TTAG’s posting policy: no flaming the website, its authors or fellow commentators. I’ve noticed an increasing number of flame wars in our comments sections. In some posts, readers ripped TTAG a new one re: our editorial stance and style. In others, they called each other names. These interchanges are unacceptable. Where and when Dan, Nick, Matt or I discover them, they are – and will continue to be – deleted. TTAG’s size makes it difficult to douse all the flames. If you encounter an ad hominem or personal attack please email a link to guntruth@me.com with the word FLAME in caps in the subject field. Meanwhile, I am now officially extending this policy to the subjects of our posts. In other words . . .
No more calling Executive Director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence Josh Horwitz “the biggest turd in the Huffington Post punchbowl,” for example. Or telling the world that you want to have sex with Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense jefe Shannon Watts.
Horwitz, Watts and others have taken to trolling TTAG and other pro-gun internet outlets for comments that cast the pro-gun position in a deeply unfavorable light. (Click here for Horwitz’s HuffPo character assassination piece.) There is no need to provide the antis with ammunition in this ongoing battle for the hearts and minds of 2A fence sitters.
So, from this point forward, commentators can tear apart anyone’s logic or opinions but not in a personally disrespectful way. We are going to take the high road here. And why not? We don’t need to resort to low-brow “humor” to skewer those who would deny our natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. To quote America’s Gun-Grabber-in-Chief, we’re better than that. Really.
http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/03/6810-mark-kellys-ar-15-stunt-reveals-embarrassing-giffords-photo-leak/
Oops…
Ok ladies, now we start the chorus line on the left leg first.
This will be difficult for some because the entire gun control movement is essentially an ad-hominem attack.
IT’S A TRAP.
Consider: takeonthecode.com is “managed” by a woman named Rebecca Bond. Rebecca lists as one of her EVOLVE colleagues one Claudine Cheever. Claudine has a twitter account, “@auntieclaudine”. Do a twitter search for “auntieclaudine gun” and browse the tweets. Since she’s liable to protect them after being exposed, here are a few:
Claudine Cheever @auntieclaudine Apr 18
Powerful crystal clear from Gabby Giffords. . .A Senate in the Gun Lobby’s Grip http://nyti.ms/Z4rdlU
Claudine Cheever @auntieclaudine 1 Feb 2013
the right to own a gun vs the right for a six year old to have his life. #unequalrights http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/s/show-the-nra-what-real-patriotism-looks-like …
Claudine Cheever @auntieclaudine 18 Jan 2013
Please read+add your support to this letter on gun control written by 87 heads of schools in NYC. #neverforgetsandyhook http://hosagv.org
Claudine Cheever @auntieclaudine 16 Jan 2013
“Repugnant and cowardly.” Yep, sounds like gun lovers! NRA Ad WH Response: ‘Repugnant And Cowardly’ http://huff.to/UQukbI via @HuffPostPol
Seriously, these guys are anti-2A statists. Dan – please call this out!!
Need to get some adjustable night sights on that FsN you used for the pic.
And a Jarvis barrel with a can to keep that blast down. Can’t shoot what you can’t see.
Mr. Farago,
I agree by and large with your stance.
That said, please do not implement a brainless “zero tolerance policy”. By all means I encourage the site administrators to exercise good judgment and delete ad hominem attacks as they see fit.
Just realize that there are times when it is necessary and appropriate to call a spade a spade. Furthermore, we need to be able to express passion on our side. Being passionate in a constructive way is a positive character trait. Passion also shows that we are not pushovers. The last thing you want to do is present us as intellectual wimps. After all, what do the gun grabbers have to fear from our positions of truth if we come across as lacking the intestinal fortitude to enforce those truths?
“The last thing you want to do is present us as intellectual wimps. After all, what do the gun grabbers have to fear from our positions of truth if we come across as lacking the intestinal fortitude to enforce those truths?”
Enforce, root word force. The truth does not need to be forced. The truth just is. Anything you force on to anyone will have the opposite effect that you intended.
Excercise of the first amendment will not be tolerated!
The First Amendment addresses government infringement on your right of expression. It’s got nothing to do with this.
+1 I’m shocked by how many people think the bill of rights apply to interactions between private entities.
I’m assuming that flaming the website means like trolling it or picking fights. am i correct?
I’m guilty of this, so maybe I can help. I used to do it all the time (just ask RF). Flaming the website kinda goes hand in hand with the “questions about editorial stance/style” thing. Like me saying that we give MDA way too much press, or pointing out that a particular post is undeniably clickbait with no redeeming value, etc. Basically, if you have a problem with the type of stories being run, send an email, don’t blow up the comments section.
By the way anyone who wants to continue to comment however they please is more them welcome in GD at arfcom. That place is no holds barred.
Thanks for letting us know where to move on to from here.
Don’t let the proverbial door hit you on the way out.
In order to combat the Castros in Cuba, JFK started his own top secret assassination squad.
Could it be the local Aspen area bottler/distributor who paid out the money without the parent company’s input?
Armstrong & Getty, a local Sacramento based morning talk show, they interviewed the lawyer that argued this case before the 9th circuit. It’s in the 2-14-14 podcast, It’s at the start of the 7 am hour if anyone is interested. Oh and their podcast are free.
http://www.kste.com/media/podcast-the-armstrong-and-getty-show-armandgettypodcast/
The 1965 graduating class from the Joe Biden School of Self Defense Marksmanship for Women.
LOL!
Just another veiled attempt at gun control. Pure BS.
Good.
Some of the hateful comment I see here make me cringe when I see them through a fence-sitter or an anti’s eyes.
No point reinforcing negative stereotypes.
If that’s the way you really feel, go play on Stormfront or /b.
Wow! Look at all the big words. It’s inconceivable!
And all of this inspired because people pointed out Nick’s biases in your response to the R51 review. Sounds like this will be the beginning of the end of TTAG if you’re going to ban criticism.
No, it’s inspired because, as I said above, people are getting in the habit of jumping straight to namecalling and vomiting obnoxious vitriol all over the page at the first sign of disagreement. The most minor version would be the couple folks around here that call anyone who disagrees with them a libtard or a leftard or the like. That’s the fairly tame end of the scale.
To my knowledge, not a single comment referencing Nick’s biases (or lack thereof) got edited or deleted.
“To my knowledge, not a single comment referencing Nick’s biases (or lack thereof) got edited or deleted.”
Not what I’m talking about.
“In some posts, readers ripped TTAG a new one re: our editorial stance and style. In others, they called each other names. These interchanges are unacceptable. ”
That’s what inspired the crackdown on people being able to state their opinions without being censored, and it’s what’s going to drive readers away. Be an adult and accept criticism when you do something wrong, don’t scream “I CAN DO NO WRONG!” and delete comments pointing out your flaws.
I don’t think it is that complicated, really. If someone comes into my house, and calls me names, I ask them to leave and don’t invite them back. It is, after all, my house. If they don’t like my rules, don’t visit. That doesn’t mean one shouldn’t be open to criticism or comments, but there are ways to do it and ways not to. Someone doesn’t like something, drop Dan or RF an email. Taking potshots in public is cheap grandstanding designed to inflate the public opinion of the commenter and not to elicit corrective action on the part of the writer of a post in question.
Civility and mutual respect for differences of opinion is not being PC, weak, or any other silly thing. Granted, I am older than many of the people on this site, but I’ve always considered those two things a sign of being an adult.
I do recognize that the anti-gunners would not follow these rules, but so what. Since when did it become normal for strong people, firm in their convictions, to regularly resort of defensive, ad hominem attacks, particularly when the facts are on our side?
Just my opinion, not the truth of the ages.
A titillating handgun course
The politically correct view from the new home in liberal Austin has appeared already….
Yep. Thanks, Obama.
Remember, the lower you have to aim, the less likely you’ll want to shoot
I, for one, think this is overall a good policy. And the reminder is timely. I’ve noticed a recent slide in the civility of the comments around here, and hope this corrects the course before things get too unpleasant.
Also, you guys doing the moderating (Matt in FL, do you even have a day job?) are greatly appreciated. It’s not a fun job, but it’s very necessary. Thanks!
I do not, currently. But I’ve been spending a lot of time in the last 2-3 weeks looking, which means less time here, which is why more of the negativity is sliding through lately. Less oversight combined with an uptick in the unpleasant behavior makes for bad juju.
I can see why we should mind our p&q’s with the anti ‘s and such, but does mean we can’t make fun of the “FFL Nazi”? The guy writes articles crying about his customers and we can’t complain about him? I realize pricing is hard and all.
I think that the only comments that got cleaned up (deleted, edited, whatever) under his posts are those that offered only a flame, but nothing constructive. If it says nothing other than “You’re an obnoxious douchebag,” it probably went away. That said, he seems to revel in others disdain, so I think there’s a little more latitude there.
So, if someone acts like an ass you can’t call them out on it?
We can talk about shooting people, but saying Horwitz is a turd, Watts is being an ass, or whatever is where we draw the line?
I think Yeager said this one best, paraphrasing, if you can’t handle some cursing or someone messing with you probably can’t handle a fight for your life with a gun.
I will give you a plus one on calling someone a dick when they are obviously spewing hate and ignorance. Sometimes nothing else needs saying. But that’s reserved for the flagrantly close-minded. I like to try to articulate why someone is wrong when they seem open minded. As to Paul being a condescending type, ya I’m right on board with that one. Toten seems angry about being censored. He’s not all wrong. But ad hominem attacks should be reserved for the bottom of the barrel posters we sometimes get here. Not for someone who disagrees with post or comment with a thoughtful response.
Girls, girls…aim for the family jewels!
I guess I’m mostly on board, but I hope I can still call someone a douchebag. That would be a little over the top.
Incessant flame wars between commenters are bad mostly because they’re boring. There are plenty of other places people can rip each other new ones over insufficient fealty to the 1911 or the GLOCK or whatever perceived shortcoming they’ve revealed. It just gets old.
“Insufficient fealty…….” That struck my funny bone. Spot on, and nicely done.
as an old salt…I think all the ‘peace’ will have gone out of any future protest….in this country….shields and shotguns and ‘marines’ will not be met with friendly ‘flowers’…..imho…Semper Fi
Pepsi changed their logo in order to have drinkers associate with the Obama symbol around the time of His first wave of political hype. I crossed them off my list when they made the change.
Why can’t the SWAT guys get these with flashing red and blue LED’s? that way the no knock warrants will go smoother…. /sarc off
This is WAY better than that “just pee or vomit on yourself” training!!
I managed a FB page for a little while and struggled with this as well. MDA and their ilk are silently monitoring pro2a entities looking for useful screenshots to push their propaganda that all people of the gun are foul mouthed, temperamental hotheads. We must be as tactical with our communications as we are with our weapons. That gray matter between your ears is your primary weapon and should always be in condition 1. And for those that make the ridiculous accusation that those that show civility and restraint can’t effectively use a weapon. How about I flip that fallacious logic back on you and state if you can’t be controlling and tactful with your words you probably can’t show restraint and be trusted carrying a firearm? I say good on ya TTAG.
If we were to have bad riots say because the banks/money died most people will be crying for the Marines/Army to help… Riots are not a Civil War or is it a attack on 2A…..People need to put their heads on straight. and many people will support the military with arms to restore order…and the American people will want law & order and safety to return ….and the people on handouts will have no legal grounds ……….
How are any of us supposed to respond to Firearm Concierge’s stories? It gonna be rough not being able to call him a feminine hygiene product that weve all taken to doing
The policy should be suspended for FC’s copypasta.
He revels in it like a pig in **** anyway and giving him hell when he deserves it (which is a lot of the time) does no harm to the pro-second amendment cause.
It seems that the concept of treat others as you would want to be treated has gone by the wayside, as has the concept of thick skin.
I wish they had one of these near me. I would love to find a nice S&W .357 mag revolver for a decent price.
Never knew of the policy before. I don’t think I have gone over the line, but knowing myself and my disdain for PC I very well could have. If I have offended some one, it was not intentional. I do agree we do not need to give the anti’s any help. I much rather use their words against them. It is hard to win a debate when your opponent uses your own words to prove his case.
I will miss Dirk’s comments about MDA, though I do not know what he has against Jerry Lewis.
We should be allowed to openly debate what the writer says in a review or how the review is perceived or written. That is why there is a comment section. I had to go back and read the R51 review and clearly Nick had problems and was called out on it. So what…can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Feedback is expected. I believe felons lose their rights when they commit a crime that constitutes as a felony and should not be allowed to own a gun, ever. Call me out on it…don’t care. My belief.
There is a line between pointing out problems with a review and flaming. I prefer to receive comments about TTAG’s editorial stance or style out of the comments section because experience has shown that those sorts of comments multiply and dominate the comments section, crowding out other, more salient points.
When I see that a particular review or editorial slant offends a significant number of people, I create a housekeeping post – with loosened flaming rules – so that people can vent, publicly, about the site. That’s exactly what I did for Nick’s review. Which, by the way, we edited to reflect some of the valid concerns raised by readers.
All I’m asking for here is civility. A safe place where people can discuss firearms-related issues without fear of being personally attacked for their opinions. I don’t want TTAG to become what Autoblog became: a garden over a sewer.
I appreciate ALL your comments. I used to read all your comments. Every single one. Now that’s not possible. But I do believe it’s possible for all of us to treat each other with respect. To take responsibility for our words and the words of others. We must be the bigger person than the antis.
RF, I think you guys should work your comment here up into a standard “comment policy” note and make it prominent on the home paqe of this site.
You nailed it, brother.
And, as one guilty of needlessly flaming from time to time, I resolve to do better.
Thanks, and keep up the great work.
RF – thank you for the clarification.
I was a bit angsty until I came to your post, but I think what you’re asking for sounds more than reasonable.
Toten is really flipping out about this. He is actually contemplating the removal of his attacking and trolling comments. …so upset about not being able to leave personal attacks. Lol.
One more, if you guys do not want comments, get rid of that section. Gun owners have been insulted from being called whimps to pepophiles and everything in between including the insults to the length of our penises.
We want comments, we don’t want people tearing each other new bodily orifices.
Wimp doesn’t have an ‘h’ 🙂
Sooooooo… your telling me this isn’t actually a real meeting of the California state assembly? Cause it looks and sounds an awful lot like how I imagined it would. California Uber Alles!
I’d rather this weren’t true, but no skin off my back otherwise. Pepsi’s crap, and I got fat doin’ the Dew in college. Lost the weight after I quit drinking that bilge and got more serious about my health though.
Faraogo is a conundrum. He is both a douche bag and sage depending on what he is writing about.
Private property rights. Every time I say a store or a business can’t keep out gun carriers as it violates their civil rights I get the whole private property rights take precedent over my civil rights. This site is private property. If you don’t like the rules, go to another site. Vote with your keyboard. If enough leave the site will change or shut down.
Personally, I don’t think that will happen. Classless, tasteless sites are a dime a dozen on the interwebz thingie.
Oh, man. Here we go.
The Brady Bill passed, in no small part, due to the failure of our side to deny Sarah Brady’s moral authority. She rode her husbands injury all the way to a real Federal infringement of our “shall not be infringed” rights. Our side backed down, because we didn’t want to look mean. After all, Sarah’s husband was crippled.
Today, the left believes it has Sarah Brady 2.0 in Gabby and Mark.
MAIG has largely been discredited, MDA seems to have the same recruitment ceiling as the Ring Wraiths (only 8 or 9 ever show up). But Gabby and Mark are special.
Americans are big-hearted people. If you speak to their sympathy, they will listen. Giffords condition offers her credibility, that she could never buy any other way. We see it for what it is: an ill woman who should be in therapy being used by powerful people to white-out the Bill of Rights. We get it.
We see it for the joke it is. Our job is to tell the joke to everyone, everywhere.
Relentlessly.
If we allow Buzz Lightyear and Mrs. Potatohead to go unchallenged, they will play hell with the Constitution that she, herself, took an oath to preserve and defend. Mocking them is a neccessary and proper work of citizenship.
I hope we are allowed to do so. Thank you RF for this forum.
Dude, you just insulted characters from Toy Story, FLAME DELETED. 🙂
Hate the sin, not the sinner. Or, at least, mock the sin, not the sinner. Up to a point.
“First hand accounts of this turn-in would be appreciated, as would any pictures. Updates will be posted as information becomes available.”
Most importantly, let us know if you score any nice boomsticks.
Is Dean from Florida?
““no questions asked” event. So the possibility of stolen firearms seems a little higher than usual. ”
I have yet to hear of a kicks4guns event that wasn’t no questions asked. you couldn’t spend your 50 starbucks card in jail
Some turn in events have recorded personal information. The new law in Arizona requires that people be given a receipt for a firearm turned in.
Most of them do not collect information.
I mention that in an event run by this department, just a few months ago, the number of stolen firearms was six percent versus the usual one percent or less. It seemed to be useful information.
“Okay ladies! All that’s left is to track down that butcher of a hairdresser and stop this madness FOREVER!”
I’ve only begun posting here recently, and several of my posts have been on this very subject. We are in the very fortunate position of being in a debate where the facts favor us. Why, then, would we want to let the opposition reframe the debate as a “virtuous gun safety advocates vs. racist, sexist gun crazies” crusade? God knows I like a good verbal altercation, and there’s nothing wrong with beginning a response with “You’re a jackass” or the equivalent. BUT, and here’s the important part, it needs to be followed up: “You’re a jackass, AND HERE’S WHY…” with an explanation of why the anti-2A argument is invalid or poorly reasoned. Just saying “Hur, hur, your a douche, blow me, hur hur” REALLY DOES make us look like what the antis want us to look like. Seriously, this is why I hate Ann Coulter. As much as I may agree with her on a particular issue, she makes me look like a bitchy %&#* by association.
Oooo, sounds like some 1911 guys really got kerfuffled.
This is an excellent book. I’m about 2/3 through it. The main theme is the question of the ethics of self-defense when individuals and families were targeted vs. the use of “political violence”, i.e. organized resistance from the group as a whole. A very balanced view and a unique look at blacks’
struggle to have most whites recognize their rights as citizens (including their 2d Amendment rights).
I highly recommend it.
I used Pepsi to clean oxidized battery posts, but will be switching to Coke.
The first Avengers, the all female and Bob were organized to deter rape and womanizing. These Ladies are serious. Can you spot Bob?
Is it wrong that I got an erection looking at that picture chart of Mosins? Never mind if it’s wrong. I don’t want to be right.
Mosin, Will you be my Valentine?
Thanks for posting this.
I know I’ll keep reading and posting. I appreciate civility and think that better discussions lead to better outcomes. Name-calling accomplishes nothing, other than helping the name-caller to blow off steam and/or have an inflated ego. I know I’m certainly not perfect (I don’t think anyone is) but I enjoy the intelligent discussion without the ad hominem stuff.
Gun owners already have a bad reputation in the world, and simply adding fuel to the fire (with petty comments) does NOT help us persuade others about why gun owners are in the right. It also makes it harder to reach the folks who could be persuaded to join our side IF they are properly educated about firearms.
For those who are incapable of self-filtering and are simply unable to engage in dialogue without throwing insults around, the entire rest of the internet awaits you. There’s plenty of trash talk out there. But I don’t think it’s necessary or appropriate, and I think it is counterproductive when you’re attempting to fight a political fight.
We have the truth on our side. We don’t need to fight with childish insults. The gun prohibitionists do.
Finally fed up with constantly sewing it back on The Wendy’s gave Peter Pan’s shadow an ultimatum
Eeuw! Bugs!
The 642 CT (Crimson Trace) model with the laser built into the grips is tits (that is a positive naval adjective). The size of the grip is much better too. Damn near perfect. If you can see it, you can shoot very accurately (ignoring the mechanical sights altogether). What a magnificent invention!
regards
lwk
Gimme some of that 28/76 target rifle!
It was the VZ54 that caught my eye. But both look really interesting.
” A J-frame would not be a proper choice for noobs, especially women.”
Absolutely agree on that.
“On the other hand, no experienced shooter should be without a J-frame, and my pick of the litter is the Model 642.”
And agree again. My 642 with the Crimson Trace laser came without the internal lock, like the old models (I don’t think I would have bought it otherwise).
regards,
lwk
I am so proud of my sisters of the gun!!!
In addition to the fact that Goodyear attempts to impose its own corporate policies upon its franchises, its owners and customers thereof, I would point out that you should NEVER, EVER, patronize any auto repair establishment that works on a commission system. Simply put, the more they ‘find’ wrong with a car, regardless of whether anything is actually wrong, the more money they make, should the customer unwittingly agree to pay. Don’t fall for it. Speaking from personal experience, same goes for Firestone.
Their tires are for the most part just fine. It’s just that their corporate policies suck, and endanger the customer. Your money is best spent elsewhere, pure and simple.
Tom
The secretarial pool is tired of having their fannys’ pinched.
If you can’t hit them from here, run.
I read about this on Yahoo yesterday the 13th. It’s out there and the public does know about it if they have any interest.
Being ignored by the national media is to be expected. They have to parse their response and wait to be issued talking points by their handlers.
keep all your stray ammo in a locked container to prevent such casual problems. Including casings and components
I’m glad to see this posted. I was seriously about to stop visiting here at all. There is absolutely no reason to talk like middle schoolers once you are an adult. If you can’t act like an adult, don’t expect to be treated as one. Harsh rules shouldn’t have to exist; but they do when people refuse to speak in a civil way.
It’s ad hominem attacking the personal qualities of and misrepresenting the thoughts and words of the entire pro-gun community. As we are misrepresented by our malefactor, we must strive to not fall victim to false reason and emotion.
Wolves are there and their cronies.
Sheep are there simple and innocent.
We are there, the loyal Sheepdogs.
The question is are you a Wolf or a
Sheepdog? It’s all about how you use your teeth! Stay alert my friends.
I have a 1986 version of the P220 with the marking “Made in W. Germany” on the slide, and in 27 years of ownership, I’ve beaten the crap out of that gun, and it’s still my go to gun in almost every situation. I’ve shot probably 20,000 rounds (factory, target, +P, reloads, you name it) through it, and it still shoots just as tight as the day I took it out of the box. The thing is that it’s only jammed twice. The first jam was my reload’s fault, and the second was during a training class when a .40 S&W round was inadvertently mixed in with my ammo. The .40 S&W round fed, chambered, and fired, but the bulged and split casing stuck in the chamber causing the gun to jam. I own several other autoloaders in .380 ACP, 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP, but the reliable and tough SIG P220 stays with me almost all the time even during daily use as my preferred concealment weapon. You can’t beat the thing in any situation. SIG Sauer makes a fine, reliable, durable, tough, and accurate weapon, and the P220 is the flagship of the line. Period.
My summary judgement:
1) Since the site exploded in size after Sandy Hook, I’ve basically quit commenting because there have been too many jerks trolling around here. Before I’d drop a comment or two a day, now it’s less than 1/week.
2) I don’t care if something has been floating around the intertubes a couple of days. I barely have time to read TTAG, much less the other 9K sites out there.
3) To all the flame happy, mostly newb, commentators out here, go back to the months before Newtown and look at the comments section then. We actually had adult, enlightening, albeit mostly lighthearted discussions. I used to LEARN things from other people here. I don’t hold it against the staff at all. It’s the nature of the beast. I just wish there was more civility here.
4) The phrase kill them with kindness has a meaning. I always used this place to practice arguing with antis. Stay frosty and on point. Remember, you aren’t trying to change their minds, you’re trying to change your audience’s minds. Our audience is fence sitters. We won’t do that by spitting vitriol everywhere.
mmmm censorship. the same kind found by anti-gun types? perfect example. writers here will bitch and moan about MDA and all the other anti groups disabling comments, but if a critical word is posted in TTAG we now delete them? any criticisms I’ve had have been accompanied with suggestions to not alienate potential newcomers. I firmly stand by my thoughts which will no longer be heard. no 1st amendment on the interwebs, I suppose?
Well that was funny…the first time…years ago.
“Festival” website still says underwritten by Pepsico. That’s a much bigger target than just Pepsi, which I will continue to drink with much gusto. Hope Pepsico and its BOD comes to their senses.
You migt want to clarify the Goodyear notice posting. The paragraphs make it sound like a Goodyear located next to the Orange County Virginia Sheriff’s office which was announced in a VCDL alert. Living in Orange County, the only things near the Sheriff’s office is a water tower, the animal shelter, and the dump. Only at the end did it mention Florida. Source: I live in that Virginia county.
“The unfortunate fact…The only difference is that with the private-sale loophole, these sales go entirely undetected.”
If these are going entirely undetected then on what grounds do you anchor the statement to? Is the point of the statement is to make everybody who does this seem criminal?
The dude is just tryingto be a Great Thinker ™ and justify a position as educator at an educational institution. This is just grandstanding to try to get a couple of seconds of fame.
And so, here we are, it’s Saturday morning at 8:12, my local time, and we are up to nearly 200 comments on a post about comments.
TTAG conversation, you got to love it.
It never ceases both to amuse and amaze me how people who pay nothing for the intellectual property being provided on a site like this whine when the providers of the IP indicate what their policy is regarding comments on a web site that they own, operate, manage and run.
Their site, their rules.
Everyone in the good old USA is free to say whatever they want, wherever they want to, but there are consequences at times and if you actually are having heartburn over TTAG’s comment policy you can always start your own firearms blog site and comment to your heart’s content.
It’s just that simple.
The truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. – Winston Churchill
I agree. The invective, name calling and abuse comes primarily from anti-gun people. Fact is we are, or should be, better than that. Stick to principle and fact and we will be good.
Actually, no, that’s not true. As with any gun forum, TTAG has had its share of immature little boys who can not contribute much more than the typical puerile ad-hominem to any conversation.
Hmm, everytime I go to the HuffPro Horowitz piece it locks up the browser on my iPad. I had to restart my device last time. Anyone else have this problem?
I’m as cool with now as I was 6 months ago or so when it was first announced. The only time I will resort to name calling is when certain people denigrate the efforts of those in the armed forces. Especially when it is aimed those of us whose sole mission was CASEVAC. Feel free to delete anything I say that is offensive. I’ll try to be a good boy. Some things just ruffle my feathers. I’ll call out anyone who calls a service member, active duty or prior service a baby killer.
I’d also observe that some people get themselves WAY, WAY too emotionally invested in a gun blog site.
What about the five finger discount loophole? Always assuming criminals are buying and not stealing.
Don’t forget about the Mexican boarder loophole…
That’s one of my arguments for “the just look at Japan, England, and Australia on gun control” folks.
Thousands of miles of open boarder that people can simply walk illegal items across makes gun control in America a pipe dream, at best.
The statement by the professor and others like it demonstrate either a basic disconnect from how the criminal underworld actually operates, or reflect an agenda that the speaker is unwilling to openly discuss: Either that they wish for complete civilian disarmament, or that they believe restricting lawful access to firearms will have a ‘trickle-down’ effect on criminal access to firearms.
Taking the statement at face value: Criminals by and large do not use firearms. There are more serious penalties involved for committing most crimes using a gun than without, and moreover, most criminals are largely non-violent. In the subset of criminals who are routinely violent or at least have a very high propensity for violence there are virtually always underlying mental health and addiction issues as well as a general disregard for the law excepting where there is too little chance of evading arrest for committing the crime in question. It’s important to point out these distinctions because attempting to approach the problem of violent criminals without understanding that their thinking is radically different in many ways from both non-criminals and non-violent criminals dooms the approach to failure from inception. Without delving too deeply into criminology, the tiny minority subtype of criminals who are willing to commit violent crimes like armed robbery is still different (with some overlap) from those who commit murder and rape. While the former type may murder, the latter types are typically pathological personalities who are essentially human predators and completely disenfranchised from anything we recognize as morality.
Both of these minority subsets of criminals have as defining characteristics severe impulse control problems and a flagrant disregard for others and the law.
There disregard for humanity, morality and the law extends to murder for their own purposes or for profit, violent assault for the same reasons and to rape either as an uncontrollable impulse or simply from a sense of entitlement to satisfaction coupled to an intense disregard for the rights and well being of others.
These types of people are not generally truly in control of their criminality and typically do not perform risk assessment prior to committing a crime but rather act on impulse or opportunity. To think that these individuals will respond to a malum prohibitum restriction on the possession of firearms in the course of their violation of the most sacred Malum in se laws of which we can conceive is both naïve to the point of being laughable and obviously, completely absurd.
In the short form regarding background checks and prohibition of private sales: These types of criminals typically acquire firearms either from criminal associates who are likewise disinterested in obedience to the law, or by stealing them from lawful owners . . .
It’s this latter that addresses one of the subtexts of the professor’s statement: That by restricting lawful ownership one may restrict criminal possession. There is factual merit to this approach in so much as it has potential to eventually work to some degree. However it’s utility is mitigated by the fact that long before criminal access to firearms is restricted to any significant degree there must be enormous restriction of lawful possession. This is because criminals will target whoever still has lawful possession for theft or robbery in order to gain access to firearms. It is also why such an approach can only logically end in a complete prohibition on lawful ownership of firearms and in wide spread confiscation.
Given that ample evidence suggests that prohibition of firearms has little effect on violent crime rates (other than some evidence that it leads to an actual increase) there is little to no social utility or legitimate public/governmental interest in pursuing civilian disarmament for the purpose of crime reduction. This is of course secondary to the fact that the abridgement of natural rights is never an acceptable method of curbing crime and further that all evidence suggests violence is more common in totalitarian societies than in free ones.
The final subtext to the Professors statement is the theme of civilian disarmament for purposes other than reduction of crime. I can think of no legitimate social utility or governmental interest in civilian disarmament, but a multitude of illegitimate and even nefarious reasons why it may be desirable.
Given that it’s well known that gun-control does not equal crime-control, and that guns are used defensively at a rate several orders of magnitude more often than they are used for criminal activity, the only conceivable reasons for desiring civilian disarmament are to leave the populace defenseless in the face of criminal violence (which doesn’t seem a very altruistic goal), to leave the populace defenseless from governmental tyranny (also not a very lofty goal), or to satisfy some emotional need of the person(s) who advocate for civilian disarmament (certainly not a valid reason to usurp the liberties and rights of the people and to leave them defenseless against criminal violence and government tyranny).
This leads me to conclude that the appropriate course when encountering someone who endorses infringement of the right to keep and bear arms is to determine by interlocution what it is that they actually wish to accomplish, why they find it desirable, and test their understanding of the consequences, then shine a spotlight on these and inquire as to whether they still endorse such infringement.
Try the app 2nd Vote. It rates companies on their support of various issues, with higher ratings given to more conservative companies. If you only care about guns, they give you that info too. It’s a little sparse right now but hopefully it grows.
Yes, this guy has his head up his butt, but the first half of his statement is probably true. With so much attention on how everybody is tooling up, criminals who wouldn’t do so otherwise are probably thinking about uping their tactics too. i.e. gun>knife>nothing.
30k a year in gun deaths in USA on average-.
16k suicides(a right to die)
8k gang related(over 90% of firearms taken from gang members are stolen)
1.5k police and justified
1k accidents(all preventable by common sense)
That leaves about 3.5k a year on average murdered by regular folks who snapped, and this includes the rare mass shooting. Out of 330+ million people and 400+ million firearms floating around, how in the hell are these numbers bad? What’s shocking but sensible is the fact that over half of these 3.5k murders are committed by family members or friends against family members or friends(domestic) and a unknown number are committed in “no gun” zones but obviously most of the mass shootings are.
Now my point.
Of all these shootings, murders and suicides. Only a very few have ever been linked to a person who purchased a firearm from a private sale who was not “qualified” to own a firearm.
I love private sales because I get to meet and network with some good gun people, many of my current friends I’ve made in the last 5 years, and that’s no easy task at 40, have come from armslist or mnguntalk, a local MN gun forum. The majority of the people who sell and buy privately do so because they enjoy it, they meet other gun folks, they can get good deals and rare finds and some, I don’t have a number, enjoy the fact that they can own a firearm that is not registered in their name ie-possible future gun confiscation.
The reason for the fight against private sales isn’t because of gun crimes because they are basically non-existent in this circle, it’s because the gov and anti-gun groups want to know where every single firearm in the nation is and who it belongs to. And for what reason? That’s obvious and already stated, confiscation. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s an actual force that’s alive and well within our political system.
So when someone claims private sales are a danger to America and it’s citizens I say no, it’s just the opposite, private sales protects America and it’s citizens.
Preaching to the choir I know.
opening up and draining all of the ball sacks on TTAG won’t really result in anything good … witness the men at Return of King’s response to the huge herd of feminists protesting their “5 reasons to date a girl with an eating disorder” article recently.
they not only kept their ball sacks intact, but they dared anyone to challenge their right to keep them.
that is how men win fights with leftists.
http://www.returnofkings.com/21637/publisher-response-to-the-eating-disorders-article
how do men lose fights with leftists? by allowing the leftists to decide when and how men get to keep their ball sacks. because guess when that will be? NEVER, that’s when.
Yep, it’s all about Leftists:
“There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons,”
Ronald Reagan
“I do not believe in taking away the right of the citizen for sporting, for hunting and so forth, or for home defense. But I do believe that an AK-47, a machine gun, is not a sporting weapon or needed for defense of a home.” —Ronald Reagan, at his birthday celebration in 1989.
Mina, much love, but I think you’re missing the point. I think it is simply that the level of discourse at TTAG has dropped to a level where people are just calling each other poopy heads and leaving it at that. It adds nothing to the discourse and makes us all look like troglodytes. No one at TTAG is trying to immaculate the commenters; they are just trying to keep things civil. Again, I truly appreciate everything you contribute. We will not win this culture war by eating our own young.
Here is my advice from a long time reader. Don’t forget or lose the character that made you so famous in the first place. TTAG never used to care what other people thought, were never politically correct, and had no problem exposing people’s dirty laundry. It was refreshing and made sense because the word “truth” was in the title of the blog. I am not saying the character of the writers has changed, however it is easy to when you become so big. This is a friendly call for introspection.
“The only difference is that with the private-sale loophole, these sales go entirely undetected.”
As they should continue to do so. When the .gov knows where all the guns are they start taking them away from the people. Just like CA.
Oops our records are wrong, sorry we sent a SWAT team and shot your dog.
No loss, I didn’t eat or drink their garbage products!
Wow. I’ve been following this and had pretty well decided that they would stay in Ilion. Then out of nowhere they are leaving. I’m sure they will phase out their NY operations after the plant is set up in Alabama. Outrageous taxes and an anti gun government.
Good for them, vote with your feet.
Remmy got $5 million from New York to stay in Ilion, and now it’s moving at least some of its NY personnel to Alabama? OMG, this is too delicious for words!
I guess Remmy took the hint from Gov. Mussolini when he said that people who support 2A don’t belong in New York.
Come on, Ralph, Stop insulting Il Duce by comparing him to the tin pot banana republic despot in New York State.
That’s going to leave a mark on Cuomo and his buddies. It couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch. The only real downside in all of this is the negative impact and disruption (economic, social, emotional and historical) that the move will have on the employees, their families and the community. It’s sad that it has to come to this but the legislature has made it’s bed and must now lay in it. Idiots.
At the other end of the country, we have Kevin Deleon. Although I’ve never really wanted an AR, his histrionics about “ghost guns” impelled me to go out and buy an 80% lower just because his stupidity pissed me off. I bet Remington feels the same way about Cuomo.
I Love NY Just because I escaped in 1980 and want to watch its downfall. Ha Ha Ha
That is all.
I’m only sad that they’re not moving to Florida.
Keep swiping that unlimited credit line Visa card that China gave us….its cool.
I got a pig tag on my new CA hunting license. A .44 mag that was easy to carry might be a good idea. It would also be a spur to return to reloading. Have to talk about this to my son.
So what they’re saying is that the exceptions to the rule i.e. Trayvon Martin carry greater weight in making such decisions than say the statistics that show that shall issue states or constitutional carry states that have a 10% lower homicide rate compared to states or jurisdictions with no issue or may issue.
Señor Lowy then believes that history or precedent should be the deciding factor anyway. I think the Constitution should set precedent.
Furthermore he goes on to place his own judgment on the decision by calling it “aberrant”, “split” (2-1 is not really split), and “dangerous” and then believes law enforcement, not the Constitution, should have the final word on concealed carry.
Finally, to go in for the kill, he uses the propagandic technique of appealing to emotion by mentioning Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis, who’s deaths, last I checked, were exceptions to the rule and the not the norm when CCW holders use their firearms.
Again he tries to place judgment as a way to convince the audience by stating the word “error” and the phrase “this mistake” and “corrected.”
He attempts to create a supposition that concealed carry is wrong but a court of appeals composed of three judges have decided otherwise.
Wonder if the Honorable Mr. Schumer will support Ilion with his fortune the same way he fights NRA with his fortune? Good move Remington to a great state!
Ice T ok, but where does MC Hammer stand though. Oh yeah, “you can’t touch this”.
Don’t blame him for flip flopping. He has an acting career and a wife with real nice twins (coco) who needs to be supported (her not the ta’s). Anyway, being pro gun won’t pay the bills in hollywood. Just saying. Money talks. Always bet on the whore. Just ask the MDA founder what price she paid to be Bloomy’s bitch.
I will not kick someone out of the ‘pro gun’ tent for not accepting constitutional carry. I’d say shall-issue + no magazine or scary rifle bans counts as pro-gun in the current climate, especially that in hollywood/NYC/DC.
Oh, but you do support concealed carry, Mr. Sweeney. You support the Secret Service and/or plain clothes police that protect YOU as a State Senate President. Hypocritical like all the rest.
Good. Rot in prison. Idiot..
Those new Mississippi laws are amazing, especially the second one prohibiting confiscation by local governments.
I’m going to come at this from a different direction than most of you. This is likely more about sizing a 44 mag down to smaller hands. I’ve owned 2 629s and they were outright painful to shoot, even with honest 44 specials (44spec Blazer Gold Dots). I had to drop all the way down to cowboy loads to be comfortable shooting it, regardless of what grips I used.
I know that I’m not recoil sensitive as I shoot a small frame 357 with full power factory loads using boot grips. Yeah, my hand stings a bit but that’s not a big deal.
A M69 is on my list to get as a woods or hiking gun. I fully expect to carry 44 specials most of the time but it’s an easy trade to magnums depending on the situation. Or something as simple as JHP Specials for in town and magnums for the woods etc.
I will completely agree that for anything big, scary and probably meat eating (moose as the exception here) a shoulder fired weapon is preferred. For that I’ll grab a 12ga and get on with my life.
Steelheart
The real danger for NJ and other “enlightened” states (ok, I will turn sarcasm off) is that the 9th and 7th circuit cases are very detailed in going through the history of the 2nd amendment. I think there is a real possibility that SCOTUS could strike down most state laws requiring permits to purchase or register guns as invalid and then allow either concealed and/or open carry as a mandate. If NJ were smart (again, sarcasm is not subtlety) it would eliminate the purchase application and take that as an issue off the table. When California legislature eliminated open carry as an option (b/c so many were just shocked to see people open carrying unloaded guns at starbucks) this was the end for them. They were told expressly what the practical effect was (a defacto ban on 2A rights) and they said piss off. Well, look what it got them. Frankly, they antis there should try to recall all of the numbnuts who rammed that dumb law through.
But, I am actually glad this guy is such a d!ckhead. It makes the lawsuits easier.
Apparently, I need to start re-acquainting myself with X.
Not all of us! We’re still into “free love.” Why, I love my Glock 23 AND my Romanian AK-47 knock-off equally! I love the sound of gunfire; the sound of FREEDOM. I still wear a peace sign, because I believe in peace. Peace through superior firepower. Plus, there’s nothing sexier than a girl with a flower in her hair… and an AR-15 in her hands. (Oleg Volk, you’re my hero!) Peace, y’all!
When it comes to fun with guns, there’s hardly anything that can beat a big old beautiful S&W revolver.
“Are there any videos that I feature regularly that you absolutely hate and never watch?”
KJW.
Sorry. I mean she’s cute, but other than that, I just don’t get it. It’s not enough to interest me, and the fawning over her videos is really excessive, if not borderline creepy.
Slow news day?
I moved out of CT on Dec. 31 2012 and haven’t looked back. CT is essential NYC Metro area, so you can imagine the political and social climate. This article may be editorial, but you can bet that it is NOT the opinion of only one person.
And my friends that still live in CT? Not one of them stood in those lines to register their guns. And they did it on purpose. So the Courant can go take a flying leap.
if memory serves it was said that the background checks would not and could not be used for any other purpose and that they would not be stored anywhere long term
guess that was just another lie from the anti-gun crowd
How do I sponsor the kiosks? I would be happy to invest in boxes around the country for people to drop their guns into for me…no questions asked. I am behind this part of it 100% if I can be the one to empty the kiosks.
‘Bye, mister enemy ASM…
I happen to agree with this TTAG policy. We should maintain a modicum of decorum around here. After all, we’re on the side of angels. There’s no call to sound like foul mouthed heathens. Nor do we need every self-appointed grammar gendarme decrying every straying from the Chicago Manual of Style as some kind of crime against humanity. Good grief.
All that said, we are adults and this is a place to explore difficult and weighty topics. It can get a little heated and the occasional swipe is not only to be expected, it’s part of the fun. Just try not to go into titty baby mode with an enfilade of vitriol because someone called you out. No one needs to go home beaten up and bloodied from here, but it is full contact. Wear a cup.
On the risque remarks, that’s par for the course, too. True, I don’t need to see “stupid whore!” in the posts, as that adds exactly zero to the discussion. However, if a dozen hall monitors get their sashes in a twist and are poised to pounce because of someone’s double entendre about moms and the action they’re demanding, then zero tolerance will beget zero interest in visiting the site. TTAG will have jumped the pop tart.
So far, I’m not seeing that happen, though. Act like an adult and you’ll be treated like an adult. Treat me like a child, and I’ll go find different adults to hang out with.