Remington’s newly announced R51 is a modern version of the old Remington Model 51 [above], released in 1918 and discontinued some time around 1927. This is Remington’s second “updated” pistol after the 1911 R1, and I get the distinct impression they’re slowly working their way through the old designs and re-releasing the good stuff with modern machining and metals. Not that I’m complaining; there are a number of discontinued designs that I’d love to get my hands on (H&K P7 and the BHP spring immediately to mind) and the Model 51 is a fine choice for resurrection . . .
The original Remington Model 51 relied on a unique type of action created by John Pedersen, a designer best known for the “Pedersen Device” that turned a bolt-action Springfield 1903 rifle into a semi-automatic magazine-fed pistol caliber rifle with a simple bolt change. Like the original, the latter day Model 51’s barrel remains fixed in place. After ignition, the breech block slides slightly backwards before tilting down and out of the way, imparting enough momentum to the slide to carry it through the reloading cycle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOxeLEQZNxo
There are two benefits to this operating mechanism. First, it allows for a lighter recoil spring (the breech block is separate from the slide and less force is required to cycle the action). This makes the R51 easier to rack than a normal firearm – a good thing for women and older shooters. Second, as the recoil spring is placed around the barrel, there’s no need for a separate recoil spring guide rod. This accounts for the gun’s thin design and lowered bore axis. The end result: a flatter shooting gun with less felt recoil.
The original Model 51 was pretty slick in its own right, but Remington has gone the extra mile to modify the R51 for concealed carry. They’ve rounded everything on the gun – including the rear sights — which means the pistol can slide freely out of a holster or pocket. The only exception is the forward end of the R51’s rear sight; it’s squared off to allow the shooter to rack the gun on a belt or other surface one-handed. The magazine release is recessed into the frame, giving the side of the gun a very smooth surface with no protruding controls. Remington also added some streamlined cuts in the slides that reduce weight and make it blend in better in a pocket or other flat carry position.
Not all of these improvements are actual improvements, though — the recessing of the magazine baseplate is a carry mod too far. The magazine’s baseplate sits flush with the surrounding metal, making it nice and smooth. But when you try and insert the magazine into the gun with the palm of your hand – like a normal reload – you have to physically press the magazine into the gun until the magazine catch clicks. Otherwise the gun won’t run.
The original R51 had a manual safety in addition to the grip safety, but the retro-mod R51 goes without. Instead the gun ships with only the 1911-like grip safety found on the original; it’s practically impossible to hold the Remington R51 without engaging the device. It’s my favorite kind of safety feature: one I don’t have to think about. On paper, then, the Remington R51 is a solid win. On the range . . .
Pull the trigger on a live round and the first issue rears its ugly head: the Remington R51 is painful to shoot, even with light loads. Granted this is a common complaint for wafer-thin compact 9mm handguns, but I was expecting the smoother stylings of the R51 and the lighter recoil of the Pedersen action to eliminate some of that discomfort.
The R51’s grip safety area (located right where the webbing of your hand grips the gun) has two jagged ridges along which the safety rides. These ridges focus the force of the recoil on an extremely small area of your hand. Combined with the R51’s low bore axis . . . for the first time in years I was getting slide bite. The left side of the R51’s slide rail contacted my hand when the gun cycles. By the end of the range day, my admittedly oversized hand looked like someone beat it with a hammer. [NB: RF was having the same issues with his mid-size mitts.]
Smaller firearms that are painful to shoot aren’t anything new. Airweight .357 Magnum revolvers continue to fly off the shelves nationwide (a fact which boggles my mind). But it’s a bad thing, not a good thing. Owners are far more likely to practice their marksmanship and tactics with an easy shooting carry gun than with a personally punishing firearm. There are other, even more important concerns . . .
At the Remington SHOT Show booth, I discovered that the R51’s trigger had no perceptible reset. The trigger’s take-up and break were exquisite, but there was no tactile feedback when the sear had reset and the gun was ready to fire again. The guys at the booth claimed this wasn’t a bug. Out on the range you won’t even notice it. As they say in The Land of Hope and Glory, pull the other one it’s got bells on.
Running the gun, I found myself constantly pulling the R51’s trigger short of the reset – especially when trying to shoot quickly. Judging the reset point is difficult, and it seems to take ages to get the trigger ready for the next shot. In the video above you can clearly see my finger moving backwards and nothing happening. I had to mentally condition myself to touch the trigger guard with my fingernail after every round, which increased my shot-to-shot split times.
Guns & Ammo’s writer said he was quicker with the R51 shot-to-shot than with his other guns. Unless he’s benefited from some specialized training, I don’t see how that’s possible. Even after shooting more than 500 rounds and plenty of dry firing I was still pulling the R51’s trigger before it reset. Having that much movement in my trigger finger also didn’t help with my accuracy. It added more lateral movement in the shot pattern than with any other gun I own.
Speaking of accuracy, the R51 gets it done. This 2-inch five round group was shot from the five yard line. Saying that, I regularly see one ragged hole out of either my Wilson Combat 1911 or the FNS-9. The R51’s offer better [off-hand] accuracy than some other compact guns I’ve tested recently but it’s not top of the pops either.
The R51’s low bore axis and lighter slide did indeed reduce felt recoil and allowed me to get on target quickly. There was another pleasant surprise: the R51 wasn’t that much more painful to shoot with +P 9mm ammo, and recoil with +P isn’t any stouter than normal ammo. Relatively speaking, at least — the +P loads were no more painful than any other rounds, yet still painful to shoot. It’s also entirely possible that my hand was too numb from pain at that point to know the difference. I tested the gun using standard American Eagle 9mm rounds and a broad smattering of hollow point ammunition to ensure that standard self defense loads would run in the gun.
To its credit, the R51 didn’t seem to have any issues with liking one brand of ammunition over another. It malfunctioned equally with all of them.
I know people who think that disassembling a GLOCK for cleaning and maintenance is too much work. The R51 is not the alternative carry gun they’re looking for. Disassembling Remington’s carry piece is almost as “challenging” as changing an M1 Carbine’s extractor. No one will intuitively understand that you need to grab the R51’s barrel and pull it forward to get the slide free, and getting an American male to read the instruction manual is about as likely as Robert bagging his latest supermodel crush. But they really should [read the manual].
When you re-assemble the R51 you must slip a small tab on the slide stop of the gun underneath this little spring. You must insert it perfectly parallel to the slide. If you tilt the slide stop upwards by as little as a 1/16th of an inch, if it rides above the spring, the gun will malfunction. As Robert found out it might even refuse to feed. Not to put too fine a point on it, replacing the slide stop properly could be the difference between life and death in a self defense situation.
At the Remington booth, a display model failed to return to battery a couple times. The guy running the display admitted that the gun was improperly reassembled. A different gun cycled perfectly. The fact that Remington’s own sales reps – the guys specifically trained on the use of the gun – didn’t re-assemble the R51 properly tells you that the design is fundamentally flawed.
The R51’s user manual only mentions this critical step in a small sentence at the very end of the instruction, accompanied by a not entirely educational picture [above]. With every other gun on the market, if you re-assemble the gun incorrectly a quick function check will show you the error of your ways. An incorrectly re-assembled R51, however, will still pass a function check even with the slide stop installed incorrectly. There’s no way to test the R51 to ensure that it’s properly assembled (dry fire, function testing, or visual inspection) short of firing about 100 rounds through the gun. The first sign that something is wrong with the R51 will be when the gun suddenly stops working in the middle of a string.
So a new shooter could buy an R51 and shoot it without any problem (save a bit of palm pain). At some point, he or she will break down the R51 to clean it. They reassemble the gun incorrectly and holster it without realizing their mistake. In a self-defense scenario they now have less rounds available than they thought and a gun that stops working “for no reason.” Not good.
[I emailed Remington and suggested that they include a simple orange piece of paper in the box, tied to the gun, alerting people to this issue, instructing them on how to properly assemble the gun. They plan to release a YouTube video on the subject.]
Following the release of this review, Tim from the Military Arms Channel confirmed all of my results and more. According to him, even when the gun is absolutely 100% assembled correctly, it still fails to fire, fires out of battery, and fails to feed with alarming regularity. I know Tim, and his reviews are the only ones I trust outside of TTAG. So when he says there’s a problem, there’s a problem. These are not features you want in a concealed carry handgun.
Unfortunately, that sleek design seems to be indicative of the main issue with the R51. While the gun looks awesome, both the ease of use and range performance leave something to be desired. It almost feels like the gun is half finished, with just a couple of tweaks required to make it into a rocking awesome gun.
The R51 had enormous potential to be a really cool gun. I wanted it to be a really cool gun. And it still could be! But there are a couple very minor design changes that need to be made to get it to that point: an idiot-proof slide stop, followed by adding a tactile reset to the trigger. Finally, making the back of the gun a little more comfortable during recoil would round things out. But Remington doesn’t seem interested in making those changes.
Compared to the competition, the R51 doesn’t deliver. It’s roughly the same dimensions as a Glock 19, but harder to field strip and re-assemble properly and serves-up half as many rounds in the magazine. The SCCY CPX-2 is cheaper, smaller, more capacious (holds three more rounds) and easier to maintain. In fact, there isn’t a single reason to buy the Remington R51 over any of the other guns in the compact 9mm category (other than marketing) and at least one good reason to avoid it altogether.
As much as I’d like to mend fences with the Freedom Group, I call this gun an epic fail.
Specifications:
Caliber: 9mm Para, +P rated
Barrel Length: 3.4 inches
Overall Length: 6.6 inches
Width: 1 inch
Height: 4.6 inches
Weight: 22 Oz
Capacity: Ships with two 7-round magazines
MSRP: $420
Ratings (Out of Five Stars):
All ratings are relative compared to the other weapons in the gun’s category. Overall rating is not mathematically derived from the previous component ratings and encompasses all aspects of the firearm including those not discussed.
Accuracy: * * * *
For a sub-compact $420 handgun, it’s not bad at all.
Ergonomics: * * * * *
Holding the gun in my hand, it feels pretty great. It slides beautifully into a pocket or a holster, too.
Ergonomics Firing: *
It hurts your hand, and there’s no tactile trigger reset. I’m not alone — Robert agrees.
Ease of Maintenance: *
Honestly, I’d rather detail strip my 1911 than field strip this thing. It’s a pain in the butt to take apart and put back together. Worse, it’s very easy to get it wrong without realizing what you did.
Reliability: *
The gun doesn’t even run when you assemble it right.
Customization: *
There is exactly one holster available so far, but give it time. Given how hard Remington is marketing this thing there will be plenty of new stuff available soon. And hopefully two of those things will be a replacement trigger and slide stop.
Overall Rating: *
It’s a great concept, but there are serious design flaws that shouldn’t be acceptable in a modern firearm. For a gun that’s being marketed to new shooters and people with a freshly-printed concealed carry license, it’s way too easy to re-assemble the gun incorrectly — and even when put together right it still doesn’t work. Add on top of that the painful shooting experience and people won’t be likely to put much time into practicing with the gun. It has a lot of potential, and all it would take are a couple design changes to fix the issues.
I’m glad the grip safety is basically impossible to not engage, that was one concern I had.
I wonder how difficult it actually is to reassemble the slide stop properly once you know what to look out for and how to do it?
How is it roughly the same dimensions as a Glock 19? Based on the specs you give, the width and height are the same as the Shield, and the barrel length and overall length barely longer than the Shield’s.
Also, you don’t think the extremely easy to rack slide is a single reason to buy the R51 over the competition? I suspect (but don’t know for sure) that this might reduce the number of limp wrist malfunctions that plague the polymer framed pistols out there today.
It is EXTREMELY easy to re assemble wrong, and there’s no way to check if its right or not. Even Remington’s own reps cant do it right even with instruction.
Thanks for mentioning that. For me, that’s a deal breaker. My next gun won’t be an R51. Maybe a Glock 42 or 19 or 1911 or a 300 BLK upper. Something like that, anyways.
I grabbed the first R-51 to hit town, and I have a different set of concerns. First the mags are way too hard to reload for my wife. Second, I had to remove every last drop of packing grease, and put in Rem Oil, to get the slide to fully close. Third, I found an intermittent defect that’s way out there. But it went away on its own. The mag started to lock in without going all the way to battery. If the d#$%m thing was empty, the slide stop impinged on the follower and held it tight. But with live rounds in it, there was a good .040″ slop. The first round wouldn’t feed, but after assisting it, the rest would run for some reason. Somehow, the opposing mag release buttons can get out of alignment, and do this, intermittently.
I have half of a solution for the two herky mag springs ( 14 coils). I changed out one for an old WWII Walther P-38 spring with only 11 coils. The Rem spring doesn’t stack up so bad in the longer P-38’s mag. body. I ordered a Wolfe replacement spring for a P-38, but it too has 14 coils of about the same diameter wire as both the Waffen Issue and the Remington’s. The crazy part is that both of these springs have the same footprints top and bottom, so they will interchange perfectly. Part of the trouble is that the Rem R-51 has a strange angle in the mag’s lips. The cartridge is pointed upwards more than the P-38’s.
You showed American Eagle ammo, but I got a lot better results with some locally produced Estate ammo, by Howell Machines. The American Eagle stuff uses a cannelure below the bullet, whereas the Howell reloads have sheer case walls. I will look into having a finish 9mm Reamer run into my R-51’s chamber to bring it out to SAAMI specs. I surmised that Remington was a little too Owley about making a tight chamber for its hesitation blow back action. Remington has always tried to make the parabellum into a 38 ACP with its 125 gr. bullets. But I am happy to shoot classic P-08’s at 115 grains.
Some of the machining on my breech block is atrocious. Plus the firing pin’s retaining cross pin keeps working out. But from some forums, I learned that you simply do not send one back to Remington. I’ll have a G.S. here, tune it until it works. Its for my wife to keep in our Tin Teepee, to defend against anything coming into camp to devourer our two Shiht Tzu ankle biters.
The interlock which prevents racking the slide all the way, unless you depress the lemon squeezer, will have to go, eventually. But at hunting camp, I will have the slide racked back for her, to merely insert the magazines. The one with the old Waffen P-38’s mag spring, will be the the one in the batter’s box. The extra stiff factory R-51 mag will be the reserve. The laser is on hold, until I get this little beast tuned up or sold off.
If that’s what it did to your hand with standard ammo, who in their right mind is going to shoot +P through that thing? Disappointing to say the least.
Huh. All Remington had to do was not f*ck up, and this thing would’ve been golden. But they created a pistol with a fatal flaw, which they plan to remedy with, of all things, a youtube video. I would call that a pretty stellar f*ck-up.
Thanks for the review.
Nick: I traded my sccy in on a gen 4 glock 26. Nothing wrong, just wanted parts commonality.
This is precisely the very sort of article that first attracted me to TTAG and keeps me coming back: very thorough, honest, detailed reviews.
Great job, Nick.
My “go to” handgun now is my Walther PPQ M2. I use it as EDC in a holster that fits very snug OWB and I’m good to go.
“Could you please not text while in the theater?”
Is what one who is carrying should have said.
If the reply was “No.” then the next thing that should have been done if one was carrying a weapon would be to stand up, and walk out of the theater, find someone who works there, kindly inform them that someone was texting, and it was disrupting your experience, and that you’d like your money back, and then go home.
That is how this situation SHOULD have been solved.
When you’re carrying a gun, you are a mouse. You are meek. You are mild. You are agreeable. You are kind. You are polite. You are humble. You will gladly lose every argument you get into and walk away. You will walk away from anything that makes you the least bit upset with your tail between your legs. They are just words (or in this case, photons from a cellphone…) and not worth taking another life. If your life is not in danger, than suck it up, and walk away.
I hope that old retired cop dies in prison, alone and forgotten.
Off on a tangent here, but has anyone ever tried to make a locked breech semi auto pistol with the recoil guide rod above the barrel? Would that even be possible? It seems that would be a great way to lower the bore axis, making a compact powerful gun in 9 or 45 that much easier to control.
Has anyone seen the TV series “Under The Dome?” The protagonist (sort of) disarms five people this way in the first four or five episodes. What’s worse, bad guys SEE him doing this to others but for some reason still hold the gun inches from his face when it’s their turn to put the gun on him. Hilarious. And a little embarrassing – I like to think Maine people, and those from the small towns in particular, know how to hang onto their guns a little better than that. Ah, Hollyweird.
It’ll sell, and for three reasons.
1. It’s a Remington and there are simply a lot of Big Green fans out there.
2. The price – if the MSRP is $420, it could probably be bought for like $375 at the gun store.
3. It’s standard capacity magazine is small enough to comply with most ban states.
Sticking with the LC9 and G26 unless the prophesied single stack Glock 9mm springs forth from the loins of the G42.
Seems like the negatives were due to operator error and/or failure to RTFM.
Of course, READING the instructions then not FOLLOWING them is a problem as well.
A Freedom Group product under $500 which has serious function issues precluding use as a defensive arm?!
NO WAY.
Next you’ll tell me an M&P Shield will stomp all over this thing in a comparison .I HATE to say it folks…..but I told ya so.
Man, now you’ll NEVER get another fun from Remington.
Maybe you can do a useless, unrealistic, completely subjective torture test to win their favor back.
In a Milwaukee Wi shooting range no one would even notice, much less care about race etc The diversity in our sport/right is a good thing, Randy
no one from TCTAESCWTTADSTAI? (The Center to Arm Everyone So Criminals Will Think Twice About Doing Somthing That’s Already Illegal)
It’s easier to say GOA; (Gun Owners of America.) Or TTAG.
Wow, this gun is longer (with a shorter barrel), taller, thicker and heavier than my Kahr CW-9 which comes with 7-round mags and is accurate, simple to clean and easy to shoot even with +p ammo.
Of course the CW-9 lacks in the “Buck Rogers Department of Nostalgia”, so it has that going against it.
And this is why I hang up on the ABA every time they call asking why I am no longer a member. This presentation is a one-sided joke.
Why not just bill it as “The Philadelphia ABA Anti-Gun Symposium” and call it a day? Truth in advertising and all that.
Are they serving popcorn & candy, that always goes good at the circus, Randy …maybe o will make a guest appearance & stick his head in a lions mouth, I couldn’t get enough of that.
ABA Gun Violence Confab. Also known as the “echo chamber” conference.
Ha ha.. I like that the motto is ‘Defending Liberty, Pursuing Justice’
Now excuse us while we do the exact opposite.
Now release one in .380 and let’s act excited all over again! I don’t “get” the LC380, or the 9mm sized Glock that’s not 9mm. I don’t get this flawed pistol thingy either. I have a great 8+1 CCW weapon that carries well and functions perfectly: Bulgarian Makarov! Not enough rounds? CZ82!
Ha!
An honest review of a gun.
Love it.
Liberals will NEVER be happy with the definition of the Second Amendment until it is defined with words to their satisfaction, regardless of the true meaning…
Luckily Liberals can never agree on anything specific because one of them will be offended by it.
You sure this isn’t a meeting of the league of doom?
“I’m from the government, and I’m here to help you use your gun in a safe and responsible manner. With reasonable, common-sense restrictions.”
I will echo the sentiments above. Very decent, Honest review. If you are looking for warts and all reviews in any mainstream gun rag you can forget it. Write a shit review of the new R51? Poof! There goes thousands and thousands of potential ad revenue dollars. I’m sure the PR flacks at all the makers carefully nudge and cajole the gun mags into positing their products into the best light with all sorts of, errr, incentives and whatnot. Gun mags these days are only good for gun porn. Along with TTAG, Gun Tests magazine (which accepts no advertising) will give you a good honest review as well.
I won’t be buying one, but I got to admit that it’s kind of funny. I’ll bet they sell a ton of them. No one ever went broke in this country underestimating the taste or the intelligence of the American Public. Lot’s of guys want to look cool and make noise.
Reminds me of one of my favorite episodes of “The Simpsons”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpLd0WQKCY
Oooh! Speed cocker! I like the sound of that!
How is that firearm pictured not the poster child for the “Deepest Depths of Uselessness” ongoing series?
In comparison to the AR ‘pistol’ and the Beta on same, the muzzle brake looks downright reasonable.
red ick you louse. Both the muzzle device and the “pistols” that were being fired.
Anyone have a lead on a lower rail setup for the MP-5 A-5 SD
Hilarious!
I don’t know of any of my acquaintances who practice law who doesn’t have their CCW permit. This whole thing strikes me as weird.
Great video.
On another note, TTAG should review Prof. Nick Johnson’s new book, “Negroes and the Gun”, this being Black History Month and all.
I could see movie armories using these. They will look and sound pretty good on film.
I will keep my 1911.
As per your writeup, once you ass a pad to the R51 magazine so you can seat it dimensionally it would match the 1911 there. Of course the grip safety is bigger on the 1911, the grip safety that won’t rip the friggin hell out of your hand like the R52 did.
About the same overall size as a Glock 19, but with a half-inch shorter barrel and half the number of shots?
I’ll pass.
The John Hopkins guy is just another Bloomberg puppet.
Not sure whether to characterize this collection as an echo chamber or a downright circle jerk.
Too bad he used a drum magazine – what he really needed was a banana clip.
Because there’s no such thing as too much hearing loss.
How does it compare to the real star of the Shot Show, the Zip Gun. //ultra sarc//
I am unexcited about the R51. How it should replace my Kahr PM9 baffles me.
What a dud. It looks far too big for pocket carry and seems to have no real gains in accuracy, capacity, or shootability over similarly sized competition. At best it’s one more accurate and reliable subcompact 9mm that fits inside a waistband easily–but there are a ton of those. I’ll stick with my Glock 26 for that role.
Way to hassle a banana Beaumont, I’m telling Chiquita. What a bunch of loons, Randy
How to have any rifle range all to yourself in three easy steps:
1. Buy a Loudener
2. Rig it up to a Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine
3. Count how many people pack their sh!t and leave within firing your first ten rounds.
Never understood badmouthing the p250. I have a Pelican full of grip and barrels in 9mm, .40.and .45, FS down to SC. The badmouthing was a media thing that some folks thought was cool.
DAO is fine, if that is what you fire. If you swing down to SA, then it’s confusing. If you fire DA/SA, you will be hopelessly confused. DAO also is the safest with a round on the chamber. (If you have tho rank the slide, I’m sorry.)
The p290 is a fine pocket pistol, DAO.
I look forward to buying a complete p320 carry in .40 cal. It will be a fine piece of work.
A verbal authorization isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.
Oh, wait …
“No knock” warrant service violates a suspect’s right to counsel during all phases of “due process,” which starts with the service of a warrant. Why to the police carry the warrant with them? They know they’ve been issued a warrant. They carry it to prove to the suspect that they have a warrant. And the suspect has a right to examine the warrant before permitting the search or seizure. He also has a right to contact his attorney and to have the attorney review the warrant for obvious, fatal defects.
Innocent people have been killed during no-knock warrant service because the police went to the wrong address. A simple showing of the warrant to the people in the homes in these situations would have uncovered their mistakes before it was too late. This is why no-knock warrant service should be reserved for only the most dangerous entries, and not for everyday law-enforcement purposes as now seems to be the case more often than not.
After reading this review, My next gun purchase WANT BE a Remington R51 !!!
But would you vote for her? What you and her and difi do in the privacy of a motel 6 is nobodies business but yours.
Crap, I got caught answering a comment being deleted. Again.
She went outside and out that she had a shotgun and knew how to use it when they were of her property and up the block, she fired off a warning shot to remind them not to come back. The lady in Florida was given 20 years firing a warning shot when her abusive husband was threatening her.
Strange day today. First I heard on the radio about an explosion at a ball bearing plant somewhere (I thought that only happened on Hogan’s Heroes) and now a fire at an ammunition plant. Stay safe, boys.
Well if you want to live in Stupidville, that’s what you get!
I wonder how a newer shooter would feel about shooting this gun? I’d love to find a person new to shooting and ask them to shoot 3-4 popular 9mm pistols in this size range and see what they say about it.
I’m sure this thing will sell, I wouldn’t pick it but plenty of people will.
Anybody here have any experience with Wolf Gold Performance in their AR’s?
Got some new Tac Strike steel and 500 rounds of some steel garbo to shoot this weekend. Cant wait!!!!!!
THERE WILL BE WILD WEST BLOOD IN THE STREETS
With all the money that police departments are getting everywhere from the seized assets of illegal activities to the auctions they do of unclaimed or buyback property, in addition to the equipment and help they are getting from the federal government and the military, WHY are they not being trained how to handle these type of situations better? The dog did NOT attack him, but he feared for his life so he killed it. Why not get back in the car and call for back up unless the dog actually was attacking someone? The call was for dogs in the street, not dogs attacking.
He sounded a lot more apologetic than I expected.
Makes me proud to take up residence in Ohio 🙁
Waitaminute….I’m an Ohio resident AND a 2A supporter….I must be evil?
We have the The Truth about Guns and The Truth About Knives (throw in The Truth about Cars if you feel like it)… I think now we need the Truth about Dogs!
Ohio National Guard Communications Director James Sims II suggested Media Trackers was “inferring” from the ONG document’s contents as opposed to “what’s actually in the report.”
Just another balless wonder. The idiot is oblivious to the fact that Obama and crew have declared everyone who has ever served in the military domestic terrorist threats. The real purpose behind this is to tell people who actually believe in the Constitution that when the time is right they are coming after you, Like the purges Stalin had regularly. Lots of similarities between Obama and stalin so I wouldnt put it past him,
“similar to a luger”? I don’t… I can’t even… stick to reporting the news, dudes. The only fail is that they weren’t invited to try it out in Jan, and subsequently smeared a perfectly fine design out of spite… and that they can’t figure out how a gun goes back together. Maybe grow up a bit and the adults at remington will share their toys with you.
Any suggestions on what a displeased Ohioan such as myself can do about this situation (legally)? I suppose ultimately the Guard answers to the Governor, but is there any other action we can take? Blown out of proportion or not, this portrayal of our belief system is insidious and demeaning and should be called out for the prejudiced fear-mongering crap that it is.
Good review in general but I have to say, Nick has quite an obvious flinch. That is not the kind of shooting ability/trigger control I expect from a gun reviewer.
I also have a hard time believing that proper reassembly is THAT hard–yes, I’m willing to believe that for the “casual” shooter this doesn’t sound good, but those of us who shoot guns as a hobby should be able to deal with this quirk (and I bet Remington fixes it).
I think the one star here is a little harsh–Nick is saying that in terms of handungs, it can’t get any worse than this…and I find that VERY hard to believe
Good advice from calguns… and the best way to set up a case.
Question: If the cop haters who infest this site keep snarling, yapping and baring their teeth (like the dogs in the video) should we…..
a) spray
b) tase
c) shoot
d) all of the above
…..them as well?
Damn, I am amazed at how many people would rather get bit, than protect themselves. Jeez…………., and here I thought Obama and his cronies were paranoid narcissistic moron’s for thinking the American people are a threat to authorities………..but guess not. A freekin’ animals life has more value than a human to most of these writers. I am the first one on the “hold authorities to a higher standard” bandwagon and my FB pages shows that. But maybe there is something to making the gun buying process a bit tougher, if this is what the 2A movement is producing these days.
Davenport Iowa getting some positive press? What bizzaro world did I enter? We are a shall issue state and are working hard to overturn the ban on suppressors. Any Iowans here need to contact their state representatives and voice their opinion.
You can definitely see your expertise within the article you
write. The arena hopes for even more passionate writers like you who aren’t afraid
to mention how they believe. All the time follow your heart.
2014 Update: Bought a Lionheart LH9 and I’m far from disappointed… very impressed with both the gun and the customer service from the company. Great pistol!
Too bad for all the Caracal fans.
At this point with all the stuff that has happened, I wonder if they wouldn’t be better off taking the HS2000 route and rebranding their gun with the help of an American company.
The capacity issue is easily resolved by getting a double stack version, such as from Para. As someone who carries 6+1 in my Beretta Nano, 7+1 in a 1911 isn’t a step back.
Eh. I’ll stick to my CZs for my alloy frame needs. Tried the 1911 and it just didnt do anything my CZ 97B couldnt do as good or better.
Does your state have the castle doctrine? Yes? Then if someone is in your home or breaks in and you feel threatened as they come TOWARDS you, SHOOT the bastard. Period. Even if your state doesn’t have a castle doctrine you’d be an idiot NOT to do something to stop the threat IMHO.
People always say “Call the cops”. Sure IF you can get to a phone/cellphone or have TIME to get to one. Then you can play 50 questions with the damn 911 operator as the scumbag makes his way to you! Then, you can wait many minutes for the cops to GET there!
Good luck with that.
That pistol looks like it would really be uncomfortable to conceal carry.
; )
I’m still not that outraged at Ice T. He’s mostly on the right team, he’ll come around.
What happens when there is midget men hired? Hey, if you don’t meet the physical requirements then don’t get on the job. I think there were two failures here. One failure was the inadequate hiring practices to weed-out out of spec applicants. The other failure was applicants who got in the door and then complained about the standard issue items that come with the job, thus they should have quit and did something else. We are confusing person shooting and work issue tools. If you can’t swing the hammer the company buys for you, then maybe you aren’t able to work there. You can whittle your own hammer handle at home and make your own furniture but don’t complain when you can’t hack it at work. The firearms were selected to handle the majority, not all people, so there is always someone who won’t be able to hack it. There are height requirements, eyesight requirements, and PT requirements for service, why not handsize.
Finally! The crew served ‘Retail Assault Kart’ is available for testing.
Specs and Features:
Four Wheel
Weight: 21 LBS
Armor: Wire Mesh
Bi-ped Powered
Capacity: 1 Gunner
Speed: Maximum 7 KPH
Range: 5 Miles on Road/Mall
45 Feet off Road/Mall
Have a buddy that has one. Not a bad gun, but I don’t know why I would not buy a Glock 17 instead???
Not a fan of safeties on a striker fire pistol. The height over bore looks taller than the Glock…a reason I am not a XD fan. Its UGLY as hell as well. As far as Gen 4 9mm block feeling bulky…..you have girly hands.
I can’t imagine trying to shop for sights, holsters, after market parts to make the trigger smoother etc. All of that would either be hard to find or cost more than a Glock.
I don’t care if he goes quietly, or screaming, ranting and raving, as long as he goes…he was never significant by any means, he’s just a major PITA…
Mine will be shipped to my ffl soon, any recommendations on ammo for this one? Any manufacture not wanting to feed well, vice versa? Thanks yall!
Well said Pastor McCain! You should say more.
My springer .177 is a full size rifle and a bear to cock. My grand daughters would be at home with this youth model. By the time my grand sons get big enough I can spray paint away the pink.
And what bontai joe said.
.so, if I am carrying a subcompact at 5 oclock in a leather IWB under a shirt and a coat and walking along at a brisk pace this machine is going to alert. Believe it when I see it. That gun he used as an example was enormous.
Ah, now I get it. It is for the children.
Glad to see 22Plinkster getting some more love in the digests. He might not be in the same league as the Miculek Systems Model 101, but he’s got some serious skills. One thing I like about his videos is that most of the time, he’s not shooting super-fancy guns or exploding targets and crap. Just a dude messing around with a .22, doing some very impressive shooting. It’s mostly stuff you can try yourself, and really appreciate how good the guy is.
PS thanks agin Robt for the article from the Sgt. To him and other real LEOs willing to share their experiences and advice here: RESPECT and deep appreciation for your service. My experience with street cops and Sheriff Deputies is the majority are pro armed citizens for 2A self defense. And thats in So Cal.
As always my $ .02 and YMMV.
I actually have always been interested in this shotgun, but have not purchased one because the price seems ridiculously high, and because of the numerous negative reviews I’ve read about it.
But….I’ll definitely take one for free!
Cue Paul T. McCain whining about the whiners 😛
Piss on them. Time to man up. Don’t tell me or anyone you are “terrified” or “i hope it doesn’t come to violence” (To the sound of someone deficating and peeing there panties) MAN UP! They DID NOT listen at all when everyone told them NOT TO DO THIS. Right? So the talk and “nice” BS s over. Now it is “Slave or Free, which will it be” time. Organize,arm,equip and train as a militia/team for mutual support.YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Set up a 5/10 progam in your AO. Logistics. More is better. Look at your enemy as nothing but a Black Uniformed Mobile Resupply Pod. Take their gear and weapon from their WARM DEAD HANDS. They are practicing to kill you RIGHT NOW. Look up “No Hesitation” targets and you figure it out. The filth are doing this in “The Constitution State” for a reason. Think. Liberty 1775.
Ok, I have been buying ammo for about 25 years in bulk. My father has always told me that someday ammo will be a valuable as gold. I’m now 47 years old and my father has passed but his words may be very prophetic…time will tell but I’m still stacking.
30-06 AP and Ball 10,000+
308 Radway and Winchester 5,500
223 M855, ball, green tip 8,000+
8mm 6,000+
7.62×39 9,000+ (3,000 AP)
30 Carbine 5,000
12 ga 00 buck 1,000
9mm 7,000+
45cal 4,000+
380cal 3,500
22 cal 15,000
357 1,500
44mag 2,000
To some that may seem like a lot but I got about 190 guns to feed and the one thing you can never have enough of is ammo….happy stacking to everyone!
Depends on the situation. Was the perpetrator actually shooting at people or just waving his weapon around?
I don’t understand why they left the cocking serrations intact. They unnecessarily break up the medieval motif, and look like they would provide less friction than grabbing any other part of the slide.
This bill appears to be headed for a vote this week (as of 18March):
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=51209
Someone needs to photo shop them into bright red British “Lobsterback” jackets.
A shooter who has surrendered is no longer an active shooter. No, I would not shoot, but I also would not lower my guard or my weapon. Not until relieved by LEO. Who, hopefully, would recognize the situation.
The bell cannot be unrung, and the ATF now has the customer list…. No matter how many lawsuits are filed, those people are now outed and will be subject to ATF hate raids…
“Can you be charged with brandishing a tattoo?” The anti’s are idiots and desperate, I wouldnt put it past em.
Grandma is a blithering idiot. Want to put up silly signs? Fine, buy or build a house on a piece of land you own outside of a subdivision. It truly is astounding to me how many people don’t understand the concept of subdivisions in this country. They come for the swim / tennis / adultery and then are shocked, shocked to hear they cannot do whatever they want. I bet Grandma did not read the convenants and she deserves every bit of hell she gets from the subdivision. As far as the content of the sign itself, all it does it lets a thief know there is a Gun there to steal, especially after he cases the house for a while and sees an old lady living there all by herself.
Suicides make mental health a healthcare issue. Rope and electrical cords aren’t healthcare issues.
“Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they was pushed out of windows?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzFWRPiNXOI
I am a supporter of safe storage of firearms (either on you or in safe), but I have mixed thoughts on the need for laws to make that happen.
Look out Innovator, now you,re going to get raided by the ATF the same as Ares Armor did because you dared to take them ( ATF ) to task in court and received a summary ruling against their practices. Wipe your computers, guys……..
Hmmm
He was arrested for thought crimes. He clearly did not think the way the fascists want him to think. He had to be arrested before all that individualism caught on.
I checked out a specimen at the local Gander Mountain. When you rack the slide it is obvious there is more going on than with a Browning action with the various parts camming into and out of position but this example was not gritty at all. The machining seemed OK but not great and the rear sight was dovetailed solidly. Seems there are a number of guns out there with rough and tight chambers and this is probably contributing to the issues some are having. Magazines sometimes also seem to be an issue.
This gun doesn’t require a redesign. It requires attention to detail from the manufacturer.
It is starting to appear that Remington is loosing the ability to build quality firearms.
Slingworks, I can agree to some extent: I think that Rem got caught up in the need to show at Shot Show, since other brands were showing (and allowing shooting) there, and Rem blew it both ways. My situation continues, as it took 4 weeks for them to respond with return number, and now I’m already over 2 weeks waiting for some word on whether my gun is fixable or will be replaced, or what. Whatever jammed the slide is more likely a QC issue (any gun can slip through), and for the 9 shots I got, it was a sweet gun. Not sure about “grittiness”, though the ramps in the slide are noticeable. Recently, an S&W M&P 9 has clear grittiness in the first half of trigger pull, but nothing harmful that I could see. Easily fixed with a duty trigger kit. But the R51, which I now think of as mine being the “lemon” in the bunch, issue is real. I’m glad many others got the good ones, but I remain unable to use mine while Rem sits on it, so I can’t be enthusiastic about such a gun. Several folks here don’t like their rifles either, but like their shotguns. Chevy and Ford (et al.) have their pros and cons too. My point continues to be that the problem was real for me, and is inappropriately continuing from what is supposed to be one of the premier firearms manufacturers in the U.S. (and the world?). So your point appears to have some validity.
The R51 is nothing like the Model 51 in terms of design or function. The original Model 51 Remington UMC, as well as the Browning Patent Depose were wonders of their time. Extremely accurate, dependable, and used by such folks as George Patton. It was made of steel, not aluminum or the modern plastic composites that permeate the market today, and when you ran out of ammo, you could beat somebody to death with it in much the same manner as with the 1911A1 without worrying about it breaking into little pieces. They were NOT called “point and shoot” pistols for nothing. I have both the Browning Patent and the Remington UMC, and I would challenge any of the Glock people to see who can get what out of their pocket and in operation faster. I can also cover a quarter at 3 yards when shooting for accuracy. What Remington should have done is resurrect the M51 as originally designed in the .380 or .32 acp. Sometimes newer is NOT better! Enough said.
I am a ffl holder and have 2 of these brand new never fired outside of the factory break in the store.The third just came in today and hope it has had its wrinkles ironed out because I’m not sure how patient the customer will continue to be.
Don’t know if it’s helpful, but I keep reading about the folks whose guns shoot just fine. It took nearly 4 weeks for Remington to send me an RMA after my slide jammed (9 shots and “what the….”). I’m into my 3rd week without the gun (now a total of 7 weeks can’t shoot it). Sent an email followup 3 days ago asking for any status, got a THIRD repair ticket number, and they said they didn’t know, had no idea when it would be returned. So as far as Remington guns in the future, I will never have another. If QC is the problem, or I just got (un)lucky with my lemon, I hope they get their act together. It was a very nice gun for 9 rounds, but their customer service sucks too.
I picked up an R51 today.
When I got home I swabbed the barrel and grabbed a box of American Eagle 119gr. FMJ. I took her out back to the sand pile and started firing for function.
On the second slide release it stopped about 1/16″ short of battery. A slight nudge with my thumb seated the slide.
No other issues for 8 full mags. Just felt better each mag.
I really like the grip and experienced no slide or grip safety “bite” what-so-ever.
I am very pleased. I will wring it out this weekend with my favorite carry loads.
Glad yours did well. Mine is now 7weeks unusable, the last 3+ at Remington (took nearly 4 weeks to get an RMA), and all they can say is that they don’t know what its status is since then. Frustrating, since two other guns with issues (other brands) were repaired quickly and with updates. I guess I got the “lemon” in the bunch, but am not at all impressed with Remington’s customer service to date. Enjoy yours: when mine shot at all, it was accurate and felt good.
Took longer than I thought to get this out to the range and evaluate. In my first 75 rounds it had a few minor issues, but nothing along the lines of those mentioned by many who have written before me. I was shooing 115g FMJ Blazer Brass and also ran 14 rounds of Hornady Critical Defense. This past weekend, without any further cleaning, I ran through 42 rounds of Blazer Steel 115 FMJ. I was outdoors this time, and I was very impressed with the accuracy and speed with which I could shoot this. It is a wonderful piece of machinery, that transfers very little recoil at all. The only thing I would like to see, are grip panels that have a little convex curve, to fill the hand a little more, if they were rubber, it would be even better. Hogue grips are on many of my handguns, both revolver and semi-auto. Some for recoil taming, but mostly because I just like the way they feel, like the tackiness. Only had one minor issue this time, out of 42 rounds. Based on other highly acclaimed brands I have owned, this is no worse than most of them were when knew. I will follow up later, after I’ve gone through another couple hundred rounds. PS – of the box, this is more accurate and easier to fire rapidly accurately than the Sig P938; of course it is somewhat larger with a longer sight line. Might have to look into a Remington 1911 after shooting this.
Admittedly, I have not read all 274+ responses to this article, so some of what follows may be redundant; however, as a longtime aficionado of the *one* the *only* the *original* Remington PA51, I’d like to contribute a few observations. To begin, Pedersen’s Remington 51 absolutely defines “ergonomic”: its perfectly shaped grip (with its fail-safe grip safety, which doubles as a cocking indicator and slide release), its low-line barrel mounting, and its ultra-slim profile make it easy and safe to carry and instinctive to shoot. Its only shortcomings result directly from its redundant safety features and concealability: first, the delayed-blowback design and internal hammer require some effort to rack back the slide, cocking the hammer and chambering the first round; the shallow, “U”-shaped grooves at the rear of the slide don’t offer much help in this procedure. Second, the sights are virtually nonexistent: there’s no large front ramp to snag on a holster in drawing the pistol, but then there’s no quick way to acquire a “fine” sight picture; fortunately, the PA51 points so instinctively that the sights are irrelevant in any event. At any reasonable defensive distance, I can put five shots in a quarter-sized cluster in rapid fire.
Which leads me to the Remington designers’ major malpaso in creating the R51: the caliber. Sure, in some ways, bigger is better; however, the original PA51 is chambered for the .380 ACP, which with modern, high-performance ammunition can come close to approximating 9 mm Parabellum ballistics. And the .380 is less punishing and easier to hit with than the 9 mm in a sub-compact pistol — hence the popularity of .380 semi-automatic pistols.
For anyone who has never fired a Remington PA51, I highly recommend it: it’s my favorite carry piece, and it shoots as sharp as it looks.
Tried it, I really wanted it to do well. But after shooting it, I settled on the Ruger SR9c. Much more comfortable, easier to shoot with no failure to feeds or jams. I hope they get it cleaned up, I really do.
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Sad that a few rockheads try to put ads on fora not intended for them. (negative comment of the month).
I have been contacted by Remington, and am still awaiting the promised refund for my R51. Tried a friend’s R51 that works except for occasional feeding problems that no one seems to be able to determine the cause of. I still like the gun, but my slide jam after 9 rounds was a deal killer, and Rem’s slow response and failure to promptly apply its warranty made the R51 a mistake. I, too, hope they can “fix” whatever’s wrong with it, and also wondered if going 9mm, rather than the original .380, might have been a mistake. Still, when it shot, I liked it. Hopefully the refund will appear soon (as promised a week ago), and perhaps they’ll come out with an improved version down the road and rescue their reputation.
With havin so much content do you ever run into any problems of plagorism or
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Had the R51 out again, this time I experienced the reassembly issue. And yes, it was my problem, not the guns. I pulled out the slide stop, reinserted properly and proceeded to fire off 98 more rounds without a hitch. This time I ran some 124gr Geco FMJ, Blazer Brass 115gr FMJ and Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty. For myself, this firearm is very easy to fire accurately repeatedly. I’ll return with an update after I run a few hundred more rounds through it; that could be a month or two.
It’s been a few days since anyone’s commented here, but I thought I’d point out that the R51 is apparently not listed on the Remington website. That alone says a lot of things, few of them good. For my part I think that the R51 is an potentially interesting handgun, but its design and production shortcomings relegate it to strictly an object of curiosity, and right now, as competitive as the CCW pistol market is, that won’t make Remington any money.
It is very much a shame that Freedom Group has destroyed Remington as well as every other brand under its corporate umbrella, but it didn’t have to be that way.
Tom
I know that I’ll deal with mine on this end. It won’t go back to Carolina for anything. I am sure I won’t get it back, only a check. BTW, a major ammo maker said on his company dime, that ol’ Sorros is the moneyman behind Cerebrus, aka Remington, so don’t believe the disinfo. They may have it all worked out to milk the firearms industry dry, destroy these Companies’ reputations, and then run off, with as much loot as possible.
If we could tag them with this kind of a conspiracy, it would open the door for the S.E.C. to ban the whole bunch from the Securites Industry. But this wouldn’t work unless the Republicans win both houses of Congress in the Fall. And the Tea Party would have to be able to put the screws to their Old Guard elitists, even then.
This is ridiculous! The September issue of Guns has a cover story on the R51! The guns seem to have quietly been pulled from the market (try to find one on gun broker), it has been more than 100 days since the first guns started going back and no fix or even update from Remington. At this point the issues with the R51 are well known. I find it completely irresponsible for gun mags to continue to provide positive reviews based on “eval guns” when the production version has so many issues.
http://www.hhshootingsports.com/WireShots/archives/8691
Great review. Saw the new ad and was all over the idea of pursuing one for myself. Now this reminds me of the time I saw the ad for the new Remington NitroMag shotgun. Boy, was I sorry about that purchase. Cheap feeling plastic and the first trip to the trap it jammed shut. The concerns you reveal don’t surprise me. Nice thorough write up.
The September 2014 issue of GUNS magazine has the R51 has the R51 on the cover. The article gives it a very positive review with no real mention of the reassembly issue. I’ve sent an email to the editor referencing this article. I’m betting I won’t hear back. It’s also interesting to mote the only way you’ll find any information about the R51 on the remington.com website is to look at their 2014 online catalog.
Remington announced a recall due to complaints. They will replace, and include two mor mags and a pelican case. Sounds like an effort to me.
As found on Guns America:
BREAKING: REMINGTON MAKES BIG ANNOUNCEMENT ON R51
Since its rollout at the outset of the year, many have argued that the Remington R51 was a lemon.
However, it wasn’t until today that Remington publicly addressed the issues and concerns that many purchasers were reportedly having with the pistol.
Here is what Remington had to say, according to Guns & Ammo:
“Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.
However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington’s performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.
Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.
The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.
We appreciate your patience and support.”
Going just by the barrel length, this handgun is not legal in Canada.
Going by all of the complaints and issues with the R51, this may be a good thing.
If Remington fixes all of the problems and complaints with their handgun, I may
end up being more sorry that it isn’t legal for Canada.
R51 piece of shit!!!!!!!!!!!!! I returned it over a year ago and every time i call i get the whitehouse press spokeman who doesn’t know shit but i know i will not buy remington trash any more.
I bought a Glock 42 for my wife, she can’t handle a 9mm but did really well at the range with the 380. Reliability is paramount in a sd pistol as is accuracy, Glock gives you both, there’s a reason they are so popular.
LOL! Nick was right all along! And here Remington wants to foist the New 51-or is that the new-new R51-on a gullible public. It’s July 23,2016 and still they are talking about this ugly huge POS. Man this endless thread reminds me why I look at TTAG reviews before anyone else…