When we last left the ongoing saga of claims that the P320 pistol is somehow unsafe, a small police department in Connecticut had made public a video of an officer’s duty gun discharging while he was involved in a tussle with a suspect. If you haven’t seen it, here it is . . .
Officer’s gun randomly goes off during arrest in Montville, CT.
It was a Sig and the chief has already ordered 35 new Glocks for the department.
What do you think caused that?
(No sound on the video) pic.twitter.com/ouql74tq3a— Donut Operator 🍩 (@DonutOperator) July 28, 2023
As SIG said at the time, the Montville Police Department refused to allow them to inspect the pistol, the holster, or any of the rest of the gear the officer was carrying at the time. Instead, they sent the P320 in question to their own forensic lab for examination and the chief announced publicly that he’d be spending $20,000 to switch to GLOCKs.
It’s strange, then, that we’ve heard nothing more from the Montville PD or their chief about what the forensic lab found. It seems a safe bet that if they’d somehow determined that it was possible for the P320 in the video to fire on its own, we’d have heard about it.
And if that had happened, it would have been the first time anyone has ever been able to demonstrate a P320 discharging without a trigger pull. Not that a lot of people haven’t tried.
Again, it’s difficult to tell definitively from that low res security video, but it appears that the cop in question was using a Safariland holster designed for light-bearing pistols. SIG SAUER claims from their examination of the video, the pistol wasn’t fully seated and the retention hood wasn’t closed. That’s hard to tell from our view, but OK.
What’s at least as likely a cause is the fact that, as others have demonstrated, given the naturally larger opening in light-bearing holsters, there’s significantly more room for keys, jacket cinch cords, or whatever to get in there. No matter what kind of pistol you’re carrying. See, for example, this . . .
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That’s no doubt why SIG issued a press release earlier this month cautioning those who carry their P320 in light-bearing holsters.
None of this kind of information, however, tends to seep down into the danker bowels of the internet where there are plenty of people who claim their best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with a girl who saw a P320 just go off at 31 Flavors last night.
As we’ve stated in the past (see here, here, and here), there have been many attempts to claim in court that the P320 — we’re talking about the post-upgrade guns — is somehow prone to “un-commanded discharges.” We looked at the the circumstances surrounding a lot of those claims and found them questionable at best. Most of the cases looked to us to be the result of cops who’d had negligent discharges and were trying to avoid the embarrassment, being fired, or both.
Now, more than two years since our first post on the topic was published, more of these cases have had their days in court and have been resolved. Let’s see how that turned out . . .
Frankenberry v. SIG SAUER: An unholstered P320 carried in appendix position allegedly discharged without trigger pull while the owner pulled up his pants in the bathroom at a Chick-fil-A. RESULT: Summary judgement for SIG SAUER
Herman v. SIG SAUER: Plaintiff claims a P320 discharged without a trigger pull while drawing from appendix carry. RESULT: Summary judgement in favor of SIG SAUER
Schneider v. SIG SAUER: A P320 was being handed by the plaintiff to his wife when it allegedly “went off,” killing her. RESULT: Dismissed with prejudice by the plaintiff who was found criminally liable
Guay v. SIG SAUER: Plaintiff’s P320 allegedly discharged while holstered while he was removing it from his belt. RESULT: Unanimous jury verdict in favor of SIG
Mayes v. SIG SAUER: Plaintiff claims his P320 fired without drawing it from his holster while shooting at his farm. RESULT: Summary judgement in favor of SIG SAUER
Hilton v. SIG SAUER: This was the case that was highlighted by ABC News and prompted our first post on the P320 lawsuits here. The plaintiff claims she was carrying her P320 in a holster, in her purse when it discharged. RESULT: Summary judgement in favor of SIG SAUER
Collette v. SIG SAUER: Plaintiff claims his P320 discharged while being carried in a gym bag while “wrapped carefully in a cloth,” either a towel or t-shirt. RESULT: Dismissed with prejudice by plaintiff
Jinn v. SIG SAUER: Plaintiff claims his holstered P320 discharged while “his hand [was] on the weapon’s grip while holstered to begin the draw process” during Homeland Security tactical shooting qualifications. RESULT: Summary judgement in favor of SIG SAUER
These are all of the resolved cases that we have been able to find. You’ll notice a pattern here. First, no one has won a judgement yet. The company confirms that no one has ever won a judgement against them regarding the P320. The only case that has gone all the way to trial resulted in a unanimous jury verdict for the company.
You’ll also notice that most of these cases have been dismissed, either withdrawn by the plaintiff or on summary judgement. The reason for that is the same in virtually every case. The plaintiffs’ expert witnesses were determined by the judges to be either unreliable or their testimony inadmissible. And without expert witnesses who can show the P320 can discharge “un-commanded,” the plaintiffs didn’t have a case. In other words, there was no there there.
When it comes down to it, this is what has reinforced our opinion that the wave of lawsuits that have been filed are ultimately baseless. Like the Montville Police Department (we presume) no one has ever been able to show that a P320 will fire without the trigger being pulled.
There’s potentially a lot of money to be made by the tort bar if that’s ever proven (just ask the former, now bankrupt version of Remington). Plaintiffs’ lawyers have no doubt paid a lot of money to a lot of “experts” who have spent a lot of time trying to make that happen.
So far, however, no one has been able to do it. The only reasonable conclusion then is that’s because the P320 won’t fire without the trigger being pulled by someone or by some thing. Unless and until someone can demonstrate that, as one expert who appeared in that ABC News report years ago described it, all of this is nothing but “legal momentum.”
“Frankenberry v. SIG SAUER:” Case dismissed when plaintiff’s star witness, fellow cereal magnate C. Chocula, recanted his testimony.
That shifty lawyer McMummy is keeping it under wraps.
To his credit, co-defendant Boo Berry has shown full transparency.
Probably going to give General Mills a job as some product developer after they get their next contract. (Couldn’t come up with a good one for Fruit Brute)
That darn MIC taking care of its own again!
re- counted.
Touche’
That’s all well and good, but even if the defendant, Sig, was able to recover costs and attorney fees, one never recovers all the costs involved in such cases. Executive time is spent in consultation with attorneys; employee time is spent in searching company records; there is a whole panoply of extraneous costs associated with litigation that are never recovered. The modus operandi here is to bite into Sig’s profit picture with numerous spurious lawsuits in the hopes that it will affect sales — and I guarantee it will affect sales. I am sure there are at least several hundred Danny Dimwits who have by-passed Sig 320s in favor of “safer” Glocks. I don’t recall clearly, but I believe there were several on this list who swore they would never buy a 320.
I will not be buying any Sig Sauer products. I’m happy with my Hi Point 45 JHP. Is it the best gun??? No. And no recalls, either. And they have not killed their owners like Remington and taurus have in the past.
You wanna complain about the ghostly “military-industrial complex???”
Well, Sig Sauer is part of it.
“And they have not killed their owners …”
This is a stupid as anti-gunners claiming that “AR-15s kill people.”
For those who are DIYers and are not gun ignorant beavis and buttheads…It’s a given triggers can snag on the darnest little things and an AD results. It’s a given an engaged external safety prevents this. And it is a given a commercially made Trigger Plug can prevent this. And it is a given a trigger plug made from the base portion of a tire valve stem using a bolt to hold for bench grinder shaping can do the same.
Ok who hacked Debbie’s screen name
A trigger has to be pressed rearwards for it to fire the gun.
Sticking something in the trigger guard that doesn’t belong there is even more stupid than saying that guns kill people.
The proper term is “negligent discharge” as the operator is responsible. You don’t have to be a gun builder to grok that.
darndest
RE: nobrains “The proper term is “negligent discharge” as the operator is responsible. You don’t have to be a gun builder to grok that”
A negligent discharge is when a moron like yourself pulls the trigger when they should not have. An AD is an Accidental Discharge which occurs when the firearm is in motion, etc. I.E. Snags the button fold on jeans, etc. Or the firearm is stationary and an object in motion pulls the trigger. I.E. A range bag dropped on a firearm, etc.
You do have to be smarter than a box of rocks and know when to stfu to prevent firearm, “What Ifs.”
Every incident that you described is a “negligent discharge” and every one is the responsibility of the gun handler.
99% of the times that someone refers to an “accidental discharge,” it’s actually a “negligent discharge.” Snagging the trigger on a button can’t happen during a draw; because of how a trigger operates, it can happen during reholstering. Guess whose fault that is? It’s your fault, moron. That makes you as dumb as a bag of hammers.
Very few discharges are “accidental.” One instance might be that a gun fires when releasing the slide lock on a semi-auto and the firing pin strikes the primer due to forward inertia. A pistol in proper working order can’t do this.
“Sticking something in the trigger guard that doesn’t belong there is even more stupid than saying that guns kill people.”
Even worse is a moron who jams something behind a trigger, thinking (actually, *not* thinking!) that it’s a ‘safety’ device… 🙁
I think it just reinforces my post.
Nobody wants to admit they caused a negligent discharge. In many cases it means big trouble. I think it all stems from the fact that the military did find a problem during testing. Sig fixed it and the gun passed military testing. The external safety versions (M17 + M18) have value in my opinion (as the use of the external safety helps prevent these screw ups). Also note that the US Military demanded a external safety from all the participants at the beginning of the program (even Glock added a external safety on their entry).
I went to see how many lawsuits Glock had in the 80’s and 90’s for comparison and discovered they’re still being sued to this day for being “unsafe” and just going off willy nilly.
So tiresome.
There are many videos on YouTube of Glocks going off during holstering. I mean the video above shows you how this can happen.
But they’re not “going off by themselves.”
I migrated away from the p320 in favor of a walther pdp. Not bagging sig, I have 2 p229s, 365, and m400 AR.
Guns are designed to fire when trigger is pressed, (regardless of what it is pressed by) A gun that does not fire when the trigger is pressed is a very expensive brick and is likely to get it’s owner killed. While I have the utmost respect for our LEO’s there are a few clowns that should never be allowed anywhere near a firearm.
Do you ever think a LEO will admit to doing anything stupid, careless, or dangerous?
They don’t have to admit to it for it to fact. States, cities, counties, and towns hire LEO’s hoping they are good, honest and just. Sometimes they are not, that’s when the poor taxpayer takes it on the chin for millions of dollars.
Yup, it happens Like I said… clowns. We all know one or two … or a dozen.
It’s been known to happen, but it’s the exception that proves the rule.
Yes, when pigs sing opera.
I worked at a range when the military started shipping out the M18 version of the P320. On the range I witnessed an alarming amount of new P320s new out of the box have the strangest of issues I didn’t know which could ever occur. In one week there was a P320 which was NOT short cycling but on the second round the trigger was always dead. Another the last round in the mag always jammed regardless of the mag used, and another which had a chamber stuck casing so bad it took full body weight and a steel table to dislodge the round. That was just one week of P320 issues! The DoD can attest to P320 issues as it failed the DoD trials! The pistol should be discontinued.
CC, don’t trust your own eyes, trust Sig’s propaganda operation, of which this publication is a key part.
Maybe it’s the ammunition rather than the pistol?
I had a house fire awhile back, and a lot of my ammunition turned out to be dangerously unpredictable; it just went off without being asked.
Do y’all think I have a case…?
It looks like the cop that swept the bad guy’s feet up was the one who’s sidearm fired…the guy’s feet came pretty close/touched the holster…am I seeing it right? And if so, that could have contributed…?
That was my though. Guy kicks the gun and happens to strike the trigger while kicking said gun. It goes off when the trigger is struck. Whodda thunk?
I love all my SIGs, including my P320s. I carry a SIG daily.
That said, this article is carrying water for the brand. TTAG gets special treatment from Exeter, and write-ups like this are why. Imagine making a career out of writing puff pieces.
“Collette v. SIG SAUER: Plaintiff claims his P320 discharged while being carried in a gym bag while “wrapped carefully in a cloth,” either a towel or t-shirt. RESULT: Dismissed with prejudice by plaintiff”
“wrapped carefully in a cloth,” either a towel or t-shirt.”
Off. Walter Collette also purports himself to be an expert on use of force and active shooter trainer. You can decide upon his expertise.
If there is a design or manufacturing defect, it would have to be one not easily found. I would want to send it to an independent lab before it went to sig, too, given the way they never even issued a real recall for their non-drop safe pistols.
In any case, I wouldn’t be carrying a p320 without a safety in an appendix holster, light bearing or not. Maybe it is human error; but to err is human, which is why guns don’t have 1lb triggers. There might be something about the design which works properly but still results in a ND more so than competitors.
I’ll stick to the 220 series.
Did Cohen sign the check himself for this bullshit fluff piece 😂 ? Now write one about how good the NH made 550 series rifles were (especially the 556R) and how everyone was just telling lies about the flaws and qc issues. because clearly Sig NH would not somehow fail multiple attempts at making a rifle that real Sig had made for decades in Switzerland for the Swiss military.
If you actually take the time to ready various public court filings over the last several years, it is clear that P320 failed internal drop tests in 2013 and 2014 and Sig STILL put into the marketplace and put LEO and civilians at deadly risk. And perjured itself in a federal court on this very issue.
The ultimate safety on any firearm is the shooter holding it. The P-320 is as safe ONLY as the person holding it. The Connecticut situation was caused by the Sergeant banging into the firearm when the officer did not properly secure it in his holster.
That’s funny
What is truly “funny” is your inability to comprehend what I wrote. Do you even own a P320? Or are you just “thinking”?
As one writer from the now defunct “Gun Week” magazine once wrote: Some day a “gun savvy” lawyer will take Glock or another copycat maker to the cleaners in regards to pre-loaded striker fired pistols that do not have manual safeties.
Anyone with brain one and who is half ways mechanically inclined would realize that a pre-loaded striker fired gun with no manual safety is exactly like carrying a revolver with the hammer cocked back. The only difference is you can see the danger of carrying a revolver this way because it has a visible hammer. You cannot see the danger with a pre-loaded striker fired pistol that has no manual safety.
“What people cannot see they do not fear”—Dacian 2023 ( 1 million Covid 19 deaths prove my statement as well as hundreds of needless deaths and cripplings by pre-loaded striker fired pistols with no manual safety)
“Anyone with brain one…”
That disqualifies you right there.
dacian, the DUNDERHEAD, well we are certain, that you are NOT “mechanically inclined.” IT seems your inclination is to magnify any propaganda which spreads your anti-gun message. For your repeated edification, “A safety is a mechanical device prone to failure.” A man far smarter than either of us (for sure you), once said, “the gun safety is a state of mind, not a device on a gun”.
You are right about one thing, people do fear what they know little about. As far as firearms are concerned, I doubt you know which end the bullet comes out. You still haven’t “enlightened” us with the firing sequence of a cartridge. And I am not going to hold my breath waiting.
This guy is so clearly on Sig’s payroll it’s like he is almost taking dictation from their lawyers. Must be a good gig.
No, Sig has not “won” every case. Far from it. They settled (ie lost) the Hartley class action. They settled (ie lost) the Vadnais matter, and the Sheperis matter. The Guay judge expressly found that his P320 went off fully seated in its crappy Sig holster, and that Sig’s experts lacked credibility, were unpersuasive, and that the Roscommon 2016 discharge incident was persuasive evidence that the p320 can fire without a trigger pull after the issue was fully litigated over a week.
Please get your facts straight before shilling for Sig. It’s embarrassing.
Got links or case styles for those? I for one would like to read them.
LKB, I did a quick search and found that Sig Sauer has one of those case files on its website. Not sure if I supplied the proper links for the others.
https://www.sigsauer.com/hartley
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/7584008/vadnais-v-sig-sauer-inc/
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6136825/sheperis-v-sig-sauer-inc/
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17319551/guay-v-sig-sauer-inc/
The Guay jury hung after three days on all five counts You omit that salient fact The foreman had his eyes closed for most of the trial and/or was wearing sunglasses So it was hardly the slam dunk Sig is portraying And the Judge herself found that his p320 went off without a trigger while fully seated in its holster and Sig’s experts were not very credible
It is no surprise that some judges use Daubert to engage in judicial fact finding which is as every bit a violation of the Seventh Amendment as gun grabbers are to the Second
Many videos have captured this gun going off without the trigger being pulled and only the naive, those clueless about striker fired guns, or the agenda-driven,
for profit or pro corporate bias, would brush them aside as meaningless When and if it hits a loved one of one of these decisionmakers, they will sadly sing a different tune
‘There’s no there’ Ha Pretty sure i whose cliche line that is
“Many videos have captured this gun going off without the trigger being pulled …”
Why would one be shooting video of someone doing nothing with his gun and then it suddenly goes off? Could you refer me to one, ten, perhaps fifty such videos?
Do you really not grasp the purpose and prevalence of security cameras and dashcams? And did you assume they just all upload to YouTube automatically?
Someone, please get this boomer a clue.
I’m sticking with my Sig’s.
Just wondering, didnt everyone see the videos of the gun firing while in hand from the momentum of moving the gun forward to aim and fire? there are several videos if you go looking. And none of them were in holster or while being holstered.
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