Kel-Tec’s PMR-30 has earned the nickname “poor man’s Five-seveN” thanks to its light weight, high capacity, and fairly potent little caliber all in a semi-auto pistol format. While the 5.7×28 FN Five-seveN has always had a carbine companion in the PS90, Kel-Tec didn’t offer a buddy for its .22 WMR PMR-30 until now. Taking it a step further than FN, the release of Kel-Tec’s CMR-30 offers much more than simply a compact rifle in the same caliber, though, as the CMR uses the same magazines, controls, trigger, and more. . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjr04Hfsc9k
In The Box
The CMR-30 is nicely packaged inside of a white cardboard box, which also contains two magazines, owner’s manual, Kel-Tec 2015 catalog, gun lock where applicable, front sight adjustment tool, chamber flag, and Kel-Tec decal. Installed on the rifle is a set of Magpul flip-up AR-15 sights and a thread protector to prevent damage to the 1/2×28-threaded muzzle.
Likely to be the first thing anyone will notice is the CMR’s light weight. At 3.8 lbs, it barely outweighs some large, magnum revolvers.
The second thing you’ll notice is that it’s short. With the stock fully collapsed, the CMR is only 22.7″ long. Even with an AAC Element 2 suppressor installed, as seen above, it still fits inside my Blackhawk Diversion bag. Extend the stock and you’re looking at an OAL of 30.6″, good for a full-size, 14.2″ length of pull.
Features and Controls
“Ambidextrous” is a hot word these days in the gun market, and Kel-Tec didn’t leave much on the table here. The magazine release, thumb safety, stock release lever, and charging handles are fully ambi.
The charging handles do not reciprocate when the gun fires, and they lock forwards on a ball detent. They represent the widest point on the rifle at 2.9″ tip-to-tip, whereas the rest of the CMR is only about 1.2″ wide. If this is too thick, you can actually slim either or both of them down by removing the outside extension piece with the help of a hex wrench.
Like the PMR-30 — and this should be no surprise as they use the same mags — the CMR-30’s magazine release is on the heel of the grip. Depress the button and the magazine pops out into your hand.
U.S.-based shooters are more familiar with a thumb release near the trigger guard, whereas a heel release like this is much more common on European guns. Ultimately it may be a bit slower, but it’s easy and natural to use and is more conducive to smooth, “tactical reloads” where the removed magazine is retained rather than dropped to the ground (“speed reload”).
The mag release is certainly not the only control that’s the same as on the PMR, though. The thumb safety is identical, the trigger is identical, and the bolt/slide lock, which is the only non-ambi control, is identical.
In fact, it’s fair to say that the molds for these grip frames are effectively identical in many ways. As far as the parts you touch, grip, pull, and otherwise operate go, they are identical.
A shoulder stock is certainly a new addition, though, and the CMR has an app a control for that. A lever in front of the trigger guard, accessible with either hand’s trigger finger, is pulled downwards to release the stock for collapsing or extending. Actually, for fast action, extending the stock doesn’t require the use of the lever at all. It’s spring-loaded so it locks into place on its own.
It isn’t actually a wire stock, as a curved, aluminum bar makes up the support on either side. It’s capped off with a nylon butt plate. The rifle does fire regardless of the stock’s position, and length of pull is a short 10.3″ with it collapsed and 14.2″ with it extended.
On either side of the aluminum receiver is a T-shaped rail on which the stock glides. Alignment and fit is quite precise, but a tensioning spring inside each stock arm doubly ensures that there’s no rattle.
The entire top of the receiver is adorned with a ~14.25″ picatinny rail, providing plenty of space for various optics and other accouterments. Under the front of the receiver, installed on the handguard, is a further ~7.25″ of rail estate. Both of these rails are actually removable, although removing the top one would leave you without the ability to mount optics.
Removing the bottom one, however (requires a hex wrench and playing with four bolts), leaves you with a more rounded, ergonomic gripping surface that’s quite different from the grater-like picatinny rail we all know and love. Of course, with the rifle’s short size and compact dimensions that rail is likely to come in handy for mounting forward grips/hand stops of various sorts. Mine sported a little ERGO SURESTOP most of the time.
A steel eyelet on which to clip a sling adorns each side of the lower frame’s rear end. The gun is upside down in the photo above, fyi.
Thanks to standard 1/2×28 threads on the muzzle and a healthy shoulder, the CMR-30 will accept a near-unlimited number of muzzle devices. Basically anything that screws onto an AR-15 will work here as well, like any of the muzzle devices from Shootout #1 or #2, or the newcomer pictured above. It’s nice to have a rimfire suppressor with stainless steel internals that’s rated for .22 WMR, 5.7×28, .17 HMR, and basically all of the other, similar calibers in addition to .22 LR, of course.
How It Works
The only .22 LR or .22 WMR I know of that doesn’t operate on a straight blowback action is Kel-Tec’s PMR-30, which is still at least mostly blowback. Although it’s very much the “big brother” to the PMR, the CMR-30 is a traditional blowback action with a fixed barrel.
The PMR employs dual extractors, but the CMR makes due with one.
The horizontal groove seen above the steel bolt’s “.22 WMR” marking rides on a rail that is an integral part of the aluminum receiver. Fit is appropriately precise and the action is smooth.
Like the PMR, the CMR employs an internal hammer and it’s housed in a steel insert. In this case, the insert also provides some surfaces to help guide the bolt. A recoil buffer is at rear, and that vertical plate is the backstop for the recoil spring, which is part of the bolt assembly. The hammer spring is stiff.
I did film a field stripping video for anyone wanting a walk-through and more angles on the internals, but the field strip process is actually fairly easy. First, the CMR should be cocked, bolt forwards, safety on “safe.” From right to left, push out the pin that’s on the frame above the trigger. Pull the frame rearwards a little then down off of the receiver. Extend the stock a bit, pull on a charging handle to move the bolt rearwards so you can get a finger in front of it, then pull the bolt and the stock rearwards until they’re out of the receiver. Done. The bolt will follow the stock out anyway once those two nubs on the recoil spring end plate hit the springs inside the stock bars, but the manual tells you to do that work yourself.
Once field stripped, all of the parts are readily accessible for cleaning. And you will want to clean this thing.
Trigger
A good trigger is important. The PMR and CMR both have good triggers. Identical to each other, and very good. Certainly better than you’d expect given the MSRPs and the 2-piece plastic clamshell frame design, etc. They are true single-action triggers in that their only function is to drop the fully-cocked hammer.
They have a 2-stage feel to them, as there’ a very smooth pre-travel stage until the trigger stops on the sear, and then with just a bit more pressure you’re rewarded with an extremely crisp, excellent break followed by almost no overtravel. Break on my CMR is a light and consistent 3 lbs. The only place where the trigger falls short is its very light and quiet reset.
Accuracy
My intention was to shoot for groups at 100-yards, but I had tree cover blocking the blustery wind for about 60 yards and then it opened up, so 50-yard groups it was. Each of these ammo brands got five shots for group size as well as velocity testing over the previously-reviewed MagnetoSpeed V3 chronograph. Results were as follows:
It should be obvious that I didn’t spend a lot of ammo sighting it in exactingly, but it’s still worth mentioning that the reticle of the LUCID L5 was centered in that red bull for every shot. The 30 grain ammo definitely hit quite high and a touch left compared to the others. Additionally, I actually blame myself for that “flyer” in the Fiocchi group (1st pic). The light break got away from me and one of those five rounds went downrange without my full blessing.
On The Range
3.8 lbs is a really freakin’ light rifle, and the little Kel-Tec is as maneuverable and as easy to pack around as you’d expect. It even balances nicely enough to shoot pistol-style, as seen in the video, with arms (or arm) outstretched.
Of course, it’s meant to be shouldered and shot as a rifle and in some ways it exceeded my Kel-Tec carbine expectations. The CMR handles and balances more like an SBR, and the light weight plus the essentially non-existent recoil of the flat-shooting .22 magnum round make for an easy-to-shoot, deadly quick and accurate little gun. Add that crisp, light trigger to the mix and the result is a firearm that can make any shooter look good. It’s simply hard to miss with it.
A feature that certainly exceeded my expectations by a mile is the shoulder stock. Unlike basically every other telescoping, wire-esque stock I’ve played with, this one seems to have entirely nailed the compact, lightweight thing without compromising on actual shooting functionality at all. Excellent if not perfect, really. Not only is the cheek weld the exact correct height for the included AR-15 sights and any AR-15 height optic, but it’s comfortable! The curvature and the rounded edges of the stock bars are spot on. It’s way more comfortable than it looks, and it’s also much more solid than it looks.
My preferred indoor range in this area does a “Fun Shoot” every week, which involves a single, IPSC-style stage of varying design. Last week it was set up like interior hallways with shoot and no-shoot targets hiding through “doors” or down halls. Seemed like a great course to run the CMR through a scenario in which it would be well suited, especially for particularly recoil-sensitive persons. With a simple red dot, the little Kel-Tec carbine made quick work of the course, and accuracy was great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttI04E1P-lE
Unfortunately the CMR experience wasn’t all positive for me, and it broke down on the subject of…
Reliability
Rimfire ammo is not clean ammo, and my CMR wanted to be clean as well as fairly well-lubed. It actually arrived more or less bone dry, and ran fine for 32 rounds before suffering its first failure to feed. The bolt didn’t cycle far enough rearwards to strip the next round from the magazine, nor did it cock the hammer. This was the recurring failure I suffered when the gun got too dry and/or dirty. Fit is fairly precise and there’s lots of surface area reciprocating against other surface area.
The photo above shows what the inside of the receiver looks like after ~90 rounds. It just fills up with flecks of brass and copper and then gets worse from there as carbon and gunpowder deposit everywhere and dry up the works. After that first FTFeed with barely more than one magazine of ammo through it, the CMR simply refused to run until I lubed it up. However, I shot a lot of rounds through this gun, and came to trust it for about 160 rounds before failures to feed started up again.
I fully admit that experimenting with lube choice, even including dry lube like graphite, might have improved my success (I generally use a very lightweight oil, but can’t say if a lighter film lube or a grease might perform better here). Fortunately, some fresh lube applied to the bolt rails through the ejection port — no field stripping — would get it running again for a few more boxes of .22 Mag.
I’ll likely experiment with hammer spring weight a bit. It’s extraordinarily stiff. Stiffer than needed to reliably ignite even rimfire primers and, while it certainly acts in part as a recoil spring as well, I expect I’d gain some dirty-&-dry reliability fudge factor if cocking the hammer wasn’t such a challenge.
Conclusions
Accuracy, ease-of-use, and fun factor top the charts. Great ergos, great trigger, and I’m surprised by how much I like the telescoping stock. I absolutely love the fact that it takes the same, 30-round magazines as my PMR-30 and I love this combo for a “survival kit.” The PMR weighs 13 oz, the CMR 3.8 lbs, the little magazines weigh nothing at all, and 1,000 rounds of .22 WMR comes in at just 8.4 lbs (1k rounds of M193 is more like 27 lbs). That’s a lot of survival, fun, and utility in a minimal amount of space and at a bare minimum of weight.
Unfortunately, the survival rifle fantasy broke down with the poor reliability. My PMR has been pretty solid, but I can’t currently trust the CMR unless it’s clean and lubed, and then only for ~160-or-so rounds. As it’s a straight blowback action I’m relatively confident I can tune the lube choice and the spring setup to beat this glitch entirely, but I sure wish it was fully hammered out from the factory. Of course, this is one of the very first CMRs to leave said factory, and feedback from early adopters often leads to little production and tooling tweaks that benefit more patient purchasers.
If Kel-Tec can produce enough to meet demand, or at least enough that prices on GunBroker hover right around MSRP, I’m still fairly bullish on the CMR-30. The .22 WMR is a solid cartridge for varmint hunting or, in a survival scenario, hunting larger critters as well, and the CMR-30 is accurate enough to put it to good use. The high capacity, compact size, light weight, and complete absence of recoil also make it a valid choice for home defense. When cleaned and lubed, that is.
Specifications: Kel-Tec CMR-30
Caliber: .22 WMR
Capacity: 30+1 rounds
Barrel Length: 16.1″
Overall Length: 22.7″ to 30.6″ (stock collapsed or extended, respectively)
Height: 6.6″
Weight: 3.8 lbs (empty)
Material: aluminum upper receiver, glass-reinforced Zytel lower grip frame
Finish: hard coat anodizing on the aluminum
Sights: Magpul MBUS
Trigger Pull Weight: 3 lbs (as tested)
MSRP: $630
Ratings (Out of Five Stars):
Ergonomics: * * * * *
Ambi everything, and in easy-to-reach locations. Lots of [surprisingly comfortable] stock adjustment. Light, maneuverable, and very easy to shoot.
Reliability: * *
It’s tuned finely enough that a lack of lubrication and/or a bit too much schmutz in the works stopped it in its tracks repeatedly. That said, it feeds perfectly from the magazine into the chamber, and it extracts and ejects reliably.
Fit & Finish: * * * 1/2
It’s above my expectations for a Kel-Tec. No offense, Kel-Tec. Just, you know, I’m used to mold flashings and little lips and tooling marks and some gaps and such. MSRPs are more than fair for the level of finish. Yeah, there’s a seam where the clamshell halves of the grip frame meet, but other than that the machining and finish on the CMR-30 are really quite nice. The aluminum and steel look great everywhere.
Trigger: * * * *
Much better than it should be at this price. It would be a 5-star trigger if it had any sort of pronounced reset.
Customize This: * * * *
Lots of rail estate, and it’s nice that the handguard rail can be removed for a smoother grip, if desired. Factory-threaded barrel opens up options. Sling eyes plus rails for additional sling mounts, and a 5-position adjustable stock. This is a lot of adaptability in the .22 LR / .22 Magnum market.
Overall: * * * *
I’m conflicted between 3 and 4 stars on this one. Obviously the CMR’s distaste for being dry or dirty is a big issue for anyone wanting to depend on it for a survival or defensive firearm. However, that’s just one possible use for what is also an extremely fun little carbine to plink with on the range, target shoot, or hunt small game with, none of which demand unfaltering semi-auto reliability in all conditions. Less-than-stellar reliability is also the only hit to the ratings here. The form factor, utility, and perfectly-matched PMR pistol pushed me to 4 stars for the PMR.
Be nice if I could find .22 WMR ammo.
Not that hard
http://ammoseek.com/ammo/22-magnum
ACADEMY 12.00 DOLLARS….PLENTY AROUND..
Walmart $ 13.00
Its good to see that someone got to use one of the CMR-30s out of the roughly 15 that Kel-Tec will actually manufacture.
I’m still looking for the book ”Catching Unicorns: Finding The Latest Kel-Tec Products For Less Than 250% Msrp” on Amazon.
I now own two . I shot about 700 rounds through the first and maybe 200 through the newest one which I just got about a month ago . I use light oil and grease and have found that both my CMRs prefer heavy grain hot ammo .
I love mine and I also own 2 PMRs and 15 magazines . I have managed to accumulate over 6000 rounds of ammo the last couple of years . It’s out there , but you have to beat me to it , and be willing to pay for it . It can be as much as 9mm but this new shit hits about as hard as 9mm and will penetrate a class IIA body protection .
That gun catalog is more like a book of Rarities and Curios
So, .22 WMR ammunition is made with the same low-grade materials as .22LR (probably a necessity for rimfire primer ignition) and Kel-Tec couldn’t find a way to keep all that debris from getting into the works an still come in at a low price-point.
At least in my neck of the woods, ALL rimfire ammunition is still scarce, and firearms that I can’t feed are of little interest to me.
Side note about the photos in the review. Is it too much to ask that one of the FIRST photos of a reviewed firearm be in out-of-the-box configuration? It’s nice that you have a can to use with this firearm, but the can isn’t what is being reviewed. Only the very last photo shows the Kel-Tec threaded barrel as manufactured with a thread protector.
Actually it’s shown in factory config on the bottom of pic 10 also 😉 …which was going to be the lead pic, but I didn’t like it very much. The final photo was already the lead pic for this post so I didn’t want to repeat it.
At any rate, I’ll keep that in mind for next time!
I think such reliability problems are not an absolute requirements for a rimfire carbine. My M&P 15-22 will shoot 300 rounds of 22LR at the range without a single malfunction. I have never tested it to failure and clean my guns after every outing, but it certainly sounds like it could be more reliable for the price.
Do kel tec rifles and shotguns fall under curios so I can just have them shipped to my door with a Curio and Relic license?
LOL. While 5 of the first 5 comments mention either .22 WMR or Kel-Tec being as scarce as unicorns, I have to ask if you guys are actually even looking for Kel-Tecs? This is like a meme that has outlived its reality.
The only models that can be difficult for an LGS to get these days — excepting this brand new CMR-30 which, yeah, is going to be scare and price-gouged for a while — are the PMR-30 and the RFB, and both are all freakin’ over GunBroker at or even under MSRP! I’m seeing dozens of RFB listings for $100+ under MSRP. There’s over 100 PMR-30s on GB right now. The rest of Kel-Tec’s line is readily available and if your LGS doesn’t stock it they can order any of it from their distributor(s) and have it quickly. It simply isn’t true in May of 2015 that these guns are impossible to get.
The truth is, if you want one you can buy one today AND you aren’t going to pay more than MSRP (except, again, for the CMR).
Truth. I never have trouble finding any Kel-Tec product any time I want. I actually look around tho and know how to Internet. In the midst of everyone crying about how the RFB was STILL impossible to find, I picked a like-new Gen 2 RFB on armslist. Guy had discounted it twice because he had no bites and it was up for a month. I paid him his original asking price just cuz he was so heartbroken to be selling it just after getting it. Was still well below MSRP while everyone who claimed to want one also claimed it was vaporware.
Do gun guys still not know how to google? If you don’t want it bad enough to spend 4 seconds on google, you must not want it that bad…
I think the whiners just don’t have any money. I paid more for the RFB than my last two cars and bike… Life is hard. It’s even harder when you’re stupid.
Let me know how you do finding a sub-2000 at your local gun shop.
I have a Sub 2000 and a Sub 9. I don’t understand how people say they can’t find them.
They are extremely scarce if you want one for nothing , If you’re willing to pay above MSR price , they can be found .
What these people should say is , ” I can’t find a PMR for $ 250.00 or a CMR for $ 350.00 .”
I haven’t found any Keltec weapons to be scarce. Expensive, but not scarce.
Now, it does take a fair amount of searching to find them at a reasonable price, ya just have to be persistent and have some patience.
To date,….I’ve found a PMR30 for $450 with 2 mags, a Sub 2000 S&W 9mm for $450, and the KSG 15 rd, 12 gauge for $629.
All have functioned well and all needed to be well lubed when I 1st used them.
Ammo has been fairly easy to find, even the 22 mag. As I mentioned before, ya have to keep looking and be persistent to find the best deals.
I regularly visit a couple of local gun stores, which both carry quite good selections. As far as Kel-Tec’s go, they almost always have P3AT, PF9, and P11 in stock. I’ll occasionally see a P32, and have seen an SU-16, and a Sub2000 each once or twice. I’ve never seen them with a PMR, KSG, RFB, etc. in stock. The RFB is not a new gun. It’s been out like 5-6 years. The Sub2000 has been out forever. Well stocked gun stores should have them.
I suppose they could probably do a special order for Kel-Tec products. One of them ordered a Saiga in for me a few years back. I usually don’t like to do special orders. I like to look at the gun in my hands before I decide to buy it or not. I’m also impatient. If I’ve got the money for a gun now – then I want the gun now.
Finally, I won’t pay MSRP for a gun. Being cheap, I usually buy used guns, milsurps, or new guns on sale. For the new ones, I like to keep the price somewhere in the 70-80% MSRP.
The only Kel-Tec I have seen at the local gun store was a PF-9, and it sat there a LONG time. Maybe because they always had the original Ruger LC9 right next to it in the gun case. Those they sold plenty of. Most people who picked up and handled both would choose the Ruger.
This rifle might be fun for plinking, but all those obvious plastic seams and the exposed nuts around the trigger guard just make it look like a cheap toy. Like something that should shoot plastic BBs or suction darts. Nothing about it’s appearance says ‘real gun’ to me, let alone ‘quality gun’.
Seriously… A month or two after release I’ve always seen Kel-Tec’s for sale at a shop. It may not last long but I see them. No it won’t be like a Glock that you can walk into every shop and find, they’re not that kind of company. Even so the shop I frequent has had an RFB and KSG on display for quite a bit.
I’ve had and sold a sub-2000 (Glock 9mm) and still have a SU-16. This unicorn junk is just noise from those not looking very hard. I’ve seen every production Kel-tec in the last year for sale in person except the CMR.
Between just the two FFLs that I frequent in town here, there are at least three KSGs, one RFB (which is priced under MSRP and has been on the rifle wall for a few months), a half dozen PMRs in a couple of colors, and even two CMRs (although they’re on GunBroker because, as much as this shop really, really tries to sell locally at a fair price even when they could get more on GB, at the moment the CMR is doubling MSRP on GB and that’s just too much $$$ to pass up just to sell to somebody here at half the price, so I have zero issue with them doing this whatsoever).
MSR 630? How about 14 or 1500…and how can it be 4stars with such poor reliability? And have any of you shot the EAA Appeal in 22mag? A mite cheaper if it runs ok. For $1500 I can get a real 5.7…but it’s good to hear about the PMR running well.
I explained the rating.
MSRP is $630. What people ask for them on GunBroker right now isn’t relevant to MSRP. Kel-Tec is selling them to distributors at whatever normal distributor cost is (e.g. MSRP minus 25%). Retailers are almost certainly buying them from distributors at whatever normal wholesale cost is. They’re the ones selling them on GB for double MSRP, and that’s because people are paying it. I have zero problem with them doing it, too. And Kel-Tec will continue making them as rapidly as it can, of course. Eventually they’ll be sold at and under MSRP when supply matches then exceeds demand. Just like every other Kel-Tec has. They also claim their production capacity is way up, so we’ll see how long it takes for CMR prices to become sane. Hopefully faster than it took KSG, RFB, PMR prices to come down…
No offense to EAA, as I like many of its products, but the Appeal is not appealing to me at all. Nothing about the form factor interests me whatsoever. There are a few other .22 WMR carbines on the market and I’d basically choose any one of them before the Appeal. Starting w/ the CZ 512, most likely.
LOL-my next gun might be a Hi-point carbine in 40 or 45( the ballistics on 40 are great). And I had a Keltec sub2000 in 9 as well as a PF9. Just not terribly impressed with the quality. And I don’t care if it’s American-so is a Hi-point…
If you have a Glock, you could go MechTech upper in .40…
The quality on the CMR is better than the Gen1 Sub-2000 for sure (and I did own one of those). The machining, materials, and fit and finish are markedly better everywhere except maybe for the polymer grip frame, which is pretty much what you’d expect. Although I should say that any KT with the ‘waffle pattern’ mold is definitely nicer than anything from KT that used their old checkered pattern moldings.
A 22 RIFLE WHOO IM SO AMAZED. MY 10/22 IS MORE TACTICAL THEN THAT THING IF HAVE A ACOG ON IT AND A ARCHANGLE STOCK AND I CAN ACTUALLY FIND ONE THERE IS NO WAY I AM PAYING TONS OF MONEYFOR CHEAP CHINESE JUNK AND GOOD LUCK FINDING ONE. BESIDES NO REAL MAN OPERATES WITH ANYTHING ELSS THAN A 308 BATTLE RIFLE IN VIETNAM THEY CALLED M16S POODLE SHOOTERS SO I GUESS THIS THING IS A RAT SHOOTER HAHAHAHA. YOUD BE BETTER OFF GETTING A MOSHEEN NAGANT AND PUTTING A FIBERGLASS STOCK ON IT. YOU CAN SPRAY PAINT IT CAMO TO BE MORE TACTICAL. WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH UR FANCY 22 JUNK RIFLE IF A BEAR ATTACKED YOU? YA I THOUGHT SO.
Off your meds Carl?
DUDE I HAVE A FIBERGLASS STOCK, CAMO “MOSHEEN NAGANT”!!! IT’S HELLA TACTICOOL! (link)
BTW say what you will about Kel-Tec, but it’s 100% U.S. owned, U.S. made, from U.S. parts. It’s possible some of their products feel like Chinese toys haha, but they ain’t. Also, a Glock 20 is my “bear gun” for hiking in the woods, but I’ll have you know that the world record largest grizzly bear ever killed was killed with a .22 LR (link)!
Carl, there are two buttons I would like you to find on your keyboard. One of them is on the left, next to the “A” and it says either “Caps” or “Cap Lock.” See it? Yeah, push that one. The other is down at the bottom right and has this “>” with this under it “.” Every time you finish a thought, push that one and then start the next thought. Thanks for your time.
ARENT YOU SO FUNNY MR FANCYPANTS CITY TALKER ILL HAVE YOU KNOW THAT I KNOW WHAT MATTER HOW TO LIVE IN THE UBSH. MY BOB IS READY TO GO AT ALL TIMES AND MY BOL IS SCOUTED AND CASHAYS ARE READY TO GO TO. ILL TAKE THAT ANY DAY OVER KNOWING HOW TO WRITE LIKE A LAWYER BECAUSE WHEN THE COUNTRY WAKES UP AND KNOWS 911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB IT WILL BE TOO LATE AND YOU CAN WRITE REAL FANCY IN YOUR FEMA CAMP WHILE I HAVE MY GARDEN AND MY SOLAR PANELS HANGING OUT WITH A REAL RIFLE HAHAHAHA
Meh. B-/C+ attempt, at best. TheBear’s original “Operator Carl” stuff yesterday on Sara’s “I’m Not Tacticool” post was much funnier.
A wise man once told me there is a little bit of Carl in all of us. We have to be vigilant or one day we too might start adding patches to our tac gear that we no longer fit into.
A – “I don’t have any Operator Carl in me!”
B – “Are you sure?”
A – “Yes.”
B – “… would you like some?”
::groan::
I see “Operator Carl” is apparently going to be a thing now. Great. Let’s see how long it takes for this to go from cute satire to stale and annoying.
I’m already wishing this internet commando would blow his brains out all over his keyboard. I’m pretty sure than means it’s reached “stale and annoying”.
Classy. Please teach me your ways, o sage.
DORK
The length of pull looks like it should perhaps be 24.2″ when the butt stock is extended, not 14.2″ as stated.
Length of pull is distance from the end of the butt stock to the trigger. It’s 14.2″ extended and 10-something inches collapsed.
Jeremy, as much as you were spinning that CMR during the last of the video, I was halfway expecting to see a marching band in the background and/or hear some Sousa. 🙂
LOL. It’s very light!
the unreliability smells like kel-tec built it with insufficient engineering tolerance; they had the same problem with the ksg when it first came out.
if it’s too tight, then it can’t handle any grit, which is why AK’s have HUGE tolerances, and, thus, they can (nearly) live up to their reputation.
From a glass-half-full perspective, you could say this Kel-Tec is at least as reliable as a $6000 Cabot Black Diamond… 😉
LOL
On the reliability front, one question. Did you run it suppressed 100% of the time, Jeremy? I didn’t see if you mentioned that in the review, or not.
You’re supposed to watch the video and click the ads like forty times while you’re at it 😉
I ran it suppressed most of the time, but not all of the time. It absolutely gets dirtier faster with a can on the end, but the difference isn’t really that big w/ the 16″ bbl and blowback action anyway. It choked on the second magazine because it was dry of any lube from the factory so that really had nothing to do with suppressor or not. After the second time I cleaned and lubed it I ran it w/out suppressor with the PMR joining the party and shot it for a while before doing the accuracy testing unsuppressed, and it stopped during that accuracy testing. Fixed with a drop of lube on each bolt rail (since I did it through the ejection port, the left rail got lube on the rail and the right rail actually got lube in the bolt groove) and ran fine for a while after that. Not sure on round count unsuppressed before it started failing on me, but I’m relatively confident it was still in the 160-ish range like it was while shooting suppressed.
…in theory, even though it’ll get dirtier faster w/ the can on, the additional backpressure would also send the bolt rearwards with more energy, meaning it could actually get dirtier before short stroking… *might* explain similar round counts before FTFeeds whether suppressed or not…
I have to wait ’til I get home to watch the videos, my office comp has more blocks than the LEGO factory. 😀
Interesting. I didn’t think about the backpressure possibly making it as “reliable” as unsuppressed. My M&P22 starts to have issues after a couple of boxes with my Element 2, and bulk pack junk.
So all Kel-Tec has to do is produce the CMR in a centerfire caliber (9mm, for example), and we’ll have the perfect survival/car/truck/boat/zombie carbine.
You mean, like Sub-2000?
If the SUB2000 looked as good as the CMR, had a collapsing stock and a side charging handle that didn’t require 100 lbs of pull to operate.
…although if the CMR were in 9mm it would have to be larger and heavier with a much stiffer recoil spring, so some of the form factor and easy-to-rack charging handle would be lost…
Like the Stag Arms Model # 9 ………. try it out .
Jeremy….you’re lube issue
Check out this extremely in-depth lubricant review.
Seems like the Hornady One Shot dry lube might be a good match.
I’m in the process of experimenting with it myself for my poly Evo.
http://www.shootersforum.com/gun-cleaning/91566-results-gun-care-product-evaluation.html
Cool. I may give it a shot for rimfire stuff. A dry lube would be ideal.
As for the CZ Evo, pretty sure nothing will get it to stop. I have yet to clean or lube mine after more than 500 rounds of dirty reloads through it plus some factory ammo — and have been shooting it almost exclusively suppressed — and it gives zero indication whatsoever that it’s even considering slowing down in any way. It’s also surprisingly clean. I think the extremely heavy bolt allows everything to exit the muzzle before the case comes out of the chamber and, despite the straight blowback action, it isn’t getting the inside of the receiver or the bolt very dirty… dry, wet, full of dirt, I pretty much expect it to just keep going…
Great review as always, Mr S.
FWIW – Having a lot of experience with Sub2k’s, I now run grease on mine now (on the bolt, and top of hammer) – after a little fluff n buff and break-in – and got them to work pretty darn reliably (got past that stove-pipe-on-the-last-round-issue and doesn’t start getting cranky when it’s hot/after a couple hundred rounds). Makes it messier to clean up, but oh well. I found that oil lubes just disappear after it gets hot (also being a blowback). Wonder if that would be similar with CMR 30?
Peace ….and thanks for the awesome review. I hope YOU are the one who does the review for the new Sub2k. I can’t wait… 40% larger ejection port, new polymer, better grip, new railed fore end, metal front site (removable with a set screw and threaded for a can), improved and adjustable stock with a sling point, etc…
Sub2kV2 does look a lot nicer than V1! I think doesky2’s Hornady One Shot suggestion above is a good one, as I think the ideal lube here will be a dry lube. The rimfire ammo is so much dirtier than centerfire in both powder residue and flecks of brass/copper, that an oil lube or grease will gunk up as all of that crap sticks to it. I think a dry lube will keep things slippery for longer, in part because a lot of that crap will hopefully fall off and get out of the way on its own instead of sticking…
The other thing is that the hammer spring is just really freaking strong, and it doesn’t take much friction on the bolt at all to prevent it from being capable of cocking the hammer on its trip rearwards. In nearly all of the FTFeed instances, the hammer also wasn’t cocked. Pretty sure the bolt’s rearwards travel was effectively stopped by the hammer.
That does sounds similar to the sub2k (really strong hammer spring). Guessing that would probably get better with some more break-in time (kind of a thing with kel tecs it seems). It still looks cool though. I’d love to add one to the collection some day… Just have to get my MCX pistol/SBR first 🙂 (hint, hint… they are shipping… can’t wait for a review!)
First, I have to say that I like Kel Tec guns, and I currently own 3 of them. I am even honest enough to admit that I carry a PF9 as my BUG for my EDC XD. I know a LOT of people don’t like them and cite reliability problems with the PF9, but I have had zero problems with mine.
I also own a Sub 2000 that ticks like a clock. So, I am a happy Kel Tec owner.
That should tell you that this looks like an excellent two gun system. I like two gun systems. Our Sub 2000 crosses with my wife’s Beretta 92, and our Hi Point Carbine crosses with a Hi Point .45 (both of which are very reliable). So adding this is on our list is a logical next step. But, I will probably wait a year or so until Kel Tec has a chance to work through the early production issues.
And despite all the . . . concerns I hear from people about the availability of both Kel Tecs and .22 LR and .22 WMR, I really haven’t had much trouble finding any of those. You just have to go a step further than going to Wal Mart and then giving up if they don’t have what you’re looking for. Try http://ammoseek.com/
This looks like a neat little gun, even with it’s quirks. For the other complaining about no Kel Tecs around, well I agree for the most part. Whe I moved last summer I finally got to see a Kel Tec product that wasn’t a pistol or Sub 2000. My LGS gets RFBs every so often and charges a fair price for them. They also get loads of KSGs. They even have a PMR-30 for sale last I checked. I am not sure if they have a CMR 30 yet, I will have to check this weekend.
Let’s be perfectly and bluntly honest here. It’s a kel tec. Which means it will fuck up and you will have problems with it. If there is one constant besides death and taxes it’s that kel tec firearms are some of the most cheaply made, chronic failure firearms on the market today. They have kind of taken over that title. I don’tcare who says they are great. Your wrong. I can tell you as a gunsmith the failure rate on kel tec has to be around 50 percent. Which is flat embarrassing. You can dress it up. Make it look cool and tactical, but it’s a kel tec in the end so it’s a pile of garbage. The ksg is a great example. Looks cool. But talk to people who owm them or have shot them. Serious cycle issues, has double the recoil of a standard shotgun and is simply a neat looking peice of shit. And almost every pistol they have ever made tend to have serious, if not dangerous, flaws and problems. When you have years and years of a horrible reputation in the market it’s kind of hard to change that perception and I for one still have that perception of them and don’t ever see it changing.
And for those on here that carry a kel tec as an edc, your riskin your life. Litetally. Don’t give me this shit about you own one and it’s never given you problems. your just admitting your too cheap or dumb to go buy a reliable firearm that has a much better success rate and a much better reputation all to save a buck. No sane firearms expert will tell you that a kel tec is a smart option compared to other comparable firearms. All they can say is its the cheapest. And that usually in almost all products from cars to televisions to gun means your getting a much inferior product. And if you try to argue that your simply lying to yourself
@John hope.
Thanks for your insights. Some important things to understand about the PF9 include:
1. The gun requires a break-in period – shoot, clean – shoot, clean, etc.
2. It’s a very light gun, so it has a lot more recoil than heavier guns, this causes some people to limp wrist it a little too much, resulting failures to cycle completely. You have to keep your grip firm to allow enable the energy of the recoil to work the action.
3. As mentioned above, PF9s are very light and do best when they are kept clean. They are nowhere near as resistant to functioning dirty as a Glock or many other heavier guns.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for saying this, but I have never had a malfunction with mine. I carry it regularly as a BUG to my XD.
I want to SBR one.
I wish FN would make something similar that took 5-7 pistol magazines.
Probably easier for Kel-Tec to make a version of the CMR-30 chambered in 5.7×28 that accepts Five-seveN mags…
Of course, one nice thing about the P90/PS90 is the 50-round capacity. Plus those factory mags only run like $22. So, yeah, no magazine sharing between Five-seveN and PS90 but you do get something for the trouble…
I just ordered my CMR30 , due to arrive around the 12th and it will be added to my Kel Tec line of fun and destroy toys . Not that these are actually toys but if I was still a kid something from Kel Tec would be on my Santa list . I love shooting my PMR 30 and don’t really mind the 39 cents a round target practice but these soft triggers and 30 round magazines can sure dump $ 12.00 in a hurry . I don’t have any other vices though so I can live with it . I burnt up a lot more money when I was a smoker and all I had to show for it was a dirty ashtray , dirty lungs and a lot more head colds . Two years today quitting cigarettes , cold turkey . I figured I was spending about $ 7.00 a day . I have a lot more fun now with an extra $ 2,500.00 a year cash . Guns and ammo . NICE . Can’t wait to practice putting holes in my targets with my $ 1,500.00 CMR 30 . Thanks Marlboro .
Shot it Saturday at 15 , 25 , and approximately 40 yards using only 40 grainers . Armscore , CCI , Winchester and Remington’s and no problems with any of the ammo . All fired flawlessly and the groups were fairly consistent . I actually preferred the Armscore stuff for both cost and function . I was on paper easy with my bore sight and an additional red dot sight . It took me about 10 shots to be in 2 inch groups at 25 yards in the red dot and after a little play I was grouping 3-4 inches at 40 and this is satisfactory for me . I’m only after small game with this gun but I will shoot it until I feel confidant I can drop a dog at 100 yards . This is a real fun shooter and I luv me 22 mags . Practice everyone .
You say it gets dirty fast and a stops working, but you’re not clear as to how much that problem is caused by having it suppressed. Your review leaves a big, hanging question in that regard.
I’ve ran a couple hundred bucks of ammo through mine , no Arms core , mostly CCI and Speer Gold dots , so I guess about 500 rounds and I’ve only had it apart for one cleaning , after about 175 rounds , I didn’t notice it to be that bad . It wasn’t acting up at all and I actually only experienced maybe 10 to 15 failure to feeds in all . Usually at the beginning of a mag so probably over filled the mag or dented casings by over filling the magazines . Twenty eight is usually topping off pretty good . I will be taking mine apart again this weekend so I’ll update but I’m really not expecting any problems . I usually clean all my guns after every extensive shooting session so I’m not really doing anything different here . I love mine and as soon as the price drops I will buy another one . This is a fun and potent shooter and I may be just lucky so far but both my PMR 30’s and this new CMR have operated flawlessly for me . I recommend them if you can afford them .
Wasn’t there another Company that had a License to Produce the CMR-30. I know that Swedish Interdymanics AB, Grendel of Sweden and Intertec of Sweden produced Licensed copies of the PMR-30. Also, the .22TCM (.224/5.7×26) can be Chambered in EITHER the CMR-30, PMR-30 and RMR-30…
For .9 ounce more, you can get a Kel Tec SU-16C in .223/5.56. Or if you can find one, the SU 16D is lighter then the CMR30 by .1 ounce, and it’s chambered in 5.56.
Mine would not feed right out the box. Binding rounds to point that barrel is shaving brass off the case and bending rounds. Been having trouble getting Kel Tec to fix problem.
My CMR-30 does not accumulate the debris that you showed. I easily run 400 rounds through it at the range with only minimal debris of any kind. I like the higher powered and velocity CCI A22. This rifle is likely a bit short for a complete burn so I have some residual powder in a few places. However, nothing like shown here. While I use the CCI Maxi-Max or the CCI V-tip, there is almost no residual. The barrel cleans very easily.
I really enjoy shooting mine. It is very similar to an AR-15 but without the sharp kick. Also being less than half the weight with a full clip, it is much easier to shoot a long time. Also hauling in the field is a breeze because of the lower weight and shorter length.
The clip does require careful loading. I have found that a “speed loader” makes a world of difference in getting the rounds to stack properly. The clip still should be banged against the back every few rounds.
I purchased my CMR 30 yesterday got home and didn’t even fire 20 rounds through it and it hung up on every round. The bolt kept getting stuck back even after lubing it up. Finally spit broken parts out of it. I owned it less than 24 hour and now it’s on it’s way back to the factory for repairs. In my professional opinion it’s JUNK ! I’ll never EVER buy another Kel Tec product !
I’m pretty sure you shouldn’t use anything less than 40 gr ammo. The operator’s manual said something about 30-35 gr not being heavy enough to efficiently use the full blow-back design. It also stated that you can expect malfunctions if you use ammo that isn’t at least 40 gr.
Just bought my cmr 30 this week, haven’t had it out to the range yet. Put a red dot on it,( hope I didn’t goof up with that one ), and hopefully I can take it out this week and break it in.
Sorry everyone, still haven’t shot my cmr 30 yet, too many irons in the fire ( so to speak ), been playing with a Ruger 1022 challenger and thinking about a folding stock for that, but with Mr Biden’s new directive, maybe I’ll go back to working with the cmr 30 for a back back firearm or truck firearm for the farm.
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