stories are cool and all, but I’ve heard them a zillion times.
Your getting old.”
I thought about that a bit and thought ” Wow maybe I should by a Glock?”
the older I get, the better I was !!
You are really Fucking stupid. The next US issue rifle has already been announced, months ago, and it’s not a bull pup. SIG won out the contract on that and the new MG. Maybe go do some actual research bud.
you can slow your heartbeat to under 400 per second? what are you, a shrew?
hummingbird headmistress.
The SA80 was an attempt to make a bullpup AR-18. But they made it less reliable in the process. It wasn’t until the A3 variant redesigned by H&K did it actually improve.
Through the 80s and 90s, the SA80 was rejected in the first round of acceptance trials for every foreign military it was offered to.
Ian’s Forgotten Weapons has a good history on the gun..
I love my FN PS90. It’s a “bullpup”.
What about bullpup AR’s and AK’s?
They exist, like the bullpup chassis for the Ruger Mini-14 :
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ruger+Mini-14+bullpup+stock&source=hp&ei=grXYYua5Evr-wbkP9aq3kAs&iflsig=AJiK0e8AAAAAYtjDkrBqMTsip92-4JLAH7HTmhoSnHE6&ved=0ahUKEwjmgu6884j5AhV6fzABHXXVDbIQ4dUDCAg&uact=5&oq=Ruger+Mini-14+bullpup+stock&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6FAgAEOoCELQCEIoDELcDENQDEOUCOhEIABDqAhC0AhCKAxC3AxDlAjoFCAAQgAQ6BggAEB4QFjoFCAAQhgNQiA5Ym1tgoGloAXAAeACAAdgBiAGfD5IBBjAuMTQuMZgBAKABAqABAbABCg&sclient=gws-wiz
The enemy of my enemy is also my enemy.
I could align with that.
Feels a bit childish to me.
Real men have a 12 gauge Bullpup. Mine is a TS12.
My buddy has one. Very nice shotgun. I’m a lefty so no go. Forgot if it was adjustable for left hand ejection.
IWI can build you a lefty for a price. 🙂
As an aside a Manticore muzzle break and far better butt pad are available, which essentially eliminates any muzzle flip and harsh recoil. Much more controllable than a common pump gun. I have a Vortex red dot on mine in addition to the Manticore stuff, which gives more than adequate accuracy with Brenneke slugs out to 100yds. A bad guy really wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of this gun.
Downside is that with a full load of 16 it’s a heavy beast.
Weight and bulk are the only imperfections in that amazing design.
I’d love to see one in 20ga. I’d also love to see someone apply the same mag design to a light carbine (semi, lever, etc.), where it wouldn’t be that bulky at all.
No comment on the bullpup issue but props for using a pic of Kei Shirogane and Chika Fujiwara for the meme!
What are they from? I don’t know that anime.
Love is War the anime my dude.
Waifu for laifu bros
Peace
The full name is Kaguya-sama: Love is War. There’s been three seasons of the anime so far.
As if private citizens in Japan can lawfully bear militia-suitable rifles.
Bullpup advantages-
Longer barrel without longer OAL
Easier to handle in close spaces, like inside vehicles
Generally lightweight, due to extensive use of polymers
Bullpup disadvantages-
Generally gritty, loosey-goosey trigger/FCG
Side ejection port uncomfortably close to face
Awkward to reload
Some designs use a bottom or forward ejection system, which avoids face-kiss issues but can have their own problems reliability-wise.
A non-bullpup can easily be a pound lighter with the same composite construction. A bullpup trades space for weight due to the extra mechanics, linkages, and increased shoulder-rail height. An easy example to compare/study is the Keltec RDB vs the SU-16.
The RDB has a long, sturdy stamped-steel receiver, not “the same composite construction” as the all-plastic SU-16 at all. “The extra mechanics, linkages” are two sheet-metal hammer bars weighing about an ounce.
Also, the slightly heavier RDB balances much better in one hand (a constant concern in home defense) than the SU, where the weight is all in the barrel.
Pup trigger woes can be fixed. Primarily the issue is slop in the linkage coupled with a poorly implemented back end. I have a design that popped into mind about 10 years ago to eliminate all of the play causing the binding issues that plagues bullpup’s, but it is more viable for conversions than retrofits.
I don’t have the financial wherewithall to bring it into the light, and certainly not willing to sign over rights to do so.
Agreed. Push-type linkages are the worst because of deflection. Forward-seared actions can offer a great feel, but require the most workarounds. The easiest way to get a good bullpup trigger is usually a linkage that pulls the sear forward, as long as there’s a reasonably straight line to the trigger.
I’ve had the opportunity to handle a couple different bullpup firearms. Like many things, great in theory and on paper. Not so great in real life use. And, perhaps if the first weapon someone uses is a military version bullpup, they may be more comfortable with it. Myself, they just feel awkward and are a but clumsy to reload. I’ll pass. No hate involved. Just not for me.
I like my AR, tolerate my AK, and really enjoy shooting my downward ejecting bullpup which has a best stock trigger of all. The bullpup is just more fun.
I have never fired one but have handled a few to see how they felt and sighted in. Not very bad for me to shoulder and it seems like a good concept but the more I hear about actually using one leads me to the conclusion that it isn’t for me at this time. Maybe after I win the lottery, which I never play as I don’t like gambling.
Look at this kit. Any of you with a mismatched(non collectable) SKS might like it
https://sgworks.com
Curious not much love for bullpups. Don’t have any experience besides the KSG and RDB. Definitely easier to navigate the interior of my home with the KSG, opening doors while one handing the KSG is easier than a 590. Would also think it harder for an adversary to grab or swat your gun if things get real close.
My thoughts exactly (happy RDB owner, except I replaced my KSG with a TS12 after leaving the CSSR). Home defense constantly requires the support hand for something or other. Bullpup balance right over the grip is ideal.
Get a Tavor.
The trigger is just fine.
Of course a Ruger Mini-14 with a folding stock is great if you can fire from the hip while smoking a cigar. My daughter does a great impersonation of Colonel Hannibal Smith although she closely resembles the Terminatrix that was kicking Arnold Schwartzeneger’s ass in T3.
Elmer:
Back in the day I was trained on the M1 Carbine, and it is still my favorite sixty some years later. (Mine’s a repro.) Recently acquired a Mini 14 Tactical, but the “jury” is still out on that one.
i want a braced 10″ .30 cal.
also known as a carbine caliber pistol.
.300BLK gives Carbine ballistics out of a ~7″ barrel (but with more streamlined bullets), making it possible to achieve Carbine performance from a firearm with an overall length equal to a Carbine barrel alone. I’m in the middle of building exactly that.
Umm…
I have the Springfield Saint 300blk pistol. This is an excellent CQC pistol. Trying to find info as to why Springfield discontinued it but not having much luck.
7.62×35 is starting to look very practical, i think i’d want more barrel, but not much.
the sa saint pistol is now called the victor.
check out the fightlite raider scr-300pm.
need a review, please.
Muckraker,
Very cool! Mine is a Robinson XCR.
tsbhoa.p.jr,
About 10″ seems to be ideal (check out the BRN-180). I chose 7″ as a challenge to develop a PDW that can replace a pistol.
twss. (had to get that out of the way).
yes. that’s what appeals to me, and the brn is piston, i think.
just looked at a listicle, some choices…
https://www.usa-gun-shop.com/best-300-blackout-pistols-ar-for-sale/
Right. The BRN is an AR-18 upper for an AR-15 lower.
What is “twss”?
I guess I’m neutral on this one. Have AR’s AK’s, Steyr AUG and a Tavor X95. The Steyr is the best bullpup out of the box, the X95 beats it with a Geissele trigger. That said, you just spent $1700 on a rifle only to add a $300 trigger just to make it as nice as a Tapco AK. You won’t touch a Geissele AR Trigger with a bullpup. Where the bullpups shine is with a can. My Tavor is a couple of inches shorter with a can than a 16″ AR without. Life is full of tradeoffs…this is one of them…and I used to make more money than I do now. So if I’m operating operationally on someone else’s dime, hand me the X95 with the Geissele. Otherwise, there’s always a tacticool lever gun for when I want to be different.
BTW, the anime rocks.
Curious not much love for bullpups. Don’t have any experience besides the KSG and RDB. Definitely easier to navigate the interior of my home with the KSG, opening doors while one handing the KSG is easier than a 590. Would also think it harder for an adversary to grab or swat your gun if things get real close.
Be hating on something?
It’d be great if people quit thinking ghetto level “English” is cute and start speaking and writing properly. A lot of people are seriously tired of that stuff.
word, yo.
scrilla.
The Israelis adopted the X95 after strenuous testing of the two platforms. They concluded it beat the M4 in every category. To me they are too uncomfortable BUT just a tid bit for you. They were also the Israeli service weapon of choice two years before we hear about them here.
The Lee Enfield L85A1 (Bullpup)still considered to be the worst modern military rifle every made.
Poor manufacturing was the problem.
Do not diss the Jew Pews from IWI, or the Zohan will get you! (LOL)
The Tavor X95, Tavor 7, and TS12 are all great bullpups. So whether you like 5.56NATO, .308, or 12ga, there’s a bullpup for you. BTW, the X95 and Tavor 7 use Magpul mags so there’s no need to go hunting for rare/esoteric magazines. The X95 also uses NATO mags, and the Tavor 7 uses standard LR/SR magazines.
Side note: I actually prefer the Black Aces Tactical FD12 bullpup over the TS12 because of the detachable magazine design. Using a HSGI 6-mag shingle on my PC, I can carry twice as much ammo as the TS12 can (+1 mag), and reload far quicker with theFD12’s 5-round box mags combined than a full reload of the TS12 rotary 15rd magazine with loose 12ga rounds. Either way, these two 12ga bullpups are magnitudes of order better than any other 12ga semiauto bullpup in existence!
Not so sure the TS-12 is inferior to the FD12 regarding reloading. Takes a little practice, but it’s easy to reload an empty mag tube on the TS-12 on the fly either from the left or right (depending on which way you rotate the mag tubes) while you still have 10 + 1 rounds on board. Don’t have to wait till you are totally empty. 🙂 Competition shell carriers help with this.
I am far from a “nobody needs more than a 5rd snubbie” guy, but from a practical POV it’s difficult to foresee any situation where one would need to tactically reload a TS12. Just taking the worst-case handgun engagement and correcting for the Ph of a shoulder-fired weapon, Pk of 12ga, spread of shot, etc.
That’s true of course. At least for the present. But it’s nice to know you have the capability if circumstances deteriorate to Bellum Omnium Contra Omnes. 😉
Excellent point, Gunny👍
Any views on the Keltec RFB and Desert Tech MDRX?
Some day that bull pup will grow up to be a bull terrier.
I was going to say dog but bulldog is to British and Alebert Halls soured me on the UK.
Bull Terrier, Pappy Boyingtton, George Patton.
and the mackenzie spud gun.
Media downplays ‘good Samaritan’ narrative following Indiana shooting, firearms experts weigh in
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/media-downplays-e2-80-98good-samaritan-e2-80-99-narrative-following-indiana-shooting-firearms-experts-weigh-in/ar-AAZO0HK
after Uvalde and the mall I dont think the people are much listening to the medias anti gunm propaganda.
Bullpups suck so much that even China tried to copy western bullpup designs with their QBZ-95 series of infantry rifles, which essentially still had an AK action inside for about two decades and then ultimately decided to go back to a traditional carbine style in the QBZ-191. Looks like another copy mismatch of a Beretta ARX, a Sig 550 and an AR style rifle.
I always thought the F2000 was an underrated gun.
Buddy had a Boberg XR9-S 9mm back about 10 years or so ago. We took it to the range with us and somehow managed to jam that damn gun so bad we ended up giving up and taking it to a shop. Gunsmith was able to finally free it and told him you need to sell that thing. Way to complex a mechanism and its going to jam again and again.
I think he kept it a year or so longer and did end up selling it to some sucker during one of the panics.
Was a cool looking gun, guaranteed to have folks do a double take when he had it out.
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