Note: This is the first of a series of interviews with former operators who have lived and breathed guns for most of their lives in different ways. These occasional interviews will be a mash-up of tall tales, personal musings and boisterous unchallenged opinions. The intermittent nature of these articles is solely due to the fact that chasing down operators and getting them to talk is a lot like trying to convince Sasquatch to a sit down afternoon tea with you. Have fun and fire away in the comments, folks.
Today’s Interview with an Operator is with a 55-year-old fellow who chose the handle “Male Concubine” for our time together. MC began hunting at the age of 8. He entered the Army at 19, was a military policeman for a year, then was seconded into the being “guy Friday” for the commanding general of the criminal investigation division.
He has attended FBI training programs in short-barreled weapons seven times and twice through their automatic weapons program. He has also completed their intermediate and advanced handgun programs and their shotgun course.
After the military, he did drug interdiction work under the supervision of the U.S Marshals. MC has been and still is a competitive shooter and has been since age 8, becoming competent at trap and skeet shooting by the time he entered the military. When he’s not training or competing he still enjoys shooting skeet with a double action revolver.
Male Concubine generously agreed to a short series of interviews about random gun-related topics before jetting off to Kandahar for a year or so. Today’s topic: shooting under water.
ED: Thanks for joining me today and giving TTAG readers some of your time
MC: You’re welcome. In order to prepare for this interview, I got on TTAG and read through a bunch of articles, including yours. Nice work there, especially the piece on finding a boyfriend, but wow, what a bunch of keyboard commandos in the comments.
ED: Well, thanks. We strive to have a little bit of everything for everyone.
MC: Apparently.
ED: So today’s question I have for you is about shooting underwater, since this is something you have experience with. Obviously there’s a backstory, which is how you ended up with a gun underwater in the first place, so please include that if you would.
MC: How I learned that 1911s could shoot underwater was…remember my description of that Para-Ordnance that I was carrying against all regulations and permission?
ED: Go ahead and describe for the readers:
MC: It was essentially a beefed-up Browning Hi Power, is what it looked like. But it was a 1911 platform; most of the parts were interchangeable. Some things weren’t because of the width of the frame. Regardless, with this weapon, when I was doing my overt drug interdiction, we had an issue where there were some individuals where we were operating that had targeted us because we were taking so many drug plants off of their fields. So, with my previous gentleman’s agreement and beer drinking experiences with some of the Special Operations guys, a Special Operations team came up to help me.
There was some mechanized equipment that we couldn’t get out of the area, so we decided to blow the place. So, using two remote command detonated anti-tank mines (laughing)…
We were hung over. We were drinking till about 3 in the morning. We were inserted into the area by aircraft. We were carrying about 57 pounds of different kinds of high explosives. So, we were screwing around, the SF guys placed the explosives since they wisely didn’t trust me with that.
But when we were running away, and everyone was giggling like hyenas, when the first mine went off, it blew parts of a tractor about 100 meters, and we were already about 100 meters away from the device when we ignited it. So we took refuge, and in my case, I ended up sliding down the bank into a river and going submerged.
When the pieces were falling around me, I thought I was getting shot at. So when I surfaced and everyone was laughing at me, I started shooting at them with the 1911 up the bank. Happily they dove for cover and my rounds went over their heads.
The first four rounds came out with the weapon held close to contact range on my chest. I was still treading water trying to get to the bank. The weapon was underwater tilted slightly up. I was worried that there could be an atmospheric breach, that there could be air trapped in the muzzle or the chamber. The first four rounds came out pretty well. Then I realized that submerging non-weatherproof ammunition wasn’t going to work. Out of a 14 round magazine I probably only got 8 or 9 rounds before the rest of the ammo became defunct due to being submerged.
ED: So that first time was a happy accident, essentially.
MC: Yes. And then, because I was trained by Smith & Wesson as a revolver armorer, I did some selective trials for a different type of Special Operations committee. After treading water, when I went into the exercise, I’d forgotten I had a non-standard weapon in my pocket, which was a five-shot Charter Arms.
ED: What kind of environment were you in?
MC: I was actually in an indoor pool on a military base in the United States going through this selective process. After being suitably disoriented, you had to tread water in the pool for 30 minutes. The exercise wasn’t about being armed, but I had forgotten that the gun was in my pocket.
When I got out of the pool and realized the weapon had been completely immersed, I wondered if I could do the same thing as before. So, later that night, I jumped a fence and went back into the pool and commenced to fire underwater both the Charter Arms and a Smith & Wesson.
The good thing about that 130 grain ammo was that it did fire under water, but I was too close to the side of the pool and put a hole in the liner. I had been drinking, but I wasn’t drunk. I do know the difference.
ED: Did you tell on yourself?
MC: Oh hell no.
ED: So can any handgun fire under water?
MC: As long as there’s not any kind of atmospheric breach, meaning as long as you don’t have an air pocket in the barrel. Your grip is more important under water than on dry land, mainly because of the parasitic drag of the water and the environment of the slide.
They will typically go off. You’ll get better horizontal travel with a FMJ round than a hollow point, obviously. But with a 9mm or .38 FMJ round shooting underwater, 15 to 18 feet will penetrate. .45 FMJ has about a maximum range of about 15 feet that it will shoot and still keep some kind of horizontal directive motion before the hydraulic forces will make it veer to one side.
ED: So what you’re saying is that if TTAG readers find themselves in an underwater gunfight, they should know that if they’re carrying the right kind of round, that gunfight’s going to need to be inside of 15 feet.
MC: When you get into a gunfight and you end up in a pool, most civilian pools are not more than 15 feet wide, so if you fall in, you can still eliminate the threat.
ED: Thank you Male Concubine for these tips. Is there anything else you’d like us to know? Where are you headed after this?
MC: I’m going down to the Buck and Doe range near San Antonio for a bowling pin shoot. I don’t imagine you have many ladies reading TTAG, but just in case there are, I’m 55, single, straight, available, and I make house calls.
“Key board commandos”? Wow I guess I’ll sit down even though I served 89 years and did 432 tours as a PJ in the Delta SOAR Rangers of the 75th SEAL Regiment, MARSOC Battalion . . .
And if you haven’t heard of us, it’s because you hate America.
Ruffle my feathers will you? Keyboard commando? Wow that guy is good. I’ve never met him and he’s already nailed me.
But to prove his point…
“There was some mechanized equipment that we couldn’t get out of the area, so we decided to blow the place. So, using two remote command detonated anti-tank mines (laughing)…”
Yea I do that too. Ex-wife’s car wouldn’t start. How dare she call me for help. So (laughing)….
There will be a future piece from same person about ex wife who shot at him repeatedly. If DZ goes for it that is. Wait for it…
Hey Elaine, can I get a higher resolution copy of your avatar picture to hang in my bedroom?
Haha! That photo is SO old. I stopped doing nightclub type work when I was 45. I just don’t know how to change the damn avatar to something more current. If I can find the original photo I’ll send it to you via Dan.
Keyboard commando’s. Ha ha I’ve got a key pad.
I don’t want to be the first to comment, but I do want to be the first to predict that this post will get the largest TTAG response, ever. Professional Operators and keyboard kommandos will all have a dog in this fight. Wow…-30-
“… I do want to be the first to predict that this post will get the largest TTAG response, ever.”
No, the record for most comments on an article is over *600*, if memory serves…
Which one was that? Vegas shootings?
This is… made up, right?
Yes. We blew things up, i shot at some guys, they ducked, we all laughed and drank the night away
How could it be made up? They even included video of the incident this operator describes.
Nope. All true. I did a small series with this guy. More to come.
Please don’t. Let this be the first and the last. While some of this is believable, you lost me at the USMS bit and “FBI training”. Unless he was DEA or FBI, I can guarantee he didn’t got to Quantico that many times. The FBI does literally hundreds of workshop type events for state/local LE agencies a year. There’s been a big emphasis on active/school shooter training in recent years. It ain’t special, and it does not an operator make.
This guy was probably a local or state LEO post-military. It all reads like a TFO trying to beef up his resume to pickup chicks in the bar.
Save yourself, and the site, what little integrity it has left. Let this die.
I really don’t care if one can fire a gun underwater or not. Totally irrelevant to the vast majority of us.
Then why did you click the link? You must be a real blast at pool parties.
Clearly Red does not attend pool parties.
Three and a half months early on this kind of nonsense methinks…
TTAG is mid-jump over the shark. I’ve been hanging on for the occasional good piece from Jeremy S, Chris Heuss, DZ, JWT, or even a rare glimpse at whatever Leghorn is doing these days.
Gun reviews, gear reviews, and intellectual discussions on 2A politics are the heart and soul of this page. I understand reviews take a lot of time and effort, but they’re the only thing that keep me reading.
They just full on jumped the shark. Are you serious? We are going to have articles about irresponsibly shooting at friendlies under the influence of alcohol? This whole article sucks.
No Joe. This article just put the second T back in TTAG.
Now if you cannot handle the truth head over to Fox news.
Serious question: What do the authors do to authenticate the veracity of these sources?
What’s to stop someone who enlisted and drove supply trucks for a deployment from making up, embellishing or repeating war stories he’s heard when getting soused?
DD 214, line 23a, specialty number and title. About halfway down the page on the left. All Gods’ chilluns got one. Or not? Just about the only thing on a 214 they can’t or won’t redact. Inquiring minds want to know. Also, there’s something about the numbers…just don’t add up…sorta like working the door at a bar and asking the kid the D.O.B. on “his” ID while holding your thumb so he can’t read it. Good times…-30-
Unfortunately I don’t think that would help here. According to the above he was an MP for a year and then was was a ‘guy friday’ (secretary?) in CID. That doesn’t scream ‘operator’ to me- in fact, a POG’s DD214 could read like that. After that “he did drug interdiction work under the supervision of the U.S Marshals.” What does that mean?
“under the supervision of” is a neat little phrase that would seem to mean he wasn’t one, which makes it basically useless. It’s like when you hear people talk about being operators and then when you start digging down on their story, it becomes “attached to” and then “worked with”. Could be something, could be nothing- but is it at all verified?
That’s the problem with all this. It’s already pretty easy to find anonymous spec op stories written by guys on gun forums that spend most of their time reading Soldier of Fortune.
It’s my observation (different from experience), “under the supervision of” means contracted.
Like the Corps of Engineers didn’t build the levees in New Orleans, they were built by contractors “under the supervision of” the CoE.
So, in effect, he was a SoF.
Big Bll,
That is not what it means in the military realm at all. “Under the supervision of” does not denote, in any way, inclusion into those ranks or organizations.
In the federal LE world, that means he was assigned to a task force of some sort. He was on loan, by his parent agency, to the USMS. These are usually a mix of local, state, and other federal agencies, depending upon who is running it and what it entails.
As this was post-military, I’d say he was a local or state PD.
I’ll also add drug interdiction ain’t exactly the bread and butter of the USMS. That’s more of a DEA or FBI thing.
The military police are not SOF. CID is not SOF. The US Marshals are definitely not SOF.
Yes, there are task forces that attach agents and officers to federal agencies like the USMS. That doesn’t make you a Marshal. And it certainly doesn’t make you an operator. The real bonafides that should be listed here is the position he held, not to whom he was attached by some nebulous thread.
edit, because there’s no edit for some stupid reason?
– when I said that a task force does not make you a marshal, that’s not necessarily true in a legal sense. One can be specially deputized as a marshal… if you’re already a LEO. That does not an operator make.
I might be able to find my DD214, never paid much attention after I got a retired ID, seems redundant. Still, I would be curious WTF you’re talking about, since I had a lot of different jobs in 20 years, most as a pilot, some not, some in combat, most not, as a trainer, a bus driver and a gas station in the sky. No earthly clue what the DD214 would say about that.
There’s a lot of info about training, deployments and decorations (along with the obvious MOS) that would be useful to ferret out phonies although someone could probably photoshop one pretty easily.
He’s a LARP’r.
Serious question: do we believe there was actually a “source?” My vote is no.
Oh it’s all true. The heroism, magic, and parts that contradicted other parts. All of it. Lol, this is a product of a sad person desperate for street cred. I bet Elaine’s reply would be that she’s not trying to impress anyone but I must, why try so hard then?
*must ask. grumble grumble fucking missing edit button.
This article definitely falls into the “why do I still check out this site on occasion?” category…
This.
Affirm
What a load of shit.
Fluid is fluid. Air and water react the same and to the same physical equations. Just a few differences like density, etc.
Bullets meet much higher resistance in fluids like water and oil than in air, making shooting underwater a moot point except at very short ranges where the bullet is inside the gas bubble created by the powder ignition.
The Navy has done extensive research on very fast underwater torpedos and other projectiles in gas ‘bubbles’ to obviate the waters dramatically increased resistance.
“The Navy has done extensive research on very fast underwater torpedos and other projectiles in gas ‘bubbles’ to obviate the waters dramatically increased resistance.”
A Supercavitation torpedo. The Russians have a nasty one, the VA-111 Shkval.
An underwater solid-fuel rocket that squirts a percentage of its exhaust gasses through the nose of the torpedo. It ‘blows a bubble’ of gas and the torpedo ‘flies’ through the gas bubble at a speed of about 200 knots (370 km/h; 230 mph).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVL6AP9NLZc
Riiiiight because all professional soldiers get drunk before going out with explosives then shoot at each other.
Yeah, file this memoir under “how not to do it”…
As for his 1911 that looks like a Hi-Power and can interchange parts with one…I detect wafting bovine excrement, but I’ll reserve judgement for someone who knows more about Browning Hi-Powers than I do. It seems unlikely though.
No part of that particular section made any sense at all.
Nowhere near any definition of an operator myself, I have known and still do know a few operators (even by JWT`s definitions) and I don’t doubt they tossed back a few the night before ‘cakewalk’ missions.
Yeah the drunken fireworks part was totally believable, just not the Para/Hi Power part. That made no sense. I’m assuming something lost in translation.
With ammo that magically stops working because it got wet.
A *long* time ago, new to handloading, I put together 6 .357 mag rounds and dropped them in a glass of water. 6 months later took them out and loaded up. All 6 fired, some noticeably less powerfully than normal, but I would not volunteer to stand in front of them. The idea that 30 seconds in a pool would make any manner of cartridges fail to fire is not credible to me.
Let’s see, being a keyboard commando and all:
MC: “We were hung over. We were drinking till about 3 in the morning…..”
MC: “I had been drinking, but I wasn’t drunk. I do know the difference….”
Screams professional to me. Because that’s what you do prior to mission execution with HE or handling weapons.
You’d be surprised, homey.
“MC: “I had been drinking, but I wasn’t drunk. I do know the difference….””
I have seen hundreds of videos on YT where drivers definitely knew the difference. Problem is, the field tests and breathalyzer told a very different story.
A little personal opinion here: alcohol lies to you. It tells you you’re better when you drink. Operators are not immune to this lying.
So guns will fire under water if the operator is drunk. Gotcha.
Plus, good for TTAG having the b@lls to insult its constituency by calling them names. That worked great for Hillary and Ed Stack, didn’t it?
“Plus, good for TTAG having the b@lls to insult its constituency by calling them names.”
Yeah, that was a chin-scratcher for me, until I noticed the name of the article’s author.
Elaine owns and carries guns. But she’s damn sure no ‘Person of the Gun’ in my book. She *enjoyed* sticking that metaphorical knife in and twisting it.
But hey, it generates page clicks, and that keeps the light on at TTAG…
Glad I’m not the only one who picked up on the fact that Elaine is part of the problem. I sincerely hope her “profession” is only as real as this type of bullshit but it would make sense that counseling is the only field she could work in. I don’t get her motivation to spout nonsense on this site, but she is a prime example of why shrinks are best avoided. The biggest question is, is she even fooling herself? Dazzling with bullshit doesn’t work on a lot of us.
Sweetie, I don’t have to “get” work. I run my own business. Work comes to me. Because I’m good at what I do.
DZ is the one who makes the call on whether pieces I send him get published. You may forward your complaints to him. He’s the guy in charge. I just write about stuff I find funny and interesting. Don’t be a hater.
If you’re writing garbage it’s on both of you. Although the idea that a hack can blame someone else for publishing her work is pretty amusing.
Now now dearie (see I can be condescending too), hate is such a strong word. I do however detest the garbage you spew. Is it to try and fit in or be cool? I don’t agree with a lot of the silliness on this site, yours tends to come off as more sinister tho.
I miss Robert Farago….
Yup . . .
Me too!
Not me man. RF turned so dark and bitter in his final months. If he was still around this place would be a sewer of hateful white pride and glorified shootings.
“hateful white pride”
From the Jewish child of holocaust survivors.
If “hateful white pride” is what you read, you’re delusional.
Under RFs watch there was a daily black on white crime story.
And watch your mouth young man. Many of my relatives did not survive the Holocaust. That does not make Robert innocent by association.
Daily black on white crime story! Pure make believe. Seek help.
Me too!!!!! I’m left wondering if there is any way to get him back
Who????
Who???????
For the sake of the people who had to work with this clown, I sincerely hope this is all made up. He sounds like a wildly unprofessional drunk who puts himself and the rest of the team in danger. The kind of guy who get an accidental discharge to the foot to keep him off the chopper while the real men go do the job. Yikes.
I’m sure its totally normal to invite your drinking buddies to blow up a tractor
Let me guess….this douche nozzle is probably an “Oath Keeper”
Now, maybe my reading comprehension is way way off but…
Rounds went dud immediately after submersion?
Gotta try that myself
I’ve left cheap .22 rounds in my jacket pocket through the wash and all 50 fired fine. I think they were armscorr but not positive on that.
Been on more than one unexpected swim myself and I can personally report that 9mm, 10mm, .22lr, and .44 mag will all fire just fine after over half hour of immersion. Of course that’s real life observation and not the idiotic ramblings of a make believe “operator.”
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on TTAG. That’s saying a lot. We get it Elaine, you roll with operators when operating operationally. I hope this is just shitty fiction on your part as the alternative is you are incredibly gullible and have been interviewing mall ninjas.
Vetting sources, wow. MC must be Richard Marcinko.
You should really read his best work: Rogue Force Delta Green Team 7 Ninja Force Alpha II: The beginning
Not an Operator.
That word is widely used by people who have no idea what it means. Operators are extremely few
Are you a police SWAT team member? Not an Operator.
FBI Terrorist and Hostage Critical Incident team member? Not an Operator.
MARSOC Raider or Recon member? Not an Operator (bad as hell though, hat’s off to you.)
Navy SEaL? Not an Operator. (NAVSPECWAR SO maybe though and mad respect. Fuck cold water.)
Green Beret? Getting warmer but nope, still not an Operator.
Are you a member of the US Army’s 1st SFOD Delta and have completed Selection and the Operator Training Course? You’re an Operator.
And that’s it.
Soooooo, where does drunk tractor demolishing asshole land? If these are the types of specialists Elaine is constantly training under she’s getting fleeced.
Connect circuits between phone calls. Operator.
“Navy SEaL? Not an Operator. (NAVSPECWAR SO maybe…”
The team that took out Bin Laden (DEVGU ?) don’t qualify as operators?
Nope. They’re that SO I was referring to. But Operator has a specific meaning.
David Goggins. One cool operator.
Not sure I’ve ever heard of more of a badass guy.
Oh and I’ve shot my G-17 underwater. The rounds were bouncing off of a stump less than two feet away. And it cycled really slow. I could easily work the trigger faster than the slide.
Tom, CPO Goggins is one of the finest men produced by our nation. Just an exceptional human being in every way.
In military parlance, an operator, as he is exactly that Navy Special Warfare Operator (SO) I was referring to. But not strictly an Operator. It’s like calling a SEaL a soldier.
Or, if you happen to be manning a telephone switchboard… which you arrived at via time machine.
Or maybe also some railroad personnel.
Or the guy operating the Ferris wheel at the carnival.
So, am I correct in saying CSM Eric Haney is an operator? Read his book a few years back about the founding of Delta. Also, thanks to you and Tom for introducing me to CPO Goggins, looks like I’ll have to read his book over the break.
Yes.
“…about 15 feet that it will shoot and still keep some kind of horizontal directive motion before the hydraulic forces will make it veer to one side.”
Huh. Hydraulic forces?
Sure it’s not actually gyroscopic precession being greatly exaggerated by the projectile moving in a medium roughly 600 times more dense than it usually is?
Or was my stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night a waste of my money?
It would be interesting to see what a ball shot from a smooth bore would do under water. Probably a shotguns barrel wouldn’t be able to hold the pressure? ( Where’s Clark, hed probably know) Maybe a .410 out of an H&R because those barrels are pretty thick, I’d think a twelve gauge would have more water in the barrel and the pressures would be to great, I’m not a hydrologist so it’s a guess.
This drunk ‘operator’ who likes to shoot at his colleagues with his hi-power 1911 doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Do you want to see what happens when you shoot underwater?https://youtu.be/OubvTOHWTms
If this whole dumpster fire of a ‘story’ marks the way TTAG heads now, it will be really short journey.
The quintessential Mall Ninja. The late Bill Paxton in True Lies. Maybe somebody can post some clips so we can all see how it’s really done. Thanks. -30-
I love the skeet shooting with a revolver… back when I was younger and stupider I tried that with an AR, luckily we were on a public range, facing BLM hills that nobody ever goes on. It was gently pointed out to me (and my buddies), by somebody a lot smarter than us, that the bullet does come down eventually, in an arc, and there is a reason for the 4 rules.
Haven’t done that since. If you really do shoot skeet with a revolver please keep in mind there might be people at the end of your bullet’s trajectory that you cannot see.
Try shooting skeet with a slingshot. Real operator stuff.
I enjoyed this myself, and I’ll be looking forward to the next one.
Another vote “Dumbest thing I have ever read on the this site”
W. T. F. TTAG?
Tremendous interview and video, had me on the edge of my seat……Can’t wait for the next one.
Somewhere, a misguided soul intends to use this information to fight crime underwater….
TTAG has a former SF medic as a writer and this garbage makes it onto the page?
If it’s a joke, it’s in poor taste.
If it’s not, it’s seriously embarrassing.
Thank you, but if you are referring to me, I’m not a Green Beret. I was attached to some ODA’s, pulled missions, answered to their chain of command and I’m authorized to wear their combat patch, but I am not, nor have I ever been, a Green Beret. That means that, no matter who I was attached to, what job I did, what uniform I wore, who I answered to, who provided me with awards or who signed my NCOER, I am not a Green Beret, not an Operator, and never will be.
I’m just a medic, and I’m proud of my service as it is.
A thorough response spoken with the utmost integrity. Which does not detract from Cg123m’s point but drives his point home even more.
If you were SF you’d know that a green beret is the hat they wear not the name they go by. They are Special Forces. I’m kind of amused by you calling em that since you’re so keen on the whole “operator” hair splitting.
Thanks for clarifying, I will be honest I did think you were ODA but I never really looked that deep. Your writing and reporting has always been honest and humble, which reflects the values I have come to know and respect from (most of) that community.
The other posters are correct. Despite my mistake, you have completely validated my point. How on earth did garbage like this ever make it onto this page?
Miss Elaine. There are a lot of us out here who are not “operators”. We do have some pretty good stories and you can believe almost every word we tell you. Unfortunately, with some people, they’ve told the same story so many times, they start to believe it themselves. Like President Regan said, “Trust…but verify”. -30-
@Michael
I am absolutely interested in anyone who has a good story to tell. As long as it relates to guns and has some tongue in cheek to it. If you want to be interviewed shoot your email to Dan, he’ll forward it to me and we’ll figure it out. Since this series is a new idea I just figured I’d start with people I already know since it’s easier to bug them into being interviewed. 🙂
Oh god….so this article was not a joke?????
Of course Mr 8 year old Army commanding general assistant US Marshal FBI SWAT member wouldn’t give his name for us to check his credentials.
I believe him though, I’m not a keyboard commando like these other guys, I was a General Admiral Paratrooper SEAL.
I LOLed.
VSO Gun Channel did a series of videos on underwater shooting several years ago, with various guns including a 1911, a P226, a Glock, and a Beretta 92, and there might have been a USP too(?). Normal bullets have really crappy external ballistics in water, but I’m pretty sure all of the guns at least fired the first shot. Never fire an AR15 underwater as it will explode. I don’t think regular AKs fare well either. Water becomes a bore obstruction in barrels under 6mm caliber.
“I don’t think regular AKs fare well either.”
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ak+47+underwater+slow+motion
If not made up, this supposed guy is a total phony douche. What a waste of time.
Miss Possum got my gun off underwater, and from the look on her face I think she had a tractor explode too.
if she’s been elusive, you should do something sexy to a tractor.
I had to stop reading the comments because it was all negative vs from the commentors. I learned early on and taught my kids, if you don’t have something good to say, don’t say anything at all.
I won’t waste my time.
I like understanding that a shot under water will only travel 15-18 feet before going to one side. Doubt I’ll ever need to shoot a perp, especially in water, but I’d prefer to be prepared and knowledgeable anyway.
Looking forward to part 2 and 3.
Don’t count on it, the several actual* tests I’ve seen have indicated that even rifle rounds only coast a couple of feet.
* actual = actually performed underwater instead of imagined by a drunk mall ninja
Funny story about that; rifles and handguns are totally incomparable underwater, although it depends a lot on how you’re doing what with what. Shooting into water, out of water, through water, etc, but mostly, it’s sub sonic versus super sonic, and supersonic rifle bullets may actually perform worse underwater than subsonic handgun bullets.
@Rob
I saw a great cartoon the other day. Guy returning a library book and saying to the clerk, “It’s so refreshing to read something entertaining and then not have to go through 20 pages of negative comments at the end.”
@Elaine
In this case, you should read them. All of them. You can ignore the ones going on about the demise of TTAG , or how you’re some liberal spy sent to discredit the gun community.
Focus on the large number of veterans who are embarrassed by TTAG’s endorsement of this article.
To be honest, one of my greatest gripes with TTAG has always been its disconnect with the veteran/military community. Robert Farago was notorious for writing veteran/military pieces without a shred of context or first hand (or even second hand) knowledge. I applauded his departure for this very reason.
JW Taylor has done excellent pieces on military culture and his experiences, and should be the forefront writer any time something military related is posted. He, or another experience veteran, should be consulted. He would have told you and your editor that the individual you interview was neither honest or an operator.
There are some wild stories out there from the SOF world, but even if everything this man says is true, to consider him a representative of the SOF community is an insult. I don’t recall ever seeing a post asking SOF to contact you for an interview, and I know for a fact there are some real killers who frequent this page. You might have gotten something really good if you had tried. You can get hung up on the definition of a true operator all day. There is a correct answer. But bottom line, you can’t even enter the conversation if you weren’t SOF of any sort. Military Police don’t qualify for that category.
You mentioned in your article that it is hard to get an “operator” to sit down for an interview. This is why. You don’t even know the definition of the word, and you don’t know the community. Why would anyone who has pride in their work and legacy, allow it to be ruined by being grouped in with this yahoo you just described.
If this was not an intentional joke, as it seems it was not, I can believe this was an honest mistake. If you want to actually have interviews with operators, you should put out a call to contact on this page, and then have JW vet the responses for accuracy. There are many ways to verify.
For full disclosure, I am not current or former SOF. I am a current active duty officer who currently serves in a combat arms position and served in a combat arms position as an enlisted servicemember. My perceptions, opinions and respect for the SOF community exists as a result of working for and with them both enlisted and commissioned.
Typical fiction from Elaine D.
Some trash never gets recycled
Having served over 21 years in the US Army I can testify that soldiers do things that I would never report, while I’m intoxicated. (Smile)
So basically this guy has a long history of negligent discharges in and around water.
Thank you for making gun guy look like morons.
So pissed that I devoted 11 minutes of my life to this article.
What. Did. I. Just. Read.
sums it up perfectly.
With an Operator : Shooting Under the Influenced
A lot of folk have said a lot of things here that I have to agree with. (Big Sigh)
Unfortunately, I think this particular piece is a representation of what I was worried that this place would turn into after changing of the guard. It reads like a dime store Special Forces book that I read once that was panned mercilessly in reviews.
I honestly wonder if the author is either trolling for reaction or has been duped by the interviewed person. I sincerely hope it is the latter. I’ve been fortunate enough to know many military folks from all branches over the years and including upper government branches. A few of these people were “at the tip of the spear” types. They were people to be respected, appreciated and in some ways perhaps, envied. Sure, they had some hilarious stories that were a little blackened around the edges but the stories made sense and I never felt that they were made up. It is true, crazy shit can happen in bad places. This piece feels very different to me. Very opposite of my conversations with Vets from all branches and conflicts from WW2 to present day.
Elaine, just stop. that was so bad…….I can’t…..even….i’m done
Drinking with guns and explosives never mix.
Not very professional.
this is beyond fucking stupid. this is just pathetic now.
This reminds me of those 5 cent crime novela in the 1950’s.
I remember why I quit reading TTAG for a while now
Can someone educate me…What gun is this?
“Para-Ordnance that I was carrying……. It was essentially a beefed-up Browning Hi Power, is what it looked like. But it was a 1911 platform; most of the parts were interchangeable. Some things weren’t because of the width of the frame”
HUH?
And carrying and unauthorized gun in CID…come on.
Elaine….you have got to be the worst….nevermind….I am going to The Firearm Blog and Ammoland…you guys….a true SNAFU.
ONE TIME AT BAND CAMP……
Now that’s funny.
Uhhhh …. April fools?
Seriously what the heck did I just read?
This article is some of the biggest horse shit I’ve ever read, you ought to be ashamed for posting it. If half of it is true it represents all that is wrong with our community. Seriously, are you trying to make us look like clowns? Honestly, I doubt I’ll revisit this site anytime soon for posting such an unprofessional bunch of garbage.
Don’t blame the author – crap gets published all over the internet every day. Blame the editor. Time and again, in the fall of organizations, publications, etc., people fail to understand that any intellectual endeavor only has so much capital to lose. You build a quality of character to your publications and people have the expectation of a certain level of seriousness. You turn it into made-up drivel from closeted liberals and you are badly damaging your clout. An “article” like this calls into question everything published on this site in subtle ways.
I honestly believe this operator crap is a joke. D is a democrat shill sent here to screw with you guys. This operator fellow is a tool!
Elaine is a democrat, don’t forget it. She is making a mockery of our veterans with this piece. I can’t believe she has been allowed to publish this bullcrap here. I think the management has been taken over by liberals and they are slowly trying to infiltrate into our mindsets. Don’t drink this koolaid Elaine is selling. She is a joke and a shill as stated earlier.
Are ALL operators douche bags, or just the fake ones?
I’m so glad to hear how we have a real honest to god revolver skeet shooter around. Double action at that! Wonder where he does his shooting? What a crock of shit! What happened to ttag? If this is the best they can come up with I’m gone. Someone better check the ownership of this page out. They are trying to make its readership look like a ship of fools. Elaine ain’t tricking me. Liberal from the top to bottom. She doesn’t care if they take our guns. Hell she would help em.
Para ordinance is not a beefed up browning HiPower . Military personel would carry ammunition that is enamel sealed against water damage also. This story is a load of crap. If this operator even exists he is either a liar or has found the perfect lap dog in Elaine. I kind of want to believe this guy is screwing with Elaine with his stories and she is gullible enough to believe it. Democrats are built that way. Either way this story is a load of crapola. Shame on the truth about guns for publishing such drivel.
You GOT TO BE KIDDING with this ass pirate !
Drinking and shooting, etc.
NOPE. LOSER. Dangerous LOSER.
Don’t give a rat’s patootie what he got to say.
Everything he’s said is in other articles too.
Screw Concubine Man, if Elaine wants to interview a real operator she should interview me. There is a reason for the O in opossum. And I do more fishing then shooting so that right there gives me an advantage on fabricating incidents of adventure. Elaine I don’t believe that guy when he said he snuck back in and shot a hole in the swimming pool, and I was treading water in an FBI training course and “forgot I had a gun” , that’s professional? I try to get along , that’s the possum way, and I hope I’m wrong in what I think you’ve done here with this article. If what I’m thinking is true then my respect for you is less then your respect for most of the readers here that comment. What I’m seeing is your making us out as buffoons willing to believe outlandish stories. Also, now that I’m on a role, for someone whom works in the mental health field you certainly seem to be offended easily, and what I think I see is you become quite defensive to others remarks. That’s not conducive in the field you say you work in, and I’m questioning your claims on that as well, as I have been for some time. I suppose we both get the elicited responses we wanted though? I don’t know. With that though I enjoyed this article as a tongue in cheek parody, it did lighten my day( the feelz, right) and I am looking forward to more of MC’s stories( when/ if, he gets back from Kandahar in a year or two). Peace, love and Keep on Truckin
LMAO, on me because I just won’t quit…. Okay Elaine, I’m thinking maybe this article was supposed to have at least one reply with,” that drunk nut shouldn’t have access to guns” ????? Please don’t keep me guessing because this possum goes nuts if it looks for a corner to shit in in a round room. Still pissed about the silver Prius, baby Groot Sig Sticker. For gawds sakes Robert tell us why.
Thank God someone is taking out Pool liners, Tractors and Pot plants for Murrica! Makes what I do pale in comparison. Bet dude has AIDS.
MC says any gun can fire underwater, “As long as there’s not any kind of atmospheric breach, meaning as long as you don’t have an air pocket in the barrel.”
Why would air in the barrel be a problem?
I thought water in the barrel would be a problem, not air, because water is so dense that it would act like an obstruction in the barrel and cause an overpressure situation if you fire the gun while completely underwater. Air in the barrel shouldn’t cause an overpressure situation, because air provides less resistance and compresses more easily, although I can see how it might affect accuracy to have the bullet traveling through both air and water in the same shot.
Also, when you come up out of the water with your weapon, Rambo style, you’re supposed to let the water drain from the barrel before shooting, according to every keyboard commando novelist who’s ever written an action novel! This includes the Tom Clancy novel I just finished reading, Power and Empire, written by Marc Cameron because Tom Clancy is dead now, so if Tom Clancy were still writing his own books, he’d have to be a zombie!), which has Jack Ryan Jr. making sure to drain the water from the barrel of his .45 when he emerges from a swimming pool to shoot the BG.
I don’t know? Maybe the bullet pushing water, then air, then water? Theys a bunch of u tube vids on shooting under water. I would think the large bores would probably fail quicker then like a 9mm. More water to push in a .45 ? I’m known to do some silly stuff, .223 will fire from an AK 7.62×39 , .410 H&R Pard will shoot a .44 mag. Tinfoil balls out of shotgun will kill a rabbit, wooden bullets made from dowels out of .44. But I’m not going to shoot under water to find out about that. I do know a guy in the army who Rambo styled an enemy combatant with an m16, can’t rember him draining the barrel or nothing. Actually a lot of stuff was on the short list at that time.
I think I’ve got it. This article is like Earl and his shotgun taking on the government forming new world order. Thanx Elaine, I sometimes get caught in the “echo chamber”
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