In Defense of . . . SWAT

1. I always support LEO’s because these people have a very difficult job and the majority do their very best to help everyone. Now there will always be a few bad apples out of the bunch, but that’s true in every profession.

   • But not every profession has the full power of the state behind them to ruin, or even end, a person’s life.

     • With impunity.

       • Exactly

2. It might be because of stories like this.

   http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/hampton/man-shot-by-police-was-heavily-armed

   Personally I don’t think the police are bad, but they are called to enforce bad laws and they use bad methods to do so.

3. I recently caught some flak from a friend on Facebook when I “liked” a few local law enforcement departments. I was unapologetic. LE has a hard job, and it’s not getting any easier. I give them all the respect I can.

   I’ve got friends and family that are cops. I know first hand that they are human and, like all of us, they’re going to make mistakes from time to time. But they’ve got a lot of responsibility: the safety of individuals and the day-to-day enforcement of the rules that govern a society.

   They’re in an unenviable position. The perps don’t like them and many civilians are losing their respect (blame whatever you’d like: music, games, movies). Meanwhile the bad guys are getting badder and the budgets aren’t getting bigger.

   On the gun control side things are no better for them. I attribute some of the anti-LE posts as a reaction to gun-grabbers who say that only LE should have firearms. There is a need to emphasize that LE isn’t perfect and that absolute reliance on fallible third parties for our own well being is a mistake.

4. They just need better guidelines, such as proof of surveillance on a home they plan to raid-save an active shooter call. I’m all for the law-I was an academy class leader and honor graduate, but I also have seen a lot of bad and improper behavior-all the way up to the sheriff. Political desk jockeys work their way up the ranks, while the best officers get stuck in the field. Rejects get jobs because they’re the drunk chaplain’s nephew, that kind of crap. Dealing with the suspects is easier than dealing with the chain of command. I had a lieutenant ride me all the time because he felt my military experience was a threat to him, of me getting promoted over him one day. Some times officers dealing with all this crap take it out on the populace. I didn’t but I knew officers who did.

   • I’ll put it this way, my right forearm has a tattoo: Veritas Aequitas (truth and justice, ala Boondock Saints). My left forearm has the 1* shield-(one ass to risk) and “God forgives…I don’t.”

5. Don’t forget about the house that was raided because of questionable info on student loan forms.

6. Nothing said in this post addresses any of the points made in the original post.

   I don’t think anyone here has advocated disbanding SWAT teams. But does every small town in America really need them? Do we really need to be tossing flashbangs through windows while doing no-knock raids on people suspected of smoking pot?

   How many West Hollywood type shootouts have there been? Now contrast that with the number of wrong address raids where SWAT teams have destroyed personal property, killed pets, injured and even killed human beings. And for what? To fight a staggeringly wrongheaded war on drugs that does nothing except enrich the drug dealers and the LE agencies that fight them.

   And don’t even get me started on the civil forfeiture laws SWAT teams are instrumental in enforcing. Head over to Reason magazine for coverage of the subject if you’re interested, or if you feel like being outraged.

   No one is saying all cops are bad (and that ad hominem about us being hippies is really out of line). But SWAT teams are too prolific and they’re used way too casually for a nation that’s supposed to be free.

7. You berate the people here, call them hippies, then, paragraphs later, you say no-knock warrants shouldn’t be used on “simple” warrants. But that’s apparently what has been going on and making big waves in the news and I’d say is a huge reason why people are so upset at the “militarization” of law enforcement.

   All anyone has to do is go read some cop forums to see why “civilians” could develop or solidify a negative opinion of LE. Particularly when seeing the cowboy attitudes and civil rights bending and breaking from LE in liberal states.

   I was reading an open carry thread the other day on a LE forum, and one of the few sane-sounding and civil rights-protecting LEOs on there was a sheriff who was arguing with the cowboys. All the LEOs from California and similar areas looked to have no problem with violating rights and just plain treating “civilians” like lesser humans who should just shut up and do what they’re told.

   I’ve read reports from people near my own area who have talked to LE about open and concealed carry recently, and the LEO told them straight-out what bs law he would twist so he could have an excuse to arrest or fine the person for carrying. Speaking of, how about that “Madison Five,” and how about the cops and that open-carry guy in Philly? Yeah.

   Add to that a failed war on drugs which is used as an excuse to crash through front doors at 4 a.m. and kill dogs and people and just plain shoot up the place, (70 rounds shot at one guy? Really?), plus what looks like cover-ups to hide F-ups, and it’s no surprise if people start “sounding like hippies.”

8. The problem with law enforcement is what happens after things go wrong. They are almost invariably held to a lower standard rather than a higher one.

9. I’m not really concerned with the type of personal firepower they carry – AR’s or whatever – but I’m very concerned about the mindset they employ.

   Police are not the military. They are not an occupying military force. They are civil servants. Members of the public are not ‘civilians,’ we’re citizens.

   When police start thinking like Navy SEALs and carrying out assault plans on private citizens using grenades, tanks, and helicopters we’ve got a real problem.

   • Abunai, +1 on that

   • +1. Traditionally, law enforcement tends to attract a certain personality type to its ranks. We all know what I am talking about.

     This mentality is changing as police agencies become more professional and cops become better educated, but not fast enough for me.

     I admit it: I have a bad attitude about cops based on my experiences. I recognize that not all cops are punks, thieves, and thugs. Just the ones I usually deal with, apparently.

10. I read this site every now and again but have never commented before. I work in LE in a small town in the midwest. I understand some of the seperation, we are teaching LE to have more of a warrior mindset as a tactic to stay aware, stay safe, and go home at the end of a shift. Is it perfect? I don’t know but times are changing, you have 4 officers murdered in cold blood as they sit in a coffee shop. In the line of duty deaths are up and for the first time, in the years recent past gunshots are killing more cops then traffic crashes. The “us them” is what is hurting both sides. You have cops who see everyone as a threat, and citizens who say “you are not here to help me,” or “you’re a threat to me.” Those last two were comments from recent posts on this site. I understand comments like that but I disagree. When your house has been broken into, I’m sure gonna do my best to catch who did it. When your child is molested I’m gonna do everything I can to make a solid case to lock the creep up. When people are speeding down your street where your kids play I’ll watch traffic in your neighborhood. Sounds like ways I can “help” to me.

    I’ll admit my area is great, we have a good PD and great citizens that support us and work with us. Calling in suspicious activity, being good witnesses, etc. But it goes both ways, if we make a mistake we are transparent about it. I live in the community I serve, I am a part of the community and care for are area, like many of my partners.

    As far as why do PDs need rifles, military gear, etc ,etc. I am a big fan of the shotgun but it has its limitations, especially now with how things have changed. For example if there were a threat in a school or mall, do want me using a shotgun with a slug to engage a threat a hundred yards away or an accurate rifle with a optical sight? Or in an apartment building let say, do you know that a .223 round will actually penetrate less layers of sheeterock then a common LE handgun round, and far less then a shotgun slug and some buckshot rounds. Now we have gangs with body armor, rifles, etc, if they have them why do I get the short end of the stick and should be stuck with a wheel gun and a shotgun. Our SWAT team doesn’t get called out much, we handle things on patrol. I know every department is different but I do sincerely beleive that most LEOs are good people trying to do a good service. I know there are jerks and bad apples in our bunch, and for that matter we don’t like working with them either.

    I know many of you own several firearms, wether it be handguns, long guns, or even black rifles, if you have the right to own them, which I fundementaly believe every american has the right to own all types of firearms, why can’t the LEO working the beat. AR15 rifles are the number one selling rifle and accesory market in the firearms business right now, it’s ok for everyone else to buy them but not cops, doesn’t seem fair to me. I believe in our constitution and uphold that, I know many of you believe this as well.

    We’re not all bad, and yes there is a time when a rifle is the best tool for the situation.
    I’ll try to check back and see how this goes but I’ve made my points. I’m not big into internet arguments but respect debate and differences of opinions.

    Rich

    • Rich, you sound like you’re not part of the problem.

      It’s not the cop-on-the-beat we take issue with (which is what you sound like). I think we all accept that cops are vital to society and most problems with beat cops can be solved with nothing more than better supervision.

      What we do have a problem with is so many departments having officers that are specifically trained to do violence, not as a last resort but as their job description. What we have a problem with is an absurdly disproportionate application of force against citizens suspected of some pretty minor crimes.

      • Agreed.

    • Rich, as a lawyer I’ve had plenty of run-ins with the police. Every single one of them were big-city badasses. Give me a small-town police officer over an ATF SWAT member any day of the week. The local LEOs are my neighbors.

    • Rich, I agree with you one hundred percent. I admire and respect LE and support them, except the few that break into the wrong house, shoot the dog, throw the kids on the floor, shoot the husband 60 times (missing most shots), drop the wife to the carpet with a knee in her back, cuff everyone, prevent medical help for the wounded, and break up the furniture, all while serving a non-violent warrant. Those thugs need to go to jail, unless of course they “were only following orders” (end sarcasm). Yeah, I know that I am exaggerating and I know that the overwhelming majority of LE do not do things like this, but this kind of thing should never happen in America.

11. All adults realize that there are good cops and bad cops. We also recognize that the vast majority of officers fall into the “Good” category. Of this, we are likely all in agreement.

    The problems though, are numerous:

    – There is now a constant drip drip drip of evidence collecting daily of cops acting incompetently, abusing their power or flat out committing criminal acts against the citizenry. Most of this is video evidence collected thanks to the proliferation of cameras. Everything from cops flagrantly assaulting citizens to arresting citizens for (legally) recording them to flat out confiscating money from people under the guise of “drug enforcement.”

    – In the vast majority of these situations, the “good” cops either stand around doing nothing or kick into the sort of expert bureaucratic obfuscation that only the precision articulation of a law enforcement officer can produce. What should be outrage at their peers acting out of turn becomes the thin blue wall where every doubt is argued and every possible explanation is proffered for the bad cop’s actions, no matter how absurd.

    – The combination of the War on Drugs (making every citizen a suspect) and the fetish for hardcore “Officer Safety” training has combined to take civility off of the table for most cops in our daily lives. With rare exception, every time I’ve said “Good afternoon” to a PPB cop on the street, I get a sort of annoyed, condescending nod at most, completely ignored most often. Officers have taken to what appears to be a sort of siege mentality whereby every citizen is placed somewhere on the threat continuum.

    – All of this adds up to an eroding respect of the police amongst civilians. The only contact I have with cops is through various shooting events and schools. Beyond that, they are a class of citizen nearly removed from most of social society. The folks I live and work around (business owners, entrepreneurs, lawyers, doctors… educated, upstanding citizens) generally have little personal respect for law enforcement and the general level of interactions with them don’t lead the folks I know to have a high opinion of the general intelligence of most LE members. The gruff personal attitudes and the endless media events pointing to irresponsible or criminal behavior doesn’t help matters.

12. Perhaps “IF” LEO would get rid of all the “Bad Apples” in their respective departments first and leave us with what some call “Oath Keepers” running the show all this animosity and distrust would at least lessen???
    Want support and some respect???
    Clean up the largest most dangerous street gang in the country FIRST and then we’ll talk.
    Until then they will get well mannered treatment from me because that is how I was brought up.
    BTW to Wes’ comment and everyone else have you noticed that the War on Drugs along with the War on Poverty and the War on Terror were not designed to be won only fought??? Continuous war without victory that as Wes said leads to illegal and wrong door raids along with increased calls for more and more power for those who would control us all. I think you call those raids woopsies.
    Do some research into Mr. Revere’s ride after seeing the lanterns in The Old North Church. What was it the British were coming for??? Were the British that eras police???
    Ask the people around New Orleans about LEO and National Guard “STEALING” weapons from law abiding people after Katrina. Ever heard of the killings on the Danziger Bridge there Bob???

13. Hey, don’t go accusing citizens on this blog of saying we want the average street cop or swat team member neutered and under-armed. I want you to have the best weapons, tactics and training and be a step ahead of the bad guys.

    That doesn’t mean, and I’m sure you would agree, that every arrest warrant should be served through a no-knock swat entry. I think you would also agree that if every arrest warrant were served that way, that officer safety would not be maximized. So we citizens must absolutely have input into the policies governing the use of such raids.

    When bad decisions and policies are being made by unelected government bureaucrats, we American citizens have a right and duty to question and criticize.

    That said, I find most cops, teachers and postal workers are good people and fine public servants. I just hate their bosses.

14. Well, from personal experience, some of these politically linked LEO’s I’ve known have gotten around background checks and screening procedures. I know a guy who is with his 3rd department, is SWAT, has anger issues, and ends each patrol with a beer on the way home-in the patrol car. He was kicked out of Army boot camp for “undisclosed” reasons. Another has a patrol car trunk full of weapons as if he were an Heckler and Koch representative going to a trade show -literally. Another was connected by family friends with the Sheriff. He was allowed to act as a reserve deputy for over a year, with a full time car, before ever going to the academy. He was fully armed and didn’t even own a personal car. He failed the academy twice before he was finally let go, with over a year and a half on the road, patrolling and fully armed.

15. “If the evil-doers are using military grade hardware, I don’t want to show up with a S&W .38 spcl and a couple speed loaders. Gangs and drug dealers a super hard-core now because they have no respect for human life at all. I can understand a call for SWAT to serve a “no-knock” warrant on a known meth labs and such but not simple warrants. And just like our military, defunding or disbanding them is a BAD idea. Don’t you think that would just embolden the bad guys?”

    All I can say is wow.

    BTW, you may want to check up on some of the gang warfare of the prohibition era, pretty sure they had military grade hardware back then too, like the tommy gun. The cops managed to do their job with just a 38 special, and without SWAT or the National Firearms Act.

    • Touche’. I wasn’t thinking in terms that far back,but you’re right about one thing;the bad guys have been using military grade stuff in order to gain advantage probably since the dawn of time. Where I part ways with you is on the subject of cops managed to do their job with just a .38. Now, I’m not an expert on these things,but I do know a little history. Alot of times the feds (Hoover’s G-men) worked along side local departments on speakeasy raids etc. which brought the ‘firepower’ to the party. Through the 20’s and 30’s local departments where getting their asses kicked by Capone’s cronies,Dillinger,Bonnie&Clyde(whose personal favorite was a sawed-off BAR) and the like. Having the feds joining in on the raids with their Thompson’s,BAR’s,1911’s and Winchester 95’s was the help the locals needed. They didn’t have SWAT but the did have the FBI.

16. Yeah, well I just want to go home at the end of their shift too. And I don’t like being forced at gunpoint to pay their salaries. If I wanted them, I’d pay for them. And if I paid for them, they’d treat my freedom with more respect. In our system of doing things, tyranny must come to your door in a uniform. Also, high ranking cops lobby for more laws and less freedom, especially 2nd rights. Fu** ’em.

17. “LE deaths in the line of duty are at an all time high and rising every year. ”

    From the Nat’l LEO Memorial Fund:

    “Traffic-related fatalities have been the leading
    cause of line of duty deaths for 13 straight years”
    http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2010_Law_Enforcement_Fatalities_Report.pdf

    Being a garbage pick up guy is twice as dangerous (37/100,000 vs 16/100,000). http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/04/07/dangerous-jobs.html

    Color me unimpressed with this argument.

    • Finally! I’m surprised it took this long for someone to call BS on the “it’s so dangerous, they just want to go home at the end of their shift” argument.

      • delivery driver is one of the most dangerous professions in the US. The other day the pizza man showed up, i put my money and on the porch and layed flat on my stomach hands behind my head, hey i’m just trying to keep everyone safe.

    • Hum. Interestingly we are both referencing the same report by the Nleomf. Let me clarify. I was referencing the Firearms-related fatalities:End of year 2010 of this same report. I was not implying that there are not more dangerous or potentially fatal jobs out there in America I was talking about this particular career choice.

      color me unimpressed with your unimpressed argument. with bonus uncool points for the ‘daily beast’ anything reference.

18. I’ll agree that 95% of them are good people trying to earn a living. SWAT does seem to attract some people with military attitudes though.

    If you look at statistics and you want to cut down on the numbers of innocents injured or killed, then crack way down on when it’s appropriate to do a high speed pursuit and other ’emergency’ driving activities (which often aren’t emergencies anymore- like the 5th+ responder to an accident scene). That’s causing more injuries and deaths statistically then are caused by SWAT methods.

19. I was going to comment more, and I appreciate your opinions. I am a gun owner and enthusiest as I feel we have to stick together.

    However, with this I’ll pass and wish you guys a good day.
    “Yeah, well I just want to go home at the end of their shift too. And I don’t like being forced at gunpoint to pay their salaries. If I wanted them, I’d pay for them. And if I paid for them, they’d treat my freedom with more respect. In our system of doing things, tyranny must come to your door in a uniform. Also, high ranking cops lobby for more laws and less freedom, especially 2nd rights. Fu** ‘em.”

    • I can see where that comment wouldn’t sit well, but he’s pretty clearly an outlier here, opinion-wise.

    • Rich R,

      Don’t be put off by the people that go a little far on their attitudes about law enforcement.

      It would be nice if good officers were more visible and made an effort to reach out and share their honest opinions. I think it could help people like us to have good officers like you in the back of our mind whenever an officer somewhere does something inappropriate.

      Hopefully you will think of us too if a fellow officer gets a bit too aggressive with one of us without the badge

      • Thanks, I like this site and like the discussion. I just know that sometimes you can’t argue your side to closed minds. I appreciate your comments and I’ll stick around.

20. 80% of the problem is related to declaring War on (some) Drugs and SWAT tactics. We see TV shows like Detroit Swat where they essentially tear a house down with military vehicles in order to arrest someone for misdemeanor possession–and this is considered pro-police footage. Somehow a transaction between willing adults is considered worse than a violent attack on an innocent victim.

    SWAT should be considered like civilian carry–it isn’t the primary tool to solve problems, rather a last resort when other methods aren’t likely to succeed, and as a seldom-used deterrent.

21. An apparently big reason a “special police database” was added to the WI concealed-carry bill is because former-Massachusetts, now-Milwaukee, police chief Flynn wanted it as he warned of blood in the streets and whatever else. As evidence, he used a gang shooting by people who I really doubt would obey the law and get a permit anyway. So now all CCW people in WI will be in a “special police database.” It will be interesting to see how that is abused since in WI you don’t have to show ID otherwise. Police: 1. “Civilians” and The Constitution: 0.

    If someone wants to say it’s a few bad apples that spoil the bunch, there’s a good chance I would agree. But the problem really comes in when those bad apples get to bend and break laws, are “militarized,” and then seem to have little to no accountability.

    It will be interesting to watch the coming season of Steven Seagal’s cop show when they use a tank to arrest a guy at his cock-fighting house in the suburbs. I guess they couldn’t simply wait for when he walks outside to get the mail.

    There sure are a lot of negative ATF articles on this site. Kind of sounds like a lot of hippies not appreciating that ATF has a tough job and that they just want to go home to their families every night like everyone else. They’re just doing what they think is best to protect the “civilians,” you know. I’d like the author to read this article while substituting “ATF” for “LEO.”

    Yeah, law enforcement is a tough job. So are many other jobs. But people in those other jobs didn’t pull me over at midnight on a made-up, bs traffic charge so they could see if I had been drinking and to run my license and whatever else they could try. Sorry if I don’t really think such a person is responsible enough with the law to bust down doors at 4 a.m. with flash grenades.

22. reaganmarine84 says: “Come on people, wake up!! The world is a bad, bad place now. LE deaths in the line of duty are at an all time high and rising every year.”

    False. Police fatalities in the line of duty are in a long-term downtrend.

    Here’s one reason I hate cops: testalying.

    • Wow, am I in agreement with Magoo?
      Here’s data from the FBI’s report on “Law Enforcement Officers Killed & Assaulted”. Nationwide, the anuual numbers of “Law enforcement officers feloniously killed” were:
      2000- 51
      2001- 70
      2002- 56
      2003- 52
      2004- 57
      2005- 55
      2006- 48
      2007- 58
      2008- 41
      2009- 48
      No data listed for 2010.

      • Oh, and “the world is a bad, bad place now”? Really? You know when the world was a bad, bad place? Try 1942.

      • I looked at that too. The FBI’s criteria for what they label “felloniously killed” is different than what I was reffering to. I was reffering to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund’s Research Bulletin’s :Firearms-related fatalities:End of year 2010. BTW,if you somehow believe that the world is a “better place” now than in 1942 good luck with that. In 1942 we,as Americans,at least knew what was good and what was evil. Now,I’ve lost alot of faith in people’s ability to know good from evil and right from wrong. Political correctness,liberalism and so called ‘grey area’ mentality is killing this country and the rest of the world. Admit it, there are things happening at an astonishing rate that when you were growing up,you probably would never have thought would ever happen. It’s a fact of nature that ‘EVERYTHING’ is in a state of decline from its beginning to its final end.

        • The report you cite says that for 2010 “for the 13th year in a row, traffic fatalities were the leading cause of officer fatalities… an increase of 43 percent from 2009”. Their data also shows a long term declining trend in officer deaths. They do note that “firearm fatalities increased from 49 deaths in 2009 to 61 in 2010”. This increase is not evidence of a long-term trend.

          • “It’s a fact of nature that ‘EVERYTHING’ is in a state of decline from its beginning to its final end.” And it’s a fact of human nature that people always think the world is going down the toilet, and that things were better in the good old days. The good old days weren’t so good if you were a kid with polio, a black man in Alabama, or anyone in an automobile accident.

23. >LE deaths in the line of duty are at an all time high and rising every year.
    Nope, look at the charts. While they may have risen since 2009, we’re still doing better than say 25 years ago.

    This site has nice charts(and an obvious bias, but still: charts)
    http://pugetsoundanarchists.org/node/495

    I would think a lot better of most “law enforcement” agencies if they didn’t jump through hoops to protect their own from responsibility for their actions.

    Maybe Chicago is worse about it than the average municipality, but it’s sad when officers do something reckless or illegal and then get protected by their buddies/union and get put on administrative duty until people forget. Why, you can see it for yourself: check out Second City Cop blog, where essentially they complain that the victims of torture were all scumbags so it was okay if they were tortured. I myself have a friend who was “roughed-up” at a precinct because he looked like a known(maybe just suspected) drug dealer. Or take my family friend, whose husband is abusive and mentally ill, but has been on paid leave for two years and his friends in the department have been (illegally) ignoring the instances shes tried to report.

    What’s sad is I doubt these events are atypical in other parts of the country.

24. I feel the same way about law enforcement as I do about the military. Love the soldier hate the war.

25. It’s not the Tactics, it’s the Strategy.

    We want our LEOs to have proper arms, training and tactics, but it’s the politicians and wack-job bureaucrats that keep using these civilian officers in ever more militaristic ways. We don’t want and don’t need to be occupied by a military force

    reaganmarine84 states that the badguys “have upped the ante on the firepower they carry now” Have they really? Accept for a few highly published accounts, I don’t think this is true. The “West Hollywood” shooting has been an excuse to get AR15s in every patrol car, but this doesn’t mean we need to use armored vehicles to bash down doors and throw grenades to do routine arrests. And that is just the local guys. Wait till EVERY .gov agency starts “hup hup hup” ing around your neighborhood looking for people accused of selling illegal baby cribs on ebay.

    reaganmarine84 should remember Lt Howard Hunter from Hill Street Blues. That guys was the butt of many jokes because he was so militaristic. This wasn’t the norm in 1984 but has become the norm. At about the same time, real community based policing was being lost to 911. Officers rolled up their squad car windows and went from call to call. Today, the only interaction we citizens have with the police is when we get stopped for speeding, or when our doors are mistakenly kicked in. Both occasions are not great PR moments.

    I know many cities have tried in urban areas, but even suburban police need to get back to some sort of community policing. Get out of your cars. Walk around, say hello. Make THAT the norm, not the flashbang.

    • I’m going to reply by paragraph.

      I agree that law enforcement has to get back to being more community oriented. Fortunately I live in a suburban area in St. Louis county. The city I live in has been voted “safest place to live” for its size,west of the mississippi,numerous times. (My ex-father in law retired as a reserve officer after 35 yrs. in the city I live in,so I have first hand knowledge). I see a very active police presence in my neighborhood every week. Sometimes all it takes is for me to wave and say hello if a new officer drives by and from then on he stops every time he sees me outside. Some even pull in my driveway,get out and stand there and talk to me. All because I initiated as a citizen. I want to show him support and respect and he appreciates it accordingly. I agree that more departments around the nation should be encouraging the same type of interaction. Now, to see that happen within the city limits of St. Louis. yea right. And monkeys are going to fly outta my butt.

      I never watched Hill Street blues,so I don’t know about that.

      And finally. What you call a “West Hollywood” excuse,I call common freakin’ sense. Don’t forget that during that horrible incident,the police went to a local gun store to better arm themselves before SWAT was on scene. Who the hell with at least one brain cell would bring a 9mm to an armor-piercing AK47 gunfight,body armored gunfight You?? Do you think that the officers that day had a clue that they would be involved in such a fight with department issue 9mm’s? Even the ones who had shotguns in their patrol cars were ‘ineffective’.

      Come on man,this is force on force gunfighting. Maybe the reason there haven’t been any more West Hollywood type shootouts is because perps know that even the regular patrol officer is now has access to a rifle caliber,body armor defeating long gun. Let’s not forget the threat of radical Islamofacist Jihadists who have no conscience and want to kill every American. You said that except for a few,key words here,”highly published accounts” you don’t think that the bad guys haved upped the ante on firepower.

      Question. What planet do you live on? How about all of the “not so highly published accounts? Tell you what,come to St. Louis for a while,watch our newscasts and then tell me that. Unfortunately St. Louis county shares a border with Meth lab central Jefferson county. There are more meth labs in Jefferson county Mo. than the rest of the nation combined from what I’m told. Alot,but not all, of the Meth on America’s streets was manufactured in Jefferson county.

      After a raid,the LE elements will show what was confiscated as part of the raid. I’ve seen LOTS of AK’s and variants,AR’s,FN-FAL’s,sawed-off M14’S,Barrett’s .50 cal.,I once saw a M1919 .30 cal. machine gun,claymores,IED’s, and homemade mines and booby-traps.

      So my point is,your average patrol officer doesn’t necessarily know what he’s rolling up on any more whether it’s a traffic stop, domestic call,disturbance, investigating a funny smell coming from a residence,whatever. Patrol officers wear body armor too like our military. Is that militarized or common sense in this day and time?

26. In New York City, cops lost contact with civilians when the PD took them off the beat and put them into cars. Seeing Officer Joe walking the beat twirling his nightstick used to be a reassuring sight. The Officer was part of the community. If a policeman approached me to talk about what I was doing or whether Mickey hit one out the day before, I felt like we had something in common. That’s over and done with now. When a cop rolls up on me in his cruiser, I cringe.

    I was back in NYC last month and saw a cop guarding the inside of a bank, in full uni. It’s legal moonlighting and a lot of cops do it. I asked the young officer what he was carrying (a Glock 19) and we spent a pleasant fifteen minutes talking about guns. I couldn’t do that if he was in his car. LEOs, if you want respect from the community, you’re going to have to give it. Get off your collective asses and meet the people you’re sworn to protect. You’ll get more cooperation, less lip and you’ll have a better chance of going home in one piece at the end of your shift.

    • how very true, I often wonder how much easier it would be to solve crimes in urban neighborhoods where police complain “no one wants to talk” if an officer had a relationship with someone.

      • I kinda look at police like that older guy in high school who failed a grade or two and now has a license when no one else does. He drives around all day revving the engine and screeching tires when there are hot girls around but no one knows who the hell he is.

        Police need to be a face in the community. I haven’t seen a cop car where I live but once in two years. That was for a break in.

27. When was the last time you saw a cop car that said “to protect and serve”? It’s been a long time for me. Cops have no duty to protect and in my experience, they investigate, intimidate and procrastinate.

28. Bad laws make bad outlaws — and bad lawmen.

    My grandmother, ten years gone, now, went to Mass every day I can remember, and was conservative as the day is long, and a teetotaller for the last thirty years of her life.

    She said then that Prohibition did not work the first time it was tried and would not work now.

    Ten years later and it is ten years worse.

29. I guess tradionally almost all firearms shooter supported the Police 100%. However over the years I have seen the attitude from police towards shooters “degrade significantly”. Many of us feel the Police consider us to be the enemy and not trustworthy. I guess after time this attitude rubs off on us. Whilst I consider myself a law abiding peaceful guy I really resent this attitude and I myself have felt my sympathy and respect for Police ingeneral ( but more particularly those in higher office) degenerating.

    I guess if someone treats you like an enemy even though you have done nothing towards this veiw, it rubs off on you.

30. My problem is more with SWAT type raids than police. I haven’t had a problem yet with any police officer on duty. What I worry about is that SWAT raid on my house. Whether it is a wrong address, bad information from a druggie…

    When the police perform a raid on my house? Very bad. I’ve seen all the videos. No one can tell what the police are yelling because they all shout different things at the same time. If people come running into my house and I can’t clearly identify them as police? I will end up dead… and so will some of them… Because someone decided to go in hard.

    If uniformed police show up at my door with a warrant? “No problem, officer. May I see the warrant? It has the right address and looks valid. Come right in. May I call my attorney now?”

    I believe that all SWAT type raids should be requested in writing by a ranking officer and authorized by a judge. The only exceptions would be the same things that allow police to enter legally without a warrant and every one of those should require a TON of paperwork by the officers involved and their superiors.

    I don’t want to die because some badly trained SWAT team has evidence that some of my family (who live elsewhere) are felons, as happened to that marine recently.

    It was a clean shoot because they had a warrant and he had a rifle in his hand.

    It was a completely unnecessary SWAT entry because he worked every day at the same time and they could easily have picked him up at work and used his keys to enter with the warrant.

    He died because those officers wanted to play at SWAT that day.

    I don’t want to die for a similar reason.

31. I don’t have a problem with peace officers in general, most have been quite polite to me. I just don’t put them up on a pedestal. I trust them as much as I trust anyone, which is not at all, until they have earned that trust on an individual basis.

    They have an unenviable job, frequently dealing with the worst humanity has to offer, but they volunteered for it, so I’m not giving them special treatment.

    • I agree, Vigilantis. I don’t think anyone who gets paid and just does the job they applied to should be applauded because it is a hard job. Do we see people giving commendations to call center employees? Those folks put up with more shit a day then anyone. And maybe more threats 😉

      As for the volunteered statement: I agree 100%. I grew up being very close to a few of my cousins. Two (which were also brothers) joined the Canadian military. The oldest the navy, the youngest the army. The oldest from the get go said he was going to be a sailor and set out to do so. He did some tours at sea (off the coast of Canada ;P) and loved it. Full time he currently patrols ports like Nova Scotia and a lot of the time the coast of B.C. He and his boys check to make sure that no one is smuggling contraband and everything is going smooth. In his words he asks dock masters and harbor masters if they saw any drugs last week. Nope. Moving on. Not bad for 85000 a year plus housing and food.

      The younger brother wanted to out do the older (younger was army). He decided to be an engineer too. He did some tours during peace time and got to help Germany build a nice bridge and the Canadians hosted a trebuchet contest. Great times. He went full time and was immediately sent to Afghanistan. He saw his friend have his eye shot out by gravel from a ricochet and another killed by their own guys fighting vehicle. He sited mental conditions and got to spend 3 months in Hawaii with an Afghan lady he met over there and soon after married. He is still gone in the head (started crying on New Years because of fireworks last I saw him) and served his country (which he did). He will keep telling you that you don’t know what it is like and that no one is a patriot until they have fought for their country. He rants about the sacrifice he made and how we all should be grateful. Funny thing is I don’t remember signing him up for war and I do remember him being all cocky stating he was going to kill all them camel jockeys (his words – not mine). I think his brother is the hero for signing up but keeping a family with practically no risk of death by job.

      On the other hand my uncle served as a peacekeeper in Bosnia when all that was going down and had a leg half blown off while in a carrier (landmine). No complaints. His buddy’s say his only question about his injury was if ‘he’ was still there. ‘He’ was, so he is happy. He has a scarred leg and it hurts in winter, even down South where he currently lives. He had 3 guys die with him that day and another is in a wheelchair. He never complained and doesn’t like to talk about it to most people. He volunteered, he got paid, he knew what it was about and why he wanted to do it. He is fine. He is the kind of person I think about as good people to watch over the masses. There just is so few.

32. Yeah, we’re at pretty much a long-time low of police being killed on the job, especially when you correct for the steadily growing denominator:

    This particular measure of police safety – felonious killings – is remarkably lower than a few decades ago. After the 1973 peak of 134 murders, these killings began a relatively steady decline through the mid-1980s, when they initially bottomed out at around 70 a year. Those figures continued slowly downward, such that during the 1990s the average was 64 and in the 2000s lower still at around 48. The high in the past two decades was 79 in 1994, while the low of 41 was very recent – 2008. As a result, we might see increases in killings from time to time simply because of natural year-to-year variations, but you’d have to look all the way back to 1961 to find a lower figure than the 41 in 2008.

    Despite attention-grabbing headlines, we also should bear in mind that today there are more than twice as many sworn police officers as there were serving in the early 1970s.

33. Maybe such outstanding examples of police officers like Chicago chief of detectives #2 cop in the city, former Chicago Police Chief of Detectives William Hanhardt. Hanhardt was convicted of leading a national outfit jewel theft ring using all the resources of one of the world’s largest police forces. That is just what they could convict him on. He was doing much more than that of course, including murder, extortion, etc. Or how about another fine example of law enforcement officer Drew Peterson or this notable Chicago cop beating a helpless petite bartender: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49kgG0s7lVk

34. A lot of cops are dirty scumbags, in one way or another. That’s reality and truth, not contrivance nor fiction. It’s sad, really, the unprofessionalism some agencies are afflicted with. You have to examine the type of person that wants to become PD in the first place. These people don’t give a shit about ‘making a difference in the community’. That’s a load of hooey; they’re classic type A personalities. Of those type As those who cannot become CEOs and make millions a year you get the government ‘operators’; police, SWAT, Navy SEALs, various and sundry badasses like that. Guys that feel no pain because they have no brains. People who absolutely have to have some kind of power trip to make their lives worth living. Guys like that have issues, and they invariably end up corrupt.

    I have met a lot of LEOs and only a few of them would I consider to be on the level. Most of them aren’t too swift either, which is exacerbated by their respective agency’s hiring standards. Typically, most intelligent people would not choose a career in law enforcement. They would become surgeons or particle physicists or astronauts. Of the smart people that do go into law enforcement, well they either follow the real money into bureaucracy or they go into the private sector eventually. Ain’t no money on the force, never really has been. You don’t have to be smart to take pride in your work however, and that’s precisely where today’s Barneys are failing big time.

    The author’s assertion that we should cut them slack and look the other way from their increasingly menacing unprofessionalism because ‘they fear for their lives’ is kind of ironic. I recognize and fully understand that they fear for their lives. I respect that they ‘keep the baddies at bay’. Wouldn’t want all those baddies everywhere terrorizing the population burning things and blowing stuff up like in the movies would we. But that’s what they are paid and trained to do, and it’s poor form to complain about the danger of it now. They get the best equipment and training that there is and they still whine and cry about the game being too dangerous. Don’t listen to their sobbing; they are not outgunned nor are they out-equipped by criminals. They have toys you people wouldn’t believe at their disposal. All of it paid for by you and me, of course. A lot of that crap they don’t even need, and all of it is expensive. Little town of 23,000 in NH with a Bearcat APC? WTF is that?

    I spent two tours over in Iraq, USMC. Scared all the time but I didn’t stand around and drink free coffee and complain about it. That’s just bad form to whine about the inherencies of your job. I suppose they thought it was going to be all parades and ice cream socials. You sign on the line that means you know WTF it is you’re getting into. No one’s fault but your own if you don’t, and there ain’t no crying in baseball.

    The police in this country don’t know how good they have it. They are riding a brown mushroom gravy train compared to some people. Suck it up boys, do your jobs, stop whining about the ‘danger’, be professional & courteous to those whom you work for (hint: the taxpayers), earn your keep, and for God’s sake do some PT – then maybe the public won’t think you’re such tools.

35. most Police officers are Freemasons and it is well know now it’s out in the open that they worship Lucifer, they are Satanist I don’t trust any cop.tyrony is coming soon, Sandy Hook Shooting was an inside job and a fake set up to take every ones gun.You people have no idea what is coming keep your ears to the track peace and love from Canada.

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