Springfield snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with their XDS-9. The Croatian company’s compact 9mm striker-fired handgun was the GLOCK everybody wants but Gaston’s mob don’t make. (Yet?) The XDS-9 sold like ballistic hotcakes—until Springfield recalled it. According to Springfield’s website, “One of our customers reported that his XD-S™ had fired multiple shots unexpectedly and returned this pistol to us for our inspection. Our gunsmith recreated this situation in a test pistol by modifying the components of that pistol and was able to recreate the customer’s claim. Through extensive evaluation and testing of this pistol, we developed an improved engagement among critical components of the pistol to prevent the remote possibility of this unintentional discharge.” Huh. That’s not exactly what MAC has to say on the matter. Anyway, not to coin a phrase, the fix is in and . . .
Mac’s mate is not impressed. The trigger on the fixed XDS-9 has gained pull weight and added grittiness. While “breaking the gun in” reduces that weight and smoothes-out the trigger, I reckon that’s not good enough. How many owners are going to dry fire their guns a few thousands times to “fix” their XD-S trigger? Not many. And that’s a shame.
A handgun’s trigger is one of the if not the most important variable for accurate fire. (Just ask the New York City Police Department whose members shoot GLOCKs with a 13-pound trigger pull to attain a 17 percent hit ratio.) Ideally, a handgun’s trigger should be near-as-dammit perfect straight out of the box. In the real world, not so much. Ruger, for example, sent us a SR40 with an abominable trigger. A recently purchased GLOCK 19’s trigger was, well, let’s just say a Ghost Rocket Trigger kit transformed the gun.
So you pays your money you takes your chances, trigger-wise [NB: To avoid variations between examples, ask and then dry fire the gun you’re going to buy before you buy it.] Or drop in an aftermarket fix. And there are plenty of people who agree with Joe: “It functions just fine and that’s all that’s important.” Be that as it isn’t, you certainly don’t expect a company to recall your gun then send it back months later with a trigger that’s worse than the one you bought. Even if it is “safer.”
More than that, if the XDS-9’s trigger problem only affected the gun’s function when gripped incorrectly, it proves the old (new?) adage: if you build a smarter gun mother nature will build a stupider shooter. That is all.
Or, they could just buy a M&P Shield which has a pretty good trigger, especially compared to the stock M&P.
Too bad, XDS owners…
Did no one buying an XD ever notice the whole “made in Croatia” stamp emblazoned on gun? Did they not see the potential for quality control issues with that alone?
The only guns I will buy from non-first world, or non-western nations are AK’s, Markorovs and Tokarevs. An XD has never and will never find its way into my safe.
Your loss.
I have shot them all. XD, XDM and XDS. Did they all go bang when I wanted them too? Yes. Did they shoot at my point of aim? Yes. Did I have any malfunctions? No. Do I think they are an ok Gun? Sure.
But they are just a fancy looking Glock. Why by a Glock look alike when I can have the real deal?
Call me a hater, but I like what I like.
If a Glock shoots or handles better for you thats one thing.
Dismissing the XD series simply because its Croatian made is silly. The whole series has a reputation for phenomenal reliability and high quality construction.
No plastic guide rods either.
I mean after all, Glocks are just fancy looking VP70s right?
An XDs isn’t a fancy glock. Unless Glock started making 9mm single stack pistols while I wasn’t paying attention.
If by “Glock look alike”, you mean better ergonomics and some additional features, yeah. Glock and XD/XDm/XDs are no more similar than the fact that they are both polymer striker-fired guns. The similarity ends there.
I have an XD gathering dust in my safe. Aside from the backstrap safety, the XD doesn’t do anything better than my Glocks. The grip is quite comfortable, very ergonomic. It is more comfortable to grip with my shooting hand than my Glocks, but less so than an M&P. However, the takedown lever ruins it when you add the support hand (for me. Glocks on the 9/40/357 frames have a wonderful little shelf that makes an ideal resting point for your support hand thumb. On the 10/45 frame the shelf is less pronounced and more difficult for me to keep my support hand glued to the frame during recoil ). The take down lever makes it more difficult for me to grip with a strong thumbs forward grip as it hangs out exactly where my support hand thumb wants to go and the shape of the lever makes it awkward to counter torque the frame to prevent muzzle rise during firing / dropping shots due to less than ideal trigger presses. It’s higher bore axis makes it more difficult to keep on target. The trigger has a great smooth/light take up and a pretty clean break (cleaner than my Glocks)… and that’s where the pleasant experience ends. The reset is longer, but more importantly, there is take up AFTER reset which makes rapid follow ups less accurate. I have no experience firing an XDm so I can’t speak to how many (if any) of my grievances they addressed.
My XD has been utterly reliable, however. Before I “retired” it from sport shooting, it made it about 1400 rounds without a malfunction that was not related to bad ammo (one FTF from a bad primer). I would not fault the XD for it’s country of manufacture so much as it’s design. If I could look past the take down lever issue I would even consider swapping the trigger for a PRP. I will also say that the XD platform does not hold it’s value quite like the Glocks do on my local firearms forum.
With respect to the XDs, if I wasn’t happy with my Shield the XDs would be a strong contender for me.
Because grip safety…..
youre ignorant one more than one level. saying that a single-action pistol is the same as a glock shows a lack of even very basic understanding of internal workings of firearms, but dwarfed by your ranting about “first world” and croatia.
here is a report from the real world. most new american guns are rebadged and refurbed designs of the past. not saying that american engineers are not good for more but the quarter capitalists running the show would never sink the money into actual new development. these guns are then assembled from shoddy parts made in sweatshops around the world – again, to satisfy the never ending need for short term gains, and at the expense of long term advancement of the company and the country as a whole.
so how come the springfield engineers were allowed to innovate a truly new gun? well they were’nt. a croatian weapons manufacturer designed it, and springfield later bought it. at least the crony capitalists got that one right. because this designed-and-made-in croatia firearm is second to none of the first tier western european manufacturers. as for the sad, miserable “american” guns of today – it runs circles around them.
america is over and done for as a first tier manufacturer of consumer products. for the time being we’re holding our own in industrial equipment, but that is coming to an end rapidly. then all that remains will be science and research, but without the industrial base that will eventually perish as well. think about that while you haul your kids around to football trainings or some other worthless non-productive activity. think about it when your kids spends his night watching tv and playing computer games rather than doing that boring physics homework. the rest of the world has figured out what america once learned but has since forgotten: hard work and dicipline is what makes a nation great, not slogans and past victories.
Would you buy a Serbian-made Zastava AK? Maybe a Yugoslavian Tokarev?
The designer behind the XD was a Yugoslavian firearms designer, and is responsible for several Yugoslav designs produced by Zastava.
Both Croatia and Serbia produce quality, underrated firearms.
As other said, your loss.
FWIW I don’t own an XD, but would buy one with confidence despite this issue.
The issue here is not with the XD or the XDm, which have a proven record in the US for more than a decade (and were in service in Europe as the HS2000 for a decade before that), but with the XDs, which is a new variation of the design.
Show me a manufacturer that has never had a problem with any of its guns (let alone a newly designed one), and I’ll show you a company that lives entirely in your imagination.
I own an XD and an XDm, and I know other people who do, and they’re great guns. If anything they’re even more durable and reliable than Glocks — and they have better ergonomics, too. Glock has had its share of problems (I seem to recall hearing something about the Gen 4 rollout), and I hate the way their guns feel in the hand, but I don’t go around telling Glock owners they’re wrong for buying one.
To each his own. Tomato, tomahto…and either way, the lead still flies downrange when we squeeze the trigger.
Before Springfield paid to license the rights to sell the HS2000 (what the XD used to be called) in the US, they only cost about $300 new.
In response to FortWorthColtGuy, you really aren’t that bright are you. The XD has a track record of reliability, durability, high quality, safety and precision. The reason behind that is the dedication to high levels of quality control where the handgun is made in Croatia (Europe) and then quality rechecked in the USA. If you don’t own and XD you are missing out.
I own Springfield XD’s, and Glocks. I love them both. I also love the 1911’s,but I don’t see myself being able in this life time to buy my true love an Ed Brown Bobtail 1911.They both are great shooters.
Have a 9mm and 45cal and both came back with crappy triggers, that were much better than the M&P shield. will get them fixed but they are not good right now.
Once a bubba gun, always a bubba gun.
My XDs has become my favorite pistol! After about a 1000 rounds the trigger was very smooth…then the recall. When it came back the trigger really sucked! But HEY! In for a dime in for a dollar….shot a couple hundred more rounds and it’s now as smooth a silk…..I did just get a spring kit from Powder River and I’ll try that as soon as the gun comes back from a Cerakote encounter….LOL!
BTW, while it was out I took my G21 to the range…..Getting close to 10,000 rounds without touching the internal components…it went full auto….Yep! Had to buy a target holder….
So, if you complain about the XDs trigger…..well, I’m nice….but where you can stick your unlearned opinion is where the sun ain’t shin’in….;)
If you want a gun with a quality trigger get a 1911 or a Browning Hi Power. I have XDs in 9 and 45, and despite the bias of a small minority, they are quality products but their triggers are inferior to JMB’s designs. The trigger should feel right out of the box. The fact that most plastic wunderguns don’t says a lot about their real quality.
I agree and love my customized Officers Model but the mechanism has only one commonality….pull the trigger and it goes BOOM!
BTW, I Frog Lube every thing!…Amazing stuff!…OK….there are some preverts here…ALMOST everything….
I had an instructor that ate frog lube in front of the class, to show how safe it is.
XF7 works much better than FrogLube.
While I can agree with you about the 1911, I have to say that the Hi Power has one of the worst out of the box triggers I have encountered. I now have four of them, and had two others in the past. IF you get a trigger job and pin the magazine disconnect, the Hi Power has a wonderful trigger. Out of the box, it is gritty and rough, in my experience. That being said, two of mine are still original (1964, still in original box, and 1947 Inglis from a Chinese contract). The Belgian from Nazi service had the disconnect pinned before I got it, and the Mark III I had modified for use as a carry gun. My 1911s are great shooters with no work required. I do agree with you that JMB REALLY knew what he was doing. Just my two cents, not trying to make waves.
Agreed about the factory Hi Power trigger. In my experience, not an expert, few people buy p35s or 1911s and leave them factory stock. I always felt that the p35 and cz75 fit my hands best of all the semi’s I;ve used. And I don’t own either.
I have a Series III and I find the trigger to be almost as smooth as a 1911 It is just slight longer.. It also has the most benign recoil of any 9mm that I ever shot. I know a lot of people don’t like the Beretta trigger and I do hate the first double action pull, but I find the M-9 single action mode to be a good trigger as well.
I work at a range and shot one of these just the other day. I always thought the xdm was the red-headed stepchild of the polymer gun crowd…until I actually shot one and saw how great the trigger was for a stock gun. I had high hopes for the xds and saw many of the same flaws as the author. Bummer.
Rob, I’d love to see you guys rank guns in this price level by trigger quality. We’d love to know your opinions since some of us are biased and you guys get a chance to shoot a lot more than we do.
In general, more lists would be great. Best value, best trigger, accuracy, etc etc.
Striker fired:
Best Trigger: XD/XD(M)
2nd Best: M&P
Worst: Glock.
Each of these can be massively improved with aftermarket components.
In the same price range is the CZ-75B which beats all of them for a factory trigger.
I guess my shooting style is different than yours. I would say…
1. Glock
2. XD
3. M&P
The Glocks are all consistent. I can pick up any Glock and it is like shooting my own. I love the tactile reset and the consistent pull weight and feel.
XDs are like the Glock, but I find can be more inconsistent. Some are really good, some break at odd places or times.
M&Ps have a long reset (If you can even feel it) and a general spongy feel to all of them. I am never sure when and where it will break even after 100’s of rounds.
PPQ has a nicer trigger than any of them for about the same outlay…
You would like xds then the problem with xds is they actually tried to copy the glock trigger on the xds.
The Glock has a feel all it’s own. It is unlike any other firearm IMHO. Once you know how to use it the length and weight of pull are secondary. I could say that about most modern firearms. Accuracy and reliability are foremost in what I have. Few firearms have a truly lousy trigger.
Trigger quality from a sample of one? Maybe two? Not super representative of statistical validity, never mind the subjective implications with such a test…
How about Kahr triggers provided they aren’t the infamous NYPD trigger? I handled a Kahr CW9, a Shield and a Beretta Nano at my local Cabela’s store. The Kahr was very smooth although long. The Shield was shorter with a definite break. I could live with either but the Kahr fit my hand better. If given a Nano, I would use it as a trade one of the others.
Am I the only person who dry fires a gun before buying it? They do make snap caps, after all, and most dealers are ok with a few dry fires on an empty chamber.
Hadn’t shot a TON pre-“upgrade”, and have only had a couple range trips post recall, but after the 9 week break not having it, I could not notice a significant difference either way. I sure don’t think it “sucks” as far as strikers go.
But then again… the only triggers I’ve ever really felt like I absolutely could not get the hang of was an LC9 and the couple M&Ps I’ve tried. So maybe me and triggers just get along.
I’m from Massachusetts where all DA triggers suck all the time and we can’t buy XDs because they aren’t on the “Approved Firearms Roster.” Glocks are on the roster but new ones can’t be purchased from a dealer because Glock was smart enough to tell the MA AG to go fvck himself/herself.
Fortunately, there are some good gunsmiths here and even I can install an Apex kit.
All cheez-whiz pistols have triggers that are poor to really, really poor.
Want to feel a good trigger? Pick up a S&W revolver or Colt Python, cock it into single-action mode, and pull the trigger. That’s a good trigger, usually less than 3lbs.
Or check out a S&W Model 52 or 41 target semi-autos when they’ve had their triggers adjusted down to about 2lbs. Those are nice triggers on target guns, and at 4lbs are nice triggers.
There is no cheez-whiz pistol, even with a drop-in kit, that comes close to a really good trigger.
I’m sorry DG, but talking up the triggers of guns I’ve never even seen in real life (admittedly, not the most stringent of standards) and don’t really fit the usage of the guns being described (SD, carry, HD, whatever) seems a bit of a non sequitur. The term “good trigger” is being used in the context of guns that would commonly be carried or, in the case of the Python, found outside of an auction house. Hell, given the usual thoughts about trigger weights on carry guns, wouldn’t having trigger weights in the 2-3lbs range make them “bad triggers” for their intended purpose?
If they were on guns with as little safety designed into them as the Glock has, yes, they’d be dubious triggers.
The S&W (or Colt Python) single-action triggers require that you pull the hammer back to have that trigger. This is not exactly rocket science, and it is a design that goes back over 100 years. As a result of the 100 year old issue and the requirement to be made of something resembling metal, SA/DA revolvers are seen by gun noobs today as being passé, because revolvers aren’t the new-new hotness in black tacti-kewl plastic festooned with wanker rails.
Despite the recent shortcomings invented by gun marketeers, the DA revolver works and works well as a carry gun. With a DA revolver, you can safely have a match-grade trigger on a carry gun, with safety. And when you need a “right now” trigger, you had the double-action trigger, at about 12 lbs. But today, and especially here on TTAG, revolvers are so… last century. Why? Because… because… because… My God, DG, you must be dense! Don’t you know you’re going to need a bazillion rounds more than five or six to take down the shambolic masses of zombies at your door whenever…
Oh, screw it. I just don’t have the time or the wit today to bother deriding this obsession with packing around 50 rounds of ammo in magazines when the stats clearly tell us that the vast, vast, vast majority of DGU’s are over in two rounds (or less) and at under 10 yards. Statistical truth: A five-round S&W snubby in .357 with a bobbed hammer would give you everything you’re likely to need, unless you make a habit of poking your nose into places where common sense tells you you shouldn’t be.
The S&W 41 is a .22 target pistol, and you wouldn’t likely carry it. The 52 is a target .38 Special semi-auto, and you’d probably not carry it either. The intended use for both these guns is to put rounds into a 3″ round black target bull at 50 feet, or larger bulls out to 50 yards. These are among some of the best handgun triggers out there, and for shooting one-handed, off-hand, at rates of up to five rounds in 10 seconds (the rapid fire stage), you’d like a really good trigger.
Anyone calling a trigger on a polymer carry gun a “good trigger” obviously hasn’t seen or felt an actual good trigger. And that’s lots of AR and Glock fanbois, for whom the entire universe of firearms is a) black and b) plastic. I get another laugh out of claims that factory AR’s with mil-spec single stage triggers are “nice triggers.”
What do I carry? A Glock in .45 ACP. Why? Because of police corruption. If I’m ever in a spot where I’m going to surrender my CCW gun, I fully expect kleptocrats with badges to “lose” it, and the chances that it gets “lost” go up dramatically if it is a nice gun – like a S&W. If they “lose” my Glock, I won’t shed a single tear, as it never was, and never was going to ever be, a “nice gun.” I’ll go down to my LGS, plop down six portraits of that randy geriatric lothario, Benny Franklin, and get another one just as ugly and functional. The cost of $600 would not bother me nearly as much as losing the time investment in a Nice Gun over which I have worked and twiddled to make as nice as I can.
Still, I dislike carrying a Glock, and one day, when the right S&W (rather roughed up, but still functional and in the right caliber) crosses my path, I’ll go back to packing a S&W.
Food for thought. Thank you.
Jesus christ. Its a tiny gun that is ment to be fired in a life or death situation. When you’re laying on your back shooting at someone on top you, as long as it goes bang is all that matters. There are far too many morons on here who think EVERY gun NEEDS to have some 3lb super match trigger.
Exactly. So don’t even bother with the accessory game.
The Glocks (and clones/knockoffs/imitations) are a disposable handgun. People ought get used to that fact. It will never be collectable, it will never be a match grade gun, it will never be a nice gun.
Cheez-whiz pistols are a piece of crap, but like the AK, they are usually a dependable piece of crap, and in turds-hit-turbines situations, that has a rather reassuring quality.
Is “cheez-whiz” an actual adjective I don’t know about, or did you just coin a phrase and forget to invent a definition for it?
Look, despite my strong hate/hate relationship with obnoxious, overbearing Glocksucker fanboys, I certainly don’t consider my Glock a piece of crap. The trigger pull is just fine and the ergonomics aren’t a problem for my monstrous hands; it’s just a wee bit too thick and heavy to use as my concealed carry gun of choice. If I open carried, I’d have no problem toting it around.
As for the Military Arms Channel: way to go, guys, but I had no problem with the trigger on my .45ACP version before I sent it out and I have no problem with it now that I have it back; it breaks and resets the same now as it did then. If I negotiate the trigger-pull just fine in spite of what you say, does that mean I’m f*cking up somehow?
With my XDS, I can maintain a 4-inch grouping within 10 yards as it is, and I’d be a fool to demand any more from a compact, short-barreled pistol whose purpose is to keep me from becoming a crime statistic. If you fellas at MAC ever see me bringing my XDS to try qualifying at a marksmanship tourney, by all means, feel free to share your expertise with me. ‘Til then, blow it out your bean bag.
Same for me. Both my 9 and .45 returned with fine triggers. At least as good as when I sent them in. If I was unaware of this supposed issue, I would swear they are more crisp after the upgrade. My only real beef with the recall was the length of time they had my guns: 4 months is unacceptable, particularly when it is a carry gun. The free mag was nice, but this debacle warranted much more. Do they not understand the whole carry gun concept? I am sure that thousands of XDs owners were, and still are, disarmed every day they leave their homes. Poo on Springfield for their handling of the matter.
“Cheez-whiz” refers back to the actual product by the same name. If you’d been around in the 60’s and 70’s, you’d know what I’m talking about. For some reason in the 1960’s, super-processed food-like crap-in-a-can/jar became fashionable… sorta the way that plastic pistols have suddenly become all the rage. Never mind that there was never anything wrong with actual, you know, cheese. Instead of just selling cheese, someone saw fit to develop a noxious cheese-like substance, squirt it in a jar and market the hell out of it. This became quite the fad. Some of the more stupid processed food marketing used the Apollo moon program – products like Tang. Why in the name of All Things That Do Not Suck would I want to drink Tang if my buttocks were still firmly planted on earth where I could get real orange juice instead of … whatever the heck is in Tang?
The organic food movement was born during the dark days of relentless marketing of these types of processed food-like substances to the American public.
Cheez-whiz, when you leave it out in the air long enough, eventually dries to something that feels surprisingly a lot like the polymers used in these plastic pistol frames. It just wasn’t black – the color was a cross between cheddar-yellow and alien piss.
When I saw polymer injection molding done a few years ago, I remarked to a fellow engineer, who was involved in the material science end of polymers, that when hot and under injection pressure, the polymers looked a lot like “black cheez-whiz” and his response was “Well, the consistency when we inject it is actually not too different.”
I’m quite familiar with the cheese-flavored spackle they used to sell, thank you, but that’s still an extremely belabored analogy to just start throwing out with no context.
Also, your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
I’ll “feel bad” when they play the Stanley Cup in Hell.
I don’t do “feelings.”
Ah yes, construction material elitists.
Im always reminded of people who still think cars stopped being “quality” when they all went to monocoque construction.
Poly guns do have some tradeoffs yes, but the pluses are there just like the minuses. “Nice” 1911s and revolvers are heavy, have horrible vulnerabilities to corrosion, and of course increased expense of maintenance and repair. Not to mention limitations of concealment and ammo capacity.
Poly guns are excellent tools for certain jobs; namely personal defense and work in hostile environs.
Yes the older more refined designs are prettier to look at feel better in many ways, but claiming the old stuff has more engineering art to it than the new stuff is for gun snobs who like to sit around looking at blued steel and touching themselves.
(1) A 1911 is not hard to conceal if you dress like an adult.
(2) By your criteria a big Glock is no more concealable than a 1911.
(3) The squared of edges of a modern polymer print more than the rounded edges of a 1911 or a M-9. Width is a bigger factor than length when it comes to concealment
(4) As far as I know the only handguns that have been widely used in a combat environment are traditional metal framed pistols like the M1911, Hi Power, Luger, Tokarev and Makarov. They stood up quite well. The M1911 is the world’s most combat proven handgun. I doubt a Glock or XD would stand up in the field for a deployment. Gis use their handguns for more than shooting. They make nice hammers.
Oh, I’m an elitist… but I supposed the guys who are pissing and moaning about the Zamak-3 in Hi-Point pistols have a valid beef?
Here’s where I’m an elitist: Value for the money. If you guys knew how little the poly pistols actually cost to make vs. what you’re paying for them… vs. what the value of those pistols will be in 10 years, and then you did your homework and looked at the same issues for a quality handgun made of steel and wood, you’d see things from my perspective: Actual best return for the gun buyer.
I’m starting to think I used up that “heads in the fridge” comment on the wrong lunatic.
What kind of nut cares about depreciation when choosing a carry weapon? I’m not diversifying my damned portfolio; I’m picking a weapon, that is to say, a tool, to defend my life in an immediately threatening situation. I don’t buy things so I can put them under glass and show them off. I buy them so I can use them day-to-day and not give a rat’s ass about the resale value.
The American gun buyer of only one generation ago used to, that’s who.
Then you were sold a bill of goods… and you bought it. Hook, line and sinker.
Return?
This is the same kind of silliness you hear from people who purchase cars or houses as “investments” yet apparently have no concept of what appreciation is vs. depreciation and what investments do out of those two choices.
Sure, the prettified stuff will always carry a high price among collectors. All 7 of them in your county.
Niche market goods make terrible investments, which is why EVERY major firearm manufacturer out there has at least a few poly products geared toward self defense. The market, and the attendant revenue, cannot be ignored.
Sure, 1950s era rat-rods carry heavy value in the right circles. They’re just tiny circles. Same way with “collectable, resellable” firearms. Maybe you’ll get your money back. Maybe. One day.
Tdiinva –
I like how you turn refutation of one point (concealability) into three bullet points to pad your list, whilst completely ignoring the rest of the points.
And yes, you’re right, a large Glock IS no more concealable than a 1911. I never claimed otherwise – all I did was point out that bigass bulky metal guns are harder to hide than other options.
So…thanks? For your insight on that one.
Did you read what you wrote? The rounded edges impact concealibiliy. (Point 2)
and what about this statement:”1911s and revolvers are heavy, have horrible vulnerabilities to corrosion, and of course increased expense of maintenance and repair.”
You are describing combat environments even if it’s not explicit.
“
I’m questioning whether english is your first language at this point.
“Did you read what you wrote? The rounded edges impact concealibiliy. (Point 2)”
All three of your “points” refer to concealability. Which was MY point in the reply – it’s not three points, it’s ONE. You split one item into three. And I never disagreed with you – full size poly guns are indeed hard to conceal just like guns in DG’s “nice” category. If it’s bigassed and metal, it’s tough to hide. If it’s bigass and poly it’s tough to hide. What exactly are you arguing here?
“and what about this statement:”1911s and revolvers are heavy, have horrible vulnerabilities to corrosion, and of course increased expense of maintenance and repair.”
You are describing combat environments even if it’s not explicit.”
How does the weight of a gun or the cost of repair and parts describe any environment whatsoever?
As for corrosion resistance, sure, that COULD play a role in a combat environment…or your trusty metal heater could rust to shit sitting in a cabinet in your garage. This is not to say metal portions of modern poly guns are impervious, but three things stand out:
– The frame certainly won’t rust.
– Most of the metal items are treated in some fashion if you’ve purchased a high quality poly firearm, and if they’re not…
-They’re less expensive to replace if they do rust.
I need to be clear here: I’m not saying revolvers or 1911s are bad. I’m saying every platform has pluses and minuses, and RESULTS matter more than warm fuzzies about whether the gun is poly or steel. Shoot what works well for you and you like. Just don’t hate on someone toting a poly duty gun because rosewood grips get you hard.
DG, I have no doubt you know what you’re talking about when it comes to guns, but “what the pistols will be worth in 10 years”…My guess is that it will be like all other pistols that are still in production in 10 years, darn near the cost of a new one. As long as they are still in production and their replacement costs continues to edge up, their value will continue to edge up. Used Glocks routinely sell for 100% of “good” prices of new Glocks. XD’s, on the other hand, maybe go for about 75%-80% of new as the demand is not quite the same. M&P’s are slightly better than XD’s on resale. On the same side of that coin, as long as Springfield Range Officers are continued to be produced in the current format you can expect the used ones to sell for close to new ones. Guns currently in production do not appreciate past the replacement cost, regardless of how high your opinion of them is. My dad routinely laments selling a Colt Python for $125 back in the late 60’s.
I don’t think that anyone is going to argue with you that metal frames are more “classic”, but you’d be a fool to not wake up and realize the 80’s and hell, even the 90’s have come and gone and this “CheeseWhiz” fad is likely here to stay. Is a Glock an item that is heirloom quality and you’ll present your grandson and he’ll marvel over how beautiful it is? Not likely, but it is something you could hand a granddaughter and say “here, take this and be careful”.
And as far as “how cheap they are to make vs. what you’re buying them for”, welcome to America, wake up and smell the capitalism. Selling goods and services for a mark up is the name of the game. If the perceived value is high enough, there is nothing wrong with making a profit.
J:
You are being obtuse. i was commenting on two things you said, concealibility and durability. My three bullets covered both. The reason I brought up the combat environment is that it is the harshest environment that a firearm lives in. If there are “horrible vulnerabilities to corrosion” then they will show up there and unless you are lugging around 70lbs of gear all the difference in weight between a polymer and metal framed pistol shouldn’t be an issue. If you can’t carry an extra lb then you have other physical issues.
If a 1911 can fire 5,000 FMJs without breaking or failing, and a Glock can do the same with defensive grade JHP’s, than the Glock is not a piece of crap. I also fail to see why a consistent 5.5 lb trigger pull is garbage. Yes, Smith single action trigger pulls are excellent, but that doesn’t relegate Glocks to garbage status. I’d say that you are free to not buy them if you don’t like ’em, but you’ve already told us that you have at least one. It’s also one of your go-to DGU guns, if I’m not mistaken. That makes your disdain a little odd in my book. Glock bashers are just as odd as Glock worshippers.
I own two Glocks. I’ve owned a Glock for longer than most people have – I bought my first Glock 19 (gen 2, I guess the Glock fans call it) in ’88. I have thousands upon thousands of rounds through the thing. I carried the G19 for the same reason I carry a G36: I will shed no tears if it is seized. It would be only a financial nuisance.
Nothing about a Glock has ever made me like it. While I admit that it is functional, simple in design, and reliable, it never has been, and never will be, a gun that I like. I give them the same grudging respect that I give to AK-47’s, a weapon designed for illiterate peasant conscripts: It works, even when operated by people only barely familiar with metal tools, never mind firearms.
Fair enough, although a design for “illiterate peasant conscripts” is pretty harsh. If a new shooter had $500 for an auto loading SD pistol, the money towards a Glock would be well spent as far as I’m concerned. The Glock also makes a good gun for police departments and defensive use. I just appreciate designs for their elegance, reliability, accuracy, lightweight, combat / SD potential, etc. The Glock is not terribly accurate with stock barrels, and it is definitely not elegant. The 1911 design is markedly superior in those regards. If one had the means, why not buy ’em all? To each their own. I certainly don’t feel foolish packing a Glock 27, or 23, although I certainly have other choices.
When DG calls plastics pistols crap he doesn’t mean that they are useless pieces of junk. Note that he compared them to an AK-47 which we all know from a manufacturing point of view is a worthless piece of junk compared to an AR-15. I would rather my life depend on the Commie crap gun than on Eugene Stoners’ wonder of engineering. Now the M-1 Garand, the M-14 and FN FAL combine high reliability with good engineering.
Face it, classic revolver designs and JMB’s autos are solidly designed and engineered. If you buy a 1911 that is meant as combat pistol they are also reliable and effective.
And a polymer framed pistol that can fire thousands of rounds without issue is also solidly designed.
I don’t think anyone is going to argue with you that those are good designs. The striker fired plastic pistol as “perfected” by Glock does a lot of the same things at a lower price point. It is the ultimate “good enough” weapon.
Practically speaking, it literally checks all the same boxes at a much more attractive price point. It is lighter, and maintenance is near idiot proof.
No, it’s not sexy, but neither are Corollas, Camries, Accords, or Civics. Would I rather drive a Cadillac? Sure, if you’re paying for it.
Exactly. I have several conceal carry weapons, including an XDS in .45 caliber. I did not get my XDS for competition shooting or pleasure shooting at the range. I bought it because it is extremely lethal, accurate at the distance I need for self defense, and it is quite concealable. I prefer a heavier and longer trigger pull for my concealed carry weapons. In a close-in fight, a match grade trigger means absolutely nothing, but when carrying every day, it is worth it to me to have a slightly heavier trigger pull to further avoid a negligent discharge. When I open carry or I want to practice my marksmanship, sure, I will bring out the full sized 1911’s with the custom trigger jobs. Besides, my conceal carry weapons are regularly abused – scratches, dust, dirt, sand, sweat, rain, snow, etc. — so spending a bundle for a feature that adds little or no value to the specialized purpose of a firearm is not an option for me.
My XDs was among the first batch returned after the “upgrade”. I sent it in with 500 failure free rds, a smooth, cleanly breaking trigger with a 6.5# pull. I got back a 8.75# trigger, albeit with a smooth pull and clean break. After 600 more failure free rds, the pull weight dropped to 8.5#. I the followed the advice posted on the XDForum and dropped the pull to 5.25# by pushing down the sear safety spring a little at a time. Next came the Powder River Precision striker spring. The pistola now has a 4.5# pull and is as smooth as silk with a clean break. Reliability and power in a small, very concealable firearm.
The article doesn’t point out that by the end of the few hundred *dry fires* MAC’s friend Joe did before the video and the *dry firing* and shooting they did during the video, the trigger was comparable to the pre-recall version. The comment about firing a thousand *rounds* through the gun is a bit off the mark. Breaking the recoil springs? Yeah, actual rounds. Trigger? Dry fire will do.
I was going to point out the same thing. The trigger mechanism goes through the same motion whether there’s a bang in the chamber or not, so a couple evenings in front of the TV with a snap cap is all that’s needed for this kind of “trigger job”.
Fair comment. Text amended. Remembering that even after dry firing Joe reckoned the trigger wasn’t as good as the original.
Springfield is an Illinois company. they import the XD line from Coratia — big differance.
Sent both my .45 and 9mm XDS back in for the fix, and can’t say I have any issues with their triggers now that I have them back. Very accurate, good trigger pull (my opinion), reliable. Do they gave the trigger pull of my 1911s? Nope. Are they more than adequate for my carry pistol? Absolutely.
The title to this story needs to be changed and is misleading. It is a good, informative video and there is no need to go all drama-queen on the title. I was expecting to find out there was no hope for my returned XDS from the title, but after watching the video learned there is hope – just need a little work.
I own both the XDS and Shield. Post-mod I shoot the Shield a little tighter group than the XDS (I think the in part due to the increase trigger pull of the XDS). But it also might be because I had more trigger time with the shield while my XDS was on vacation in Illinois.
Croatia has the highest rate of alcoholism in eastern Europe. You can keep your XDs. I’ll stick with Walther, Glock, Beretta, FNH and S&W.
And so what?
And the US routinely falls in international school rankings and leads the charge with obesity. That said, it’s not stupid fat people making Smiths and I doubt it’s drunk Croats making XD’s.
One of the first automobiles had a rubber windshield and glass tires. Not good, so they then hired a materials engineer with the philosophy “Use the right materials for functionality of intended purpose and use”.
All pistols were fully steel originally but then very stong polymers were developed. Gaston the “engineer” said, “lets use steel where we should and plastic where we can.”
Strong bridges use to be made of all stone
The Brooklyn Bridge used Stone supports and seel cable
The Golden gate, all steel
The next one maybe will have steel supports but carbon fiber cables.
Trend any one? Are fire arms an exception?
All those on high horses…DISMOUNT.
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