“There are a lot of great training schools and instructors out there,” Caleb writes at gunnuts.net. “Long time readers of the blog know that I’ve never included Front Sight in that list, and there are good reasons for a lot of that. If Front Sight was just a training school using obsolete techniques, that would be one thing. But there are many, many problems with Front Sight that extend beyond just their training.” Specifically, Caleb slates the school’s . . .
slavish adherence to the Weaver stance, their prices ($1k for a two-day handgun course), lousy instruction and owner Dr. Ignatius Piazza’s affiliation with Scientology. Those are Caleb’s 4 reasons I’ll never go to Front Sight.
Now a lot of readers reckon The People of the Gun should present a united front in the face of those who would disarm civilians to pursue their utopian (dystopian) goals. But I love gun rights guys and gals’ no-holds-barred devotion to telling it like it is. As you might expect from a man who runs a website called The Truth About Guns.
So I’m more than OK with “outing” lousy guns, gun makers, gun dealers, gun rights advocates and firearms training facilities. But is Caleb right? Those of you who’ve been to Front Sight please sign in and sound off. Meanwhile, we’ve reached out to Front Sight for a reply. Watch this space.
yeah I have to say 80 old school of thinking and protocols. They’re dead set on things that have been improved upon. Almost like taking your brand new Lexus to a shade tree mechanic in expecting him to be able to hook up to the computer and the on-board diagnostic system and read the error codes not going to happen. Not when you’re used to working on carbureted engine that run off points and condenser electronics. Technology can be a real pain in the butt, but you have to move on and learn everything that’s new and everything that sold and then make up your school’s plan of action of which are the best of everything pick and choose and tell you get the right disciplinary plan of action to teach your students. Just my opinion.
Its seems like Calebs review was a bit uninformed and harsh. But still, on point with one thing…Weaver. Their school seems to focus on new shooters, which is good, but if so, then why teach them something that is so outdated and more difficult to master? The ISO uses the natural bone structure and is inherently a more basic, easy and natural feeling stance to learn and use. ie: something that can be used by more people easier in a stressful life or death situation.
I might agree that most people tend to naturally shoot in the ISO stance, though I’m not aware of any statistic to back this up. However, since most DGU’s happen at or near “bad breath” distances, it doesn’t matter which stance you prefer, as you’ll have no time to get in any comfortable shooting position. If you do have time, then you should be moving off the X. Likewise, if you’ve anticipated and prepared to take out a bad guy, it’s going to be from concealment or from cover. I don’t think you’ll stand out in the open, squared off with the target, and take your shots.
Since we’re on the weaver/IOS debate, which is the better stance to use while seated or in the prone? This is such a useless debate.
Good points. I remember my first instructor used to tell me (can still hear his voice..scruffy old guy) “Kid…I don’t care if you stand on your head…just focus sight alignment and trigger squeeze”. And in truth he was right
That’s exactly the point I was making. And, thank you for taking those points in stride.
For a beginner shooter, whether they learn weaver or ISO, it’s more important they learn the fundamentals of how to engage a threat, and hit their target. The chance that I’ll have any time to get into a stance I’m comfortable with during a DGU is minuscule. What if I’m in a staircase, an elevator, a car, on my bike, sitting 3 deep in a booth at a restaurant, or… You get the point. To denigrate Front Site because they teach Weaver over Isosceles seems trivial. That last comment was referring to Caleb… not your post.
Good, well-reasoned post. IMHO having been in “several” gunfights (not in the street but in infantry and reconnaissance units in combat during my 34 years in the Marines), the whole position debate is largely making a distinction without a difference.
The more important things are, again IMHO, correct muscle memory, constant awareness of your environment, the ability to adapt VERY quickly from what is “perfect” on the range to whatever it takes to win the fight and perhaps the most important–the combat mindset that tells you to never give up.
The key to an unexpected dealt encounter is the ability to react fast and accurately enough to a threat to get inside your threat’s OODA loop and change the statistical advantage of “action beats reaction” where your threat has taken the first action such that if you do not do the right thing VERY QUICKLY such as:
1. run completely away–in the civilian defensive context always better if you can do so safely as no one needs the hassle of proving you were “right” to use lethal force),
2. run to cover and evaluate whether to engage or not
3. present and fire if the situation demands it etc.
you will be on the losing end if you do not reverse the action/reaction equation and become the actor with your adversary becoming the re-actor.
The circumstances of a gunfight are inherently unpredictable (and often wholly beyond your control or even ability to influence) and they will largely dictate such things as firing position–usually not the ideal you may have trained on or as it appears in this thread, are fanatical about.
Your likelihood of “winning” the fight, as I said earlier involved the correct muscle memory and the absolute will to prevail NO MATTER WHAT and that requires being vigilant as possible to avoid being taken by surprise and to give you what could be the life-saving second or two quicker reaction time (again, to reverse the action defeats reaction equation).
As a defensive firearms instructor, I tell my students that once a gunfight kicks off you will not notice such things as the recoil of the gun or your firing position. If you have the right muscle memory to perform the 3 cardinal rules of accurate and fast shot placement –sight alignment, sight picture (likely only a “flash” one at best) and trigger control, your chances of living through it go up exponentially. Note I did not include the firing position as it is secondary And as you point out usually irrelevant to actually winning the gunfight that statistics say will be decided within 3 seconds.
I’ve been trained in Weaver and Isosceles. Maybe I’m just weird, but I’ve always been slightly better with the Weaver stance. It might be possible to get better at ISO with practice, but is it worth it?
As with so much else in the combatives world finding out which of several good options suits you better is more productive than slavishly adopting a “best” which might not be the best for you.
Actually, David, the kid next door is a shade tree mechanic. He’s also a dedicated gearhead. 2 in the morning, 38 degrees and raining, he’s out there with a tarp and lights working on someone’s car. He’s also better with the diagnostics (and has a better understanding of their limits) than the guy at the dealer’s service desk.
Money and certificates can be good. They aren’t a guarantee of skill. And some of the best, most dedicated professionals are more interested in what they do than projecting the right corporate image.
without saying it out loud, front sight instructors have to presume/assume that 99% of their “students” DO NOT know anything about guns; including which end the bullet comes out. therefore, they teach the easiest lessons and stances to learn. their basic stance is the most natural stance that humans as a whole generally stand and walk now currently. I know this because I was once asked to be an instructor and could break down and clean weapons as good as most soldiers by the age of 13.
You’re correct in that they mainly teach the basics to most students. If a student can pass with a high enough score, they can move on to higher levels of training at FS. Be it pistol, rifle or shotgun, it is the same, basics first. You prove you have that down, you can go to higher levels of training.
FS trains about 2000 people a month in the basics of pistol, rifle or shotgun. I do not yet know the numbers for higher levels of training. I still have to get my score up.
But have you been there or are you just typing an opinion based on no personal facts ?
I have been a Front Sight member for several years. I have upgraded my membership more than once, and if I never get any other return for my money, I am happy to support what I consider a fine if overly pushy organization promoting gun ownership. I only attended one class so far, the 4+1 day pistol class, but plan to attend again this year.
The class was good, not really great for me. The problem for me is that everything was organized around class safety, so many concealed carry options (cross carry) could not be explored. Having half the class act as personal safety monitors for the other half is I think very good, and you can learn while observing your partner while not having to handle your own gun at the same time.
Although they talk about reality, the actual class was run as a game. For example, malfunction clearance times are so fast that the student only pretends to evaluate the previously established malfunction before clearing it. Knowing how to clear (a malfunction or a loaded gun) is good; pretending to evaluate to beat a time limit is wasted. True concealed carry guns (small) are not allowed (larger guns are easier to shoot to class standards). Concealment is also mostly pretend; it might be possible to walk through a grocery store with an externally holstered gun covered by a jacket without anyone noticing, but don’t try that for a year where you work. Some of the things they do – shoot house, hostage rescue – really are games and fun exercises.
They do not teach everything, but what they do teach as class goals – safe, fast, reasonably accurate gun handling within the limits of a large class – I think they do well.
I’m a front sight instructor, and yes, a lot of thing (mainly “shoothouse” we call it the sim bay) are meant to be fun for students more than anything else. %90 of students, if they ever have to clear a house, are totally fucked. That’s just fact. Now, the goal, with every range you work, whether as a line coach, instructor, or range master, is complete and total safety for evryone. The second goal, is to make sure every student enjoys the experience, and goal number 3, the %10 of students that are competent, are able to not only survive, but come out on top on the wrist day of their lives, that day being the day they have to shoot and possibly kill to defend themselves/family/loved ones. Nothing is ever taught as the only, or “right” way to do anything. On day 1, one of the first things said to the class is that we’re sometimes teachers, always students. Meaning, if they know a technique that’s better, and we also feel it’s better as range staff, it will be employed, and benefit future classes. Nothing we teach is ever taught as the only way, but, the way we teach. We tell students, that if it simply doesn’t work for them, do it their way, within safety reasons of course. The main thing we, as range staff look for, is potential. If we see a potential, and ability to do something, we will push any and all students to do it. Now, on the point of malfunction times being too fast, myself and all my fellow range staff did it all within the required times, correctly, time and time again just to even get the job. A good portion of the students I teach are able to do it as well, so, maybe you just need more practice on malfunction clearances, reloads, and procedures. With that said, everything, from a training point of view, is a process and learning curve that’s unique to every student. We understand that one person could be a brain surgeon that has never handled a gun before, and is struggling out of their element. Another student could be a high school dropout, that never had a job or worked in their life, but simply is able to, and knows how to comfortably handle a gun and pick up on our teaching without issue. Shooting and all of it’s associated elements are all extremely mental things. Mental things that need to be done reflexively, short of pressing the trigger, and shooting an adversary.
I am a Front Sight lifetime member. So is my family and many friends. We have been to at least 6 of the training sessions. At no time did we hear or receive anything related to Scientology, though if I had, I would have made an issue about it.
The instructors we had were former military or former firearms instructors for State Police or other law enforcement. Maybe we have not been there enough to see the problems that Caleb has seen, but we haven’t seen anything yet to dissuade us.
I believe if there was any actual Scientology connection, they would not have been able to resist pitching it to you. They depend upon ever-escalating infusions of ca$h, and they would have wanted some of yours.
They’ve come a ways from putting rattlesnakes in their enemies’ mail boxes (and everyone is a friend or else an enemy to them), but they’re still Scientologists, a cult based on the highest hokum.
The rattlesnake bit was from Synanon, not Scientology. No issue with the remainder of the paragaph.
An online search actually brings up conflicting information on this issue, but it seems certain that Synanon actually did put rattlesnakes in mailboxes.
I think we can just let it be; there’s plenty of other condemning data about the Church of Scientology, anyway.
I’ve been a member of Front Sight now for several years. I have attended the 4 day handgun class twice, their hand to hand classes, and also a couple one day classes with Dr. Piazza in person. The classes have all been outstanding. I served 6 years in the Marine Corps and fired expert every year on the rifle range. The training I received at Front Sight was top notch every time. I have now had a co-worker, my brother-in-law, mother-in-law (brave huh?!) and a friend of hers attend with me. We have all been impressed with the training received. Even in the classes directly with the boss, there was never a mention of Scientology. Believe me, being a catholic, that would have registered with me and been a problem!
As far as the price, I checked out another training place and they were charging about $1800 for a 4-5 day course… not a lot different… besides, they didn’t offer a membership that allowed for long term savings… Front Sight does… I support Front Sight wholeheartedly, and I don’t expect that to change any time soon.
One last item… I just attended a class somewhere else from a Navy Seal… he’s attended Front Sight and thought very highly of them… I imagine he knows something about gun training!
You’re just the kind of person I’ve been looking for! Would you please tell Mr. Piazza to stop spamming me – EVERY DAY?
“…slavish adherence to the Weaver stance, their prices ($1k for a two-day handgun course), lousy instruction and owner Dr. Ignatius Piazza’s affiliation with Scientology.”
Weaver stance – maybe. $1,000 too pricey, probably. Lousy instruction – subjective opinion. But Scientology? Really? As long as he keeps his religious beliefs to himself and does not inquire as to the beliefs of the students, what the hell?
We come here and go on and on about the Second Amendment and how we support it and are even willing to stand up and defend it with our lives, but when it comes to the Frist Amendment “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” we think it is perfectly alright to vilify someone for their religious beliefs and practices? Scientology is not about taking YOUR money, it is about making each individual a better person, according to his own willingness to participate. What he may or may not spend on that is no more your business than the exorbitant amounts donated by senile Christians to Benny Hinn or any of the other mass market Christian proselytizers.
Would this comment be met with the same acceptance: “…slavish adherence to the Weaver stance, their prices ($1k for a two-day handgun course), lousy instruction and the owner’s affiliation with Judaism.”?
Keep in mind that EVERY religion in history, including yours (all of you, not just Allen) was once considered a cult by somebody. Keep in mind also that there are hundreds of different interpretations of Christianity, of which you may belong to either a large or small faction, but worldwide less than one person out of four (25%) even nominally agrees with you.
There are somewhere between 3 and 5 million Scientologists in the world, most of them in America. Do you really think you could pick one out on the street? The majority go about their daily lives just like everyone else and unless the topic comes up do not bother other people about their beliefs. Can you say the same about Christians or Muslims?
Get a grip, people. Unless they are trying to convert, enslave or kill you, another person’s spiritual beliefs are none of your business and should not be a factor in this conversation.
You must be a Scientologist. As a former Scientologist, I can tell you the claim of any number of millions of members is a COMPLETE LIE. Actual surveys show maybe 25,000 in the US currently, and you can figure less than 50,000 worldwide, and if you are up on current events, you’d know there has been a massive exodus in the last few years. That all said, I agree with everything ELSE you say. I wonder if there are any Muslim firearms instructors, and what people would think of that.
I know several Muslim firearms instructors and a number of avid Muslim hunters and shooters from hippy-dippy Sufi poets to Indeh from the Rez to Turkish housewives to former US Marines. They’re pretty much like anyone else you meet in this hobby except that they drink less and baseball caps are redundant for most of the women. They’re also damned good at de-escalating angry situations because they’ve spent years learning to be mild and friendly when bigoted Americans immediately assume they’re terrorists or don’t have any place on a by-gum American shooting range.
“Keep in mind that EVERY religion in history, including yours (all of you, not just Allen) was once considered a cult by somebody…”
And therefore there are no such things as cults!
or yours is absolutely a cult and you’re trying to rationalize it.
I really don’t care about the owner’s religion. He could be an Atheist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Satanist, a Jew, or even a gospel-grinding, blood-drinking, flesh-eating Christian. As long as he runs a solid, professional class and doesn’t try to proselytize me it doesn’t matter.
I agree with your observations–the main thing you must do in attending FS (or a number of other training schools) is to separate the Front man” from the training. Once you do that your perspective and openness to learn (I have been a tactical shooter and instructor for the last 45 years and I learn at least one new thing at every course I attend because I learned long ago that confidence is far different than arrogance that makes one largely unteachable) can be allowed to help make you a better shooter.
In addition to Front Sight, I have attended Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Academi (nee’ Blackwater/Xe), Larry Vickers and Bill Rogers schools among others and FS certainly deserves a place in this group–especially at the advanced and Combat Master levels–anyone saying FS is a cakewalk etc. has obviously not been through the Combat Master course.
Good to hear the positive. I just became a Lifetime Member. I had a good first experience.
not to get in there pissing competition here, but I was an instructor for over 8 years at a gun range in Florida that taught the police officers that could not hit the targets at 25 feet with their pistols classes on how to become a better shooter. This was after being too hot for over three weeks in the Academy,by the so-called experts police instructors.
You have added so much to the value of this conversation. Thank you.
Said the guy who added no value to the conversation with his comment.
Snark+trolling usually doesn’t add anything, no matter which direction you look at it from. Which was and is my point.
It’s amazing how much Caleb gets factually wrong in the middle of forming his opinion.
This pretty much forms a context for concluding that his opinion is (to put it charitably) “uninformed”.
For those less circumspect, let’s just call his opinion by its proper name: bullshit.
Actually, thank-you. I was thinking of posting something very similar.
Caleb is good at being provocative (to get links and page views? I don’t know), but a lot of what he says is awfully narrow minded (in regard to gear and techniques and such).
Tim at gunnuts.net, however, has some VERY good posts on SD related topics and is, in my opinion, far more thought provoking (in a good way).
+1
Not only are two of the four points not related to self defense training in any way, the other two points are just plain wrong.The class that I took didn’t force the Weaver stance and the instruction was excellent.
This response (by ZombieTactics) provides no useful info except that some random person on the internet disagrees for some unspecified reasons. Can you offer some specifics?
Here’s your substance. Read Caleb’s fact-free (or fact distorted/misrepresented) screed, and then consider the following:
Points #1, #2  are such horrible misrepresentations of reality that it staggers the imagination.
#1: You can shoot iso all day, every day if you like, and the instructors will actually advise you on how to do so better.
#2: A membership giving you access to all of the classes, as many times as you like, FOR LIFE, can regularly be had for $250.
#3: Not sure where this notion comes from, but most of the instructors are pretty good INSTRUCTORS.
I won’t even give #4 the time of day … just internet rumor mongering dressed up in drag.
I think I have heard it said here at TTAG that people should try to get trained by people from a similar background of the training they need. I person that just wants to learn the proper way to conceal carry for their daily lives doesn’t need the kind of training from an Operator to operate in operations.
Very true. I’m not in a Three Letter Organization. I operate under US Law, not military rules of engagement or secret National Security Letters. When I am in trouble there isn’t going to be armed backup rushing to the scene with sirens blaring in a minute or two, and handcuffing is just not something I’m going to be doing unless there’s a nice lady who is really into that sort of thing 🙂 And I am not 19 years old and expendable for the sake of The Mission.
The knowledge and experience of “Operators”, police officers and military personnel is valuable. A lot of their technique and training methods are solid gold (or at least someone spent a lot of gold developing them). But you have to understand the assumptions and limitations that are built into them and apply it to the life you live, not your inner Walter Mitty.
Does Front Sight put photographers in front of people shooting like Yeager and crew at Tactical Response? Seems if we are going to start outing outdated training academies we should also be “outing” the likes of T.R. as well.
This article strikes me as ambush journalism at its “finest” … you diss on the guy for his religious convictions, which have nothing to do with his training academy, but you routinely features James “I’m going to shoot somebody” Yeager.
Double standard? You bet.
Never go full Yeager.
You never shut up about Yeager, do you?
Yeah… what do you reckon that means?
Man Crush?
Yes James Yeager is frequently featured on the site…and usually is disagreed with by the author. TTAG didn’t shy away from talking about his legal problems with his Tennessee concealed carry permit, has disagreed about his stance on .40 S&W being a bad round…what more do you want?
Blood, apparently.
Yeager was wrongly denied his carry permit. Yeager explains the history behind the creation of the .40 S&W. It wasn’t to make a better round. I don’t agree with Paul T. McCain concerning Tactical Response but I don’t see where TTAG has evaluated the school, which is what Paul was asking.
So far I have taken one Two-Day Defensive handgun class at Front Sight. I paid $250 for a lifetime membership which gives me a wide variety of two and four day classes that I don’t have to pay anything additional for. When I arrived there for the first time I was amazed at how big and organized the facility is, and at how many people from all walks of life were there. From failies with children to retired couples there was a lot of different people. My class was taught by two ex-police officers and one current police trainer, as part of the teaching group. All had been NRA trainers as well, and every one of my trainers had a long experience shooting. Sure, they taught the Weaver stance, and it worked for me. What really helped, though, was the little details like grip, leaning forward slightly, things like that which immediately improved my accuracy. As part of our class people who were there for the first time or who were there for the CCW requirements had to sit through a couple of lectures, one each day which lasted about 45 minutes and talked about some of the other stuff to think about when using a firearm for self defense, such as the legal ramifications. All in all I thoroughly enjoyed my class, I will be going back for some more classes, and I thought Front Sight did a fantastic job. Of course, I live only 20 minutes away, so lodging isn’t an issue for me, but FS is about an hour from the Las Vegas strip if you drive conservatively. There are also a few very nice hotel-casinos that can shave 15 to 20 minutes off that drive, if you want to stay in Vegas.
Is it the absolute best place to train in the world? Maybe, maybe not, I’m not an expert. I am sure that some of the trainers aren’t as qualified or as experienced as mine were, but FS appears to keep things consistent. Most people are there to learn the basics, and I think they get the basics well enough. There were a few people in my class who had never really fired a handgun before, and by the end of the second day they felt much more comfortable and had shown vast improvement in their skills.
What Front Sight did for me was open up my eyes and got me searching for more information. I absolutely am planning on taking classes at other facilities in the future, like Gunsite, and from other trainers. I found TTAG after attending my class there, because again I was opened to the idea that there is a whole lot more out there I don’t know and that information is becoming easier and easier to find. I wouldn’t pay the full advertised price for the classes, but for most of them you don’t ever have to. Shop around, read reviews and talk to people when looking into any training, just like we do when buying a new gun.
Odd, this is the first time I’ve ever posted here that I have the message “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
Happens sometimes when there are hiccups in the commenting system.
I’ve never seen that here in my life. I’m not doubting you for a second, but I’ve never seen it before.
I’ve seen it a couple of times. It usually happens when there’s a glitch in the Matrix.
I can get behind any glitch in the Matrix.
Happens to me a lot. Usually on long replies or multiple links. The spook server in the middle gets stuck on those I think…
“Casino”
It’s on my “hold for moderation” list, because we get a decent amount of spam about casinos, but it also gets used legitimately quite a bit. It used to be on the “spam everything that uses this word” list, and that’s not good. But neither is the “let them all through” option. So, middle road. Moderation. Let me look at it.
“Roulette” is another one like that. Also “coupon,” “promo code,” and “promotional code.” Huge amounts of spam, but pretty regularly used legitimately, too. So, moderation.
AHA Ok, that explains everything. Thanks Matt! I have no problem at all with the auto-flagging of certain words, that’s really good to know.
I have been moderated…even deleted. I have no problem with that. This aint my personal blog. With free speech comes consequences. I understand that. People on the left want freedom without consequences. AKA Utopia.
From the video it looks like they are using something closer to a Chapman stance than a Weaver. If she really is a new shooter, teaching someone to clear a house is a skill I don’t think should be covered in your first course. That seems like marketing or keep it fun to keep ’em coming.
I took Front Sight’s 4-day handgun course a couple years ago and I thought the “shoot house” stage at the end of the course was a great idea. It’s possible to get pretty self confident standing on a square range and punching paper for 4 days, but the shoot house really brings a person back down to earth just because you realize how much you still have left to learn.
Sounds like–marketing . Nuthin’ wrong with being good businessmen tho.
I hadn’t thought of it as a humbling experience. That could be beneficial. If you come out thinking you have the skills to clear a house solo, I would be concerned.
Very beneficial. The ultimate humbling experience is probably force on force (simunition) training though.
I agree. The shoot house gets your adrenalin going and gives you a preliminary idea of how to clear a home, maybe your own without becoming an unintended target. It makes you think and that is what much of Frontsight’s training did for me. It made me overcome bravado and think about what I was doing. As for stance they were teaching both to us and whatever we felt comfortable with after trying them both.
I’ve told many people for preliminary courses, they are very good. I corrected many mistakes I had not thought about in 40 years of shooting before going there. My accuracy improved as well. My lead instructor was an active DSA (agent) and was very personable, knowledgeable, and extremely patient. We had one 75 year old retired social worker who had never fired a gun before in my class. Frontsight put a couple of instructors personally on her and she wound up doing quite well. Then there were several SWAT team officers in the class, airline pilots receiving training to get certified to carry in the cockpit, husbands, wives, parents and kids, lots of law enforcement, deputies, a couple of sheriffs, a judge, some military guys outbound, some special operators, a real mixed bag, take your pick.
Frontsight discounts a lot of memberships, sometimes to the point where it reminds me of a pyramid scheme. But so far, it is still there. A thousand dollars for a course sounds high but broken down over 4 days, it is not. Anybody looked at Gunsite’s or other groups prices? I don’t know anyone reputable that doesn’t charge at least $150.00 a day.
The the only religion I observed there in my course, was the religion of being aware of your surroundings and suggested adherence to the color code associated with it. The only pitch I received was the buy-now speech of which I did not, until a couple of years later at one of those discounted prices.
I think Frontsight provides a niche for people who have basic skills but want to take it up a notch. is it the end-all, be-all? Maybe not, but it provides good info, lots of training and makes you think.
You should try some IDPA or USPSA.
I think from what I’ve heard about new shooters and their experiences, their time, money, and ammo would be better spent shooting the same number of days in competition and asking questions and soaking it all in.
I always enjoy watching IDPA guys fall totally apart on a dynamic range running a high-stress assault course drill.
Fun times.
I like the house drill. They don’t spend a whole lot of time with it and while others are doing that, it gives the remaining people a chance to ask questions or relax for a couple minutes.
As far as it being ‘marketing’… since when is that a dirty word for a business? Oh no… they did something that made the class fun and added a little variety… what a gimmick! hehehe
Again, Front Sight does it well… my mother-in-law is in her… well, we won’t go there 🙂 but while she and our friend were pretty worn out by the end of the days training, they finished the course with the often heard ‘I can’t believe how much I’ve learned’… and they both plan on attending again.
And I’m looking forward to the next level… Tactical Handgun! woohoo!
It sounds like a good old fashioned pissing contest to me. I’m not sure we’ll ever get a definitive answer to this question either way. Just a lot of he said-she said. Still, it’s fun to watch.
I like it and have been many times. The techniques are very good to teach beginners (who never even touched a gun)to shoot. I have also taken the advanced classes and like them as well. Many get frustraited that they have to graduate the beginner class if they want to take the advanced class regardless of thier prior experience. The only thing I don’t like is the email offers the come all the time so I opt out. The place in not designed to teach people to be operators….the goal is to teach people to be comfortable carrying and shooting. I have watched them convert more than one fence sitter with thier simple and non bootcamp like techniques. The cost is solved with a membership available for $500. (The prices on the website are a joke in my mind.)
Also, you would not know the owner is a scientologist unless you googled him. Scientology is not part of the shooting school that I’ve ever screen. Plus why would we not like him due to his religion?
I would bet he would let TTAG do a story if they would attend a course.
I have a lifetime membership and have, so far, attended the 4-day handgun class twice. I’ve gotten my wife a membership (yet to be used) and have talked it up to a couple friends enough that they both got membership. One of these, who is a total cynic and was completely skeptical about it due to their guerrilla marketing tactics, loved the 4-day handgun class and frequently hits me up to figure out the next time we can go together.
I completely agree that the marketing methods of Mr. Piazza are annoying and do more to damage the organization’s reputation than anything else. However, the instruction is top notch. Maybe the techniques could be argued to be outdated or “less than optimal,” but to me what matters the most is that there is a solid class flow, good public speaking and communication skills on the part of the instructors, effective use of time and range/classroom resources, and repetition to drill in the techniques while still having enough variety to keep it from getting boring. I can say without any reservation that Front Sight achieves all of that.
Personally, I can’t wait to get the time and cash to go out there again for the rifle and shotgun classes. And heck, I wouldn’t hesitate to do the 4-day handgun class a third time if my wife or one of my friends wanted to go.
Went to the gun nuts web site, read the comments. The TTAG webmasters would have a shit fit deleting those comments. Decent destination though, will bookmark. I like me some snark. That’s a concept lost on a lot of posters here.
If you like snark (and a little arrogance), then Caleb is your man. I do like most of his stuff, but he can pretty high on the horse from time to time.
But that’s the fun of it all, diversity of opinion. I was telling a friend the other day that a lot of the things I thought I knew, I’m relearning.
I prolly go twenty years on Caleb, I think I may be able to parse the BS.
TTAG has my respect for linking to another website that is in the same line of work.
Read Tim’s posts on the self defense and mind set related stuff…only thing there worth the time, in my opinion.
Unless you just love snark…in that case…have at it. 😉
Actually, Gabby’s posts are pretty interesting from the perspective of seeing a new shooter develop. Some of what she says is close to naive, but that’s the whole point…she’s learning (and willing to learn). Sometimes, some of the commenter intelligensia get on her pretty hard.
When I do check there, Tim’s content is pretty much all that holds my interest.
I have enjoyed reading Gabby’s posts, because it is interesting to watch a new shooter develop. I myself was there not too long ago.
It’s also interesting to see how some people can be complete douchebags about her naivete. Sometimes they’re downright rude, with absolutely no reason than to be know-it-all jerks.
Elitism. Its what’s for dinner.
Speaking of James Yeager, he posted a video yesterday asking patriots to attend the rally in CT. Anybody going? I have some free SkyMiles and the flights are light so I am going to Stand With CT.
Dammit, I just drove through Connecticut on Wednesday. The idea of driving back is pretty grim, but I’d kind of like to see how this rally is going to go.
Turns out that I couldn’t get a KP. I wanted to take my wife with me (she carries a Nano) but she has an appointment tomorrow. I hope it will be a big event. I really wanted to go.
To the point of TTAG’s expressed commitment now to letting people of the gun express their opinions about training facilities, let’s turn the spotlight on Tactical Response:
According to several well informed sources, James Yeager, was fired, twice, from two different police departments. In one case for wanting to militarize the department and acquire a SWAT team, decides to test his metal by joining up with a private security contractor then screwing the pooch big time while overseas, comes back, sets up shop, with his credentials consisting mainly in taking lots of training classes from other people, then he continually whores for attention with videos featuring his assertion that he is going to start shooting people, resulting in his concealed carry permit getting yanked in TN of all places, and then … just to top it all off, puts photographers down range during active shooting sessions.
So, yes, let’s get some objectivity and stop featuring James “I’m going to start killing people” Yeager around here.
Every single truly professionally experienced trainer I’ve asked has the same reaction when I ask them their opinion of Yeager, “He’s an idiot.” To a man, and these are guys who have been in real combat in really bad places, not wanna-be ninjas like Yeager.
So, if TTAG is going to start trashing training facilities, I’d say it is time to stop the man-crush posts featuring Yeager.
Remember: Never go full Yeager.
Oh, and as for letting folks speak their minds on trainers and training facilities, why is my comment being moderated??
“with his credentials consisting mainly in taking lots of training classes from other people,”
Hoo boy, if we’re going to start pointing that out, get comfortable. We could be here for awhile.
Some training facilities employ actual combat veterans, who have served in very dangerous places, for multiple deployments in various Special Forces unit, seeing actual combat, getting wounded in action, etc. etc.
Then you have the guys who are just wanna-be tough guys like Yeager, whose idea of proving how cool they are down there is shooting at targets next to a guy holding a camera.
Which branch did you serve in Paul?
I meant more that there are many instructors out there (some very well known) who literally have zero LEO/military/private security experience, not just experience you have issues with. Just seemed like a weak angle to take, especially given some of the other options out there.
I’m guessing that any comment or response that contains those words “start k111ing people” might just scream out for moderation 🙂
Whaddya mean…”in TN of all places” ?
Because TN is not exactly like New York where they basically hate anyone with a firearm to begin with.
Yeager cooked his own goose good with his, “I’m going to start killing people” remark.
The more you bash Yeager, the more I start liking Matt in FL. Yeager has shot people and has been shot at. Regardless of his service record, or lack thereof, you can’t get much better firearm knowledge for that price. He posts videos about twice a day where you can get loads of free information. Besides having one of his staff downrange, what is your problem? Are you the guy that took his class and on day one when he told you to drop your gun on the ground, you freaked out after just paying $2300 for your custom 1911? I disagree with him on how to clear a pistol and if I don’t follow his instruction when I take the class I am sure he will call me a f**ktard but come on man! Grow some nuts! Put a cable lock on your ego and try to learn something from everyone.
I am a member of front sight. First off, I hate all the emails I get about upgrading my membership to get free hotel stay for life…
I went to my first front sight December of 2013. I took 4 day rifle and 2 day pistol skill builder. The rifle course was great. You go from spitting distance out to 300 yards. You also get to go through a “shoot canyon.” They also covered clearing doors with a rifle, but this was like 45 minutes out of the 4 day course and they said, “you should never do this. it is better to lock your self in the room and wait for the police to clear the house for you.”
When it comes to the pistol skill builder, it was a good course, but… First off I hated the fact that I had to beg them to let me take the course without taking the 4 day course first even though I have taken Firearms basic handgun and general defensive handgun along with InSights General Defensive handgun twice. Eventually they let me take it. Their instruction for magazine changes and pistol stance was different from the two other firearms training academies I went to. It was a good class to practice my skills, but not significantly different from what I have learned in the past.
At the end of their courses, you take a test to see how well you did. If you don’t get a distinguished graduate level certificate, you can’t take any of their more advanced courses. I failed the rifle course due to a sprained ankle and not being able to get to prone fast enough, but scored all of my hits for every distance and time other than prone. I got distinguished graduate for pistol, but only after arguing with the guy about not completing the failure drills with in the time limit(I know I did, but he marked me as being late). Run your business how you see fit, but it seems like a money grab to force people to retake the same course over and over before moving on to other things, especially when you are disqualifying people for not changing a magazine fast enough.
I am scheduled to do another pistol course, since I DG’ed pistol, this May.
I am scheduled in May as well for advanced pistol. Maybe see you there!
Congrats! I am going to the May 28 Advanced Tactical Handgun. Excited to see how this one differs from the general pistol course.
You’ll like the advanced handgun course. When I took it it included off hand and one handed loading, shooting and malfunctions clearing, shooting on the move, night shooting, close contact drills and more. It was a good time.
I just checked and I am scheduled for the advanced tactical handgun midweek starting May 28th the same as you I believe. Looking forward to it.
Having been an instructor for a few years, I found that there are almost no absolutes when trying to get someone to improve their shooting skills. Weaver, isosceles, chapman…or combinations of all three.
It’s all morphing, changing, and hopefully improving.
Heck, one of the reasons the military was taught to shoot the pistol with one hand is because they were holding the reigns to their horse with the other.
One of the reasons for the isosceles stance was due to the improvements in body armor, (but no side panels).
Fast is fine, but accuracy is final.
You need to learn how to take your time, in a hurry.
Smooth is fast.
+1
Lots of pure, simple truth there
I’ve had instruction from both Front Site and Gunsite back when I was living in AZ. Granted, it’s been since the late 90’s early 2000’s since I attended any of their courses, but I wouldn’t call the instruction that Front Site provides as bad, per se. Again, it’s been a while, so I can’t speak to their current curriculum. However, to argue that Caleb’s met a few people that needed to be retrained as evidence that the whole training program is worthless is disingenuous. I’ve known plenty of shooters that boast how much training they’ve received, and shoot mediocre at best.
The only argument I’ll grant Caleb is the cost and location. There are better courses that offer more bang for your buck (pun intended). As to his personal attack on Piazza and Scientology, I’m an atheist. I could care less where Mr. Piazza wastes his time and money. I’m sure Caleb’s never supported Scientology by seeing a John Travolta or Tom Cruz flick.
I’m with Caleb on this one. Piazza’s a Chuck Taylor snuggler, a chiropractor, and a scientologist. If all three of those don’t send your BS detector zinging through the roof I don’t know what will.
LOL, chiropractor hate, that came outta left field.
Actually, The “Dr” in “Dr Ignatius Piazza” is because he actually is a Chiroquackter.
Haters gotta hate!
Enough with the “haters”. It makes anyone who uses it seem fifteen years old. And a girl.
>Chuck Taylor snuggler,
He’s overly fond of canvas flat-soled sneakers?
Scientology? Don’t like it.
Chiropractic? Quackery.
Dunno what a “Chuck Taylor snuggler” is.
But none of that is important compared to the really important questions.
Is the material good?
Is it taught competently?
Is it good value for the time and money?
I have been to front site 3 times and I am a life member. The 1k+ price tag for classes are a miss-leader into getting you to buy memberships which can be had for much less. All Front Sights pyramid scheme like marketing crap aside I have found it to be a good school especially for beginners or people not used to holster use etc. They teach the basics and fundamentals extremely well. I am not enamored of their use of the full weaver stance but they do allow you to shoot how you feel most comfortable after insisting you try their form/method first.
So far have completed 6 days for pistol classes and 4 days or rifle at front site and earned distinguished in both. Front Sights skills test is no joke and not easy to pass with a distinguished grade. An accomplished shooter may not pass the skills test because it puts you under time and test stresses to see how you perform and doesn’t have much room allowed for error. The shoot house and steel man on man competition are icing on the cake and done in a very fun manner. I would guess that on average the ‘square range’ people really enjoy getting this exposure to fun action style shooting even if it 100% geared too concealed carry. The rifle class has a combat canyon which is equally stimulating and difficult. Probably 50% of shooters in any one class may have never had these king of match/training experiences.
I highly recommend front sight if someone wants to learn the ways of carrying and using firearms from scratch. For very experienced people a lot of what is taught in their defensive classes is remedial but you will find it hard to pass the testing if you are not quick and accurate under pressure and duress.
Bottom line for me Front Sight has its negatives but most of those are the annoyance factor of its business model. The training is excellent even if some of the techniques taught are dated. This is not a school for real operators and should not judged as such. I am poised to take an advanced class and night shooting classes in the next year so I can further critique what comes after the standard defensive courses.
I took Front Sight’s 4-day defensive handgun course in 2010 and I thought it was great. I liked it enough that I’ll be heading back sometime in the next year with my wife.
Scientology never came up in any way. Like Allen Morgan said in his comment above, if Scientology had come up I would have a big problem with that.
The cost issue is a little weird. Sure the cost to just walk up and attend a class is $2,000, but if you search on eBay you’ll find the certificates for $50. They hand out course certificates basically for free with certain memberships and after you take classes. While I know it helps them get new people to Front Sight who wouldn’t normally have come, it does seem a bit hokey and I can see where it could turn some people off.
Only major gripe: their website autoplays some stupid greeting from Mr. err… Dr. Piazza
this statement:
“But I love gun rights guys and gals’ no-holds-barred devotion to telling it like it is. As you might expect from a man who runs a website called The Truth About Guns.”
doesn’t seem to jibe with this :
“Note to our Facebook friends: TTAG moderators will hide all comments which flame fellow commentators, the person being discussed or the website. The antis read this page for ammunition against your gun rights. We need to take the high road. And easy on the profanity if you please. Thanks for your understanding.”
There’s a difference between “flaming” someone in the comments section, and speaking honestly and candidly. This line may be thin or blurred at times, but there is a difference.
What he said.
After a lifetime of lust for firearms and their use, I have had this internal struggle for the last year or two. Because something is new …
I’ve settled of late, on the phrase “carnie crowd” to describe the marketing shills, inflated ego folks, and Cliff Clavins of the gun world.
Now we have Caleb. Someone who sees training so vital that he needs to dissect the elbow alignment and foot placement of trainees. The young man Caleb, who while polishing his own buttons, (like I care), needs to denigrate others. Kind of like the Cha-Cha folks blasting the Rumba dancers. It begs the question, WHY? Just for the copy? More words to self-impress?
If Caleb had investigated and found financial fraud, abuse, drug selling, that might be worth a scree or two. But outdated techniques? WTF is he to pronounce techniques outdated? Does Front Site impart skills to the students? Yes? than they learned something. Is the goal to make them Ninja warriors like Caleb? No. From what I have read from the good Dr. it is to make the students wiser than when they entered his facility. From the couple of friends I have that have experience there, they enjoyed it.
So Caleb just goes into my cluttered box of carnie’s.
I doubt I would ever pay to take a shooting class except maybe for extreme long range. If I was going to think about paying to take a class I would want to see the CV of the instructor and he had better have been in the teams for a number of years or won numerous shooting competitions at the national if not world level. So what if he was an instructor for the local pd or service branch. That means nothing. I want someone who has walked the walk and has extraordinary abilities that I can learn from. There are so many poser mall ninja types out there getting $650+ yelling at people shooting holes in cardboard that would crap their pants if anyone ever pointed a gun at them. Yet again PT Barnum was right…
I have a friend who has been and who like it very much. As far as I can tell the scientology thing doesn’t show up in the classes etc.
I suppose one might not want to support Ignatius Piazza personally because of it, and thus eschew patronizing his business. And there would be some fairness in that, as he is both a liar (when that scandal broke he said he was Catholic but had attended a fiew sientology meetings, and it turned out he was chin deep in scientology), and a zealot for that cult (sue happy anyone?). But again, I don’t think it bleeds through to Front Sight and has anything to do with the classes.
As far as being outdated…I wouldn’t know. I will say my friend was not better a shot than I for having done their 4 day handgun course, and I have had zero training since boy scouts…but that could just be him
Cost is prohibitive, but you can get it a lot cheaper that it is posted as. My main reason not to (my friend offered me his membership for cheap), is that I really need one on one training if I am going to spend much money. Everyone does two handed shooting, and training with weak hand….and none of that is relevant to me who has the use of only one hand.
My wife and I both took the 2 day handgun course, and I would recommend it to anyone. My wife made the comment that she was treated with respect and NEVER looked down on, even tho she had some problems. I had a problem too and they take you aside and help you on an individual basis.
I had no problem with price, but our two day hand gun course for two people was no where near $1k! If the price went up that high, then shop around and add travel expenses to that figure. Caleb. do you have a hard on for these folks? It sure sounds like it from what you wrote. Get on target next time.
I saw in my 4 day pistol some excellent instructors working with the new female shooters. Front Sight was really good at a soft and firm approach to training. I think the woman shooters I saw were as empowered as your wife was. Along that side my grumpy and uncoachable father managed to really warm up the respectful female instructors. His redneck side didn’t much like getting feedback from the males but that is more about him then them.
Front Sight is fun. Who doesn’t want to spend 4 days and 400-800 rounds getting to know their close companion firearm! You really know your weapon in an out after having it in your hands for 32 hours in a week. This is what their training is really about.
FS is not operator school.
Nobody forces a student to a Weaver or nothing options
Yes, he sends a ton of emails, but if you know anyone who is a member, you can get in on a promotion where you get a lifetime membership for well under a thousand.
It’s a personal defense school and they need to keep some standardization for safety, but are not inflexible.
I get spammed by Front Sight every single day. It works up to “this is the absolute last time I’m going to make you the unbelievable offer”, and then it starts all over again.
FS will take you off their email list if you tell them to do it. I did and they did, with no problems.
What exactly is wrong with Weaver stance?
I can’t figure it out either, since nobody seems to really explain it any further than “it’s old.”
It’s how I learned to shoot a pistol as a youngster in the 90s, from some of my dad’s buddies who were Vietnam vets.
I haven’t ever attended any training at any of these new schools, where everybody seems to hold a pistol way out in front like they’re swinging a broom at someone. I’ve tried it and I just don’t get it.
I guess I’m just old, at 30.
Speaking for myself, old is good. REALLY good.
I replied to your post but it didn’t nest in your comment. See below:
It’s not favored by competitive shooters as it limits vision and mobility and many courses of fire require taking shots from positions where your base/body orientation is compromised, like moving, or leaning around cover, crouching, 1 hand, etc. There are arguments that weaver doesn’t offer as much recoil control as Iso. Weaver is marvelous for bullseye, very stable, but less adaptable to more dynamic firing conditions action shooting tends to require.
With respect to the tactical types, from what I understand Modern Iso presents your plates to threats you’re facing rather than exposing your sides like Weaver. Without armor Weaver narrows your profile but you are potentially running the risk of any hits you take traveling through more vital organs.
I’m not some elite operator so I’ll stop there on tactical, but in IDPA there aren’t many chances to employ weaver effectively in most courses of fire. Right handed shooters could only use it properly from cover on the left and in the open. Most courses are generally set up retreating or moving to cover.
For GSSF you could use Weaver all day long, but not necessarily IDPA or USPSA.
Frank Proctor at Wayofthegun.us has a great “performance pistol” DVD that makes a very strong case for maintaining good “Isocel-ism” with your upper body. He’s a USPSA GM and an IDPA master (if not distinguished master). His training approaches pistol shooting from more of a competitive shooting perspective, but lines up his argument for doing so is that “real life” and competitive shooting are about getting as much lead on the target as quickly as possible. He doesn’t go into tactics so much as strong fundamentals and mechanics.
For those of us who don’t wear armor and aren’t turtles or ‘dillos the “presents the plates” thing isn’t all that relevant.
Nothing. It’s just Caleb’s posting style. He’s the same guy that rags on SA revolvers and swears EVERY defensive handgun MUST have a laser, etc.
Sometimes, it is quite funny. {shrug}
He’s learned things that work for him and posts as if he thinks that is The One True Way ™. Sometimes I get the impression it’s just a provocative posting style, as he does get called out a lot in his own comment section.
Thanks for bringing up old memories of my ex. Thanks a lot.
One True Way. She knew the one and ONLY best way to do EVERYTHING. If you used another method – one you know works well for you, and is effecient – YOU WERE WRONG.
It was so far beyond irritating, words to describe it fail me.
See James Yeager’s video on stance. He says it is about sights on target when the trigger breaks. Body position is irrelevant. Then again, he teaches how to survive a gun fight, not how to win a competition.
In reality?
Nothing. It’s one of several possible stances when shooting a handgun. It has advantages and disadvantages.
From the perspective of the “running-jumping-shooting-squeeking” gamers?
Oh, all manner of things. Ask them and they’ll tell you. Endlessly. I’m sure one of the things “wrong” with the Weaver is it doesn’t allow you to look as as tacti-cool as possible if you want to scan with a meaningful, menacing glare for tangos to your left, tangos to your right, before you twirl your 9mm Uber-Cool competition rig and flip it back into your dropped leg holster.
Of course, these gamers never handle high-powered revolvers, SA revolvers, hunting handguns, etc. Those aren’t cool either, because you can’t rip off two double taps in rapid succession and have four pieces of brass in the air at once. I mean, how are you going to get any female action from a gal under 55 if you’re shooting a revolver, for crying out loud? Even the double action revolvers require you to push your brass out. If you’re shooting a single action wheelgun with a heavy bullet and a heavy load (eg, .45 Colt at 1200 fps), you’re having to eject your brass one case at a time! You’re never going to get any female attention with that sort of rig.
What confuses me is how ISO isn’t compromised while Weaver is. I mean, if you have to lean, crouch, whatevs, then your position is compromised.
Personally I find ISO to be uncomfortable and unnatural (and it makes me look fat).
It’s a civilian ccw school, not an operator school. The techniques work. Are there better techniques? As an LE instructor, I think so. Are they bad techniques? No. They were cutting edge 20 years ago, and if they killed fine in 1995, they will kill fine in 2014. Gunfighting is much more about mindset than technique anyway.
Their amwayish marketing model sucks, but so does the similar one at gunsite and probably others. It’s important to separate the curricula from the business model.
For 500.00 a day there better be onsite geishas.
Sorry, they’re not on site…….they are a half hour drive away.
Good lord… Weaver vs. Isosceles… 9mm vs. 45… 1911 vs. Glock… semi-auto vs. revolver…
Anyone who advocates a single “right” way to do ANYTHING involving firearms – outside of some very basic safety measures – is a freaking idiot.
Hell, I’d rather people just learn SOMETHING well, and then commit to extending and expanding their knowledge. THAT’S what we ought to encourage with new shooters. NOT the right way. NOT the only way. NEVER my way or the highway. Being a good shooter doesn’t matter a WHIT where you start, but is the conclusion of the journey you took from there.
Rant off.
+1000
Never go full Yeager lol.
According to a couple comments above their more geared towards new shooters. That’s not a bad thing. If you want to go take a more high speed low drag then go train somewhere else.
If your not going to train with somebody based off their religion that’s your choice. Just remember in this country we still have freedom if religion, every bodies free to believe what they want. The real issue is when people start killing each other due to believing different things.
“Just remember in this country we still have freedom if religion”
Scientology’s definition of “freedom of religion” is brainwashing you out of your money. And referring to it as a “religion” is a bit of a stretch. It’s a cult based upon pseudo-scientific folderol. They do NOT respect other faiths, and they do not deserve to be called one.
Maybe, but the last I checked they weren’t buggering thousands of altar boys.
True. But then, they don’t have altar boys. Nor do they recruit children as members, because they don’t usually have enough money to interest them.
Billy Boy, I don’t know what your hard-on with Scientology is all about, but you are making yourself into a COMMENT DELETED fool going on about it here. Bigotry is never pretty.
This is The Truth About Guns. Please reserve your ignorant, bigoted, anti-religion vitriol for some other blog where people give a damn. The spiritual beliefs and practices of other people are none of your damned business.
I’ve been approached at multiple ranges by people pushing FrontSite memberships for cheap and if I recruit other people, I’d get even more money off. It feels very very very pyramid scam like. Needless to say, I didn’t take any of them up on it. They also tended to scatter whenever anybody official, like an RO was around.
It is totally pyramid marketing but I ignore that part and enjoy the training.
I have attended the four-day handgun course, the 1-day concealed carry course and the 2-day handgun course (this last one I attended with my brother, a colleague and my then 75-year old father). I never became a member of front sight and am unlikely to ever do so.
I have also received approximately 25 hours of other handgun training as well.
Front Sight is a quality training ground. The instructors are extremely nice, helpful, safety conscious and capable. The course lectures were very good and enlightening.
Because they train so many folks, they have systematized their training. You should expect nothing less if there are 20-40 people on the firing line at a time.
I have watched the instructors work with women, old-timers (like my day) and first timers. They do a great job.
None of the other students with whom I spoke had any complaint at all about the training or the attention they received. Which is quite remarkable when you think about it.
On the other hand, in my trips to Front Sight, I never set eyes on the owner, other than in the cheezy membership solicitation videos. The operation can seems like a ponzi scheme, given the extremely low course fees that are out there (Caleb’s complaint that class costs are too high are ridiculous as, for example, 2-day training courses regularly run $100 on promotion), it seems impossible for the company to make any money. This is one of the reasons that I would never join (I am not sure if it will still be around after I have paid in my membership fees). The other reason is that I live too far away.
The owner’s religion is his choice and was nowhere in evidence during the 7 days I spent there.
Given the great value and the enjoyable experience, I would recommend others take their classes, particularly if they would otherwise be in the Las Vegas area.
Because of Front Sight, I am undoubtedly a better gun handler and more aware of the legal and ethical implications of using a gun in a DGU situation.
With the caveats, mentioned above, I would happily recommend Front Sight training to pretty much anyone who doesn’t need operator level training.
Thank you for a very fair and factual reply, with no hype.
Personally I don’t care how Piazza makes his money- caveat emptor. As long as I get my money’s worth for the training.
And I could care less who or what or how he worships.
Last time I checked this is America, and separation of church and state is there for a reason.
Plenty of other blogs to go to bad mouth someone for their personal beliefs in a higher power/not, and for that matter, their skin color, sex, sexual preference- you know, stuff that has nothing to do with The Truth About Guns.
I’ve never been there, nor have I any intention of every going. Not necessarily for any of the reasons highlighted in the article, though. I’m doing fine with what’s going on here in Houston and that’s my thing.
What does strike me as odd, is someone going all out in near jihad against someone else who’s doing his own thing. If you don’t like the place, don’t go. If they’re overpriced, then undercut them. If they’re outdated, then their graduates will deploy poor techniques to miserable effect.
Maybe write an occasional critique, if you’re so moved; but I don’t get making it your life’s mission to discredit someone who simply has a different view on a topic (handgun stance, for example) which is more a matter of personal opinion and professional judgment, than it is of scientific certainty. It reminds me of people who hate 1911’s and want to tell everyone everywhere all about it. Or people who love AR’s and would have AK devotees drawn and quartered had they their druthers. It’s silliness bordering on psychosis sometimes.
“If they’re outdated, then their graduates will deploy poor techniques to miserable effect.”
Haha, probably not. The cold reality is most SD gunfights don’t involve these range perfect stances anyway.
More likely (or just as) is you will be shooting one handed while fighting with your other hand. Or even drawing from the ground (how many of us practice THAT?).
It’s what makes the whole argument funny…all this belly aching over “which is BETTER” is far from useful in the real test. Technique is great for practice and training, but more important is learning adaptability. If all you ever train is ISO or Weaver, and never the other or say weak hand only, you are training too narrowly.
+10,000.
I have a couple of their course certificates in my safe. From what I read, the real profit center for FS buying ammo on site.
If you bring your own guns and quality ammo you’re money ahead on the experience.
I guess many people just fly into Vegas, drive out and rent everything at FS.
Does the 1k price include ammo? That might not be bad, but for instance, Sig offers 2 day courses around 450 I think (but doesn’t include ammo). That’s quite a difference and I’d say the courses at Sig Academy are pretty darn good.
Nope, you have to bring your own ammo.
This post ended up in the wrong place. All is not right in the electron world. So the space is not wasted, does anybody know how much Front Sight charges for a box of 40SW?
http://www.stockpiledefensefsnv.com/pricelist.php
Stockpile defense sells the ammo at front sight and in their store in pahrump. prices are the same at both places. the prices are fair for the current market from what I have seen. They do fluctuate with supply and demand.
Front site doesn’t run the ammo store it’s separate but stockpile no doubt pays front site a percentage.
Stockpile Defense for the most part is overpriced now. It used to be a good deal but not anymore. Ammo Supply warehouse is where i get my ammo
There are a ton of places to get ammo in the area, there’s also a small company based in Pahrump that will deliver the ammo to you for your course: http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=H400
Their prices change depending on what they have and what’s available, sometimes they are high many times they are pretty good.
There’s even a new ammo manufacturer in Pahrump who is supplying some of the shops in Pahrump and Vegas, from what I have seen they make good stuff and are competitive with the pricing.
Overall Front Sight is a good school. They are very good at some things and not so good at others. They are very good at taking someone that has zero experience with a handgun and making them competent with it within that first 4 day class. They also have some very good lectures that deal with legalities and armed citizen mindset. I never heard anything about Scientology anytime I was there. Cost is a function of how you get into the place. My first time I was given (for free) a certificate by a friend that was a member. He was able to recruit several new members and received a pile of new guns for his efforts. Ponzi scheme? maybe but it’s working. . So far they have $250 of mine and I can go there as much as I want. I have gotten some really good training. Funny thing about training, as you become more proficient you will not have so many grand leaps as you will small things that add up to being a master shooter. I don’t even look for the “grand leaps” anymore. Just take away what you can use, don’t worry about the rest. Interesting that most people that bag on training facilities have not been to them. Front Sight is not the be all end all but it is good. I’ll go back for some more classes and I’ll go to other schools as they become available to me. In the mean time I’ll keep shooting competition, running matches and sharing the shooting sports. The goal being, to become “unconsciously competent” as they say at Front Sight. Word of advice though, drop the email before they piss you off.
You’re certainly right about their emails.
They’re craven spammers, in my book.
Since I’m in anti-2A NYS, I never miss an opportunity to talk to a fellow firearm enthusiast. Whenever I bump into someone wearing a Front Sight hat, I ask them about it, and they tell me the instruction was excellent and they left the place a better shooter.
Whats wrong with Weaver?
What would you recomnend?
William Burke, I tried being more nice this time when talking about thee religions lol. But yeah cult does describe Scientology pretty accurately. Still if people are into that then I’ll stand back and be more than willingly to share my beliefs.
Pretty sure a strict interpretation of “cult” would include Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims (Mohamedans). Have I left anyone out? Oh yeah, Catholics and their Pope.
Every religion has had an originator and his (her) followers were drawn to the personality and/or charisma of their leader. Scientology is no different. L. Ron Hubbard had a vision to help people and pursued it. People agreed with him and followed him and his advice. For the record, Hubbard himself resisted for years the consideration of Scientology as a religion but was finally convinced that as a manner of dealing with a person’s spiritual nature (whether or not YOU believe that) it was, in fact, a religion and would have to designate itself as such.
Difference is those religions didn’t require membership fees. Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc. didn’t charge people to join their religion.
Also, Hinduism has survived for millennia without ever having a founder figure. Nor have the Jains, to name just two.
Forgot: Sikhism.
My intention was to defend the Dr. from unwarranted attacks on his personal spiritual beliefs, which have nothing to do with his business operations.
I still fail to see why there is so much vitriol regarding a religion that has an entirely voluntary membership and has done nothing to attack or interfere with anyone other than in self defense. Isn’t self defense and freedom what we are all about here?
The costs of belonging to and participating in any religion are issues for the individuals to consider, not for others to decide the value for them.
Since the issue is not pertinent to the discussion and logical analysis seldom, if ever, has a positive effect in the discussion of religious faith, my point is only that it is NOT a discussion that belongs on this site. And I suspect each and every one of you would be livid with outrage if any similar comment had been made regarding whichever religion you adhere to (and support), or even if it had been made about the owner of the business being an atheist.
It would be better if we all discussed the topic of the site reasonably and left our other prejudices out of the discussion.
It seems to me that it’s better for people to get some training then none at all. Their program is repeatable and consistant. And better then a lot of the ccw courses out there. It’s not a bad place to start.
“It seems to me that it’s better for people to get some training then none at all. ”
Interestingly, there is a body of research referenced by William Aprill that suggests that “some” may, in fact, be worse than none at all.
James Yeager calls that a training scar.
Frontsight as a company is a joke. There training is obsolete, there staff are underpaid and under appreciated. To attend the school you have to make a daily 60 mile drive to sit in a class with 40+ students and maybe 3instructors. The instructors themselves have all been excellent and professional but definently drank the koolaide. The company pushes products on you and doesn’t allow you to use the equipment that you would use normally. And that “millionaire patriot” is a fucking douche. The place is a gimmick. However I had a good time while there. It’s more of a FIREARMS THEMEPARK than a school.
It takes about 20 minutes from the hotels in Pahrump.
Pahrump a pum pum
rum pa pum pum….
…fifty round drum
thanks for identifying your training business so i can stay away. you would have done better to differentiate your training then talking down front sites.
How dare you say such things about there training and there staff!
I never said anything negative about the staff. Just facts of my experience. I enjoyed myself a lot.
I currently shoot – 3-Gun, IDPA, IPCS, GSSF matches and ATA. I own a small store and sell firearms and related equipment and am also a gunsmith. I feel I have a lot of knowledge regarding shooting styles but also the cost of equipment.
One of the things, which turned me off about Front Sight is the fact they try and nickel and dime you for everything. There is a 150% mark up on the retail price for everything they sell in their shop. As a businessman i understand and appreciate trying to make a profit but seriously, not giving you a written copy of the training material but rather charging you a fee for the material.
I thought the training was ok – not great – not poor – just middle of the road. The 40:3 ratio of instructors to students is accurate. If you do not conform to the method they use to training – they let you know you are doing it incorrectly, they are not flexible.
My first ever training experience and shooting a handgun came from taking a Front Sights 2 day handgun course back in 2010. A friend of mine gave me a gift certificate there, so I got to attend for free which was a bonus. From my point of view of having zero experience at the time, it really helped me build a solid foundation of proper gun handling and familiarization. It introduced me to an aspect of firearms training I had never experienced before. From there I was hooked on firearms and training. I have taken all of their handgun courses and I have definitely learned a lot from those classes. Every class I have taken all the instructors have been professional and courteous and treated the students very well. It can be a somewhat dogmatic approach they have as the schedule is very regimented and scripted. I have some very good friends who are former instructors from Front Sight and there main issue was that the schedule did not lend the instructor to let the class adapt according to the students. Yes, they are very weaver oriented and that is the style that they teach from day one.
I have since gone on to take classes from a myriad of instructors and I must admit that most of what I have learned from Front Sight, I no longer use. Kind of like when you add new tools to the tool box, sometimes you come across tools that do the job better than the ones you previously had used. I like Front Sight and have enjoyed myself every time I have gone which is what led me to get a lifetime membership. Would I go again, honestly I wouldn’t. In my opinion, there are too many good instructors out there that offer a much more realistic and applicable approach to training then Front Sight does. Front Sight has its merits and like what others have stated, it is very good for introducing those new to the way of the gun. Like they say, you don’t know what you don’t know so now that I have experienced other training schools, Front Sight would not be my first choice to start someone out on.
I paid $100 for the 4 day pistol course + 1 day concealed carry permit course. There are always certificates available on ebay for 100 bucks or so. I couldn’t care less if the owner is a scientologist. I had no contact with him. The instructors I had were personable and patient. After continually drifting into a consistent, non-perfect Weaver stance that was comfortable to me, the instructors let it go.
I had a good time, learned a lot and will probably go back for an advanced course. Are there better schools? Probably. FrontSight is convenient to me and inexpensive.
I did my beginning training at FS (4-day and 2-day handgun, 4-day shotgun, 4-day rifle) and have since taken courses with Combat Focus Shooting (Pincus) and Tactical Response (Yeager) as well as competed in IDPA. I think FS is GREAT for a brand new shooter. I got a very thorough foundation in defensive use of handgun, rifle and shotgun and have adjusted techniques as I’ve learned better ways to do things. Yes, the marketing is relentless, but as others have said, just about no one pays the full listed prices. You can take a 2 or 4-day course for $100-$200. I got a full lifetime membership (all classes for the rest of your life) for $250. As to the Scientology link, I know he was involved in the 90′s, but I don’t know about the last decade. Bottom line is I think the training is good, especially for a beginner, and worth it if you get a cheap membership. If you’re an experienced shooter, then there’s probably not a lot to learn there. In my rifle class there was a group of CHP guys there on their own dime. I want to take the rifle and shotgun classes again, and if I take the pistol class again I would use the isosceles I’m now comfortable with. They won’t force you to use their method. I have witnessed this. Caleb’s four points are weak to me. Yes, they teach Weaver but you can do what you want. Prices are ultimately cheaper than any other school if you utilize them. Instruction is very thorough, professional and consistent. The last point is a personal choice whether if you want to support Piazza or not. I know people who won’t go to WalMart or Starbucks on principle. How about we first confirm if he’s even still involved?
You guys goofed by including the Scientology stuff, going to get whiteknighted to death.
Cliff H, the problem I have with scientologists is they don’t seem to understand the statement “I’m not interested”. They seem to share this problem with jahovas witness’. At this point in time I think they just come to my house to push my buttons. Seriously I’ve had 3 scientologists and 2 jahovas witness’ at my door this past week. Same people too.
Start layin claym0res and bear traps.
Or talk to them like a normal human being. You can have an interesting and meaningfull theoogical discussion with them (at least you can do this with the witnesses, the scientologists I doubt).
Wow. See my comment above about the 7DAs. It’s actually true.
I just tell them I am a devil-worshipper and ask if they would like to come in for some kool-aid. They never come back. Ok, j/k. The couple of Jehovah folks have been very nice, and very willing to respect my beliefs, when asked.
I get what they are trying to do, and why, as I do the Mormons sending their kids off on missions- again, not my thing, but I admire them for the ethical commitment, if nothing else, to spread the word.
When I lived in Taos, a Seventh Day Adventist would stop by once a month or so. I made it clear to him I wasn’t interested, and never would be.
He was a nice guy who would discuss all sorts of things, and I strangely found I didn’t mind chatting with him.
I didn’t appreciate the literature and leading questions, but I surprised myself at not ever getting short or rude with him.
I think I only pretended to not be at home once.
Pahtun6,
This is not the place for a discussion of any religion or religious practice. In any other forum I would attempt to explain the reasoning of your visitors, but certainly will not attempt it here. Suffice to say there are specific technical reasons why they do what they do and the intention is NOT just to get money from you, it is to promote their belief that what they offer will be of value to you spiritually – pretty much the same thing every religion says they are offering when they invite you to join.
Next time they show up, ask them the question: “Why are you guys so persistent?” There is a specific reason and I suspect they will be glad to explain the logic to you, at no charge.
proper 30 degree weaver stance…..READY…..LIVE FIRE DRILL!……safely and slowly back in the holster….open the door. 😎
I have been to the 4-day handgun course. The instructors were very patient and professional. I definitely left a better shooter than I was when I arrived. I paid $1,000 for the course, but that came with a Springfield XD40 and all the essentials needed (all I had to bring was ammo and lunch) I don’t feel that I overpaid.
Never been, but you get what seems like 20 emails a day from them.
We have seen many students who have gone to Front Sight. Most were happy with it but felt it was pricey. In addition all have told us they learned more and found a more well rounded training with us. You have to stay current with what is going on and understand that no on technique works for everyone.
Been there 5 times so far: 2-day handgun, 4-day handgun, 2-day advanced tactical handgun, 2-day shotgun, and 4-day rifle courses. Each time has been well worth the $250 lifetime membership I purchased from another member (selling his older version membership when he upgraded). None of the issues listed in the article above. For the price, for my level of education at the time, for the convenience, it was a great price and good instruction. I’ve taken other courses besides theirs. I’ve competed in many forums (IDPA, IPSC, 3-gun) and the skills I honed at Front Sight served me well.
$1000 for a 2 day course? People really pay FS for that kind of class?
Maybe a few, but most just buy a 2 or 4 day certificate on ebay for 100-150 bucks.
Update: Just checked and they’re going for 50-80 bucks.
Or a lifetime membership for $250 to $500
Late to the party, but will add my 2 cents…
I have attended their 4-day handgun class several years ago and although I was originally frustrated at the slow pace, I got a lot out of the class and enjoyed it. I attended that class for free – a member gave me a coupon.
The night shooting portion was especially good. Its difficult to find ranges that let you shoot in low-light/no-light conditions.
I have since trained with guys who are more “high speed”, and I like their stuff a little more than the dated techniques at Front Sight. However I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend Front Sight to new shooters.
FS does send you a TON of marketing material, but I have opted out of the mailings and emails so it doesn’t bother me any more.
Scientology was never mentioned when I was there.
I’d spend 1000 on ammo and an IDPA membership.
Don, that is your choice. You may live where it is a hassle to get to Frontsight. It may not be the right fit or training level for you. Your choice. For many others Frontsight provides a valuable service. Frontsight was a good experience for me and my son. He was 15 when he took the 4-day handgun course. The instructors took him under their wing like he was one of their kids. They were impressed that he took the course with a Hi-power and graduated distinguished. It was a very positive experience for him to be treated like a responsible adult by adults who were not his family. I can point to that as a maturing moment for him.
I was skeptical after reading similar ill-informed reviews before attending their 4 day defensive handgun course (a friend gifted me the certificate so I’d go). I thought it would be a scientology primer in a talker in the desert talking about the evil gubmint. I was pleasantly surprised. it was awesome and I’ve never been around such impressive, professional people as our instructors. it was extremely safe, effective, well thought out in every way, and fun. I am now a lifetime member and bought memberships for my family.
I first attended Front Sight in 2007, 4 day hand gun after taking a half day Utah CCW class in Virginia. I paid $100 for a four day certificate from an individual who I would later consider a friend. I learned a lot and wanted to take more advanced courses, so I shelled out $3500 for a membership. Then came back for the 2 day still builder and 2 day advanced tactical handgun. Again I learned a lot. Then attended the 4 day rifle in 2008 and learned to run the AR-15 (which I did not own since I lived and still live in DC). Came back later in 2008 after we won the Heller case and took the skill builders in rifle and hand gun and shot distinguished graduate in hand gun which qualified me for Advanced Integrated Handgun, a four day course which combined combatives, edged weapons and handgun. Paid 5000 more to upgrade my membership to qualify for that course and every other one they taught. Since then, I’ve taken Integrated three times, 4 day shotgun twice, Advanced Tactical Night, Empty hand defense, and 4 day handgun twice more, the last time support hand, 2 day Uzi submachine gun and their one day CCW class — to get the Nevada CCW permit
I also paid $500 more to upgrade to Ambassador membership. Do I think I paid too much, sure, but in the meantime I received 12 or so memberships I could give to friends and family and several certificates. So even though I think I paid too much, certainly in terms of what current new members are paying, I think I have received value.
Is the training outmolded. Hard to say. The 4 day course is in my view a very good intro course. I’ve taken Mas Ayoob’s MAG 40 course and its a religious experience. But Mas taught it. No one beats Mas’s lectures. But the Front Sight 4 day hand gun course is superior in terms of teaching drawing from a holster and Mas’s shooting test is a breeze compared to Front Sight’s.
The one handed malfunction clearances in Front Sight’s Advanced Tactical course are invaluable. The material taught in the Advanced Integrated is also very good, including handgun retention and take aways.
I’ve trained with Gabe Suarez as well who I’m told originally designed Front Sight’s 4 day hand gun curriculum. I’ve learned a lot from Gabe as well.
Do I have criticisms of Front Sight. Absolutely. There has been watering down of the 4 day intro courses, including eliminating the night shoot, and reducing the scenarios from two to one. Scenarios in Advanced Tactical and Integrated have been reduced considerably as well. They have recently cut Integrated and some other advanced courses back to two days, and I’m pretty pissed about that. Instructors are underpaid and there is a fair amount of turnover of experienced instructors. And veracity of marketing claims is suspect (that is an understatement).
Despite the criticisms Front Sight is an exceptional place for a new shooter to learn fundamentals, whether on the handgun, shotgun or rifle, especially given that memberships and certificates can be had cheaply. In addition, it is completely true that Front Sight trains up to a 1000 students a week. The place is packed with very nice people and most importantly at my last visit some one-third of students were women. Not only does that make the scenery nice, it broadens support for the second amendment. Don’t think for a minute that these women don’t tell their girlfriends that they spent a weekend out in the desert learning to shoot.
I’ve always been impressed by the instructors. Big deal that they teach Weaver. I personally think Weaver works very well and Mas taught me ISO and Chapman as well. I agree with the comments that in a real gun fight you’ll likely be shooting one handed — and they teach you some of that in Integrated.
And no one ever approached me about Scientology.
So ok Caleb will never go there. But I intend to go back at least twice this year and take rifle and shotgun courses, and maybe edged weapons.
That’s is close to my experience at Frontsight. I was in 173rd Army Airborne Infantry where I used many weapons, and for real. You need to understand that the Weaver is just a place to start. More important is the “Dry” practice, which will learn to make all moves part of your muscle memory. I still practice at least once a week. I have been a life member for six years, and have never heard Scientology mention once. It’s all about the best training available
I actually took the time to respond on my blog, here: http://15handstough.com/2014/04/08/in-response-to-4-reasons-ill-never-go-to-front-sight/
Essentially I agree with many that Caleb had a LOT of misinformation in there. I totally disagree with him.
Mid January 2014 I took the 4 day defensive handgun training at Front Sight… so I know from personal experience. I received so much more than I expected that when I got back I sent Front Sight $400 toward their building plans and transition to a resort. There were two classes for 4 day defensive training taking place same 4 days. My class was 27 people with Range Master and 8 total range training personnel. So that’s about one instructor for every 3 students. What’s more the class is paired up from the beginning joining anyone that had been through the class prior (about half the class) paired with the rest of us. I was paired with a Dr. from Idaho for the four days. So you have 27 people in 13 teams and 8 range personnel eyeballing every movement of the 13 teams. The experienced team member always went first so the less experienced could watch, then it’s our turn while the experienced member watched. It was a blast and I met folks from Alaska to IN and Maryland, Georgia, AZ, CA and Idaho and that was about half the class I got to know a little about.
Cost… if someone paid $1,000 for the class, they did it uninformed or just didn’t care about being a member or spending the money.
Stance, when you have 27 people and you’re responsible for their safety on a firing range, the first thing you do is adopt one set of rules. What… ? your going to let everyone do what they want… No! It’s the Front Sight way, quite wining and get a new attitude. We had military, coppers, 20 something men, women and a couple 70 years olds. Nobody had a problem adjusting how each did it to doing it Front Sight’s way for the class. I’m right handed and left eye dominant and they saw that right off and asked me to shoot right eye. No problem, I did, now after 600 rounds I shoot with my right eye naturally.
It’s easy to say negative things about popular and well run businesses if you don’t have anything interesting or informative to say on your own. Some people don’t like Walmart or IBM, me… I love Front Sight and I’d say you would not find anyone who took the Front Sight Firearms training, did it the Front Sight way, completed the class and complained, They trained 35,000 people last year 2014 and it will be more this year. I’m getting scheduled for a class 3rd week in July and I plan to return at least once a year from IL. Want to go, I’ll sell and transfer a lifetime membership to you and I’ll help you verify it directly through Front Sight that what we are doing is legitimate. They don’t know me… but they know my history supporting their efforts to be successful. I would say the folks that wrote the piece are envious and would not want their own family members to be successful.
I attended a 4 day defensive handgun for the first time back in 2010 and was very impressed with the training, professionalism and concern/ focus on safety for the entire 4 days. Since that initial 4 day dhg course , I have attended over 30 more courses including 4 day practical rifle, 4 day tactical shotgun, 2 day tactical shotgun skillbuilder, 2 day advanced tactical handgun, 2 day practical rifle skill builder, 4 day handgun combat master prep, and 4 day precision rifle, and will continue to attend as with each course I learn new things that help me be better and more proficient with my skill at exercising my 2nd amendment right. Oh, and by the way I live in one of the most restrictive states for firearms…. California. Frontsight has helped me become consistent in my ability and proficiency with any firearm platform and I have nothing but praise for the curriculum and level of competency I have experienced from all the Front Sight staff. Been there, done it and will continue to return for advancement in my skill level and proficiency. Front Sight is focused on training anyone that wants to learn and become proficient with firearms and self defense. Preserving our constitutional freedoms is Front Sight’s goal as should be every freedom loving American.
Great post–I share your experience and perspective –the Combat Master Prep course can stand right up with the other schools I have attended including Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Suarez, Academi , and The best of all of the is Bill Roger’s Instinctive shooting course in north Georgia.
The OP paints with a VERY broad brush. I have not read all the comments so I apologize if this repeats what others have said.
My perspective is from that of a retired infantry and recon Marine with 34 years’ service including 2 tours in Vietnam and a member of the USMC rifle and pistol teams and small arms instructor at MTU Quantico. I run a defensive firearms training company in north Georgia and in addition to a number of FS courses, I have attended courses at LETC/Action Targets, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Suarez and Bill Rogers’ school just up the road.
As for FS the level of instruction dictates the course content and apparently the OP’s opinion is based on the entry level course that of course will have aspects that really experienced gun handlers (not just marksmen) will find too basic since the course includes people who have never even fired a gun.
In the FS course hierarchy, you have to DG in that course to move on to much more challenging courses like Advanced Tactical Handgun and the VERY difficult Combat Master. The OP does not indicate what level he or she achieved in the course being criticized.
In evaluating FS as a whole one must distinguish between the actual facility and training and the marketing by the founder. Even so, his efforts have resulted in one of the largest training facilities in the US with i believe the largest student throughput per year of any civilian training school.
As tothe pay of instructors, that is a chronic issue throughout the industry.
The OP paints with a VERY broad brush. I have not read all the comments so I apologize if this repeats what others have said.
My perspective is from that of a retired infantry and recon Marine with 34 years’ service including 2 tours in Vietnam and a member of the USMC rifle and pistol teams and small arms instructor at MTU Quantico. I run a defensive firearms training company and in addition to a number of FS courses, I have attended courses at LETC/Action Targets, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Suarez and Bill Rogers’ school.
As for FS, the level of instruction dictates the course content and apparently the OP’s opinion is based on the entry level course that of course will have aspects that really experienced gun handlers (not just marksmen) will find too basic since the course includes people who have never even fired a gun.
In the FS course hierarchy, you have to DG in that course to move on to much more challenging courses like Advanced Tactical Handgun and the VERY difficult Combat Master. The OP does not indicate what level he or she achieved in the course being criticized.
In evaluating FS as a whole one must distinguish between the actual facility and training and the marketing by the founder. Even so, his efforts have resulted in one of the largest training facilities in the US with i believe the largest student throughput per year of any civilian training school.
As to the pay of instructors etc., that is a chronic issue throughout the industry. That they are as professional for the most part as they are, it is a credit to their dedication to the mission of getting more Americans proficient with firearms used for self defense.
I’d only recommend Front Sight to people who are new to handling firearms. For that, I’d wholeheartedly recommend them. You’ll get drilled to death on basic, safe handling of firearms, which is a great thing. For someone like me, who trains nearly every month (handgun, carbine), it may seem a bit basic, and I consider myself a solid, intermediate-level shooter (opinions on that may vary 🙂 ).
I did take a 4 day defensive handgun class + ccw class back in late 2012 at Front Sight (the ccw class alone was worth the trip…I now have NV, UT, and FL non-resident permits), and I enjoyed it. But, having trained a lot more since then, ONLY teaching the weaver stance is a huge mistake, IMHO.
Regarding the DG’ing of a class, it’s not completely based on skill. It helps if you buddy up to the instructors during the class. 🙂 Just speaking from my direct experience.
Front Sight is dynamic in the classes offered, training and testing what you learned. They offer a 2 day and 4 day Defensive Handgun class but you must take the 4-day and qualify at a level to take the Advanced Defensive Handgun class. The end of day 4 test includes range and dynamic building entry and sweep containing numerous test points shoot/don’t shoot, use techniques taught on the range, requires verbal and non-verbal commands as well as creativity and thinking on your feet.
If you doesn’t qualify to take the Advanced Defensive Handgun at Front Sight you don’t have the expertise to move beyond the basics, nor experience to evaluate the Advanced course.
I’ve been to Front Sight, I received more than what I expected and I do know what I’m talking about on Front Sight. They trained somewhere in the range of 35,000 last year. View the testimonials at frontsight.com then contact me for your membership or for memberships to raffle, auction or gift. Doug Tally 312-282-4179 [email protected]
Final thought on Front Sight comments: if a person can’t qualify out of the 4 day Defensive Handgun class to the Advanced class… there is no credibility to take up any position.
Reminds me of my buddy Mike ranting about military strategy years ago. I remind him… hey Mike, wait a minute, you never served, you don’t know anything about the military, where do you get an credibility to Monday morning quarterback a General from West Point who’s been in numerous wars around the globe?
Some people do that without thinking it through by asking themselves ‘do my words match my intent and is my intent truthful to others and myself.
I’ve been to Front Sight four times and I plan to return many more times. I have taken handgun and shot gun classes and plan to take rifle classes soon.
As far as the quality of the courses, I have learned something new with every class. I have not advanced to the upper level classes as I have not qualified as a “graduate” or “honor graduate” however, I honestly do not believe I have reached the level of competence that the “graduates” have exhibited in my classes.
As far as the cost, I bought a membership (for $200) on the web that allows me to attend as many classes that I want for the rest of my life. There are many sources of memberships that allow you the same opportunity for the same or less money. Contact me if you have any questions ([email protected])
As far as the environment, THIS IS THE BEST PART!! I have never enjoyed meeting such a diverse group of people. It is such a joy to meet families, and individual men and women, who are learning and sharing their knowledge with “like minded” fellow students. Front Sight encourages this community experience while you are attending the classes. The last class I took was a 2-day shotgun class and my partner/spotter (we met the first day of the class) was a female judge from California. It is great to hear and share experiences from all over the world. I have always enjoyed my instructors.
Sorry, I forgot to address a couple of issues.
As far as the Scientology; there has never been a word spoken about any religion.
As far as the Weaver stance, they ask you to try it their way but they do not insist that you do anything you don’t want to do. The same is with your grip and many other aspects. That being said, I have improved my shooting quite a bit by “trying things their way.” I am sure there are many fine training facilities out there but because I enjoy the classes, learn every time I attend and I live in the Las Vegas area, I will continue to attend Front Sight.
I worked at Front Sight for two years as a firearms instructor, have taken over 15 personal classes there and have taught numerous classes. I have been a firearms instructor at our State police academy and I own my own training company now. I am not a fan of Front Sights leadership but I am firmly aligned with their goal of protecting the 2nd amendment. In the two years I worked there I was never subjected to Scientology nor have ever been a Scientologist.
Front Sight for the money is the best value out there. Don’t listen to these dudes who have never been there. They don’t know what they are talking about.
I recently upgraded my membership there too. They have gotten thousands of my dollars and I’m happy to do it. I will never accept the end of our second amendment rights! Here is my website so you can see who I am. Boisefirearmstraining.com so you know I’m not some guy from Front Sight putting this on here. There have been over 100 Handgun Combat Masters in the World today. None of them have ever done it using ISO. Just sayin.
A review that posts a business “Sucks” from someone who has never been there is akin to saying the food at a restaurant sucks without eating it. Who cares what an individual’s religious beliefs are. I’ve been to Front Sight twice and loved it. I brought my 12 year old son and he loved it. I think the instructors are top notch. The classes and memberships costs are usually negotiable. The bottom line is the review is totally irresponsible.
They are good at what they do (training). “Training” is the right word to use. They don’t really teach, they simply train their shooters through repetition. This is both good and bad. I own a tactical training business that has students from bare-bones beginners, to former SF and SOF members that just want to keep up with their skills. The latter group teaches me far more than I could teach them. Still; training.
The problems arise with some of his beliefs about firearm handling. Yeah sure, the Weaver is dated, but that’s more about insurance than effectiveness. Guess which stance relies more on body armor, than movement? They came out of law enforcement (insurance) and has found its way into the private world training. My issues with FS are more about the safety and efficiency of movement that his instructors use. Within the first hour of a class that I teach, I can identify the students that have been to FS. It only takes me that long because we don’t start shooting until about 45 minutes after meeting. Their habits have been trained into them, but can also be trained out once recognized. If I can get teenagers to keep fingers out of the trigger well when they aren’t shooting, then getting folks to stop doing “administrative checks” on their loaded handguns isn’t too great a task.
After seeing a few of these students, I felt it necessary to take one of his courses (4-day handgun). Forty people standing on a line (20 in front, 20 in back) did not make me feel warm and fuzzy. After watching the first several rounds of fire and seeing just how inexperienced many of my fellow students were, I was downright fearful. One woman, 7 positions to my right, was a helicopter ride for someone just waiting to happen. I didn’t take my eyes off of her for the next 4 days. Sure enough, she did experience a negligent discharge on day 3. Happily, she followed the other 3 rules and the shot went into the dirt about 10′ in front of her. It was due to being pushed too hard to draw fast and fire; she should not have been put under the stresses that she was experiencing, but they have a manual to follow, so… I will say that the same woman was improved 1000% by the end of day 4, when compared with her abilities on day 1. They pushed her too far too fast, but she definitely improved dramatically in 4 days.
There is value in their training. Not the best, nor the worst. The only way it makes sense, is by acquiring a membership of some level and getting the training for free (minus the $50 annual background check). If you think it’s an investment, you’re going to lose. If you train more than once or twice a year, so long as the place is still open a year after you join, you’ll have gotten good value for your money. Ignore all of the owner’s schemes and “upgrades” and just get in the range time with competent instructors (which they do have in spades). In fact, setup your account with an email address created especially for your membership, then never open that email account again. I know someone that gave them the phone number for Sen. Feinstein’s office on his account. I still giggle about that one from time to time.
Frontsight is going on their 19th year, so they won’t be closing. If you recognized a person with problems, I’am sure the professionals were way ahead of you, after all, they train thousands with an incredible record of safety.
“Incredible”?
You use that word, but I don’t think you know what it means.
https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5
7 students with bullet wounds in two years’ time (2013 & 2014) is hardly what most “professionals” would consider “incredible”. I suppose opinions do vary, the other 17 years were pretty good.
It may be ‘incredible’ as represented here (glass half empty). About 1 a year with 35,000/yr trained is ‘outstanding’. Even better is no life changing results and not 1 ‘other student’ was involved, just the student causing the incident. One reason Front Sight is ‘THE’ most successful civilian weapons training academy in the world must be do in part to the excellent safety record.
Sir,
I was just given a lifetime membership to Front Sight and was considering going to a class or two. Your initial post help make up my mind. Till I have my own first hand experience I am going to ignore your blog.
The reason for this is I dislike bigots of any stripe. Why bring up his religious practices? I personally don’t care if someone sacrifices frogs at the full moon as long they don’t bring their beliefs to the instruction and the instructions are top rate.
I have fought for my country and all it stands for including the right for everyone to go to hell in their own way. You should be ashamed.
I’m a Front Sight member, have been to two pistol classes (4 Day Defensive & 2 Day Private) am not religious in any sense (they’re all humorous cults to me, including atheism). As a couple hundred responses reflect, Caleb is flat wrong on pretty much all points, except perhaps Piazza’s alleged adherence to Scientology, which irrelevant to the discussion.
I’ve been shooting for 45 years, have had NRA training, and shot a lot with folks who’ve gone to Gunsite. I’ve learned a quite a bit from Front Sight instructors during my two visits. Since I already shot the “obsolete” Weaver stance (who writes this stuff? hilarious) there was nothing to adopt, for me. However, I did get a few pointers on improving my stance, which helped to shrink and center my groups. My girlfriend is a relatively new shooter, and the instructors have her confidently running malfunction drills, and shooting quickly and accurately. She absolutely loves going to Front Sight. Any place that makes my lady friend eager to buy guns and ammo and go shooting is a very good thing.
We’ve met many, many folks who are on their second, third, or tenth return trip to Front Sight. I have yet to meet a person who didn’t enjoy the experience and gain knowledge from it.
Everyone there, and I mean everyone including instructors, makes fun of Piazza’s constant email badgering and voice mail hectoring. We’ve learned a few tricks of our own, like using a spam filter and ignoring his calls. My, that was tough.
No one there, and I mean no one, has ever even mentioned the term Scientology, nor mentioned any religion, nor Jehovah, Flying Spaghetti Monster or Satan. We talk guns, ammo and shooting…and maybe heat stroke.
The instructors are not “slavish adherents” to ANY technique; on the contrary, what they do say when challenged is, “Try it our way for the class. If it doesn’t work for you, by all means do it your way.” I know, because I differed on left hand revolver reloading technique…now I do it “their” way.
By the way, the times required for Distinguished Grad are no cakewalk, especially considering one must draw from concealment to qualify.
Yeah, reading through these comments makes it pretty clear that the original author was FOS. So I guess I don’t need to look through the rest of the website. You can say I’m just as bigoted as the author, but then at least I’ve sampled his wares. Everyone I’ve ever talked with or read articles by who have actually attended the FS training comes away uniformly impressed.
I joined because I got a great deal on a lifetime membership however I have never been and I do not ever plan on going because their phone advertising is so aggressive that it has totally turned me off from going and all the calls are nothing more than trying to sell a more expensive membership. Right after joining I started receiving so many automated phone calls that I had to block them but Frontsight seems to have a way around call blockers because they are still able to leave voice mails, they are the only one who seems to be able to do this. On December 23 I received a call from Frontsight who has somehow managed to now be identified on my caller ID as All State (it’s not a problem with my caller ID because it does the same when they call my girlfriend’s phone) and left the following voicemail…
I’m Coming Clean with What is REALLY Happening at Front Sight.
Please go to Frontsight.com/truth and Read Every Word of My Confession to You. Please Accept My Sincere Apologies and Penance.
Then Prepare to Protect Yourself or Face the Unintended Consequences of Ignoring the Truth…
Disregard at Your Own Peril.
I got worried that maybe there was a breach of members information so I went to this website only to find out that it was nothing more than a very, very, very long and drawn out advertisement.
Not only will I never use my membership I am going to cancel it and I am reporting them to the BBB for using the All State name to trick people into answering their calls.
When I tried to leave this review on their Facebook page I got a pop-up message saying it was abusive and therefore disallowed.
I’ve been a member for several years now and can say without a doubt that all four of the authors complaints are wrong. I have never heard Scientology mentioned. I’ve never heard of anyone paying $1000.00 for a class. ( That’s the listed price for marketing purposes I suppose.) If you shoot better with the ISO stance than you do with the Weaver then you use what works for you without any fuss. The instructors are helpful but not miracle workers. If your thick headed clumsy or just not meant to shoot a firearm there is only so much they can do. Even if your a good shooter, If your not real careful you may learn something in the classes. One thing is certain. Nobody walks away from a FrontSight course saying they didn’t get enough class time for the money they do spend.
‘ ISO’ is great if all you do is shoot pistol at paper. Even Jerry Miculek says ISO is great, but watch him and 90% he is modified ‘ISO’ , ie, modified Weaver. If your support arm is longer than your firing arm and you have an eye in the middle of your head, then you are shooting ‘ISO’. That’s what physics and geometry prove. If you need to change weapons, from handgun to long gun or shoot from cover, try that with ISO.
Seriously disappointed in Caleb. This was a straight on hit piece, based on hearsay, lies, exaggerations, and personal opinions.
Our family has been through a number of courses at Front Sight. NEVER has Scientology been mentioned, I’ve been allowed to try ISO and compare it against Weaver and have wound up at a place in between with the occasional instructor asking if I was doing it on purpose, or not. They then leave me alone.
Yes, they are geared toward 99% newby training, however whenever I’ve taken a course, there are almost always LEO and/or military there who are always happy by the last day. After my wife’s first course, she outshot here bigshot former military MP brother who prides himself on his shooting. (Really pissed him off too! LOL)
Apparently, Caleb ONLY quoted the retail prices listed for the courses. Shame on you!
If he had done ANY real research, he would have known that there are sales packages available for a tiny fraction of the price. For $1,200 I not only got a lifetime membership, but received 100 Diamond lifetime memberships (Every course they offer, as many times as you like, for life.) to sell or give away. I’ve already made my money back 5 times over. I can also will my membership to my family.
Plus I got 20 Two day gun rental certificates, 50 Four Day Handgun/Rifle/Shotgun course certificates, 50 Two Day Handgun/Rifle/Shotgun course certificates, and $1,200 credit in their pro shop.
Like I said, I’m seriously disappointed in Caleb and not reading his (highly subjective) blog anymore
BTW, it’s easy to opt out of their constant advertising. I don’t receive any calls anymore.
In case you didn’t notice, Caleb shut down the comments on his page after only 1 day of spankings and his snarky replies.
Only the basic classes really focus on the Weaver stance. I’ve taken six handgun courses there and once you get into the more advanced classes, Weaver pretty much goes out the window. For all of you naysayers, go take a class with them with an open mind and decide for yourself. I’m an Army veteran and 20 year police veteran. I’ve had all sorts of firearms training. Front Sight, despite some things I do not agree with, is first rate and has made me the best shooter I have ever been and made me better prepared to defend my life and the public than I have ever been.
Weaver may be outdated, but, it is a name many non-gun people recognize which helps to get the newbie in to shoot. Frontsight does a couple of things well which have helped the overall community to grow.
1. They make newbies comfortable and because of their location in Vegas you can get newbies, who would not normally think of spending two days shooting guns is fun, to go knowing they will enjoy the nightlife.
2. They make it easy for a guy to take his wife or a buddy to a two-day class and not feel intimidated or worry about feeling like the fool everybody is laughing at.
I’ll agree it is not the best shooting instruction, no argument, I have had better instruction, particularly in long gun, elsewhere.
Because of the two things they do well they have been able to introduce hundreds if not thousands of new people to shooting and expand the base of people that own guns in the USA which politically is a good thing. Love it or hate it I don’t think you can argue they have expanded the gun ownership base and made it practical for people to invite friends, spouses, and kids to a weekend of weapons training. Personally, I do not give a damn about the Scientology crap.
LA SWAT requires Weaver, perhaps because it reduces your target profile to incoming projectiles. IMHO, isosceles says, “Here’s my center mass and both legs. Shoot now!”
Caleb GunNuts’ review of Front Sight reminded me of watching Rachel Maddow on MSNBC. Can’t just stick to substance. Psycho-emotionally HAS TO diverge into criticizing every aspect unrelated to the point. Then going back to add in snotty adjectives.
Next, I’m hoping Mika Brzezinski will objectively review NRA recruitment practices!
PLEASE BE ADVISED:
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH FRONT SIGHT IN NEVADA!!
My husband and I have just learned – along with all of the other people who placed their trust in this business – that we are being defrauded by way of a company restructuring! DO NOT join, employ, visit, or otherwise give your patronage to either Dr. Ignatius Piazza or Front Sight Firearms Training Institute or to any person or entity associated therewith!
As an experienced legal professional, I am hereby mounting a public awareness campaign in order to warn other patriotic Americans and supporters of the Second Amendment that Dr. Piazza is liable for failure to disclose, including but not limited to violation of informed consent obligations. The goods and services purchased under contract will not be honored as agreed upon between Front Sight and those who have obtained lifetime memberships during the last five months, as part of an advertised recommendation given by a conservative organization during August/September of 2021, thus rendering worthless most of the related investments – pursuant to the Front Sight advisory sent today to the customer base.
Link please.
I thought not.
I just attended a 4-Day Defensive Handgun Class FS. From my perspective it was safe, educational, well-organized, and fun.
All seemed to be running smoothly at FS to me and I’m looking forward to attending my next FS course.
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