Last week, I shared a post by a former Alabama police officer-turned-lawyer turned prosecutor on how to react if police show up at your home with a red flag order. Just the thought of police showing up to take your guns stirred a lot of emotions in comments. Understandably so. But between the author’s recommendations and some in comments, prudent people can prepare.
Who needs to think about red flag confiscation orders? If you live in one of those states with red flag laws (WA, OR, CA, IL, IN, NY, NJ, MD, FL, RI, VT, CT, DE, MA), and now Colorado, cops could show up unannounced at your home with a court order to take your guns.
It couldn’t happen to you?
Don’t be a fool.
How is your home life with your significant other? Do you have any current or former disgruntled business partners or employers/employees? Have any issues with parents, children or other relatives? How do you get along with the in-laws? The neighbors? Co-workers? Ex-girlfriends/boyfriends? Had any bad Tinder (or Grindr) dates?
If you’re like most folks, you’ve angered someone at some point in your life who might file a complaint to get even. Especially if they know you embrace America’s gun culture.
Here in Illinois, just two weeks ago, someone approached me at a Guns Save Life meeting about his friend who was served with a red flag order a few days before. Seems the spousal unit went to the courthouse in a fit of anger one morning. Hours later, cops showed up to collect the other half’s guns.
Fortunately for the friend, he’d sensed the crazy brewing and had already taken his guns over to his sister’s house.
In this case, the gun owner was lucky and moved his guns out preemptively. While he thwarted his soon-to-be ex-wife partially, he still now faces the task of hiring an attorney and missing work to attend a court date to argue for getting his gun rights restored.
What can you do to prepare for a “surprise” visit from police with a red flag order in hand?
If you sense a spike in drama on the home front — such as a divorce or child custody dispute — you can preemptively re-locate at least some of your firearms (and maybe ammo and magazines as well) at a trusted friend’s or relative’s place. I’ve done this for friends. And nearly a decade ago, when I was getting divorced, some friends it did for me.
Even without drama, don’t keep all your eggs in one basket. Do you have an extra defensive pistol, shotgun and/or carbine or three? Store them at a trusted friend or relative’s house. It’s a good hedge against fire or theft in addition to domestic disputes.
Be sure to keep this cache between you, the guy upstairs and your trusted friend or relative.
Along the same lines, PVC pipe and PVC glue at the local hardware store doesn’t cost much. And everyone has a shovel. Springtime is here. The coming weeks will make a fine time to plant some flowers outside your house.
Just be sure to check your local laws in terms of compliance with a court order and continued possession in violation of a court order.
While a number of readers posted some good comments, two in particular stood out to me.
John in Ohio shared this:
Years ago, it was not uncommon for us friends to loan to each other at least one long gun and perhaps a handgun; with ammunition, magazines, etc. They were in cases, go bags, or boxes which the person never touched or opened.
It wasn’t unheard of that the property was stored in a location that the owner of the firearms had access to without outside assistance. Barns, workshops, sheds, storage facilities, and other such places were utilized. Many of my friends knew where the keys to the barns, workshop, and vehicles were kept on our farm so they could access these places and use the vehicles in a time of great need or urgency.
Perhaps it’s past time for some to think about these contingency plans.
And Porkchop wrote this:
If they have a “red flag” order to seize the firearms, they already have the authority to search for them. Unless you want your entire dwelling turned upside down, you might as well let them know where the firearms are stored. Depending on the officers involved, I suppose that could happen anyway, but why give them an excuse?
Another thing to consider is that your actions and attitude during the seizure might be used as evidence during the hearing that will ultimately take place. If you go off on a rant about “that bitch” or otherwise lose your temper, you just give the petitioner more evidence to put before the judge to support the argument that you are too dangerous and unstable to have a firearm.
If I were to represent a client (yes, I’m a lawyer) in a proceeding following such a seizure, my ideal witness would be a cop who testified that he served the order on my client, that my client was calm, polite, and cooperative at all times, and that the only request that he made was that he be allowed to call his lawyer.
I would also like to hear him say that the client seemed surprised, but made no effort to find out the source of the information that led to the order. That’s my job. Asking, “Who did this to me?” or “Did Mary put you up to this?” just feeds the narrative that you have a beef with Mary, and maybe, just maybe, Mary might be right to fear you.
In addition, you have just given the officer an excuse to ask, “So what’s the problem with Mary?” He can write your answer in his report, and it is admissible in evidence; but if you say something different in court, that original answer may come back to bite you.
In short, when you are in a deep hole, stop digging. Just shut up, do what the officer says, and let us sort it out in court. You may lose, but at least you will not have made it easier for the other side to prove its case.
Some things you won’t be able to do
If you are served with a red flag order, you will not be able to purchase firearms. Not only would lying on a 4473 expose you to federal and probably state charges, but the NICS check would probably block the sale even if you did lie misrepresent your status.
Another thing not to do: refuse to allow cops entry into your home if they show up on the doorstep with that court order. They have the right to enter and the will do it. If you resist, they will use force. Up to and including deadly force.
You won’t get your guns back if you’re dead.
Even if you’re sure you’re in the right and the order is frivolous or maliciously-inspired, you won’t win that debate with the police officers standing on your doorstep. They are coming in and they will be taking your firearms. You won’t be helping your chances of getting your guns back at a later date giving law enforcement a hard time.
Best advice: bite your tongue. As Porkchop wrote above, the best course of action may be to help the officers collect the guns in an effort to expedite their mission and get them out of your home as soon as possible. If you don’t assist them, they may end up crawling around in your attic, poking around in your basement – or worse.
What next?
At that point, you will need to retain a lawyer to represent you at the formal hearing that will take place in about 10 days or so.
Perhaps the best way to protect yourself from these gun seizure comes by buying a little peace of mind. While you will lose the battle on the day the cops show up with a Red Flag, knowing you won’t have to spend a bunch of money on an attorney to win the war will help you stay calm as cops carry away your shotguns, rifles and handguns.
Some gun owners insurance programs such as US Law Shield will represent its clients in red flag hearings. I signed up for the US Law Shield for just that reason. It’s about $130 for a year’s basic coverage.
I consider it money well spent, especially given how I tend to anger people with some regularity in my jobs.
The fact that the we’re even considering an option other than ‘reloading your now empty magazine’ is why we’ve failed as a people.
Aye. That thought really hit me when a somewhat mainstream article, this one, is talking about burying PVC tubes. When it’s time to bury them, it’s well past time to use them. Many of us have already been here before. Let’s not let there be another time. I’m pretty much fed up with this tyrannical bullshit.
Fed Up ?
But wait , Trump and Senators Lindsay Graham & Rubio are on ” our side ” , just like N.R.A.
……… or something.
” Pastor and commentator Chuck Baldwin gives us a foretelling on the edict being pushed by the like of “Republicans” Graham and Marco Rubio.“If S.7 becomes law, NO gun owner (and that means YOU) will be protected from the seizure of their firearms. It will not matter that they have not committed a crime; it will not matter that they have not been charged with a crime; and it will not matter that they have never even threatened to commit a crime. And they won’t even realize that it’s happening until the SWAT team bangs on their door at 5am to seize their guns.”
” As with “bump stocks,” they’ve gotten a green light from NRA. The Association’s paid management has flat out advocated for disarming people not found guilty, let alone charged with crimes, telling members what they support passes “due process” muster. It also leaves a person deemed too dangerous to be trusted with a gun with unencumbered access to whatever — and whomever — they want. ”
( from Firearm News op. ed. )
When Sen. Graham made his ” brave ” remarks during the Kavenaugh debacle, many were fooled that he was now ” our guy ” , many were not fooled and here is proof he works for the deepest of the swamp.
There is some misunderstanding, perhaps misstatements regarding the NRA position on “Red Flag Laws”. They are against them as written as they deny the victim due process. And I didn’t get that information from the north end of a south bound horse either. I came right out and wrote the NRA ILA. Try it sometime before you slander them.
Well said, Mark. There is a huge difference between somebody siccing the cops on you based on little more than an opinion and being afforded due-process which not only give you the right to defend yourself but also gives you the right to confront your accuser. The NRA is not and has never been in favor of a vindictive or just plain wrong relative or associate being able to have a free citizen’s gun confiscated by simply making a phone call. A person who is, for instance, clinically depressed might very well be vulnerable to a Red-Flag charge where with a due-process hearing he/she could produce psychiatric evidence that just being depressed doen’t make you dangerous or incapable of owning a firearm. That said, I’m not in favor any form of gun confiscation. The common demand to “keep guns out of the hand of the wrong people” always raises the question of just who will make that kind of determination. In the eyes of gun-controllers the wrong kind of people are us—and I mean all of us. Red-Flag laws are nothing more than a shuck-and-jive scam aimed at abridging our 2nd Amendment rights.
The NRA says they support due process but also push for red flag laws. The NRA is not and has not been a friend of the exercise of the unalienable individual right to keep and bear arms. I’ve posted many links about this fact about the NRA on TTAG in the past. There are some things that they are very proud of but these things are completely contrary to Second Amendment protections. The NRA only supports government PRIVILEGES to arms and not the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sNiklO506A
DON’T FORGET it was the NRA that got us the NFA ACT of 1934 too!
As far as “Lezly Graham”….he ain’t fooled me! Still believe John McVietnamese had something on him.
“When it’s time to bury them, it’s well past time to use them.”
*sigh*
You bury some of them, as an insurance policy…
Anonymous tough guys on the interwebz are to be ignored. None of them will lead a rebellion or fight in one should the time come. If so, they would already have been in the news.
@jwm so people signaling their intentions to fight when the time comes are anonymous tough guys? I’ve never understood this mentality. We talk about the government enforcing it’s will upon us and when people say, “fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me,” they’re full of shit and won’t fight? Who will fight then? This mentality is just as egregious as the notion that we have to behave a certain way in the face of unlawful confiscations or that our “bad” behavior will validate why they’re there in the first place. I know you don’t want people to roll over, but attacking them for being pissed at legitimate concerns is unjustifiable.
White Devil. Read their statements. They are declaring not one inch more. They are denigrating their fellow citizens. But what have they actually done? Have they planted a standard and called for patriots to rally to them? Have they taken the fight to the evil .gov?
Nope. They just want to sound off about how they’re real men and the rest are sheep. Without, you know, actually doing anything but bleating.
JWM Believe me, I’m quite aware of the numerous goof balls who think self-defense and resistance to tyranny are reducible to a cute sound bite. They think that after having said such phrases, they have done their part in fighting against the encroachment of another group of human beings, I.e. government. Also, that’s all that government is, another group of human beings who claim some “authority” over another group. Too often, that fact is forgotten and government is elevated to god-hood status in the minds of some. Back to the relevant discussion, what of the individuals who are rightfully angered and speak of what they will truly do when the time comes? Are they to be disparaged simply because they aren’t rallying the troops? I understand that we should all group together and fight this thing head on, instead of in isolated incidents. But, again, is that the only thing that grants legitimacy to their comments? The effort to engage as part of a larger group?
I would point out here that JWM has a valid point.
The enforcement of red-flag laws in Fernadale, MD did not result in these interwebz hardasses traveling to Maryland and attacking the police in that town with lethal force.
99% of the people who say “Come at me brah” are pansies who wouldn’t bust a grape in a food fight but want to posture like they’re hard-as-nails. They’re all talk. The people who actually would shoot back are generally not the type to say so. Don’t believe me? Go watch some confrontations in your local bar on Friday nights.
The fact that there has been no massacre of police in MD, who quite obviously killed a guy for no real reason while enforcing an unjust law, strongly suggests that the people who talk about “fighting back” are all just talk. If they got “red-flagged” and knew the cops were there before the cops made entry these wannabes would shit their panties and surrender before the cops even knocked on the door.
@strych I completely agree with both you and JWM on the point that the men who would fight back aren’t the ones who usually give you any clues that they will. The tough man has no need to prove that he is tough. It’s a shame that the vast majority of those who advertise their intent to fight back will never do so and will never do what is necessary and appropriate when the time comes. I suppose those are the ones that JWM would unflinchingly tell to shut the duck up because they aren’t going to do anything. What do you think of the militias out west? Do you think they have the right idea? Or are they deserving of our scorn like the internet badasses?
I have no hard evidence to back this up, but I suspect there is a reverse correlation between how much one bloviates on the internet about being a tough guy and how tough one actually is.
There certainly are people who would rather die than surrender their guns. But these people are not the ones most likely to brag about it on an internet forum. They also might take some precautions as above like carefully choosing who they interact with. And they are probably very, very rare. When it comes down to it, most people don’t want to die or kill.
@Hannibal Agreed. That’d certainly be an interesting psychological study, if conducted.
“What do you think of the militias out west? Do you think they have the right idea? Or are they deserving of our scorn like the internet badasses?”
So, I grew up in the U.P. of Michigan and moved out West near the end of high school, moved back to Ohio for a while and then back out West again. That’s where I’m coming from on this.
I think it depends heavily on which group you’re talking about. The Michigan Militia has some pretty serious folks in it. They’re not just people who run around in the woods with rifles LARPing on the weekends. They get together and do things like hand out truck-loads of bottled water to the residents of Flint.
Out in the West, specifically New Mexico and Colorado which are the two states with which I have direct experience, I would say it varies a lot more. In my personal experience “Oath Keepers” or similar are a joke. The folks who are serious tend to stay off the radar a lot more than such a group. They exist and they’re serious as a heart attack but unless you know one of them you probably have no idea if you even know one of them.
Really, in both states, it’s the quiet individuals that would pose more of a problem in terms of confiscation. The kind of person who’s quiet, kind, usually pretty generous but will blow your face off without a second thought if you fuck with them.
“When it’s time to bury them, it’s well past time to use them.”
*sigh*
You bury some of them, as an insurance policy…”
I understand your point and I usually detest the little meme that I included but it was to make a point. When we are seriously talking about burying them, we are in serious trouble. We aren’t really free and it gets much more difficult to fight and win from here on out.
I read a lot of bullshit right here from some of you without knowing a damned thing about me. Also, for those who cannot read, I was making a point. NOWHERE did I call for anything. I merely stated my opinion after being through enough of this. I’ve been a gun rights activist for over 30 years. I’ve put my neck out there a lot. I did much work and risked my life and property over and over. Y’all are jackasses.
Big mouths on the internet can stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.
“The Michigan Militia has some pretty serious folks in it.”
Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s they did. I couldn’t tell you about today as I’m not involved anymore. We had big meetings and training with Michigan Militia, MOM (Millitia of Montana), and many others. We had speakers like Bill Cooper and Mark from Michigan. It was the time of Bo Gritz, Randy Weaver, and the Sovereign Citizens stand-offs. I guess Timothy McVeigh was running around the fringes of the groups at the time. We had a fair share of people LARPing and also agent provocateurs. They were filtered out as best we could. In fact, if someone hadn’t been seriously accused of being an agent provocateur, they probably weren’t doing much. I know I had been seriously accused a couple of times. Since that time, I focused on hitting the streets and straightening out government policy (often at great personal risk) and assisting with legislative lobbying.
IMHO, we’ve lost so much ground in several areas of individual liberty from those days. That’s part of what’s behind my original comment.
“I completely agree with both you and JWM on the point that the men who would fight back aren’t the ones who usually give you any clues that they will.”
I try to make a point for those who haven’t considered the point of a post enough. I agree that those who identify themselves and talk big and bad on the web are usually posers. I certainly only talk at any length or detail in daily life with those I really trust. What I post on the internet, for the most part, is to get some to think; but I still don’t post bullshit. Of course, I don’t post anything detailed either. The internet reaches the most people for a day-to-day schmuck. If nobody raises these points, there are people who never really take a serious look at them.
@strych What are the typical members backgrounds? Ex-military, law enforcement? Also, I’ve only had minimal exposure to the Oath Keepers and those of that sort. I couldn’t form an accurate and substantiated opinion on them, given the media’s reporting bias against such groups. One group could very well have their shit together, but most people would have a skewed and entirely incorrect perspective of them because they have been fed lies from the usual suspects. It’s good to hear that there are militias who are willing and perfectly capable to counter the noxious and never-ending march of the government against the people it’s supposed to represent, as the founders intended. Also, this is just for the sake of curiosity. What are the processes that one must undergo to join such a group? I know you said that most of these groups are underground and highly selective regarding their taking on new people. I’d figure something like that would have an extremely stringent and thorough vetting process to accept new people.
@John I agree with you on the point that some of the individuals who often broadcast their intent to fight back are not full of shit. If no one says anything, then there is nothing to critique and there are no arguments to improve.
@WhiteDevil:
“What are the typical members backgrounds?”
Most of the people I ever met when I was younger, people who were in the MM, were former mil or LEO but it varies. MM had a decent vetting program so that they didn’t get a bunch of wannabe hardasses who just wanted to boss people around on the weekend but rather got a lot of decent people who had their respective shit together and from whom you could learn quite a bit if you cared to listen.
Oath Keepers is supposed to be mostly retired mil but it has an “open door” policy for anyone willing to “take the oath” and as such it attracts a certain group of… what I will charitably call “ignorant folks”. Some veteran friends of mine convinced me to join and go to a meeting after which I promptly left and never returned. It was full of people who thought real life was a combination of Rambo, Black Hawk Down and other movies. Some of these guys would not hesitate to tell you “how it is” in relation to whatever they were talking about even if they had no idea WTAF they were talking about. Everything from comms to “opsec” to how to wear a plate carrier or what you should put on your rifle. Mostly it was movie type shit that they thought looked cool so it had to be high speed and low drag.
Now, there were some people there who really did have their shit screwed on tight. However, IMHO they were outweighed by the idiocy. I don’t care if half the people are good if the other half are complete jackasses who just want to shoot someone or tell other people what to do.
I’ll take half a dozen overweight guys who are “working on it” over a dozen jacked steroid freaks who all want to act like they did 27 tours in the ‘Nam any day.
So yeah, it varies. A lot. It’s the groups you’ve only heard of by word of mouth that, in my experience, tend to be better because they don’t advertise and therefore attract a bunch of idiots who watched too many movies.
“@John I agree with you on the point that some of the individuals who often broadcast their intent to fight back are not full of shit. If no one says anything, then there is nothing to critique and there are no arguments to improve.”
Thank you. You get it. I don’t actually post my intentions online. I don’t talk about them in groups. I know better. Besides, as I posted further down thread, at this stage in my life and health, I really couldn’t say with certainty what I will do if the “red flag” situation arises. When I was younger, I know what I would’ve done. There were tense times with government agencies at the farm and elsewhere. I resisted. These days, I guess it depends on if I am home alone and how fed up I am in the moment.
I am nobody and have done nothing special. I’ve merely done the best I could to stay true to my values while regularly reassessing the same.
Bottom line for all, I don’t really advocate anything except think long and hard about the nature of tyranny and the nature of liberty. Consider what it means to be free and what is at stake. Identify risks and what you are willing to jeopardize. Ultimately, I hope that each resists in some way that makes sense to them at the time and in accordance with what they value most.
AGREED….When it’s time to bury them
You just as well give them up…
You Lose..The Communists Win
for the PVC pipe, I’d use a glue on cap for one end, and a threaded connector with threaded cap for the other end. Size can be 6″ thinwall PVC, can be used for long guns and most hand guns, and for ammo I use lengths of 2′ sections. Otherwise they would too heavy to lift. The location marker is a piece of brick, exposed 2″ above grade. I have several junk guns I keep in the gun safe for show, and my carry piece I keep hidden.
Ok, honest question; after the police have collected everything in the safe and ask is that all of them? Your furtive glance knows you’ve got a bakers dozen buried at your cousin’s place in pvc, will that ultimately come back to haunt you? Or you just don’t answer and if they don’t believe you, start turning your house upside down because the veterans on the force perceive you are a lousy liar. Are you not screwed regardless?
The safest response is to say you can’t recall. It might be all of them, but since you buy and trade firearms all the time, you can’t recall if that is all of them or not.
They can’t nail you for a lie with that response…
Some will probably tear up your place no matter what. Eventually it will just be standard practice for red flag order to completely rip apart your house for any kind of weapon, firearms, knives, blunt weapons, maybe even impound your car and lawn mower, etc. The anti’s will just push for more and more.
“They can’t nail you for a lie with that response…”
Unless they find an up-to-date a list somewhere…
Gregg, of course you are screwed at that point. Therefore you should only tell them the truth, which is “fuck you!”
the only thing you are forgetting is two words. METAL DETECTOR.the burying of guns will do no good.
Plus ground radar. The antis have already thought of most of the feasible countermeasures.
The safest response is to shut your piehole and not say a single word to the officer, not even “hello” unless it’s through your lawyer first.
Also you should salt your entire yard by buying a huge bucket of bolts and burying them so every 6″ sets off a metal detector. Even if you don’t have anything else buried back there you will get a laugh out of them spending hours digging.
“the only thing you are forgetting is two words. METAL DETECTOR.the burying of guns will do no good.”
There are ways arround metal detectors.
All you have to do is think.
Amen brother…
Here’s the problem as I see it. The numbers of people claiming they will fight back and the numbers of people that will actually fight are very different. The problem of not being solidified is that no matter how in the right they are, they will be portrayed as every other psycho out there wanting to go on a killing spree. None of us want to be associated with that. The only viable option I see is that you group up with like-minded individuals and each group needs to communicate with every other group. Like a militia only without the douchfags trying to be all tactical with absolutely no idea how to be tactical. There needs to be a mentality of “one of us is all of us”. I hear all this talk of revolution and out of my cold dead hands. That is exactly what will happen… and nobody will give a damn without organization. The time of rebellion has already started. It started years ago. Nobody cared then and nobody cares now. I paraphrase but the sentiment is still relevant. We stand together or else we will hang separately.
You’re right about organizing, the problem I see is we need a leader to organize us. Yeah there’s a lot out there mouthing off but if there was someone to follow, I believe over half would sign on. As for what’s buried, it’s not in my name, only what I have in my home is, only my deer rifle and shotgun are worth anything, a cheap pistol that eats what I feed it and .22lr rifle. One thing is to start with a tribe you trust, which where I live they’re all family and we know vehicles that belong ones that don’t on the dirt roads. Really the NRA aren’t going to lead us against tyranny! Don’t expect them to, but we need someone with strong military background and the people to set up the organization. If that was to happen, I truly believe things would change and fast! I don’t believe the socialist are believing strong enough to die for it, hell most don’t know which bathroom to use, sad. I’m disabled but I know I will do anything to help, I’m ex machinist and technician with lots of know how and 25acres put tents up if need be, just find me a leader to follow
“Organizing” under a “leader” results in someone having a list of who needs to be killed first, and how to find them. I want every Fudd and every gun grabber, and their families, to face the same threat of 3 a.m. forced entry by armed SWAT team members that I do. We don’t need organizing, we simply need to not comply. When my door comes crashing down, I am coming out shooting. Warn me first and the guns will be bigger. If my neighbor is the target, they want to watch their backs. Cops *WILL NOT* do that more than once or twice a year before finding a real job.
And let me add, THEY can’t take them if THEY are dead.
DO NOT COMPLY.
It’s time for active militia’s in all 50 states.
just another way for this out of control government and lawyers to make a living off our rights. oh
i forgot, we do not have any rights in this country. the only thing that stops them now is the fear we will rise again. the problem with this new generation is they do not give a shit.
“the problem with this new generation is they do not give a shit.”
Each generation has a choice to stand and fight. When it doesn’t, it is much harder for the next generation. Time favors tyranny.
Just a thought. What you post on social media be used as well.
“They have the right to enter and the will do it. If you resist, they will use force. Up to and including deadly force.”
“Red flag laws” are constitutionally invalid, so anyone trying to enforce such laws doesn’t have any “right” whatsoever to enter your home. A citizen, however, is well within his rights to use whatever force he needs to in order to repel such an assault, up to and including deadly force.
Do you really believe that the system will consider your empty magazines and give up on the idea? We can organize politically or die in some “say hello to my little friend fantasy”.
“you can’t get your guns back if you are dead”
and we can’t maintain our LIMITED freedoms unless you fight.
Chose a fucken side.
Your first comment on this article sums up where we are as a people precisely…
I mean seriously…..? WTF is wrong with us? Knowing how many generations died defending our rights, then to just give in because some barely literate ex-jarhead shows up with a FKN PIECE OF PAPER??????? ARE YOU FKN KIDDING ME????? PLEASE TELL ME YOU’RE JOKING……
I’m replying here because I have read most of the comments here and I have seen not one, NOT ONE, effective suggestion as to what to do about this “Red Flag Law” crap. Everyone here is either promising a Rambo response when the cops come for their guns or they worried about what their response SHOULD be because they lose no matter which way they go. In other words, everyone here is REACTING instead of PROACTING.
I have a few better suggestions: 1) Get off your butt and write polite letters to your representatives and senators (State and federal) and challenge them for perjuring their oaths of office by advocating laws that destroy the U.S. Constitution and perhaps your State Constitution. 2) Get busy and READ the Constitutions and find out what your ENUMERATED rights are, and complain to the legislators supporting Red Flag Laws that they are violating those rights and be specific about the wording of those rights. 3) SUPPORT the pro-gun groups filing very expensive lawsuits all over the country to strike down this crap — do you realize certiorari from SCOTUS costs north of $100K to obtain? 4) When you hear of someone being victimized by a police agency under these Red Flag Laws, ESPECIALLY if someone lost their life because of it, write a letter to the agency and to the newspapers pointing out the perjury of the officers’ oath of commission, and how shameful it is that they, whose job it is to be the first line of defense against tyranny (THAT’S WHY THEY HAVE TO SWEAR OR AFFIRM AN OATH!), are now the catspaws of tyranny — and NO! It is NOT “above their paygrade! It IS their paygrade, it IS their JOB to protect us from government tyranny. Shame the hell out of them. Make them question the wisdom of obeying false, fraudulent, COLOR OF LAW the legislatures have no lawful authority to pass and law enforcement has no lawful authority to enforce, and should be sued for it. The cops should be sued for it and the State should be sued for it, and if a way can be found to penetrate law enforcement immunity from lawsuit, use it!
We are here and now because we gun owners have been suckered into the scam of being compelled to ask gov’t permission at the point of sale to buy a gun when government has no authority to demand we ask permission. We’ve been suckered into giving up our 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th Amendment enumerated rights in exchange for that permission thinking it makes us “the good guys,” when it makes us fools. No background check has ever prevented a crime or criminal access to a firearm and was never intended to — they were intended to sucker us RIGHT INTO the situation we find ourselves in now.
All I am saying is get busy and take part in protecting our Constitution; sitting around bitching and moaning on forums like this is accomplishing nothing but giving the soon to be identified ‘Secret Police’ the information they need.
Dog of War, you are correct! We the Sane, Patriot People have done a poor job of
minding our government for many, many years!
Sooner or later if we aren’t willing to stand up and fight, America, as we knew it, will
be lost.
“And how we burned in the camps later…”
Wives are not “spousal units” . If your wife is afraid of you, you are a bully, a violent criminal or just a pig. Give her your guns. let’s see how brave you are.
Did you consider that the “spousal unit” may mean husband? Or did your feminism blind you to any other option than “men are pigs, they bully innocent women with their guns”?
And why should I give my guns to my wife? She’s got her own. (Not that most men would need guns to intimidate their usually much smaller and weaker spouses, if they wanted to do so.)
Or the spouse is evil or delusional or both and you need to protect yourself from them.
Been there, Done that. Traded in the wife for a couple of dogs. Likely the best swap of my entire life.
You’re going to have a stack of cops at your door, in armor, possibly with automatic weapons. They are coming to get firearms from someone who has been ‘flagged’ as dangerous. They’re going to have overwhelming force.
So unless you (and friends) have an ambush set up, you’re gonna lose.
And, even if you win, the next time even more cops will come, and they won’t be trying to arrest you.
Be calm and wait. Our turn will come.
If this ever happened to me, who can I sue for taking my property without due process.
This is now…what is it going to look like in 10 years?.or 20 years?
Well beat the rush and get into 3D printing and home machining before you have to get a permit to get an internet connection, let alone to get a gun.
In 20 years we will have mastered 4D technology.
Right after we will have mastered the cold fusion. For last 60 years we have always been just 20 years away from this technology.
SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THE “COLD DEAD HANDS “MOTTO”??????
Everyone wants someone else to be the martyr.
Do you honestly expect nationwide coverage of people willing to resist? Of people who die fighting?
How about this motto: Come and take them.
It’s simple enough to understand why it was developed. You can chose which ever motto you want, as long as you defend yourself against tyranny, you are doing what should be done. Roll over and show your belly, continue to belittle those who are willing to give EVERYTHING up for your rights and their families family and so on into the future, then you might as well just walk your guns to the nearest pawn shop and surrender yourself now.
Is this America?
We need to make some changes. These laws are Unconstitutional and a violation of at leaste my 5th and probably my 4th Amendment rights.
Seizing my property for no reason other than someone’s word?
What IF they started doing this with your automobile or house? Just because someone is angry with you?
I’m starting to think it’s time to say good bye to TTAG and cancel my email SUB. Very sad, all that chest pumping, bluster, “MOLON LABE!” Now look at it, this outlet sounds like an Australian sportsman organization waiting for the last BB gun to be confiscated by the local “Royal” FUZZ. Unbelievable!
Agreed.
Are you annoyed by the chest thumping (I get ya there) or by the lack of action? If the latter, what (literal) hill are you planning to die on? Where’s the action?
You gonna join them in the confiscation to find out?
Agreed. Bunch of red coats.
Well said..whats sad is we all know how this will end….(Spoiler alert) Bad
Don’t forget the 2nd amendment! It is not about guns! It strictly restricts the ability of government to control the people’s right to bear arms! Read it! All of these gun control laws are unconstitutional!
@Idaho Bob Exactly
Come, let us reason together! “Shall not be infringed” does not “restrict” ANYTHING! It “prohibits” any such action by any government entity subject to the US Constitution.
Start red flagging everyone you know. Cops, politicians, local business owners, local news anchors, etc…
They would add a penalty for doing it to those they didn’t approve of it being done to so it would have to be done in such large numbers that the anti red-flag accusers themselves would also plug up the courts enough to prevent or at least greatly delay prosecution. It is hard to imagine that you could get than many people to take such a risk.
Adding a penalty for doing it might help
Burner phones are cheap, report the same mass murder (or whatever) using several voices from several phones and cops will respond with vigor. Then do it again tomorrow. I got a nickel says you can do that a lot longer than you can shoot cops coming in your door with a warrant. I’m not even sure it would be illegal, how could somebody prove that you *don’t* have serious fears about the mayor’s mental stability? Or the DA’s, or both?
Shouldn’t you already be able to file a civil rights lawsuit against someone that red flagged you under a false pretext?
“They have the right to enter and the will do it. If you resist, they will use force. Up to and including deadly force.”
A small point but an important one, IMHO… They certainly do NOT have the right to enter. They have a government sanctioned privilege to enter.
“They certainly do NOT have the right to enter. They have a government sanctioned privilege to enter.”
True but the point of the article is would you rather make that argument to a judge or to St. Peter?
Don’t be Maryland Man (Gary J. Willis).
Once a person has decided to engage in armed robbery, he’s already made the conscious decision that he’s OK with murdering you to take what you own.
When it becomes clear that armed robbers mean to stop at nothing, including murder, to rob you, kill them first. Do not resist a deadly home invasion robbery with anything short of fighting to the death without hesitation, pity or remorse. Armed robbers do not feel pity or remorse, which is why they will not hesitate to murder you.
Uh, OK. Yeah, because if I repulse the criminals (as defined by statute) then great.
If I somehow manage to repulse the law enforcers (by statute) they go get more guys, armored vehicles, NODs, armor, machine guns, helicopters etc and come back. At absolute best I’ve started another Ruby Ridge/Waco where they’re almost certain to kill me and every other living thing in the house.
So we’re back to tell it to the judge or tell it to St. Peter.
The difference is written words on paper, I get that, but those written words grant a type of authority to the enforcers and arguing the difference from the grave is a losing game 100% of the time. Even if you win the argument you’re still dead and you won’t win the argument because at that point you’re the “loony” who shot a bunch of cops.
If you want to win this you have to live long enough to present a case in court that changes the words on that paper so that the law enforcers no longer have the authority to do this kind of thing. Otherwise you’re just a dead nutbar on CNN with most of the country thinking “Good riddance to that asshole”.
Personally I prefer to win rather than bleed out on the floor or end up back in the ICU again. But hey, you do you.
Even if you go yo court, somehow win, and get your gun rights restored, you still already lost the war. You just won a minor battle in a losing war. The fact of just being subject to such nonsense and having to prove you are fit to have your rights is proof the war for protecting our rights is already lost.
“The fact of just being subject to such nonsense and having to prove you are fit to have your rights is proof the war for protecting our rights is already lost.”
Which, again, is why you go to court. You win the case, get your shit back and then sue to get the law overturned. That way we all win.
All “going out in a blaze of glory” does is get you dead and make the rest of us have to suffer under even more bullshit laws created because you just “proved” that gun owners are dangerous and gave the government 1) reason to keep the current law in place 2) made it less likely for the law to be overturned because the government can point to you as an example of the “legitimate interest” in having such laws and 3) made it more likely that even more laws are passed that the rest of us then have to deal with.
“I’m gonna shoot it out if they red-flag me” is pretty much the most selfish thing you could do. Just shoot yourself and save us all the goddamn trouble. That way all they can do is add you to the “gun violence” statistics that they inflate with suicide numbers. Your death will be like your life: stupid, short and inconsequential, which in my mind is way better than you being a martyr for more 2A infringement.
If you want to do stupid, self-destructive things that get you killed by all means, go right ahead but leave the rest of us alone.
Yep, just swallow the police’s dick and thank them for it. Then go broke going to a court that is already stacked against you with a lawyler that doesn’t give a crap and a DA hell bent to nail you to wall and has the full resources of the government to use to fight against you and your chump change. Not to mention a judge that wants side on error against you, and the media will tarnish you for fighting such common sense laws in court. Even if you do win, the cops can still refuse to return your guns anyway, or return them in non repairable condition. Then you have to hire a lawyer again to fight the police department in court again. In the mean time, another red flag order can be taken out against you, and have to fight all over in court again in a neverend cyfoe that can bankrupt you in legal costs as even half decent lawyers are a fortune to hire. Fat luck getting such laws overturnered unless you are Scrooge McDuck richto afford such a legal fight. All you can do is force the libs to further enhance and improve red flags laws to be even harder to fight in court in the future. Either way, you are losing the war hard, its a rigged game no matter what. Just the very fact ofbeing subject to a red flag order is the circular logic that will be used as proof that you are unfit to have firearms and you would be fighting a near impossible uphill legal battle against a broken court system that is drinking deep from the very kool-aid you are fighting. Sorry, but you are using Fudd logic here.
“Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.”
I’ve manned up plenty in my life. Fear isn’t the big factor. It really will be a question of it it is worth it to me at the time. Other situations have boiled down to that. Honestly, I won’t know which I’d rather deal with when the moment comes; the judge or St. Peter. As another older guy on here posted; it depends on how pissed off and fed up I am at that time.
That is assuming they even let you have such a choice. Sometimes the choice of which one you talk to is completely theirs, not yours.
How naive can you be. Do you honestly believe the court will not overturn any amount of “winning” eventually anyways? Take a history lesson. You, and the rest of us, will have to shed blood, lots of blood, to win anything. Sad, yes. Does anyone want to? No. Will we? Yes. The question is, which side will you chose? The long drawn out failure route that history has proven to be meaningless after so many years of losing legal battles and failed political stances, or the route that will actually get noticed and force a change? Maybe you just lack the balls to die for what is right, but don’t expect the rest of us to roll over and play dead with you.
Some things are worth more than life.
Not quite correct, John in Ohio. Governments have powers, not rights OR sanctioned privileges. Citizens have rights. Subjects have privileges.
Perhaps. But, what is a “power” of a legal fiction but privilege allowed by the People or an individual? Government certainly enjoys no rights. Therefore, powers must be privileges, IMHO.
From another angle; this government is supposed to be subject to a sovereign people. If the government is a subject then it only has those privileges allowed by the people. Calling those privileges “powers” doesn’t change the nature of what they are.
One solution is locate a storage unit several hundred miles away, and late one night with all of the lights in your home turned off, back your vehicle up to a door, and then load up all of your guns and ammunition and transport them to that storage unit. Buy a high security pad lock one that is going to take around 3000PSI and secure the door with it. Keep an inexpensive hand gun in the home for home protection such as a Highpoint and just enough ammunition for it, as well as just the cleaning equipment you need for it. Thus when the Gestapo do show up with an order signed by A Commie Judge you can give that as well as the bullets to it. Call your lawyer and let him/her know what is the going down, but tell NO_ONE that you removed them and where they are, most of all your lawyer or any neighbors or friends. Wait for your court date and be careful what you say in Court and to the questions you answer of the prosecutor or lawyer of the complainant in particular if it is your ex spouse or a commie neighbor. One thing you can get your lawyer to do is insure that the Judge you appear in front if is NOT THE one who signed the order, have him demand that that judge recuse themselves because they have already formed and opinion regarding your guilt or innocence.
Good article. I did, however, cringe at the suggestion of storing firearms somewhere else. In many states (like Colorado) that could result in an additional charge of an illegal “transfer” (thanks to the legislature in all their wisdom closing the “gun show loophole”).
All part of the plan. Make it hard enough to own guns, less gun owners to fight back. The ones that do exist will eventually run afoul of ever increasing and burdensome regulations and be subject to losing their firearms.
These arent common sense laws, they are a plan.
“I’m sorry, officer, but the inventory listed on your court order is in error.”
Better answer: “How the fuck should I know? Sounds like a YOU problem, dipshit.”
JK what “gun show loop hole?”
It might make you cringe but that’s what we did then. If I were much younger, I would do it again but on a larger scale. Heck, who am I kidding… If I could go back knowing what I do, I’d probably be dead by now.
(I applaud you for your honest answer, btw.)
Wow! Talk about surrendering the American Dream…Heresay is NOT “Due Process”! This is pretty lame advise. Go hide your stuff?!? Really!?!? We’re on the cusp of full scale “Authoritarianism” in the name of public safety . A False Government Narrative. A deliberate attempt to undermine the entire underpinnings of our very Constitutional Bill of Rights, and this is the best idea 💡! There SHOULD be major pushback AGAINST these ANTI-American forces and quickly! This should NOT stand! Pro2@ should be flooding the courts! Not this sad, wishy-washy approach! And that’s coming from a non-firearms owner who wholeheartedly supports OUR constitutional Bill of Rights! I’m alarmed at what I’m seeing! It won’t be before long that this slippery slope turns into a Canyon!
Speaking of due process and the idea of illegal search and seizure….. Let’s say someone red flags you. The police are granted a warrant based on hearsay. I have no idea how that is a legitimate basis for a warrant, but whatever. Let’s say during the confiscation that you cooperate with, the police discover some items like standard cap magazines that just happen to be felonies in your particular state of residence. Would you be charged with felonies for said magazines, or would that be dismissed in court as fruit of the poisonous tree? If the basis for the warrant wasn’t constitutional, then anything else found during the warrant search would be illegitimate right?
Most likely any item found which is prohibited will result in charges. Kiss your 2A rights goodbye.
WARFAB,
If you challenge the red-flag search for your firearms and the courts declare said search unconstitutional, I believe the courts are obligated to throw out your conviction for the illegal ammunition magazine that police found while searching for your firearms.
If courts uphold red-flag searches, I am pretty sure that anything which police find in plain view while “legitimately” searching for firearms is admissible as evidence.
Having just said that, I realize that red-flag searches are far more heinous than anyone originally imagined. Any police officer can say that he/she overheard you talking about attacking a school just to get a court order to search your home — for the actual (although not disclosed) purpose of trying to find other evidence in plain view in the process since a thorough search for firearms gives police the ability to go through EVERYTHING in your home. In other words this is a back-door way for police to go to anyone’s home and quite literally look through EVERYTHING — and ANYTHING that they find which is evidence of any crime would be admissible in court.
I am dead serious about that last paragraph. Suppose local police suspect that you are an illegal narcotics user although they have ZERO evidence. Of course they want to search your home for illegal narcotics but they cannot get a search warrant without any evidence of illegal narcotics usage. No problem: local police tell a judge that you want to attack a school. The judge issues a red-flag order with an order to search for and confiscate your firearms and ammunition. Since ammunition includes individual tiny .22 LR rimfire cartridges, police can “legitimately” search every place and object in your home that could possible have a single .22 LR rimfire cartridge. That means they can search every object, nook, and cranny. And if they happen to find illegal narcotics somewhere, that will be admissible as evidence in court as long as a single .22 LR rimfire cartridge could have been in the location where police found the narcotics.
It also means that police could use a bogus (self-generated) red-flag order to exact retribution on political enemies. Suppose you legitimately accused a Mayor, Senator, Representative, or Governor of wrongdoing. Next thing you know, police show up with a red-flag order and quite literally, totally and utterly, ransack your entire home. Every appliance and piece of furniture totally disassembled, flipped over, and shaken. Every food container poured out. Every drawer, cabinet, and storage container emptied. Think of how long it would take you to recover from that disaster.
“Would you be charged with felonies for said magazines, or would that be dismissed in court as fruit of the poisonous tree?”
If the court strikes down the law and therefore the warrant was unconstitutional the search and anything it yields *should* be thrown out if the court follows other examples the way they have with drug and murder cases in the past.
That’s what you’d have to hope for.
Of course, you could take another path, one advocated by some here, and treat the cops as home invaders and shoot it out with them. That course of action will only end with you dead or facing more serious charges of which you will surely be convicted. Well, that and the rest of us having to try to clean up the mess you made and losing more of our rights because you were an intemperate asshole who “proved” that red-flag laws are ab-so-fucking-lutely necessary because of nutballs like you.
An unreasonable response to an unreasonable law doesn’t increase the odds that we get rid of the unreasonable law. It only increases the odds that we all look bad and end up under the yoke of yet more unreasonable laws that seem reasonable to a lot of people since we’re all “obviously” a bunch of dangerous douchebags with “toys” that are “only meant to kill as many people as possible”, a theory to which everyone who shoots it out with the cops lends credence.
Same argument Fudds use to claim why gun owners should not own evil black semi autos.
“Same argument Fudds use to claim why gun owners should not own evil black semi autos.”
OK. How exactly is it the same?
Many Fudds believe gun owners should not own, use, or even fight to preserve the right to own semi-auto firearms as all it does is it gives credence to the antis stance to have all guns banned. That it is best to throw modern firearm owners under the bus in the vein hope it will appease the antis enough to not also go after hunting or Fudd style firearms. That attempting to fight laws against modern firearms just makes all gun owners look crazy. Basically, just lie down and think of England in hopes it won’t get worse if you just submit to being violated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre
I have always felt the best thing for people in red flag states is to hide most of their guns and ammo off their property in a location they feel is trustworthy and secure. Keep a couple of their lease favorite guns around with just a bit of ammo for them.
If they get red flagged, the cops will be fooled into thinking they have disarmed you. You can even tell the “truth”, “yes officer, you have taken all the guns and ammo I have here.” The second they drive off, you can drive to get another gun and some ammo from your hidden stash for your continued home self defense. Suckers.
I used to believe that, but I have since been convinced that it is not true. Or, if it is true, all police are informed formally (during training) what the “work around” is, what they have to claim happened in order to justify entering such facts into evidence. I’m not even sure I can condemn that, if the police exercise a warrant on the wrong address and discover the body of a naked little girl tied in the basement, do you think they should say “So sorry, my bad, please carry on!”?
I would say keep calm, plan ahead. Keep a encrypted log of your firearms sn#. If red flagged be on your best behavior. Report your firearms as stolen ( They essentially were.) to deter third parties from ” losing” your fire arms then at a later date selling them.
Again keep on your best behavior. If you know you have made enemies, I suggest you plan accordingly.
“Report your firearms as stolen ( They essentially were.)”
And there’s an easy conviction for the DA on a charge of lying on a police report.
You are aware that is a crime, don’t you?
Ha! Not in Crook County!!! Ask Jussie….
If you live in one of those states with red flag laws (WA, OR, CA, IL, IN, NY, NJ, MD, FL, RI, VT, CT, DE, MA), and now Colorado.
A who’s who list of states where the infection is deepest.
The ” INFECTION ” is spreading.
PA Republican Leadership Is Pushing Legislators to Enact Extreme Risk Protection Order (ERPO) Bills :: 04/15/2019
New Bills – SB 90 + HB 1075
https://foac-pac.org/Pa-Republican-Leadership-Is-Pushing-Legislators-To-Enact-Extreme-Risk-Protection-Order-Erpo-Bills/News-Item/9469
Sadly, I’m a non-firearms owner, behind the “Iron Curtain in an Eastern Bloc Socialist Utopian Police-State….
New Jersey?
Honestly, I don’t give a shit. And I don’t give a shit what the NSA thinks, either. If anyone, criminal, government, or space alien ever shows up at my house to confiscate my guns, they better pack a lunch, because it’s gonna be a long day. The rest of you can go on living in Australia and Great Britain. I’m not going to live the rest of my life with my balls cut off like that.
I strongly advise surrendering after the SWAT team arrives in response to your shooting the first offenders several times each. Then you can be really noisy in court and people will actually be listening!
The crooked cops ( is there any other kind ? ) will beat you REAL BAD, then Kill you READ BAD if you surrender. Then they will plant all kinds of goodies in your home to further ” Justify ” the outcome.
Fury, if you live a life that afraid, you need to look for another place to live.
Then why don’t YOU become a police officer and show us all how it SHOULD be done? Put up or shut up.
“…will beat you REAL BAD, then Kill you READ BAD if you surrender.”
Uhm… I’m curious as to how someone can be killed good or well?
“Uhm… I’m curious as to how someone can be killed good or well?”
Well, if you call shooting someone “lighting them up” then it works just like a steak. Not killed well enough, shoot them until they’re “well done”.
“Then you can be really noisy in court and people will actually be listening!”
The experience with the shooter in NZ suggests otherwise. No one is listening to what that asshole said. In fact they’re playing a game he created and which they ultimately cannot win. Even reasonably smart people right here on TTAG are calling him “nuts” or a “nationalist” or a “white supremacist”.
Granted, he was a total asshole who attacked innocent people but if you shoot it out with the cops initially and then surrender everything you say in court will be the “ravings of a lunatic who shot X cops in cold blood!”. You’ll be Exhibit A of exactly why that law was put in place.
Good luck finding a jury that gives a flying fuck about your rights after you assist a bunch of “upstanding police officers” who were “just trying to enforce a reasonable law” in shuffling off this mortal coil. Pull this shit in some states and you’ll get to make a big show of talking in your “last words” right before they give you the needle.
If you want to have a conversation about getting rid of the law the way to do that is not to take actions that most people will interpret as being evidence that the law was, in fact, a great idea because it got your crazy ass off the street.
Quote: “Granted, he was a total asshole who attacked innocent people” End Quote
Maybe you should go read up on who he shot. I’m not sure that totally fits.
I’m not going to get into this whole “Islam is evil” thing.
The guy’s logic was impeccable if you accept his base premise. I don’t accept that premise because it’s wrong. It’s wrong because it’s based on an incorrect interpretation of history and uses that interpretation to paint an enormous number of people with a very, very broad brush.
Were I to accept his base premise then I would be forced to admit that a world-wide network of fascist states is the answer because, as I said, if you accept the premise his logic is flawless.
If enough people believe such unjust laws are good enough to pass, and already have passed, you all ready lost trying to fight it after the fact as everyone will think you are just a crazy loon for even suggesting to overturn such a “good” law. Afterall, if the proposal for such a law was so bad, it could not have passed into law in the first place.
“No one is listening to what that asshole said.”
I think that the organized censorship by governments is playing a huge role in that outcome. Many are not “listening” because governments have silenced what was being said.
“The guy’s logic was impeccable if you accept his base premise. I don’t accept that premise because it’s wrong. It’s wrong because it’s based on an incorrect interpretation of history and uses that interpretation to paint an enormous number of people with a very, very broad brush.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERou_Q5l9Gw&t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmsL0p6jnI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBGn9KHX50k
PRECISELY !!!
Does anyone think that trying to take guns away from someone who is an alleged threat at their home a bad idea? Say the person is unstable, how many dead cops is it going to take to realize this is a bad policy? It sounds like a great opportunity for suicide by police after crazy unloads 100 rounds from an ar15 or ak at you.
ya im not doing that job. no thanks.
The problem is that even the statutes that include a due process clause require less than usual legal administration to issue the confiscation order. It isn’t like one could dump the “contraband” down the toilet if speed weren’t observed. It should be nothing less that a court date with the full disclosure of one’s accuser, as is the normal process, and time for the “defendant” to prepare a defense, should be allowed!
What exactly is “unstable”? Do you even know? I can assure you medical professionals won’t agree on just what something as nebulous sounding a “unstable” actually means. And that’s the problem. By decided that an otherwise free citizen is potentially going to commit a violent act is enormously presumptive. The reason we have a bill of rights and a constitution is to protect individuals from just those sorts of decisions. It’s what makes us a country. Under our system of laws you actually have to DO something wrong before you can can be arrested and charged. Just because someone thinks you’re unstable don’t cut it.
Spot on.
“Does anyone think that trying to take guns away from someone who is an alleged threat at their home a bad idea?”
Yes, I do believe that government trying to take guns away from someone who is an alleged threat at their home is a bad idea. It’s poisonous to liberty. If left unencumbered by government, peace loving armed people around him would solve the issue through legitimate self-defense; a manner more consistent with a free society. It’s a choice between dangerous freedom and peaceful servitude.
If someone is such a grave threat, what do you think they’re going to do if the cops show up out of the blue, confiscate their property without due process and then just allow them to go on about their business? Anyone who is that great a threat is going to find or make a weapon and take care of business. That’s why these red flag laws are bullsh*t. They allow the “threat” to continue being a threat… only now they’ve got even more of a grudge.
I imagine that comments you make in places like this one could well be used for red flagging, in the not to distant future. Consider your words carefully before you make them public permanently.
This is very true. If we live in a society where merely posting about your rights, or gun ownership, or telling someone you own guns, or flying the Gadsden flag, or “rubbing someone the wrong way”, is enough to get you black bagged, then liberty is already dead. My prediction: what will come next is voting a certain way (Republican/tea party/trump etc…) will also get you flagged. Projecting to much masculinity or self sufficiency will get you labeled a “crazed prepper” and flagged. Saying anything deemed “racist” or “sexist” will get you jailed. Then comes the nationwide door to door confiscation.
In New Zealand, liking a Trump Tweet is reason enough for the police to rob your of your air rifle collection.
To late…YOUR already a Chinese dissident! (Oops,I mean a “Politically incorrect American.” )—as more of my meta-data is scooped up into a giant sat-dish array….
Yeah. But you and I live in a (still) free State. How much longer, no one knows. The (not) liberals are starting to creep in. Thank Whomever that it is too tough to live here for most of the weak kneed metros. Maybe we should burn Jackson down?
Reply to Vic Nighthorse.
By my napkin arithmetic, if 1.5% (of the average demographic) of greater LA, SF, Portland and Seattle moved here, the progs would gain control of the state. I could get an ulcer contemplating that.
The Denver-metro area is slowly creeping into the southeast portion of the state. The kids and grandkids of the Californians that ruined Colorado, now have their sights set on Wyoming. The worst part is that very few people in the state have the resolve or concern to stand against the inevitable infringements.
I think better is to cancel your email SUBs to TTAG! This outlet has become a sad “NOT PRO2@ News outlet”. Sunk to the level of “garbage tier” leftist surrender nonsense…Time to say goodbye, I’m cancelling!
@Arron, SO go already….
If it stops the constant posting of the constitution I’m for Aaron departing.
Y’all can laugh at Aaron all you want, but he’s right. You won’t be laughing when your standing in line at your local police station to turn your guns in. And it’ll get worse, too. Getting rid of the lawfully owner guns is simply one of the first steps towards much more horrifying goals.
@GridSquare If it ever gets to that point, do you think the people in front of the police station will be turning in their guns or firing them at the police? I would bet the latter…. If you don’t think it can’t happen, it already has…https://www.americanheritage.com/battle-athens
I hope you are correct MB.
Most gun owners would cave and surrender them in the blind hope they can maybe one day get them back in court. That is the point of this article.
@Bad Hat Harry — Except that’s demonstrably untrue and you’d actually know what you’re talking about had you done even a cursory search literally just about anywhere. There has been between 0 – 5% compliance even in deep-blue cesspools like The People’s DemoKKKratiKKK RepubliKKK of DIS-connected-cut, Screw-You Jersey, ZOO York, and even KKKommiefornia to any of the bans on guns and accessories.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/3/boulder-colorado-assault-weapons-ban-met-mass-non-/
https://hudsonvalleyone.com/2016/07/07/massive-noncompliance-with-safe-act/
https://www.ammoland.com/2015/11/los-angeles-bans-highcap-mags-not-1-turned-in/
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/03/27/not-one-bump-stock-was-turned-since-they-were-banned-rhode-island-state-police-say/zkL0kODvnrYXni46Fir3uK/story.html
And that’s just a handful of examples out of hundreds that I found in seconds.
Not to mention the other inconvenient fact that permanently puts a complete and final end to your little pitty parade to inevitable doom, and whether you personally like to think it does or not is immaterial and irrelevant, is that dozens of duly-elected Sheriffs in all of these states have stated out-loud that they won’t enforce these laws, either. As well they shouldn’t.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/colorado-sheriffs-who-wont-enforce-anti-gun-red-flag-law-should-resign-state-ag-says
https://www.apnews.com/b186ce346d2d446babceaf15fec68e6c
So, what actually needs to happen here is that you need to stop with the bullshit whining and whingeing and realize that you’re wrong when you inaccurately castigate millions of people as cowards — already knowing full well that your demonstrably baseless assertion can only possibly come from willful ignorance on your part — who are, in fact, actively resisting and not complying with these stupid new laws being passed. The next time you think you want say that people will be “lining up to turn in their guns,” remember that you actually don’t because you literally don’t know what you’re talking about.
Excerdrine,
I was simply giving a quick summary of the article. Not that I agree with the piece and do agree with you.
244 years ago there took place the most pivotal horseback ride in American history. Paul Revere and William Dawes each left Boston by a different route. Both had the solemn mission of reaching Concord in time to warn the Colonial Militia that the Regulars were out, with orders to confiscate the town’s stores of gunpowder, and to alert Samuel Adams and John Hancock that part of the Regulars’ orders were to apprehend and arrest them. In these missions they were successful. They also began a chain reaction. Each man and woman they warned of the Army’s movements that night then in turn warned others. It was so effective that by noon the next day there were an estimated 10,000 colonial militiamen in the hills between Concord and Boston.
Today is the anniversary of the Battles of Concord and Lexington. On April 19th, 1775, a bunch of dedicated farmers, shopkeepers, merchants, men, women, and yes, children, faced down a large contingent of what was, at the time, the greatest standing army on earth, and WON. They didn’t just win a moral victory, they also won a tactical one. As General Sir Hugh Percy would later write to a friend back in England, “whomever looks upon them as an irregular mob will find themselves very much mistaken, for they have men among them who know very well what they are about.”
Bundy Ranch was a near thing. Fortunately there were cool heads—on both sides—and a disaster was averted. Concord Bridge, The Battle of Kings Mountain, and now Bundy Ranch were defining moments in our history,.
GridSquare 👍
I guess when the original owner/publisher left for his “Pro2@ retirement bunker.” He forgot about his readership!
I’m not particularly worried but ya’ never know. What I DO know is Aaron Walker or is it Aaron M. Walker(?) is a troll…
No shit Mr. Horse. In a previous post today the discussion was all about not being able to stop the signal. If one has to blab at least use a VPN, Ghostery and other security.
Don’t resist and get yourself killed. The only way to prevent gun confiscation is to get involved in grass roots politics and stop these people before it happens.
Or file court cases to get the laws overturned… which you cannot do if you are dead.
And for those of us not stupid enough to think we can win a fight against armored vehicles with an AR, our job gets harder as morons pile up the evidence that these laws are “exactly what we need” because who shoots it out with the cops when they could just go to court? Nutbars, “obviously”. And who is the law “aimed” at? Nutbars, “obviously”.
Optics are a fucking thing.
You also can’t overturn laws without your own mint and an army of lawyers and politicians on your payroll, cough Bloomburg, cough. Only choice is to bend over and take it good, then go back and beg to be unraped by the very people who did it to you. Even at a slim chance of winning in court, it is an awlful thing to live with allowing yourself to be violated like that and something that can never be compensated for. Even in court, you are still fighting the antis on their court, on their terms, at their convenience, giving them every advantage possible.
So, you’ve missed the recent group of decisions that have gone the way of 2A supporters?
Like I said, you do you, but don’t labor under the delusion that you’re doing the 2A rights movement any good because you’re not. The answer to this is not to shoot people. That will only make things far, far worse for POTG.
All this nonsense about “We’re past working within the system! Bring on Civil/Revolutionary War 2.0! Hang/Shoot the traitors!” is ridiculous. Statistically speaking the probable outcome of that set of actions is a situation that’s worse than what we have now. Our revolution was a historical anomaly. What’s going on now in Libya is far more common.
That is why we are already at zugzwang. Many of those wins can and probably will either be overturned, circumvented by new gun control laws, or just plain ignored. There have been many cases where victims of gun confiscations had to fight in courts for years, took one woman half a decade in court to get her guns back. Even after winning, there have been cases the cops still refused to return guns to their owners even after several court orders and lawsuits. One guy had to get two court orders and a NRA backed lawsuit to get his guns back from the cops, who still destroyed his guns anyway and only gave him money, he won the battle but still lost the war. Remember, its tax payer money, politicians and cops don’t care how they spend or waste it, the guy still lost his guns forever despite winning in court. Chances are, even if you do everything right and play by their rules, you still probably will never see those guns again. The government doesn’t play by the same rules it mandates under threat of death me and you must play by.
A common anti gunner talking point against modern firearms is that it is a dangerous fantasy to believe owning an AR15 will do you any good, as the government can easily just kill you and take them anyway. Furthermore they claim this makes owning an AR15 or other guns, especially modern guns completely pointless and foolish now as the government can take them by overwhelming force for nearly any excuse. So it is pointless to resist further gun control as 2A has already been outmoded by the shear power of government forces. Sadly, they may be correct, and we have already reached zugzwang with gun ownership years ago.
The best outcome, may be if there are too many cases of cops mistakenly killing gun owners who were fully cooperating with their orders that results in the laws being repealed. Even then, the antis still benefit as they would have eliminated many gun owners by such a point. The antis still win.
Besides, the people you should be shooting are the politicians and gun control advocates who are responsible for the law. This doesn’t even require an AR, just a relatively accurate bolt gun and a good BDC scope. A few patient men, with the right equipment, in good hide could change the trajectory of an entire state.
This
I’d rather be a nutbar than a sniveling coward.
(And, NO, I am not calling you or anyone else here a coward… or a nutbar, for that matter.)
There is no mention of air guns. Will the court order also include them? Some laws consider them as firearms.
Once upon a time, there was a king named George. Recent events had suggested to him that some people in his colonies might be rebellious, even dangerous. He heard that some of them might be hoarding arms and rations. Perhaps they would start a rebellion!
King George (he was the third in his line) asked his governors to encourage the people to rat out any of their neighbors that might be hoarding these things because… well, who needs more than one gun anyway?
Once a sufficient list of likely scoundrels had been created, the king instructed his governors to send his law enforcers against people on the list who lived in the villages of Concord and Lexington. The king’s orders were to confiscate these people’s arms and to kill them if they resisted.
Fortunately, there were many spies within this band of brothers. They were aware of the king’s plans. They decided that rather than subject their families to the danger of armed government men in their homes, they would instead arm themselves and meet these government men en masse in the road. Of course, this was only the beginning of the battle for liberty for these rebellious men, but this small action did set the terms on which the battle would be waged.
Of course this story has nothing at all to do with this current topic. To suggest otherwise might imply something … well, rebellious.
Those afraid to speak out are worried about getting put on a ” List ”
Newsflash , you’re already ON that list.
4 – 19 – 1775 ; there were many riders , not just Paul Revere.
Expect the police to behave in a very hostile manner. You can behave the same way, or not. In either case it’s unlikely you will ever see your property again. If you don’t stand up for yourself nobody is going to do it for you. You just have to decide how you want to live your life.
Stick to predicting lottery numbers; you will have better luck.
@ Clark, you are free to live on your knees, being a subject, I prefer being a citizen, who believes in the Constitution and my rights come from God, not the Government. If you are not prepared to die for what you believe in why be an American, move to England where you can be a subject again. Too many Americans died to protect liberty, and you are willing to let it slip away because you want go back to your chair and your popcorn and let someone else die. No thanks, I will chose to die fighting for liberty.
Why don’t you put on a badge and show us how to do it. Being a police officer and enforcing unconstitutional laws is not as easy as you think. Give the poor cops a break for crying out loud
@possum Way too old. Besides I never once criticized the cops in my statement. I support law enforcement in may ways. Most of the cops I know would not enforce those “red flag” confiscation laws. Maybe because they served in the military, and they believe in the oath they took in the service or as cop, or maybe they selfish enough and smart enough to want to home without multiple .30 caliber holes in their bodies. In any case, “red flag” laws are unconstitutional, a majority of the sheriff’s know it and don’t plan to enforce it. The foolish ones that do are likely to regret it, if they survive it.
Oh, Possum, then I guess you won’t be criticizing any presidents, congressmen, senators, bankers, Nazis, water meter readers, etc? To do otherwise would be a tad hypocritical.
I have always felt the best thing for people in red flag states is to hide most of their guns and ammo off their property in a location they feel is trustworthy and secure. Keep a couple of their lease favorite guns around with just a bit of ammo for them.
If they get red flagged, the cops will be fooled into thinking they have disarmed you. You can even tell the “truth”, “yes officer, you have taken all the guns and ammo I have here.” The second they drive off, you can drive to get another gun and some ammo from your hidden stash for your continued home self defense. Suckers
Aaron MANCHURIAN Walker.
They will disarm us eventually.they have to so their plan of world domination can proceed.with that said I have made my peace with God thru Christ and I know where I’m going when I die.our Constitution and bill of Rights are God given.but the way we treat Him in the USA today He could allow this to happen.so it will be a blood bath on both sides.i will do my best to make as many bleed as possible.each of you have to decide, freedom or slavery.i have
I have no problem handing over my iron-sighted bolt action .22 and break open single barrel 12g, both of which are stored unloaded and in a small safe. Please take them and leave. No, that is not a hidden staircase in the closet.
We POTG simply need to fight smarter for our 2A rights, vote, donate time and money, bring in new POTG, engage in rational conversation with moderates. Buying guns and ammo is a small effort of “doing-my-part”. It must be a multifacited approach. Folks in CA tasted freedoom during the MAGA-zine buying frenzy, they best be fighting harder for 2A in CA. Folks in free states, never rest on your laurels, fight to keep what you have and be that example to others. A few folks talking about going out in a blaze of glory, if it happens do you want to be rememberd as some crazy gun nut or patriotic freedom fighter?
So the Founding Fathers were ‘crazy gun nuts’ and not patriotic freedom fighters?
I am a retired police officer. Unless I have committed a felony crime of violence, if one comes to my door to disarm my house, we will die together.
I had to smile when I read that. I understand.
Everyone sleeps.
I have heard comments about these seizures, and how chances are, you will not get your property back in the same condition as when they were taken.
If you were forced to turn over your property to LEO pending resolution, you should be allowed to pack them up after LEO have confirmed them safe. Oiled/socked for long term storage, cased and locked, tagged and receipt provided.
Any facts to back up your assertions? I’m waiting…..
Look up Michael Roberts who surrendered his family heirloom firearms to the police like a good boy. He played by their rules, went to court, and got two court orders for their return which the police ignored. After winning a NRA backed lawsuit against the department for the return of his guns, the cops destroyed his heirlooms and just gave him money. Other times it can takes years in court to restore gun rights and have firearms returned. It took one woman in NY 5 years fighting in court to get her guns returned. Plenty of horror stories like this on the net.
You don’t seriously believe that cops will let you anywhere near your firearms they came to collect, instead of putting you in handcuffs for ‘officer’s safety’, do you? Remember, you are so unhinged and potentially violent, that for public and your own safety you must be disarmed.
So reading this a second time, did you mean to suggest the village of Deerfield has some nice flower beds under which to bury your PVC pipe?
You can shoot it out with the cops that day or take the fight to them on your own terms where you have anonymity and surprise on your side, but you all should have at least one gun stashed and cached already. Dont fight by their rules on their terms.
Get off your whiny asses and work to get the right people elected ….or complain and make vague suicidal vows.
Or we can vote for the likes of AOC and then everybody MUST decide.
AOC for prez in 2020!
You might also wish to discuss with competent legal counsel the filing of civil and or criminal actions against the person who instigated the problem, assuming that their complaint was not legitimate.
I think with red flags laws, they generally protect the identity of the accuser.
Could file a John Doe lawsuit against the accuser.
I can’t say what I’ll do when/if “they” come to serve an ERPO on me, honestly. A lot depends on if my young daughter is here when it happens. No child should have to see her parent killed, or be subjected to the same fate because ‘Dad wanted to be a 2A hero’. TTAG is giving us info and options; what we do with them is up to us each, individually. However, the fight against this modern tyranny MUST be met collectively, in unison, and with a resounding trumpet blare, so that those who would subjugate us know that we free people, followers and defenders of the Constitution; Bill of Rights; The Declaration of Independence; and the Federalist Papers, will fight them and their agents, and kill them, and perhaps be killed ourselves, in the cause of freedom and liberty! I voted for 45, but it is his words after the Parkland, FL M.S.D. High School shooting which have cancerous growth to ‘Re Flag’ laws. Trump said, paraphrased: …take the guns first, worry about due process after/later. He also used executive fiat to enact the now active bump stock ban, and he nominated Barr, a man who is in record starting that ‘there is room to legislate around the 2nd Amendment’, and who only advocated for additional gun controls, to the office of Attorney General, this country’s most powerful lawyer. The president publicly embraces the 2A and presents as a friend to the NRA, but his actions are contrary. There can be no appeasement or compromise with ‘the other side’…and in some cases, this supposed same side. Marco Rubio is the sponsor for the Senate bill meaning to enact federal ‘Red Flag’ law. None of them are above reproach. I hope we can avoid red flag law here in Ohio; with the current state legislature and governor/AG, there is even a push in place to pass constitutional carry in Ohio. This country is headed for eventual civil war…again. I pray God will put me on the right side of His plan, and use me for His work. God bless all of you!
So what do you think it would be like for firearms owners right now if HiLIARy was POTUS?
@Clark Kent. But Hillary isn’t, and never will be. And if she tried it, well, it wouldn’t turn out like she would want it to.
Obviously, worse! The point is, 45 is no bulwark for gun owners’ rights, the 2nd Amendment; or the Constitution. I would have voted for a horse turd before Ramrod, but those who sell themselves as conservatives, or put an (R) in front of their names are generally expected to not sell their gun-owning, God-fearing, law-abiding, family values-supporting constituents down the river. It shouldn’t be “well, who has done less to destroy gun rights?”
Maybe, if Killary had won, (R)epublicons would be fighting against gun confiscation instead of proposing the legislation? Not to “defend the 2nd” but to deny her a political win.
That was a Good, sober, and honest post, Conservative_MJ.
Unfortunately, Cincinnati has gone leftist and is fading fast. The north of Ohio is a liberal swamp and now the south of Ohio is turning. Eventually, it will close in on Columbus.
What guns? You mean the ones that sank in the Arkansas river with the homemade raft I built for the annual Hobo boat race? So sorry Ociffers, they’re somewhere in the reever between Canyon City and Swink.
some states (like massachusetts) have a de facto gun registration so much of the advice in this piece is irrelevant.
we in the 2a community better learn from our adversaries or get used to losing. unite (i’m looking at you, fudds), organize, look at the long game, and go on the offensive rather than always reacting. and one of the best pieces of advice i’ve been given is to support those who support us, such as goa. find groups that actually are uncompromising and support them with your dollars.
Can they take all guns in the house, if both husband and wife are owners of guns, but only one is served, can they also take the others lawfully owned guns?
No firearms, regardless of who owns them, can remain under the same roof with a Red Flagged individual. If your teenager wears a MAGA hat to school and a liberal staffer denounces him to the po-po as a threat to others, then the po-po come for your guns since he lives in your house.
The worst part of Red Flag is lack of penalty for making a false report. What would have been prosecuted as felony perjury gets not even a slap on the wrist. The warning, “Never lie to a cop and especially don’t lie to a judge” has gone out the window.
Yes.
Even with a lawyer, has anyone ever gotten their guns back after a red flag confiscation? The 1 year extension of the 21 day order is practically automatic if I understand my judge friend because no one wants to be responsible for not extending and having an incident.
That fellow in Vermont, whose guns were seized blatantly in violation of the seizure law, the one whose nephew said he’d give guns to another kid the gun owner never met?
His guns were swiftly returned to him with apologies from the authorities for their lawbreaking released to a friend of his, and he can visit them to look at them and clean them but he can’t take them outdoors and use them. And remember, the seizure law in Vermont requires that the gun owner be adjudged to be an imminent threat before the seizure order can be authorized…
Oh, crap, messed up the html and can’t edit it.
His guns were
swiftly returned to him with apologies from the authorities for their lawbreakingreleased to a friend of his, and he can visit them to look at them and clean them but he can’t take them outdoors and use them. And remember, the seizure law in Vermont requires that the gun owner be adjudged to be an imminent threat before the seizure order can be authorized…Hey TTAG, why am I barred from leaving comments while using a VPN?
I would imagine it’s got something to do with the Feds behind the Heads.
Some misinformation in this article. In most states a red flag confiscation order is NOT a search warrant so the police do not have the right to enter and search your home. It’s a civil matter not a criminal matter at that point.
Don’t allow them in and don’t give them a reason to go get a search warrant. Don’t talk to them at all or even open the door. Call your lawyer instead. Soon after they have served the order to you you are required to attend a hearing at which you state under oath that you do not have possession of firearms. Possession of firearms after being served with the order and lying under oath are both crimes and if you give the judge reason to suspect you of either he will issue a search warrant.
To all of the above. You ARE on a list. Former military? Check. Former cop? Check. Vote Republican? Check. Buy guns? Check. Use Amazon to buy books? Check. Use the inter net to read TTAG? Check. See how it works? Check.
Watch out for all these posts, the feds are watching too. Never say to move or bury weapons, they will find them.
This is why I try and talk all the local guys at the watering hole just how important VOTING is, not just the presidential but every election down to the township level, that is the first line of defense that we can ALL participate in…After that, well that remains to be seen…
Don’t post pics / videos of your firearms on social media.
NEVER!!!!
this is the problem with Red Flag anyone that wants to hurt someone can file a Complaint in just What Universe is this RIGHT Innocent till proven Guilty is being Circumvented in the most Unconstitutional way ! We the people Demand The Supreme Court gets this Fixed and end this Attack on the Rights of AMERICAN Citizens
How will you prepare when they come to inject you with whatever they want? They are already going door to door in NY, and only an assclown fool is naive enough to think it ends with vaccines,
Cool. And the first time a battered spouse gets shot by their abusive other, and the victim points to this article as to how their assailant managed to hide their guns from the police who were executing a lawful order, I hope John Boch gets his ass sued off for writing the instructions. You suck, John.
So we should just be too scared to even discuss this possibility. Gotcha.
Those jeans and sneakers… did those cops in the photo use a time machine from the 90s?
Anyway… the best advice above is about your mate. While there are some examples of problems coming from employment, school, etc, the vast majority will come from a romantic partner who is either scared or pissed. Either way you’re fucked. Don’t show off your gun collection to that crazy gal you took home twice.
When the time comes, all y’all cowards will comply…one way or another.
I think the bottom line is don’t live with someone you can’t trust.Move you stuff somewhere else and get a divorce if you have too. I’m no expert, but you would probably be better off filing first than waiting to get served, and being accused of being a pedo sociopath with guns.
Also build a polymer 80 Glock clone and hide it in the attic under the insulation or in your air ducts with a few mags and a box of ammo. At least then you won’t be defenseless.
I know if anyone ever caused me to be served with one of these I would do everything in my power to ruin them. But if someone is a crazy ahole, get them out of your life now. Why wait for the inevitable drama. They aren’t worth it.
How long before lawyers make a GVRO / ERPO the DEFAULT position for a divorce?
Protective orders are standard practice on many military installations already and wait until liability lawyers get some damages from a divorcing woman harmed with a gun.
Lawyers already tell women to claim abuse during a divorce case just so they have more leverage.
And “don’t live with someone you can’t trust” means don’t live with women or have children which is what the left wants of us anyway so people with our values die out.
All the comments on this thread are reactive. Nobody ever won a battle let alone a war this way. There is only attack, attack, and attack some more… gun aficionados need better plans!
Here is the full quote:
“Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more”
― George S. Patton Jr.
Well, those are some nice instructions on how to be a good little subject to the government, when they are literally at your door about to take your guns away without due process or committing a crime. Best of luck, this will be the last article I read on this site.
Do not resist, and do NOT talk to the police. Do not aid them, do not comment, do not resist. Offer nothing. Concede nothing.
Talking will NEVER aid you in any way, shape or form. Say NOTHING.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t
As an old retired cop who has seen a SWAT team in action at many a barricade situation, I would advise you to follow the common-sense suggestions in the article. As a Keyboard Komando you may think you’re equipped with all of the skills and equipment you need to hold off a SWAT team indefinitely. You’re not and you won’t. You will live only as long as the police surrounding your abode decide to let you live and then you will die when they consider your actions hazardous to them or a member of the public. They will try to talk you out and if that doesn’t work they’ll overwhelm you with tear gas. If that doesn’t work they’ll put in so many “Speed-heat” tear gas canisters that you won’t be able to put them all out before a fire starts and your house will burn down over your head. Whether you are in it at the time is up to you. Come out shooting and the counter sniper who has been to the Marine Corps sniper school will drop you without fail – unless another cop shoots you first.
Will the POTG consider you to be a patriotic martyr? Some may, but I’m willing to bet that most people will consider you to have been a nut job and/or an idiot. Of course, the electorate will be severely alarmed by all of the ruckus you’ve caused and there will be even further abridgment of the Second Amendment, perhaps to the point that we won’t even be allowed to KEEP arms, much less bear them. We don’t want that. If the authorities show up with a court order and demand your guns, write a quick note declaring your opposition to the seizure and then blow your brains out. Maybe that will get you the martyrdom you seek.
“As a Keyboard Komando you may think you’re equipped with all of the skills and equipment you need to hold off a SWAT team indefinitely. You’re not and you won’t.”
Well stated. Such is the lot of many who post here. I’m lucky that my state has so far steered clear of this BS law. If it ever gets to this point, I’ll comply but not aid. If they can find untraceable firearms, more power to them.
Old hawg.your right.but when it happens all over at once they may be overwhelmed and maybe alot of them will die for their arrogant oath break.once they get the guns then genocidal murder takes place anyway
Well said Hawg! Knowing plenty of cops, most go into a house with an armed individual mentally expecting to shoot.
The best way to avoid tragedy is to buy a dog with a loud bark for home defense and keep your guns at the range/gun club/storage where you practice your hobby and NEVER post social media anything about your guns.
So when the cops come to take whatever they want, just bend over and present your rear for their use? Basically there is no longer a point in owning guns to protect yourself as the government can come and take them away from you at any time for nearly any excuse and kill you if you dare to object. POTG have already lost, redflag laws are zugzwang to us.
Fuck them kill them all.many will die.lets make the bastards bleed.iam personally sick of their false bravado.rise up and torture the oath breaking faggots
“POTG have already lost, redflag laws are zugzwang to us.”
Speak for yourself Bad Hat… If you and the other uneducated POTG can’t think the situation through – to your advantage – then yes, you’ve already lost. Unless you live in Cali, NY, Hawaii, or a bastion liberal/commie state then you DO have options. Duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sadly I do live in a so called Commie state, where my chances of ever recovering my rights and firearms in such a situration are slim. Once they are at your door, its too late.
He isnt saying don’t fight, he’s saying don’t let the fight be during their ambush while they’re ready and you’re in your underwear. You can pick a better time for violence to happen. Wait until the cop is picking up his kid in the gun free school zone and shoot him in the back of the head. Shoot him through the door of the portojohn when he is at the town picnic. Fight when you have the advantage, not when they do.
You’re a plant, engendering fear.
The article is talking about Red Flags, not rolling in and killing non-compliants.
Glad to see you went home every day to retire then keep carrying water.
I have always felt the best thing for people in red flag states is to hide most of their guns and ammo off their property in a location they feel is trustworthy and secure. Keep a couple of their least favorite guns around with just a bit of ammo for them.
If they get red flagged, the cops will be fooled into thinking they have disarmed you. You can even tell the “truth”, “yes officer, you have taken all the guns and ammo I have here.” The second they drive off, you can drive to get another gun and some ammo from your hidden stash for your continued home self defense. Suckers
Tempest in a teacup. I believe that the vast majority of people served under the red flag laws have been abusive in some way. But instead of going on hunches, let see some actual statistics. Does the NRA track the number of “bad” red flag warrants versus the total number served?
Isn’t one innocent person deprived of liberty enough for you? Cattle.
Dispose,, (give away, throw away…) of your guns, if you’re convinced that the wherabouts (8 digit Geo coordinate) are unknown and no longer in your possession you will be able to convince any else of that. Who TF has registered guns anyway?
Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if this website isn’t a front to collect information on who to sutveil. Lol
Our side’s failure to take ownership of this Red Flag idea and run with it, to make it our’s with all the Due Process protections we want, is going to bite us in the ass eventually. Existing law could be used to make the same concept work, stopping the violent morons from hurting people and bringing the focus wrongly upon us. We could be pushing to leverage those laws, writing the proposed legislation to fix what is wrong with them.
Every incident that could be prevented is a hit on us who had nothing to do with it. It is fuel for the hoplophobes, and our side allows them to suck it all up and beat on us with it.
Dumb!
Keep junkers in sight, hide a few in house, keep majority scattered amoung friends or stashed. Don’t have 223 ammo if there’s not a 223 shooter to go with it… What would I do if knock knock kicky., Turn white, go numb, get shoved around and carted off to jail. I fought them once, yah can’t win, not all by your lonesome. Also some of these post talk of the fights in court. Well yes and no, most redflag laws will be against people of lower income, hide and watch, most of those will get a court appointed lawyer, I’d suggest a manaquin instead. . . …It is what it is
I like to hear from active duty cops. How can you, a person that has taken an oath to protect the constitution in all its glory, enforce a law you know is unjust and unconstitutional? Don’t say I’m following orders, you know not to follow orders if they are truly wrong or illegal! I took the oath when I thought we were going to war with Iran in early 80’s, and these laws I will not follow. I want to know why so many officers will follow an illegal law, not just the red flag BS but illegals over Americans? I just don’t understand how they can justify it? Just like no knock warrants? I know two incidents in just past year that has killed 4 innocent people, cause the cops didn’t do their due diligence. Smh
Cops do it for the love of community safety and view armed assholes as a danger; most cops don’t see it as their duty to play armchair Supreme Court and follow judges’ orders.
Not a cop but have many cop friends.
Sadly, most if not all LEOs view all non LEO gun owners as armed assholes that need to be put down.
lol you’re nuts or you’ve only been exposed to cops in environments that foster that culture: NYC, Baltimore, etc. Maybe you should read some actual cop sources before you decide what all cops think. Start with Second City Cop Blog from lovely Chicago.
On the Domelights forum back in the late 2000’s (2008-2010 or so) Philly cops used to threaten to shoot open carriers in the head if they saw one. To the best of my knowledge the site got shut down eventually and none of us ever got shot by PPD despite some really good efforts. Mark Fiorino did get thrown to the ground roughly and a lot of us got threatened.
So why do “all your cop friends” view your neighbors with firearms as ‘assholes’? Why do they hate or fear their neighbors so deeply that they would gladly put them in a position of kill or die? How willing will they be to confiscate guns when citizens start shooting back and some of them don’t come home to their families because they wanted to disarm some ‘asshole’ whos only crime was offending a snowflake?
Cops don’t mind neighbors with guns. Many cops shoot at the same ranges as their neighbors.
Anyone becomes an “armed asshole” the minute the cops have to serve/arrest/search/etc anyone with a gun because it makes the cop’s job dangerous,
So its Order 66.
SurfGW – then maybe those cops should stop enforcing unConstitutional and anti-Liberty statutes on their neighbors. “Serve and protect”, say it slowly…
“How to Prepare For A Red Flag Confiscation Order at your House”. This article should be re-titled. It should say what the author really means to say. That is, “how to properly bend over and give up your Second Amendment rights because someone else did not want you to have them”. I grew up in what was then called the Soviet Union. I know damned good and well first-hand what it is like to be disarmed, defenseless, and living in fear-because only the criminals and government thugs were allowed to be armed. These people can go straight to hell with their “Red Flag Laws” (and ironic on them being called RED flags). Until a person realizes first hand, up-close, and very personal, and know just what it is like to suffer under such a regime of being helpless, idiot authors like the one above have absolutely no idea what they are giving up. For you sure as hell are not going to get your rights back once you so-willingly surrender them.
Spot on, Joe.
No, Joe, That is not what the article is about. It is about what to do BEFORE the cops show up. Once they are there it is too late to do anything but comply or die. The object of the piece is to tell you to make sure ALL your guns are not there to be found before the cops show up. Rest assured, if the cops show up for your guns, they will be taking whatever they can find if you decide to comply or not. They are not there to ask you for your guns. You don’t get to choose to keep any. They are there to take your guns, period. If they have to kill you to get them, that’s your choice. But either way, you will not have the guns, and that is a fact. If you have taken the advice and located some of your arms offsite so they can’t take them you will still have them after the cops go home to their wife and kids. And you can start picking up the mess they made instead of your wife mopping up your blood off the kitchen floor.
Thanks for this, Joe. Once freedom and liberty are gone, they are gone forever. The Soviet Union was a bureaucratic-socialist state and we are currently seeing similar models being promoted here in America.
We should make no mistake about this: the “free everything” utopianism we’re now hearing from The Left in this country is a lie—the same kind of lie that has been used time and again throughout modern history to disguise the totalitarianism that is inherent in all bureaucratic-socialist states. Our founders clearly understood that owning guns was a defense against tyranny. The 2nd Amendment, along with other rights, is more than a political statement. It’s a practical reality. This is why so many in government and on The Left argue so strenuously that individual gun-ownership is a threat to our social order. It isn’t, of course, but what it is—as was intended by our founders—is a very visible and very practical defense against the exact kind of governmental reach that leads to the kind of society from which you escaped. Personally, I think our only hope for preserving the kind of society that our founders intended lies with our Supreme Court.
Hello, Garrison. Yes, it is truly alarming to see what I grew up in, emerging in this country. It is akin to being in an out-of-control sports car that is getting ready to hit a brick-wall head on: You try to warn your passengers (fellow citizens) about the impending crash, only to be marginalized, or silenced for being told you do not know what you are talking about. It is truly sad to see “my world” coming to the United States. I only wish I had had a “Second Amendment”-as do many in so many other countries all over the world. Americans truly do not realize how good they have it. As for the U.S. Supreme Court, I wish I could share in your confidence. There have been far too many 5-4, close call rulings. John Roberts is no Constitutional-loving-judge, and I am not too sure on the two new Judges that President Trump just appointed. From what I understand, there are three branches of government, not one. So if the U.S. Supreme Court decides to rule against (unconstitutionally) the Second Amendment, what then?
Watching this avoidable train wreck and trying to warn others always reminds me of the Allegory of the Cave from Plato’s Republic.
I hate to say it, but this article shows the POTG, have already reached zugzwang with these red flag laws. Once hit with such a order, any possible move, even legal moves in court will worsen your position.
You all make me sad. “Comply”, “submit”, “work within the corrupt system and beg the very judge who infringed your privileges to reconsider, state that he was wrong, and allow you to exercise them again”.
And yes, I said ‘privilege’. Keeping and bearing arms without infringement has not been your right; ever. The 2nd Amendment died in 1934 when it was deemed “Constitutional” for the state to infringe your right in the interest of “public safety” even though you had committed no crime. Your grandfather didn’t fight. Your father didn’t fight. And now you’re declaring that you won’t fight. And with each generation it becomes less likely that you will ever reclaim your right.
Hear, hear!
Exactly…
I noted PA did not appear on the authors of list of states with red flag laws. Pennsylvania does not have an actual red flag law yet. But last year our Republican controlled legislature(Thanks guys. With friends like that who needs enemas, er enemies.) passed red flag style additions to our PFA laws so it now functions essentially as a red flag law.
2 of the things they changed were that previously you had days to remove your guns once served, now you have 24 hours, and previously you could store them with a friend or relative and now you can only surrender them to the cops (you might be able to give them to an attorney or gun dealer, but I may have that confused with something else).
If you are in PA and you get wind of this coming to you and you relocate them to a friends DO NOT tell the cops where they are. They will probably go get them and search both locations.
The time to act is befor, hidding guns ammo ect. Might I allso includ the names, adress, photes ect. of judges prosicutors leos and there family members.
This article triggered that classic unhinged crazy talk rant regularly posted in this forum a few years back by the Nutty Buckeye before he abruptly ceased posting (went away?) at TTAG for a few years. So John, where did you go during the hiatus? Did it have anything to do with those incessant unhinged rants you so loved to post at TTAG a few years back that threatened and advocated armed attacks and insurrection against the U.S. Government? When did you get out? Interesting to learn the NRA has landed on the Nutty Buckeye’s hate list. Too funny!
Anyone else have to look up “zugzwang”?
All those words in the article above summed up with just two:
COMPLY OR DIE.
But at least we will never be a socialist country.
Call before you dig .
Lololol you win ha ha
It is pure evil for our so called representatives in congress to pass laws that are unconstitutional and that deprive innocent Americans from defending our lives. Since when was it decided that we are guilty until proven innocent? Any politician who signs on to these evil bills are not worthy of one vote and frankly this borders on treason. We the people will not forget who helped pass these laws. Rubio is now sponsoring the reciprocal act but i stated to him why did you not do this when the republicans controlled all of congress? No he does it now for he knows the democratic controlled house will kill the bill. This is a famous RINO tactic to try and make them look like they stand up for our 2nd amendment and don’t let them fool you. I also have not forgot senator Scott who signed the red flag bill into law just before winning his senate seat.
okay,for all of you accusing people of not standing up to the cops.has it ever occurred to you that the reason people don’t jump on here and start beating their chests about what they would do if the cops showed up to their front door trying to take their guns is the fact that this posting could be shown to the cops and used to prove their case about how dangerous they are? so.the ones who are chest beating on here.if you live in those states,you are putting yourself in the spotlight to have your guns confiscated.what do i recommend?well, just my humble opinion,but i would move from that state.and find a gun owner friendly state to live in.and take your tax money with you.since that is all that those politicians understand.
Crimson Pirate, many cops are former military and their experience in early OIF/OEF was that any person with a visible weapon (AKA open carrier) is a legitimate target. Don’t run around with an AR slung unless you want to be targeted.
Here is a group of vigilantes who detained migrants at the border. The militia vigilante group is lucky they did not get shot by police because the first thing law enforcement would see is a group of people in camouflage holding hostages at gunpoint.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-mexico-right-wing-militia-detains-migrants-at-gunpoint-until-border-patrol-arrives
Gee whiz , just exactly like the TV show aired only weeks ago where the racist white guys with guns detain a person of color. 100 % scripted to make POTG look as bad and crazy as possible to moronic viewers.
Could those border ‘ vigilantes ‘be shills , AKA fake actors ?
The group CALLED the Border Patrol and told them where they were and what was happening…. That’s a good indicator….
This advise won’t work for Californians, as it is illegal to loan your guns or keep your legal fire arms at someone else’s house or even a storage facility in Calif, you will be arrested for that alone, you can’t bury them or lose them in a boating accident either, you MUST have the guns in your house that you purchased and are on the books in California, they have you completely tied up in CA. If you say your guns were stolen or lost, then you also be arrested for not reporting the theft within 48 hours or so.
If the DOJ computer shows that you purchased 5 guns in the past 25 years, you better have all 5 of those guns in your house in a safe. If not they will tear your house up real good, and you will still be in trouble if all 5 guns are not in your house, more charges and jail time.
You may be able to get around this if you actually have your guns stored in a storage facility out of state, and you can prove it, but i’m not sure about that. In Kommifornia, they have by the B****
Man that sucks, textbook zugzwang, which I have been overusing in this topic but it fits.
Why do you live in California? Move away, deprive them of your tax money, and let the state fail.
Thank you for reminding me of why, despite the endless homesickness I suffer, I was smart to get out of there 13 years ago! It has apparently gotten so much worse than I could’ve imagined. But now Colorado has (supposedly) elected the worst of the worst liberal governors and in his first 100 days, he has already destroyed most of what I liked about this state. I don’t know where else is left to flee to, before I have to stand and fight, alone if necessary.
Oklahoma and Baja Oklahoma are both still pretty sane politically, but you’ll notice the vistas are less stunning.
See, the registration is working as intended.
Just say they were stolen the night before. You accidentally left your safe unlocked and the door unlocked; they were gone in the morning; no need for forced entry. Last I checked, it is innocent until proven guilty. They might not believe that, but they can’t prove it is not truth.
“Sorry guys, the house was unlocked last night and after cleaning my guns, I forgot to lock the safe. They must have been stolen in the night; which means I still have a few hours to file the report. Aww shucks!”
I have always felt the best thing for people in red flag states is to hide most of their guns and ammo off their property in a location they feel is trustworthy and secure. Keep a couple of their least favorite guns around with just a bit of ammo for them.
If they get red flagged, the cops will be fooled into thinking they have disarmed you. You can even tell the “truth”, “yes officer, you have taken all the guns and ammo I have here.” The second they drive off, you can drive to get another gun and some ammo from your hidden stash for your continued home self defense. Suckers
LEOs should know they are committing a FELONY (18 USC 242: Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law). LEOs could face 10 years in prison for enforcing an unconstitutional order or even a constitutional one that deprives someone of their Constitutionally protected rights. The judge’s order does not protect them, just as former Lt. Calley was not protected, and the soldiers under his command not protected. That you were “just following orders” is not a legitimate defense. The Maryland officers that murdered Gary Willis should be hung as they murdered him during the commission of a felony.
Despite your claims of legal expertise, the Supreme Court has not ruled on GVROs providing no basis for charge against police for enforcing unconstitutional laws.
IF there is a ruling declaring red flag laws as unconstitutional, cops can be prosecuted only after the ruling.
Lastly, no prosecutor of either party will bring charges against cops enforcing red flag laws because BOTH Dems and Republicans back GVROs and the laws poll well.
“Fortunately for the friend, he’d sensed the crazy brewing and had already taken his guns over to his sister’s house.”
Did the police accept that no guns were there or did they tear his home apart in the search just in case?
Also if gun rights are a civil right (as far as I know they are) then a request for a red flag confiscation under false pretext should be a civil rights violation and result in a lawsuit against those responsible with a sizable financial payout. Has this been considered?
Thing is, such payouts are not from their pockets, they are from tax payer pockets which none of them care about.
Red Flag laws are a anathema to the Constitution.
Illegals laws that violate the Constitution cannot be legally enforced if law enforcement are truly Americans who took a oath.
While 1 person cannot and should not fight a swat team… we ALL as a community… IF WE COULD FING EVER BRING ALL GUN OWNERS TOGETHER..YES THE FUDDS TOO… TO FIGHT THIS WITH 1 FIST we COULD WIN AND PUSH BACK AGAINST THESE ILLEGAL LAWS!
Talk to your Sheriff and ask him will he enforce a unlawful Unconstitutional law…and will he stand with u and citizens against tyranny!
We see that many Sheriffs have stood up! Sheriffs are ELECTED OFFICIALS AND THE LAW OF THE LAND IN YOUR COUNTY IN MOST AREAS.
Fighting gun control starts on the local level with ur town,county,state……let u county commissioners know what u want them to do concerning gun rights!
I recently moved to WA state, and if my daughter didn’t live here I would have turned around and moved right back out. First 1639 passed then the state said that my CarryGuard Insurance isn’t valid in the state. So I am aware of my precarious position as a gun owner here. Thankfully the one ex I have has his own issues and we don’t communicate-but I wouldn’t put it past him to do something stupid to be stupid.
Time for some ‘lawmakers’ to have a red flag complaint made on them. Oh, this gun on your property belongs to your ‘bodyguard’? Not anymore. Hello Your Honor, we have a red flag order for your house.
Maybe it’s time to cut the strings to move to a state that does not have a red flag law. Circle the wagons.
And what state would that be? Any state that doesn’t currently have or is considering such legislation will get it forced on them from the federal level…
Come and take them.
Mods on here are 100% tyrants. They will remove comments the same way they will hand over their guns. Cowards.
How could they take the weapons if they don’t belong to you but a trust? Now the weapons are being stripped from everyone in the trust. How can that be legal?
gulag.jpg“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?
Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” — Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn Quotes (Author of One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich)
Now imagine if – instead of cowering in fear as each neighbors house is invaded and ransacked by oath-breaking order-followers, patriots banded together and stepped out in defense of their neighbors.
imagine if – cops had to fear counter-ambushes. They go out one night to serve a ERPO confiscation, and a week later three armed patriots invaded their home in the dead of night. How many would be willing to risk the threat of death by a red flagged target only to then be targeted themselves?
While it may be true that the recipient of the red flag order will likely die if he resists, its possible he may take one or two criminal cops with him. And then knowing that more will die to counter-ambush, maybe they’ll start rethinking their career choice and willingness to follow the unConstitutional orders of power-hungry tyrants with no skin in the game, living in their high towers with SWAT team’s for protection.
David, I do believe that you are speaking words of truth. Is it possible that even with neighbours banding together, that disastrous results could occur? Absolutely, but look at the Founding Forefathers, who-against impossible odds-fought for what is now known as the United States of America. One of the few countries in the world, I might add, where citizens are armed. What would have happened, if the Russian people had been armed against Lenin and Stalin? Maybe the people would not have endured some 80 years of Communist misery. Is this what Americans want for their children? Just “give them up quietly (your guns)”, and pray some left wing liberal judge “lets” you have your guns back? I surmise that-sadly-some Americans may have to endure real, unimaginable pain before they get out of their chairs, and fight. I have lived first-hand what being disarmed is like, and I refuse to live like that, especially being now, in a country, where I can enjoy being armed, where I can defend myself, and not live in fear any more. I will be more than willing to band with other brothers (and sisters) of like mind, out-manned or out gunned, because if one is not willing to fight for such rights, and defend them, you will lose them to crooked politicians who all-too willing to enslave you because you let them.
Instead of what if, boosting, talking about hiding it’s time to get political and get Conservative 2nd Amendment backers who will get rid of these Red Flag laws and any other laws about gun control. Your best and greatest fight is at the ballot box.
At what point do you say ” enough! ” ? The solution to this problem won’t come from voting and talking. Some people only understand violence.
“Another thing not to do: refuse to allow cops entry into your home if they show up on the doorstep with that court order. They have the right to enter and the will do it. If you resist, they will use force. Up to and including deadly force. You won’t get your guns back if you’re dead.”
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? […] The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!”
I wonder who has the right idea — Boch, or Solzhenitsyn?
Stop cowering in fear, be proactive and gather support in and upon the preservation of Liberty & Freedom. Waiting around on someone else won’t cut it. Do something dammit NOW.
Call, write, cuss, bitch, harass the hell out of our politicians (local, state, federal) until they get on board. Demand the protection of our Rights, so that “we the people” won’t have the jackboot of tyrants on our necks. Organize, rally, march, whatever it takes. Quit being pansies and grow some damn nuts. Liberty or death.
As a 30 year Lawman. If any officer comes to your door with a red flag crap. It is your duty as an American to shoot them.
Rubbish. It is your duty to fight this in court and legally end it
Apparently, Kevin, you have never lived in a country where you are unarmed, defenseless, and living in fear, seeing is how you are so willing to give your guns up, and place faith (to get said arms back) in the very system that took them from you in the first place.
More rubbish. I know enough to pick fights I can win
And apparently, you have chosen to bend over and give up. But if that your version of “winning”, you can keep it.
I’d be surprised if “bend over” or “surrender” are in Jamison’s vocabulary.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article5140158.html
Now EXTREME Rubbish. I never once said that I would give up. I said I would fight where I could win. Once the courts get tired of constitutional litigation over these laws we can get them stricken down. As long as that is an option I have no intention of dying on my doorstep. Perhaps you did not consider that the police have guns too and will come in a group? I have gone to court and I have recovered guns for clients. Sometimes I have gotten them money as well. These sanguinary threats, safe behind your computers, do not help. The usual suspects will use them as proof of how dangerous we are and how severely we must be regulated. I suspect that many of these so-called patriots are trolls from the opposition trying to paint us as idiots. We have made great progress in litigation and in getting laws passed. Why give it up for gunfights?
How to prepare for these? Easy- keep guns loaded and shoot first. You won’t be popular in the near future, but history will remember you as a patriot.
So Mr. Jamison, when will you be moving to New York or California with your handguns and select-fire rifles on full display and winning your court case to strike down the NFA and unSAFE act? Your posts sound like more faceless, internet bluster; probably from a Grabboid who just wants to paint all patriots as weak-willed cowards on behalf of the police state.
You will not be remembered at all. Police reports, the media, the person who filed the red flag order will all say that you were a nut job who got what was coming to him. If you live and fight this in court, where you could win, then you could help destroy these law. Then you will be remembered as a patriot. ofirst tells the system they have to more severe with the victims of such orders
I tried to stay relatively anonymous until the Libertarian Party nominated me for Governor of NY in 1998.
At that point, I felt I had no anonymity left.
But I still avoid making statements that could be construed as threats.
great ideas if the guns aren’t registered. if they are, though, the police could look up the registrations and ask you where they are.
if you don’t tell them the truth, they’ll haul your ass to jail for supplying false information.
So I guess the Men of Concord and Lexington should’ve just let the British (police force) troops take the guns at Concord and fought them in court LATER? BUT trying today to get others to backup and support you is a moot point, most people are all talk no action, AND with the right cash motivation would RAT YOU OUT!
REMEMBER only about 3% of the Colonist supported REBELLION, THE OTHERS JOINED IN WHEN THEY SAW SOME HEADWAY!
Lexington and Concord was not the King’s first gun grab. There was no way to fight the King in those days. Much different situation. Fight smart, fight effectively, pick your fights. Lying in a puddle of blood on your porch is a lost battle. You may think yourself a martyr but this will not happen in front of an audience. The press will report you are a dangerous lunatic. Challenging the police to a shootout does make a lunatic. You do not get to be a martyr.
Forget the PVC stuff! I knew a man who buried one and later went back for it and when he opened it the gun was worthless! Absolutely rusted beyond use for anything! He even had it coated with grease and sealed tight!
Always have an off-site available. Safe deposit boxes are good places to store a pistol. We have reached an era of radio silence concerning firearms with co-workers and relatives.
Nope, second place they will look, along with storage lockers.
Interesting article. I am sure that it has conjured up horror stories. Some may be true and others far fetched. Even the old Tom Selleck movie of a person who fell victim due to corrupt cops going to the wrong address.
I have read about one story about a man who was shot to death by police answering a call to a store on Ohio. It turns out the man was looking at a rifle he was planning to purchase. It seems that for some reason a false 911 call was made. The police accidentally shot the person dead.
In the article you talk about the possibility that a false story could be made to get even or just because someone has an ax to grind. The police come to your home with a court order. A search produces no firearms and it is later discovered that the person never owned any. In court it also comes out that the whole thing was based on a false accusation. What recourse would the victim have? Could he/she file charges against the false accuser?
I forget which country it was, but at one time I read that there was a big black market on used guns, many which were old and not functioning because the Nazis were going door to door and if you said you had no guns they would ransack your home looking because they did not believe you. So, letting them in and telling them where the sacrifice gun was kept, saved a lot of hassle and destruction. Get or choose an inexpensive gun to donate when they show up. If they are at the door, it is too late to make any move other than compliance – you are under siege, probably surrounded by SWAT. Nowadays they don’t wait you out. Tear gas, a flash grenade and they enter from all directions at once. With all the gas and smoke, some one will panic screaming gun and you will contract high velocity lead poisoning. 2: PVC pipe? If they are serious about searching, they will come equipped with metal detectors. Location is key. Perhaps under something metal that is normally there. Next door? Down the road? Think. 3: Your sacrifice gun should be functional for defense against home invasion. Surrendering it is for the purpose of letting you walk away, collect a stash gun and join the French resistance. No one (including a questionable spouse, he/she may crack under questioning) should know how many or what guns you have in these strange times. Best to tell your friends and neighbors months in advance that you have sold most of them and buy a fishing pole.
You just ask your lawyer be present and that you have called them .
You have that Right ,to legal representation in ALL dealings with police .
Ignorance of the law is their wet dream ;).
Comply, cooperate and assist the police and then get a lawyer is the advice given here for a red flag confiscation, or court order targeting a specific person. What about the other type of confiscation, such as democrats assuming power in a state, such as Virginia, and making unconstitutional laws banning most or all firearms? There is no legal recourse, other than the constitutionality of the law. I would like to know the advice for that.
I have always felt the best thing for people in red flag states is to hide most of their guns and ammo off their property in a location they feel is trustworthy and secure. Keep a couple of their least favorite guns around with just a bit of ammo for them.
If they get red flagged, the cops will be fooled into thinking they have disarmed you. You can even tell the “truth”, “yes officer, you have taken all the guns and ammo I have here.” The second they drive off, you can drive to get another gun and some ammo from your hidden stash for your continued home self defense. Suckers.
And for places with registration, just say they were stolen hours before they showed up and you still are with in the 24 to 48 hour report filing period. Silly you left the safe unlocked after cleaning them and the door to the house open when you went to bed; no forced entry needed for the thieves. The cops can’t prove or disprove that. Womp Womp.
I recommend getting a good digital camera and when you can, as soon as possible, take GOOD, quality photos, that clearly show the gun, the caliber and the serial number and put them on TWO thumb drives. That way you have a back up, you will also have proof if your guns are damaged and more importantly, if there are any light fingers at the local PD. Sadly to say, even as a retired LEO, I have seen such a thing occur.
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