By Doc Duracoat
I’m amazed by how much hate I get when I admit to carrying my concealed weapon “Israeli style” with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber. Any safety, if present, is set to the fire position.
Please don’t comment with phrases like “you might as well be carrying a club” or “ the only safety I need is between my ears.” It sounds exactly like the empty phrases anti-gunners use when open carry is discussed. “Blood in the streets,” “every argument becomes a gunfight.” These are unthinking responses.
Let’s see where we can all agree.
We all agree an everyday carry gun should have proper self defense ammo and it should be broken in and in good working order. Here in Florida, open carry is only allowed while hunting and fishing, so concealed carry is the only choice for daily carry. The only argument is in what condition it should be carried.
I will start by saying that I concede that carrying with an empty chamber requires two hands to rack the slide. While there are one-handed methods to rack the slide, these are advanced techniques.
If you’re carrying something when attacked, you need to drop it. Dropping your items is actually a good distraction while you draw. If the item you’re carrying is a baby, you might want to set it down more gently. Although I will say that as a pediatric anesthesiologist and a father, I have seen more than one baby dropped with no ill effects (to the baby). Still, avoid if at all possible.
Another argument against empty chamber carry is the possibility of short-stroking the slide and having a misfeed. This is certainly possible. The answer is to practice drawing, racking and firing until it becomes part of muscle memory and can be done without thinking.
I don’t agree that Israeli carry is any slower than chambered carry. Most ranges near me don’t allow practicing drawing from a holster, so most people never practice this vital skill. Dry fire practice with snap caps can help, but there is no substitute for live fire drills.
Outdoor practice on private property is possible, but few people here in South Florida will have access to open land. A local range allows customers to draw in one bay. You tell them you are going to practice drawing from concealed holster and you can open the half door of the last bay. Please note the holes in the floor and the door from people pulling the trigger too soon.
I practice drawing and racking every time I shoot, and am faster than many of my gun buddies who never get the chance to practice this vital skill. I don’t claim to be a fast draw artist. I just practice to be smooth in my draw. That’s much faster than a person without much practice hurrying their draw.
Please also remember that the Israeli carry draw is to pull the gun from the holster and rack the slide as you present it. This takes the same amount of time as drawing and presenting a chambered gun. Even with a round chambered, you have to draw and present the gun.
Let’s do a thought experiment where it’s two seconds slower the rack the slide versus what I call GLOCK-style carry. You get a shot off in one second and I need three seconds. We are both attacked with a knife at time zero. Between zero and one seconds we are both stabbed. Between one and three seconds, you get off a shot and I do not. After three seconds we both are blasting away.
I accept that there’s a window where I don’t get off a shot and someone else does during the two-second window. I accept that penalty for the extra safety Israeli carry offers.
A gun with an empty chamber CANNOT have a negligent discharge. A child can pick it up and pull the trigger and nothing will happen. You have to make the conscious decision and have the strength to rack the slide.
Negligent discharges are far more common than armed self defense. I ask TTAG how many readers have had a ND? I expect it’s a significant fraction, if not a majority. I handle my gun twice each day, when I put it on and take it off. Sometimes more if I have to enter a legal gun-free zone. Each time is a potential ND.
Let’s talk about actual gunfights and the need for one more round. I always see gun capacity measured as 8+1 or 10+1. That +1 is the round in the chamber. It’s almost never needed. As a matter of fact, reloads are almost never needed.
The best analysis of citizen armed self defense is the one by Claude Werner of five years of Armed Citizen articles in the American Rifleman magazine (you can read it here). The results are fascinating. These are citizen-only, no law enforcement shootings from 1997 to 2001.
Of 482 incidents, there were only three reloads. One of those was an escaped lion, shot with a .32 caliber and required 13 shots. The average number of shots fired was two. In 80% of the incidents, the citizen had time to take their firearm from storage, often from another room. People on the web worry about being ambushed, but you will likely be aware of an impending assault.
I don’t presume to tell others how to carry a concealed weapon. As I do the calculus, I choose the added safety of Israeli style carry and accept the penalty of one less round and the need for two hands. I think the chance of short-stroking the slide and misfeeding a round is extremely unlikely due to constant practice.
As a final note, I would like to say that the most important thing is to always have a gun with you. Know the laws in your state so you know when you cannot shoot. Practice drawing and live firing and keep your situational awareness up.
Nobody dead and we wouldn’t know that ass Zimmerman’s story.
You might as well be carrying a club, hope you’re not in a situation where you need to rack the slide and can’t.
Yep said it on purpose.
When I carry I have the gun chambered & the safety flicked on. I’m old. No apologies. Way better than yer fudd carry fella…
BS. There is no defense for Israeli carry
Everyday we read an article of leftist demanding we follow their ways. You will accept white supremacy, you will accept the 1619 teachings, and you will accept critical race theory.
They have low self esteem and need absolute compliance or their already damaged minds further warp.
Never seen an issue where the gun community acts more like the left than condition three.
An N.D. or Glock leg is more likely than a DGU. It’s a fact.
Plus almost every major study on defensive gun use has found that Americans use their firearms defensively between 500,000 and 3 million times a year. ***Most of those are without firing a single shot.***
So Doc, you do you and let them do them. Good article.
Allow me to tighten up a sentence.
* An N.D. INCLUDING Glock leg is more likely than a DGU.
“Never seen an issue where the gun community acts more like the left than condition three.”
That’s because condition three is BS. If someone is stupid enough to get Glock leg, they are too stupid to be carrying a gun, in any condition
Between the author’s assertion about TTAG readership and all the comments, we’re arguing about something that is quantifiable, but not seeking the numbers. How about TTAG runs a poll asking how many people have had an ND with a pistol/rifle? Perhaps even include a way to specify if there was an injury. Let’s see if the author’s claim of a ‘majority’ holds up.
Israeli carry works for the Israelis. Because they made sure their adversaries have been legally disarmed. Only the politically-connected Jewish person is allowed to carry a gun. Yeah that’s right I said it.
You are full of anti Jew hate. The Israelis provided over 30,000 ak47 to the pals. The US trains these terrorists with US tax dollars. The biggest current crime problem in Israel is Arab on Arab shootings. Try visiting and discover a wonderful country that has nothing to do with what you read in the news.
“that has nothing to do with what you read in the news.”
Isn’t the news media, especially at the top, dominated by Jews?
And calling the comment above hateful is hyperbolic.
I stand by my statement. No one, or group, or nation, is above criticism.
“Goldstein opened fire on a large number of Palestinian Muslims who had gathered to pray inside the Ibrahimi Mosque at the Cave of the Patriarchs compound in Hebron, West Bank. The attack left 29 people dead, several as young as twelve, and 125 wounded.[3] Goldstein was overpowered, disarmed and then beaten to death by survivors.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre
Tell that to the terrorist on Hamas while they fill you full of AK rounds. The only reason Israeli carry works for them is they train it from day one of military service. Which by the way is Mandatory at age 18 for a minimum of 2 years with potential call up for many years after that if needed. Because they are surrounded on all sides by potential enemies they are of a differnt mindset. They do what works for them. You do what works for you. I do what works for me. Personally I carry Hot and always have. Unless you Train far more than the average person. Israeli carry is not recommended simply because when millisecond matter seconds can get you killed. YMMV
Hol, the nytimes was/is? Jewish owned. Go look up how the nytimes covered up the holocaust. Truly self hating Jews. Despicable. Accusing Jews of controlling the media for their benefit is classic hatred/slander against Jews. Goldstien was a terrorist. What is the difference between Goldstein and Hamas terrorists? Every Jew condemns Goldstein. Hamas terrorists are national heros. They get paid for slay with US taxpayer dollars from the Dems. Go visit the country that brought you your cellphone technology, the Tavor, universal open m16 carry, the chip in your computer and so many other things to make your life better. Just stop hating a people that wants to be at peace in a tough neighborhood.
You know what we call people who carry without one in the chamber when they need to actually use their gun?
Dead.
I carry this way.
i hear all the same lines.
Those who understand, get it. Those who don’t live in a world where they envision wild west draw being critical.
My kids bump into, paw at, tug on, kick, etc.. my carry gun hundreds of thousands of times. They know what it is, they leave it alone. But for someone to look at a 5 year old and say “i train my kids, they know not to touch it, i could leave my pistol on the counter for weeks and it would never move” is telling himself lies.
Yes kids can be taught and be well disciplined, but they’re still kids, accidents and curiosity and peer pressure still happens.
Know how many times if had 2 seconds to draw my piece in my life? None
Know how many times I’ve handled it or the kids have tugged on it or strangers bumped into or slapped it or has been left on a dresser or bed just out of my reach which changing pants, etc… I’ve lost count….
So don’t listen to all the ones who chastise you for it. Statistically speaking they wont even be able to emotionally pull the trigger anyhow, even if they do get a faster draw.
Taking someones life requires your body to overcome a natural preservation instinct and 95% of the population freezes for far too long as their brains do the math.
As stated in the article, not every defense situation you encounter will be face to face at 3 feet. Very few may be, its also likely you will never have a situation. So the odds are in favor if Israel carry.
Also to note, I carry empty chamber when close home or where I feel very confident its an astronomical likelihood of needing it, out of the area, in town, etc… loaded.
The way I see it, if its bad enough you think that seconds going to make or break your life, don’t take your kids there.
“Know how many times if had 2 seconds to draw my piece in my life? None
Know how many times I’ve handled it or the kids have tugged on it or strangers bumped into or slapped it or has been left on a dresser or bed just out of my reach which changing pants, etc… I’ve lost count….”
So in other words, you carry an unsafe firearm that you fear may go off just by bumping it. You’ve never taught your family safety around firearms, and you store your guns unsafely. How do you know that just chambering a round won’t cause a stuck firing pin to send a round without you meaning to? Or what if you drop it in the scuffle, you’d be just fine with it going off falling from chest height and potentially killing a bystander? Or is it that you holster is a soft leather or fabric piece of crap that isn’t protecting the trigger?
The ONLY reasoning for Israeli carry is that you think your own skills are crap, your gun is crap, or the gear you carry with is crap. One of those is remedied with training, two by dropping literally $50 more dollars on a quality carry gun or holster.
None of that rambling made any sense.
You place words in my mouth I did not say. Never said I didn’t trust it, nor that bumping it would cause it. Nor did I say I didn’t teach my family the dangers.
Just simply contact with the firearm happens much more frequently with those who you DO NOT want shot, than those you do.
It is just simple math, the closer you get to the firing pin letting go, the higher the chance of an ND. Simple. Don’t over think it.
Do some people get jacked quick? yes, Does everyone? not by a long shot. It’s risk assessment.
This goes hand in hand with the argument of carrying backup ammo, how much is enough, and if its for the “what if’s” then why don’t you carry a mini gun and drive an armored truck?
Risk assessment, you have taken the time to plan at what level of ready you wish to be and stopped there. For some of us thats Israel carry, some wear body armor all day, some don’t leave their basement.
The point of the topic is to not chastise someone else for taking an extra step of caution.
For what its worth the firearm I speak of is a Glock.
Also noteworthy is my 30 years EMS I have seen more ND injuries than Defensive and you wouldn’t believe how dumb some of them are, accidents most certainly do happen regardless of the precaution taken. Unless you believe you are a perfect human being who never makes mistakes, then you’re a liar.
I feel a lot of small dick energy from you. It’s probably because you have a small dick and you’re using a gun as a replacement for the failures in your life.
Good for you…didja catch the video of the(black) 65 year old retired firedude being carjacked in Che-ca-go?!? He had had zero time to shoot at the 15 year old punk who murdered him. And he got several shots off. Homie the gangpunk had 3 fellow lowlifes accompanying his evil azz. I’ve never pulled a gun,a knife or even pepper spray on anyone. I HAVE been attacked by large black men on the EL in Chiraq. I won because I was much younger and quite strong & fearless…
And he died.
Maybe if he had been using a semi and condition three, he might not have left cover and been shot.
This is a weird world and even the best laid plans…
Israeli carry has its roots in the mismash of guns they initially had available. Without one gun to use as a standard, they needed a manual of arms that needed minimal training and worked on any gun a soldier could have be given. The technique was borrowed from the Hong Kong police who used it for the same reason. If you train with the gun you carry, you can draw and disengage the safety (if necessary) quickly and safely. If you’re wearing a gun, you don’t need to worry about a child getting it. You can build a unloading station out of a 5 gallon bucket and sand if you’re worried about discharges while handling your gun at home.
The penalty of needing two hands is greater than just needing to drop something and the longer time. That 0 time knife strike, or another injury, may disable a hand or arm and make the Israeli draw longer or not possible. If you only need one hand to draw, you can use the other for defense and trade injuries to that arm for wounds to your head and torso. Moving both arms is a greater signal that you’re taking action, and the assailant is more likely to do something in those 3 seconds. Both hands are at your waist and not protecting your head and chest.
If you have to do off body carry, you often need both hands to get the gun, it’s slow, and the chances of unauthorized access are greater, so unchambered carry could be useful there.
“…Israeli carry has its roots in the mismash of guns they initially had available. Without one gun to use as a standard, they needed a manual of arms that needed minimal training and worked on any gun a soldier could have be given….”
This is exactly why they came up with it. True history.
Saying this
“Let’s see where we can all agree.”
Then saying this:
“I don’t agree that Israeli carry is any slower than chambered carry.”
Is like dems saying they want UnItY.
Yep, I stopped reading right there. The author can defend Israeli carry if he wants, but if he denies *objective reality* it’s just a waste of my time.
If you present your gun in defense of others from cover or behind the perp, racking the slide will give away your position and intent. It’s another unlikely scenario, but it happens.
Does it matter at that point, you should be fully prepared to fire if you’re arm is out of the holster anyhow.
Them knowing you racked it might end the situation, may not, makes the point moot I believe.
After you rack the slide, you still have to get a firing grip, aim, and fire. The perp’s hands are already in position. Maybe he immediately turns and fires before you get one off. Maybe he moves out of the way and begins to fire. This article is about hypothetical situations. Maybe racking the slide won’t matter, but maybe it will. The only way the point is moot is if you’re one of those pro Israeli guys. The average carrier will never be one of those guys, not even close.
bob,
I read some of your and Holliday’s comments. I’m not judging anyone in particular for their choices, so don’t take it that way. I’m just talking generalities here. I’m here to learn, debate, and occasionally talk smack. I don’t pretend to be an expert.
TEHO.
I EDC with chamber loaded. This is how I train, and I don’t want to confuse my “muscle memory” by mixing two different carry methods. When training within less than 3 yards (all the way up to contact close), I will not likely be able to use my support hand to push away the attacker and successfully rack the slide as I draw with my firing hand.
I do not argue against Israeli carry. As long as you can effectively defend against a threat, kudos to you regardless of whether you EDC loaded or empty chamber, shoot .380 ACP or .357 Mag, stand Weaver or Isosceles, etc.
If you practice drawing and racking every time you are already doing the work which is great! But just practice drawing and keeping your finger off the tigger along the frame and only place your finger on the trigger until you are fully locked out and have an acceptable sight picture on your confirmed target. You can carry with a loaded gun safely by working that technique, best luck good article.
I don’t agree that Israeli carry is any slower than chambered carry. Most ranges near me don’t allow practicing drawing from a holster, so most people never practice this vital skill.
This is a non sequitur fallacy in reverse. Most ranges near me don’t allow practicing drawing from a holster, therefore Israeli carry isn’t slower. If people don’t practice Israeli carry, they’re going to be even slower on the draw assuming they remember to, and manage to, rack the slide under stress.
Which leads to my next point: you forgot three other flaws with the style. 1) People forget under stress. If you forget to load that round, you’ll be very disappointed if you need to pull the trigger. 2) People fumble under stress. This includes your short stroke argument, but also things like dropping it, slipping on the slide and other failure situations. 3) Sometimes people need that second hand. You could be struggling with an attacker, pushing a vulnerable person out of the way, etc. And now you have to good way to rack your slide.
A gun with an empty chamber CANNOT have a negligent discharge. A child can pick it up and pull the trigger and nothing will happen.
A gun in a safe, or under the direct control of a responsible person cannot have an ND. A child can rack a slide more easily than open a safe. Isn’t the crux of your argument that racking the slide doesn’t hinder you much? Here’s a thought experiment. Would you let a child play in a room with a gun in C3? Of course not. Would you let a child play in a room with a locked gun safe (and no other dangers)? Of course. Store the guns in safes, and this point is moot.
I handle my gun twice each day, when I put it on and take it off. … Each time is a potential ND.
Maybe you should work on your handling skills before you carry a gun. To have an ND, you’d have to stick your finger in the trigger guard and pull the trigger. With a C1 carry gun, you have to do that and disable the thumb safety (and possible grip safety), so it’s even less likely. Are you putting your finger on the trigger when you unholster? Why are you unholstering, rather than just removing the holster from your belt? Even when I carry my CZ P-10 C, there is zero chance of an ND when I take it out to maintain it, because I have a safety checklist: point the holster in a safe direction, place the finger on the side, slide the holster out, drop the magazine, and lock the slide.
It sounds like you’re just making excuses to try to justify your choice. Israeli carry feels safer. People think in both logic and emotion, so it’s fine to make decisions with a combination of both, but don’t tell us that your decisions are purely logical.
Please post here when you accidentally shoot your dick off.
Carry in a way that makes you comfortable, while minimizing recklessness. If you believe that carrying Israeli style works better for your situation, then do it. You are way better off then anybody who isn’t carrying a gun.
The firearms community has way too many people who have a lot of knowledge, but very little wisdom.
Carry how you like. Your longevity is not a concern of mine.
Cool story bro. Active Self Protection has literally dozens of examples of why empty chamber carry is a bad idea. He knows more about personal protection than you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVPiic-ELoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FXHVjXPtJk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrUXBqWZ6wk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkluQ4fG5HQ
Note that many of these aren’t “stabbing distance” shootings like you claim. Here’s the deal, you are NEVER going to be in a situation where you are ready for the fight in a self defense scenario. EVERY time you are going to be RESPONDING to a deadly threat, in most cases with the criminal already presenting deadly force towards you. So why in the hell would you make your response even SLOWER and more obvious? There are 3 reasons to Israeli carry;
1. Your training is inadequate. Maybe you’re gun handling skills aren’t safe enough to handle a loaded weapon, or you lack confidence, training can help in both cases. Or the classic “I don’t want my kid to shoot himself” argument. Well buy a safe, and store the gun inside it when you aren’t carrying numbnuts. Or a permanent solution; teach your kid proper gun safety too.
2. Your gun is unsafe. “I don’t wanna bump it and make it go off!” So, you’d be fine with potentially dropping your gun in a scuffle when it IS chambered and killing a bystander? What are you carrying in 2021 that isn’t even basically drop or knock safe? Save up $200 and you can buy a police trade in Glock or S&W or SIG that you could run over with a truck and would be safe. If the gun isn’t safe don’t carry it in the first place.
3. Your holster isn’t safe. “Something something, don’t appendix carry, something something, blow your nuts off. Something something, Uncle Cockfarts is just as good.” If you’re carrying in 2021 and the trigger of your firearm is not protected by SOME sort of ridged shell like kydex, you’re wrong. Leather wears down, fabric blows. You can order a custom cut, comfortable IWB holster that will protect your trigger from literally hundreds of manufacturers online today that make loaded chamber carry safe. And if you don’t want a belt? PHLster has the Enigma now, which is literally cheating.
Do all this, and you’ll be able to draw and defend yourself with one hand during a self defense situation, without having to drop your baby.
Does any part of your brain still function and could understand that maybe someone who has optimal training, highly reliable firearm and top of the line holster could willingly choose to carry empty without suffering from all these “setbacks” you feel everyone has?
Man, they are right, its like arguing with the leftist anti guns. You tailor your argument in your favor by creating false pretenses.
1 hand vs 2 hands. Your choice. Being attacked you are already behind the power curve.
If you are physically attacked and struggling with your attacker, a la Darren Wilson vs Michael Brown, how do you let go of your attacker with both hands in order to use both hands on your sidearm?
Real life example: two thugs attacked this guy at a gas station, with them trying to drag him out of his car, he was fortunate to be able to hold himself in the car with his weak arm long enough to draw and fire.
https://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502
That’s nice you showed a SINGLE real world example. Should we all live our lives on a SINGLE example?
How many Glock leg real life examples will you be presenting? Betting you can find more than one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANAeGk5cw2I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVPiic-ELoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FXHVjXPtJk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrUXBqWZ6wk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkluQ4fG5HQ
Here you go, there’s more examples I found in literally 3 seconds of Googling. If you’re going based on quantity of incidents;
Do you drive around with your seatbelt off because you know you’ll be able to buckle up before an accident?
Cool, Now show us the stories of Glock leg and N.D’s.
There is more than one side to a story.
Just watched your first video, it does not help your example.
He fired at two armed robbers after they were leaving.
Condition three helped him avoid a manslaughter rap from shooting them in the back.
So called Glock leg is from sub standard holsters or not paying attention when reholstering .
In addition to all the above criticisms of Israeli carry, there is one more fact I’d like to mention. No well-known firearm schools in the U.S. teach this method. My thoughts are that if you can train to achieve competency with Israeli carry you can do the same with one in the pipe. I’ve carried around children plenty of times. It’s not that hard to keep them from fiddling with your gun. And if it’s not on me then it’s locked up somewhere.
Afraid of a ND and don’t need a lot of capacity? Maybe the author should carry a revolver.
Or maybe we can pretend once again this is still America and he can carry what and how he pleases.
He can carry how ever the hell he wants, but this IS still America and we don’t have to agree with his justifications for his poor choices.
+1000
And I can call you a cocksucker. Cocksucker.
He can carry any way he pleases and you’re an @ssh0le if you think I told him he couldn’t.
Can we keep pretending this is still America long enough to freely express our opinions? If he’s going to publicly suggest this is a good idea, we’re free to critique his argument and provide counter arguments.
You’ll notice most of the negative responses are not “You’re dumb!” comments, they’re “This is a bad idea, because …” comments.
It’s not that hard to ND a revolver. It’s impossible to ND with an empty chamber. That is the author’s whole point!
Absolutely ridiculous! If you are afraid to carry the CORRECT way, in the correct manner, then you should carry a revolver. Chamber empty is fumble prone in an emergency and MORE likely to produce an accidental discharge. Gunfights are like car wrecks. They are unexpected.
“not sure chamber loaded is faster than Israeli carry’
My God has the man ever fired a gun! When you have a pit bull chewing on one arm or a robber cranking the other behind your back try to rack that pistol.
“Chamber empty is fumble prone in an emergency and MORE likely to produce an accidental discharge.”
Really? Cite your research on this wildly emotional claim.
I can imagine more likely to AD in an emergency while hurrying to chamber a round, but much much less likely to ND in regular day to day life with no round ever chambered.
I think the safest all around answer is to never withdraw it from the holster unless you’re cleaning/maintaining it or practicing with it. If pulling it out and messing with it is part of your regular day, you might be more likely to have an ND than to use it in self defense.
Really?
I think regularly drawing/handling/cleaning your firearm is PART of your training, and if done correctly, makes an ND less likely – muscle memory is a thing. But, yes, per my comment, that is MY preference, based on MY training and experience. If you would not handle your carry weapon because you fear a ND? I would offer, for your consideration, that your lack of confidence in your training and handling skills is lacking. If that is a valid concern, I would further suggest that more training MIGHT help.
But, YMMV.
You dont know me but I dont make claims, I state facts.
Years ago shotgun news and editor hunnicutt did this type of test.
They found many shooters fumbled on racking the slide versus chamber loaded and go- it only makes sense. Also, almost certainly, Melvin Purvis did not commit suicide but fumbled the action of his 1911- many more in police service, when loading the gun. Too many shooters do not properly and energetically load the gun during training classes as well, they pussy foot around rather than truly racking the slide
“Fingers turning into flippers” is a well-known physiological response to a massive adrenaline dump into the human bloodstream….
“Please also remember that the Israeli carry draw is to pull the gun from the holster and rack the slide as you present it. This takes the same amount of time as drawing and presenting a chambered gun.”
That assumes you will have a free hand available to cycle the weapon.
If you are trying to keep an attacker off of you with one hand, you have no hand to work the action.
I use a kind of modified Israeli carry, a DA/SA weapon with one in the pipe, and the hammer down. The long, heavy trigger of DA is my safety for appendix carry…
Or the example he used (I’ve personally been there) of carrying while you have a baby in your other arm. He LITERALLY said it was OK to drop the baby, because HE’S seen lots of kids dropped who weren’t hurt. Sorry, I am NOT dropping my kid to deploy my gun. NOT HAPPENING.
If he’s OK with it, more power to him, but it doesn’t work for me. Also your example, you simply cannot predict how a defensive use situation will “present”. You may not have a free hand to “draw and rack” for a variety of reasons.
For a while, when I was doing shoulder holster carry, I switched from a 1911 (where I carried “cocked and locked”) to a Beretta M9 (where I adopted your approach – I can imagine, but can’t reproduce in the real world, a draw that would accomplish the DA firing of a M9). But, again, it’s individual preference/experience/training.
As long as I’m comfortable with my carry arrangement, it’s MY BUSINESS – if I ASK your opinion, please give it. If I don’t, please don’t.
rami= half cock. that is all.
Author: You do you. Carry with an empty magazine, if you like. Justify it any way you want. Maybe you’ll be just fine. I hope so.
But this is just bad advise to give to someone else. If you try to convince someone to carry empty-chamber, please also tell them “almost everyone else in the world, including every expert, disagrees with me.” and “This is only useful in any way if you have no trigger discipline, in which case you should rethink carrying in the first place.”
I Israeli carry at times. I have specific reasons that I do this. I am transitioning someone else to be comfortable and that is the reason.
Yes, I was dropped as a child, often on my head. Why else would I wanted to be an Airborne Soldier? If you had LTC Leonard B Scott as your commander in jump school you will understand the reference.
I know some are against it, but that fine for you and how I choose to carry is my business. Carry as you want. I won’t argue against your method unless it us unsafe.
This is why revolvers still sell.
Safer than any striker fired pistol.
No confusion about loaded chambers, safeties, magazines.
Just a long DA pull.
And the suggestion for a DA/SA auto also applies, you do get quicker reloads with an auto but you gain several levels of complexity that can mean failure for an untrained operator.
First time for everything, you feeling ok miner? That post made sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE-13u-NfVo
Wow the haters are out in force today. I say if the doctors wants to carry isreali style then do so. If you consistently train to rack the slide when you draw then that will be what the body does under stress. The people who make the argument about forgetting under stress are also the ones who advocate carrying cocked and locked. If you can remember to thumb off a safety, which is a fine motor skill, then you should easily be able to handle a gross motor skill like grasping and racking a slide. Besides that is what dry firing is for. Get yourself some dummy ammo and then practice, practice, practice.
This is a person who works with children who are not related to him/her all the time and does not want to risk an accidental injury. Children are curious and there little fingers can get into places that adult fingers can’t. As the old saying goes “better safe than sorry”. Doc keep doing whatever you feel comfortable doing.
This is why I carry a revolver most of the time. The 11 lb trigger pull, easily manageable with practice, is my safety. Likewise, I’ve practiced pulling back the hammer and drawing at the same time so much it is muscle memory, and it only requires one hand. With the average number of shots in an encounter being 2, one .357 magnum within 5 feet should settle the dispute.
I only carry a semi-auto (a Glock 32) when I’m visiting the closest large city (650,000+ population), and I carry with one in the chamber. I practice with the Glock more often than I visit.
“Mans gotta know his limitations”
I guess it’s better than not carrying but that’s bout all I can say for it
I always enjoy “technique” or gear choice discussions – because you inevitably get the “experts” on both sides speaking “ex cathedra”, and giving their personal preferences, experiences, etc. as “fact”. Other than choice of birth control, I can think of few decisions that are more personal than what/how to carry.
Since each person, and each person’s, abilities and experience and conditions are different, there “ain’t no setch thing” as a “right” way to carry. I have preferences and opinions – but we all know about opinions and @$$holes. My son is a certified RSO, pistol trainer, and firearm safety trainer who is a passionate advocate of appendix carry – I can’t wrap my mind around my carry gun pointing at my junk all day.
If “Israeli carry” works for the author, then good for him. He has at least (IMHO) correctly identified the issues with Israeli carry, and made decisions on those issues based on his preferences and experience, and his expectation about what are his likely circumstances of defensive use of his handgun. I disagree with many of those, but . . . I tend to mind my own business. If someone ASKS me to express my recommendation or give advice, I do . . . but I emphasize that this is what I have chosen, for me (and then explain why).
I don’t “Mexican carry”, I don’t “Israeli carry”, or many other things. OTOH, because I spent years going to work in business suits, I carried in a shoulder holster for years, and I became comfortable with that carry (yes, I practiced with it, regularly) – and I recognize all the drawbacks of shoulder holster carry. Since I’m retired and rarely wear suits anymore, I don’t shoulder holster carry, anymore. But while I did, it worked for me.
I’d prefer a calm, open-minded discussion of RELATIVE positive and negative aspects of various choices than proselytizing. I PERSONALLY think Israeli carry is stupid, and I’d never do it, just like I’d never do Mexican carry (except sometimes to carry a backup) – but that’s me. What you do is your own damn business.
None of what was said in favor of “Israeli carry” makes any sense in the real world.
I see that we have a lot of TactiCoolFools lambasting the author. I don’t Israeli carry myself. However; my preference for Third Generation Smith and Wesson semiautomatic pistols provokes similarly disparaging remarks. IMHO, carrying with a round in the chamber but with the safety ON offers the same safety enhancement as carrying with an empty chamber without the disadvantages of having to cycle the slide. I also appreciate the added security of a magazine disconnect safety. The double action on the first shot isn’t a problem because your assailant is already close or you have time and distance to cock the hammer.
I will not carry many other semiautomatic pistols with a round in the chamber and the safety on because the safety mechanism on many other pistols is far less reliable than the Smith and Wesson safety. Not only are other safety systems inherently more prone to mechanical failure, they can be inadvertantly be moved to the OFF position far to easily.
Ive also noticed a lot of people Israel carry for the same reason I do which is extra caution around kids.
It’s worth noting for those discussing about using a heavy revolver pull as a safety.
Children who have ND’s generally shoot another kid or inanimate object with semi’s, with revolvers however they lack the strength in their fingers to use the firearm properly and resort to using both thumbs by turning the revolver around and squeezing it.
It’s not about whats better to do in the rare half second life saving moment.
It’s about what you have to live with in what happens during the other 99.9999% of your life.
I also like the fastening your seatbelt before a crash idea. I mean, you could. But my college thesis was on how seatbelts save your life 50% of the time, as they have just as much of a chance of killing your as it does saving you because the mechanism of injury can be so random.
The same applies here, the defensive state you may be in is so random that you cannot possibly be correct in saying one way or the other is an absolute must.
You can however make a claim one is more ready than other, but it is not an end. A vest would be better, a backup gun would be better, extra mags would be better, etc….
It’s simply a level of defense you’re comfortable with.
I don’t hate you for carrying with an empty chamber. If I may suggest other ways to handicap yourself: walk around staring at your phone, double points for using earphones. Flipflops instead of good shoes and mexican carry instead of a quality holster.
You do you. Me do me. That way everyone is happy, and no idiotic arguments are started. Deal?
I have to disagree with that claim on its face.
Much more importantly, I would modify the underlying thought behind that claim. Are negligent discharges with a concealed carry handgun which result in serious injury/death more common than self-defense events with a handgun where the defender is immediately engaged/entangled with the attacker with one hand before even having a chance to draw?
I’m all for carrying what works for you. For me anything that involves more than unholster point and pull is over complicating a stressful situation. It’s like telling me you like to pull off the terminals off your car battery each time you put it park. Doesn’t make sense to me.
it would if you drove my van.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but consider these thoughts: If you in any way you change the way you handle a gun because it is in condition 3 vs round chambered, you are setting yourself up for failing to follow rule #1 – watch the muzzle and where it is pointed, as well as #2 – all guns are always loaded (so treat them as such). kids bumping your firearm or reaching around and hugging you from the side or whatever – one should immediately but kindly clear them away from the extended muzzle line. Knowing it is in C3 and letting them linger there is setting oneself up for a disaster the one time in a thousand that somehow the round got chambered. It is a habit thing. I do like the idea of one extra step to make a firearm ready to fire such that if you ever lose control of your firearm in a tussle or something, you have a second or two to react before the other person figures out how to work the safety. I agree that with any reasonable amount of practice a safety can be flicked off while presenting the firearm with no measurable time penalty. But I like my extra step to work one handed.
Better than nothing I suppose.
But not a good choice. Glad you note the limitations.
I suggest getting a good revolver.
I think there’s a simple solution for this argument. It’s all well and good to say something “works for me,” it’s another thing to test it out. Barring a real world incident, that generally means pressure testing. Therefore, let the OP sign up for a class with sim rounds, (shivworks would be preferable, but really any FOF class will work,) and take a video of his evos. That way there’s no grandstanding, there’s no “tacticool” demands, there’s cold hard data of your strengths and limitations. Otherwise you’re just projecting what Larry Correia calls “My Gunfight.
You carry chambered or not as you like, I just do not care.
But carrying a modern firearm with an empty chamber is just plain dumb. Also, kinda’ stupid.
Israeli Carry came out of the motley collection of beat up, mixed up arms the IDF got its hands on when the country was new. Whether it was a good idea then or not, that was some 70 plus years ago. Times change. The idea is obsolete.
And, again, kinda’ stupid.
Yet nowhere near as dumb as voting for Biden and Harris and giving money to the Lincoln Project.
Also not kinda’ stupid, immensely stupid.
Fuck you and the Trumpass you rode in on.
Hey, if Trumpass doesn’t run in 2024, you could always write in Putin!
And there it is in case anyone was wondering why enuf keeps calling Trump a traitor. He actually believed, and apparently still believes, the Russian Collusion Lie. Considering that he also believed the Lincoln Project was full of concerned conservatives and Republicans, I’m guessing he’s an avid watcher of MSNBC.
I find it funny how Condition 3 inspires such passion from the community but curiously there is no similar commentary emerging to critique pump action shotguns vs semi auto, folding knives vs fixed blade, etc. Also missing from most Condition 3 discussions is the acknowledgement of the widespread prevalence of close range combatives training (KravMaga, et al) among the Israeli user base.
Condition 3 is a terrible idea if you have minimal experience with modern martial arts systems and do not have a force continuum protocol…ie, clarity of mind and/or training to decide whether to elbow someone in the face, restrain them, stab them, or shoot them should a dangerous situation arise. Israeli carry is part of a broader, holistic philosophy of violence that includes firearms on the menu rather than relying on them exclusively. You can easily find training videos of IDF recruits beating each other up with empty rifles, sticks, chairs, helmets, whatever; if they get jumped by some kid in the West Bank from behind, the quickest immediate response would be to smash them with a helmet or with a rifle before shooting into a crowded area. Add in some American insight like the Tueller Drill, 21 ft rule, etc and you get to a place where many folks from both camps can acknowledge that a stomp kick, defensive sprawl, or chin jab might be the best immediate choice rather than a pistol draw given the circumstances.
In any event, I would award the advantage in any altercation to the participant most acclimated to violence and disarray. If you’re not that guy, Condition 1 is definitely the right answer as you are already at a disadvantage. If you are that guy, then you have choices. Why would you choose Condition 3 then? Perhaps it is the same reason you may have chosen a Hi Power or old school S&W auto that had a magazine “safety”; ignoring the litany of commentary on that one feature, the point is that there is a use case for some people to have a firearm that is one NON OBVIOUS step away from being “live” in the fight…you get jumped from behind, you lose control of your piece (the kydex retention wasnt strong enough!), is the assailant going to immediately start racking away? If he doesn’t, you just bought back precious time.
In any case, real training across a variety of circumstances is the right answer. The rationale in this article isn’t compelling to me, but Condition 3 is not universally worthless.
You all sure wasted a lot of time concerning a non issue. No serious shooter thinks about this. About next a story on the .22 Magnum for defense, using blanks for home defense, birdshot is good as birdshot, something like that? Makes as much sense.
I’m guessing that the new owners track the engagement numbers and judge TTAG by them. Good work Dan.
Hey, if you want to carry in a manner that requires more motor movements/time, and forces your gun to go through the biggest area where malfunctions occur (the racking of the slide to chamber a round) because it makes you sleep better, you do you. I will think you are making a dumb decision, but don’t let it stop you!
You might as well be carrying a club…..
Carry your firearm in any readiness condition you want.
I dont care how the Israelis do it, because I dont think their the “gold standard ” of self defense.
“I don’t agree that Israeli carry is any slower than chambered carry. Most ranges near me don’t allow practicing drawing from a holster, so most people never practice this vital skill.”
So you’re saying that because drawing is not universally practiced it’s OK to carry with an empty chamber. This is completely and totally unrelated to the issue.
“Please also remember that the Israeli carry draw is to pull the gun from the holster and rack the slide as you present it. This takes the same amount of time as drawing and presenting a chambered gun. Even with a round chambered, you have to draw and present the gun.”
Wrong. Racking the slide is an *additional movement* which distracts from the simpler “draw and present”. As for your plain and unsupported by any evidence assertion that it takes the “same amount of time”, I’d like to see actual tests conducted by a variety of individuals before accepting that assertion.
“I accept that there’s a window where I don’t get off a shot and someone else does during the two-second window. I accept that penalty for the extra safety Israeli carry offers.”
So much for “it takes the same amount of time.” Self-contradictory much?
Negligent discharges? You’re prepared to accept that most people don’t practice draws (but they should), but you don’t mind if they don’t practice to avoid negligent discharges so as to justify you preferred method of carry?
“That +1 is the round in the chamber. It’s almost never needed. As a matter of fact, reloads are almost never needed.”
Irrelevant to the issue being discussed which is time to discharge from a holstered draw. But once again, despite the alleged fact that reloads are never needed, when they *are* needed, they should be available. Carrying a firearm *at all* is almost “never needed” – which is why only 5% or so of the population do so. You don’t make those kinds of assumptions and ignore outlier events when discussing personal security because the consequences of being wrong are too serious.
The point someone above made about close quarter incidents where a free hand is needed to engage an attacker also mitigates against requiring two hands to be engaged in the draw (although personally I think if an attacker is that close, forget the gun and engage hand-to-hand, assuming one has some training in that.)
All in all, the bottom line for those carrying with an empty chamber is simply fear: they’re afraid of a negligent discharge because they haven’t trained enough to be confident of not having one. If that’s the case, say so and forget all the nuanced bullcrap arguments. Weapons should be carried commensurate with the level of training of the carrier. An argument might be made that if one is that afraid of a negligent discharge, perhaps they shouldn’t be carrying a firearm in public.
“By Doc Duracoat
I’m amazed by how much hate I get when I admit to carrying my concealed weapon “Israeli style” with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber. Any safety, if present, is set to the fire position.”
I don’t hate ya Doc. I just read what you write and cannot believe you would put forth such drivel.
Everybody else has pretty well covered what you are doing wrong and why, hope you were taking notes.
So, BYE!
Condition 3 is not my thing, but “you do you”, as the kids say. IMHO, the only benchmarks for whether a carrying system is right or wrong are A) are you comfortable with it? and B) are you honestly assessing the strengths and weaknesses of what that method offers (and do you train/plan for those drawbacks)?
I got no problem with Israeli carry. Depending on the gun, i have carried that way as well. Train to carry Israeli and, as with any other carry style, the odds are with you.
Bluntly, ‘Israeli Carry’ is an archaic workaround born of the Israeli practice, enforced by obvious logistical problems, of providing its agents with varying types of handguns, including badly-outmoded single-action semi-auto pistols that lacked absolute firing-pin-blocking safety mechanisms. As these early, now-outmoded pistols were completely unsafe to carry with a chambered round, it made perfect sense to carry them with empty chambers.
Modern, or at least properly-designed, handguns with positive firing-pin lockers or blockers, plus other positive safety mechanisms such as ‘safe-action’ designs wherein the firing pin or striker is not even energized until the trigger is fully pulled to the rear, do NOT need this primitive method of carrying.
What a load of fudd crap.
Absolute nonsense. If one of your arguments is that most civilian firearm defenses don’t require any shots to be fired. Why not take it a step further and carry an empty gun. Statistical you won’t need to shoot any way…. From personal experience I’ve drawn my duty gun hundreds of times and never once did I think. I really wish I had to chamber a round right now. Things happen in a heartbeat. You have to stay ready, so you don’t have to get ready.
Brilliant argument Bob (Sarc), comparing your “duty gun” which is likely in a level 4 retention holster while on duty, in an uniform, while under the protection of your department, the state, federal, and qualified immunity. While answering potentially violent 911 calls.
Versus a conceal carried holder playing with his kids in his own house or working as a pediatric anesthesiologist?
Do you just think, maybe, just maybe Bob, there is a difference in those two scenarios?
You can call it whatever you like…Condition 1, 2, or 3. You can worry about negligent discharges and glockleg. You can even decide to leave your carry gun at home.
The whole point in carrying a firearm in the first place is for dealing with threats that you never know might come your way at any given moment in life. Not having one chambered increases your likelihood of losing the fight. If your using a type of gun that has a safety that can be easily switched on and off with your dominant hand only, I can kinda understand having it on. But any gun being carried should be something you can trust. if you can’t trust it to not go off without your finger on the trigger then it’s better off staying in the safe. Your probably better off getting rid of it. If you can’t trust yourself to not pull the trigger then you probably shouldn’t carry one. Wether it’s hot or not.
NOTHING should ever discharge unless you intentionally pull the trigger.
“NOTHING should ever discharge”
Well that’s nice, glad you just made ND’s a thing of the past.
While you are proclamating how about making car accidents a thing of the past as well?
Are you really going to make excuses for negligent discharges?
That’s the beautiful thing about our freedoms. We can practice a different philosophy than others, even if it is idiotic like Israeli carry…
How in the love of all that’s holy was this hot garbage written in 2021? In what fevered dream do you seriously imagine an assailant stabbing you in less than 1 second then standing there doing nothing for the next 2 seconds while you get your gun out and rack it? How did you give that example, acknowledging that a chambered shooter could probably get a round off 2 seconds before you did, but fail to imagine that your assailant could be armed with, oh I don’t know… a chambered gun and be shooting you that whole time (and I’d wager, if you weren’t dead, you might have *slightly* more trouble chambering your gun while shot so it might take a little longer than 3 seconds). How, in 2021, do you write an article with such strawman logic as to label your detractors similar to gun control lobbyists because they don’t all agree that having a gun automatically means allowing uncontrolled access and perpetual incompetence while handling it? If anything, I’d compare your thinking about what’s possible regarding safety and competence to a nanny-state lawyer who doesn’t think anyone could possibly be smarter than him. How did you seriously mention that you think you can rack a slide under pressure (while admitting that you haven’t actually tried it under even minor pressure using a timer at your one range that sometimes allows it) when there are COUNTLESS examples available to you on the internet and in various classes of why that doesn’t actually work outside of fantasies wherein your assailant stops 10 yards away and challenges you to a knife fight (see ECQC, Active Self Protection, et. al.). Please for the love of all that’s holy go take a course that involves force-on-force with SIMS or Airsoft against a determined opponent and stop spreading disinformation when you’ve clearly not had enough fights to know what you’re talking about. Thanks.
Let me give you some background for what I am about to say, because I fully expect that some of you are going to get your feelings hurt and your panties in a tight little wad. To that I say, deal with it. Fifty years ago, I joined the Army for a number of reasons, one of which was I felt it was my duty as a patriotic American citizen to do such a thing. I also needed that to help me grow up, I just didn’t know how much growing up I needed that at the time. I went through medic training, did rather well and was selected for some advanced medic training, another year’s worth. To all you vets, than you for your service.
I ended up overseas as a medic on a team that was trained to do Search and Rescue and we also did some Recon missions. Due to my extended training, I was not supposed to be on a team such as that, my position was supposed to keep me at battalion level, but we were short more than one man when the call came for a medic to go into the field (medics have a poor attrition rate, or at least then they did.) I could have refused to go as in “That’s not my job!” and they would have had to keep me in the Aid Station.
Instead, I realized that they really needed a medic and I had earned my Expert Field Medic Badge, (Not an easy thing to do, and when people say they earned it, they did.) so I volunteered to go. Contrary to what many people believe, all medics in the military are issued weapons, the exception to this rule was in the case of a Conscientious Objector who had been drafted and we had no such individuals in our unit at all. The more senior medics in that unit were issued 1911’s, junior medics (the newbies, I thought of several other terms we used but I will keep this family friendly) were issued M-16’s. Since I was the most senior medic because of my training on my arrival, I was issued a 1911 as my sidearm.
My view of things changed a great deal as I spent time slogging out in the boonies, on missions such as looking for downed aircraft and finding the pilot before anyone else did and invited us to a party we did not want to go to. When we did Recon, we would go out in the boonies for a week at a time, keeping a low profile to avoid any of those parties I mentioned. We declined as many invites as we could, low profile, not the partying types, unless it was a surprise party, (never a good thing!). It was only good if we were hosting the surprise.
I have been shot at, and I have drawn my weapon more than one time in order to engage a living target. That is all I will say about that. When I came home, let’s say I was a bit damaged, and still have some scars that are unseen. There is something about picking up a leg off the ground that a few minutes before was attached to someone you know, or seeing someone with their face and most of their head gone. As I said, I have more scars you cannot see..
Enough about me, back to my point; when I read some of the comments here, I am reminded of a fear we had back then, the fear elicited by the very cherry 2 LT types who have studied and practiced and know everything there is to know about engaging another person with a weapon, except what it is really like. Those people cause no small amount of fear in me, and they should do the same in you, too.
It seems the most vocal, most critical voices aimed at the author, have never been in a real gunfight, just like a brand new, wet-behind-the-ears, CHERRY 2nd Lieutenant that has a lot of book knowledge but has never been in the field where there were people who might take exception to their presence and attempt remedy that. Cherry is not a compliment here, but it describes someone who although they might mean well, and actually know a little bit, they do NOT know what it is like to be shot at or to draw a weapon with the intent of actually shooting another human being. Those cherry 2LT’s can get other people killed if they don’t look at their NCO’s who have spent time in the field and ask for guidance. And I see a lot of that cherry 2 LT mindset here.
I will say this as gently as possible, IF you have never been there, you have no idea what you are talking about, (a certain 4 letter acronym comes to mind, but, as I said, I will keep this family friendly) and have broadcast their ignorance. There are some who have basically said the vets who have commented on this subject just don’t understand what it is like. I don’t care how many movies or television shows about war and combat, even gunfights not in a war, you have seen, the real thing is nothing like that. Nothing on a screen can convey anything remotely like the emotions that happen in that situation. And I have seen some of the movies, and most of them took me several days to watch as there were many times I had to hit pause and go do something else to regain my composure. There are a number of films that I have not seen and, to tell the truth, I don’t know if I will put myself through that.
What I am trying to say is if you have never been there, you will never understand. All of you condescending individuals who have denigrated the author, and others, owe them an apology. I don’t expect you to see that because you obviously know more than those who have actually been there, done that. You are just like the freshly scrubbed cherry 2 LT that knows everything, not knowing how much you don’t know.
If and when you ever lose your cherry, it will not be as you imagine it to be. The first time you draw a weapon, your sympathetic nervous system kicks in, you develop tunnel vision, your weapon will rise up and down with each breath or if you hold your breath, that happens a lot, it will move with each heartbeat. You may or may not be aware of noise around you, you may or may not be aware of rising nausea or that you possibly wet your pants or soiled yourself. It is possible that when it is all over, you will throw your toenails up. There will be things about the event that you may not remember until days later. You may find that you did things that you do not ever remember doing nor will you ever remember what really happened. If there is security cam video, it may show you the exact opposite of what you thought happened. You may struggle with dreams, which may or may not be directly related to the event, or, God forbid, they may be worse than the actual event. For me, some of those lasted for years after I got out.
So, what I want to know is if you have never been in the situation, what gives you the right, knowledge, or experience to tell other people what they should do in a situation that may not come and you have no experience in, either? There are reasons some people carry Israeli. Most of what those of you think you know about it is wrong. Many who carry Israeli were taught to do that in case their weapon was taken away, it gave them a chance to not get killed by their own weapon.
The loudest sound in that situation is a hammer dropping on an empty chamber and that gives the would be victim a chance to survive, one that a chambered round does not. I have known people who were killed when they were ambushed, overpowered, and killed with their own weapon. Video surveillance in some cases showed they never had a chance to defend themselves. Don’t say it cannot happen to you, I mean, if saying it won’t happen, makes it so, instead of preparing for the time that you need a gun to defend yourself, just say it won’t happen and you won’t need your weapon. You do not know what will arise or from where it will come. Almost everyone killed in a car crash had no idea they were going to die. Many people who have died from random violence had nothing to indicated what was going to happen.
It is good to be prepared, but it is the stuff you cannot predict or prepare for that will kill you. I am reminded of Murphy’s Rules of combat; some of them are as follows:
1. No plan survives the initial contact intact. 2. Perfect plans aren’t. 3. Anything you can do can get you shot, including doing nothing. And the last one I will share is definitely not least, 4. If it’s stupid but works, it’s not stupid.
Now, if there are any of you who were offended by any of this, that means I was speaking to you and you don’t like being called out and exposed. Sorry about that, too bad, so sad. I am just a worn out, 70 year old Army vet who felt the need to speak my mind.
If you understand the situation in Israel in 1948 you will understand why the Israelis started using chamber empty safety off carry.
They had a defensive force (hard to call it an army) made up of death camp survivors, refugees, intellectuals, and others who had never even held a pistol. Crates stuffed with thousands of pistols of every make, model, and condition with an astonishing array of safeties functioning in a myriad of manners. AND zero time to educate groups of men on operation of their pistols.
ALL pistols have one functional similarity. FIRMLY insert magazine in gun butt, smack it in place for carry. To use, pull slide all the way back and let go. Chamber is loaded so point sights and pull trigger. ALL SAME, SAME.
NO NEED to spend individual time training on all various safety mechanisms. Rack the slide on your pistol, rack the slide on a battlefield pickup pistol, rack the slide, rack, rack, rack.
ONE MINUTE TRAINING SESSION IS COMPLETED IN 60 SECONDS. On the bus and off to combat.
No hate email from me. It’s your life. Defend it as you see fit. Just so long as I’m not required to think the same way, we’ll get along fine.
Thanks for the link to The Thinking Gunfighter. An excellent source……..and way of thought.
Israeli Carry:
That’s what I do……but I also use Cooper’s color coded situational guide.
Until it gets to Orange (most of the time, in my comparatively law-abiding world), I keep my chamber empty (1911 .45ACP). If the situation deteriorates I then Cock-and-Lock. It may even get tense enough to draw my weapon.
It does mean that my safety depends on my situational awareness but that’s a fair price to pay for enhanced general safety. I lead a very active and rowdy lifestyle and don’t like the idea of a live round so exposed all the time.
Everyone will have a unique situation and probably choose an individual, and probably equally valid, system.
I read people’s comments here saying that if you have a negligent discharge you’re too stupid to be carrying a gun or shouldn’t carry one in the first place. Let’s not forget that all of us are human, prone to mistakes, failures and errors in judgement.
Humans get tired, have disputes and fights and sometimes have clouded judgement. Oftentimes we have a bias that we are not prone to failure. If anyone wishes to carry with a round in the chamber that’s there prerogative and they’re welcome to do so.
However, negligent discharges DO happen to responsible gun owners. As much as we would like to think that we will never make a mistake in carrying or handling a gun, that’s not the case. Anyone is liable to getting distracted, making a simple error, being forgetful, tired or having clouded judgement. Oftentimes it is in these moments when an accident happens. You can go 95% of your life following safe gun rules but it only takes one moment to mess up, and with a gun that error can cost you a limb or even yours or your friends’ life.
Unfortunately we aren’t computers and can’t trust that we will never make a mistake. Let’s not attack or deride people for wanting to ensure that they cannot be the victim of their own negligent discharge. Yes, it would be their fault if they were the victim of their own actions, however I think anyone could potentially make that mistake given the right (wrong) circumstances.
I agree with the author 100%. If you carry a gun as a last resort self defense weapon as I do, why would you endanger yourself and every other person around you with a round ready to discharge the second you get the gun out of your holster or quite often, before that happens?
Two questions to ask yourself:
1. How many gunfights have you been in in your lifetime?
2. What percentage of time that you carry a chambered gun has it been pointed at yourself or others around you?
If your answer to Question 1 is zero and your answer to Question 2 is 100%, why would you carry your loaded gun chambered? I refuse to be “that idiot” who shoots himself, an innocent bystander or a family member “accidentally”. I definitely don’t want to be the guy who’s kid grabs his gun, pulls the trigger and shoots a family member or stranger.
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