Mea culpa. I recently posted an article — since banished to the black hole — recommending that 1911 owners switch off their gun’s external safety every time they withdraw the firearm from their holster. Gun gurus were appalled. And rightly so. As Rob Pincus explained it to me, you’re an idiot.
The only time you should switch off the 1911’s safety is when you’re putting the gun’s sights on target. Same goes for any firearm with an external safety. Anything more is less safe, increasing the dangers of a negligent discharge astronomically.
I apologize for my mistake. I have no excuse, just an explanation.
I was worried that I’d fail to disengage the safety in a defensive gun use if I didn’t create “muscle memory” by switching off the Wilson’s external safety whenever I unholstered.
The 1911, like all personal defense guns, benefits from intelligent use and constant, effective training. To which I have returned. My bad.
Congratulations and kudos to you for backing off that bad post.
I think Mr Farago should have just amended the original post.
Looks like some “face saving” by deleting the embarassing post.
Emulating “the Hillary” . Not his finest moment.
I agree with you not Pincus. That’s the reason we keep our finger off the trigger. Duh.
Hear, hear! Safety levers are stupid, and John Moses Browning was a stone cold idiot for putting one on a gun. Finger off trigger is enough, and there is just no reason for redundancy when it comes to safety.
Now, after my daily prayer and homage to Gaston Glock, I’m going to go rip the safety levers off all my shotguns and rifles.
I like the cut of your jib.
@ Curtis in IL, yeah….safety levers are not for the weak minded and faint of heart.
Browning only added the switch safety to get a government contract. The original design didn’t have one and he didn’t think it was necessary.
That was my thoughts. What about a Glock? It’s not ok to drop the safety on a 1911 but it’s ok to draw one without that safety?
glocks actually have a total of THREE (3) redundant safeties.
Four if you count the box, Five if you count the case at the LGS, Six is you count the FedEx delivery truck, Seven if you count the import impound yard’s Connex container, Eight if you count the freighter, Nine if you count. . .
The safest GLOCK is one you didn’t buy.
This message brought to you by BERETTA, The ARMY didn’t choose our new pistol model, but that’s because they are the ARMY (eye roll). : )
/sarc
(just in case)
Ah yes, the glock is so safe because it has three safeties. Two of those safeties are pointless and one of them is a feature on 90% of modern guns. The trigger safety is idiotic, you can’t pull the trigger unless you pull the trigger. Has that stopped one single discharge ever? The second is the fact that the striker is at a half cock. The only real difference that makes is that the trigger pull is slightly shittier. The firing pin safety is a great idea as a drop safety, so much so that it is included on 80 series 1911s.
Exactly. You should actually disengage the safety as soon as the web of your hand contacts the grip safety. A proper grip on a 1911 style firearm is both thumbs above the safety and parallel to the slide. Therefore, it is actually impossible to properly draw a 1911 without disengaging the safety. Just ask any USPSA Open competitor–who has certainly put thousands more rounds downrange then most people who disagree with this basic principle. Your finger is the only real safety: keep it off the trigger until the muzzle is on target and you are sure you want to destroy whatever you are pointed at.
I agree with your facts, though the facts become even more urgent when a perp, not a target, has the drop on you.
No. You are wrong. Robert’s original post was no different than arguing – “well I take the safety off my loaded hunting rifle every time I pull it out of the truck so I don’t forget”. CAN you go through life always taking off the 1911’s safety and not hurting anybody because you remember rule 2? Yes probably. Still not the right approach. And yes, for Glocks it IS different because of longer heavier travel on the trigger and the “half cocked” normal state of the sear.
And I write that with nothing but admiration overall for Robert because of this site.
totally, This post-pulling and intranex bashing should stem from the advocacy of pilling the trigger every time you draw your weapon. not simply the disengagement of an external safety
Glad you are awake now. 🙂
Even in combat the axiom stands. Of course, in combat the safety is coming off almost immediately as the weapon is elevated to select a target. You’re not at the range… you’re in survival mode.
Based on the many, many times at “action shooting events” I’ve seen 1911 guys draw then fumble before they shoot I’d say Pincus is wrong. But these were regular guys not operators, operating operationally. But I’m not a fan of safeties or hammers cocked while holstered. DA/SA for me.
@ Owen, so? Those dudes that fumble the easy manipulation are doing it wrong – not Pincus.
Every movement between you and engaging your target complicates the matter and adds more ways it can go wrong.
I never carry with the safety on. I carry an FNX .45 which has a double/single action trigger system. For safety, I only carry it with the hammer cocked when it’s in a holster that has a strap I can put between the hammer and the firing pin. I figure that, if I draw it, I’m going to want to fire it off as soon as possible.
Keep in mind, Pincus does not like 1911s. He is a striker-fired guy all the way. The pics of failed 1911s on his twitter feed shows his dislike of the weapon, so you need to take what he says with a grain of salt. As with all things, “your mileage may vary”.
The 1911 requires protocols which striker-fired guns do not. You’ve clearly hit on a source of the conflicting thoughts.
I don’t know anything much about Pincus, but quickly found he is deeply committed to the ‘combat’ firearms training industry. I tried to identify his combat experience, but simply couldn’t find it spelled out on his I.C.E. Co. web pages. I did find the assertion that he and his company, I.C.E., are “a sole source provider to 10th Group Army Special Forces for ‘Extreme Close Quarters Counter Ambush training’.” I assume, therefore, that I’ll get to the combat bit on some other page. Never heard much about SF using pistols defensively, actually. Inserted and extracted them in the days before the got their own Air Force…. Suppressed pistols for offense, sure. Perhaps times have changed that much? Super pistols? Hard to believe, actually.
@roping down
Found Pincus on LinkedIn, he was a 2LT, USA and also a patrol cop for 2 years. Not sure if he had actual combat experience, but he does at least have police/military and an admittedly extensive amount of training/trigger time. Not a fan, but he’s been training long enough that he has the skills to prepare others. I’ve not personally seen him misrepresent his experience, and that’s the main thing.
well good on your for admitting your mistake, publicly. kudos.
I don’t do 1911 often (although that is a boating fire at sea candidate of mine).
I don’t remember if I commented, if I did, it was probably something stupid, but I do remember thinking that I would at least dry demo it for myself, and further, I remember that it did click something else “on” in my head that regardless of any following of that instruction, that I would endeavor to at least be “as deliberate” anytime I unholstered a weapon.
So, Thank you. btw, Pincus is mean.
Pincus tells it like it is, not the special snowflake version.
Hey man, the truth hurts both ways. Don’t let that calm/shiney headed professional stuff fool you. Pincus is mean.
; )
^^^^THIS +1
Why’s everyone picking on poor Lil Pincus? !?
Because he’s a class A tool.
I was attempting sarcasm, and have never met the man.
For the record, Miculek is way meaner.
; )
If you are removing the gun from a holster for self defense then disengage the safety and keep your finger off trigger until you are ready to shoot. If I’m on target I don’t want to have disengage the safety.
I run a 1911 and the safety stays on to low ready, anything “up” from low ready and the safety is off and the gun is ready to go.
That works.
I don’t own or carry a handgun yet so I’m not carved-in-stone as others about safety on or off.
I don’t get the reasoning behind being paranoid about having a saftey. It’s not like having a safety is some work of modern art that requires a masters degree to make it flip. It’s a fuckin switch. I’ve used fire arms with and without flip safeties my entire life and honestly I can’t tell you witch is faster. Whatever it is just train with and don’t be so damn paranoid.
@ Hank, you have to remember, men these days are not made of very sturdy material…safeties to them are a sheer mystery.
I like the safety on the Mosin, if you are manly enough to engage it then you probably dont need it.
You mean that wasn’t the trigger for archers and I’ve been doing it wrong all this time?
Tom
If I’m pulling a gun then the safety, if it has one, is going off- because I’m pulling it for a reason.
That said, I don’t carry a 1911 so the triggers on my carry guns are a bit heavier.
Posting coming from tdvinna stating 1911 safeties shoul never be used in 1…2…3…
I never said that. In fact, I specifically said that you always engage it when handling the pistol when it is out of the holster. All this shows is that you are a first class dolt.
And I might as well get this one out here instead of a separate post. Rob Pincus says the safety should stay on any pistol so equipped until the gun is on target. Well, I bought a bargain priced XD 45 service from cheaper than dirt (prior to Newtown) and when I got it I found out why it was a bargain — it had an external safety and nobody wanted.. So according to Rob I should keep the safety on because it has one. So that must mean the regular XD is unsafe. Always be carefull about making generalizations.
I hope this discussion has been helpful to you. Now that you have discovered that many 1911 users share my philosophy of use perhaps you will learn that people who disagree with you might know more than you about armed self defense.
I use a Colt1911 many years, and every time I draw disengage the safety off, I never got a negligent discharge, I completely disagree with Pincus.
I agree. It’s a matter of preference really. Saying pincus is right without a rational argument is an appeal to authority fallacy.
Before there was Pincus there were dozens and dozens of instructors making a name for themselves with different styles. How many different techniques have been taught for the 1911 over the last 100 years? Is Rob Pincus the end of the training process or will we be seeing another dozen different styles for the same exact weapon. I think as gun owners we tend to way over think the process regarding training. In any of the training I’ve ever seen I have yet to see how to hold your toddler and shield your wife or elderly parents from a threat. The micro detail training we get wrapped up in we get lost in why we carry in the first place. We are not a one man army and shouldn’t be training like it.
We did a whole DVD on the topic of “Shooting in Defense of Others” many years ago. You can find t on my website. There is also info on these issues at http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com for free.
My old man told me you were supposed to ride the safety off when you draw but what did he know? He was just some dumbass WWII E-5 airborne infantry guy.
@ tdiinva, Hey, that’s fine for combat in WW2…not so much for 2016 civilian life.
As I read through the responses there are a lot of us who disagree. When you spend a lot of time on 1911s you learn to keep your finger off the trigger until you need to pull it.
@ tdiinva, Brother, I’ve been carrying the 1911 around the world for the better part of 20 years. I know what I’m talking about. But you go ahead and do it your old man’s way. No worries. As for those that disagree, trust me, I won’t lose any sleep over it.
I’ve been using them for 40+ years so I feel comfortable handling it the old Army way
This was an after thought to your first post:
An armed citzen can only legally draw his gun if he perceives an imminent threat of death or grevious bodily harm. Drawing a gun for any other reason is illegal brandishing. So there isn’t a whole lot of difference between 1944 and 2016 after all If you have no legal justification for firing the gun, you have no legal justification for drawing it.
@ tdiinva, Sure there are times when a civilian may elect to pull a pistol when there is not a target readily available though there may be a threat. Ever hear of an active shooter? A home invasion? Come on…
All of which meet the criteria of imminent tbreat.
@ tdiinva, I understand bro. And like I said, proper use of the safety is NOT for the weak minded or the scared. Drive on.
Have to disagree with Pincus. If I’m pulling my gun then I’m in danger and I want the thing in action. I’ve carried a commander length 1911 almost everyday for the last 8 years. I train to disengage the safety while drawing and I’ve never had a ND with it. That’s why you keep your finger OFF the trigger until you shoot.
But then again I’m not a operator or trainer or internet celebrity so my opinion is null and void.
That’s because you have not worked under stress.
All kinds of mental and physical tasks get harder and less likely to happen under the extreme stress of a life threatening encounter.
Safeties should not be disengaged until the gun is on target. Finger should not be on the trigger until you have made to decision to destroy want the gun is pointing at.
I come at this from exactly the opposite POV.
IMHO, safeties should never be engaged while carrying. Doing so is giving Mr. Murphy a written invitation to come and screw with you when life itself is on the line.
The only time to use a manual safety is just before, during or just after administrative handling.
Every professional instructor disagrees with you for a damn good reason.
Rabbi,
It’s hogwash to say that every pro instructor says to keep the safety on until you are on target. Our agency, for example, used to run Smith 4006s with the safety off. I pocket carry my Smith Bodyguard .380 with the safety off.
Sure, on 1911s, most will say to carry cocked and locked. Personally, I don’t carry any holstered handguns with the safety on. Revolvers don’t even have safeties (unless you count that hideous Smith and Wesson contraption).
Rabbi:
Let’s assume for a second that you’re assertion is correct, which it’s not, but let’s assume it is:
Then every professional instructor is a retard. A complete and utter retard and their advice should be ignored and their creds stripped from them.
Let’s break this down.
Does a gun in a properly made and maintained holster “just go off”? No.
Does a gun in your hand “just go off”? No.
Does a gun in a proper holster ever point at you during your draw stroke? No. (Sorry appendix carriers).
Does a gun ever, in the course of reholstering “just go off”? No.
Does a gun in your hand ever point at an object or person you don’t point it at? No.
Does a modern gun that’s properly maintained go off without it’s trigger being pulled? No.
A gun never “just goes off”.
So what does carrying with the safety on do for you? Does it prevent accidents? No, you prevent accidents by not being a retard and keeping your booger hook off the bang switch until you’re on target. If you don’t trust yourself to draw and keep a gun at the low ready without shooting an innocent person because shit just hit the fan in Wally World you shouldn’t be carrying a gun.
There is literally 0 reason to carry with the safety on. 0 reason. Any ND here is 100% on you being retarded because unless there is an actual threat what the fuck are you doing drawing your pistol in the first place? All you’re doing by engaging that safety is adding an extra step that you can screw up in the event you actually need the gun. KISS. Learn it, live it.
You don’t have to forget the safety, you simply miss or fail to fully disengage the safety because your hands are flippers. Now your gun is a melee weapon and you don’t know it until it doesn’t fire. Go put your hands in a bucket of ice water for 10 minutes, then, UNDER STRESS make sure you hit that safety 100% of the time and put rounds on target. You won’t come close. “Muscle memory” is one thing, wet or blood soaked hands and limited feeling in your hands is a whole other kettle of fish from what you do on the range. You cannot simulate the stress of a 2-way range on a one-way range. You simply can’t.
You’re worried about drawing your pistol in a gunfight and shooting the wrong person because the safety isn’t on? You literally shouldn’t be carrying a gun. You have to fuck up so many times over for that to happen that you’d have to be retarded. You’d have to 1) point the gun at the wrong person and 2) pull the trigger. If you’re stupid enough to do that no manual safety is going to save you because you’re a panicky person that’s going to shoot the first thing that moves no matter what. If you screw up during any rational draw you shoot the floor. Someone might catch a fragment but that’s a minimal risk compared to the active threat you’re drawing to fire upon, which if it doesn’t exist, means your drawing your gun for no reason and need a brick to the head.
By all means, use that safety for administrative handling. If you know you’re going to draw when there is no threat, engage the safety before drawing to enhance safety. If you’re holstering, put the safety on. Then take it off once the gun is secure in the holster so that there isn’t an added layer of things to do between you and a successful DGU. It’s not going to go off in the holster.
Let’s be really, really, really real here. I’m no Glock fanboy but I know why they were designed the way they are: because cops were forgetting to disengage, or failing to disengage, their safeties and it was getting cops killed.
Carrying with the safety on is akin to writing a letter to Mr. Murphy begging him to come kick you in the dick. It’s outright stupid. You’re either John Travolta or you don’t need that manual safety engaged while carrying.
@ strych9, “Let’s be really, really, really real here. I’m no Glock fanboy but I know why they were designed the way they are: because cops were forgetting to disengage, or failing to disengage, their safeties and it was getting cops killed.
Carrying with the safety on is akin to writing a letter to Mr. Murphy begging him to come kick you in the dick. It’s outright stupid.”
This is perhaps the stupidest thing I have ever read on the errornet. Pure dee IGNORANT.
What strych said, with one exception: Gaston paid no attention to law enforcement when designing his pistol. He had the Austrian military contract in mind.
But it’s irrelevant, given the point of strychs rant.
Anner:
Fair point. I misspoke.
The system was not developed because they wanted to avoid the problem, but it was a major selling point that was heavily stressed by the company in attempting to get police department contracts.
In that stressing they pointed out the officers who were found dead with their weapon on safe and pointed out that the threat of drawing, aiming and attempting to fire with the safety on and subsequently getting shot because your weapon failed to fire (the safety worked) was removed by using a Glock.
@El Mac:
I’ll take comfort that nearly every one of your posts is a runner up.
You folks that carry with a safety on in the holster are either piss poor at your handling, afraid of gremlins, carrying an unsafe gun or knowingly incompetent in your handling.
There are no other excuses. Not a single person has given me an argument to counter this.
@ strych9, as I’ve said before…a gun with a safety ain’t for the weak minded.
Rabbi,
There are multiple schools of thought. Some are in favor of keeping the safety on until the last moment, while others say click the safety off as you clear the leather.
To say every major instructor agrees with one way is complete BS. Here we have Pincus that says it should stay on, and Gunsite is in favor of clicking it off early.
My school of thought is this:
The only reason to have a gun on safe in a holster is because you’re afraid gremlins are going to attack and your gun is “just going to go off” while holstered. Other than that I see no possible reason to support the idea of carrying the gun (in a proper holster mind you) with the safety engaged. If you can’t keep your finger off the fun switch then you shouldn’t be carrying until you’ve learned how to not touch the trigger.
That’s just MHO, but yes, I do view people who carry with the safety on as either knowingly inept, fearful or silly. YMMV.
Well you know what they say about opinions?
For certain guns I would never use the safety. Namely DA/SA guns with a safety. I feel it is unimportant.
For other guns it depends on what it is, and how it is being used. 1911 and 2011 safety on when holstered loaded.
PPGMD:
Why? What benefit does that have? Is the gun going to go off in your holster?
Seriously explain to me the logic of inserting an extra step into the process of drawing, aiming and firing a gun to stop a BG. Why add a forth step? What possible reason is there for that? It totally violates the KISS principle unless an off-safe 1911 is unsafe in your holster in which case, why are you carrying it?
I respect the anti-safety people, and I am against safeties on guns that don’t need them like a factory striker gun, or any true double action guns. But the 1911 has such a short trigger pull that having a thumb safety on it isn’t a bad idea.
Nor is it a huge deal because it adds absolutely zero to my draw times on 1911s, they are so perfectly placed and large. Also I’ve never not disengaged it.
And don’t give me the “Under stress you won’t disengage it.” I’ve practiced it so many times it is automatic. Just like a tap rack.
You can make whatever claims you want about your tap-rack abilities. It’s immaterial.
Put your hands in an ice bucket for 10 minutes and let me run you through some drills. You’ll miss that safety at least once. But again, besides the point.
John Moses Browning didn’t think the gun needed an external safety so you’re arguing with him, the designer of the gun.
strych9; the safety keeps the firearm from going out of battery when being placed into the holster. It also prevents the firearm from discharging is something snares the trigger while holstering. It also is another layer of safety when you are removing (not drawing) the firearm from the holster. And it is also and extremely good idea to get into the habit of disengaging the safety while drawing regardless of how you typically carry, as the safety may be engaged when you could have sworn it was off.
strych9,
We are all familiar with the Glock incident (possibly appocryphal) of the user holstering and catching a string from his windbreaker on the trigger, causing the gun to fire. Were that to happen with a 1911, and the thumb safety disengaged after holstering, the gun will fire. The thumb safety is just a mechanical block the prevents the sear from disengaging from the hammer. it does not require a trigger reset after disengaging. Try it at the range. Engage the thumb safety, take aim, squeeze the trigger, and then disengage the safety. Bang.
If I may politely ask, when has Pincus worked under intense stress? I couldn’t find a citation about that, though I did look. I assume the phrase means active extended combat, or at the very least experiencing a few nearly-successful ambushes by a perp armed with a firearm. This board does have a few who’ve been through that mill.
I would agree that muscle memory is a good thing. I’ve been told by one of those operators that you should unholster and holster the gun the same way, thereby increasing the repetition and decreasing the time until the muscle memory is “set”, also when presenting the gun it should be presented in a lower ready state, pointed in a safe direction with the finger off the trigger. Why? Muscle memory. There are 4 golden rules for gun safety and not one says the gun’s safety should be on unless acquiring a target. Using those 4 rules an ND should not happen and if it does the damage should not be life threatening. So RF, your advice is not bad, as long as you acknowledge and insist on following those 4 rules. We don’t all have to agree on everything, but we should listen, think about the advice we’re given, and adjust accordingly.
Yes, but be careful with the whole do it the same way every time. Getting into the habit of extending your arms every time you shoot could be bad at very shot ranges.
I still fail to see the point in carrying the gun with the safety on. It’s not going to “just go off” and it has a grip safety.
Personally I don’t carry a 1911, I’m and SA/DA guy, but my method for dealing with this is as follows:
I carry with one in the pipe, hammer down, safety off. Always. No exceptions. I don’t care to accidentally miss the safety when I actually need the gun because my hands are wet or something.
However, for administrative handling I do use the safety. So for example, in the morning I pick up my USP. I put the safety on, I drop the mag, and inspect the chamber (on the night stand she has an empty chamber, waking up at 0300 to a housebreaking I don’t need to accidentally make a mistake while 3/4ths asleep). Once she’s verified to be clear I remove her extra bits, add on her thread protector, put a round in the chamber and let the slide close. Insert magazine, place weapon in holster and switch off the safety.
Now I know I’m carrying a 13 round revolver: draw, aim, *bang* no extra motions. There’s nothing to mishandle or forget, just draw, aim and shoot.
However, whenever I remove the gun from it’s holster for administrative reasons I flick the safety on first before removing it from it’s holster. That way if some unforeseen problem or unforeseen dumbassery happens the gun’s safety *should* reduce the chances the gun goes off when I don’t want it to.
Were I to carry a 1911 I would do the same thing. Holster the gun, take the safety off, rely on the grip safety during carry, use switch safety before unholstering for administrative handling. I really don’t see the difference safety-wise.
“…for want of a nail…”
I agree with you for SA/DA or SA only. For a 1911 the safety stays on until low ready.
I agree with Pincus 100%.
This is exactly why I won’t carry a defensive pistol with a manual safety — it’s just one more thing to forget and one more fine motor skill to perform.
In the old days (I am not actually that old) people were taught that safeties were not to be trusted. Gun safety did not, in any way, hinge on a manual, mechanical safety. Mechanisms could fail, was the mantra.
The questions around when in the stroke the safety is disengaged, when the finger enters the trigger guard, and if these are actions that become automatic or if they are left to the conscious mind, are good ones. I doubt that the answer to the safety question is as clear or uniform as when the sights hit the target. Frankly, I think that the safety comes off earlier.
From a practical perspective, I doubt that it is correct that the safety and the trigger should be operated simultaneously (i.e.: both when the sights hit the target). That said, I allow that people will have good reasons for adopting different methods.
If you are drawing a pistol in condition orange (or god forbid drawing it in red), the thumb safety should be off by the time the sights are on target. Once the threat is no longer imminent, put the thumb safety on safe.
If Pincus convinced you otherwise, then post his argument. Otherwise you just appear to be an easily swayed tool.
@ RetroG, bullcrap. The safety comes off ONLY when you have a target. If say you are responding to the other side of your house or upstairs or downstairs and there is NO target – yet – the safety stays on even though you may well have unholstered the weapon.
It’s really pretty easy. It ain’t rocket science.
Safety off except for administrative handling. Otherwise you’re asking for trouble.
No, you only put your finger on the trigger when you have identified a target. You put the safety back on after you have addressed the threat, prior to re-holstering. Follow the rules of gun safety and no one gets shot who doesn’t need to be shot. If you want to argue this, go to a Gunsite class with a 1911. I already did, and they convinced me through words and demonstrations.
@ RetroG, so you mean to tell me that Gunfight teaches their students to run around, gun in hand with the safety off, until they get ready to reholster?
El Mac: Have you ever been to a pistol IDPA or USPSA match or 3 gun? Because if you did you would lose it, because no one reengages the safety when “running around”
Dang dude, you are wrong again. If you don’t want the gun to go bang, keep your finger off the trigger. What was Pincus reasoning?
In my opinion (and only my opinion) I would tend to agree that careful folks should not disengage the safety lever on a 1911 until they are in the process of lining up their sights.
That doesn’t mean you have to wait forever. All you have to do is wait long enough so that you can’t blow a hole in your own damn foot.
The trigger on the 1911 is usually crisp, light, and short. Most DA/SA guns in DA mode, or DAO guns, are none of the above. Therefore, I carry my DA/SA with the safety off, the hammer down, and a chambered round. It won’t go bang unless I really want it to, but when I want it to, I don’t have to do anything special. The first round usually isn’t as accurate, but at normal self-defense range, it’s plenty good enough to get the job done.
I generally agree with Pincus (and Hank), but surely the safety should be off slightly before the sights are aligned on target. As one commenter from the previous article stated, “flicking off as you push towards the target.”
Another not so small detail: As you are bringing your pistol up onto target, have you already decided that you need to destroy it, or maybe you feel that a strong deterrence is appropriate at that moment? With latter and some significant distance to target maybe you should keep the safety on?
Is gun. Is not meant to be safe.
This! ^ WTF guys!
–I think in that use-case it is FTW, no?
What’s this safety you speak of… ?
I stand with you. Someone told you you were stupid cuz you have a different manual of arms? Tell them they are stupid for not having an open mind.
For a pistol, safety off after clearing leather. You shouldn’t draw the weapon when you are not morally and legally justified to shoot. You may choose not to shoot when the perp stops at gunpoint, but drawing means shooting, unless the perp willingly stops. Or else it’s morally and legally objectionable to draw to begin with.
For a rifle, safety off when brought to ready. Same as above.
Others are free to disagree, until they forget to switch off the safety in a gunfight. Oh, and I don’t mess with the safety during reloading or malfunction clearing.
What did you say? What if I slip and fall with the gun in hand? I keep the finger off the trigger. If it means that I HAVE TO choose between an AD, which MAY hit someone, and a dead trigger, which WILL get me killed, I pick the former any day. My life is a life, too.
Observe all safety rules, stay safe, and keep training. Unholster – safety off. Unless you are taking the gun off administratively.
I generally agree with you but I have a question.
If you’re going to switch the safety off when you draw, why did you have it engaged in the first place while the weapon was holstered?
Doing this makes no sense to me. It’s not like gremlins are going to invade your holster and make the gun go off while it’s in there. If you need it, you need it now and you need it to go bang. Carry with the safety off and click the safety to ON when you’re drawing in a situation where there is no threat (end of the day, cleaning etc) but carry with the safety off because it’s one less thing that can go wrong if you really need the gun.
As you pointed out “You shouldn’t draw the weapon when you are not morally and legally justified to shoot.” and since it’s not just gonna go off in the holster all willy nilly why would you bother to have it on safe when it’s holstered?
Thank you for having an open mind when there is no definitive standard of right or wrong.
As for why the safety, here’s my take:
let’s take the 1911 for an example. When the gun is loaded, safety DISengaged, pulling the trigger will push the sear nose out of engagement, releasing the hammer, firing the gun. The sear engagement is 0.018″ min to 0.024″ max. That’s the only thing stopping the gun from firing. The sear spring holds that in place, with a poundage of 50-80% of the 4lb trigger pull. That’s it.
The thumb safety, when applied, blocks the sear from moving, and it block the hammer from dropping, should the sear-hammer engagement surface fails. The grip safety blocks the trigger from moving back.
When the two safeties work together, 3 of the 4 elements (trigger, sear, hammer, firing pin) required to fire are blocked, making the gun safe. A firing pin safety exists on Series 80 pistols, and Swartz Safety-equipped pistols. It’s more of a liability than a safety as the timing is hard to get right, resulting in retarded firing pin movement, and thus, a click when you need a bang.
If you leave the thumb safety DISengaged, it’s possible, albeit hard, to have an AD if the gun falls out and hits the concrete, disturbing that 0.018″. I’ve never heard or seen it happen. But that little margin is unsettling.
On a Glock, however, 3 elements are required to fire (trigger, trigger bar, striker). The trigger is held by the blade safety and the trigger return spring. The trigger bar is confined by the trigger from moving back or forth. The striker is blocked by the striker block. And the striker is not cocked enough to ignite a primer unless the trigger is pulled. See? As long as you don’t pull the trigger on a Glock, it’s dead safe. Not so much with the 1911, or any other SAO pistol which offers the potential of an amazing trigger pull, at the sacrifice of safety-less readiness.
Regardless of ease, do you not still have to pull the trigger on a 1911 to make it fire?
Seems to me that in a holster this is impossible and as long as your finger isn’t on the trigger it’s equally impossible…
All I’m saying as this sounds like a lot of “Well, there’s black and white and I don’t know how my finger feels about that”.
If you holster the gun on safe and then take it off the potential for an ND is eliminated if the safety is on and functioning correctly when you holster. If the gun is in your hand you either want it to shoot (safety is a hindrance to that) or it’s administrative handling and you should have put the safety on before drawing.
I don’t see this as only two conditions, you have other options about when you safety and un-safety the firearm and they don’t have to be only on draw and holster. Once that’s considered there is no reason to carry the gun, in a holster for defensive purposes, with the safety on.
Sorry I don’t get the argument over this because it’s not a binary decision unless you make it one. When you have four choices and only choose to use two, you’re intentionally limiting your options because you either want to argue or… well maybe you’re not that smart.
Maybe I need to make a video on this because it seems like A LOT of people are not understanding what I’m saying.
@strych9
If you don’t perceive that there could reasonably be a “shock” that jarrs the delicate sear-hammer engagement, then for you, there’s definitely no point in applying the safety on an SAO gun. A lot of people do, but like I said, it’s a free country 🙂
If that’s the route you choose, I’d recommend running guns designed w/o the safety to begin with (striker-fired’s, DAO’s…). It’s much safer than an SAO like 1911 or hipower with the safety off.
“If you don’t perceive that there could reasonably be a “shock” that jarrs the delicate sear-hammer engagement…”
What kind of shit guns are you running? I can cock the hammer on any gun I own that has a hammer and throw it on the ground as hard as I want on concrete and the hammer will not drop.
What you’re basically saying is that a 1911 isn’t a safe gun to begin with.
@strych9
It’s as safe as a Glock with the safety on. It’s less safe than a Glock with the safety off. I’ve explained in my post why that is the case.
A Glock won’t fire when the trigger is not pulled. The same goes for a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, grip safety engaged.
But a Glock won’t fire when there’s a physical disturbance that’s enough to fire a 1911 with a disengaged thumb safety. Because theoretically the internal safety margin of a 1911 is much thinner than that of a Glock, which has the fire control group locked up at all times.
The grip safety of a 1911 has nothing to do with the sear, hammer, or the firing pin.
I already said you COULD be safe carrying a 1911 in Condition Zero if you so choose. I never said you were wrong.
There were a few, earlier posts that claimed JMB only added a thumb safety at the Army’s request. I had always thought the cavalry folks at Army had requested the grip safety.
Based on the mechanical aspects you described in this post, it seems JMB would have wanted the thumb safety from the outset. Given that the Colt 1903, 1908, P35 and other Browning designs had thumb safeties, but that most Browning designs lack grip safeties…
Anyway, thanks for the sear engagement and safety description.
As to the original article, I was taught by multiple instructors over the years, both military and LE, for 1911 and M9, to switch safety off during the press-out, but keep finger off trigger until sights start coming into view. If threat is not immediate or deescalates, or if maneuver is required, reengage safety.
I almost entirely agree with you (the AD/my life is a life thing is slightly confusing so I wont stamp that approved)
I agree with the initial posting. An out of the holster directly into the bedside safe is the only reason one would need to draw without sweeping off the safety and that is administrative so there is enough time to think about not sweeping it off in that case. When drawing at the range or in dry fire practice you should train like you want to fight which means sweeping the safety off during the draw.
Ps. Everyone is picking on pincus because he is kinda (extremely) douchey
Thanks!
As I understand it, people are against “unholster – safety off” because of the possibility of ADing the gun when the shooter somehow jars the trigger as a result of stress, being startled, or tripping. It’s definitely a possibility.
However, forgetting to take off the safety, if the shooter chooses NOT to “unholster – safety off”, presents the possibility of forgetting the safety when the threat warrants pulling the trigger.
In scenario one, the round MAY hit someone. In scenario two, the shooter WILL die or suffer seriously injuries. As all lives are created equal, I pick ONE instead of TWO, if one of them has to occur. Training, practice, and experience are the best means to avoid both, of course.
I’d have to say experience et. al. is the best way to deal with a manual safety. I had taken a proficiency test and I was in a lane with another shooter, whom I am sure was new to shooting. He had trouble with his firearm at first, eventually racking an unfired round out of the chamber, muzzling me, and then eventually figuring out that the safety was engaged. In terms of minute of bad guy, it was an eternity.
When you first learn to drive, you can drive safely enough, but it will take time to learn real proficiency. I believe it’s the same with firearms. It will take time to learn the ingrained knowledge to deal with a missed safety efficiently.
It can be a potentially problematic set of circumstances…new shooter doesn’t trust a firearm without a safety…but is least likely to be able to deal with a missed safety. New shooters (and not so new shooters) should understand that scenario should they choose to carry a firearm with a manual safety. Old shooters shouldn’t overthink it, but should keep addressing it in their training repertoire. But maybe not every nightly deholster.
I’d agree with Mr. Pincus in that a gun with the safety on, is safer, – for your target. That said I keep mine (on a Five SeveN) on, but only until I point the gun at a target. I don’t plan on pointing the gun at someone and not firing.
In the end, I suspect that I’d be less likely to die in a gun fight if I left it off pretty much all of the time though. I admit that I lack the courage of my convictions in that matter.
Take a lesson from Trump and never apologize especially when pressured by weenies, it makes you look like a”cuck”.
Like Sykes said decades ago a “safety” on a handgun should either be “pinned” or removed as it’s only an encumbrance (obstacle/impediment) to operation in an emergency.
Being a fan of the legacy of both Sykes and especially Fairbairn, I remember their views slightly differently, regarding the 1911. (Fairbarn was one of the first to put the 1911 into service across an entire large police force.) I remember them both advocating the pinning of the thumb safety, but not the taping of the grip safety. The grip safety does have the virtue of (often times) distinguishing between the rightful drawer of the pistol, as opposed a thug grabbing the pistol and trying to fire it without establishing a solid grip. I have no view on the matter.
I find the 1911 more suitable for military or SWAT use: the thing can legitimately be drawn before the instant of needed action, do to the nature of engaging with the enemy or assumed perp. A handgun which will more likely be drawn straight to firing (as went urgently surprised by a weapon, perp) is, I think, better built/holstered without a manual safety that requires some pre-firing action other than pulling the trigger. To me the thing speaks for itself.
I’ll go one step farther and file an objection against all this talk that says “don’t take the safety off until you’ve got the sights on target.” To such counsel I can only ask, “have you ever had to shoot a pistol or rifle to safe your life?” Even the best of the best (and equipped with a very fast sight, EOTech or Aimpoint) get their first shot off before seeing the threat through the sights. I sure as hell had that experience with metal sights on an M16A1. With a pistol engagement in civilian life I had the luxury of more distance and an incompetent attacker, and presentation was all that was required. If a gun is presented, or a knife close in, I will be point shooting first off, somewhat in the style described long ago by Fairbairn.
You got it right. In a quest to be more modern people have overthought this, manufacturers too (thanks to pressure from anti’s and lawsuits). As of today I’ve yet to see a hammer with a safety. Sykes and Fairbairn their wisdom of keeping it simple, not over-complicating things which is an imperative in a “high stress” situation, has been ignored.
I approach the 1911 safety a bit differently. I basically ride the safety. I was concerned about developing that habit until I saw videos from some world class shooters who do the same thing. Still probably a bit hard on gun.
What I do is, from the draw, my thumb is on top of the safety and there it stays. At the range I flip it off as I come on target and start sight alignment. Muscle memory from live and dry fire is that as my finger goes to the trigger, my thumb presses down on the safety. If it is on, it is now off. If it was off, no harm no foul. If I flip it back on while unholstered and hot like to move around the range for some reason, my thumb goes right back on top of it. I have been in intentionally stressed training, but have never been in a real life/death situation. I like to think that my training will prevent a dead trigger because of the safety is still on.
I always flip the safety on before holstering and that is the only time my thumbs stays under the safety. That’s easy to remember since holstering is a deliberate, controlled process and I actively think about flipping on the safety when I holster. I keep my thumb under the safety until it starts sliding into the holster and then I move my thumb to the back of the slide which takes palm pressure off the backstrap safety. Moving my thumb to the back of the slide is an established habit I developed carrying an XD IWB for many years before my first 1911.
As IdahoBoy wrote, the triggers on most 1911s are shorter and lighter than on OEM plastic wonders, as light or lighter than a Sig SA/DA in single action but with a fraction of the travel. IMO that puts an ND at higher risk when holstering if clothing or something was hanging down in the holster. Hence my increased caution at that time.
We all do things our own way within the basic gun safety rules. I don’t know that there is a right/wrong way. And certainly there are real differences between citizen SD carry and battlefield carry even if the basics are the same.
I’ll ask you this too since you seem to know quite a bit about it.
Once the gun is in the holster and being carried what is the safety concern about it not being on safe?
You shouldn’t be drawing the gun unless there’s a serious threat to you or someone else, in which case if you miss the safety you/someone else might be dead. What’s wrong with holstering the gun, and then taking the safety off, carrying it all day that way and then reaching down and putting the safety on just before you draw the gun out of the holster at the end of the day?
Why is anyone carrying with a safety on in the holster when this adds an extra thing you can screw up if you have a DGU? I’m not seeing the issue with carrying safety off here. Is the 1911 so unreliable that you fear it might go off in the holster?
I have no problem putting the gun to safe for administrative handling or for the act of holstering it but once it’s in the holster and you might need it in the blink of an eye, why add another unnecessary step to ventilating the BG?
Every properly carried pistol has at least one external safety. It’s called a holster.
That’s my point.
Every gun has two safeties IMHO. The holster and your brain. If you need more than that while it’s IN the holster you’re fucking up.
I carry a 1911 daily. When I draw from the holster the safety is OFF as I present the weapon. If I draw its to shoot. If I remove from the holster to swap pistols or swap mags I never finger the safety. But I pull a weapon to present it, the safety comes off. I dont care what Rob Whats His Name says.
@ Illinois, WOW! I bet you are a Gurkha! You have to draw blood every time you “slap leather” before you reholster that bad boy! Cool!
El Mac, nothing justifies such rudeness. Nothing he said implied drawing of blood. The habits of a CCW-stype pistol carrier do instruct us to plan training, protocols, on the assumption that we will not draw unless an instant from engagement. If the relevant law is different in your state, I’d be interested to know which state it is.
@ ropingdown, You gotta be kidding me.
El Mac, you over-interpreted his comment and made him out to mean “every time I draw my pistol it is because I’m going to actually shoot someone no matter what the circumstances that follow the draw.” He didn’t say that.
However, I give you full credit for being a gentleman,assuming that, like a gentleman, you never offend accidentally.
And I’m not going to discuss how I personally handle 1911s which were my first, but not my last, pistols. Gonna keep my head down. Laugh.
My father was a pre-war regular and that is how he was trained.
I disagree with Pincus. If he were right, no one should ever carry a handgun that lacked a thumb safety. I can’t believe that’s his position. If you’re in enough danger to justify drawing, you’re in enough danger to justify disengaging the safety. Just keep your finger off the trigger until you decide to shoot. Re-engaging the safety or dropping the hammer on an empty chamber is the first step in re-holstering.
I actually like thumb safeties because they help prevent unintended discharges. A Glock or any similar gun will fire when the trigger is pulled even if it’s not your finger that does the pulling. In the thirty years I’ve owned a Gold Cup, I have never tried to pull the trigger while the safety was engaged. Thumbing if off as soon as the muzzle is clear of my body is just part of the draw stroke. I think I would be more likely to forget how to draw from a retention holster.
The take up and trigger weight on the BHP is about the same as a Glock. (I actually measured that after Robert’s original post) I would never carry a Hi Power without the external safety engaged because it lacks a grip safety but if a Glock is safe than that must mean you don’t need to use the safety on a Hi Power.
I just read your comment. This is exactly what my father told me. He was a pre-war regular and that’s how he was trained.
I don’t really care much about the safety-or-not issue, but as someone who has been complaining for some time about TTAG’s habit of sending stories that end up being an embarrassment down the “memory hole”, let me say that I’m impressed we got an explanation this time, and hope it signals a change in policy to at least explain why stories get unceremoniously deleted.
I still wonder, from time to time, what happened to that family of hillbillies that all shot each other over an old shotgun or whatever the hell it was they were beefing about.
Rule #3 from the nssf says the following
3. Don’t Rely On Your Gun’s “Safety
http://www.nssf.org/safety/basics/
The gurus are breaking rule 3 by relying on a manual safety and by advocating reliance on the manual safety they are advocating for people to violate rule 3 and therefore their position is wrong despite being popular.
I’ve come to the belief that there is a world of pistol instructors who cannot separate their thoughts from the competition field. They really do not see the pistol as, if ever needed, needed very quickly, very badly, and without time to align the sights before first shot at the aggressor. I think this view of the first shot has long been settled among those experienced in the matter. Even the FBI has studied the issue and demonstrated for themselves that there is not time to get on the sights for the first shot when caught by surprise. The only study I’ve seen them post says when an agent comes under surprise attack, the first to fire a shot usually wins. There are several reasons for this.
I think the Games and the Three Day Training Courses have obstructed a clear view of what a pistol holstered in concealment is for, why one bothers with the thing despite being a non-cop, non-soldier, and non-gangster.
LOL I’ll just post my wife’s thoughts on this which she had while reading this comment section:
“Waaaaa a lot of people need their safety engaged while holstered so they can be in their safe space! What a bunch of fags. Have they ever heard of a revolver, a Glock or even a Star? I bet they all think Israeli carry is stupid too. Yeah, fags… [gets worse and deep into technicalities for 20+ minutes]… why do you even talk to these idiots? Gotta carry with the safety on is like appendix carry… no balls or soon to have no balls”.
Yeah, she said that about you guys. That’s a 28 year old Asian girl who owns more guns than you wanna think about and is as safe as you can get. However, full disclosure, she’s a Glock fangirl.
I laughed at the expense of many of you.
It was obvious from her first sentence that she was a Glock fantrans. No need to say it.
Farago manned up and actually did what the majority of novice and virtual small arms experts who frequent and regularly comment in this TTAG forum are incapable of, he admitted he didn’t know WTF he was talking about. Good job Robert!
The safety on a 1911 comes off as you draw. A safety is essential on your hand gun.
A handgun is a jack of all trades. It is also you last defense.
You have to hide a handgun quickly. You have to stuff in your belt.
You may have to hand it to your daughter or a child as you die.
To tell them this handgun has an “on switch” that you must use when you are safe – that when flipped down under yourthumb give you accurate, instant deadly results is an easy concept. ,
A Glock has a single – soldier’s safety – it’s holster. The rest of the world, your family, your neighbors don’ have that lazy choice.
A lazy, arrogant generation.
A 1911 with a 3 pd trigger is NOT a Glock. Some of these 1911s you just breathe on the trigger they go off. Comparing them to a Glock Safe Action is apples and oranges.
At least the 1911 guys can rest easy, Hillary wont bother with their fancy shooters because they only hold 7 or 8 rds.
Trigger weight is not an issue. The standard 1911 trigger is 5-6 pounds just like a Glock. A 3lb trigger is a competition trigger. It’s the almost non existent take up that gives anti-safeties the willies.
Re read my post. SOME of these 1911s have featherweight triggers. Agree that the slack (takeup) is the primary diff, but comparing a Glock factory trigger to any 1911 trigger is a non comparison, they have completely different dynamics, length of pull, feel, reset, etc etc…..
Just as sure as Hillary wears a colostomy bag this thread turned into a Glock bashing thread. Not sure why this is even a topic, flick the safety off a 1911 whenever you want, its still a heavy as a brick low capacity jam a matic. So there. Final word on the subject. No more room for discussion. Settled science, just like global warming.
I agree. This topic has been beaten to death.
I do have a Browning 1911-380 which comes in at 17.4 ozs. Not a brick.
This is a a heavily commented thread, but still I feel something is missing. I’ve carried 1911s for decades (though not exclusivly), and I carry cooked and locked safety on, wiping the safety off only when I’ve made the decision to shoot. That does mean I may turn off the safety while drawing, or at any other point in time after draw and before firing. It’s become instinctive, and generally I would wager I don’t recall the exact moment I switch the safety off in a given circumstance, but I’ve not attempted to fire with the safety on in literally the last 20 years. Why use the safety at all? Because sometimes the gun isn’t in a good holster, and you want that safety, sometimes the gun isn’t even on body, and the safety is very important, and one doesn’t want to forget to use the safety when needed, nor to discuss engage it when firing is needed. Thus the mindset and practice of disengaging the safety with the decision the shoot. It’s much like trigger discipline. Don’t touch the trigger until you mean to fire hasn’t gotten anyone killed because they forgot to press the trigger, and with training and mindset, neither will the safety. Without training on the safety, there is always the possibility of it being inadvertently activated, and without the habit of flipping it of, this coiuld prove problematic. My 2 cents: if you carry a gun with a safety, always use it as above. If you carry one without a safety, you have a somewhat different set of training and mindset issues to focus on.
I am not a Glock fanboy. I am actually a 1911 and a Glock fanboy.
I have shot Glocks and 1911s competitively for about 15 years. Not at a very high-level but just enough to know them both instinctively. On rare occasion when switching from a Glock to a 1911 I would forget to disengage the safety when getting on target.
For this reason I will not carry a 1911 as a defensive firearm. Frankly, its my opinion that if you are going to carry 1911 for defensive purposes you should only shoot 1911 type pistols. Also, you should only train where you disengage the safety every time you put the gun on target and reengage it when you come off target. I see too many people at the range shooting 1911’s and they basically disengage the safety at the beginning of the range session and reengage it at the end, with no practice putting the safety off when they are on to target and putting the safety on when they are off target.
Working the safety needs to be 100% instinctive and I’ve found that with switching between Glocks and 1911s, I’m about 99.5% correct. Not good enough. For what its worth, I have also caught myself swiping off the nonexistent safety on a Glock after I had been shooting 1911s for a while. But that is a pretty benign failure costing me somewhere in the area of the quarter second.
Same as my experience. In my case case I carry CZs and Kahrs. In competition I will shoot CZ both locked and cocked and double action as well as 1911s and Kahrs. But I will always carry my CZs in double action. I also have that same issue when I transition to using the safety.
I disagree with the mea culpa. You were right the first time. Actually, maybe you weren’t right at all. The safety should never be on in the first place if you’re carrying the firearm. If handguns can be made without safeties at all. then it doesn’t make sense that not engaging one can be wrong and any subsequent arguments of when to disengage them are moot and inconsistent.
Even if you’ve trained consistently to take safety off as you’re aiming, it’s still one more burden slowing you down from taking your shot if and when you need it.
My moment of realization on safeties came with a game of paintball in an abandoned warehouse when I was 16. I was hidden behind some pallets stacked 4 feet high as G-man approached me. It was a sure kill, I stood up out of concealment to dump on him and then freaked out because my gun was broke and wouldn’t shoot. The surprise freaked him out temporarily but he ended up dumping on me like it was the 4th of July. It wasn’t for like 20 seconds later that I realized I forgot the safety.
@ Roy, suggestion, get some real world training. Your paintball experience as a kid doesn’t count.
Yeah, because paintball at 16 was my only experience with firearms. Did you want to bother with saying something constructive. Like maybe “no no no, trained shooters don’t forget to take their safeties off when they draw and fire their guns” so that I can reply “trained shooters do occassionally forget to take the safety off” so I can still be right.
@ Roy, Like I said, “safeties aren’t for the weak minded or scared”. You big ol’ paintballer you! 🙂
You keep calling me a paintballer. I’m so triggered right now. And since I don’t use manual safeties on handguns. I could go off at any second. Because that’s how safeties work.
@ Roy, seeing as how you are a professional paintballing operator, I have no doubt of that.
One, two, three o’clock, four o’clock GLOCK
Five, six, seven o’clock, eight o’clock GLOCK
Nine, ten, eleven o’clock, twelve o’clock GLOCK
We’re gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
Put your safeties on and join me hon’
We’ll have some fun with the striker fired one
We’re gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
We’re gonna GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, ’till broad daylight
We’re gonna GLOCK, gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
When the clock strikes two, three and four
If your gun runs dry we’ll yell for more
We’re gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
We’re gonna GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, ’till broad daylight
We’re gonna GLOCK, gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
When the steel rings five, six, and seven
We’ll be right in Parabellum heaven
We’re gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
We’re gonna GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, ’till broad daylight
We’re gonna GLOCK, gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
When it’s eight, nine, ten, eleven too
I’ve had no malfunctions how ’bout you?
We’re gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
We’re gonna GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, ’till broad daylight
We’re gonna GLOCK, gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
When the clock strikes twelve we’ll cool off then
Reload some mags and shoot GLOCKS again
We’re gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
We’re gonna GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, ’till broad daylight
We’re gonna GLOCK, gonna GLOCK around the clock tonight
Strych9: Although I have carried a 1911 in my time, I will admit I am not much of a fan, or as experienced with one as most everyone that seems to have commented on this so far. Personally IF I were to carry a 1911, I would most likely leave the safety on in the holster. I can however admit, that you make a valid point. I carry a Glock 19 daily, with no safety on it, and given some more time with a 1911, I would probably be more comfortable with carrying a SAO with the safety off in the holster.
I am curious to one thing you mentioned though that kind of negated your own argument…
“Gotta carry with the safety on is like appendix carry… no balls or soon to have no balls.”
Is that implying that appendix carry means I am going to shoot my balls off? How would this happen if you honestly believe everything else you have posted? I only ask because I carry appendix daily, with a pistol with no safety and I have no fear of this happening. If you believe everything you’ve posted then why knock those who carry appendix? Is it the end all be all? No, there is no perfect solution. Have many people jumped to it because it the new “tacticool” thing to do? Yes. But for some it serves as a legitimate solution for daily needs.
Anyways, sorry to take this a little off topic but hopefully you can see how it ties in.
Browning’s original weapon had no external safety, but was installed because of an Army request, Gee this worked for many years until wanta bee gun guru’s having limited intelligence tell us all they don’t know how or when too use it! an Idea that disengaging a safety when needed is moot considering total reaction time, time the difference between a DA/SA and a 1911 with safety on for the first shot from the draw! I have seen more accidental miss fires on Glocks than with a 1911 with safety engage from the draw that safety less guns scare me Except for the SIG and a few others with a decocker!
I didn’t read your initial article, but I think you probably had it right. If your’e drawing a gun with the intent of maybe firing, it needs to be ready to fire. I would associate the safety coming off as the muzzle clears the holster and you build your grip then you’re in “high ready” with a gun ready to rock. You can still decide to shoot or not shoot at high ready. As you come from “high ready” to the target, as that’s when the finger enters the trigger guard to potentially address the trigger.
Pincus strikes me as the dude who engages the safety on a 1911 as he moves around between firing positions and gives it a dumb name and a long explanation for why he does it. If he called you out, I’d take it with a grain of salt.
That said, I’d rather a DASA than an SAO. Can still get a quality precision SA shot, but without the grip safety and the added bonus of a long DA first shot.
Plus learning to shoot a DA makes you a better shooter. If you can shoot a factory DA service pistol, you can hit with anything.
ok, so safety on until drawn for use then?
there are some here who carry unchambered.
I am not sure which side is academically correct, here, but I do know that in my city, if you unholster your gun, you must be in a situation where death is imminent, and shooting is the only possible defensive move. there would be no situation where you would pull a gun with the safety on while you figure out your next move. guns without safeties are fine, if they are like revolvers needing a heavy trigger. If they have a safety because they are single action, I can’t see how anyone can have a bullet in the chamber, with the hammer down, waiting to be cocked when drawn. But then, I am….lasttoknow.
I cannot believe that Pincus called you an idiot. Shocking. Truly shocking.
Disclaimer: None of you know me and I am a sarcastic twit. So is this post.
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