We wrote back in August of 2021 about the slowly accumulating lawsuits against SIG SAUER. A small, but growing number of people — mostly police officers — were claiming that the P320 pistol was prone to what their attorneys called “un-commanded discharges.”
ABC News had just aired a couple of reports on the lawsuits, interviewing one of the officers involved and her attorney, Jeffrey Bagnell. Bagnell made the case for the cameras that if all of these highly skilled and extensively trained individuals — cops — were having problems, something must be wrong with the guns. Because as everyone knows, no one is more skilled and practices safe gun handling quite like law enforcement officers.
But as we pointed out in that earlier article, there were obvious problems with many of the lawsuits that had been filed. The officer who ABC interviewed, Brittany Hilton, had been carrying her P320 in her purse when she says it discharged. Another cop was carrying his gun in a gym bag, wrapped in a towel. One gun store owner shot a finger off while checking to see if the gun was loaded. Another P320 owner blew a hole in his hand while, he said, he was putting his pistol down on his nightstand.
Far too many of the suits that were filed involved, let’s say, questionable circumstances and obvious cases of people handling P320s in clearly unsafe ways. Never mind the obvious incentive that exists on the part of cops to claim that their negligent discharge was the gun’s fault…to save their own jobs, let alone avoid the obvious embarrassment.
So color us unsurprised by the latest update in the SIG P320’s Fire All By Themselves! narrative. Our good friends at the Michael Bloomberg-funded anti-gun agitprop outlet The Trace teamed up with someone with a lot of time on his hands at the Washington Post to update the story.
Champe Barton is the credited Bloomberg minion and Tom Jackman is the WaPo’s writer. The story is published here by the WaPo and here by The Trace. They interviewed a range of plaintiffs against SIG SAUER along with some “experts” in another attempt to claim the P320 is “uniquely dangerous.”
To be clear, these claims and lawsuits have nothing to do with the drop-safety issue seen in early P320 models. We documented and covered that back in 2017 and SIG addressed the issue with a voluntary upgrade program as a fix.
But once again, just as before, a careful reading of the current story reveals more than a few problems with the claims and the people whose stories the authors used to support it. Taken as a whole, it sheds more doubt on the allegation of a problem with the P320 than it makes that case that there is one. In other words, the authors have done a lot of hard work that, on balance, ends up discrediting their narrative.
The Design
The first, most egregious aspect of the WaPo/Trace story was their misrepresentation of how the P320 is designed and the safety features that are built into the gun. I won’t go into that detail here as Jeremy, who has a background in engineering, did that really well in our earlier post here.
Suffice it to say that SIG SAUER told us they provided the writers with the above animated illustration of how the P320’s fire control unit works. They also gave the writers a raft of detailed information about the P320 and answered a number of their questions before the article was published.
Virtually all of that was ignored in the final article. And rather than using SIG’s animation, the authors created their own version which leaves out a key component of the P320’s safety system. Strange, no?
For support in making their case that the P320 design is somehow unusual and allegedly inherently unsafe, the authors rely on a report written by a gunsmith and paid witness for the plaintiffs, James Tertin. Tertin claims that “a foreign object or pressure against the holster can leave the gun unacceptably vulnerable to a discharge without an intentional trigger pull.”
This, however, is the same expert witness who testified in a deposition that “the P320 cannot fire without its trigger being fully depressed.” Yes, that directly contradicts his report’s conclusion that the P320 is “unreasonably dangerous and defectively designed.” It seems that testifying under oath tends to concentrate the mind.
Oh, and did we mention that James Tertin works for Magnum Research, part of Kahr Arms…a competitor of SIG SAUER? No? Well…he does.
The authors were apparently self-aware enough to realize that Tertin’s conflicted and contradictory opinions don’t really help them make their case against the P320. As a result, they claimed that they talked to “other experts” — but refused to name them — who “said the P320 could fire if jostled or slammed while the trigger is depressed enough to disengage the gun’s internal safeties.”
Yet if the P320 is so dangerously delicate and prone to “going off” if jostled, surely these experts who were consulted by the authors, or those paid witnesses who were employed by the plaintiffs’ attorneys, were able to demonstrate how that happens in real life. Right? Actually, no.
The fact is, no one has been able to induce a P320 to fire without the trigger being pulled. Ever. That includes whatever tests the military put the gun through as part of their modular handgun system evaluations.
As even the authors themselves were forced to concede . . .
Despite the many lawsuits against SIG Sauer and claims of errant discharges, legal teams and police departments have been unable to document the gun’s alleged defective discharges…
The authors tried to downplay that terribly inconvenient fact by asserting that it’s “notoriously difficult to replicate mechanical failures in guns,” but that just doesn’t fly. You can’t claim the design of the P320 is “dangerously delicate” and overly prone to un-commanded discharges on one hand, and then note that no one has ever been able to make it do what they’re saying it too frequently does.
You’d think that someone with an interest in making a P320 go bang without pulling the trigger — plaintiffs, attorneys, paid witnesses, competitors — would have been able to induce and document an un-commanded discharge by now, but that has never happened.
The Numbers
Another aspect of the story that works against the claim that the P320 just “goes off” on its own is the sheer numbers involved.
Since the P320 was introduced back in 2014, the company has turned out over 2.5 million of them. More than 500,000 are in the hands of the military and over 2 million have been bought by civilians and law enforcement agencies. Yet as the authors detailed, SIG’s been targeted with only about 70 lawsuits.
It doesn’t matter if you make flatware, line-trimmers, automobiles, or firearms, there will always be people who buy your legal, well-made products and do stupid and/or dangerous things with them. A not insignificant portion of those people will then deflect blame for what they’ve done and try to extract a pile of cash from the companies involved. That’s a maddening, but very real cost of doing business in a litigious society.
While SIG SAUER is now the largest gun maker in the world, it’s probably not the most well-known brand in the US. Companies like Smith & Wesson, Ruger and GLOCK, to name just a few, are probably better known to the general public and historically have far more firearms in the hands of civilians and law enforcement. GLOCK likely has more guns in the holsters of more LEOs than any other brand, though SIG and Smith are certainly well-represented there.
Given the numbers involved, those other companies are no doubt hit with as many or more lawsuits claiming their firearms are somehow defective, allegedly poorly designed, and just “go off,” too. As for law enforcement officer lawsuits, we don’t have access to the information — and GLOCK surely won’t disclose the data — but we’d wager a pretty penny that the Georgia-based gunmaker is hit with far more lawsuits from cops who’ve negligently discharged their guns than SIG is.
GLOCKs have long been the subject of similar unfounded criticism for being a striker-fired gun without a manual safety. Yet consumers and law enforcement agencies choose them again and again as their handgun of choice. Why? Because just like the P320, they make very good guns that work.
That won’t, however, stop them from being targeted by careless owners and opportunistic attorneys. If you want an example, just look to…the Washington Post.
Back in 1998, they ran a story on the extraordinary number of Washington, D.C. cops who had negligently discharged their duty guns. D.C. cops had touched off 120 NDs in the first ten years that the GLOCK 17 had been adopted as the department’s duty pistol. Some claimed the guns were obviously the problem.
Was there actually anything wrong with the GLOCKs? Not at all. Instead, the problem was a lack of training and discipline on the part of D.C.’s finest.
[T]he department stinted on training for recruits and failed to keep veteran officers to a twice-yearly retraining schedule that experts consider the bare minimum for firearms competence. A Washington Post investigation found that 75 percent of all D.C. officers involved in shootings during 1996 failed to comply with the retraining regulation. One officer waited so long to come to the range that firearms instructors found a spider nest growing inside his Glock.
Several factors contributed to this neglect, including the reluctance of hard-pressed commanders to spare officers from street duty, lapses on the part of officers themselves, problems with lead contamination that shut down the shooting range in the early 1990s and poor management, according to interviews with officials and independent studies of the department.
D.C. police officials repeatedly studied the phenomenon of accidental discharges, invariably concluding that there was no fundamental problem with the Glock itself – as long as users were properly trained.
Go figure. What do you suppose the chances are that exactly the same phenomenon is at work now with the P320?
The Claims
As we did with our article back in 2021, we read the WaPo/Trace article with the eye of someone who’s been trained in the use of firearms and knows more about them than your average corporate media reporter or Bloomberg-paid hack. Yes, that’s a low bar, but it was revealing nonetheless.
Take for example, the story Harvey Winingham. The writers describe him as a 74-year-old retired Air Force veteran. Clear implication: he was in the military, so he must know how to handle a gun, right? But they wrote this . . .
…as he inspected the weapon for a chambered round, it fired a bullet through his hand, Winningham said.
Have you ever press-checked your pistol with one hand over the muzzle? Would you ever do that? Of course not. It’s a clear sign of either a bogus story or obviously negligent gun-handling. But the WaPo and Trace writers don’t know enough about firearms or their safe use to realize that including a claim like that in their story badly undermines their narrative.
And then there’s the case of School Resource Officer Jonathan Cross. Cross carried a P320 as part of his duties as a middle school SRO. But he had a nasty habit of playing with his gun.
[Pasco County, Florida Sheriff Chris] Nocco said Cross has been employed with the Sheriff’s Office since 2005 and has been stationed at Weightman for two years. According to the sheriff, Cross admitted to having a habit of “fidgeting” with his gun, and a student also told investigators he had seen Cross “fool” with the gun in the past.
In 2019, Cross fooled with it once too often. Watch the security video below as he partially draws the gun and then re-holsters it for no apparent reason at all.
Fortunately, no one was hurt when Cross launched a 9mm round in the school lunch line. He was fired as a result. As for the conclusion of the subsequent investigation . . .
“Only one thing caused that gun to go off — it was him,” [Sheriff Nocco] later added.
For some inexplicable reason, the WaPo and Trace writers actually included the above video and Cross’s story as support for their contention that the P320 is prone to firing on its own.
Finally, one more aspect of the article is worth pointing out. The writers include the accounts of three people whose P320s allegedly fired on their own, and who now suffer from almost crippling embarrassment as a result. One is a Georgia assistant district attorney . . .
“The physical injuries were much less substantial than the toll this has taken mentally,” said Matthew Breedon, 43, an assistant district attorney in Springfield, Georgia, who says his P320 shot a bullet through his leg when he drew it from its holster at his office. News stations and tabloids ran stories about the shooting with headlines like, “Georgia assistant district attorney accidentally shoots himself inside courtroom.”
“Every time I meet somebody, I wonder: Did you see this? Do you believe this is what happened?”
And this from a 55-year-old man who put a round in his own thigh . . .
[George] Abrahams, the Army veteran from Philadelphia, didn’t tell his son he had been shot for almost two years.
Or Dwight Jackson from Georgia . . .
Jackson, whose P320 shot him in the foot in Locust Grove, Georgia, didn’t tell anyone about his injury — he explained his monthslong absence from work by telling colleagues he had fallen off a ladder.
Again, this simply doesn’t wash. If, in each of these cases, the P320 “just fired on its own” as these three people claim, why the embarrassment? Why are they reluctant to tell family and coworkers what happened? Would you be shy about telling people that you own a “defective” firearm that “just went off” and wounded you?
This, as they say in poker, is a tell. It’s the behavior of people who, it seems reasonable to assume, played a part in causing their own injuries and were simply too embarrassed about it to tell anyone what really happened. But the WaPo and Trace writers either couldn’t or wouldn’t recognize it for what it clearly seems to be.
– – – – – – – – –
In the end, there are simply too many obvious problems and inconsistencies in too many of the accounts that the Post and Trace writers used to make their case against the P320.
While it’s no doubt been extremely expensive, SIG has been fighting these lawsuits and winning in the courts. They sued Jeffrey Bagnell, the attorney who appeared on ABC back in 2021, for “publishing a false and defamatory video animation purporting to show that SIG’s P320 pistol…is susceptible to firing without a trigger pull….”
Bagnell had created his own animation of the P320’s fire control system that SIG claimed misrepresented how the gun actually works. Does that sound familiar? Bagnell has since been forced to remove the animation from his site. Will SIG go after the Washington Post and The Trace for doing essentially the same thing? Wouldn’t you?
Most of the suits that have been filed are still pending. The gears of the justice system grind slowly. SIG has won one unanimous jury verdict (the only case that has made it through a complete trial and jury verdict), and three others have been dismissed by judges.
As for the safety of the P320 pistol, I have one IWB on my right hip as I type this. Clearly, I’m not worried about it firing on its own. Apparently, neither are the dozen or so other people I know who own some version of the P320…people who know guns, how to use them, and how they work.
As one of the experts hired by ABC News for its report said back in 2021, “I do not have an explanation for why the updated version should have complaints from trained individuals. If it’s not legal momentum, it would have to be some other mechanism of failure.”
From reading most of the accounts of those claiming their P320 fired on its own back in 2021 and now in this recent article, legal momentum, embarrassment, and the need to deflect blame for negligent discharges seem the odds-on favorites for what’s really behind the vast majority of these lawsuits.
It probably shouldn’t be surprising that a couple of gun-ignorant “journalists” don’t know enough about their topic to realize that — or they’re simply too hoplophobic and refuse to acknowledge it.
Sig bashing is following a similar path of glock bashing with the added antigun drive to ban anything popular.
Yep, anybody who lived through the 80s has seen this show before. There were a lot of articles using “wonder 9” and then “plastic fantastic” as a mocking term. Heck, some people here still seem unable to comment about Glocks without using snide terms.
No complaints on my tactical tupperware blasting 10mm and 9×25
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Oh I comment regularly about Glocks, alright, and that I don’t use them. BUT the ONLY reason for that decision is that they simply do NOT fit my hand, nor to they point intuitively for ME. SO I carry on with my ancient BHP that DOES all those things. Oh I’m certain someone will have words to bash those, but I don’t car.Fifteen years of perfect satisfaction will be hard to terminate.
“BUT the ONLY reason for that decision is that they simply do NOT fit my hand, nor to they point intuitively for ME.”
With the newer Glocks, they include bits that changes the fill in the shooter’s hand.
The grips can be ‘tuned’ for the best fit for you…
Interesting juxtaposition of yesterday’s article on the BioFire hunk of junk.
Glocks could use a little bashing…got a hole in the wall to prove it…use a saf-t-bloc now!
Not the gun’s fault…
That’s not a Glock issue. That’s a Frank issue.
democRat Gun Control zealots want anyone who has anything to do with firearms to drop to their knees and with tears in their eyes ask for forgiveness like Japan’s drive by wire Toyota Executives.
Actually the democRat Party should do the above and admit to being fully liable for Monetary Reparations.
Wait, you mean to say that if I pull the trigger on my P320 it will just go off?
Shit, now I’m skeeeerd.
Somebody should tell all the instructors and students with P320’s cycling through the Sig Academy everyday.
I was pleasantly surprised with how nice that facility is, will need to rent something with a suppressor for first time trying.
Legal NY state NFA ‘toys’ are in the future for you.
The gears grind slowly…
Till then there are always destructive devices………….
I hope that one day the P320 .357SIG will return.
If you build it……..sigh no it’s going towards 45gap but a full size slide/barrel on a subcompact grip is a lot of fun and only slightly harder to conceal than a 365xl (mostly due to thickness). Not much purpose to it outside of mag cap limited states but was nice being able to buy normal uncapped magazines for once.
having the gun go off when you’re hand is nowhere near the trigger is a bit unnerving…right Remington?
frank, a lot of people make such statements that that gun went off on its own. 99.999999% of the time it is a lie. Alec Baldwin?
Most of the time true but Remington was an actual design defect in trigger to safety interface that caused actual accidental discharge as opposed to typical negligence. Still sucks that some weren’t following basic safety rules but does remind me I will need to check that trigger later.
Or “It went off while I was cleaning it” talking about a revolver. I have tried and tried to make my S&W revolver go off when I have the cylinder open because I wanted to see how accurate it was like that and have never been able to get it to do that.
I want to buy one just to spit in their biased face.
And I’m an S&W guy.
Personally, I like GLOCK and SIG. They make excellent firearms.
The parts compatibility across multiple models for both companies makes maintenance less of a logistical nightmare. Now if we could only agree on common caliber let alone magazine.
That is what makes humans, human. Different strokes for different folks. I own several GLOCKS and have never had a “stoppage” or a discharge that I did not initiate. Yet there are people who make claims…
Only ever had two issues with a Glock 17 one was failure to eject (steel case so not worried about that one) and a failure to cycle on a shoot while moving drill so some form of limp writing on my part is likely and seems to be similar to a lot of the police jams during dynamic shootouts. No idea if it is a training or mechanical fix but while rare it does seem (more data needed) to be a pattern.
SAFE, Probably, your failure to cycle was due to “limp wrist” in holding the GLOCK. That is the “usual” cause of a failure to cycle with a GLOCK. (I’m a certified GLOCK Armorer.)
Pretty much what I figured but never had a similar failure while shoot move shoot or shoot on the move with the M9 (way more time to see it) so perhaps just less forgiving of user error under stress?
SAFE, the difference is that GLOCK is a striker-fire firearm. The Beretta M9 isn’t.
When you don’t hold any pistol or revolver properly (tight firm grip) your marksmanship suffers.
Shooting on the move I accept marksmanship will suffer it was more the unexpected stovepipe that was reminiscing of limp wristing a 1911 that caught my attention with the Glock that seems to happen in more than a few police shootings when they have to shoot on the move. Well aware of striker vs hammer but doubt that would make a difference for such a malfunction. Weight of the pistol may be a factor but not sure how to test that.
SAFE according to ‘experts’ far more knowledgeable than I, it does matter if you “suffer” from “limp wrist”.
I fortunately, do not suffer from this syndrome and have never had a misfire or a “stove pipe”.
LOL Walt everyone does at some point and usually it is trained out or not noticed but I have noticed it is more prevalent on lighter guns and/or lighter recoil springs. For the 1911’s I only noticed it on the Springfield version from over a decade ago while my buddies kimber and its comically heavy recoil spring I could not make stovepipe. If you haven’t managed to jam a glock by now I would have to ask what are you not doing re training as while they are overall great they will have jams if you train with them on stuff beyond static shooting………..much like every firearm including revolvers with enough use.
SAFE, to tell you the truth, I have never suffered from ‘limp wrist”. Too many people hold a pistol as if it were going to bite them. I have never fired a Springfield. When I was in the Corps, we had the Colt .45 APC. I train with my GLOCK ever week. Never had these “problems” that some of the local talent allege to have had. And I use what is called “dynamic training” when I go to the range.
Think less the insult to manhood definition of limp wrist and more not holding the pistol tightly enough to fully absorb recoil……..may be a generation gap in definition. As to the never having the problems guess you are the one in 10,000+ that has never managed to have a failure. Good for you but for the rest of us its just stuff to learn from……….Wait didn’t DOCCS use revolvers most of the time you were in or was that more recent for the switchover?
“The fact is, no one has been able to induce a P320 to fire without the trigger being pulled. Ever.”
This is a bald faced lie and you know it. Your own website posted video of a P320 repeatedly firing when dropped, with nobody touching the trigger in any way.
Here’s just one of several articles TTAG published in the past:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/mechanics-behind-sig-p320-drop-safety-failures/
Here’s a picture you and Robert and Jon shared showing the P320 firing when dropped.
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/p320-drop-screen-grab.jpg
Yes, we did. That, however, is totally unrelated to the claims being made now about post-upgrade guns.
Read the articles involved. We’re not talking about drop-safety here, we’re talking about people who claim that their P320s “just go off,” sometimes in their holster, their purse, their gym bag, whatever.
I understand that. Do you acknowledge that your statement in the article is categorically false?
I am so G D tired of being gaslit by the left wing media, I can’t stand to see it happen from our side too. Sig P320’s DID fire when dropped, without the trigger being pulled, so to say “nobody has ever made it happen” is quite literally the exact opposite of “the TRUTH about guns.”
To potentially shortcut some unproductive hair splitting was the upgraded/current model version also able to be made to fire from dropping?
I own a 320 and wasn’t confused/gaslit by this story at all. The lawsuits are not about drop tests.
@TexTed
“I understand that. Do you acknowledge that your statement in the article is categorically false?”
Apparently you do not understand that, for if you did you would know you question is unsubstantiated.
In addition to .40’s post.
Actually, the trigger was pulled, by the impact itself due to the mass of the trigger and trigger bars when dropped on earlier variants.
Among other things, lightening of both sets of parts consisted partially the upgrade in the redesign.
Which is standard equipment on all X-series and later models, for all those who aren’t aware.
“Yes, we did. That, however, is totally unrelated to the claims being made now about post-upgrade guns.”
You’re not wrong here but the way the paragraph is written is incomplete enough to make it seem like you’re trying to deny the actual problems. In particular, after your statement that it’s “never” happened you mention “whatever tests the military put the gun through”… leaving out the fact that the gun also failed drop tests there, was changed to fix them, and those changes were quietly implemented in the gun pipeline and given to customers as a “voluntary upgrade” in lieu of recall.
So at best your statement needed to provide more of an explanation.
well I didn’t have any trouble understanding all this…. the “issue” was those handguns voluntarily discharging whilst in holsers, where they SHOULD be carried, even if in a gymn bag or purse.
Reminds me of the incudent where some Fed agent was in civvies, at some rowdy dance, apparently just a little bit tipsy (maybe only two sheets to the wind) had his duty unit in a pants pocet, got a bit excited and started turning somersaults or flips of some such inverted move.. his piece fell out on the floor and volunteered to emit a very loud celebratory noise…. other folks on the floor began diving for cover, screaming, racing for the doors, panicking etc. thinking the mafia had made a casual appearance for a shoot-em-up.
@Tionico I’m glad you weren’t confused. What we’re talking about here, though, is the writing quality and/or the whitewashing of a known issue.
Also, IIRC the fed actually ND’d when he tried to pick the gun up. So even in that case it didn’t just “go off”.
When you claim a P320 has never fired without the trigger being pulled, but have documented cases where that happened, you undercut your own credibility. Why make such an easily disproven claim?
The P320 has never fired without the trigger being pulled. Even when the drop issue was identified, it was not a result of the gun discharging without the trigger being pulled but rather the inertial mass of the trigger traveling to the rear and causing the discharge. Thus, the trigger was in fact depressed causing the gun to fire.
No one who knows this gun takes this publication seriously anymore. With its shilling for Sig. Tedious.
Ok Rob… enlighten us and explain where the author is incorrect.
Dan the operative word here is CLAIM. 99.9999999% of the time, it’s a bold faced lie.
This was addressed in 2017, you moron ! How long are people going to keep this up. Basically illiterate people when it comes to firearms. S&W, Taurus, Walther, FN, and others have all had recalls relating to accidental discharges. Jesus, and if anyone has a post-recall P320, they call Sig with the SN and Sig sends a return label, fixes the gun, and sends it back to you, at no cost.
Why does the NRA get most of the antigun press? Biggest target takes most of the fire (took military pistol and a large share of police contracts as well as being fairly popular with normal citizens)
Yes. Sig’s own testing showed the problem seven years ago. Dan apparently has trouble reading sig’s press releases. Or never bothered to read them or probe beyond sig’s high priced gaslighting that is ruining lives for money.
(and by “repeatedly firing”, I meant — you dropped it multiple times, and in several of those instances it fired a single round. Nobody should misinterpret what I’m saying to imply that it was somehow firing multiple rounds per drop, as it wasn’t.)
Sig P320-X compact is the shizzle. WAPO blows more than Little Oral Annie ever did in her heyday.
Yup, my primary EDC since it came out. As to the fear factor? AIWB most of the time.
Here’s the video with Jon and Dan and Jeremy dropping the P320 and getting it to fire 3 times out of 10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS7dYoTTdNQ&t=9s
My favorite part of the first video they did about it with just JWT and Dan (I thought it was Farago but w/e) was when they started with a snide “this isn’t gonna happen” attitude, mockingly wearing body armor and all, changing to nervous surprise on JWT’s face when the primer actually popped.
It sounds like you have issues with content in TTAG.
Perhaps another gun blog would suit you better?
https://www.google.com/search?q=firearm+blog&ei=oVJUZL_8KPWWwbkPzIOycA&ved=0ahUKEwj_0O3O-tz-AhV1SzABHcyBDA4Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=firearm+blog&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzINCAAQigUQsQMQgwEQQzIGCAAQFhAeMggIABAWEB4QDzIICAAQFhAeEA8yBggAEBYQHjIICAAQFhAeEA8yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoKCAAQRxDWBBCwA0oECEEYAFDjCFjjCGCDDWgBcAF4AIABZ4gBZ5IBAzAuMZgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#bsht=Cgdic2h3Y2hwEgQIBDAB
Your comment was a waste of time because I don’t think TFB needs to advertise here. I’m sure they’ll appreciate the thought if they ever hear about it though. 🙂
Eric in Oregon, Maybe it is time for your to take Geoff’s advice?
And in each situation, that was a result of the trigger mass causing it to continue to travel towards the rear when dropped resulting in a discharge. The gun did NOT go off without the trigger being depressed.
Sig simply removed mass from the trigger and trigger bar to prevent this from occurring in the future.
All I want to know is Brittany ‘s bra size.
I will stick with my Smith and Wesson Third Generation pistols.
I’d be curious what evidence they have. I mean back in the day everyone said this (probably some still do) about Glock Triggers too.
I wonder if this is because product liability claims aren’t covered by the PLCAA so it’s a way to harass gun makers. I will say that even though there were harassing lawsuits against the ring of fire companies, the ones they lost were typically because the gun fired when the safety was disengaged.
Glocks require concentration…and discipline…a federal agent displaying his break-dancing ability only to have his weapon fall out and hit the floor…and in his haste to pick it up he squeezed the trigger…one little panicked mental lapse….and BAM!…
frank, like every other firearm, GLOCKs require COMMON SENSE. Common sense is NOT common.
Love this article: more full story than opinion. Not quite a year ago, cleaning my P320, holding in my right hand. Dropped the magazine, reached OVER THE TOP OF THE SLIDE WITH LEFT HAND TO RACK IT OPEN. I usually don’t keep a round in chamber. SLIDE SHUT. Pulled the trigger, and BANG!!!! My arm was angled just above the shot line, holding the rear of the slide. No mag, no “next round”. SHOCKED!!! Very mild powder burn to the left lower forearm. But my computer printer to my left was dead. Pointed gun away and re-checked, no rounds in battery and magazine dropped already. EMBARASSED. Mirror behind printer not hit. Neighbor’s wall in front of me not hit. He confirmed he didn’t even hear the gun go off. At the range (ex-mil and ex-le instructors where I’d retrained after over 30 years not shooting, so re-took NRA training course) had a good nervous laugh and put me through basic safety short update. The gun DID NOT go off accidentally, and I should have better checked it for a round in battery. With that kind of good luck (the miss), felt I should consider a trip to Vegas. No other problems in any of my three P320s or three P365s. (New printer!)
put one of those super-large target grips on one of my AR-15’s….pulled back the cocking lever…released it and…BANG!….it happens sometimes…[removed same]
The more I hear about this, the more it reminds me of the exploding dual gas tank idiocy of the older Chevy trucks.
you mean the ones where someone finally caught on film the llttle white flame visible just at the point of impact in the test, the better tol light off the spilling fuel?
A whole lot like the rigged films of the old Corvair.. resulting in the bookn’unsafe at any speed” of the Corvairs. Can’t remember the name of the author/test rigger, but he was a well known politician, and thus believed when he should not have been trusted. Seems some f the test drivers came forward quietly afterward and detailed how they were coached to “lean harder in the turns’ to make it appear the cars were unsafe. Seems the one criterion was how far the drivers of the test cars in the track leaned ij the turns.
I knew it was a sham cause I had owned worked on driven a number of the Corvairs and found them to be well designed and to handle well. I KNEW something was ‘wrong” with the whole slam campaign. Learned a few years after of the scam.
Ralph Nader, “Unsafe At Any Speed.” He was proven wrong:
Many people are aware of Nader’s contention that Corvairs are unsafe, but few are aware that, after an exhaustive investigation, the government arrived at a different conclusion. Naturally, the Corvair Society of America (CORSA) welcomed the results of the government study as soon as it came out. — https://www.corvair.org/index.php/home/history-and-preservation/unsafe-at-any-speed
Nothing new about fake news.
Why anybody ever trusts them, or government, is beyond me.
Donna Mae Mims won some races for Don Yenko in that little Corvair…remember road racing a big Grand Prix in one of those…couldn’t get past us until we hit a long straight…that car corners great….
independent rear was a step up from swing axle. the first four years as opposed to the last five. me pops had two… i steered one sitting on his lap.
I’ve read through all my guns’ manuals and they ALL warn against dropping the gun. Don’t drop it! Yes, I know that it can be unavoidable in certain circumstances. My 320 came with the mod.
Shades of the 1980s BS Audi “unintended acceleration” nonsense.
Another case of media malfeasance. It was all driver error — pedal misapplication.
The same claim was made several years ago about Toyota hybrids — the “black box” onboard computer proved that those cases were also driver error.
commuters nightmare. cup coffee bran muffin behind a pinto ahead of audi 5000.
on firestone 721’s…
If I was Sig I’d make a gunm without a trigger and call it The Baldwin just to piss everybody off.
I’d buy one just to have it……
Everyone is jumping on the lawsuit bandwagon.
Next thing you know, we’ll hear Alec Baldwin claim that the gun he used to kill his cinematographer was really a Sig P320.
Then he’ll sue for “emotional distress” for being distraught from having killed the woman.
sig should sue them for slander
…worked for Dominion!….
They did, and won. It’s in the article
Israeli Carry is smart in certain situations..
Like when you are carrying a strike fire gun without a manual safety or a proper holster
Or you can just get a proper holster
Stories like this is why I stopped reading and commenting on TTAG. Boch has posted so much BS on here that I could no longer consider this a reputable website. When you have purposely written misinformation in an article and then have fanboys or haters make comments that are presented as facts then it is really just a waste of time.
I have seen a P320 fire without the trigger pulled and it was a “post-upgrade” model which should have been a RECALL. It didn’t take a drop or a blow from a hammer and was in a holster. A hard smack on the back of the slide with your palm would make it discharge. I have video of this and the owner still has the P320 as it is involved in an ongoing lawsuit.
The reason I am here now is I was searching the internet about another gun case and one of the results was this article. I figured I would chime in on TTAG one last time. The moral is that TTAG is actually helps the anti – gun community because there is serious gaslighting going on. Articles are written, later proven to be BS and there is never a correction or even a mention of it later.
I expect this from Boch but thought Zimmerman had a bit more credibility.
“As for the safety of the P320 pistol, I have one IWB on my right hip as I type this.”
“While SIG SAUER is now the largest gun maker in the world” – citation please, they are 5th or 6th.
Zimmerman, another SIG fanboy.
SIG should get out of the Tupperware gun business and stick with P226 and P229s, THOSE are great guns.
“Stories like this is why I stopped reading and commenting on TTAG.”
Did you stop reading and commenting before this story was published, or afterwards? Had to be afterwards since you read and commented on this thread. Or maybe this is the second time that you stopped.
i don’t suppose I’ll read your response, though. Unless you’ll be back for Round 3.
Typical. Clamoring claims of proof with no evidence to support. You fall short of presenting your own facts.
Was the gunm inspected for defects?
The holster and gunm themselves in an unbroken video sequence to prove 1) No tampering with the evidence, 2) nothing captured within? Fabric from clothing or other foreign objects?
Holster modified to fit, or made for the model in question?
How, or even do you know for certain it was a post VUP gunm?
Where indeed is the video you purport yourself to have?
As for that claim of “A hard smack on the back of the slide with your palm would make it discharge”. Yeah, you just shot your entire post in the foot. Proof or gtfo.
Re: “Fanboys” Requiring proper evidence of extraordinary claims is not being a fanboy. It is proper investigatory method.
Link to video?
I’ll take things that didn’t happen for $5000, Alex.
If you don’t think Glock, Smith, FN and HK’s engineers aren’t pouring over P320’s trying to figure out how to make it discharge without a trigger pull, your out of your mind.
Not only has no one been able to replicate such a discharge, no one has been able to offer a plausible explanation as to how it could mechanically happen in the first place.
I have a SIG P-320 M-17 and have had ZERO problems with the gun.
Where the pre-gen 2 drop safe issue is concerned; being such a specific angle, and with it long resolved, I don’t see a problem mostly.
Although I do think it should’ve borne mentioning in the article. If nothing else, to motivate anyone who has not undergone the VUP (Voluntary Upgrade Program) to do so.
I would think that since the gun in question is evidence in a lawsuit that nobodies going to post a video of the discharge during a lawsuit. The 70 or so lawsuits which mostly involve LEOs mean it isn’t what you call an extraordinary claim. The P320 is on my departments forbidden sidearm list and has been for years. There is a reason for that. My departments internal decisions are also for a reason which are not for public eyes.
I don’t have to make up “facts” to comment here. I did not write the article. I did not write about the lawsuits but I do take offense to the snarky “Because as everyone knows, no one is more skilled and practices safe gun handling quite like law enforcement officers.”
Most are, because we put our lives on the line daily and need a sidearm that is going to function 100% of the time and not shoot us. For those on here who hate cops that should make you happy. I couldn’t carry a P320 if I wanted to just like I cannot use certain ammunition. The internal memo from my departments armorer is also for not public view but the P320 just going boom is NOT at all related to the Voluntary Upgrade Program. The P320 VUP addressed another issue but not the part or lack of that part make the P320 possibly unsafe and capable of literally just firing.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/20-federal-agents-police-officers-and-private-citizens-sue-sig-sauer-for-unintended-discharges-of-its-p320-guns-301783659.html
The lawsuits from Law Enforcement have to happen for them to keep their jobs, a ND is grounds for dismissal.
Is this guy lying?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBjo62vSYZk
There’s no reason to ever believe an anecdote.
“The lawsuits from Law Enforcement have to happen for them to keep their jobs, a ND is grounds for dismissal.
“Is this guy lying?”
You’ve just revealed his possible motivation for doing so.
I am a certified 320 armorer, simply posting a video where no one can examine the gun, his holster or any other circumstance at the time, and posting a link to a lopsided PR newsletter with zero information about what actually happened with these people (is this how you policework also?) doesn’t prove squat – this gun simply cannot fire by itself. If it did, I wouldn’t own one.
“but not the part or lack of that part make the P320 possibly unsafe and capable of literally just firing.”
Again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZASNyzdEgx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PRjRthNqFE
Not possible without three very specific failures. Next time, cite proof, not garbage like this, sans any shred of proof. As for the video part of the investigation, the one above claiming he has it also states he isn’t part of the case. Therefore, not protected or under seal seeing that it’s already been released publicly, supposedly.
Whether that person is in your video is lying or not is irrelevant to proving your case, but he definitively fails to prove his own beyond reasonable doubt. That, and the motivator to keep his job is a powerful one, as you and others have made note of.
With respect to your department, are they involved in any of the suits? Powerful reason to push memorandums such as if so, trying to backstop their own case.
Or maybe that was you making the earlier claim. Kinda sus you didn’t reply directly to me while using my words, when also pushing the idea of you having insider knowledge, Once again, if you are who I think.
This is a funny article. Mainly because it’s so false. No Sig has not ‘won every p320 lawsuit’. It has settled several including the Virginia case during a jury trial and class action claiming it can fire out of battery. If you’re looking for facts about this gun look elsewhere because this guy is an apologist for Sig and is intentionally ignoring the truth about this gun.
“…Sig has not ‘won every p320 lawsuit’. It has settled several …”
Has SIG lost any of those lawsuits? Settling a case is not “losing.”
Reading comprehension is important. I didn’t say SIG had won every lawsuit. I said they won the only suit that made it to a jury and a number of them had been tossed by judges. They’ve also settled some (I don’t have that number).
Read it again.
wrong again. They settled the first case that made it to a jury. You need to do your research better. In the second one the jury hung after three days. This is public information. The judge ultimately found that the gun in that case went off fully seated in the holster as in so many other cases.
Settling a case is not “losing.”
Please cite the source of the “second one.”
Dan wrote an extensive article about this nearly two years ago — I found it in a search and read through it, as it contains some “interesting” situations in which a SIG pistol “went off by itself.”
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/about-those-sig-p320-lawsuits/ — 08/30/2021
funny i agree. he doesn’t know what he’s talking about re safe way to carry guns. for people like Zimmerman the only safe way to carry the p320 is like a dinosaur egg inside a safe surrounded by cotton balls. it must not be touched or impacted in any fashion. what a joke. not the real world and everyone knows it.
The P320 is a nice gun. I’m just hoping sig doesn’t decide to discontinue the classic p22X line in favor of the p32
This guy is clearly on Sig payroll and has no idea what he’s talking about regarding any of these lawsuits. Sig has been counter-sued by the attorney you keep smearing falsely for $25 million for defamation. A fact you don’t care to cover as you are such a cliche of a sig fanboy.
Don’t expect much IQ here w ttag. When Sig sues someone it is a triumph of justice!! When Sig gets sued 100 times, it means nothing!!
Agreed, you’re resetting the bar quite low. Imagine being so daft as to think a few accusations are proof of guilt.
He should sue TTAG too. I hope he does.
ray, Craig, Tom, Lois, and Mike.
Sounds like the title to a bad ’70s movie.
Also has every appearance of the dedicated character assassination campaign I mentioned in the previous thread, with all the rando posters with never seen heretofore pseudonyms popping up out of the woodwork.
Doesn’t it?
Tom, what is your problem with SIG? Have you ever fired one? Or are you going on the bad press and “law suits”?
The problem with civilian Sigs is the overuse of Indian made MIM parts. Every P320 that isn’t a military contract pistol should be stamped “internal parts made in India”.
You are really better off with a Hi Point or Taurus. Sig undercut Glocks military contract by 45%, their CEO had to cut corners somewhere, they weren’t losing another big contract again. Your “civilian” SIG P-320 M-17 is Indian MIM internally, SIG fully admits this.
SIGs reputation is already in the toilet and this discussion has been had on many real gun forums over the last two years, this article is clickbait.
Ron Cohen who is the CEO of SIG should be in prison but bought his way out of it. Profits before lives is not how to run a company.
Word is that in a few years the military is going to transition to Glock which is probably a good thing as there wont be as big of an issue with NDs. 200 cops aren’t lying and departments aren’t pulling contracts or outright changing pistols. The contract for 200,000 P320s is small by military standards.
There’s coincidence and then there’s just too many P320 NDs to be ignored. This isn’t the Gen 2 Glock issue which you as a Glock armorer knows was remedied. There are too many lawsuits against Sig to list because of the P320, there’s far more then the Glock hoopla.
Tom, SO FRICKIN WHAT? I have not had a single problem with my
SIG, nor do I know of anyone who has. Do you?
You allege that the CEO of SIG should be in prison? What for? Second Degree isn’t even a crime. 200 hundred cops? LOL, Show me the law suits from each of those 200?
Where did you get this “word” about the military switching over to GLOCK? I personally own a number of GLOCKS. I’ve had ZEFORE problems with them too. As a matter of fact when I brought my GOCK 17 and 26 to Georgia for the GLOCK “national” match a few years ago, they took my GLOCK worked a bur off the trigger on my 17 and made the action on my 26 as smooth as glass. So if the military decide to go with GLOCK I have no problem with that either. But all I’ve heard is badmouthing and no real proof. Kinda like the woman who claims her SIG P320 went off by itself in her handbag?
I have the M18 model. A nice inexpensive shooter since my 229 Elite is now 2x the value of what I paid for it so, it sits in the safe. The M18/320’s trigger is light, and very quick. I chose the M18 model because it does have a safety. I always carry ready to shoot, safety on.
The only time I ever touch the trigger is if I have ejected the magazine and cleared the chamber or, IF I’m pointing it downrange while shooting at the range. Other wise, I DO NOT have my fingers ever in the trigger chamber. I hope I never have to besides when training with it.
My complaints are the takedown on my M18/320 is very stiff, extended use will likely loosen that up. The mag release button is very sensitive to accidentally getting released. I’m asking SIG if an adjustment can be made. Otherwise, a very nice firearm for EDC.
You don’t do dry f!re practice when you can’t get to the range? 30 minutes daily will do wonders for your technique.
They all start out stiff, don’t worry about it, it will become easier with time. It’s also advantageous as a ledge in part serving as an impromptu gas pedal.
My preference is to aftermarket offset m4g releases, although none of mine (#’ing 3 32O’s) exhibit the same as yours. I find it important being able to achieve firm purchase on all the controls without having to rotate in hand to reach them slowing you down.
Highly recommend Keres, WC, and AC for those. AC’s take down lever replacement pedal fits nearly every holst3r w/o modification, the diminishing few others with a judicious application of heat. Whereas the other pedal offerings won’t fit at all without being molded for that particular setup, and is less comfortable to CC with the added protrusion poking into your body.
“Brittany Hilton, had been carrying her P320 in her purse when she says it discharged.”
A woman’s purse??? Even if it was a little clutch, Lord knows what lipstick/nail file/keychain could get on a gun’s trigger.
Just ridiculous.
As your comment is. Guns really bring out the stupid.
Which explains your presence here, amirite?
Clit is just angry.
Is this the company with the ceo who got a 2 year
jail sentence for illegal arms trafficking? $12 million fine. Super interesting story.
No, he didn’t.
The guy just paid the $12 million fine and avoided prison. This whole thing is to stir the pot and get hits and comments. WilliamWallaceTheThird seems to be a super SIG fanboi and hopefully never gets shot by a poorly designed and manufactured P320. “a few accusations” = hundreds.
Great QC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiZmvxc1P0w
Zimmerman wrote a piece that he knew would start a dispute in the comment section, then he claims he doesn’t have all of the info, typical TTAG nonsense.
The “Man with no name” is probably Boch and he lives in his own little world.
Whatever fool… I smash trolls no matter the subject and never shy from. Where I provide proof to support the truth, while well above 90% of the negative Nancy’s in this very thread spout nonsense without even an iota of. Go right ahead and try and disprove anything I’ve said. That of course would why you snuck in slinging frivolous petty insults instead of anything of substance that invalidates. Yes, I’m a fanboy, for truth and transparency.
3109 views, and an entire 42 whole people up voted, loads of public confidence in that one, no doubt. Solid evidence there too. Not. Initial inspection as said within, with all disassembled before the vid sequence begins.
You willing to die upon that hill staking your credibility that it for absolute certain wasn’t tampered with before the video cut in? Rhetorical question, dumbly, you already have.
Piss weak argument tossing more baseless accusations and supposition at anyone challenging the bs you people are posting in this thread. Man with No Name being Boch, you’re a joke.
Few, i.e. hundred(s? citation required), compared to the largess of 2.4 million. You’re not too bright, or great at mathematical concepts either it seems.
Oh no, we don’t live in the most scum ridden litigious society on the planet with those seeking big payouts galore. No ill motivation at all. Of course not.
You, like all who argue using logical fallacies and patently dishonest low brow tactics aren’t worthy of notice. Come correct, or don’t come at all.
“The “Man with no name” is probably Boch and he lives in his own little world.”
When you don’t have an intelligible counter-argument — you deflect, attack, and lie.
My world is called “Realville.” You should visit sometime. Invite your sock puppets — ray, Craig, Lois, and Mike. We have room.
And don’t tell John Boch that I’m impersonating him — I could get kicked off the forum for that.
If DUTY weapons are missing parts and Sig doesn’t have the time to send someone out to inspect or correct the issue then I think Tom made his point and yours crashed and burned. Even the cop above made mention of the P320 missing parts and one you girls even quoted it. “but not the part or lack of that part make the P320 possibly unsafe and capable of literally just firing.”
The above video proves this and a PD isn’t going to just publish internal memos about what most higher ups know is an unsafe gun or “slander” a corporation. Sig posting a wonderful cartoon or YouTube video is meaningless if an actual range officer dissembles a bunch of guns and finds they all missing parts which could lead to to AD of NDs and the maker could care. A PD with 1800 sworn officers is going to selectively edit a video? Put the pipe down William, you are high.
Then there’s this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HODW0F4eXmo
This is Milwaukee and their armorer and police chief were willing to put their names behind their claims. They aren’t hiding behind some made up names. What exactly made that cops gun go off?
His arms were full and he just getting out a car so explain it.
BTW: The MPD switched to the Glock 45 and told Sig to take a hike, the Sigs have been destroyed as the MPD will not open themselves liability by selling defective handguns.
Thats 1800 guns destroyed on the taxpayers dime, Sig knows they have lost the LEO market and don’t care because they have the military contract until 2027, a contract that they got by a complete low ball bid.
I know that my local PD dumped the P320 in favor of Glocks and M&Ps a few years ago after two ADs and I don’t live within 1500 miles of Milwaukee.
You girls keep defending the P320 and deflecting, most LEOs wont or are forbidden to carry it and most departments have specific internal memos that it is not to be carried. You think that all information should be public but that’s not how government on a national, state, city or local level works.
Have a good weekend girls
Do you have any proof of any of this? So far, I haven’t seen you offer any.
I’ve had 7 fired and imprisoned just like you for falsifying gov documents and perjuring themselves under oath. I’m up for a repeat anytime, baby doll.
For clarity in those not having followed along on this name shape shifters bravo sierra, LEO’s are the reference.
Alleged to be a cop, purportedly. Cowardly one who won’t reply directly to anyone, and changes names every post. Got one part right, Dog. Female type. Also known as a bitch.
You’re a little freak with delusions of grandeur.
Coming from a sock puppet, I’ll take that as a compliment, panty waist. As for delusion, there are many in here. Yours namely.
William, seems you have a fixation on police? Sounds like it’s time to get some help.
Does that include Cohen and his lawyers you numbskull?
Time will tell, nitwit.
Oooh. Purportedly’. You must be a lawyer. And a bad one.
Oooh, education, you must not have any.
Low IQ hire, eh?
I know of one Glock semi automatic pistol that has not fired when handled properly, even when it was dropped. This is over six+ years of carrying. It’s holstered >99% of the time.
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