Illinois Instructor Faces a Felony Charge For Improper Concealed Carry Training

1. Great Job, put the instructor in jail, convicted of a felony and she will never own a firearm again. Great work state police. How’s that murder rate doing in the Windy City, never mind you have real stuff that’s more important to attend to. Those FOID Cards sure have made your state a safe place, well done.

   The correct course of action should have been, receive the complaint, contact the instructor and ask her to correct her training class to comply with state law and order her to retrain prior students for free or offer to refund their money. If she refused, revoke her training authorization. Simple.

   Since the State Police didn’t say what her “Big Crime” actually was, we have no idea if this was a small technical violation that could have been easily corrected or if she was blatantly selling certificates without requiring class attendance, etc which would show the intent to defraud her customers and willfully not comply with state law. I would imagine if she did something really bad, it would be part of the press release.

   Living in a Constitutional Carry State, this all sounds like a waste of time, money and police resources. It reminds me of the stupid, “Printing Laws” that could get you arrested if someone actually saw the outline or shudder the thought, your actual gun was visible, Oh My, the trauma of it all.

   I remember before Illinois had a way to legally carry concealed, a Chicago Alderman somehow forgot his pistol in his bag at the airport, set off the metal detector. We all had a big laugh, innocent mistake, etc. Besides he had a part time job (Sure he did) as a licensed security guard, that allowed him to carry his security guard sidearm concealed. I mean the Beretta 25 ACP he was carrying was what a typical security officer would use, right?

   One law for thee, another for me = Tyranny.

   • Excellent opening paragraph; I agree. CC holders shouldn’t have to bear additional charges for something they’ve already paid for. And, the state should be held accountable for not verifying that people are in fact training as they are intended to do.

   • “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.” Jefferson

2. Five months to investigate while students continued to take classes? The state is incompetent that didnt suspend the instructor pending a finding.

   • I’m having flashbacks of my time as an HR guy for a private security company.

     Our Illinois offices had to do a state-required 20 hour training program for all new hires before they could get their security officer licenses. The training was a joke, and you could probably cover all the relevant material (i.e. “you’re not a cop”, “this is how to do a proper incident report”, etc.) in two or three hours, but the state required 20 hours of in person training. So, you showed the lame videos and even lamer Powerpoints, you passed around the redundant handouts, etc. Failing to meet those requirements and then signing off on the forms would have been a crime.

     Unless it’s shown Lumma was handing out VODA levels of bad information, the ISP response seems grossly disproportionate to whatever corners she may have cut. They watched her for 5 months. Did it never occur to them to call her up at some point and say “look, going forward, you need to do X,Y, and Z to stay compliant”?

     • Whoops, this was supposed to be a separate post, not a response. Sorry!

   • Suspend her just for an unsubstantiated allegation while they investigated? That’s even worse. No, the first comment has it right. Absent actual fraud, such as signing off for classes which were not taken, this is just the usual government travesty.

     • My understanding is that after the receipt of a complaint, ISP actually sends someone to attend and audit the class.

       • Is the class 5 months long? Or should that have taken 5 days?

     • And THAT is the problem with this stupid crap that we just read here at TTAG — they got their hands on a press release that didn’t say anything, plastered a Click Bait Headline on the sorry excuse for a story, and published it, knowing that anything done by the State of Illinois would get a rise out of the Bubba Crowd that forms TTAG’s target audience.

       MAYBE she was finishing her classes 5 minutes early — maybe she was omitting some particularly stupid material that is officially “required” — OR MAYBE she was signing training certificates for applicants who just paid her for the certificate — WE DON’T KNOW.

       Personally I don’t know all the exact requirements for CCW training in Illinois — I was a state certified CCW instructor in a different state. But what I do know is that every state that has a training requirement for a CCW license has a whole bunch of specific requirements saying exactly what material MUST be covered in the class, how long the class needs to be (as an absolute minimum even if you have covered all the material quicker) and exactly what kind of testing is required. Every state that has a training requirement also has some sort of mandatory training for the instructors, that ensures every instructor knows what is required.

       States with training requirements usually also have a program to occasionally verify that those requirements are being met. While I was a state-certified CCW instructors, I scrupulously met and documented every requirement. Not every instructor did. After a very small number of instructors were found cutting corners or simply selling training certificates, my state added more verification requirements — those added requirements were too bothersome for a lot of instructors who weren’t making a business of running large classes every week so many of us (myself included) stopped teaching the CCW course.

       We don’t know what Ms Lumma was or wasn’t doing. We don’t know who turned her in or why. And we don’t know how the allegations were investigated or what the ISP found.

       I’m not going to suggest that we just trust the ISP to have done the right thing, but at the same time I’m not about to say that Lumma is some innocent victim.

       Maybe John Boch will get his butt out of his comfortable chair and at least make a couple of phone calls to see what was going on. (Fat Chance of that at TTAG)

3. “……protect and maintain the integrity of the FOID and CCL.”

   GFY.

   • I’m pretty sure that the state of Illinois does not know what the word integrity means.
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

4. “60-day grace period” that’s mighty magnanimous of the ISP while imposing another financial and time impediment to persons who legitimately believed they had completed the State’s draconian requirements to exercise a Right.

   As Mauser asked above, I wonder what the heinous omission in her teaching was that took 5 months to discover. Montana is not perfect where the Second Amendment is concerned…but, it is a damn far sight better than the Democratic People’s Republic of Illinois (easily confused with the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea).

   • We need constitutional carry here. Since our governor is already comfy, doubtful it’ll happen.

     • We have had permitless carry since 18 Feb 2021. I’m not sure what you mean when you state “constitutional carry”.

       Where I would like to see MT firearm laws changed is: clarifying / strengthening the Civil Suit exemption for the legal use of a firearm for self defense, there’s too much lawyer wiggle room in the existing Statute (Mississippi has a much more clearly defined and protective Civil Suit exemption). I would like to be able to legally carry in a restaurant where alcohol is served (currently under MT law we may not carry where ever alcohol is served – heck, even Washington State allows concealed carry in a restaurant serving alcohol…but not in an actual Bar or the Bar part of a restaurant – think Famous Dave’s or Applebee’s)….should go without saying that if you are armed then you should not be drinking.

       • Brings up the question “what is Constitutional Carry”, and is it the same everywhere? TX supposedly just adopted it, yet I have no idea what Texas rules are. But I know what 2A says, and that would translate to anyone can carry a loaded weapon, concealed or open, anywhere, emphasis on anyone. Visitor from another state, or another country, fine. Male, female, or not sure, fine. Here legally, or not, fine. Age limits; if you are young enough that you do not need to pay taxes on income, your right can be restricted, otherwise, no.

       • OOoops! Forgot convicted felon, spouse abuser, abused spouse, all fine. There are actions which should be criminal, possessing something is not an action, much less criminal.

5. Constitutional Carry states would never have this “problem.” That’s the problem though. Illinois and Constitution are like oil and water.

6. I wonder if USMC firearms training meets the Ill requirements? Probably not. Oh, well.

   • Their requirements for training are paying the state money. That’s all it’s EVER been about. Ever. Provides an opportunity to some willing to make a business out of it, but easily shut down by the state, as we see here, for bullshit reasons more thank likey.

   • You also have to pay $153.53 to Illinois plus the cost of the 8 hour class which is usually half of the 16 hour class. Illinois has to get their money. You will wait way past the 90 days and when you do get your permit, it’s good for 5 years. See below, you only half to take 8 hours instead of 16. Been there, done that.

     • Same in Montanan for conceal.

       Veterans and such get a pass on the class, but it’s $50 (or was) to the state pending the sheriff’s approval.

       I got mine. I won’t be renewing. I’m done asking permission.

   • Illinois figures if you went to Basic Training the first 8 hours of the required training is redundant. So of a 16 hour required course, we are granted credit for the first 8 hours.

     The 2nd 8 hours is appropriate laws and range time. Range time is hitting a sasquatch size target from short range.

     Anyone with any common sense would have at least given the laws a cursory look.

     The training requirements, costs and having to have a valid ID is enough to keep those poor people from owning a firearm. But they can still vote a few times and continue to do so after death.

     If they put half the effort they put to having a firearm into election security we could have confident elections.

   • Air Force “Expert Marksman” didn’t get me out of training, or even make it cheaper.

7. She must be the one that enabled all those Chicongo white supremacists to get their guns.

   • Burn the witch

8. If you have are former U.S. military with a DD214 or active duty then you do not have to take the the first 8 hours (mostly the basics and safety of pistol shooting) of the 16 hour class so sort of.
   The 2nd 8 hours are the IL state laws which you will have to take.
   You will also have to qualify on a range which is a joke.
   10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target with a 70% hit rate.
   If cant pass this part then you shouldn’t be carrying.

   • “If cant pass this part then you shouldn’t be carrying.”

     REALLY? I totally missed that section of the BOR.

     • You are familiar with a B-27 silhouette, yes?
       It’s 24″ x 45″.
       If you cant hit that HUGE STATIONARY target at 15 feet then IMO you just give it up.
       “Take this 1911 and shoot that sick cow”- I missed. At point blank range?
       “Here watch this”! Then the guy proceeds to shoot through the ceiling.
       It’s nothing to do with the BOR, it’s about MY safety.
       I’m not treating you like an idiot but think of the dimensions.
       It’s TWO feet by almost FOUR feet. You have to hit it 7 out of 10 shots.
       Someone who is completely blind could do this on an unlucky day.
       I cannot imagine someone with a permit that has a hard time with this.
       The car jacker got away but how did you shoot the bystander that was 180° behind you? Well I took three times to pass my CCW qualification and most shots were iffy.

       • I have a S&W snubby revolver in .38 SPL +P, I bet you cannot FIRE it 10 times in one day, never mind 30, never mind hitting a target with anything other than the first shot, you would be so afraid of the intense pain. I fired it 3 times one day and my hand ached for near a week. Why should that restrict your carry, it only holds 5 anyway? I have been told, and believe, that it would be much easier to fire if my life depended on it.

       • Jeez Louize, Texas Larry. Not fire a snobby .38spP+ 10x in one day? If you can’t perform that exercise, I would strongly urge you to stop carrying a firearm and start carrying a cane. Have you tried a different grip on the firearm? That’s the first thing I would do. I just cannot imagine what you are saying. I don’t care plus P. I believe you must have something wrong with your anatomy if that load causes you so much agony.

       • Larry I’ll take that bet. I have a 686 (.357) 2.5″ that I will occasionally carry as a backup gun. I have no problem shooting a 50 round box of 110 or 125gr .357 loads in an outing.

         I’m approaching 50 and will admit it isn’t exactly pleasant but it really isn’t that big of a deal. Does Hogue make a grip for your S&W because they do for mine. I went with Hogue Sku: 62000. It is a rubber grip and it makes a world of difference.

         I went a Hogue grip because of my Taurus Judge Ultra-Lite. That gun is unruly and the LGS said try some Hogue grips. I’ll just say it is less unruly but still nasty. That’s one of my car car guns, it fits between the seat and console in a cheapo Uncle Mikes holster.

         Anyway if you think a .38 snubby is harsh, try firing some .410 PDX defender in a 22 oz handgun. The stock Taurus grips are a joke but it’s perfect until I can get to my EDC. That’s kind of hard when you have a seat belt on. The Judge is right there but out of sight. I call it my “woke” gun.
         As in some woke idiot was a threat to my life or family so they got really woke and now they have a wake.

         When I did qualify for my Illinois CCW it was with a M&P .40. Two 15 round magazines and I was done. 30 rounds all center mass w/o any problems.
         Nobody was shooting a snubby, actually a lot of people in the class didn’t even own a gun yet. A few had never even fired a gun.

         I have since moved to a different state but keep up on what goes on in Illinois.

9. How exactly was the training deficient? Was he just telling people to sign in and leave, providing no training while certifying that he had met state requirements? That would be fraud.

   Or are they splitting hairs, say, about whether the actual material ran 15 hours instead of 16? If you ask me, that’s a charge ripe for jury nullification. The state fails to comply with the administrative details of its own laws all the time, and it certainly doesn’t charge its own people with felonies over it. Indeed, if anything it defends and indemnifies them.

   • More than likely she was trading certificates for checks, or cash with little to no class time. It took 5 months for the state police to infiltrate one of her classes with a Mr. Fudd of their own.

   • She could be guilty of something as simple as putting targets out at 10 yards.

     The 1st 8 hours are very boring to people who are familiar with handguns.
     By the book the shooting part is 5, 7 and 10 yards.

     If she recognized that certain people in her class are proficient with guns then it isn’t uncommon to set the targets at 10 yards. The logic being if you can put 30 rounds center mass at 10 yards, the there is no need to do 5 and 7 yards.
     (2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Department.

     She would be in violation of (430 ILCS 66/75) if she signed those certificates.
     Whatever she did, it took 5 months to figure it out so it was probably minor.
     If she was just handing out certificates then the ISP FSB would know immediately, an instructor has to maintain records for 5 years and certificates are usually sent electronically within a week.

     If someone is late for class my understanding they can make up for the time missed if the instructor so desires. 16 hours can be held over 2 or 3 days. It is possible that someone was a half hour late to one day which would be 15 and a half hours and they didn’t make up the time. That would also be a violation of (430 ILCS 66/75).

     It’s Illinois, anything is possible.

10. Bend the knee peasant!

11. Clock sucking sons a bitches, who ratted her out?
    This is why we cant have anything nice.

    • I can pretty much guarantee it was another instructor, FUDD level, jealous about lost business – same as the stupid f-ing fudd instructors in texas who came out against constitutional carry.
      The MI Gun Owners group is a nonprofit gun right group, if anybody reports that their training was substandard, the police are not notified – the group will contact the instructors directly (if the student doesn’t want to do it) and ask them for clarification… The student will often get refunded. It’s not hard to meet minimum standards, so any one of our people getting shorted is one of our people at risk, just like the 200 or so students of this lady. I’ve seen instructors say they’ll come do your class at your house, or that they’ll do at their own facility, done in 5 hours. State law requires minimum of 8 with 3hrs on the range.

      Any time you enforce stupid regulations, there will be hustlers out there preying on the poor and the uninformed. These license requirements are specifically steal the rights of poor and minority people, who historically have a much harder time paying the $150 for a real class, plus the $115+ for the license. Somebody offers a $50 class? sure, that’s much easier, but much more likely to be a scam.

12. Well moderate. … was it clock? sucking? or s o b’s? that hit the kill switch

    • Geez ILL sux…I can drive a scant mile east & get lifetime carry for next to nothing. And no super duper tacticool training. And they’re ruining a 60 years old gal for BS reasons. And invalidading CCL’s. Meanwhile crime is rampant in Chiraq. Good job Ill State Bulls.
      BTW crime is much lower across the border even with zero “training”. Sigh😕

13. Above it all tough guys making an example out of a woman that they issued the license to. If she goes down so should they. FOID this and CCL this yada, yada, yada. Quit pretending that sht is something it is not and call the state what it is…Ill.

14. Good to know you’re only allowed to defend your life if you’re skilled.

    Not so great? Well, maybe its best you die anyhow.

    Man, what crawled up IL ass?

    Bout long over due to tell IL NJ NY MD etc….. to pound sand, Free Men don’t ask for permission and take 16 hour classes.

    • The courts said pass concealed carry so IL had a week to do it, they were screwing around.
      They threw the Firearm Concealed Carry Act together quickly and made it pretty thorough.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_v._Madigan
      Really if you think about it, the training and class isn’t half bad
      8 hours on gun safety, cleaning, basic skills on a Saturday.
      8 hours of different scenarios and legalities on Sunday.
      Then off to the range for qualifications, very few schools have one on site.
      Back to the school or the instructor sends the certificate to you in the mail.
      The time on the range isn’t supposed to be included in the 16 hours.
      At first in 2013 some classes had 90 students so I would imagine range time was hours.
      That was to take 30 shots, so kind of boring.
      As for the class there were some really stupid people and questions on day two.
      “If someones bothering me and I have to shoot them, if they run away can I chase them down and shoot them again”? I couldn’t even make that one up, the look on the instructors face was priceless.

15. In other words a paperwork crime. In whatever way she did not teach exactly as required by the SP, did she teach as necessary?

    So this is strictly a matter of not saying the same words, using the same gestures, using the same tests, worded the same in strict accordance with the requirements of the State Police and for this she’s up for a felony?

    Man if only we could do this to the teachers at the public schools.

16. my initial instructor was (still is) a complete tool. before the state had any curriculum designed for the course he was piecing together crappy spoogoo vids like clearing a squib with a knurled steel drift and others showing various nd’s. at least he was humble about being called out a dozen times on misinformation. he bailed after receiving the free sccy swag he wanted and passed the torch to a fine young man named cary. ha.

17. I have to wonder what skin color the CCW instructor has? Also what is the skin color of most of his or her students? The FOID card was created (1967) to follow along with the California Mulford Act.

    The FOID card is the Illinois version of racist gun control.

    1. “Now, a month after the Mulford Act was passed in 1967, Illinois passed a law that, according to some state politicians, was even better.”

    https://www.mom-at-arms.com/post/turns-out-the-foid-card-exists-because-of-racial-tensions-and-armed-blacks

    And there are, SOME GUN OWNERS, who support racist gun control in Illinois.

    2. “ISRA supported the FOID card when it was first implemented in the late 1960’s”

    https://www.mom-at-arms.com/post/isra-supported-the-foid-card-when-it-was-first-implemented-in-the-late-1960-s

    Gun control is racist. It always has been. And it still is in the 21st century. If the powers that be in Illinois really wanted to stop the shootings in Chiraq, they would do what col. Jeff Coper said to do. Give inner city people guns and ammo. And they will solve their own problems. Without white Liberals being involved. I added the last part.

18. “16 hours”

    so someone snitched because they didn’t think they got their money’s worth after all the material was covered after 15 hours and the instructor didn’t see a reason to waste everyone’s time?

19. This smells like it falls into the category of…..On average you commit 3 felonies a day.

    I’m betting the reason that they didn’t mention the actual violation is that it would make the average person say “How the F#$% is that a felony?” and make the state look like the bag of fools that they are.

    https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1546698280&sr=8-1&keywords=three felonies a day

20. It must be wonderful to reside in a jurisdiction there The State Police have no real criminals to pursue, or is it.

21. Quote: “…if you are young enough that you do not need to pay taxes on income,…” Federal income taxes are based on income. There is no age too young or too old.

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