There are basically three levels in any market for firearms. The bottom rung is the entry level, where companies compete to mass produce an item at small margins that gets the job done without any frills. The middle rung is the “professional” market, where consumers are willing to pay a little bit more for a functional firearm that better fits their needs and won’t break anytime soon. The top rung is populated by enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium for perfection, where the initial investment isn’t as important as the quality of the product and the ownership experience.
CZ’s excellent Scorpion fills the entry level market perfectly for civilian sub guns. SIG SAUER’s MPX line is shaping up to be the pro level choice. As for that top rung, Brügger & Thomet, more commonly known as B&T, hopes that their APC9 will provide enough “wow factor” to separate connoisseurs from their hard earned cash.
If you’ve never heard of B&T, you’re not alone. I asked random people at the range if they’ve heard of them and got responses ranging from pure confusion to an obscure rhythm & blues group. The company was originally titled “Brugger & Thomet,” but after the T in B&T decided to leave, they chopped the title down to just the acronym.
The name still doesn’t mean much here in the United States, but in Europe and among those who really know the gun industry B&T is known as a watchword for quality. They’ve been around since the early 1990’s, and their primary business has been as an accessory manufacturer for H&K’s firearms. H&K re-brands B&T’s silencers and sells them as a package with their guns — those iconic H&K suppressors (like the one above on the MP7) that you know and love are really B&T products.
Early last decade B&T bought the rights to the Steyr TMP and started manufacturing their own firearms. Nearly 10 years later they are about to significantly expand their firearms line, importing them into the United States. One of their very first products on the market is the APC9.
CZ’s Scorpion is a spiritual successor to their vz. 61. SIG SAUER’s MPX is designed as a straight replacement for the MP5. For the APC9, B&T took their cues from H&K’s moderately successful UMP designs. The UMP was intended by H&K to be a lighter and more modern replacement for their MP5 SMG, and while the UMP did some things very well it didn’t hit it out of the park.
B&T think that they’ve refined that original design to the point where the gun is damn near perfect, and given the results it’s extremely hard to argue against that. Firing both the UMP45 and APC45 side by side, you can plainly see the similarities, but the differences are like night and day.
To get to the real substantive changes you need to take the gun apart. Anyone who has ever disassembled a SCAR rifle will immediately be able to figure it out. The main difference between this and an AR-15 being that the rear plate on the gun is slotted into place to provide a more solid connection. A quick tap on the top of the end plate and it falls straight out. The takedown pins look similar to the H&K style takedown pins, but these are captured so that they won’t get lost in the increasingly large junk pile on your gun bench.
The first major change is that instead of an extruded plastic receiver, the APC9 uses an extruded aluminum receiver, a difference that has done wonders for the look and feel of the gun. It feels solid and substantive instead of flimsy and cheap like the UMP. The machining on that upper receiver is exquisite, and the finish on the exterior of the metal bits feels silky smooth. In short, it feels exactly like a quality firearm should.
Just like the UMP (and the Scorpion for that matter), the APC9 is a direct blowback firearm. Which means that the force of the expanding gas in the barrel acts directly on the bolt, causing the case to fart out the breech as soon as the bolt starts moving rearwards. This action requires a hefty bolt and spring to keep everything in place long enough for the powder to burn and as a result these guns can be notoriously difficult to cycle manually.
The bolt on the APC9 is significantly more hefty than the MPX for that exact reason, but instead of simply throwing a big chunk of metal in the gun and calling it good B&T created a masterpiece of metalwork to fit in the receiver. This thing is a monster, but a beautifully constructed monster that might well be considered for a design award all on its own. The finish is silky smooth just like on the receiver proper and combined with the precision machining used to make all the parts it glides through the receiver much unlike John Belushi through a warehouse full of cocaine.
What makes this APC9 somewhat unique is its recoil system. Instead of just having a really heavy return spring to keep the breech locked and get things running, the APC9 actually uses a hydraulic buffer in the rear of the receiver to soak up the excess recoil and start the bolt back on its journey to to the front of the gun. This has two really cool effects on how the gun runs.
First, the buffer stretches out the recoil over a longer period of time so that the impulse feels much lighter. Instead of just having the bolt slamming violently into the back of the gun like on an AK-47 the bolt is cushioned and the felt recoil delayed (like dropping an egg onto a pillow instead of concrete). Second, it means that the force required to cycle the action is significantly less than with other direct blowback guns. Since the heavy lifting is being done by the buffer, the recoil spring can be lighter, and the force required to rack the gun for the first round is somewhat reduced.
Things are slick on the inside, but the features on the outside are just as impressive.
Starting at the rear of the gun, the APC9 immediately addresses one of the biggest complaints about both the MPX and the Scorpion. Neither of those guns were particularly easy to adapt into an SBR or to add a pistol arm brace. But on the APC9, all of that is built in from the beginning.
The metal endplate on the gun comes from the factory threaded for a standard size AR-15 buffer tube, which allows the end user to quickly add a buffer and a brace if that’s what they want to do. For those who just want it as small as possible that threaded hole comes filled from the factory with a nifty plug sporting a QD mount on the rear for a sling attachment point. Even cooler: the attachment mechanism already has stocks available in the market for this gun. The attachment plate is identical to the one on the UMP, allowing the existing stocks to slot right in without any fiddling. Admittedly they run ~$170, but they are available from day one (unlike either the Scorpion or the MPX).
Speaking of things that are available from day one, the magazines are on the market right now. B&T re-used the same stick magazines form their TMP/MP9 pistol for the APC9, meaning that not only are the magazines for the two weapons systems interchangeable, but spare mags are available and shipping right now. Again, the price point of ~$70 isn’t for the faint of heart, but that’s better than the Scorpion when it first launched or the MPX which has yet to ship a single spare magazine.
Up front the gun has another feature shamelessly stolen from H&K: the 3-lug interface on the barrel. 3-lug adapters are available for all of the major pistol silencers on the market, and they arguably provide a faster and easier means of attaching a can to your favorite gun than the direct thread process. I asked Liberty Suppressors for a 3-lug adapter for my Mystic-X and it was in my mailbox less than a week later, giving me the ability to suppress the gun without any additional mucking about.
There are also some rail sections up front for accessories and such. The top and bottom are machined into the receiver for maximum accuracy for mounting optics and lasers, but the sides are plastic and replaceable intended for lights and other such gubbins.
Along the top of the gun is a full length Picatinny rail which is great for mounting things like this Aimpoint optic, but there’s a hidden little surprise. Machined into the rail are cutouts for a set of flip-up iron sights that ship with the gun and are surprisingly well aligned. They aren’t adjustable, but given how much you pay for this thing it isn’t a stretch of the imagination that the time it spends in your possession without a red dot of some sort can be measured in minutes. Nevertheless, having a set of iron sights on the gun at all times is a huge benefit, and having them so well hidden is even better. Flip them down and they nearly disappear.
The controls on the gun are pretty nifty as well, but this is where I start to have my complaints.
B&T designed the fire control group to be truly ambidextrous, with controls duplicated on either side. The magazine release is located in roughly the same spot on both sides, and the safety selector is identical whether you’re shooting right or left handed. The button above the magazine release is the bolt release, which is a really cool feature that we saw on the SIG MPX and MCX and I’m happy that it’s making an appearance here as well. The bolt catch is located under the triggerguard and just behind the magazine, making it both easy to find and relatively easy to manipulate from both sides of the gun. I do really appreciate that it actually has a bolt catch, unlike some other offerings I’ve seen recently.
Complaint #1 is about the safety. It’s a little small and as a result it can be tough to operate in a hurry. It also tends to dig into your hand a little when firing the gun as a pistol, but nowhere near the uncomfortable mess that is the safety on the Scorpion. I do appreciate that the throw is only a 30 degree tilt instead of 90 degrees though (on the full auto versions, the “giggle mode” position is 180 degrees from “safe” almost asking “are you really sure you want to do this?” before engaging).
Minor gripe #2 is the feel of the bolt release. It’s in roughly the same position as the magazine release and the shooter in a hurry might mistake one for the other. The MPX fixes this issue by altering the feel of the button — a vertical bar for the magazine release as opposed to a horizontal bar for the bolt release — but on the APC9 it’s nearly the same thing.
Issue #3 is that the pistol grip is molded into the receiver and cannot be replaced. Yet. I hear they’re working on a version that takes AR-15 grips, and that might be a good idea.
You may notice that these are fairly minor gripes. Honestly, I’m really grasping at straws here. There’s not much to fault.
Out on the range the gun performs amazingly well. The trigger on this gun is probably the best I’ve felt on a pistol caliber SMG thus far — not entirely free of creep, but it’s really only there if you’re looking for it. Recoil is much more manageable than even on the MPX thanks to the hydraulic buffer, and especially compared to the UMP you can tell the difference. The UMP had to have the cyclic rate turned down to keep the gun controllable, but the rate of fire on the comparable APC45 is just about twice as fast (600 RPM versus 1,060 RPM) without losing any of that accuracy or controllability.
Accuracy on this gun is exactly what you would expect: amazing. I shot this gun at the same distance and the same configuration as the MPX, and the group size is definitely tighter. Four rounds landed within about the area of a quarter, and I completely and totally take responsibility for the low flier. The gun performs — there’s no two ways about it.
The gun looks great, feels great, and performs great, but I guess it’s time to talk about the elephant in the room.
CZ’s pistol caliber thing is $849 MSRP. SIG’s MP5 replacement is $1,378. For this piece of Swiss mechanical art, B&T is commanding the princely sum of $2,250. You could buy both an MPX and a Scorpion for less than one APC9. The thing is we’re talking about three very different markets with these three guns. Let’s just look at the MPX and the APC9 and their 1911 counterparts.
The MPX is priced and marketed to the same kind of person who would buy a Springfield Range Officer 1911: it isn’t the cheapest, but the price point is reasonable enough that most people could purchase it. The gun runs and it runs just fine, but there are little things you could change to make it a much better gun. The finish is a little rough and the components aren’t exactly perfect but you could run it through the apocalypse and it would survive longer than you could.
The APC9 is marketed more like the Wilson Combat. The fit and finish is exquisite, and the gun is more or less perfect from the factory. Wilson Combat is doing just fine charging people thousands of dollars for a nicer looking and feeling version of a firearm they can buy off the shelves at a fraction of that cost, and B&T is looking to take their APC9 to that same market.
Fun fact: the Wilson Combat 1911 on that table still costs more than the APC9.
The real question here is whether the B&T APC9 is worth the money, and that really depends. For the average Joe the SIG SAUER MPX will get the job done, but this gun isn’t being marketed to the average Joe. This gun is designed for shooters who want only the finest firearms, the highest quality parts, and the best that money can buy. They’re marketing this gun to the kind of people who have money to burn and would rather pay extra for superior quality rather than get a great deal on something that will only do the bare minimum. People who aren’t price sensitive. In other words, the Bizarro version of .
In my opinion the gun has met the burden required to be considered acceptable in that price range, but it isn’t quite perfect just yet. There are some niggling issues that keep me from proclaiming it a five star gun but the work required to get it there can be done as a retrofit kit and doesn’t require a redesign of the firearm.
Specifications: B&T APC9
Caliber: 9mm (also available in 45 ACP)
Magazine: 30 rounds (15 also available)
Weight: 5.5 lbs (empty)
Barrel Length: 6.9”
Overall Length: 15.1″
Sights: Fold down iron sights
MSRP: $2,250
Ratings (out of five stars):
Style * * * * *
These Swiss gun makers really know how to make a firearm. Not only is it functional but she’s damn sexy to boot. Especially when you add a silencer and a stock.
Customization * * * *
Magazines and stocks are already available. Rail sections are everywhere you’d want to mount something. The best part: you don’t need a custom adapter to mount a buffer tube. It’s built right into the gun from the factory. That said, there’s only so much you can do to the gun at this point.
Reliability * * * * *
I have shot the absolute bejesus out of this gun without any issues. Suppressed or unsuppressed, it runs like a top. Even in full auto (with a full auto version) there was never so much as a hiccup.
Accuracy * * * * *
Best in class, no doubt about it.
Overall * * * *
There are some details that keep me from giving it that last star, and given the price they are asking the details really do matter. But even with those exceptions this gun is amazing.
The MPX being the “pro choice” is pretty debatable. (I sense a bit of favoring to be honest).
So far all the reviews I’ve seen comparing the EVO to the MPX (MAC Channel as one example) the EVO has won. One clear thing, the MPX is inferior to the EVO when it comes to suppression. That is unlike you like a face full of debris.
Meh… I’ll take the ability of the MPX to accept a 3MR trigger over getting rid of that is a common issue with AR platforms. If you’re used to shooting a 10.5″ AR SBR suppressed, the MPX won’t give you any more problems. I honestly like the egos of the MPX over the Scorpion. Enough to tip the balance.
I’ll give the MPX that crutch, the ability to use pre-existing parts market. Time will tell, but the EVO may end up with the same capability in this regard.
The lack of a need to worry over 922r compliance is also a big deal. I plan to get a MPX for Christmas. I plan to start fiddling with it immediately and not worry about some bureaucrat getting his panties in a his crack over me not counting parts.
922(r) is something importers worry about. I have never heard of a single consumer ever getting dinged about compliance.
The APC9 can accept most AR15 FCG..that actually how to meet 922r requirements on this platform
That’s only 4 parts. You probably need to get rid of and/or replace with U.S.-made parts 6 on this gun to make it 922r compliant in rifle form.
Tim, this is not true.
B&T confirmed with me last year at SHOT that while THEY DID INTEND for the APC9 trigger to be any AR trigger, that did not work out.
The APC9 trigger is unique and NOT COMPATIBLE with AR triggers… It’s weird because it’s damn near identical, just different enough to not work. They don’t talk about this it seems.
Yeah, by all accounts the EVO compares rather favorably against the MPX. Especially the whole gas in the face issue.
The whole “gas in face” is a non issue. It’s common with suppressed ARs and can be dealt with in the same way. I expect the mk2 version of the MPX that SIG is getting ready to release to include an ambidextrous “gas buster” charging handle. Failing that, given the minor difference between an MPX handle and an AR handle, I expect such a product to be on the marked inside a year.
In all honesty, how many people will actually put cans on their SBRed MPX? It’s only an issue for people who…
1. SBR the “pistol”
2. Have a 9mm suppressor
3. Despite 1 and 2 have never fired a suppressed AR and have not gotten used it.
$2,250? For a non-giggle switch sub-gun that I’m going to spend $500 SBRing and adding a good stock to? Really? That’s around a $3k investment in what is, at best, a range toy. I can trick out an MPX for almost 2/3 of that (which includes a 3MR fake giggle switch).
You sure these guys aren’t HK? It sounds like they have the Teutonic scalper pricing policy down pat.
I agree price sans giggle switch isn’t doing it for me. While these sub guns are low on my priority list I’d need to seriously be impressed with it to shell out the cash that could be spent on its competition and have left over to pick up another gun on my list
To put things in perspective a “giggle switch” equipped gun will run you $10 – $12K for an Uzi and over $30K for an MP5. So, from that perspective, $2,500 is not that outrageous
Sadly I think this falls into the category of “All Things Swiss”.
Luggage, Watches, Guns – you get the idea.
I have no doubt they will find a market in the USA, but it won’t be the mainstream market at that price point.
Meh… Sigs also have a Swiss heritage and I’m not paying outrageous scalper prices for a P226. Hell, even a Legion is still within the realm of sanity for a tricked out 9mm auto.
And the only reason sig keeps the cost down is because they are made here in the USA. These guns are completely made in the land of the Rolex and then imported.
The only ones better than the Germans at scalping for name recognition are the Swiss.
It’s a shame that there aren’t many .45acp sub guns available. My all time favorite is the UMP.45 but hey, compared to a USC/UMP conversion this thing is a bargain. 😀
And that is the bell winner for me. I’ve been looking at potential .45 sub guns and outside of Class III stuff, there’s not a lot on the market. You can do the HK USC conversion, but not cheaply. LWRC may have something coming out in .45 late in 2016 (or it may not). The fact that this gun is available in .45 is something I’m going to have to take a closer look at.
That said, one can still pick up a full auto .45 M10 for $4,000 and with the addition of a Lage upper, you can convert it into a reasonably functional full auto sub gun. By the time you are done, you will have paid roughly twice what the B&R cost, but you got that there giggle switch.
Yeah, for an awesome gun it’s ok. ?
Eveybody order 3 to try and get the cost down.
How much of cost is import tariff?
3% import tax and 10% excise tax
Nice review but how about a view of the left side? Charging handle location?
Charging handle is attached to the bolt and reciprocating. You can swap sides pretty quickly just like on the SCAR series.
For what they are and what you can do with them, I’ll wait till Mossberg puts one out.
“Starting at the rear of the gun, the APC9 immediately addresses one of the biggest complaints about both the MPX and the Scorpion. Neither of those guns were particularly easy to adapt into an SBR or to add a pistol arm brace. But on the APC9, all of that is built in from the beginning.”
Lol, WTF? On the scorpion you literally press a button, slide a plate off, and slide the adapter/stock on. In what world is that “not particularly easy”? It takes 5 seconds for crying out loud. That’s some infomercial salemenship BS right there. It seems you have a hard on for the more expensive guns, but give me a break.
5 seconds is pretty generous lol
Both Scorpion and MPX require an adapter. The Scorpion didn’t have one available until after launch, and the stock still isn’t available. SIG still hasn’t shipped any replacement parts. With the APC9 you have replacement stocks available from day one and there’s an attachment for a pistol buffer tube built into the gun.
Untrue.
https://instagram.com/p/9Y2AyQQs3Q/
MSRP of $200 and shipping now. But keep hating on the CZ, since that’s your MO.
Didn’t have one available until after launch. My statement is 100% accurate.
I just don’t like the Scorpion that much. It doesn’t do it for me. You can’t make me love it.
I’d have to say, that QD plate is how the Scorp’s factory stock has always attached, even in the original SMG form. And the MPX in any form was designed with the rear Pic rail for quick stock swapping. To my ear, “adapter” implies aftermarket tinkering but this is all factory stuff here.
The only reason you couldn’t buy the factory CZ stock for the Scorp was because there was no way for the gun to be 922(r) compliant in rifle form. Therefore, CZ-USA chose not to offer it for sale. The APC9 may be capable of accepting HK UMP stocks (which doesn’t quite seem like the same thing as being able to purchase a B&T APC9 stock), but there’s no way to legally use it. I don’t think CZ-USA wanted the potential liability of turning its customers into accidental criminals. Now that 922(r) parts are available, they’re offering the stocks.
The only market for this gun is the “no such concern as money” crowd. I know this group exists, since you can purchase a 5k$ 1911 and $135 plain black tshirt, but it’s a small market.
2250 for a subgun?
“♪ I call that gettin’ swindled and pimped, I call that gettin’ tricked by a business.”
CZ ftw.
Amen…seems like at the range, the more expensive the toys, the less accurate and competent the shooter. My shooting buddies and I have a bet that the first guy at the range with a B&T is a terrible shot….
You’re safe, B&T owners aren’t hanging out at your range. They are at private clubs or on a mission.
I am just getting a B&T APC Pro 9×19 and I think I would surprise you… 🙂
I just do not like toy-like, cheap guns that print all over the target. I like accurate, precise guns that give satisfactory performance. I save money for them and get them, no matter what the price is.
Nick,
There is no such thing as an “entry level market of civilian sub guns”.
Sub guns are fully automatic weapons. Things like real Uzi’s and MP5s. They are way out of the price range of most people. $10,000 on up to infinity.
What we have a market for are “pistol caliber carbines”, and “dorky oversized pistols” sub gun wannabees”.
The Hi-Point and Kel-Tec carbines are the “entry level ones”. The CZ and Beretta are the midrange. I totally don’t care about the top end guns. I only buy guns from the first two levels.
Yeah I agree with you, when I think of pistol caliber carbines and such I think of Hipoint as entry level and kel-tec sub2000 as well. I mean for a $750 “entry level” scorpion evo you could get a reiable ar15, or an akm, or a jm series mossberg 930, or even a Glock 40 MOS. All of which I would consider at least mid-level for their respective categories. I really wish another company would do a slightly higher quality version of a kel-tec sub 2000.
The plastic ‘iron’ sights didn’t bother you?
Military arms channel (I think) said they felt like they could be snapped off without much effort.
I see why you would drop over $2k for this gun rather then get a cz or sig pcc. But what advantage does this have over a similarly priced kriss vector? The Vector is more compact, less recoil, and they’re adding a 9mm variant to their line.
You mean other than that the Kriss looks fugly as all hell? Not much, but for me that was enough. I realize this is an old thread, but I just took possession of an APC-45 (and to the guys a few posts above, was an Expert USMC marksman, and have only gotten better over the years), after deliberating on it for about ten minutes. I would never consider a Kriss vector mostly due to it’s odd looks. I have an SBR’d Thompson, and have been waiting and waiting for the LWRC SMG-45 (Thompson is fun, but too heavy and dated). When I saw this, LWRC lost my $$$, as a potential customer with disposable income can only wait so long. Mine will eventually get FORM1’d and wear a real stock, but for now already has a KAK blade pistol brace, and is a fine stable mate to the other SMG wannabe’s I have in my non-class III state (Uzi SBR, MP5 clone SBR, MK760 SBR, Thompson SBR). Pistol caliber carbines rock. And now I have another in .45 which is the biggest reason I plunked down $$$ over the 9mm Scorps an MPX’s.
Hey, hope you’re still around this thread- because I know it’s pretty old. I’m in the same boat as you, looking for a high-quality 45 sub-gun, and eventually FORM-1’ing it. But do you know if the APC-45 is convertible to 9mm? I figure a bolt conversion should be stupid-easy, but I’m not sure about the mag-well and lower. It’s not a must-have, but it would seal the deal for a B&T. Otherwise I’m on the fence with a Vector, although the idea of buying an additional 10mm lower is appealing.
“The bottom rung is the entry level, where companies compete to mass produce an item at small margins that gets the job done without any frills. The middle rung is the “professional” market, where consumers are willing to pay a little bit more for a functional firearm that better fits their needs and won’t break anytime soon.”
“CZ’s Scorpion fills the entry level market perfectly for civilian sub guns. SIG SAUER’s MPX is shaping up to be the pro level choice.”
Anything you can do to push the CZ down, huh? The SIG fanboy in you is showing… Again… Still…
Disappointing that it colors your reviews. Every one of them.
(BTW, I hate the ‘Again… Still…’, I just see it more on this site than anywhere else… Ever…)
Hey Nick,
How does this compare to a Kriss Vector? you can buy the bullet magazine model out here in CA for about 2 grand. I like the look but that is a lot to pay.
Bill
I don’t particularly like the Kriss gun. It just doesn’t give me that fizzing sensation in my gentleman’s bits. The ergonomics are a little strange, and the recoil doesn’t work for me.
Hate to sound like a butt hurt fan boy, but the CZ represents the bottom rung? I would say it’s a significant step up from Kel-tec, Taurus (do they even still make a PCC?), JRC, MecTech, the various MAC-10 clones, HiPoint, etc. I won’t argue that it has all the features of the MPX (namely, a gas system), but it’s doubtful the MPX is any more reliable.
I would argue that most of the guns you listed wouldn’t even qualify as entry level subguns, but rather as trash pistols that may or may not fire full auto.
I’m late to the party here but you’re not wrong.
The CZ if it was priced $400 higher would be getting less comparison to “entry level”. I’m an MP5 SBR owner and chose the CZ because it’s a more simple evolution of the real subgun. The SIG on the otherhand is all the lessons (not) learned about piston AR’s tied into 9mm offering.
As soon as I saw SIG’s internal suppressors for the MPX, I knew one thing. This gun was going to run great suppressed OR unsupressed. Not both. They originally had planned for an adjustable gas system but dropped it. And now you get exactly what anyone with experience with these would expect a gassy gun suppressed.
I have no doubt the MPX is a good gun. But let’s take a step back, the CZ EVO is cheap to make so it sells cheap, that’s not a bad thing. And it doesn’t automatically put it in a lower tier.
I have no doubt that suppressed, the CZ runs reliably longer than the MPX, and does so with less gas to the face. The MPX should be have less recoil, but I suspect it’s overgassed by default and has a very high peak bolt velocity. The MPX has been a donkey show from 2 years before launch.
Anyone discounting the CZ because of price is being foolish.
Nick, The following statement is false “MPX which has yet to ship a single spare magazine”.
I have 3 spare magazines from sig. In fact they even were running a deal on them for the people that picked up an MPX early on. FWIW I ordered a collapsible stock, mags and a carbon fiber handguard on July 6th.
The mags came, handguard has been refunded because they don’t have a date on when they will be made and stock still hasn’t arrived. I am starting to worry my stamp will get here before the stock.
Depending on your hand placement on the MPX you get in your face the amount a suppressed pistol gives to full on nothing.
Look if it’s great, it is, we’ll know it and those of us who wish to will buy it. Only holding it and a test drive will tell.
I get your enthusiasm but I’ve been reading car magazines too long to get sucked in. ??
Preview: Whoa! Market killer. Stops better than this, faster than that, better fuel economy than it, skid pad better than the 300K exotica. Actual Review: no room in front or back seat. Two gallon tank negates great fuel economy. You have to drive at 17 mph for three months to get that average mpg if you accelerate quickly once. Car failed to start on 28 occasions in one month. With optional passenger seats and turn signals price exceeded all other cars in its group by $10K.
This gun is in the same category as most accessories from Porsche. Completely over priced. Unless there are a huge number of people that are just secretly converting these to SBR’s, I see no point in any of them. You can buy a “pistol” style AK for $500.
I got to agree with you here. So called “pistols” like this are cumbersome junk to me. The only way I would want to carry such a contraption was if it was automatic and had the option of being used as a SBR. Other than that these things are nothing more than toys and gee whiz look how scary this looks type items. I have found from my experience there are much more versatile and efficient way to fill this roll. Paperweights is what these are to me. I know some people love them and that is fine with me; any supporter of the second amendment gets my blessing. It takes all kinds.
Off subject:
Trying to get in touch with Nick. I dont twitter or any other social connectivity. I want to ask opinion about gun concept of mine.
Charles Rye
[email protected]
Patent Attorney, inventor
P see Hammer Cage I licensed to KNS
Takes all spring pressure off AR 15 and all SAR remove or installing hammer
(just to show I do invent)
So I can just put an AR15 buffer tube and stock on an APC9? What other stocks are available?
Hey we can all dream, right…? I would like all three of these sub-guns if it weren’t for Santa and Taxes…That said, if it’s ‘Black Friday’ and there all 25% off I’m grabbing the CZ.
However and please do not mock me with your “PC Incorrect Hurt Speech;)” I do have two rather quite capable sub-guns specifically made for those in my position looking for good value/performance, namely, Kel-Tec Sub2K and my Hi Point Carbines in 9&45. To be quite frank, one could have a couple of each for what the ingenious Swiss Engineers designed here…
Happy Holidays
Have you even played with a CZ Scoprion Evo 3? Adapting it to a “hurr durr totally not an SBR” brace takes pushing one button and sliding on the adapter. Installing the factory stock is the same way.
It is stupid statements like this that make me laugh every time I see “thuh troof about gats” linked anywhere.
I had wondered about the same thing. Adapting a stock to the EVO is about as simple as any gun I’ve ever seen.
Their folding stock is inexpensive and feels good. On the other hand… SIG’s folder is clunky at best. Their collapsible has the exact same issue as the MP5 A3 version, looks great, feels terrible.
I’m a discerning MP5 owner (read: snob)… I picked the EVO because it’s a beater MP5. It’s simple blowback, it’s cheap, it manipulates like the MP5 with a hold open, it’s reliable with very very few important parts, and I don’t care what some dude on the internet says, the SIG is as gassy as a 9mm AR. The SIG really seemed to me like all the bad parts about a piston carbine imo, looks really good though.
Trying figure out what you mean by MPX gassy, in your face ?? Yes own one, Gen 1 version, SBR’d. Maybe a few of you have little firearms experience or set up wrong. I am an FFL, a good friend has his 7 SOT, converted his MPX to full throttle with suppressor as well as having NAVY H&K MP5 with 4 way selector (safe, single, 3 burst and full). We talked after this read, actually laughed at some of the comments. Thousands of rounds through both MPX’s, still running great and the collapsible stocks have very little slop. As for the MP5 sloppy stock, yes it is but look into an ATI one or three position collapsible stock. Zero slop and less then half of a new factory one. Single position $ 150.00 and four way is only $ 200.00. H&K only makes the single and it runs around $ 400.00 give or take.
I have owned a GEN 1 MPX a couple of years now and the Scorpion for 1 year. Two mp5’s, H&K and Zenith 5RS, all SBR’s. Will leave the MP5’s out of my review as they were not in the original review. After reading this review, purchased the APC 9. Realized, it’s true, opinions are like rear-ends, everybody has one. Had it for 5 months, looking to sell now. Way overpriced in my opinion. Actually the MPX is by far my favorite for many reasons, better accuracy, the collapsible stock, which mine seems pretty damn tight (have one on a MCX, tight as well) readily available, mags are everywhere for sale and have found them under $ 50.00, installed a Geiselle SSA-E trigger (great upgrade for this gun), ergonomics and can go on. Scorpion is a great gun in it’s own right but definitely 2nd place. With the add on’s and SBR tax stamp’s for both, have just over $ 2,600 combined. Anyone interested in the APC-9, I will take a loss and sell for $ 1,900.00 shipped. I have an FFL to transfer. e-mail: [email protected].
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