Some Illinois Concealed Carry instructors simply cannot abide by Illinois’ relatively simple and straight-forward requirements in CCW classes. What does that mean for the students who paid for their sub-standard training?
One Canton man says his concealed carry license was revoked at no fault of his own. It turns out, he’s not alone. People in Illinois are receiving similar letters warning them to turn in their CCL, or risk being arrested.
The Canton man and some of the others might not have had any fault in this. The instructor might have fulfilled the legal requirements for the man’s class. However instructors who cut corners often cut corners in more than a single class.
What’s more, Illinois’ concealed carry law says failure to surrender a suspended or revoked license is a misdemeanor charge in and of itself.
After months of struggle to get his CCL back legally, Ken Cook says he’s frustrated with Illinois State Police.
“The letter stated you have to surrender your conceal carry license within 48 hours or risk the possibility of a warrant being issued for an arrest,” said Cook.
“All of a sudden it’s revoked because my instructor was audited and they revoked his certification and therefore a chain reaction, everyone he taught was revoked because the training deemed insufficient by the state of Illinois,” said Cook.
Our own John Boch, an Illinois State Police-approved concealed carry instructor, tells us this happens from time to time. And revoking some or all of a faulty instructor’s students has become pretty much standard operating procedure for the ISP.
Usually, Boch says, the ISP tells them to get re-trained by an approved instructor within a certain time frame or they will forfeit their $153 application fee and become permanently revoked. Anyone permanently revoked can reapply, of course, after paying another $153 application fee.
So, in this case, what did the Tazewell County State Attorney have to say about it? A whole lot of nothing…
“It seems as if the revocation letters were pretty harsh, and would be the type of letter you would expect to be sent from a violator when in fact these were victims,” said [Tazewell County State’s Attorney Stewart] Umholtz.
– Jenise Rebholz for HOIABC.com, Troubleshooters: Gun Owners Losing Concealed Carry Licenses at Fault of Instructors
The Illinois State Police have issued revised certificates of completion for instructors to issue to their students. Those certificates include the minimum amount of time for instruction along with the minimum topics to be covered. This has helped students to understand what’s required… and to notice if and when a course falls short.
Boch notes that those taking classes that fail to achieve the minimums should not be surprised if they later receive notice that their license has been revoked, as Mr. Cook did.
“… the right of the people to…bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
“The 2nd Amendment is OUR PERMIT! “
Minor correction, the 2A is our guarantee that we do NOT NEED a permit. Doesn’t work well in a jury trial though.
Say in on a Legal Heat course yesterday at a cabelas. It was awful. The instructor seemed to know his stuff but the speed was lightening fast and the teacher’s ego bearly fit in the big box store. Plus he blatantly talked down to women and told husbands to lie to their wives. It ended with clicking through a bunch of PowerPoint slides rapidly while mumbling and then just gave up and said “let’s go take some pictures.”
Why does CCW have to be such a sham? Why are so many instructors such jerks?
When you mandate ‘classes’ for bullshit reasons you get bullshit classes. Most people don’t want to be there and as any middle school teacher will tell you, that isn’t conducive to a good learning environment.
Uhhh, no. It’s one thing if people want to buy a gun for home protection or to go to the range and have fun. Concealed carry is serious business and I as a civilian and an instructor, don’t want these mouth breathing morons that infest the gun culture carrying a loaded weapon in public. They are liabilities not assets. If you’re going to carry a loaded weapon concealed in public, you need to be competent and proficient with that weapon. That means getting proper training and requires routine practice. Two things most of the gun owners in our country don’t do. Shooting cans off the fence post in the back yard or the sand pit does not make you competent or proficient to carry concealed.
Yes, because rights should be privileges in your mind, right? Self defense shouldn’t require a bunch of hoops, as it is a natural right. Not everyone has 16 hours to sit in class to earn their “right” back. I would rather spend time with family, or going to other activities than sit in a class full of government mandated fluff that I could have complete in less than an hour online, at home.
JD….seems like POS instructors are the biggest danger.
No…you don’t need training other than simple gun safety.
Carrying a gun is not only for those of means who can afford tacticool training and weekly range sessions.
Carry is for citizens.
I would offer that elitist like yourself are the problem in that you want to decide who “worthy” of carrying a gun.
JD, that is just bull. People have been carrying firearms since there were firearms, several hundred years, and all the “intense” training now being dreamed up is deliberately useless and counterproductive. When you take up a gun you know what education you need, and it is up to you to get it. When training (or licenses, or anything else) is mandated by the government, that is called “infringement”.
It’s a basic point and kill interface. What could all this training possibly be for? Do you “slice the pie” every time you open a door at the office? Keep the high speed low drag nonsense for yourself if you like. Don’t force it on the rest of us. Yes, I have spent money on courses. A few were somewhat insightful but most are staffed by dudes like JD. Gods among us mere mortals who have yet to figure out to point the muzzle away from our own face when activating the firing sequence.
Lol typical responses I get from students in my classes that “know what they’re doing” and have been shooting all they’re lives. And they are more often than not the worst shooters in the class. I had a guy tell me he carried for 40 years and was in my class only to get the piece of paper. Well, on his first draw out of the holster he shot the damn floor between his feet! Yeah im sure the rest of you guys are at the same skill level. I’m not advocating for gun control. Buy as many as you want. I think we should be able to buy and own full auto ma dueces. I’m saying if you’re gonna be around me and my family in public with a loaded weapon, have a fucking clue as to what you’re doing. Because there is more to it than a basic safety class.
jd is an instructor. Naturally he wants to see instruction mandated by the state. It’s his rice bowl.
Gotta protect his egg. I get it, but it’s really not helpful. Of course, I’m just a less than humble, floor shooting mouthbreather in JD’s world.
Also it’s “my family and I.” As in, if you’re going to be talking in public around my family and I then you better have a fucking clue about proper grammar.
“Concealed carry is serious business and I as a civilian and an instructor, don’t want these mouth breathing morons that infest the gun culture carrying a loaded weapon in public.”
But it’s totally OK for them to open carry, since where it’s legal that generally requires no training, because it’s only concealed carry that’s serious business, right?
Seriously, do you have any idea how self-righteous and silly you sound? I mean, back in like 1880, how the actual fuck did all those “mouthbreathers” manage not to kill themselves without laws forcing them to get your help as an “instructor”?
Also, how does being a “civilian” give your opinion, about anything, more weight? Are we supposed to say “Holy shit! A civilian! He must know everything about things and stuff because otherwise he couldn’t possibly be awarded the title of ‘CIVILIAN’!!!”?
@Broke_it – If you want to play the grammar Nazi, you need to remember you click your heels first, and then offer the stiff-arm salute.
That is grammatically correct. The first person pronoun in that sentence needs to be in the objective case, not subjective.
Putting yourself at the end of a list rather than the beginning is a usage recommendation unless the elements of the list are not equal. In this case, they are not. The writer appears to want to emphasize himself first, and this is legitimate.
I’m glad he does, because it makes it even clearer than it already was that he is an elitist and arrogant jerk who fails to understand what the words “right,” “bear,” and “infringed” mean.
I’m working with a questionable Mexican education, so I trust you’re correct random internet stranger. Putting the “me” first still sounds like cookie monster to my eye ears.
No, I absolutely disagree with open carry. Open carry are for the mouth breathing arm chair commandos. Fucking losers that want to make a statement. A statement that says “look at me and my gun, I’m a badass!” HAHAHAHA no you are not! You’re a fool whose weapon I can snatch and pistol whip you with before you even knew what happened. I’ll carry open in the woods or on my property, but when I’m town? Never, why give up the advantage of surprise? Again more stupidity that infests the gun community.
@broke_it perhaps you should learn English before you start giving lessons. And THAT is exactly my point. Morons that think they know what they’re doing and know shit.
JD, I think you’re the one missing the point. It’s ok, it must be tough to see past your own inflated sense of importance.
I bet this jerkoff owns revolvers and a bunch of walnut bolt guns too. Smh.
Styrch9 your argument is lame. I only mentioned I was a civilian to convey that I don’t claim to be some high speed operator, and that I spend time in the general public amongst other civilians of whom may be carrying concealed. As far as how people didn’t shoot themselves and each other back in the 1800s, well it was a different time. And people DID shoot each other back then don’t kid yourself. The weapons were single actions and they were more a part of their lives. Therefore they handled them more on a regular basis. Again not like the fools of today, who buy a gun, with zero training, decide to carry it one day, then not touch it for a month. Then decide hmm I’m going into a bad part of town I’ll pack the pistol today, and shoot themselves in the ass because they thought their 19.99 holster in the small of their back was a “good enough” holster and just as good as a 100 dollar raven.
Look, for everyone whose panties I entangled within their crack, perhaps you guys need to be honest with yourselves and accept you aren’t as good as you think. Training to efficiently and safely run a piece of machinery isn’t a bad thing. Not a one of us just got into a vehicle for the first time and drove it with the efficiency that we drive them after years of driving.
That’s the reason Here in N. Fl. most people try and go to courses held by NRA instructors because most of them want to teach the people they are the ones that teach young hunters courses so young people can get there hunting licenses I Know that’s who taught the CCP course when I took to many years ago to think about class room and range shooting
“When you mandate ‘classes’ for bullshit reasons you get bullshit classes.”
Exactly. My experience with “trainers” is that most I’ve encountered in over 4 decades of teaching are simply piss-poor at presenting the the information they being paid to impart. Simply put, it takes a lot of effort to be a good teacher and most of the people people I’ve encountered as trainers lack the educational background and public speaking skills to do even an adequate job.
This doesn’t mean there aren’t good trainers out there—it just means they’re hard to find. To this end,
I think TTAG would do everybody here a big favor by starting a list of good CCL instructors. If this works for roofers on Home Advisors, it ought to work for CCL instructors on TTAG. Just sayin’ . . .
JD:
Your argument here could, charitably, be called a “trainwreck”.
@JD, you had a semblence of a logical argument buried in there somewhere, but ya done destroyed your own argument with your “angry elf” repertoire
JD,
Operating a handgun effectively for the overwhelming majority (like 98% or greater) of self-defense events is exceedingly simple and does not require several hours of training.
Shall we review the details?
(1) Identify and acknowledge a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm that legally justifies use of deadly force.
(2) Draw handgun with finger OFF of the trigger.
(3) Point handgun at attacker.
(4) Move finger to trigger and actuate trigger.
(5) Repeat as necessary until attacker is no longer a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
(6) Take finger OFF of trigger.
(7) Re-holster handgun.
It would take me less than 5 minutes to explain that and demonstrate that to someone who has never handled nor fired a handgun before. And then it would take me all of 5 minutes to supervise them practicing the motions with an unloaded handgun — offering any necessary corrections. Finally, the student could practice correct motions for 15 minutes by themselves with an unloaded handgun to really cement proper handling into their memory. After that, the student can go to a range and practice what they learned.
It isn’t rocket science.
JD,
As for your comments spurning open carry:
(1) If open carry is so dangerous and ill-advised, why do uniformed law enforcement officers carry openly?
(2) If disarming an open carrier is so easy and such a great idea, how come we don’t hear about criminals disarming uniformed law enforcement hundreds of times a month?
(3) If you see me carrying openly, what makes you think I don’t also have a concealed handgun that I can bring to bear if you try to take my openly visible handgun from its ACTIVE RETENTION HOLSTER?
(4) How about the deterrent value of open carry? I have personally seen it first hand and I am sure countless others have as well.
(5) And, perhaps most importantly, you fail to recognize the political value of openly carried handguns. A well dressed person who is pleasant and polite — and who happens to have an openly visible handgun on their hip — helps to normalize firearm ownership and possession in public. Such a person is an ambassador for firearms ownership. Again, I have personally seen this first hand with multiple pleasant and curious inquiries about my handgun on my hip.
This whole “firearms training” is a racket. Thankfully I live in a state that has never required it.
@garrison Great idea! I agree 100%
@uncommon sense no it’s not rocket science. But if you think 5 minutes of instruction prepares someone for a life and death situation, you yourself sound like you could use some instruction. Like most that have replied here you don’t know what you don’t know. Like anything else it is much more involved that what it appears. It takes a minimum of 3000 reps according to some scientists before something becomes muscle memory. And that’s on the low side that I’ve seen. I’ve seen some say 5000 reps and I’ve also read where some say 10,000 reps before something becomes ingrained. What you’re trying to accomplish is unconscious competence. Meaning you don’t have to think about the shooting part, it’s all done without conscious thought. Sorry but your 5 minutes of explanation and 15 minutes of practice ain’t gonna cut the mustard. In your 5 minutes of instruction where do you mention what to do if the gun jams? Reloads? What happens if the shooter has one arm injured and has to use their opposite hand? Multiple opponents? What if the shooter is knocked down? What then? Dude you would SUCK as an instructor! Lmfao!😂 again, you don’t know what you don’t know.
JD…humans have been killing each other for thousands of years with and without tactical training…
@uncommon sense Yawwwwwwn.. why do cops open carry? Because their job is supposed to uphold the law. Being able to do that job requires tools. They need fast access to those tools. A civilian would need fast access to their weapon if faced with a deadly confrontation, however, it is not a civilians job to put themselves in potential deadly encounters. As a civilian, you should be focusing on avoiding problems and having the situational awareness to see a potential problem and position yourself and possess the skills that will allow you to come out on top.
You have never heard of a cop getting their gun snatched and used on themselves? Really?! Yes, it DOES happen. Which is the reason why cops have retention holsters. I have yet to see the arm chair commandos who open carry use a retention holster. Not saying that they don’t exist, but pay attention when you see one in public, chances are it’s a 15 dollar uncle mikes garbage holster clipped on their sweatpants.🤦♂️
If you carry openly why do you carry concealed as well? Sounds like bullshit to me. Now you’re just making up shit for the sake of argument. Or could it be that you are afraid of someone snatching your open carry gun from behind when you have both hands full at the sept store?
Yeah deterrent is what most open carriers claim. Maybe the pimply face millennial loser thief. But I can assure you you aren’t deterring any hardcore ex cons or ms-13 scum or jihadi scum. Not in the least.
I could give two ratshits about the political value. See, like I said earlier, it’s about making a statement. Have no illusions, I do not carry a weapon everyday for political values. It is to protect me and my family from any various scum that infects society that happens to cross my path.
MUDFLAP , THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS , PEOPLE LIKE JD NEED TO EARN A PAYCHECK !! THEY ALSO NEED TO BE HEARD. YOU KNOW , FROM ATOP THEIR HIGH HORSE , FOR THE JD’S OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY ARE SPECIAL. CUDOS TO JD.
Nothing to do with it. It would seem Illinois instructors may just be following the lead of their own state government. What was it? 3 previous IL Governors in the State Pen at one time?
For crying out loud- IT’S ILLINOIS !!!
Who would expect any honesty or fair play?
4 of the last 8 governors, actually. JB might bring the average back up at the rate he’s going ‘tho…
Wow….where have I heard that before?
Repeating the same shit over & over & over isn’t going to change a thing even though it is true.
And just think…all of the national reciprocity folks want the fedgov to mandate all this stuff. Can you imagine that?
The solution is to get rid of the CCL and CCW and make “freedom” the default.
The solution is to get rid of democrats. All of them. And not just from office.
And start a new 2nd party that abides by the limits placed on government by the Constitution to oppose the Republican Party.
Sign me up.
Isn’t that what the Tea Party was all about?
It already exists, we’re call Libertarians.
Libertarians, yes. The Libertarian Party, no. They’re just a bunch of potheads who don’t want to pay taxes. Not a serious party capable of governing.
And as of last time, they are in favor of increased gun control.
^^^^^^^^
That right there.
It NEEDS to be made a “Captial Crime” for any Law Enforcement agency or other government entity to infringe on lawful constitutional carry (re: or purchase/possess, etc…) Any personal side arm or weapon capable of being employed in such a role! With a 250k in Compensatory Dispensation for each event of infringement…As well as additional fines, prison terms, and defunding of said agency…
Aaron,
There already is a federal law that does exactly that. Unfortunately, fedzilla refuses to enforce it upon any law enforcement agency for enforcing firearm laws.
The specific law is Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law, 18 U.S. Code § 242.
This law specifies that any violation of our Constitutional rights which include the threatened use of a dangerous weapon — which is pretty much guaranteed if we do not comply with an arrest for carrying a firearm without licensing — specifies a ten year prison sentence. And if law enforcement arrests us and takes us away to jail, which is kidnapping, that law specifies any term of imprisonment up to life in prison and even the death penalty.
Advocating for mass murder, huh? How very leftist of you.
Of course this was meant to be a reply to @TrueBornSonOfLiberty‘s comment above.
Now I, too, will join the chorus of people who would like the edit button back…
The modern democrat party are THE domestic enemies our Founders warned us about. The Revolutionary War was fought over taxes and gun control. (It wasn’t about “Taxation Without Representation”, as the colonists were always taxed without rebellion. Only once the taxes became onerous did it become untenable. And the I’ll remind that the War actually started after the British attempted to seize powder and arms held in Concorde). Now go take a peak at the official democrat platform. Higher taxes and gun control. I’ll also add, what you call “mass murder” others call a DEFENSE of our Constitutional Republic against bonafide terrorists and their “War of Leftist Aggression”. America has a 250+ year tradition of fighting against enemies that pose an existential threat to our nation. Never have we faced a more insidious and dangerous threat.
Republicans are anti gun and liberty too. I don’t know why you just blame the dems.
Smh. There’s a fundamental difference and if it needs to be explained to you then someone else can. I’ll just say that sure, there are some individual Republicans that are RINOS. The democrat party includes these issues as foundational to their collective ideology.
The enemy is no longer “in the wire.” Today, the enemy sits in the Command Post.
“Herp derp Republicans are just as bad.”
No. Not by a long shot. The democrats are fundamentally at war with the RTKBA and the constitution. The republicans at least we have hope in forcing them to actually support those causes. Look, there’s a ton of RINOS and anti gun republicans. But if you look at the GOP party wide, I’d say a little over half actually do support our cause. We actually have the ability to drag the GOP into constitutionalism and gun rights through primaries. *there is ZERO, ZERO* chance of dragging the democrats down that road. If you look at the politicians who actually support gun rights and the constitution they ARE ALL Republicans. There are NO democrats who behave that way. The goal needs to be to primary the anti gun republicans, not just say fuck them all and kill our cause through purity tests like some stuck up German.
You should read, very carefully and slowly, the Declaration of Independence. You have missed numerous reasons for our split from England. Among them was “For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent” but there are many others.
We did not break from England for any short list of reasons. It was a long list, accumulated over decades. All are important and must be taken together. Otherwise it is a case of cherry-picking snippets of history. Never a good idea.
I know full well the comprehensive list of reasons, chief amongst them the ability to redress those list of grievances. My point was there doesn’t need to be a comprehensive list to argue and prove that today’s modern democrat party are domestic terrorists. It’s unequivocal.
We have the Government that our founding fathers fought against.
We have governing politicians our Founders fought against. Our government is the closest thing to perfect the world has ever known. There’s a consequential difference.
“Our government is THEORETICALLY …” When entire branches of government break the law with impunity in order to deliberately swing elections from one party to the other, that government is too corrupt to be allowed to continue. There have been some adjustments, but nowhere near enough. And it is looking as though some adjustments within the ranks of media may be required, as well.
Buyer beware. You can hire a doctor that has a license, but is it from an on-line school in Granada? Sometimes you never know. Sometimes you’re the one in deep doo-doo through no fault of your own.
Boch COULD HAVE you know written this…as I sit a mile from Indiana where CCL requirements are “breathing and no felonies”. Forever and open carry for 175buck’s(or is it $150?). What praytell do you think you’ll “learn” in even a “good” ILLinois ccl course?!? More BS from “we hate you and want you dead state”😩
It’s also required in Illinois to surrender your drivers license if it’s suspended or revoked, and I have never seen a warrant issued for that violation. Doubtful a warrant would ever be issued for failure to surrender CCL. Too many resources required by the ISP/local states attorneys for them to go through with it.
The card is also to be turned over to the police department that has jurisdiction over the location of the suspended/revoked card holders residence. That police department is the one who has to apply for the warrant for the card, not the ISP. Local PDs are also not informed by the ISP of the suspended/revoked status, it would only be discovered by the PD if the card holder turns it in to them or through a LEADS check during a contact or investigation involving the subject.
As a resident of The People’s Republic of Illinois, let me just say “Welcome to Illinois”.
2 hours on the 4 rules and storage??? How do the students stay awake?
Something like this happened here recently and the county was really good about it. It was one of those $50 classroom at your house range time at the public range affairs. There were only a couple dozen people effected and I heard they all got recertified by the sheriffs range master at no charge.
sounds like something a normal, reasonable cop-shop would do, as opposed to the illinois reaction which seemed authoritarian and hostile to the “proles”.
I took the 2 day class at my local range. It was great. They were very professional (retired police). First day on technique, general gun information, caliber, penetration, difference stance etc. Second day was on legal stuff and the test. It was well worth the $200 I paid. Now there’s coupons and classes for less everywhere. I don’t regret the money and days spent there.
Somewhere my last post is floating out there in cyberspace….about the great class I took. I’ll wait for it.
I have had a permit for many years and have found it to be a good idea to take the CCW class from time to time because laws tend to change over the years. It is good to keep up.
If you want good practice participate in IPSA shoots. They are fun, you will learn a lot and be around good (mostly) people.
I understand that everyone wants to be law-abiding, but when you comply with an illegal law, you give legitimacy to it. That’s why I will never entertain the idea of receiving a CCW. It is blatantly offensive to me that I have to receive certification from a group of humans so that I can exercise my natural right to keep and bear arms.
your sentiment is quite admirable in a philosophical way, but in practice might very well bankrupt you and ruin your family. oh yeah, and put you in jail.
it might not be “fair”, but nobody said life is fair.
I have never heard of this happening in my state but when a “certified instructor” offered me a spot in his half day class (our state mandates 8hrs including a range practical) I took a hard pass. Every CCW holder in my state that I haved talked to has a different story to tell about their class and instructor and none of their experiences match the state requirements. So in my state anyway, the certification is a joke. Just another hoop to jump thru. The stoopid permit is a barely legible piece of perforated card stock about the size of 3 postage stamps. Holder must pay to have laminated by 3rd party.
Novel approach there. Audit instructors and levy some b.s. to invalidate them and pull permits from s ores of people. The fear of being revoked might even keep people from applying in the first place.
Never attribute to stupidity, that which can be attributed to malice. I know it’s cliche, but that saying helped me through some difficult bullshit.
To JD…it should be constitutional carry in every state that way open carry or concealed carry wouldn’t matter…
this is the problem with government having so much power…some powerful apparatchiks will invariably use their power to crush the little people “just becuz”.
i always get angry listening to liberals/leftists preach about how europe has stricter gun control and a lower murder rate, as if the mechanized mass murders by Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Tito, etc. etc. etc. never happened.
At the current US murder rate it would take approx 1,000 years to rack-up Stalin’s body count.
not to mention that the list of countries with higher murder rates and stricter gun control than America is long and includes Mexico, Jamaica, Brazil, Russia, the leftist utopia of venezuela, and many others.
and don’t even get me started on abortion. 50 times more people are murdered in the womb each year than out of the womb in America. liberals are OK with vivesection of a human, who has no control of its circumstances, and yet think they shiuld also have control over the people.
AARON , thank you !
The land of the free and the brave…..
M1Lou makes a good point. I in fact took an online course , passed with no problem. Its not rocket science , it is also not a privilege as someone noted. It is a right , allways has been , allways will be. Any one that does not understand our 2nd Amendment rights , does not deserve to call themselves a POTG. Nor do they deserve the right to carry. Imho.
While anyone who carries a gun in public should be responsible and train, the 2nd amendment protects our right to protect ourselves. I agree that people should be more responsible, but it is very hard to require anyone to be more responsible – the real point here is who is judging the person carrying?
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