Oh this is them going too far but the stupid “Sign Up To Our Emailer!” Every single time you enter the website isn’t?
I disagree. A “sub gun” is not a carbine. But let’s define our terms: “Sub gun” stemming from “submachine gun.” Which I assume is a semi-auto sub machine gun, like a Sten sized gun, or a 7″ or 10″ barreled AR15, etc.
I consider a “carbine” a short rifle. Not a sub gun. For example, a Ruger PC9 is a pistol caliber carbine, but it is a rifle, not a sub gun. Carbines are the shorter version of long guns, but they were still considered rifles. Examples include, the swiss 1911 carbine. The carcano, M91 carbine. The US M1 carbine. The SKS carbine. When I think of long rifles, I think of 30″ long barrels, such as the mauser 93, or the swiss 96/11. When I think of Carbines, I think of 18-20″ barrels, such as the mauser 95 Carbine, or swiss 1911 carbine. A carbine is a shorter rifle, but a rifle nonetheless. A “sub gun” like on an AR15 has a 7″ barrel, even a 10″ barrel. But you wouldn’t consider An AR15 with a 16″ barrel, a sub gun would you? But it is called a carbine. Because it is a short rifle. A pistol caliber carbine, would be a carbine (like a winchester lever carbine, chambered in a pistol round). Or like the Ruger PC9 example above. Those are not sub guns though.
You know, in Japan, hundreds of years ago, there were many, many, many different names for different sized swords. There is the Katana, chisa katana, o katana, wakizashi, o tanto, the tachi. Etc. they all look the same, but their different lengths are their main differences.
Some time ago, there was a simplified similarity with guns:
Shot guns, long rifle, carbine, sub machine gun, machine gun, pistol. And I consider their categorizations different, even though the law, in many cases, does not.
A submachine gun is BY DEFINITION a pistol caliber automatic firearm.
If you’re in a country (like the US) that does not use the term Machine Pistol for one handed full-auto pistol-caliber firearms, then those get lumped together with real submachine guns. Otherwise, submachine guns are pistol-caliber, full-auto firearms intended for two-handed use, usually (but not always) also including a shoulder stock.
A pistol caliber carbine is a pistol caliber firearm intended for two-handed use, generally including a shoulder stock. The PCC might be semi-auto, full-auto, select fire, or a completely different action such as lever action or even bolt action. It ought to be smaller than a full size rifle (hence the “carbine” part of the name) but since so many countries have adopted assault rifles (real ones) in place of true battle rifles, the distinction of a “carbine” has largely been lost.
A submachine gun is BY DEFINITION a pistol caliber automatic firearm.
I don’t disagree with that. But it’s not a “carbine.” And I noticed you didn’t use the word, “carbine.”
A submachine gun is a pistol caliber carbine, but a pistol caliber carbine is not necessarily a submachine gun. Come on, guys, we all know that! A submachine gun is normally also a short barrelled rifle, but is definitely a compact (or “carbine” length”) rifle with full-auto capability, firing pistol ammo. One of the oldest is the Thompson submachine gun, .45 auto and a 10″ (?) barrel, the semiauto version with a 16″ barrel produced in recent years is a Pistol caliber carbine. Modify an AR to have a 9mm 10″ upper with a collapsing stock and you have a PCC, render it select fire after that and it becomes a submachine gun. An M14 is a machine gun, not a carbine and not pistol caliber.
Don’t EVER insinuate they might be right! C’mon man!
Except that subguns would generally have a giggle switch or fire from an open bolt.
Obviously not all PCCs are subguns, but all subguns are PCCs
(So long as you don’t count Machine Pistols as “subguns”)
I’d be willing to accept this as a definition.
The amusing part is that this basically does follow how a Ben Shapiro Q&A goes.
I hear his voice when I look at the meme for sure. I’ve followed his speeches/debates for a long time.
Now if I could watch his debates without his voice I’d be happy. Pretty good on substance but I can’t stand his prissy voice. I’m not saying he’s batting for the other team. I’m saying he’s probably thought about it while batting for the home team if you catch my drift.
That eyebrow raise is Ben “curb stomping” the opponents teeth down their throat intellectually. 🤔
Well, it *is* pretty stupid. A subgun is a subgun, and that means full auto capability, a PCC is a PCC, and that means no full auto capability, and the dingus questioning him has no clue what “full auto capability” or “pistol caliber” or “carbine” mean.
Mmm I’d say pistol caliber carbines are usually of the semi auto variety and not FA but not always I guess.
🤔
🤔🤨🧐🤔
My understanding is that a carbine is a rifle.
Something with a brace is a pistol, and cannot be a carbine.
I have noticed people incorrectly call pistols, pistol-caliber-carbines.
Seems like a misnomer faux-pas from gun-tubers/writers/hacks.
Words matter, especially with guns (shockwave=firearm not “shotgun”
Those are not “words”, though, they are artificial constructs invented by NFA 1934, which should be repealed and forgotten, if not simply declared unconstitutional and laughed at. A shockwave is a firearm but a 590A is not a firearm? A 590A is a shotgun but a shockwave is not? How stupid can you get? BOTH are firearms and BOTH are shotguns, they’re the same damn thing except for barrel length and stock.
I agree it’s stupid. But to a call an AR pistol with a brace, a carbine is begging for the ATF to reclassify them.
All word and definitions are contracts. Normally used for regulation. The tax code is a great example.
May be stupid but it affec us all.
Constructs not contracts…..spell check
Theres really no need for a pistol caliber carbine with all the short barreled AR’s out there, is there?
Would rather have my Winchester carbine in .45LC than any AR pistol. Or my Ruger .44Carbine. Of course, that is just a matter of personal preference.
Oldman, I’d say it’s more than that, due to the blast involved with a .223 with a 6″ barrel. Just a 16″ is bad enough, I have a 10.5″.300 blk SBR, and no interest in buying a 10.5″ or shorter 5.56 NATO upper for it.
The above graphic was taken from A Ben shapiro talk regarding the “Boy Scouts.” The college student asked why the boy scouts aren’t for girls, and Shapiro said similar – “In the name, Boy scouts.”
Thank you for the explanation.
The Girl Scouts were getting bad when my daughter joined many years ago. At this point only a fool would allow a girl near those woke imbeciles and the Boy Scouts seem to be about to fly off the same cliff. Anything you allow the woke lefties to touch will turn to crap in short order, look what they are doing to the US military…God help us if we end up in a shooting war with China before we get rid of that Senile old fool Biden.
If this gets me moderated, so be it.
FJB
Well, if we are in a shooting war with China, that’s a prime opportunity to send the ladies forward with their two moms.
IOW, the article is bullshit click-bait?
A submachine gun is a machine gun in a pistol caliber. Has nothing to do with size or barrel length.
So if you took a M2 50BMG tripod mounted machine gun, and chambered it in 22LR, it would be a submachine gun?
Says who?
“It’s funny, but it’s wrong. Submachine guns are literally, exactly pistol caliber carbines.”
no,
actually … subguns have full auto capabilities.
pcc’s do not require full auto capabilities.
so … a pcc may be a subgun.
and a subgun may be a ppc.
but a pcc is not “automatically” a subgun.
no pun intended.
Bingo. My MPX may be a much better gun than my M11/9 on the whole, but the M11/9 does do one thing a lot better… full auto. 🙂
Every time I see a dude online talking about his “sub gun”, I better see that third hole (so to speak), or my respect for them goes way down.
I agree. This is that thing about squares vs. rectangles to me. We can call it a PCC but I don’t see pistol caliber. It’s a 9mm carbine. That’s it. Nothing else. Make that 45ACP carbine into a full auto and we can talk subgun.
It’s the whole “pistol caliber” thing that raises red flags though. 9mm is used in every barrel length from 1.5 inches to 20 inches. You can have 45ACP in something with a 2 inch barrel or something in a 20 inch variety. These rounds lose the ‘pistol caliber’ meaning when you load them in a 12 gauge shotgun shell. It becomes a 12 gauge slug. Refering to them like this just adds to the confusion. We get used to 9mm in a 4 or 5 inch pistol but then use that same caliber in a rifle. It then becomes a rifle round. But calling something a subgun just because of it’s caliber is not what makes something a subgun.
This is much like “gaming computers”. As if no other computer can be used to play games. As if no one would ever want those same specs on any other computer. Take ALL the hardware and install it in a rack mount case and it becomes a server in the minds of many.
They have their place. I bought one because (at the time) the price of 9mm was 2/3 the cost of 5.56, I figured I’d eventually save money.
I have since decided that “I will eventually save money” is only valid for firearms chambered in 22LR, but…
Shapiro is cringe.
No… “The Squad” is cringe – Shapiro’s voice may be a bit cringeworthy, but the words he speaks are spot on, and should be required teaching in U.S. schools!
Sorry, funny AND correct. Next…
An AR-15 pistol (with or without a brace) is not a pistol-caliber carbine (PCC).
If it’s chambered in a pistol caliber, such as 9mm, then it’s a pistol. You could call it a “pistol-caliber pistol, or PCP,” but that’s silly, because a pistol-caliber pistol is merely a pistol. Also, PCP is a drug, and you wouldn’t want to confuse the two and accidentally snort an AR-15 instead of angel dust, LOL.
An AR-15 pistol (with or without a brace) in a rifle caliber (such as 5.56, .223, 6.8, 300 BLK, etc.) is not a pistol-caliber carbine, either.
It’s a rifle-caliber pistol, or RCP.
Why does everyone use the term PCC, but nobody uses RCP?
An AR-15 pistol in .223 is an RCP, rifle-caliber pistol. They’re very popular these days, but nobody uses the correct terminology for them!
Sad to see TTAG stoop so low, again, still.
Concern troll is concerned, again, still.
Oh this is them going too far but the stupid “Sign Up To Our Emailer!” Every single time you enter the website isn’t?
I disagree. A “sub gun” is not a carbine. But let’s define our terms: “Sub gun” stemming from “submachine gun.” Which I assume is a semi-auto sub machine gun, like a Sten sized gun, or a 7″ or 10″ barreled AR15, etc.
I consider a “carbine” a short rifle. Not a sub gun. For example, a Ruger PC9 is a pistol caliber carbine, but it is a rifle, not a sub gun. Carbines are the shorter version of long guns, but they were still considered rifles. Examples include, the swiss 1911 carbine. The carcano, M91 carbine. The US M1 carbine. The SKS carbine. When I think of long rifles, I think of 30″ long barrels, such as the mauser 93, or the swiss 96/11. When I think of Carbines, I think of 18-20″ barrels, such as the mauser 95 Carbine, or swiss 1911 carbine. A carbine is a shorter rifle, but a rifle nonetheless. A “sub gun” like on an AR15 has a 7″ barrel, even a 10″ barrel. But you wouldn’t consider An AR15 with a 16″ barrel, a sub gun would you? But it is called a carbine. Because it is a short rifle. A pistol caliber carbine, would be a carbine (like a winchester lever carbine, chambered in a pistol round). Or like the Ruger PC9 example above. Those are not sub guns though.
You know, in Japan, hundreds of years ago, there were many, many, many different names for different sized swords. There is the Katana, chisa katana, o katana, wakizashi, o tanto, the tachi. Etc. they all look the same, but their different lengths are their main differences.
Example:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/cb/02/37cb026807fe8c2d469b9659ca91090f.png
Some time ago, there was a simplified similarity with guns:
Shot guns, long rifle, carbine, sub machine gun, machine gun, pistol. And I consider their categorizations different, even though the law, in many cases, does not.
A submachine gun is BY DEFINITION a pistol caliber automatic firearm.
If you’re in a country (like the US) that does not use the term Machine Pistol for one handed full-auto pistol-caliber firearms, then those get lumped together with real submachine guns. Otherwise, submachine guns are pistol-caliber, full-auto firearms intended for two-handed use, usually (but not always) also including a shoulder stock.
A pistol caliber carbine is a pistol caliber firearm intended for two-handed use, generally including a shoulder stock. The PCC might be semi-auto, full-auto, select fire, or a completely different action such as lever action or even bolt action. It ought to be smaller than a full size rifle (hence the “carbine” part of the name) but since so many countries have adopted assault rifles (real ones) in place of true battle rifles, the distinction of a “carbine” has largely been lost.
I don’t disagree with that. But it’s not a “carbine.” And I noticed you didn’t use the word, “carbine.”
A submachine gun is a pistol caliber carbine, but a pistol caliber carbine is not necessarily a submachine gun. Come on, guys, we all know that! A submachine gun is normally also a short barrelled rifle, but is definitely a compact (or “carbine” length”) rifle with full-auto capability, firing pistol ammo. One of the oldest is the Thompson submachine gun, .45 auto and a 10″ (?) barrel, the semiauto version with a 16″ barrel produced in recent years is a Pistol caliber carbine. Modify an AR to have a 9mm 10″ upper with a collapsing stock and you have a PCC, render it select fire after that and it becomes a submachine gun. An M14 is a machine gun, not a carbine and not pistol caliber.
Don’t EVER insinuate they might be right! C’mon man!
Except that subguns would generally have a giggle switch or fire from an open bolt.
Obviously not all PCCs are subguns, but all subguns are PCCs
(So long as you don’t count Machine Pistols as “subguns”)
I’d be willing to accept this as a definition.
The amusing part is that this basically does follow how a Ben Shapiro Q&A goes.
I hear his voice when I look at the meme for sure. I’ve followed his speeches/debates for a long time.
Now if I could watch his debates without his voice I’d be happy. Pretty good on substance but I can’t stand his prissy voice. I’m not saying he’s batting for the other team. I’m saying he’s probably thought about it while batting for the home team if you catch my drift.
Exactly.
See 1:08 to 1:42……….
https://youtu.be/gkONHNXGfaM
That eyebrow raise is Ben “curb stomping” the opponents teeth down their throat intellectually. 🤔
Well, it *is* pretty stupid. A subgun is a subgun, and that means full auto capability, a PCC is a PCC, and that means no full auto capability, and the dingus questioning him has no clue what “full auto capability” or “pistol caliber” or “carbine” mean.
Mmm I’d say pistol caliber carbines are usually of the semi auto variety and not FA but not always I guess.
🤔
🤔🤨🧐🤔
My understanding is that a carbine is a rifle.
Something with a brace is a pistol, and cannot be a carbine.
I have noticed people incorrectly call pistols, pistol-caliber-carbines.
Seems like a misnomer faux-pas from gun-tubers/writers/hacks.
Words matter, especially with guns (shockwave=firearm not “shotgun”
Those are not “words”, though, they are artificial constructs invented by NFA 1934, which should be repealed and forgotten, if not simply declared unconstitutional and laughed at. A shockwave is a firearm but a 590A is not a firearm? A 590A is a shotgun but a shockwave is not? How stupid can you get? BOTH are firearms and BOTH are shotguns, they’re the same damn thing except for barrel length and stock.
I agree it’s stupid. But to a call an AR pistol with a brace, a carbine is begging for the ATF to reclassify them.
All word and definitions are contracts. Normally used for regulation. The tax code is a great example.
May be stupid but it affec us all.
Constructs not contracts…..spell check
Theres really no need for a pistol caliber carbine with all the short barreled AR’s out there, is there?
Would rather have my Winchester carbine in .45LC than any AR pistol. Or my Ruger .44Carbine. Of course, that is just a matter of personal preference.
Oldman, I’d say it’s more than that, due to the blast involved with a .223 with a 6″ barrel. Just a 16″ is bad enough, I have a 10.5″.300 blk SBR, and no interest in buying a 10.5″ or shorter 5.56 NATO upper for it.
The above graphic was taken from A Ben shapiro talk regarding the “Boy Scouts.” The college student asked why the boy scouts aren’t for girls, and Shapiro said similar – “In the name, Boy scouts.”
Thank you for the explanation.
The Girl Scouts were getting bad when my daughter joined many years ago. At this point only a fool would allow a girl near those woke imbeciles and the Boy Scouts seem to be about to fly off the same cliff. Anything you allow the woke lefties to touch will turn to crap in short order, look what they are doing to the US military…God help us if we end up in a shooting war with China before we get rid of that Senile old fool Biden.
If this gets me moderated, so be it.
FJB
Well, if we are in a shooting war with China, that’s a prime opportunity to send the ladies forward with their two moms.
IOW, the article is bullshit click-bait?
A submachine gun is a machine gun in a pistol caliber. Has nothing to do with size or barrel length.
So if you took a M2 50BMG tripod mounted machine gun, and chambered it in 22LR, it would be a submachine gun?
Says who?
“It’s funny, but it’s wrong. Submachine guns are literally, exactly pistol caliber carbines.”
no,
actually … subguns have full auto capabilities.
pcc’s do not require full auto capabilities.
so … a pcc may be a subgun.
and a subgun may be a ppc.
but a pcc is not “automatically” a subgun.
no pun intended.
Bingo. My MPX may be a much better gun than my M11/9 on the whole, but the M11/9 does do one thing a lot better… full auto. 🙂
Every time I see a dude online talking about his “sub gun”, I better see that third hole (so to speak), or my respect for them goes way down.
I agree. This is that thing about squares vs. rectangles to me. We can call it a PCC but I don’t see pistol caliber. It’s a 9mm carbine. That’s it. Nothing else. Make that 45ACP carbine into a full auto and we can talk subgun.
It’s the whole “pistol caliber” thing that raises red flags though. 9mm is used in every barrel length from 1.5 inches to 20 inches. You can have 45ACP in something with a 2 inch barrel or something in a 20 inch variety. These rounds lose the ‘pistol caliber’ meaning when you load them in a 12 gauge shotgun shell. It becomes a 12 gauge slug. Refering to them like this just adds to the confusion. We get used to 9mm in a 4 or 5 inch pistol but then use that same caliber in a rifle. It then becomes a rifle round. But calling something a subgun just because of it’s caliber is not what makes something a subgun.
This is much like “gaming computers”. As if no other computer can be used to play games. As if no one would ever want those same specs on any other computer. Take ALL the hardware and install it in a rack mount case and it becomes a server in the minds of many.
They have their place. I bought one because (at the time) the price of 9mm was 2/3 the cost of 5.56, I figured I’d eventually save money.
I have since decided that “I will eventually save money” is only valid for firearms chambered in 22LR, but…
Shapiro is cringe.
No… “The Squad” is cringe – Shapiro’s voice may be a bit cringeworthy, but the words he speaks are spot on, and should be required teaching in U.S. schools!
Sorry, funny AND correct. Next…
An AR-15 pistol (with or without a brace) is not a pistol-caliber carbine (PCC).
If it’s chambered in a pistol caliber, such as 9mm, then it’s a pistol. You could call it a “pistol-caliber pistol, or PCP,” but that’s silly, because a pistol-caliber pistol is merely a pistol. Also, PCP is a drug, and you wouldn’t want to confuse the two and accidentally snort an AR-15 instead of angel dust, LOL.
An AR-15 pistol (with or without a brace) in a rifle caliber (such as 5.56, .223, 6.8, 300 BLK, etc.) is not a pistol-caliber carbine, either.
It’s a rifle-caliber pistol, or RCP.
Why does everyone use the term PCC, but nobody uses RCP?
An AR-15 pistol in .223 is an RCP, rifle-caliber pistol. They’re very popular these days, but nobody uses the correct terminology for them!
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