At the bottom of yesterday’s post on a trigger-happy Texas cop, MotoJB and Rydak expressed their revulsion at our anti-police bias. As is our policy, I deleted the anti-TTAG flames and created this post for a no-holds barred discussion of our editorial stance re: law enforcement officers. I’ll kick things off with an admission: TTAG publishes a lot of stories highlighting police incompetence, arrogance, lack of accountability and general thugitude. These articles invariably unleash a stream of anti-cop comments. Does that make America’s most popular firearms blog anti-cop? At the risk of alienating a significant number of law enforcement officers who participate here . . .

Yes. Yes we are.

That’s the short answer. As you may expect, the longer answer kinda walks it back a bit. Only not really.

I founded TTAG to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns. While I’ve never  rejected an article or killed a comment because of its editorial content (save racist remarks), there’s no question that I’ve heavily biased this “exploration” towards pro-Second Amendment material.

As Brits say, it’s a fair cop (pun intended). Truth be told TTAG’s anti-cop bias reflects this Jew boy’s deep suspicion of the police community’s commitment to individual liberty in general and the Second Amendment in specific.

Yes, there is that.

My father was a Holocaust survivor. The Romanians murdered my grandparents. Also, I grew up in Rhode Island. At the time, the mob ran the state. Including the police. Who beat-up my brother and spat on my jacket (and laughed) when I was on my first date.

By osmosis, instruction and direct experience, I came to believe that the police are the all-too-willing instruments of the state. As you might imagine, I’m no great fan of the state. I share our founding fathers’ belief that the government is the greatest threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

So when I read about a cop who believes he’s above the law; an officer whose inability to master the tools of his trade (or his own nature) leads to the loss of innocent life; a high-flying law commander dripping with contempt for the right to keep and bear arms; I want to shout “Danger! Danger! Will Robinson!”

And so I do.

Don’t get me wrong. I understand the difference between a “good” cop and a “bad” cop. I appreciate the ratio between these two camps. I know that cops have saved or created millions of lives. I am aware that plenty of police support our right to keep and bear arms. I get the whole “thin blue line” thing.

But lionizing cops works against us. It elevates police to a position of power that makes me distinctly uncomfortable. As it does any lover of freedom. By the same token, singling cops out for criticism when they deserve it keeps them honest. At least in theory.

In practice, when cops trample on our liberty, or show systemic stupidity, or lobby or work against our firearms freedom, or simply fuck-up, I feel a deep urge to scream bloody murder. No surprise, then, that this website’s editorial mix reflects that perspective.

Is it really such a bad thing to highlight these instances when there’s so much at stake? Should I temper these editorial outbursts with pro-cop firearms-related stories? Is TTAG under an obligation to be fair and balanced in our cop coverage? You tell me. I promise I will listen, discuss it with our writers and adapt accordingly. If needs be.

 

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216 COMMENTS

  1. It’s refreshing to find a firearms publication that doesn’t ignore the misdeeds of the police or make excuses for them. The police are government employees. They are paid by tax dollars. Having a badge shouldn’t be an excuse to get away with a crime.

    • My thoughts too. Most pro-gun blogs, sites, and forums are knee-jerk reactive in their writing being pro-police and pro-military foreign intervention.

      • This, many times over ^^

        The police are civilians and need to be held accountable just as any government official should be. Especially so given the power they are entrusted with. TTAG is a nice breath of fresh air in this respect.

        • smwlce: I’ve said this before, but you might be new around here, so I’ll repeat it.

          “Boot licking” and its variants is one of the quickest ways to have anything else you say, no matter how cogent or reasonable, disregarded by me and a few others I’m aware of.

          I realize you’re probably to cool for school and don’t care, but I just thought I’d let you know.

  3. Police should be doing one thing, and one thing only – enforcing the law. Not making up their own according to their own personal likes and dislikes. I’m not anti-cop, just anti-jackbooted thug.

  4. Yes, you should be fair and balanced. As gun owners we have learned to respect firearms for what they can do and I’ve found that people who respect firearms find it easier to respect other people, since that sense of respect is already there. Do some cops mess up yes, are some cop ill informed yes, but then again some are not and are truly trying to do whats best for the county/state/city.

    • There have been posts here on good cops, and a good number of comments posted by what seem to be good cops. There are lots of good cops out there.

      And I would like to see a few more posts about “good cop” kinds of things – news, training, policy, etc. But the fact remains, it is the problems that arise from bad cops that must be addressed. And one of the best ways to address those problems is to shine a light on them, which this blog does.

      Given this site’s voracious appetite for content, I doubt too many stories about good cops are passed over by Robert and his team, because they don’t fit some preconceived narrative. But, in a perfect world, a few more good copy posts would make for a nice balance.

      • I did not say that there aren’t good cop content here nor was i condoning all the bad cop content. I am happy TTAG shines a light on the bad cops, I would just like to see a tiny bit more good cop content to even it out.

        • It’s hard to find good cop news. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not making a blanket condemnation. It’s just that good cops, doing their jobs the way they are supposed to don’t make the news, anymore than any other worker doing their job right does.

        • I’ll say it. There’s no such thing as a good cop. At their best, police are a necessary evil that sometimes accomplishes something good. All that has been accomplished by modern policing is the substitution of a huge amount of state-sponsored crime for a small amount of street crime.

  5. I think that in reporting certain instances where a cop has *maybe* done something wrong, but there is not definitive evidence, you will get a lot of conflicting opinions. I dont believe cops are about scrutinizing, so posting a story about a cop discharging his service weapon 41 times might lead me to come to my own conclusions that he did something wrong; calling him the IGOTD might be taking it a bit far (for the record, I know it was just posted as a story, just giving an example).

  6. Yes, I think we need a balance of good and bad. Saying all cops are bad or only highlighting the ones that screw up is akin to the grabbers saying all gun owners should be judged by the crazy shooters that make headlines. It’s not right and worse it’s unjust.
    I like this site, but I’ve been close to chucking it as another hate site, I think my discription was “stormfront lite”, when we’ve gone off on these hate filled rants.
    And what does it say about you as a person that you’ve carried a grudge against the cops that mistreated you in your youth and yet you”ll tolerate matt’s postings knowing what horrors your own family suffered at the hands of people with his thought processes.
    I personally feel that it’s time to bring this fine site, and it is a good one, onto a more even keel and with a broader appeal to more people than just the loud and lunatic fringe.
    My 2 cents worth, but if you’re allowing people to post comments about wishing a cop who was shot on the job and then posted about it here had been hurt worse I think we’ve crossed a line that will see this site degrade itself until it’s no longer relevent.

    • I’ve never seen a post like that survive RF’s keen eye. Not saying it didn’t happen, but I find it hard to believe that something that radical was allowed to stay up. I think you’re way off base when you referred to TTAG as Stormfront Lite, though. Judging from past comments sections on articles having to do with race, there are a few people who say nasty things but they’re generally taken to task by other commenters. That’s how it should be.

      In regards to cops, the problem with what you’re saying about an even keel and stuff is this: there are plenty of wholly pro-cop sites and forums that’ll blow smoke up the arses of police officers no matter what they do and there are plenty of people willing to puff that smoke. Few gun sites are critical.

      And of course not all cops are bad. They’re people like you and I. Some are good, some are bad.

      But very few that I know of that post here ever say: “Yeah, there are bad cops and we don’t like them either. They give us all a bad name. Believe me, I’m just like you and we’re in this together. There’s no need to judge every police officer based on the actions of a few.”

      That’s not how it goes, though. It seems like it’s usually just DEFEND, DEFEND, DEFEND.

      My message to police officers who post comments here is this: you’re visiting a site where a lot of people who have had bad interactions with “law enforcement” (a term I hate..it sounds so robotic and totalitarian), are suspicious and skeptical of people in your profession, and who believe that you’re the foot soldiers of politicians who come up with bad law and unconstitutional policies you are tasked with enforcing. Extend the olive branch. There are going to be people who are going to be jackasses no matter what, but whatever. You already know that and they’re easy enough to ignore.

    • you”ll tolerate matt’s postings knowing what horrors your own family suffered at the hands of people with his thought processes.

      So what did the anarchists do to the jews again?

      but if you’re allowing people to post comments about wishing a cop who was shot on the job

      The cop was shot on the job, I said I wished his assailant was a better shot. I dont see you complaining about people who post similar remarks about IGOTDs or other types of criminals. Why is it wrong that I consider the police to be the most organized group of criminals out there?

        • I’m not too familiar with historical figures, but none? The word Gulag isnt mentioned once in his wikipedia article. Do you have a URL?

          Thanks for pointing him out though, i’ll finish going thru his wikipedia page later on tonight.

      • You’re making my case for me with every post you make, matt. And you’re not just an anarchist, but a proud racist and who did that damage to the jewish people but proud racist.
        Michael B. see matt’s posting above for what he said in a previous post about wishing Ron’s assailant had been a better shot.

        • I don’t take it seriously, JWM. That kind of comment is meant to stir up people and nothing else. It has no value.

          As for Matt’s general anti-cop attitude, I agree with another poster and believe he should be given leeway because he lives in the city of Chicago. I think if you had to deal with the cops up there you’d have a different attitude too. The whole goddamn place is rotten to its core. There are also a whole lot of opportunities to have bad experiences with minorities up there.

          I’m not excusing bad behavior, possibly racist comments he’s made, and his sometimes outrageous **** but there you have it.

          When Matt’s good he’s really good. When he says ridiculous things he’s, well, ridiculous.

          It’s the internet. It’s best to have a thick skin. When he stirs up the pudding and you take a bite, he wins.

        • There are also a whole lot of opportunities to have bad experiences with minorities up there.

          Spend some time in a cook county jail as the only white guy there, and i’ll gaurentee you will all change your mind, just as I did. I wasn’t raised to think these things, they are simply the conclusions I have come to as a result of my life experience.

          And for those who will bring up ‘well you don’t like jews either’. I dont have a problem with someone simply because they are jewish, well at least no more than I do with anyone else who is religious. I just take exceptions with the ones who are pro-Israel, and whine about the holocaust. The former for obvious reasons, and the latter because everyone else who was targeted in the holocaust (or similar attoricities in WW2 and in other times) for the most part has gotten over it by now.

        • matt spending time in cook county jail as the only white man amongst all black inmates turned you into a racist? If you had spent time in the Wayne county jail in WVA you would have been in an all white population and you wouldn’t have gone racist?
          I think you’re using the jail experience as an excuse to let the real matt out. Crisis events bring out the real person. Some rise to the occasion and others reach for crutches such as racism.

        • Crisis events bring out the real person.

          CCJTDC, not cook county jail proper. I was the son of two ex-hippies and a boy scout at the time. Does that sound like the proto-typical racist upbringing to you? Spending 5 years working in public education environments only solidified my viewpoint.

          If you really don’t belive me, come here to Chicago and spend some time in county, see what its like.

        • I didn’t say anything about your parents or your upbringing matt. What i said was that at a moment of crisis the real person comes out. The real matt was always there and when the pressure was on he responded down to his nature.
          And I’ve lived a lot longer than you and never spent a night in jail. It really isn’t that hard to do.

      • Oh my.. Where to begin…

        “wish the assailant had been a better shot”, but why? So fewer innocent by standers had been wounded or killed, or because you just wanted one more member of a group you hate so much to just die and get it over with.. I’m kind of stunned at this attitude.. Granted, your family history and your own experience, but you leave no room for the fact that not everywhere is the cesspool that Chicago seems to be..

        My personal history is one of my earliest memories.. My father had just died on the living room floor of a massive coronary at age 41.. This was 1969 and I was 10. My memory is of a very tender hearted police officer (NYPD) taking about 10 or 15 minutes to explain to a very overwhelmed and confused child what was going to happen in the coming months. I remember what he told me to this day (I’m in my 50’s). I remember the huge wool coat with the double row of brass buttons, and the sound of his voice as he gently explained things to me so I wouldn’t be so lost in all of it.. Everything was done.. His job was over.. He didn’t need to do anything else… But instead, he took the time to help out a child lost in a sea of grieving adults..

        Since then I have moved to small town New Hampshire.. The police dept here used to be pretty bad.. Lots of unfortunate incidents.. But, they have since turned that around. I lived next door to one of the motor patrol officers. He is one he’ll of a nice guy and to my knowledge has never been the jack booted thug you assume all police to be.

        So, all this just to say that yes, your experience and that of your ancestors has led you to this point. I get that it’s a struggle to see police as anything but the modern version of the oppressors you see behind every badge. My experience leaves me open to being blind sided by a bad cop, and I have to be aware of that.. Do you think you can find room to understand that not all cops are bad? To understand that police officers are a large group of people, and that in just about any large group of people there will be good ones and bad ones.. There are cops who when they sought out putting on a badge, they truly wanted to serve, and protect.. Just as there have been those who wanted nothing more than to bully and harass groups they didn’t like. Some sought out to do that with a badge, others, use a pen…

        • This is what I get for posting this reply from an iPad where the combination of the spell checker being out to get me, and the inability to go back and review what I wrote before posting caused some of the glaring errors in that post.. Sorry about that.. I will know better for next time..

          One thing I did neglect to add.. I have no problem hearing about the errors made by police. They are people and are going to make them. When it’s available, how about balancing it with the good stuff about police too. And don’t jump on a story just because a cop made a mistake. There are a few other things going on in our firearms community…..

        • because you just wanted one more member of a group you hate so much to just die and get it over with.. I’m kind of stunned at this attitude..

          Spend some time in jail, and i’m confident you’ll change your opinion., or get your car seized, or have to pay a criminal defense attorney. I’ve paid more in fines for my 1999 Jeep Cherokee than I did to buy it.

          My personal history is one of my earliest memories.. My father had just died on the living room floor of a massive coronary at age 41.. This was 1969 and I was 10. My memory is of a very tender hearted police officer (NYPD)

          Of course you remember him that way, because he was your father, try asking the people he arrested what they thought of him.

          Since then I have moved to small town New Hampshire.. The police dept here used to be pretty bad.. Lots of unfortunate incidents.. But, they have since turned that around.

          Did any of those cops involved in the “unfortunate incidents” ever go to jail like us civilians, or were they simply fired?

          Do you think you can find room to understand that not all cops are bad?

          The problem isnt just one bad cop, even the good ones will willingly feed the prision industrial complex, and rob the average joe of hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars in fines, legal fees, and civil asset forfeitures. Because it is their job to blindly follow the orders of politicians.

    • “Yes, I think we need a balance of good and bad. Saying all cops are bad or only highlighting the ones that screw up is akin to the grabbers saying all gun owners should be judged by the crazy shooters that make headlines. It’s not right and worse it’s unjust.”

      Good post jwm.

      +1

  7. Police officers are people, hired from the general population and as such have the same character flaws, ability to make mistakes, and tendancies to make errors of judgement. To suggest otherwise or think that because I pinned on a badge I will suddenly never make a mistake is foolish. I have no problem with incompetence being pointed out, but to limit that to police officers is unfair. Just from reading many of the comments posted this site I’ve observed more than a few people who seem to have questionable judgement and a general lack of knowledge about firearms. Does this mean they are evil or stupid? No. It means they are human.

    The one thing I’ve found most disturbing in my short while at this site is that post calling an extremely rude and obnoxious person a “troll” we’re deleted and the posters admonished, however when this same person stated that he wished that I had no survived a shooting his post was allowed to remain. Calling someone a troll is off limits, but wishing someone dead isn’t? Or was it just ok because I’m a cop? I have been far more respectful than many other posters, especially the ones who have been extremely disrespectful to me. It has nothing to do with being a cop. I was raised to be polite and respectful. I think I hardly fit your stereotype of a power hungry, arrogant, oppressive, thuggish tool of the state. I’m a guy who likes firearms, just like the rest of you. I’ve tried to contribute in a positive way here, but if I’m not welcome here, I’ll find someplace else to do it. and the only reason I ever identified myself as a cop was to describe the post defensive shooting processes I’ve been involved in. I’m feeling that may have been a mistake. I’m sorry that many of you have had negative experiences with cops. I’ve had many negative experiences with regular folks, and I’m sure you have as well. How about addressing dumbass behavior on an individual basis instead of blaming an entire group.

    • Ron, with perhaps a few exceptions, you are welcome here. Your perspective and insights are certainly welcome and valued. I’m sure you’ve had LOTS of negative experiences with folks, it sort of comes with the job. Those officers who maintain their civility and respect in the face of the kind of interactions you have with the public are to be commended. Thank you for your service.

      All of the above said, there remains a need to shine a light on the problems – sometimes problem individuals (police or citizens) and sometimes problem organizations (governments, departments).

      One of the things I like about this site is that it’s not just about guns, but also all the issues that surround guns.

    • I am with Ron. 18 years as a LEO myself and I remain on this site because I understand the frustration people have with police. I get it, people see the abuse and read the stories ( in the liberal, anti-police media) and they think all cops are bad and at best, a necessary evil. They see what appears to be the wagons circling around a bad cops deed but they don’t see it from our perspective. It’s hard to get rid of the bad cops. There are laws, labor rules, lawyers and procedures. In my organization we simply cannot get rid of the bad ones. They get a lawyer, who finds a precedent, loophole, misstep in the investigation and viola, they get reinstated. We have a who slew of them who are Giglio risks and can’t even be used in a court room. In addition, thers the whole other side where someone has a bad day and now they’re a bad cop. The cops previous 10 years of unfailing service are wiped out when he loses it with a punk who managed to get under his skin. He was having a bad day and it doesn’t matter that his wife is leaving/cheating on him (because of his previous 10 years of nights, weekends, missing holidays, anniversaries, etc) and his kid is failing school. Cops aren’t supposed to be humanized, only vilified. No one, especially here, seeks to understand the whole situation. Only to judge police as bad. Because its easier if what you think you hate is not seen as human. We take pur previous experiences and over time, take them out of context. We like being the victim and its eaier to hate than forgive, or understand That’s what we do to our enemies (think WW2 and the Japanese). So it make them happy when cops are hurt.

      That’s ok, because most cops get it too. They know they’re hated. Many of them hate right back, and they abuse thier authority, demean, belittle right back. Nice little vicious circle , that’s celebrated on sites like this.

      The reality is, and they don’t want to see it that way, is most cops don’t ask for ask for anything other than their pay. For the most part, and I believe most cops are good, they are the sheepdogs. They are not the only sheepdogs out there, they are just the ones who don’t know of any other way to make a living. I know myself, I would not be able to do anything else right now. That’s why so many military member join the police. Because when they can guard the sheep in the military, they have to do it someplace, like the police, cause that’s all they know.

      I am with you Ron. Don’t leave just yet, it’s sites like these that give us greater understanding of both sides. We can learn a lot, even if there are those who won’t take advantage of the opportunity. There’s always two sides and when you spend your life trying to get at the truth, you need to listen (read in this case) to what’s said here in order to get at it.

      • It’s hard to get rid of the bad cops. There are laws, labor rules, lawyers and procedures. In my organization we simply cannot get rid of the bad ones.

        Instead of firing them try arresting or fineing them, to force them out. Don’t most cop cars have GPS by now? Wouldn’t it be easy to tell when they are speeding while not on a call?

        In addition, thers the whole other side where someone has a bad day and now they’re a bad cop. The cops previous 10 years of unfailing service are wiped out when he loses it with a punk who managed to get under his skin.

        Just like any other profession. If I let a irate customer or annoying coworker get under my skin, and I hit them, or start yelling at them, chances are i’ll be fired too.

        He was having a bad day and it doesn’t matter that his wife is leaving/cheating on him (because of his previous 10 years of nights, weekends, missing holidays, anniversaries, etc) and his kid is failing school.

        Just like everyone else. Overtime isnt limited to LEOs, i’ve had plenty of after midnight (IT) jobs to perform when i’m a 1st shift employee. Divorce rates in this country exceed 50%, and there are tons of kids failing school.

        No one, especially here, seeks to understand the whole situation. Only to judge police as bad. Because its easier if what you think you hate is not seen as human.

        I see you as human, I also see you as being naive. It is your job to feed the prision industrial complex. Go spend some time (more than a night) as a prisioner and tell me your opinion of it. It is also your job to rob people blind with fines, legal costs and civil asset forfeitures.

        Nice little vicious circle , that’s celebrated on sites like this.

        Accelerating the inevitiable.

        The reality is, and they don’t want to see it that way, is most cops don’t ask for ask for anything other than their pay.

        I agree, because they can’t find a higher paying job, or one with better job security in the private sector.

        I am with you Ron. Don’t leave just yet

        I’m not trying to run either of you off the site.

        • Interesting, you provide no contex for your answers. So I am assuming you’ve also made some bad choices that led to all your fines, arrests, imprisonments. Do bad things happen to good people? Do bad cops sometimes perpatrate those bad things? Sure they do. Some people also make bad choices and bring the cops to them as well. Most cops agree, there are way too many laws on the books. We’re told to enforce them all. And that’s impossible. Instead of hating the cops so much, why don’t you do your part and either follow those laws, or get them changed. We are a main of laws and until that changes, nothing will.

          I seriously doubt you’ve ever been to a real police state. Until you spent a few days in one of those, you’ll never understand how good we have it here.

        • Interesting, you provide no contex for your answers.

          Such as what specifically? I didnt provide answers, because you didnt ask me any questions, I for the most part pointed out that all these problems which effect police officers, such as divorce or professionalism in the workplace, effect everyone else too.

          Instead of hating the cops so much, why don’t you do your part and either follow those laws, or get them changed.

          I’m a anarchist, we belive that participating in the political process only provides legitamacy to it.

          I seriously doubt you’ve ever been to a real police state. Until you spent a few days in one of those, you’ll never understand how good we have it here.

          It is all ready here, when I was 15, shortly after the incident at Columbine HS, I had a cook county assistant states attorney ask a judge that I be incarcerated indefinetly because I wore a black trench coat. The police in their investigation supposedly found 30 eye witnesses who claimed I had a hit list, or had made threats, or whatnot. And there was even a court ordered psych eval which stated I was a immienent threat to myself and society because they claimed I was engaging in sexual relations with my mother. After reviewing the evidence the judge said he expected as much, and denied the gov’t request. If indefinete detention because of your dress isnt a police state, what is? Would I actually have to had gone to jail again to meet your definition?

          Now we have members of the government such as Eric “My People” Holder saying that due processes does not mean judicial process. Obama engaging in extra-judicial executions of American citizens. The NSA reading all of our online corespondence. The police state is all ready here, it is just a softer version of what took place in the past.

        • Well matt you obviously don’t know what a police state is. In a police state you would have gone for the indifinate detention and would not have appeared in front of a judge. All the decisions would have been made behind closed doors and you would have dissappeared into the system or into an unmarked hole in the ground.
          The fact that this site is allowed to run adds proof that we don’t live in a police state.

        • In a police state you would have gone for the indifinate detention and would not have appeared in front of a judge.

          Did you read what I said? When Eric Holder stated that due process does not mean judicial process? He is our attorney general ya know.

  8. The police are Our Gang’s enforcers. The fact that most cops are virtuous, honorable men and women is immaterial. Police are trained and sanctioned to perform very specific and limited violence on behalf of society. I give all cops the benefit of the doubt because of their desire and willingness perform aggression on behalf of the good guys. It is an honorable job, but it is an ugly job, and necessary. Because of this special position, it is not wrong to hold the police to a higher standard of conduct. Because humans (and police) are fallible, it is extremely important that the state does not gain achieve a monopoly on dispensing violence. Most Americans understand this, and so should every-single-one of our enforcers, especially those responsible for creating policy.

    • I give all cops the benefit of the doubt because of their desire and willingness perform aggression on behalf of the good guys

      lol wut? So you give people the benefit of the doubt because they are violent against people who the politicians don’t like? You do know that they politicians get to define who is “good” right?

      • Lol, yes, really. If you finished reading the next paragraph, you’d probably gather that I’m no friend of the state, either. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt is not the same as excusing police misconduct or sanctioning a double standard.

        You do know that we are the ones who elect the idiot politicians who write the terrible laws which the cops are sworn to uphold, right? 
        Maybe the cops are not the machine you should rage against, Matt. 

        Back to the adults in the room:
        Police misconduct is primarily a symptom of the bad laws which they are supposed to enforce. The war on drugs is by far the worst, but there are others.

        • Police misconduct is primarily a symptom of the bad laws which they are supposed to enforce.

          No. Typical police conduct is when they enforce “bad” laws. Misconduct is when they violate the same laws they apply to us.

  9. And it would be a lot easier to support the police in General if the so called good cops didnt cover or turn the other way for the “bad cops”. I grew up in NYC and am the son of a retired NYPD cop of 23 years, I had a chance to see the police from several perspectives, but I tell you anyone that can blow my head off at a unwarranted traffic stop and get away scott free, wtih it well lets just say that that much power in a so called servant of the peoples hands leaves me a bit unsettled. The fact that police routinely trample on peoples rights leaves me unsettled, even if it is a just a few the others allow it. So do I respect the challenges of wearing the uniform yes, do I respect police in General, well not so much. Sort of like another people on the planet that want to do us harm, a relatively small amount fall into that category, but there are a lot more that know who they are and wiill not stand up to them.

    • Yes! When police (and/or their unions) defend obvious lawbreaking, unprofessional behavior and other such activities, they call the integrity, honesty and professionalism of all police into question. Stop defending the lawbreakers amongst you. Dump the “professional consideration”when a cop is caught driving drunk. Respect is a two way street. When you stop considering every non-cop a perp that just hasn’t been caught yet, maybe attitudes will change. I fear no-knock raids at wrong addresses. I know in that case, my dog will die. I may too. And one of you, will get away scott free. Too many police do not investigate when they get tips from informaers. There are stories across the country that describe just that scenario. If the homeowner is lucky, he is just stuck with repairs to his home that the police will do their damn best to prevent them from repairing the damage they caused.

      Respect is two way people. When the police start respecting the population, they will get the respect they crave.

  10. I like the idea of sharing stories of police errors to help “keep them honest.” I think you’d agree that most to all police related stories posted are negative, and you admit bias. I’m sure there’s some stories out there of police officers making wise decisions in the use, or restraint, of a firearm. Perhaps some of those stories deserve some attention?

    • +10

      I was going to say something very close to this, but he said it already.

      “Fair AND BALANCED”. Right now your reporting on LEOs is mostly fair, but definitely not balanced.

      Keep doing the negative police stories, but maybe not some of the ones where the cop seemed to have the right attitude but made a bad decision under pressure. Everyone makes mistakes under pressure. If you do report a ‘mistake under pressure’ story, then tone down the criticism, and talk more about what the correct decision should have been and how we can avoid making the same mistake.

      Give us a few more stories about LEOs that did good things. For example, tell us about the one who rushed into a dangerous situation to save others, when he could have safely hung back. During the Sikh temple shooting, an officer ran into the hot zone and was killed by the shooter. He risked his own life to save others, but unfortunately the shooter was ready for him. He did get off a few shots, and probably saved the lives of a few people inside the temple. This cop was a hero, but no one said that.

    • Actually, what makes an individual officer or department exceptionally good is often as interesting and valuable to know as the things that make an individual officer or department exceptionally bad.

      Both are excellent fodder for great content.

  11. Robert, keep up the great work and thank you.

    Most of my personal interactions with police officers have been positive and I appreciate them. Yet, there are the bad ones too that abuse their power, disregard the Bill of Rights and other laws, and would enthusiastically serve an iron-fisted police totalitarian state. The police institutions themselves are often used worldwide in a highly unethical manner.

    In America, it used to be in theory at least that the media served as the watch-dog (and was I believe called the Fourth Estate) to observe, monitor, and alert the people to abuses of power by government. In the modern era, much of the big mass media and others serve mostly as a government propaganda piece focusing their daily stories on select soap-opera events to keep the sheeple dumb and ignorant. I’m against the use of the media as a government propaganda tool. This site might not give a 50/50 fair shake to the police yet overall I support this site to be the role of critical watch-dog rather than being just another obedient sheep.

    Now, is that pic above of a real female cop or is she another hot actress? Seriously Robert, inquiring minds want to know more about her.

    Hey, what happened to the pic of the lady with the AR platform?

  12. Perhaps “fair and balanced” isn’t really an issue. If ANYONE does something stupid with a gun (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57512817/police-wash-man-pointed-gun-at-woman-for-smoking-while-pregnant/), you point it out. If the foolish act is committed by a concealed carry holder, instructor, or cop, the infraction seems much worse.
    On the flip side, when someone uses a gun with skill and saves lives, you point that out. When the “hero” happens to be elderly or very young, it’s even more impressive.

  13. Ill just state for the record that Law Enforcement, and the morals of its members, depends entirely on the area they’re walking the beat at.

    I used to think as Robert Farago did on the topic of being opposed to cops.Growing up in Chicago, it seemed to me that all the Chicago Police did was write money-generating tickets for BS like parking, tint violations, and curb laws while open air drug markets operated with impunity. The CPD could drive right by an open drug dealing pit, but if you dared have front window tint on your vehicle, look out. 911 in Chicago is a criminal assistance hotline, not a call for law and order. I realized that one day as I determined logically that being burglarized would be cheaper than paying $100 a week in bullshit parking and traffic citations, all going to a city government which is so jacked up even if I dialed 911 it would take the cops 20 minutes to respond if I were lucky.

    Suburban Illinois cops weren’t much better. The idea of civil rights just doesn’t exist up there, and police fishing expeditions are a common occurrence.The literal words of an officer who stopped me going the speed limit on my way to work: “I noticed your tailights were dim, so can you provide you license, registration, and proof of insurance?”

    Due to all this background, as far as I was concerned Law Enforcement was a racket. Just another gang , except on the public payroll to be used as the corrupt political system say fit.

    That changed when I moved out of the Warsaw Pact. Being posted in South Dakota, I got stopped once for a legitimate traffic violation. The SD state trooper, instead of coming to my window dripping with arrogant disdain , treated me with down to earth respect. When I told him I was legally armed he didn’t freak out, drag me to the pavement, and call for SWAT backup while his partner called the drug dog.He just asked that I kindly leave the piece holstered and he’d be right back.

    Once he came back to my window I was stunned when he asked me a question:I carried an M&P right?

    “Oh god, here it comes” I thought.Thoughts of a night in prison and bail money went through my head.

    Just , if he didn’t mind me saying, how did I like the M&P9 pistol?

    It seemed he was gun shopping for his wife, and needed advice on whether or not all the good things he heard were true about it.

    Once I recovered my composure ,we had a healthy conversation about Glock vs M&P on the side of the highway. I have a whole new regard for LE with that background, and i’ve had experiences with other police in this state to know that what happened wasn’t a fluke. Unlike in crooked, Democrat run liberal experiments most police actually do uphold the law and the Constitution for most of right-thinking America , although I had to see it to believe it. The difference is so stark its like comparing a U.S. Marine to a mob hitman.

    One serves the higher creed of defending his nation and its way of life. One kills and fights for the ambitions of his criminal overlord, and police fall roughly into both categories in America. I forgive the posters who have only seen the hitman, and think all cops are thugs.I merely ask that they consider the fact that there are honorable members of LE in the mix as well, as much like the quiet Marine guarding his post we’ll never hear about their good deeds of quiet & honorable service to their communities

    -ST

  14. Let me start by saying I was a Police Officer for 8 years, I have seen selfless individual cops and I have seen selfish cops. I have no problem with the site pointing out the misdeeds, or stupid deeds of police officers. If they did it and it was wrong they should be called on it.

    My only problem comes from the bias I see about all cops, not so much from the articles but from so many of the comments posted after the articles. My problem is that so many people do what they get mad at the anti crowd for doing, painting with a broad brush.

    From many of the posts you would think that ALL police officers are corrupt, or a person would only become a police officer because they want to be a jackbooted thug. That might be true for some, but certainly not all and you know I have only met two or three personally and I have met hundreds of officers.

    I have attended funerals of friends I served with that died trying to save lives and serve those who for the most part fear and hate them.

    I was also a Marine, I love the Marine Corps, but you know there are bad Marines too, and when they go bad often people die, but is the Marine Corps bad because of those individuals? Of coures not and neither are the Police forces in this country.

    I would put out one challenge to anyone who truly thinks all cops are corrupt, become one! First you can make a difference, and second you might actually find out you were mistaken in the first place. And if you see an officer abuing his power get him fired, most cops hate a bad cop as much or more than most of you.

    • PIMarine,
      it’s been my experience that bad management is the cause of most trouble in a workplace. Can you talk about some of the problems that come from higher management among the police? The tension between keeping the peace and bad legislation would be an example of this; state lawmakers pass bad laws and charge the police with enforcing them without regard for the reality on the street. Budget cuts or wasteful spending would be another example.

      • I worked for a good Sheriff so management wasn’t my problem, however, bad laws and laws that didn’t exist were the problem and what people thought we should do but couldn’t.

        One reason I was a cop for only 8 years is because I tried to save my marriage, which didn’t work out either. But even my wife couldn’t understand the law. One night I responded to a fight at a bar, which was over when I got there, one group claimed the other started it and of course the other group claimed the others started it. I had to tell both of them that they would have to sign warrents because I didn’t see what happened, well neighter group liked that, because it was obvious to them what I should do. One group was friends with my wife, who later told me I should have arrested the other group. My point is that citizens often don’t understand the position the officer is in, so when he doesn’t act the way they think he should they think he is being a jerk or worse.

        This was in the late 70’s and early 80’s before mandatory domestic violence laws, if I didn’t see the asault I couldn’t arrest for it, but I admit being a jackbooted thug a couple of times and telling a husband that if I had to return he would resist arrest. I am not proud of that, but I did it because I was trying to make a difference in one person’s life. I am glad those laws are out there now, but there are times when they cause people to go to jail that really shouldn’t but the officer has no wiggle room.

        Many laws are down right stupid, but as an officer you have to follow them, even if the public doesn’t like it or understand it.

        • Have you ever used your discretion to ignore minor things that people have done that didn’t really harm anyone?

        • Right. you’ve brought up another point I wanted to make: that the police, in addition to being the Thin Blue Line and all that, also walk the boarder between order and chaos. Domestic abuse, DUI , etc are all a disruption of lawful order. Chaos. You’re there to confront it and contain it, and in so doing you are putting yourself in some pretty dicey situations. It’s no wonder, therefore, that some cops might get touchy, or simply make mistakes.

    • Most of the Cops I have had personal contact with, and as a former EMT, I worked with a lot, have been professional and polite. The few that have not have seemed to come from departments that have a “culture” of arrogance and abuse of power. It also seemed the departments involved were the ones supping the most at the central government’s trough The same attitudes have also permeated the municipality they served, whether town, city, or county. I personally have never ran into a state trooper that wasn’t fully professional, and I think that reflects on the states I was in at the time

  15. I wouldn’t categorize myself as anti-LE; in fact, I have many friends who are in LE. However; I agree with some of what Robert said.

    I served in Bosnia (former Yugoslavia) in 1995 and Iraq in 2004. Both were former police states. Police forces, like military forces, are trained and conditioned to respond affirmatively to authority. In fact, one of the things that makes the US military unique in my experience is that we actually train our soldiers to refuse to obey an illegal order, regardless of it’s source. I do not know if all LEOs receive the same kind of training.

    As a soldier who operated under severely restrictive ROE, I have no-zero-zip sympathy for LE arguments that gun control/disarmament of the civilian population is necessary for officer safety. In Iraq, each household was allowed to keep an AK-47 (full auto) for personal protection. This was from practical necessity, since the entire police force and government had been loyal to Saddam and had to be replaced. Would it have made it safer for me and my guys if those civilians had been disarmed? Absolutely. Would it have made those civilians helpless victims for every two-bit thug and terrorists? Again, absolutely.

    Your job, whether you are in the military or LE, is to assume risk so that the civilian population doesn’t have to.

    If you can’t deal with that, you need to choose a different profession.

    The reality is, police organizations (and the military) are composed of people with a sense of mission. They’re generally good guys. But, they also have been trained to obey direction from the government, and therein lies the problem. If the government becomes unethical, that direction becomes unethical. And you wing up with Germany in 1936 or Venezuela today.

    One more thing, I know everyone wants to say, “It can’t happen here.” It absolutely can. Historically, it has happened over and over again. The public has to have the ability to exercise control over government, and through government law enforcement agencies, or tyranny is the inevitable result.

    In the United States today, there is more than sufficient evidence that control is slipping.

    Regards,
    DJ

  17. I am decidedly anti-cop, for a multitude of reasons:

    First – Law enforcement in this country is not so much about keeping the violent criminals away from the solid citizens. It is about enforcing abhorrent/anti-freedom moralities upon the citizens (i.e. drug laws) and collecting revenue (infraction and traffic enforcement). When it comes to actual criminals, the positive effects of law enforcement are eviscerated with catch-n-release courts. Ever notice that the vast majority of violent criminals have massive criminal records? Why does law enforcement let these animals roam the streets?

    Second– Cops are stunning narcissists. On one hand, they want respect for doing a “dangerous” job (one that doesn’t even hit the top 10 most deadly jobs in America). They expect paychecks well above regional standard wages, gold plated health care, fat pensions and strong, union written, contractual support in firing and employment. At the same time, their thuggish nature (covered up with the delicate phrase “Officer Safety”) insures that they will happily wound/beat citizens at the drop of a hat if the tactical situation might possibly stack a point or two against them.

    Call for help because someone is breaking into your home? Never forget, it isn’t the first officer on the scene who is gonna rush to help you… nope, you need to wait for 3 or 4 cops to show up. If your getting killed/raped, tough titty… Officer safety dictates multiple cover cars show up before anyone comes to help.

    Third– A nearly complete lack of accountability. When it suits the police, they are happy to tell you how tough this job is, how special they are to have volunteered for it and how they need to be treated with respect. When the foul-ups happen though, the thin blue line makes it obvious that these guys are held to a MUCH lower standard. The examples of this are too numerous to count. Again, they expect all the benefits of being Super Citizens held to a higher standard, but that standard is rarely, if ever, applied.

  18. Re: The “Thin Blue Line”. All I have to say is if all agencies operated with honor,transparency and accountability, you wouldn’t need the thin blue line because the entire general public would have your back.

    • Exactly.. Even if the percentage of thug cops is small, the percentage of ‘good’ cops that are willing to cover for them is large enough to color citizens’ views of all of them. Silence is consent, and if you remain silent about abusive behavior you’re an accessory to it.

  19. I’m not anti-cop (as I’m employed in the LE field I’de hate to hate myself) and don’t believe TTAG is either.

  20. I’m fine with the site’s reporting in regards to police. I think the notion of “protect and serve” is mostly a historical relic and now it’s about power and force. While surely the minority, there are enough officers willing to treat people any way they please if they think they can get away with it, and they know that unless something is so over the top, even the good guys will circle the wagons and defend them. In a field with so much power, I wish the good guys had a little less tolerance for the bad apples. It’d go a long ways towards calming down anti cop sentiment if the general public felt like police departments actually policed themselves….. I don’t feel as if they do nearly enough.

  21. Just as there are good and bad gun owners, there are good and bad cops. Just as the grabbers like to harp on the IGOTDs and ignore the DGUs, TTAG sometimes harps on the bad cops and ignores the good, and for the same reason. One “oh shit” erases every “addaboy”. Everytime an asshole with a badge goes on a power trip, it causes us to ignore the quiet professionals that are trying to make a difference, and we vilify them all. I’m close friends with lots of cops, and none of them are the monsters that they are portrayed as. Just as we are all law abiding gun owners, and not the derrainged sociopaths the Brady Bunch portrays us to be after high profile events. They are guilty of it. We are guilty of it. The fact that I’ve used the words “grabbers” and “Brady Bunch” means I’m guilty of it. If I were king of the Internet I’d want the anti-cop talk tempered a bit. But I’m not. This is RF’s blog. He can post whatever he wants to. He invites all of us to contribute to the conversation, and I can if I want to. Or not. If I disagree and can contribute, I do. Or not. Or I can move on and wait for the next Ask Foghorn article.

  22. Respect is earned. You don’t get it simply because you decided to become a cop.

    Now, I know many police officers who have my respect, from those I’ve known for years and consider very good friends, to those who pull me over for a traffic infraction and act like honest, professional, ethical individuals doing a job that, at times, can suck quite a bit. To that end were I in a situation where I witnessed a cop being attacked by some nutjob and generally in a bad way as a result, I’d step in and help out to whatever degree I could, even though I’d be putting myself at significant risk in doing so. That’s respect.

    The “other” cops, however– those who look down their nose at us mere “civilians”; who tool up like they’re about to be dropped behind the wire somewhere; who gleefully enforce the minutia of largely useless law– not because it’s their job, but because they enjoy it; who spray and pray when the adrenaline starts flowing because they couldn’t be bothered to train to a higher standard: Those cops get zero respect. They’ve earned it.

    Is that an anti-cop bias? I suppose it depends whether you’re an upstanding person who happens to be a cop, or a douchebag with a badge and underdeveloped wedding vegetation.

  23. I respect LEOs who follow the oath they took to uphold the Constitution. I understand they are human beings who just want to come home from their shifts alive. I also understand that there are plenty out there who support our rights as much as we do and who are loved by their communities in return.

    What I do not tolerate under any circumstances are the ones who knowingly and illegally assault and intimidate civilains with an “us vs. them” mentality. What pisses me off most is the fact that cops never seem to get punished, especially in urban areas. Even if they do, it’s nowhere near proportional to the punishment for a crime committed by any civilian.

    No more of this “suspension without pay” or “additional training.” If a no-knock raid which shouldn’t have been implemented in the first place results in damage and harm to the WRONG FUCKING HOUSE and family, those responsible should be tried and charged as criminals under the law. There are a slew of other examples I could give, but the bottom line is that “qualified immunity” is one of the biggest piles of horse shit on earth. With the end of it, the majority of “us vs. them” types will think twice about going on a power trip.

  24. I of course think TTAG has been presenting an obvious anti-cop slant. I too am outraged by most all of the very articles posted here, that point to police incompetence, misjudgment and thuggery. I will repeat myself and again insist that I’m no cop/badge hugger. I do not however take kindly to the black/white attitude or general negative bias against cops from a site that claims it aspires to present an honest position as well as explore ethics & morality. As JWM put it, there needs to be a balance…saying that you explore ethics and morality calls out a responsibility to present both sides. When it comes to cops, this site only explores one side of the coin.

    IMO, there should be a balance, when you consider this site seems to be trying to promote support for gun ownership. Are you supporting that mission, by cop bashing? IMO that only serves to make more cops dislike (or not care to support) citizen gun owners from this site…and I happen to be one of them. As JWM again put it so well/succinctly, “only highlighting the ones that screw up is akin to the grabbers saying all gun owners should be judged by the crazy shooters that make headlines.”

    IMO, we all have a responsibility to not judge our fellow man (who happen to be cops) as all bad. From not only an ethical and moral standpoint, but from a common sense standpoint in support of our gun rights. IMO, we need law enforcement to be supportive of us. What this site has been promoting spits in the face of that IMO.

    I appreciate much of what this site has to offer and think it could be even more effective in the perceived underlying mission, by being more fair to the men and women in law enforcement. There are good people there folks. Just like everything else, you will see what you want to see. If all you want to see are the bad apples, that’s all you’ll focus on…and that’s what you’ll get. The owners/editors/writers of this site should be more mature and responsible than that IMO.

    • I think the question is how often is a cop doing their job a newsworthy story? Now how often is a cop screwing up at their job a newsworthy story? Exactly.

      Could TTAG make an attempt to try to post more positive stories about cops? Maybe. Do they need to go to that effort? I dont think so. If a cop does an outstandingly good job, it will be a big story in the news, and will most likely get reported here.

      RF-no need to sugar coat stories here. Continue to call ’em like you see them.

    • So are you saying they should spend more time higlighting cops doing there jobs? No body gives me accolades for doing my job, but let me mess up and I guarrantee it will be addressed.

      Cops are no different! In addition Cops a lot of cops make the mistake of thinking they have some sort of lordship over us citizens. I dont need their support, they work for me, what I need is there obedience to the law.

    • I too am outraged by most all of the very articles posted here, that point to police incompetence, misjudgment and thuggery.

      @MotoJB, I’m amused that you’re outraged by the articles, but not by the incompetence, misjudgment and thuggery that inspired the articles.

    • So you’re saying we should laud the police for doing what they’re supposed to be doing…

      And that we should stop calling them on their incompetence and thuggery so as to further our mission by appeasement to oppression?

      Um…no. Any cop who goes against gun owners because we dare call them on their thuggery isn’t worth the consideration in the first place.

  28. Most cops most of the time are the good guys. It’s the few with questionable ethics and skills who make the headlines. Some cops should not have a badge.

    Case in point a Denver Policeman pulled his gun on a clerk at MacDonald’s because his order took to long (off duty). Approx one year later he got a ticket for DUI and a ticket for 143 miles an hour (DUI at 143 miles per hour). Denver fired him and the Civil Service just reinstated him. No kidding!
    Some Police Departments have obstacles like Unions and Civil Service Commissions, and their hands are tied.

    As for this blog we bash police some of the time. Some of the time they need bashed.

    Overall I give police high marks.

  29. I don’t know, I think people (not necessarily TTAG) are a little one-sided about police incompetence. They are people too, so there are going to be as many morons as there would be in any sample of non-LEO citizens. No one should be surprised when police mess up, or for that matter, when anyone messes up. People are stupid, and there will always be a portion of every population that makes terrible decisions.

    • Compare what you are describing here to any other profession where a “screw up” costs lives. As a physician anesthesiologist, if I screw up, my patient suffers potentially irreversible injury or death. Should that happen I will be held accountable professionally, financially, and potentially criminally. Good thing I practice and rehearse and perfect what I do so that screw ups don’t happen on my watch. I’d like to see LEOs held to a standard even 1% as rigid as other critical professions. By comparison, cops have zero accountability and maximal plausible deniability…..the union makes sure of this.

  30. I don’t think TTAG is necessarily anti-cop in its editorial stance. It’s anti-bad-cop. As several above have noted, keeping them honest is not a bad thing. On the other hand, many of the commenters are vehemently, antagonistically, irrationally anti-cop, and they have loud and frequent voices. As one example (and there are many to be had), I offer the repeated-often-enough-I-don’t-need-to-look-for-it statement that “all cops are statist jackbooted thugs on power trips, and as they are the enforcers of the illegitimate government’s unconstitutional decrees, they are lower than the scum on the bottom of a pile of crap at the bottom of a mud puddle and are not only not deserving of my respect, but are the rightful recipients of my outright scorn and they’re lucky I don’t shoot them on sight.” I’m paraphrasing and combining things I’ve read, of course, but nothing I just wrote will be unfamiliar to anyone who’s been here more than six or eight weeks.

    So yeah, the overarching feeling is that general attitude here is profoundly anti-cop, but that’s due to the loud and angry commenters, not the editorial decisions. Furthermore, unless you start editing comments for content (which is a bad idea), the only thing you can do to mitigate that general attitude is to ensure that the articles you do publish, even if negative, are factual and not “tabloidish.” If you can find some solid examples of cops doing good, that’s great and all, but, and this is important, that’s not what this blog is (theoretically) about. Honestly, on that point, even some of the “bad cop” stories are a little far afield of the thrust of this blog. As an example, the post “Garland TX Cop Fires 41 Rounds At Fleeing Felon” is an example of both the “tabloidish” side of things (because it’s thin on details and thick on sensationalism) and an example of where I can’t find a real strong relationship between the subject matter and “explor[ing] the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.”

      • You think the Tabloidish headlines are rough here; you weren’t around his old site when he proclaimed the Subaru B9 Tribeca looked like a vagina.

        • The headline didn’t say anything about the Tribeca’s quim-like grill. That was in the body copy. Click here to read it, although you’d be giving page views to the company that treated me in a less than honorable fashion.

    • @Matt in FL, I don’t think that the “bad cops” stories are any more far afield that IGOTD stories. If the IGOTD “winners” didn’t screw up with their firearms, they wouldn’t be covered here. If cops were unarmed, the same would apply. It’s the firearms that empower the bad cops to do bad things, so these stories relate directly to firearms ethics.

      • Ralph: You’re right, as usual, but that’s why I emphasized “some of” the bad cop stories are a little far afield. If a story highlights gun law hypocrisy or just poor weapon handling, then that’s probably gun related, but if it’s simply a story about LEO malfeasance that only involves firearms because they happen to carry one (and there have been a couple), those are the kind of stories I’m referring to. My example of the “Garland cop-41 shots” story is right on the line. Because there were very few why & how details attached to the initial article, even with the 41 shots fired it’s still more of an “interesting (or bad) cop story” than a “gun story.” If it turns out there was wrongdoing, t’s not the gun’s fault it was fired 41 times, it’s the officer’s, which again makes it not really a gun story.

    • I’ve been reading TTAG for a little over a couple months now and the comments are typically spread out between the:

      1) Gun fanatics (typically a little too redneck or rambo to be taken seriously)

      2) Anti-gun fanatics (they hurt their arguments most of the time with political jargon and fancy speak that isn’t based on common sense)

      3) Pro-Self Defense crowd (so far the most reasonable bunch)

      4) Anti-Self Defense crowd (ie. the “idiots” — sorry, there hasn’t been an argument made against the right to self-defense that hasn’t been completely based on fantasy…)

      5) Internet Patriots (the people that exclaim “This is America” in response to any argument that’s decidedly not about America…)

      6) The Rebel Children (you know, the anti-government, anti-police, anti-authority types that bitch and moan about anyone or anything that even smells like authority, because God forbid, someone brings up a valid point about something pertaining to their Rights that, gasp, the Founding Fathers never could have accounted for in their time)

      7) The Trolls (these are just the people that go on TTAG and incite arguments without any care for the outcome, they just want to watch the flames)

      The vocal minority usually are the loudest. The whole “cop hate” issue is completely subjective. And honestly, the only people that should really weigh in are the officers in blue.

      • I would say TTAG is highly critical of any law enforcement officer’s actions that fall outside the standard of “reasonable, prudent, and necessary action”.

        “Anti-cop” means you’re against the police, which TTAG obviously isn’t.

      • And honestly, the only people that should really weigh in are the officers in blue.

        The only people who should weigh in on people’s reaction to police misconduct are those who are associated with the ones causing it?

        Now there’s some “logic” you don’t see every day.

        • Might want to re-read the topic title, the question being asked is: Is TTAG Anti-Cop?

          Does it read “Anti-Police Misconduct”? No.

          It’s two separate issues.

          Yes, articles and news stories highlighting possible police misconduct are what sometimes appear on TTAG. That or situations that get a lot of scrutiny by a bunch of forum posters that weren’t there (really how useful is that anyway). But that doesn’t necessarily make TTAG “anti-cop”.

          “Anti-cop”, by definition, proclaims that you’re flat out against cops, period. Regardless if they’re doing good deeds or bad.

        • Grr, there really needs to be a way to delete messages after the post-timer runs out…

          Anyway, I had a better reply:

          The articles on TTAG that are police-related tend to be neutral and open the discussion up to the people that frequent TTAG’s comment section.

          It’s the comment section that can be anti-cop on occasion, because, as you can see, there are quite a few commenters that are anti-cop. That in itself isn’t “bad”, but you don’t want to it be cop vs. anti-cop arguments all the time, maybe some forum guidelines need to a little more strict.

          I think so long as the articles themselves don’t take a decidedly “Anti-cop” stance, TTAG’s only “problem” is a lot of the community just tries to plug their political stance instead of staying on topic.

  31. There are a lot more so-called “good cops” than there are bad ones. Unfortunately, it’s the good cops that protect, enable and lie for the bad ones, time after time. There are thousands of cases of cops cooking the books, falsifying evidence, beating confessions out of suspects, shooting innocent civilians and, in one famous case, shoving the handle of a toilet bowl plunger up a guy’s a$$. And for every such case, there were thousands of “good cops” who stood behind the bad ones and lied for them.

    When cops get the message that they work for us and not their union, all this cop disparagement will end. Sadly, that will be never. So I don’t hate cops — but I trust them as far as I can spit against the wind.

    • Give that man a prize!

      Good cops get a clue, if you or your union covers for bad cops, they YOU ARE A BAD COP YOURSEFL !

    • Course, the only problem is, the “us” you speak of is largely stupid. That’s just human nature — we tend to not like authority, especially if we feel it was unwarranted for whatever reason.

      Maybe the person that got a handle shoved in his a$$ was being a real prick?

      Kidding aside, I think anyone that harbors any hate towards cops has obviously no clue of the sea of stupidity they have to deal with on a daily basis. Anyone that has worked retail has a tiny glimpse of this compared to cops. If you think retail is bad and that’s when “customers” view you as “beneath them”, imagine the hate you would inspire if they perceived you as an “authority figure”. Let the shit storm of smart a$$ comments and hate begin.

      Do that on a daily basis for years, and yeah, maybe you’ll start to see your fellow man a little differently. Being a cop is like dealing with children on a daily basis; children that may or may not be dangerous and could kill you. Same attitude, big risk.

      That said, it’s a vicious cycle. All it takes is one angry cop or a petulant civilian (or vice versa) and that story hits the news and just makes the merry-go-round of finger-pointing continue.

    • Bingo.

      At the top of the thread, I was wondering if I was going to have to same the exact same thing: What infuriates me aren’t the very small faction of LEO’s that are goofballs, corrupt or screw-ups.

      It is the “close ranks,” and “them vs. us” attitude that takes over and prevents a full accountability that would remove the bad LEO’s from the forces. Some LEO’s are so bad that they should be banned from being in any law enforcement capacity ever again.

      But the doctrine of sovereign immunity not only prevents accountability from being visited upon individual LEO’s who screw up and go outside of official policy, it makes the taxpayers financially liable to pay off the lawsuit costs and damage awards when the aggrieved parties successfully bring legal action. Was it the taxpayers’ fault? No. So why is the taxpayer paying for the accountability of the incompetent or corrupt?

      The other thing that Ralph touches upon is the police unions. In some states, the police (and other public employee unions) have negotiated retirement and medical packages that are simply not possible to sustain. The mathematics of these “defined benefit pensions” simply do not work.

  32. This is a blog, not a news source. Since it is a blog it is expected that it will espouse the owner’s view of things, and you’ve explained yours. So it’s not required to provide balance if you don’t want to. I write my blog from a Christian perspective of life and don’t feel obligated to “balance” that with any other worldview’s perspective! 😉

    That said, it’s wise to she that the police can and do make good citizens and faithful servants. (I have a lot of cop friends and they are just that) What balance does in your coverage is show that you aren’t jaded in your approach and that you recognize the good and bad in everyone and every profession. And then when you skewer someone your audience will trust that they deserve it.

  33. The posts in question are mostly highlighting a lack of accountability for a select few police officers. It is reasonable and just to ask for everyone to play by the same rules.

    Law enforcement officers are the public face of a legal system that holds private citizens accountable for obeying 1000’s of often obscure laws and administrative codes. Hence the frequent advice to shut up and not speak to an official unless you have an attorney present or to even hang up on a 911 call.

    Police officers on the other hand are allowed to break many laws with alarming immunity. How often do you see police cars obeying the maximum posted speed limit? I see them break it more than they follow it. How often do you see police cars run red lights or turn their siren on so they can clear an intersection and then turn the siren immediately off?

    Why aren’t judges, district attorneys, and police officers held accountable for errant no knock raids. Frequently the raids in question are for enforcing warrants against non-violent offenders or even misdemeanor warrants.

    I believe we made a mistake as a country when we made the move from “peace officers” to “law enforcement officers”. Enforcing the peace is a far cry from arresting someone for violating an ATF legal memorandum.

    • +1

      The whole crimefighter sensationalism nonsense that spread all over the country has made a mess of things. So has the drug war, too.

      I would like to know if any police officers here have ever called one of their colleagues on something they did that was immoral, unethical, or possibly unconstitutional.

  34. Very good post, which addresses a topic that needs to be talked about more than it is.

    For what it’s worth, it seems to me that in recent years police in general have become much more aggressive, if not thuggish, and certainly less accountable for their actions. The “thin blue line” mentality is much more pronounced these days, as is the “us against them” mentality that sees all “civilians” as potential threats. Dominate and control seems to be the guiding principle, and casual interaction with “civilians” is all too often received as an unwelcome intrusion by the guy behind the sunglasses. The militarization of law enforcement has not helped matters either.

    Back in the day (mid-70s) I spent 7 years in law enforcement: 2 years on a suburban Chicago department, then 5 years in Baltimore (divided between the Eastern and Northwest Districts). Since then I have been a pastor whose congregation includes a number of LE members from the DC area.

    In conversations with LE members of my church I often hear “but there are only a few rotten apples” in the police barrel, and I agree. However my response is that the good officers invariably close ranks and cover for the bad apples when they would throw the book at a “civilian” for the same infractions. All of this was true way back when, and is probably a reflection of human nature, but it is still neither good nor healthy, and is ultimately corrupting.

    Unfortunately, as our culture continues to degenerate the powers that be will ramp up their efforts to control things, with the police as their chief enforcers and fundraisers. I wonder how long it will be before men and women of integrity no longer pursue careers as police?

    Pet peeve: the tasers need to go.

    Love your site, and hope you will continue to call it as you see it.

  35. There are far more good police officers than bad cops, period. That being said, the bulk of those good cops actively participate in unions/organizations that will bend over backwards to defend the indefensible behavior of the worst cops. When we see crazed Muslim thugs raping, killing, and terrorizing don’t we wonder why the majority of Muslims, those that are peaceful and kind, just stand silent and let evil be done in their name? Well that is how I feel about cops- the majority needs to rise up and repudiate the thugs that violate their duty to the law and constitution.

  36. Well Farago, as you know I’ve been a cop for many years and have been involved in several shooting incidents. That’s the reason I get a bit irked when cops are found “guilty” on here before all the facts are out, or when people who’ve never been (and probably never will be) in a gun fight for their lives try to second quess what happens in seconds. I will always feel that way; if you ain’t done it just STFU.

    Nonetheless, you did admit the obvious, so thanks for standing up for your beliefs. I figured there was something in your background that fostered your anti-police bias. I still think you’re wrong, but you do have balls, and I admire and respect that.

    • I’ve been a cop for many years and have been involved in several shooting incidents. That’s the reason I get a bit irked when cops are found “guilty” on here before all the facts are out

      Sort of like how the police consider civilians who are involved in a DGU to be guilty, arrest them, and petition the states attorney to file charges?

      or when people who’ve never been (and probably never will be) in a gun fight for their lives try to second quess what happens in seconds. I will always feel that way;

      So should only police officers who have been involved in a shoot out be allowed to arrest someone they suspect of murdering another with a firearm? After all, the officers who havent shouldnt be second guessing what happens in seconds, right?

  37. My father was a Detriot MI cop for 30+years. Before he died he was appalled at the behavior of the militarized police forces… and let me be clear Bart was in no way, shape or form a bleeding heart “progressive”. Nope. No way. At all. Ever.

    TTAG is anti-asshole. [prolly gonna be deleted but the powers that be will see my support of their editorials.]

    • It sounds like your Dad was what I call an “old school” police officer. I had plenty of run-ins with those kind of guys when I was a street kid in the Bronx. They would often run us off, but rarely run us in. They were tough — and physical — but they never shot anyone as far as I know. They broke our balls, but never our bones. We called them “apple stealers,” because none of them ever paid for a piece of fruit from the local stand. But that’s all they ever took, and the fruit guy was happy to have them around. Those cops all walked a beat. I almost never saw them in squad cars, and absolutely never saw them in pairs. We knew their names, and they could call most of the people on their beat by their name.

      As far as I’m concerned, they were the very definition of “good cops.” We could use a lot more of them today.

      • Ralph, I remember those old school cops. They were mostly veterans and mostly not college educated. I got slapped around a couple of times but they didn”t ruin your life by starting a paper trail on you.
        But could you imagine those same cops in the age of entitlement, with cell phone cameras everywhere.

        • I do think that squad cars have really put up a barrier between the citizens and the police in a lot of places. There need to be more positive day-to-day interactions and relationships developed between police officers and the communities they serve. I think a lot of the mistrust between citizens and police in some areas (Chicago and other craphole cities not included) comes from that sort of self-imposed isolation.

          The only interaction I have with police, aside from my best friend who is a cop down here, is when I rarely get pulled over. Around here it seems like they enjoy playing on their computers in their cars more than getting out and talking to regular people.

  38. In my job and elsewise I’ve met a lot of great cops and a number of dangerous boneheads. In many senses they are no different than our troops on the line, and bad things happen for various reasons. The biggest issues seem to be the specific operating theater they have to patrol, and the politics behind them. I have less issue with the occasional idiot/stress case on the line than a bad agenda from the elected suits.

    As for the occasional idiot/dangerous bonehead, I think the high-drama exposures of their “misdeeds” can actually be helpful. A pro cop can say “Thankfully that’s not me,” a not-so-confident one “I’m glad it wasn’t me–More training please!” and the boneheads might decide to change their ways.

    This is not to say the best cop won’t wind up in a bad situation (and featured on this site). I tend to take the bad cop stories as “moral tales” more than legal fact: “Don’t let this happen to you…” There wasn’t enough info to make any decision about the 41 shot scenario–I just hope it wasn’t as bad as it sounded. Even the NY mess: Once the confrontation was made and the shooting began, it went about as well as it could given all the various factors (my biggest issue was the staging of the confrontation–could it have been done better?–but it was likely a chaotic heat-of-the-moment dude-just-shot-that-guy-oh-there-he-is-GUNNN!!). The upside is I bet a lot of cops are upping their range time and training because of the bad press.

    Hey: Bad fights make great training scenarios…

  39. This blog has an IGOTD and a DGUTD, and generally presents a fair and balanced view of gun owners. I see no reason that police news stories should be treated any differently. Generally speaking, LE has low pay, low reward, shitty hours, and officers are really under the microscope in this country–it’s the definition of a thankless job. I’m not saying there’s a need for a cop circle jerk every month or so, but maybe you guys can scan the headlines for an “above and beyond” story once in a while. Hell, if you guys are busy (still don’t understand how you guys can be so prolific), I can look for stories and email them.

    I’m admittedly a bit biased, I have a family member in law enforcement. He was answering a call for a domestic dispute and the dude was high and violent. The dude rushed him with a knife and my family member shot and killed him. Seeing how my family was affected, and seeing all the people out for his blood in the aftermath…I don’t envy his job in the least.

  40. There are decent and dedicated cops out there, but I support and applaud your exposure of “incompetence, arrogance, lack of accountability and general thugitude”, as well as the increasing (and deeply disturbing) militarization of police. Government, to include the police, works for us. Clearly there are police leaders and police officers who don’t understand this. Oh, and by the way- cops are “civilians” just like the people they are supposed to protect and serve.

  41. If anything I’m more worried about the odd inclination your website has to encourage us to carry a man-purse. But as it goes I know police that are good and bad. My LGS is run by a LEO who is very pro-2a; I’ve also had the misfortune to have to contact the police (recently) and be treated like an utter moron.

    Cops are people too. Some are outstanding and some need to be left out standing somewhere far from civilization.

  42. As long as cops keep enforcing unenforcible laws and destroying people’s lives for committing nonviolent noncrimes they will continue to be a threat to decent society. Cops are directly responsible for crimes committed in support of personal drug habits. Every home that gets robbed, every mugging or robbery committed to support someone’s habit, is directly attributable to the government imposed, cop-enforced black market (artificially high) price for that drug.

  43. (I’m posting late because my wife is pregnant, and needed some help, and my first two comments got deleted somehow.)

    There are a couple of anti-LEO biases on TTAG:

    First, police officers are not civilians.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilian

    There are certainly other definitions of civilians out there, but if you are professionally obligated to respond to violent SHTF situations, can be called back to duty at any time after a major incident, deal with violent a$$holes, and have to run towards the gunfire, those are combatants. I support self – defense, but John Q. Public is not required to face down dangerous people or lethal threats. The police are not required in all circumstances to defend individuals, but they are required to face and resolve the emergency. For my part, I’m not going to let someone die if there is something I can do about it on duty or off duty (pulling an old lady off of the tracks in front of a moving train has absolutely nothing to do with firearms). My Boot Camp in the Marine Corps was 12 weeks, with less than 3 months in School of Infantry. My training in my current agency was considerably longer and entailed a background investigation that was much more thorough.

    Secondly, you’ve missed out on tactical analyses on two recent “good shootings.” CHP Officer Youngstrom was shot and killed by Lacy. Lacy was subsequently shot and killed by Youngtrstroms’s CHP officer / beat partner. Your articles only focused on the mentally ill and firearms. Take the WI Sikh Temple shooting: your article was on carrying a firearm in your trunk. I missed the heroic actions of the police officer who responded to the active shooter incident and stopped the threat. Courage under fire is heralded in the Marine Corps, why not in law enforcement?

    The posting of the sensational stories with few details such as the Garland, TX shooting was premature. How can reasonable and intelligent analysis occur without facts and details? Predictably, the anti-LEO posters had a field day. Those with more reason and wisdom will wait a bit.

    In my department, breaking the law can and will get you written up, suspended, terminated, or imprisoned. I will not cite specific examples here, because I speak for myself and not my agency. I have testified against other officers when they were in the wrong, and I have been written up when I was in the wrong. That is part of the reason why I am currently training someone who had been disciplined in the past. It is regrettable that many agencies and police officers do not have honor, but I believe that they are the exception rather than the rule. I have integrity outside of the badge I carry, not because of it.

    I greatly respect TTAG, your writings, and most of the comments here. I appreciate that my errors have been corrected by facts and citations (some of those errors were after several smoky scotches). TTAG has helped me become a more informed gun owner, and a better 2nd Amendment advocate. It has not helped me become a better police officer, because many stories of police heroism have been over looked, and that is a shame.

    • Accur81, congrats on the upcoming baby. You do know that the only reason to have kids is so you can have grandkids, right? My wife and I are expecting our sixth grandkid.
      The rest of your post was spot on.

  44. If you’re watching, this is slowly trending into a good cops vs bad cops thread. Try to resist the urge to cheerlead or vilify LEOs and keep it on topic, please.

    • So a “good” cop is one who blindly follows what a politician tells him to do, and a “bad” one does not. Right…

      • matt: No, that’s not what I meant, and I think you know that. I just meant that people were starting to tell their stories of good police interaction and bad police interaction, which is all well and good, but has nothing to do with the original question of “Is TTAG anti-cop?”

  45. Police officers hold a special status. They’re given powers and responsibilities that the rest of us don’t have. I support them when they respect the proper limits of their job, but when they screw up, either by accident or intent, they have committed more than just a standard error or crime.

    • “Police officers hold a special status. They’re given powers and responsibilities that the rest of us don’t have. I support them when they respect the proper limits of their job, but when they screw up, either by accident or intent, they have committed more than just a standard error or crime.”

      Agreed. However, one correction: cops are not given powers, but delegated powers SAME AS OURS.

      Mainly, one of the power of ‘citizen’s arrest.’ They do not have ANY powers not reserved to the citizenry. The true beginnings of legal separation began with an UnConstitutional 100% legal fiction, aka. “qualified immunity.”

      “Qualified Immunity” has as much legitimacy as “reasonable regulation.” There’s only one Constitutional muster: “probable cause.” What is “reasonable” to a citizen vs. what it maybe for a State actor currently employed by the State at our behest, is a wholly different matter. It would be naive to assume a judge and prosecutor who are paid employees of the State in the aggregate could EVER be “impartial.”

      And even the defense attorney who swears oath to be a “court appointed officer” and not to his/her client, thus in the end does not really have YOUR best interests in mind, as his/her very private Temple-Bar Association membership (not de jure required to practice law, but de facto required by practice, kinda like the American Medical Association membership; respective state govts only require a doctor be licensed by the state, but the term “board certified” has propagandized to the sheeple populace to equate AMA as IF a govt sanctioning body, when it’s merely a private corp. like Underwriter Laboratories’s UL-label, in reality) depends on upholding the State, NOT YOU.

      We do NOT have “Peace Officers” in my beloved REPUBLIC anymore, but a Praetorian Guard for the political class. Plus, SCOTUS has ruled time and time again that they are not required to protect the citizenry.

      So then WTF do ‘we’ need them for? Nothing. What does the political class/commissars/apparatchiks need them for? Tax-thievery (revenue generation) and political policing. Nothing more.

      With the soon to be full-on currency crisis, you’ll see more civil strife, and the cops themselves will finally realize that they’ve never been ‘part of the club,’ as the same bankster a-holes who exposed the citizenry via Federal Reserve’s FDIC to the tune of $1.5 quadrillion (Bank of International Settlement’s own “conservative” assessment from 2010) in derivatives exposure that the same politicos that they oh so willfully cover for, have already STOLEN their pensions, along with the rest of ours.

      Every time I see any news or propagandistic lionization of public SERVANTS, the only thing that comes to mind is all the parodies of 1980’s USSR military parades where they rolled out ICBM’s and militants as if they were covering Brangelina at Cannes film festival, with march kick and armed salute as high as Nazis.

      I keep reminding myself, just 30yrs ago, we used to LAUGH AT mindless brainwashed Ruskie Commie f*ck bozos who’d kiss ass and lick the boots of the State and its tyrannical actors.

      Now, all you gotta do is go to FaceBook or any news article’s comment section after a police shooting and immediately you see PBA and police family member autonomically defending Rodney King-esque beatings, as if they work for the Force ‘Science’ Inst..

      It’s been truly pathetic watching some of the most bravest citizenry who NEVER trusted govt as a whole, to a bunch of mindless Nazi DHS (no literally it was based on the Nazi’s security apparatus with the help of former East German Stasi head Marcus Wolf, whom the FBI hired to blueprint DHS years before it was instituted; no govt program or agencies suddenly pop out of the blue, they always have whitepapers published mulling these things years before an opportune event gives them enough justification to push them through the asleep citizenry) and TSA pedophile acquiescing slaves.

      It’s pathetic what Americans have become: a bunch of mindless pussies who love sucking the toes of the Statist thugs.

      Our sole solace are the likes who visit and contribute to sites like TTAG.

      Keep up the great work, Robert Farago!

      Your personal background helps me appreciate your perspective and this site, all the more.

      NEVER compromise. A thug is a thug, is a thug. Cops are not grown in some super duper secret genetics lab: they’re trainable for a reason.

      They come from the same gene pool as the rest of us: from morons to the sublime. NO DIFFERENT.

      To attribute special characteristic/human trait solely based a profession is, (excuse my American), what Commie Cuntrag Liberal/RINO fucks do, NOT what free sovereign individuals/citizens of a Constitutional REPUBLIC do.

      Drink on, Write forth Farago. Speak hard, and never stop telling it like it is. The day you compromise and pussy out, is the day YOU become Jerry Tsai and RECOIL.

  46. Well,

    A few observations.
    The police do what our political leaders want them to do and we’re too dumb to get rid of the politicians ……..Congress with a less than 20% approval rating but incumbents always get reelected.
    Protocols at the time of Columbine were to wait for reinforcements. Several students were shot dead while the police set up a perimeter.
    I believe (before Columbine) there was a deputy sheriff in SC (I think), got a call that someone was shooting people in a nursing home. He responded and had time to think and decide to wait for help, worry about getting shot, ambush?, etc. He didn’t, went in, got shot but shot the bad guy. THAT man is a real HERO.

    Judge them individually but keep reporting the bad ones.

  47. Well I would say this sight isn’t anti cop. It is anti ignorant, over bearing, bad cop.
    It is unfortunate that good cops don’t getter press but we rely on the press for our stories.
    Incompetent and bad cops need the light of day to shine on them. In some cases like the NYC encounter I don’t blame the cops. I blame poor training and stupid laws regarding trigger pull. If anything that isn’t anti cop it is anti poor training. Given some of the stories as of late it appears the more training for LEO’s is certainly in order.
    If there are anti cop / anti government statements out there it is usually found in the comments.

  48. As my name suggests, I am a retired LEO. And I support discussions about these kinds of issues completely. Several friends and fellow LEO retirees and I swap emails linking to the various stories of police misconduct that sadly occurs on a very frequent basis. And even sadder for me is the number of legal clients I now represent in lawsuits against departments. Does that make me a traitor ? Hardly. Police should be held to a higher standard. It is that simple. It has always been a difficult job, and always will be. My friends and I comment that we now are more concerned about the police than we are of the bad guys. Them, we can handle – that’s why we all carry. And support must issue for all who are not criminals.

    • Police should be held to a higher standard.

      @OldLawman, old lawyers like me would be happy if police were held to the same standard as the rest of us. However, it seems in many cases that they are held to a lower one.

      FYI, I did very well for my clients and myself handling Sec. 1983 cases back in the day, before I retired.

  49. Police departments in America should adopt the Peelian Principles that Britain’s cops seems to have somewhat abandoned.

    If you’re a police officer, I hope you’re at least familiar with who Robert Peel is. If not, I’ll clue you in: he’s the father of modern policing. Before him there weren’t really any cops, just nightwatchmen. If you’re not familiar with him and/or his principles please read on.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

    1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
    2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
    3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
    4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
    5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
    6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
    7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
    8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
    9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

    I take issue with number five since there are things, IMO, that police should ignore and laws that they should refuse (whether silently or openly) to enforce due to their unconstitutional, anti-liberty nature.

    But as a whole this would be much better than the door-kicking commando, skinhead, and uniformed asskicker, crimefighting street soldier mentality and image that’s pretty pervasive in a lot of areas.

    I see too many cops these days with shaved heads and sunglasses trying to look mean. And you know what? That doesn’t make me want to interact with them in any way, let alone a positive one.

    I’ve also noticed that a lot of cops have this attitude that “the Officer Friendlies are always the ones getting killed.” Bullshit. You can be a decent human being, polite, vigilant, and tough as nails at the same time. Turning on a-hole mode when it’s not needed makes people hate you.

  50. OK… FOUND YOUR SITE A SHORT WHILE BACK. WHILE I ENJOY MOST OF YOUR POSTS, I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT YOUR AGENDA GOES BEYOND BEING INFORMATIVE, AND THE FIRES IT FUELS FROM MOST OF YOUR COMMENTATORS HAS REACHED ITS LIMIT WITH ME. I HEAR ENOUGH ANTI-POLICE TALK FROM THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT I DEAL WITH. YOU AND YOUR ANTI POLICE COMMENTERS HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR LIFE WOULD BE LIKE IF WE WERE NOT THERE….GOOD BYE.

    • Ever stop to consider that life could be a whole lot better without cops like you around? I firmly believe that down here South of the Mason-Dixon even more of us would arm up and take out the trash that prey on innocent people and keep on going through the revolving door court system. Those same courts, by the way, are often too preoccupied with busting potheads, coke runners, etc. I have a sneaking suspicion that more attention is paid to them than necessary due to the money the government often seizes by arresting them.

      Nope, we’d leave the drug abusers for the churches and charities to reach out to. As long as they aren’t hurting anyone but themselves it isn’t any of my business.

      As it is now we usually don’t need y’all to do anything other than direct traffic, take a report after one of us has put a BG in the ground, and make sure the occasional mob doesn’t get too out of control.

      It’s a tough job at times and it’s bet suited for intelligent, tough people with thick skins. I’m not sure that you possess the latter. Good riddance.

    • Okay, bye. Just consider this:
      As a young person, the worst I would hear about police were comments about how someone got a ticket they didn’t think they deserved.

      Forty years later, I hear people my age and older speak of being harassed and demeaned by steroid cops. Sure, it’s not all cops, but there are enough bullies to make many be concerned. It’s not that we’re all anti-police, but at times it does seem as though police have become anti-citizen.

      The macho/steroid cop doesn’t do a thing to enhance public relations. We aren’t servants of the police. We’re polite and respectful with police, just as we are with any other person – but don’t demand extra respect simply because of your perceived power. Common folks are tired of that, and that reduces trust.

  51. There are both good and bad law enforcement officers like anything else. Given the general lack of accountability when law enforcement officers misbehave, I believe it is good for somone like “TheTruthAboutGuns” to provide some accountability.

    Of course everyone hates dirty cops. There always have been and there always will be dirty cops. Hopefully the internal affairs types will prosecute them. What really bothers me are the law enforcement officers who genuinely try to be and think of themselves as good cops … and then enforce firearms laws on citizens who have no criminal record, who have no intention of harming anyone, and who are simply armed.

    For example today I took several long guns over to a friend’s property to make sure they are all sighted in properly. Why do those long guns have to be unloaded and encased in my vehicle? There is no reason for it … especially since I have a concealed handgun carry license and carry a loaded handgun in my car all the time. Think about it. The state says that I am trustworthy enough to carry a loaded handgun in the car — just laying on the seat if I choose — but somehow I am not trustworthy enough to have a loaded long gun in the car laying on the seat. It doesn’t make any sense. And it violates the clear language and intent of the Second Amendment. So why do any law enforcement officers — who honestly think they are “good cops” and swore an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution — enforce such meaningless firearm laws? My only conclusion is that, while they mean well, they are “just following orders”. Well that doesn’t cut it. Those law enforcement officers are violating citizens’ rights and liberty; they have violated the Social Contract and they are thus in a state of war against “We the People”. They should feel fortunate that the most significant “counter attack” they face (by and large) are condemnation on blogs such as this.

    • +1

      This is why I said above that police officers should not enforce anti-liberty mala prohibita laws. They’re citizens just like us but in many cases they’re immune from the kind of treatment the rest of us would and do get from them. Why? Because we’re not part of their group. We’re not special. We’re not privileged. We’re not “the only ones” and we don’t have a blue wall of silence protecting us. Cops often overlook a lot of crap that other cops do and slam average people for doing the same thing.

      Equal treatment for all or no treatment at all.

      • They enforce those laws because they have been challenged and upheld as constitutional. Just like the Kelo decision, etc, etc. If we are to have Rule of Law, then we have to have a means of enforcing the law. I know LEOs who disagree with the law as written or interpreted, but they still have to enforce it.

        One of the reasons things are degenerating in this country is that the power structures set up by the Framers no longer exist. They assumed the division of power between branches of government as well as self-interest would serve to keep things in balance.

        Now, the Legislature refuses to confront the Executive when Constitutional limits on power are exceeded (and Bush did it too, it’s not just an Obama thing), and the Judiciary will rewrite legislation rather than rule it unconstitutional.

        We have all the power we need – Americans can demand accountability from their representatives in government, and use that to control the law as well as law enforcement. That’s the beauty of a Republic.

        I’d just like to point out that the electorate is totally accountable for the problems facing us today. We may not have the government we want, but we have the one we deserve.

        • And just to clarify, I know people who work in LE, I’m not LE. I reread that post and realized that might be unclear.

        • They enforce those laws because they have been challenged and upheld as constitutional

          Like Chicago’s handgun ban?

          If we are to have Rule of Law, then we have to have a means of enforcing the law

          Who actually wants the rule of law? The rule of law simply states that you are a subject of a politician. Perhaps you might have a miniscule influence is who you are a subject of, but you are a subject none the less. The rule of law does nothing to protect you, unless you are a member of the oligarchy.

          When you look at voter participation rates in this country, a majoriy of people do not participate in this process. It would be reasonable to assume they do not want to be subjects of a politician.

          We have all the power we need…

          We do, in the declaration of independence, codified in to US law under the title organic laws, which acknowledges not only our right, but a civic duty to armed rebellion.

          I’d just like to point out that the electorate is totally accountable for the problems facing us today.

          I wholeheartedly agree with you. Thankfully a majority of the people in this country are not members of the electorate.

  52. Robert, don’t change a thing.If I need cops slapping other cops on the back I’ll visit Police1.com .Sadly,those folks in the comment section seem to let alot of unacceptable behavior slide because someone is wearing a badge.I’m embarassed by and for them.
    We(government generally,law enforcement specifically) have systematically turned once self reliant citizens into cop needing sheep. There is no escaping the addage -when seconds count,we are just minutes away.Every willing citizen should be an armed sheepdog. The only reason citizens should have to call us is to bring the chalk and cut paper assuming a lawful us of force.It is interesting to me that the greater the citizen opposition to bad cop behavior the more tolerant cops seem to be to of that behavior.Most cops fail to realize that they too are civilians unless they are packing a green id.

  53. (I’m posting late because my wife is pregnant, and needed some help, and my first two comments got deleted somehow.)

    There are a couple of anti-LEO biases on TTAG.

    First, police officers are not civilians.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilian

    There are certainly other definitions of civilians out there, but if you are professionally obligated to respond to violent SHTF situations, can be called back to duty at any time after a major incident, deal with violent a$$holes, and have to run towards the gunfire, those are combatants. I support self – defense, but John Q. Public is not required to face down dangerous people or lethal threats. The police are not required in all circumstances to defend individuals, but they are required to face and resolve the emergency. For my part, I’m not going to let someone die if there is something I can do about on duty or off duty (pulling an old lady off of the tracks in front of a moving train has absolutely nothing to do with firearms). My Boot Camp in the Marine Corps was 12 weeks with less than 3 months in School of Infantry, my training in my current agency was considerably longer and entailed a background investigation that was much more thorough.

    Secondly, you’ve missed out on tactical analyses on two recent “good shootings.” CHP Officer Youngstrom was shot and killed by Lacy. Lacy was subsequently shot and killed by Youngtrstroms’s CHP officer / beat partner. Your articles only focused on the mentally ill and firearms. Take the WI Sikh Temple shooting: your article was on carrying a firearm in your trunk. I missed the heroic actions of the police officer who responded to the active shooter incident and stopped the threat. Courage under fire is heralded in the Marine Corps, why not in law enforcement?

    The posting of the sensational stories with few details such as the Garland, TX shooting was premature. How can reasonable and intelligent analysis occur without facts and details? Predictably, the anti-LEO posters had a field day. Those with more reason and wisdom will wait a bit.

    In my department, breaking the law can and will get you written up, suspended, terminated, or imprisoned. I will not cite specific examples here, because I speak for myself and not my agency. I have testified against other officers when they were in the wrong, and I have been written up. It is regrettable that many agencies and police officers do not have honor, but I believe that they are the exception rather than the rule. I have integrity outside of the badge I carry, not because of it.

    I greatly respect TTAG, your writings, and most of the comments here. I appreciate that my errors have been corrected by facts and citations (some of those errors were after several smoky scotches). TTAG has helped me become a more informed gun owner, and a better 2nd Amendment advocate. It has not helped me become a better police officer, because many stories of police heroism have been over looked, and that is a shame.

    • Accur81: If you hit Post and it doesn’t show up, it’s pretty much a guarantee that it got caught by the !@#$% spam filter. Send an email to [email protected] with the subject of “rescue me from the spam filter” and they’ll fix it. In my experience unless it’s the wee hours of the morning, it’s fixed within 60-90 minutes, and usually faster.

  55. …I was a cop from 1971 until 2002. I agree with the Old Lawman and urge you to keep dinging the culls and incompetants in my previous profession. Every job of trust, and the jobs of extraordinary trust, like doctors, nurses and priests and cops ( there are more ), should be held to a higher standard. Those folks sought those positions, and we, as citizens, depend on their exceptional knowledge and skills. They trade being treated like every other citizen for that trust. CRUSH them when they violate it.

    …You Libertarians who think you can empower every cop with a Constitutional veto; you are WRONG. Cops are the worker bees. They have to enforce and follow the law, but we can’t have the enforcers also being the judges. We dare not give anyone both jobs, there, lies corruption and madness. If you don’t like the law, change it. Cops don’t have the training, or experience to pick and choose which statutes they think should be enforced. You get to pick the legislature, and the Governor who signs or veto’s the bills into, or out of, law. You DON’T get to pick your cops by democratic vote, and they have civil service protection. Don’t give them veto power over laws. And Buster, you ain’t a gonna like their decisions. Quit thinking they will do what you would do. I know them. They won’t.

    ..So Ron, you are from The Island. Not one in a thousand folks know what Roger Williams gave this country, or Rhode Island, in particular. The freedom which infused Rhode Island is and was unique. How about a posting on that. I’ll bet most Americans don’t know that Rhode Island declared their independance from Britain 2 months before Congress did on 7-4-76. All alone.
    …You Liberty hounds. Read up on Rhode island. Where you point, they went there first.
    …Lastly, you morons who want to take individual police corruption and project it to cover them all. A Florida cop screws up and you think that this sully’s me ? Get a life. I don’t know the guy. I never met him, nor him me. I control him not, nor, do you. You got Daddy issues. Go see a shrink.

    • It’s not corruption to ignore violations of unconstitutional laws. Don’t be dishonest. Police corruption is when a cop takes a bribe for doing something. Them choosing not to enforce a law is them exercising their discretion. You were a cop. You should know this, it’s pretty basic stuff.

    • Dave D actually I do expect law enforcement officers to interpret the laws. They are citizens as well. I don’t expect them to be attorneys. But I do expect them to refuse to obey unlawful orders and to refuse to enforce laws that clearly violate the U.S. Constitution.

    • Cops are the worker bees. They have to enforce and follow the law, but we can’t have the enforcers also being the judges… Cops don’t have the training, or experience to pick and choose which statutes they think should be enforced.

      They why does the officer have descrection in certain instances?

      Lastly, you morons who want to take individual police corruption and project it to cover them all

      So how many times did you or your coworkers give tickets to other on duty officers? I see on a weekly basis cops driving above the speed limit, talking on cell phones while driving, not wearing seat belts, not using turn signals, rolling thru stop signs, etc. If there are some who are not corrupt, I wonder why I have never see them ticket their fellow on duty officers?

      And why should police officers have qualified immunity if they never break the law?

    • I don’t get it. When cops ignore certain laws, we properly excoriate them for being bad. And then we tell them to ignore other laws, because that would be good. That makes no sense.

      If we don’t like the laws, we should change them. When cops get to pick and chose the laws that they will respect, that’s when we’re all in trouble. Dave D is absolutely right about that.

      • +1

        What I am getting from some posters is essentially this “cops should enforce only laws that *I* want but not the ones I don’t like or will inconvenience me.” Sorry, but that’s not how our system works. Laws are passed by elected officials put in place by the people. When they pass laws that are not in line with the will of the people, they are challenged through our judicial system. Law ENFORCEMENT does exactly what their job titles say, until said law is overturned, repealed, etc.

        If you don’t like a law, get it changed. Vote, either through the ballot box or with your wallet, write your elected politicians, protest, whatever. Bashing the police for doing their jobs is not only illogical, but also accomplishes nothing to change what you are unhappy about.

        • And when those repeal efforts fail we’re told to “deal with it” because that’s how democracy works. Majority tyranny.

          I am firmly convinced that the only effective tool citizens have in stopping the authoritarian madness that has swept our country is jury nullification.

  56. Ive often found, in myself at times as well, that people in general just simply do not like being told what to do. Even when it is completely justified, righteous and good that they be told so. Its a human nature thing. And I also know that it doesn’t help much when the officer doing the telling (or whatever) does it with a bit of or a ton of attitude.

    I’ve also observed many who were very prone to outright criminal behavior get all up in arms ( I suspect the many references here listed as “I hate cops…cause, well I have my reasons”) and on the anti-cop bandwagon.

    I’m not gonna go into a long winded deal about why I think such attitude is not right, but I do want to say that my opinion of the question asked is yes, I do think this site, which I love BTW, is over the top with anti-cop stuff. The endless rants from people who just say “I hate cops” in the comments take it a step further. And it takes away from the quality of the web site and the quality of its content. I do understand that the editors have little control over the content of comments, but hey, if your selling perfume, you can’t complain when a bunch of whores show up and stick around…forever.

    I don’t form this opinion simply because cops are busted on here. As you prob know, I am a cop, and oh man, there are forums an web sites restricted to LE only and the busting that takes place there of bad cops and bad cop decisions made by otherwise good cops is second to none…brutal, I like that and I like it when I see it here as well. So it’s not the busting of cops that I have a problem with…it’s the absolute resounding emphatic and almost blanket nature by which it’s done here, almost like the facts of whatever incident being discussed don’t matter…..if it involved a cop….its bad and so is the cop.

    I’m not asking for anyone on this site to show mercy where it’s not deserved, if there is an idiot who did something and we can learn a lesson from it or get a good ribbing out of it, then hell, by all means…lets tear em up, cop or no cop. Nobody is above the specter or facts and review. (Except Obama didn’t you know?)

    I’m also not asking to balance things out and throw a bunch of pro cop stuff in here, unless you’re so inclined from your nature as a reporter/reviewer/blogger or whatever.

    Just thinking it may be a decent idea to at least take into consideration the realism of what some police officers undergo when in these situations, the instantaneous and brutal nature of humanity and somehow keeping composure and “professionalism” during the event. The fact that cops are interjected either by invitation or observation into problems that people have often created in their lives, sometimes taking years to do so, an somehow the cop, on the fly within seconds is supposed to know what the right decision is. I don’t expect most people to understand the details and I aint gonna try to convince nobody, but most folks(not all) forms their opinions on what they see on TV from all those wonderful camera angles and scripted actions and others have them further formed by that time(s) they were caught doing something they should not have been doing and yet still to this day, pride refuses to allow them to admit they were wrong. So they harbor anger and the above mentioned natural feelings of not liking to be told what to do by anyone. Cops are not robots, they are people just like all of us here.
    Guess I’ll just wrap it up by saying that is a well-known fact that vast majority of cops are pro-gun, pro second amendment, have a great interest in guns and sites like this and oppose any forms of gun control. I think it’s rough to intentionally exclude them from such a wonderful site you have created here guys. And exclude is just what is happening, I love this site, but many times I have walked away from it thinking “God, I cant stand to read such blatant anti-cop stuff while reading another, otherwise great article about guns”…and I get upset and move on to another site. But I don’t want to, because you guys have your stuff together and put out a nice product. I’ve got to believe there are other cops who come here and are revolted by what they see an never come back. And that a tragedy, this is a good site with good writers.

    So maybe a few less articles complaining about the weapons cops have.,….you know the same ones you guys drool over and many if not all of you own already, the only difference is that ours have an extra notch on the selector switch. Hell id be perfectly happy with semi only anyway. You can have one too if you want an older pre-86 model and have 15-30k sitting around doing nothing. It sucks but hey that’s the law, and I would love to see the day when it changes, but it don’t look like that day is coming any time soon.

    I don’t know…that’s all I got. It just sucks coming to a site that I enjoy so much only to know without question or doughnut (You see what my spell checker did there!!) that not only the pinheads in the comments hate me, but the authors do as well.

    Well I guess that blows the long winded thing out the window..lol.

    • I’ve also observed many who were very prone to outright criminal behavior get all up in arms

      What is wrong with being a criminal? All it means is that the politicians don’t like what you’re doing. Didn’t it used to be criminal for blacks not to comply with segregation laws, and i’m willing to bet you don’t support segregation.

      Guess I’ll just wrap it up by saying that is a well-known fact that vast majority of cops are pro-gun, pro second amendment, have a great interest in guns and sites like this and oppose any forms of gun control

      Their personal stance on gun control is irrelevant. If the politicians pass gun control, the police will do their job and grab our guns. Even though you are seemingly pro 2A, how many guns have you confiscated in youre career? How about your pro-2A coworkers?

      Dont give me any BS about how someone may have been breaking the law in some way, and it was therefor ok to confiscate them. If someone breaks the law, do they lose their 1A rights?

      I have walked away from it thinking “God, I cant stand to read such blatant anti-cop stuff while reading another, otherwise great article about guns”

      When has there been a anti-cop comment in a gun review article here? I think those are limited to the other article types.

      • FLAME DELETED

        I have arrested dozens and dozens of people with illegal guns, serial numbers scratched off, carrying when they are convicts and prohibited, stolen guns,..etc. I have no mercy or compassion for them. You do?

        “Breaking the law in some way?”…the hell is that supposed to mean? You violate firearms laws, most times it s felony…not “in some way”. You act as if there is somehow legions of innocent people sitting in jail because of tough-guy bully cops arresting them for violating some minor gun law…..

        “What is wrong with being a criminal?”…. Fargo is a lawyer from what I understand. As such he and I both have respect for the law. We understand the importance of obeying it….even if we don’t agree with certain portions of it and we both acknowledge the fact that if you disobey it, you do so at your own peril. If you don’t like a certain law, then work to have it changed.

        FLAME DELETED

        And yes, 80 to 110k cops are members of the NRA and the cast majority all told are strong supporters of 2a, myself included. In 23 years of law enforcement I have never once met a cop who was anti-2a. Met a few with messed up prospective but overall in the end, all of the ones I worked with and dealt with believe strongly that the individual citizen has a god given right, far beyond the reach of law, to own firearms and defend themselves. And also that this is the best way to solve most inner city crime problems.

        Looks like your and many others here are turning this into an argument for not liking the fact that the same laws and rights that make you free also establishes a collective of authorities that keep tabs on that shit…..and you don;t like it. Well, I have dedicated my life to that establishment and take great pride in helping people, protecting those who were unable to protect themselves. And chasing down those who would do others harm.

        You can think of yourself as not needing such a service…as you attach yet another object to your black rifle…have fun, im all for it. But in the end, you don’t like law or law enforcers?….I hear there are many countries without very many laws or law enforcers on the African continent and other places . Go there and live out your dreams. In the mean time, we live in a society of laws…most of which regulate the government and many of which regulate the citizen, eat-shit if you don’t like it.

        Come to my jurisdiction and take the attitude of “Whats wrong with being a criminal?” …you an I or one of my brethren will likely meet face to face. Or , oh I don’t know…you could just obey the law like a decent human being and work hard, like I and others to change the ones you don’t like. I’ll take and face whichever you choose FLAME DELETED.

      • I have arrested dozens and dozens of people with illegal guns, serial numbers scratched off, carrying when they are convicts and prohibited, stolen guns,..etc. I have no mercy or compassion for them…. all of the [LEOs] ones I worked with and dealt with believe strongly that the individual citizen has a god given right, far beyond the reach of law, to own firearms and defend themselves.

        What is wrong with a gun w/o a serial number? What is wrong with a felon with a gun? Chances are those felons are in greater danger than a OFWG here will ever be. If you belive that all citizens have a god given right to keep and bear firearms, then why did you arrest those you mentioned and grab their guns?

        If you don’t like a certain law, then work to have it changed.

        By participating the process you legitamize those “bad” laws. I would rather not lend my voice to the politicians.

        In 23 years of law enforcement I have never once met a cop who was anti-2a.

        Go on youtube, there are plenty of videos of LEOs grabbing guns from people who open carry.

        As such he and I both have respect for the law. We understand the importance of obeying it

        Then why do police require qualified immunity to do their job? If you respect the law, then certainly you shouldnt be immune from it.

        Looks like your and many others here are turning this into an argument for not liking the fact that the same laws and rights that make you free

        Laws by their very definition inhibit freedom. They do not grant it, nor do they grant rights. Rights are inherent.

        ?….I hear there are many countries without very many laws or law enforcers on the African continent and other places

        It is well known here that i’m not a fan of blacks either. Where else is there? Anarctica?

        In the mean time, we live in a society of laws…most of which regulate the government and many of which regulate the citizen

        You have it backwards, most regulate citizens, few regulate the government.

  57. This IS America; As citizens we are expected to debate EVERY issue within our society. Those who we bestow special responsibilitys too are citizens as well, nothing more, and as citizens they too are expected to add thier input, without intimidation, in the community that they live. Why do cops no longer live in the community where they operate, Criminal intimidation,, That was why Police Barracks were invented.

  59. The one thing that I can add to this discussion is that few things in public life stir my ire as much as the notion that police officers know guns better than private citizens who keep guns.

    In my own state one regularly finds that guns laws contain exemptions for “police and (this is the part that really sticks in my craw) former police.” There appears to exist a deep-seated belief that private citizens are less trustworthy than police when handling guns.

    I believe that TTAG’s critical gaze upon all gun handling everywhere promotes the idea that safe and effecting gun use is not the exclusive province of law enforcement and military; that, true to our uniquely American culture, here a private citizen can transform himself or herself by dint of effort and study into an expert user of guns. This wealth of knowledge, experience, and capability is unknown in any other country on Earth, and TTAG seeks to energize this extraordinary community of gun kenners so that it might provide the maximum benefit to our individual (and thereby collective safety) leading us to a better, more peaceful world.

    Thanks you, Robert and all of the TTAG writers. It’s working.

  60. When ya’ll drive through Texas…ever now and then you will notice a sign on the side of the highway. It will read ” Don’t Mess With Texas”

  61. Is TTAG anti-cop? Yes, you admitted as much, Robert. Are there valid reasons why it’s anti-cop? Well, reasonable people could disagree, but your reasons are not insane. So good on both counts.

    As to your question of more “fair and balanced”… and then seeing the comments from LEO’s and others who think that TTAG needs to highlight good cops from time to time, or talk about how difficult it is to do the dangerous work of being a copy… I have a suggestion.

    One or more of you LEO’s needs to step up and start writing regularly for TTAG. Let’s hear from you how difficult it is, how you handled a touchy situation with professionalism and class, how you feel about stupid laws you are forced to enforce, etc. Let’s hear about the heroic cop doing the right thing. Let’s hear about training routines (or lack thereof) and management and city politics. Let’s hear more about that “thin blue line” from someone who has to walk it every day. Write anonymously if you have to; I’m sure Robert would treat you as a source and allow you to do just that. TTAG is the most popular firearms blog in the world; if you have that sort of platform to get your message of “We’re not all thugs” out to people who are suspicious of you… why wouldn’t you?

    And Robert, you can promise to publish those posts from Anonymous, a police officer in an unnamed jurisdiction. There — we have fair and balanced now.

    A couple of other points:

    One thing I would like to see more from TTAG is going beyond bashing the individual officer. For example, I found the post on the Empire State Building shooting to be incredibly informative because it touched on two things I didn’t know: the 12-lb trigger of their duty weapons (not their fault, but the fault of the politicians) and the overall lack of training. As a citizen, I’m not that interested in the misdeeds of some IGOTD cop somewhere. I’m far more interested in the systemic problems that lead to the IGOTD cop action.

    This is something both TTAG and the LEO readers can collaborate on. I’d like to know some of the policies that the LEO’s themselves dislike, and why they dislike them. I’d like to know how much training the LEO’s get, if they think it’s adequate, and if not, what they’d like to have. When TTAG bashes on the militarization of our police forces (which troubles me as well), I’d like to know what I, as a citizen, should think about that issue from both LEO’s and non-LEO’s here.

    Go beyond the headline story; dig in a bit and expose the underlying issues and problems. That’s where TTAG shines, IMHO, and why I keep coming back. (Well, that and the awesome gun reviews.)

    —

    I have my own reasons for being anti-cop. Being a minority growing up in Long Island, so many of the racist meatheads who would harass me at school ended up becoming… you guessed it, cops. (Amusing thing is that many of the other racist ***** ended up joining the Mob.) Sorry, maybe the Nassau and Suffolk County police have some great men and women working there; I just haven’t met one, and I know too much about what some of those officers were like as 17-year olds.

    On the other hand, now that I’ve moved to Texas… every single policeman I’ve encountered thus far has been stellar. Courteous, professional, strong defenders of individual liberty, seeing themselves in the communities they police… it’s quite amazing.

    —

    One side issue that’s relevant here is that only bad cop stories make the news. There’s a reason for it. Once upon a time, being a reporter was a blue collar job, just like being a cop. A lot of reporters started out on the city desk working the crappy local crime beat, and got to know cops personally. Today? Reporters are white collar professionals with degrees from Columbia School of Journalism and think of themselves as one of the anointed elite, while police are still blue collar folks for the most part.

    If you think cops look down on “civilians”, you ought to hear sometimes what journalists think of cops off-camera, off-page.

    The solution, then, is for the LEO community to do a little more proactive PR highlighting the good cops amongst them. Do not, do not, do not rely on the JournoLists to do that for you. Sites like TTAG are a great outlet for stories the rest of us will never get to hear, because the reporter couldn’t give a damn about them.

    Enough rambling. Thanks for what you do, TTAG.

      • I think that’s a wonderful idea. There are plenty of eloquent former and current police officers in this comment section.

    • Excellent post and very astute observation.

      “One side issue that’s relevant here is that only bad cop stories make the news. There’s a reason for it. Once upon a time, being a reporter was a blue collar job, just like being a cop. A lot of reporters started out on the city desk working the crappy local crime beat, and got to know cops personally. Today? Reporters are white collar professionals with degrees from Columbia School of Journalism and think of themselves as one of the anointed elite, while police are still blue collar folks for the most part.”

  62. Is it really such a bad thing to highlight these instances when there’s so much at stake? NO

    Should I temper these editorial outbursts with pro-cop firearms-related stories? Maybe

    Is TTAG under an obligation to be fair and balanced in our cop coverage? No

  64. I might have to take you up on that…maybe we should discuss it sometime. Of course, you buy the apples and the beer, unless Ralph wants to chip in.

  65. First, my personal bias: I feel that police are generally ineffective in their stated purpose. Their mission, as written, is to “Protect and serve” the people of their respective communities. I have met intelligent, polite, hard working policemen. I have met slimy worthless dishonest crooks who wear the same uniform. Yesterday a friend related witnessing an incident in which police went far beyond their authority to “scare some kids”. If a responsible citizen had acted in a similar manner, he would be in jail today. I see from this and my own experiences that there exists a double standard between “proper police behavior” and “proper citizen behavior”. I have many nagging questions, such as “how can you claim to be unbiased when my speeding ticket goes to your department / your city treasury?” but that is an argument for another day. Suffice it to say that I am not wholly in support of Bloomberg’s (or anyone’s) storm troopers.

    TTAG vs Police: If a peace officer uses his service pistol to defend his own or another’s life, that is a defensive gun use. If a citizen does the same, it is a defensive gun use. If a peace officer deserves an IGOTD, he should get it just the same. That said, it is to be presumed that a peace officer has been trained in the safe handling of firearms as well as the idiosyncrasies of “law”. Therefore, it is absolutely essential to call out those instances where either a citizen or a peace officer has acted wrongly. It is equally important to call out those instances when either a citizen or a peace officer has acted heroically. It is especially important to strive to remain impartial in this bigoted world, as this is a firearms related site and therefore a resource for the educated minority who see past the rhetoric of the greedy.

  66. “You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas”…David Crockett

    Good thing we didn’t have a bunch from NYC or MA defending the Alamo…we’d all be drinking banned sodas.

  67. Don’t change a thing. Our LE community has changed for the worse over the last 50 years. As a vendor to the LE community for 40 years, I have met great cops, and some very poor ones. The attitude of the officer on the street comes from the TOP. One of the best and most laid back departments I ever worked with was a true Department of Public Safety. Monday you are a cop, Tuesday a Fire Fighter, Wednesday an EMT or Paramedic. All Patrol cars carried a drug box, defibrillator, and fire turn out gear. The comments were ” I’m not going to shoot you. If I do, I have to fix you. I’m going to try to talk you into doing what I want.” One of the worst had a Chief that was a Retired Marine MP officer. He could have given A$$ Hole lessons at the local community college. His officers had the same attitude. One of my sons friends went to there to work. Before his probation period was up he was let go. He was told he was “to nice.” Keep telling it like it is.

  68. Well put. And like many others have commented, I am sure there are more “good” cops than bad cops, but now in our country – in many ways – enforcing the law is not good – it’s evil, because we have many evil laws. And “contempt of cop” seems to have trumped individual freedoms when interacting with cops. And don’t get started on no knock raids and “revenuer” traffic stops.

  69. Bad law enforcement and bad laws always hurt more than good cops and laws will feel good. Remember Rubey Ridge and how Vicky got a 50cal in the eye by a sniper because her husband was baited into cutting down the barrel of a shotgun. ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms) are supposed to be fun. We must watch law enforcement like a hawk.

  70. I have at times noticed a tendency to be more forgiving of armed citizens than of police, and it has made me cringe at least once before, as I got the distinct vibe of a double standard at work. That being said, I wouldn’t stop the articles. I’d just make more of an effort to treat both LEOs and citizens equally when criticizing their individual actions. Of course, it’s still open season on cops whom fall under all your aforementioned criticisms.

  71. From the movie “Barfly”:

    Wanda: “I hate the police, don’t you?”
    Henry: “I don’t know, but I seem to feel better when they’re not around.”

  72. I really don’t think that TTAG is anti-cop. You DO shine a light on the police caught doing stupid/illegal/immoral stuff. But I recall seeing stories here that were also pro-law enforcement. Some of the folks that post on certain threads are definitely anti-cop, some are anti-government, that is their perogative. I personally have had both good and bad encounters with LEOs. Thankfully, the good experiences FAR out number the bad, and truth be known, the few “bad” experiences I had were mostly my own damn fault. As I’ve said, I’ve met good and bad LEOs, good and bad teachers, good and bad lawyers, good and bad clergy, etc. We like to think of folks in certain professions as being better than the average human because we want them to be better, but the reality is that they suffer the same flaws as us all. Just my opinion, but I think bad police officers get judged extra harshly by the public because the police are among the very few groups of people that have the power of life and death in their hands every day. I may not like the embezzling bank accountant for emptying my savings, or the prostitute that lives down the street, but they won’t kick in my door with a drawn gun, shoot my dog, and handcuff me to only find out they are at the wrong house. Fear leads to distrust, something that I guess most police have to deal with.

  73. Given that the site is ‘THE TRUTH about guns” (and gun owners) I would say that a certain amount of balance is needed. I wouldn’t advocate for tempering the criticisms towards the police but rather publish articles that highlight the good guys being good guys. (not ‘cop saves kitten’ stuff, but ‘local police chief refuses to arrest home defender’ type of stuff) While there are a lot of LEOs who earn our ire, I believe that like most people, they are generally good (if misled or trapped by the system) so we should give them their fair shake too.

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