There’s been yet another incident of ignorance merging with a desire to undermine our Second Amendment rights resulting in financial attack on a prominent industry company. This time it’s one I consider the equivalent of church for gun owners: Gunsite Academy in Paulden, Arizona. Gunsite, which was founded by the late Col. Jeff Cooper in 1976 under the name American Pistol Institute, has found itself on the receiving end of anti-2A rhetoric last week from none other than Intuit, Inc., owner of QuickBooks small business accounting and management software.
This morning I chatted with Ken Campbell, Chief Operating Officer at Gunsite Academy. We started were all involved stories should; at the beginning.
A couple of months ago Gunsite decided to make a change to a new credit card processor, QuickBooks. It seemed to be a wise business choice at the time and may have been, had Intuit not chosen to go the way they did.
About ten days ago the Gunsite bookkeeper found herself on the receiving end of a phone call from QuickBooks. The company felt there was “trouble” because they had realized Gunsite sold knives and guns on their website. This, the QuickBooks rep said, meant sales weren’t face-to-face and “kids could buy them.”
Gunsite took the time to patiently, politely educate the rep on how FFLs work and explain the laws and processes of firearm sales. Once the process and regulations were laid out, the rep backpedaled, saying now that they understood the procedure, it was alright after all and business could continue.
Then, a week ago – May 11th, 2018 – Gunsite got another phone call from QuickBooks. This time it didn’t go as well. The software company informed Gunsite that they were immediately ceasing all business with them. Why? Because they sell and promote firearms.
At first blush this was frustrating news, but Gunsite figured it could be handled. Then the other shoe dropped: in addition to cutting business ties with Gunsite, QuickBooks/Intuit refused to release the money from credit card charges currently in process from sales that had already made.
This amounts to tens of thousands of dollars from not only purchases made in the Gunsite Pro Shop – including hats, shirts, bumper stickers, and coffee mugs – but also money that had been paid for classes taken on gun safety and marksmanship.
Yes, you read that right. Tens of thousands of dollars in sales of products and classes, paid for in good faith, that Intuit has refused to release. Instead, Intuit stated they would refund those monies to the credit card holders. That means revenue for everything from pens to five-day level 250 pistol courses had just became door prizes, provided free to people who had the benefit of the training and took home products, all courtesy of the Intuit’s largesse.
Ken Campbell is matter-of-fact about the issue: “It is their right in the republic to choose not to do business with us. In fact, I do not want to do business with them or any company that does not support the Second Amendment. The issue is their refusal to release our funds to us.”
Gunsite Academy is one of, if not the most respected firearms training academies in the country. If you’ve attended a class there, you know safety is their number one priority, which lends more than a slight a shade of irony to the situation. Intuit is intentionally hurting a business that’s actively working to promote and teach firearms safety.
Gunsite is now investing countless hours of time trying to track down purchasers and explain the situation so credit cards can be processed all over again. The most likely scenario is they will indeed lose thousands of dollars. Hopefully they’ll be able to recoup the bulk of the funds which were rightfully theirs that Intuit refused to turn process as agreed.
You can show your support by heading over to the Gunsite Academy website here and checking out the Pro Shop and class schedule. Their classes rock and their coffee mug is my favorite because it’s heavy and super-sized (what can I say, I’m a caffeine addict). Gunsite has returned to their prior credit card processing company, so sales will work as they should with funds going to Gunsite.
Intuit is headquartered in Mountain View, California, so their far-left attitude is less surprising even if it is utterly unprofessional (not to mention un-American). Intuit’s financial reach includes TurboTax, Mint, QuickBooks Self-Employed, QuickBooks, and a variety of payroll and credit card processing services, so you may be doing business with them and not even know it.
Author’s Note: If you attended Gunsite Academy in the past thirty days or purchased something from their Pro Shop, whether in person or online, please contact Susan Davidson, the Pro Shop Manager, at [email protected] or Rikki Newell, the Student Coordinator, at [email protected]. Thank you!
UPDATE: I’ve received a couple emails from Intuit as follows:
“While our policy is to not discuss specific customer information or scenarios, I can confirm that Intuit Payment Solutions helps small business customer process electronic payments. There are some types of businesses and transaction types that Intuit cannot process in light of rules imposed by our banking partners, and among those are firearms and weapons sales that are not face-to-face sales. In-person sales of firearms and weapons are not prohibited.”
Then, a couple hours later:
“I read your story online. To be clear, In-person sales of firearms and weapons are permitted under our payment guidelines. Our full policy for our merchants is located here: https://quickbooks.intuit.com/payments/legal/
I’m checking into the other charges not related to online gun sales.”
Author’s note (again): I replied to the second email and explained how firearms purchases work, letting Intuit know all buyers must complete a 4473 and pass a background check and firearms are NOT simply shipped to a private residence, only to FFLs. Gunsite already tried to explain this process to an employee at Intuit but I thought I would try one more time. We’ll see what they say.
Wow that SUX…boycott the scum.
This will be the last time I buy Turbotax.
I called their support line. They said they’d pass the message along that I was upset with their decision.
Call them and tell them. They have to pay people for 24 hour customer support and each call costs them $$. If enough of us call, they will get the message that this was inappropriate.
Good idea! Google “Ituit customer service number”. I called, person I spoke to was kind and helpful. She searched for gunsite academy in their system and saw one other complaint about the incident. Notated my account about my concern as well.
NO, no. Buy a copy of Turbotax and share it with everyone you know.
Yep, fuck them, I’ll do my taxes else where.
Whoops, edited a comment on the wrong article.
Heres a running list for those keeping score.
— OneFamily (Blacklisted infowars)
— Alibaba (Blacklisted infowars)
— Citiebank (Punishing gun owners, stores, and trampling rights)
–Honey (Blacklisted infowars)
–Classpass (Blacklisted infowars)
–Acer (Blacklisted infowars)
–Moen (Blacklisted infowars)
–Nike (Blacklisted infowars)
— Kroger (owns Fred Meyer stores) (Removed gun magazines form store shelves.)
–Wal-mart (stopped selling to under 21)
— Fred Meyer (stopped sellling to under 21)
–Dick’s Sporting Goods (stopped selling Ars)
— Facebook (Anti-gun, anti-freespeech, liberal cesspool)
— Google (Anti-gun, anti-freespeech, liberal cesspool, private arm of the fed gang.)
— Twitter (Anti-gun, anti-freespeech, liberal cesspool)
–Symantec
– LifeLock
— Reddit (Nuked all gun and drug related sub reddits)
– Hertz
– Avis
– Budget
– TrueCar
– North American and Allied Van Lines
– Delta Airlines
– United Airlines
– MetLife
– SimpliSafe
– Paramount Rx
– Republic Bank
– First National Bank of Omaha
– Enterprise Holdings (Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Alamo Rent-A-Car, National Car Rental)
– Best Western
— Wells Fargo – Cut ties to tactical vision sales.
– Wyndham Hotels
— Intuit tax services
Ive had decent personal tax return compilation with taxact.com for several years now. They used to be better but still good enough.
How is this not theft?
More to the point, how is this not an obvious violation of the contract they signed with the merchant? If Gunsite has a good lawyer, he should be suing Intuit for the value of the withheld funds, plus damages and penalties.
The contract seems to include the prohibition against non face-to-face sales in the Acceptable Use Policy — that being said, once Gunsite Academy completed a sale based on Intuit’s accepting the transaction, Intuit should not expose Gunsite to damages based on its de facto waiver of the clause.
I use TaxAct for that very reason.
This. It’s gonna suck finding a new tax-software service, but it’s gonna suck way worse when I can’t buy guns via credit card so fuck those clowns at Intuit.
Not gonna lie, I’m going to laugh the day California did into the ocean if I’m alive to see it.
Yes They’ll have fun when there at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean What a disgrace I would sue them for loses, damages and the inconvenience to buyers. I won’t be using any of the companies that don’t work with gun and outdoor companies.
Please remember that there are a LOT of conservative minds here in California. A number of them are suing the state over sanctuary areas, restrictions on ammo sales (only via FFL holder), limit on how many guns per month may be purchased, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum! In addition, we have quite a contingent of liberals, independents, libertarians, and constitutionalists, who are very irate over what the state has done thus far. A number of counties have voted to reject sanctuary status, to comply with federal laws, and to secede from the state. Many people seem to forget us when they hope the state will fall into the ocean and take the people with it.
Can’t they be sued for this?
Breech of contract seems highly likely to me. Of course, I’m not a lawyer in any sense, so we’ll have to see what they say.
There is simply no way I can see Intuit’s move as valid, moral, or legal.
I believe you’re correct. They should be civilly liable for all moneys up an until they canceled their contract.
If anybody refuses to pay for goods and services rendered, they’re also facilitating theft by fraud.
You might not have to boycott them. When the lawsuits are done, they might not exist anymore.
Could fall under Federal wire-transfer laws. Of course, the way the Feds have been acting over the last 10 years (at least) that might be a lost cause.
Hope Gunsite takes them to the cleaners.
I would certainly think Intuit should be legally responsible for any and all losses. After all, having bought their product, Gunsite relied on that product to do their business as was promised. I would certainly believe the liability should be on Intuit!!!
Everyone is jumping to conclusions. Boycott Intuit, for sure. But what will happen, and whether Intuit is liable for any damages, will probably come down to exactly what is written in their Terms of Service. And whether Gunsite fully read and planned for those Terms of Service before they clicked the buttons that signed them up for the service. Not to be a negative nancy, but Gunsite seems a little bit to blame for this…if you’re going to entrust an Internet service with thousands of your business’s dollars, shouldn’t you be VERY diligent and ask LOTS of questions before signing the dotted line? Like, perhaps, “do you have any restrictions regarding firearms sales or processing payments for a Second Amendment-oriented company?”
Many comments here by people who have never read a service contract. I have, having had my own business.
Service contracts usually are written by the service provider; you take ’em or leave ‘m. Normal boilerplate language includes something along the lines of: service provider can alter the terms of service at any time. You have no recourse except to either drop the service provider, accept the new terms of service, or sue.
(Read the service contract with, for example, your cable provider or bank)
While Gunsite can indeed sue for monies owed, it would be up to whoever handles the suit (arbiter or court) to decide just which, if any, monies are owed by Intuit.
And you can ask all the questions you want of the service provider. When they change policies, they are within their rights to do so, by signed contract. What was said earlier is no longer of any interest to anyone, including a court.
No, I’m not a lawyer, but I am literate, and have dealt with service contracts. Many salesmen have commented on the time I take reading a contract. They make for some very interesting reading.
And there’s a reason why (at least here in AZ) why, when you make a major purchase, you have to initial so many paces in the contract to say you have at least been told what you are signing. The reason: most people do not read the contracts, and have no idea what they are being legally held to.
But that little “[service provider] may alter the terms of this contract at any time” means what it says.
Don’t they have to send you a revised copy and have you sign it? I get a lot of “we updated are whatever please sign and acknowledge that you read it” emails. I figure the initial phone call would go a bit in court
That likely depends on the state. However, in most contract law, even if it states that the terms and conditions may change at ANY time, that isn’t legally enforceable. What can happen is they can change, but they have NO affect until the new terms and conditions are agreed to. That said, refusing to agree to the new terms and conditions is often perfectly valid to void the contract. But up until it was voided (or changes agreed to), all original terms and conditions applied.
Just because a company wants to rake you over the coals and you’ve signed something doesn’t mean it is legal. You can’t legally agree to commit illegal acts. Many things that seem like they could be legal aren’t. Non-disparagement causes are flat out illegal, but MANY contracts and end user agreements include them. Completely unenforceable. Which doesn’t stop law suits and states that do not have anti-SLAPP statutes can be expensive to defend those frivolous suits in (SLAPP stands for Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. Basically it is a lawsuit to “shut someone up”, rather than suing for REAL defamation/libel/slander).
In the case of Intuit here, if the contract originally signed DOES include a provision that internet sales of firearms is against the TOS, then there really is nothing Gunsite Academy can do. Intuit doesn’t need to legally release the funds. If Intuit didn’t like it and it wasn’t in the TOS, then Intuit is in breach of contract. Hinges on that.
Also as much as I despise Intuit for this move (I’d dislike them if they simple cancelled the contract and finished processing payments, but holding the monies is a serious douche move), suing them at best might get treble damages. Which I assume isn’t nothing, but maybe I am naïve in how much business Gunsite Academy does, but probably isn’t more than a few tens of thousands of dollars (Intuit probably wasn’t holding more than 1-3 days of transactions). That doesn’t Gunsite isn’t screwed hard, it might be. The point I am getting at is Intuit probably wouldn’t be liable for more than a couple of hundred thousand. For a multi billion dollar company. That’s not going to sue them in to the ground. And the lawsuit itself might cost more
They have to follow the contract. If the contract allows them to change the conditions, usually it doesn’t need your signature. You already signed it,allowing them to make said changes. It does need them to contact you, which Quicken did in this case. Maybe not in writing, but they did nonetheless. If the contract doesn’t specify in writing,that’s withinthe terms of the contract.
Matt: I don’t think you understand contract law as well as you think you do. The average layman’s understand relies on logic, which any lawyer will tell you is simply wrong.
The contract is what rules, not logic. You’re idea that the service provider’s right to change the terms at any time isn’t legal is just wrong,of it’s in the contract (which I will bet is what happened).
While certain “contracts” are actually not legal (“shrink wrap” contracts,for example. and those which purport to negate bailment), a service contract is legal, as long as it meets the normal rules for such contracts. And that includes the right of the provider to change the rules at any time.
IANAL, but I don’t know of a state where that’s illegal. Can you educat eme on that?
The Acceptable Use Policy DOES include a prohibition against MOTO transactions. Gunsite could argue that, by accepting the transactions, QB waived that clause,
Sued?
They should be arrested for larceny and wire fraud at the very least.
They will be so sued.
I hope Gunsite can sue them back to the stone age.
So much for my account on Intuits View my paycheck.
It will be gone tomorrow.
Since when don’t I have permission to edit my own replies here?? I still had plenty of time to correct spelling. Somethings wrong here??
Do you restrict cookies and javascript and other things? That’s the most likely ordinary cause. Of course, there can be bugs too, but they are less common.
Gunsite cannot sue for more than the damages caused by the breach of contract, i.e., the money lost. Since that is only “tens of thousands of dollars,” I have a feeling Intuit will survive it, and even the attorney’s fees bill if the contract contains and attorney’s fees clause.
You’re forgetting a little thing in civil law called ‘punitive damages’. There’s also a thing called ‘trebling’ where in many jurisdictions if the actions that damaged another party are willful and intentional the court must award triple the actual damages. Legal fees are also frequently awarded as well.
Mark N.,
Gunsite Academy’s damages should also include the expenses they incurred (employee time) trying to recover funds from their customers.
Thus, Gunsite Academy’s damages should be:
all reversed charges – recovered funds + employee expenses to recover funds
Sounds like a clear breach of contract lawsuit. They might also see whether this runs afoul of any state or federal financial regulations.
“[service provider] can alter the terms of this contract at any time.”
Boilerplate in service contracts.
Doesn’t matter, no one can alter to contract to state; we are keeping your money.
The Acceptable Use Policy, which is part of the contract, explicitly states that MOTO firearm and weapons sales are prohibited.
” The Acceptable Use Policy, which is part of the contract, explicitly states that MOTO firearm and weapons sales are prohibited.”
If I remember correctly, there is a court approved theory of contracts that if one party operates outside the contract, and the other party accepts the benefit, the contract has been de facto modified. Neither party can then claim the other is in breach. Thus, it would seem that Intuit routinely processing MOTO transactions is an effective modification, the actual terms of the contract notwithstanding.
Attorneys weigh in here.
Wouldn’t this be an easy breach of contract case against Intuit? I’m not familiar with the fine print in that kind of financial services contract, but refusing to release funds that customers agreed to pay?!?! It seems like either the credit card companies or Gunsite should have legal recourse on this.
Reach of Contract? Fraud?
It is hard to believe that Gunsite doesn’t have a slam dunk case against them.
I believe Inuit is going to be facing criminal charges as well as civil liability.
Criminal charges can only be brought up by the government (by definition). The government is not about to do that.
I’m not an attorney, but this stinks to high heaven. I would think a law suit should be in order. They can cancel their services, but the certainly can;t with hold any funds due to Gunsite.
Thanks for the heads-up, Ms. Ainsworth.
Gunsite is one of the best training academies in the US, with an incredible staff and curriculum. They literally wrote the book on firearms safety.
It’s been almost 2 decades since I attended a course there. Looks like I’m due for another one.
Plus, they are an absolute class act. Check this out:
“To further positive changes of the safety and security in our Republic’s schools, Gunsite will offer a free five (5) day 250 Pistol Course (tuition) at our northern Arizona training facility to School Superintendents, Assistant Superintendents, and School Board Presidents.”
https://www.gunsite.com/gunsite-saddened-angered-violence-schools/
Only two “I”s?
Step it up narcissist.
Gunsite certainly has grounds to sue the pants off of Intuit
That could be construed as theft as well as fraud, misrepresentation, theft by scheme, any number of interstate and telephone crimes as well.
Any lawyers here to enlighten us ?
Who is a competitor to quickbooks or quicken?
Quicken is no longer owned by Intuit. They’ve split into a different company.
For business accounting, I used AccountEdge instead of QuickBooks, though I doubt it’s as good.
Well another company i wont do business with..i need to keep a spreadsheet!
Still going to cost them $$$ if they sue (which I think they should) for legal fees etc, putting a burden upon them for simply trying to recoup legitimate purchases. Of course this won’t make any kind of mainstream news but potential customers of Intuit should be made aware of their sleazy policies.
Can you sing it!
LAWWWWWSUIT!
Gunsight will after they are done with the courts, will be issuing free classes for any that show and the targets will be made of hand hammered gold from Italian artisans!
lets all try and count how many laws intuit just broke and a few constitutional ones too!
I cut my teeth reading Col. Jeff Cooper when he wrote Cooper On Handguns in Guns & Ammo in the ’70s. I was a young teen then. Mostly, because of him, I carried a 1911 .45 ACP my entire career. Never went to Gunsite, but I did have the privilege of meeting the gentleman, and his lovely daughter Lindy, once at the S.H.O.T. Show. He graciously signed all his books for me. And I had them all. Looking at them now. To hell with Intuit. I don’t do business with them, but I have a friend who does. Owns a property management company. About 500 properties around Tallahassee. He owns lots of firearms. His phone is about to ring.
I’d throw in a few bucks if they started a crowdfunding campaign to sue QuickBooks. You can’t just decide to arbitrarily deny people a payment that has already been agreed upon. Your ONLY job as a clearinghouse is to make sure that funds get from one party to another successfully. Hell, I would be they’re even criminally liable at this point. I hope whoever made this decision at QuickBooks ends up penniless and behind bars.
You and me both.
Hey Marty! Don’t know if you ever saw my reply to your invite, but I’ll repeat it now. Thanks. I would love to hunt the American West. However, I can’t be away for more than a couple of days at a time. My parents are 89 and 90 and Dad is wheelchair bound. Spend a lot of time taking care of them. They depend on me. Drop in daily. Dad has a doctor’s appointment Thursday. Have to drive him. After all, they took care of me for 18 years. My turn now.
When did Gunsite relocate to Commiefornia? When I attended they were in Prescott, AZ. Granted, they were called “Gunsite Raven” in those days(early 1980s).
“Gunsite Academy in Paulden, Arizona. Gunsite, which was founded by the late Col. Jeff Cooper…”
Cooper was never a colonel although he called himself that. A telephone colonel (lieutenant colonel) he was. However, he didn’t even have right to use even that title since he did not retire from the military but was rather drummed out. BTW, his first name wasn’t Jeff either. Lot’s not right about the guy but people hung on his every word. Still do. No, despite what the “colonel” said, the 1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked. J. M. Browning didn’t even design it with a thumb safety. That was added on at the behest of the U.S. Army in particular the cavalry in order to temporarily put the gun in safe or safer state while reholstering on horseback.
Yeah, I know, what’s the difference? Well there isn’t any to most people but ask a full bird colonel how they feel about a light colonel signing his name colonel.
“He resigned his commission in 1949, but returned to active duty during the Korean War, where he was involved in irregular warfare, and was promoted to lieutenant colonel.” -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
I am fairly sure it was the grip safety and not the thumb safety that the army insisted on having added.
No, it was the thumb safety. Browning’s personal 1911 does not have a thumb safety.
Jim B, I believe that the nickname “Jeff”, was taken from his father. It may not have been his legal name, but if you image search the old photos of him and the captions on them, you’ll see he was called “Jeff” since his early childhood. It’s what his family called him.
I have only seen his actual signature as “Jeff Cooper”, which is how he signed his books, and when he taught at Gunsite, he was listed as Lt. Colonel Jeff Cooper. You can still find those bio pages that link back to the American Pistol Institute on the web. In fact, he is still listed as that on the Gunsite About page today.
“Gunsite was founded in 1976 by Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, author, columnist, professor, WW II and Korean War combat veteran.”
Browning redesigned the 1911at the Army’s request. The Army and Marine Corps then taught that the firearm be carried exactly as Cooper described for the next 90 years. It is certainly how Cooper was taught.
It is also extremely unfair to say that he was “drummed out” of the Marine Corps. He finished his term of enlistment, was not picked for Colonel, and it was an ‘Up or Out” Marine Corps back then. I think if you will remember the political environment of the Marine Corps post Korea, you’ll reconsider why he was not picked up. But regardless, there’s no way someone should consider him as being forced out.
Although he was certainly not right about everything, he was foundational in our current model of pistol shooting. He codified and promulgated much of what we consider the basics of the modern era. Shooting owes a lot to him.
jwtaylor,
Cooper signed his articles in Guns & Ammo Colonel which he never was. Notice that Oliver North uses Lt. Colonel which he has a right to since he retired.
The military did not have personnel carry the 1911 cocked and locked. I don’t know where you got that but my father carried one through two wars where he actually served in combat. The 1911 was to be carried chamber empty except when its use was imminent. When I was a kid one of our au pair’s boyfriend was a marine and could chamber a round so fast on the draw you couldn’t see him do it. He could even do it one handed. When I was a kid I thought the guy was some sort of magician since like any good magician he wouldn’t show us kids exactly how he did it. Of course I learned but it was still impressive.
Yeah, it’s unfair to say Cooper was drummed out when he tried to re-enlist and they told him to take a hike but then again, I never thought Cooper was exactly fair.
You mean that Jeff Cooper was passed over by the same military that court-martialed Billy Mitchell, court-martialed Jackie Robinson and drummed out Ulysses S. Grant? The same military that made that douchebag Michael Hayden a General? The same military that ignored the ranting of Nidal Hassan and then, after he massacred real Americans at Ft. Hood, refused to prosecute him for terrorism, calling the shootings “workplace violence?” That military?
Well, I guess that the judgement of the American military brass is clearly beyond reproach. Clearly.
Ralph, I am not talking about military competency but rather about someone that used a rank he wasn’t entitled to use, i.e., Cooper. If you want to say the military is incompetent, fine. That has nothing to do with Cooper’s dishonesty. The military may well be incompetent but remember that they fight other militaries that for the most part are more incompetent. Militaries are not Apple or Microsoft.
Oh, it is news to me that Grant was drummed out. As I recall he was the first lieutenant general since Washington and then became Commanding General of the Army before becoming president of the US in 1868. But I guess to you becoming president is being drummed out.
At the beginning of the Civil War, Winfield Scott was commanding general of the army. His rank was Lt. General (one rank below the Commander in Chief – the president), as in second-in-command.
In “the day” it was common to unofficially refer to Lt. Col and Col as “colonel”. It was a running joke about “telephone colonels”.
Jim B – thanks Nancy
What did you ever do? What was your branch of service. There are NO point in YOUR column for dear old dad’s service and the 2nd hand stories. Your French BS babysitters boyfriend laatee fing daa.
I don’t know about most of you folks, but I can tell you for certain you didn’t address a Lieutenant JG as ‘Lieutenant JG’, a Lieutenant Commander as ‘Lieutenant Commander’ or a Rear Admiral as ‘Rear Admiral’
It was Lieutenant, Commander, and Admiral – no one that I EVER served with was ever stupid enough to say it otherwise.
So it is of my opinion that if he was called ‘Colonel’, it was because that is how it was done when he was in. I would think that only someone that wasn’t EVER in the service would make the mistake in calling a Lt Colonel, ‘Lt Colonel’ to his face – and probably only ever do it once
Well said, I feel that what I learned from the man, albeit from reading his works, played no small part in my surviving several armed encounters. I did meet him once. Wish that I had the privilege of studying under him. His work on the 1911 and the scout rifle is definitive. Those two weapons, and a quality .22 LR handgun, are probably all the firearms I really need. Not all I want though! Every Southerner needs a quail gun!
Uh, are you a dumbass? I spent a few years in the military. All Lt. Colonels are addressed as Colonel. The “Bird Colonels” were once Lt. Colonels and were addressed as Colonel. Why would they resent it? What do you care what first name the man used? That’s petty. Drummed out? The military always downsizes after a war. Thumb safety, or grip safety? I’ve heard both, but since the army still had horse calvery at the time, and since a cocked and unlocked 1911 flopping around at the end of a lanyard might be prone to discharge, I’m betting it’s the grip safety the army wanted. Condition 1, 2, or three? Yeah, condition 3 was dictated. You really believe that survived the front lines. Let’s see, I’m going to carry M-1 rifle locked and loaded, but not my 1911A1. Just how stupid is that?
Just deleted my Mint account.. no longer going to be sending turbo tax 150 bucks every year.
That’s a real shitty move.. hope they get sued.
Tax Act is cheaper. Probably not as polished though.
Could not find a consumer contact on the Intuit website, so I sent the following to Intuit Media Relations: [email protected]
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
Good morning,
Could not find an email address for customers to directly communicate with Intuit, so yours was the best I could do. I trust you will forward my comments to the appropriate staff.
I have used Quicken and Turbo Tax since they were first released. Always satisfied. However….no more, ever.
I am informed that Intuit is refunding purchase price to customers who bought items and training through Gunsite Academy. The affected customers are those whose purchases through Gunsite Academy the processing of which (credit card) had not been completed at the moment Intuit informed Gunsite of refusal to do business with a legal company engaged in legal activities. Since this is no different from bakers refusing to make wedding cakes for a gay couple, I am appalled at Intuit’s infidelity to social responsibility.
Forthwith, I will inform all my contacts (each of whom can influence six people, and those can influence six people [a geometric progression]) of your exclusive and discriminatory business practices. Whether a member of a “protected group”, or not, isolating and humiliating (not to mention again the facilitated theft) an honorable company (Gunsite Academy) is a violation of human and civil rights merely because a business has an opinion contrary to your own. This is thought suppression at its base; the most egregious kind.
– – – – – – – – – –
Quicken is no longer an Intuit product. It’s been spun off.
“Quicken is no longer an Intuit product. It’s been spun off.”
Know that. The product was named to indicate longevity of being a customer, from way back when.
Wow.
While we appreciate your spirit and sentiment, that letter was a raging dumpster-fire.
You didn’t actually send that to anyone, did you?
If so, the POTG respectfully request that you leave all future written communications with the outside world to those of us who are actually familiar with the English language.
Thank You.
Sent the note to the marketing department – the only email address I could find.
I only wish the note was a dumpster fire. Make ’em feel the burn.
At least he wrote to Intuit. People whose handle is “Your Mom” don’t speak for POTG. Why don’t you suck on something you pompous blowhard.
So my plans for the weekend just changed up a bit…. now I am going to spend the time Exporting my data from Quickbooks so I can cancel my account with them
Hopefully, when customers find the credit on their statements, they’ll call Gunsite and make it right.
I’m glad I switched to HR block software 2 years ago. Cheaper and easier to use.
Love to see an attorney do this pro bono.
Just finished a Gunsight class in March! They are indeed a class act!!
Is there anything we 2nd amendment supporters can do to ENCOURAGE Intuit to release the money to Gunsite?
I would like to believe that anyone who took a class at Gunsite is classy enough to make sure they pay for the class and the store items!!
Not only a breach of contract, but, to me, that sounds like outright theft, since Gunsite had already provided the service or goods and QuickBooks is refusing to release the funds that rightfully belong to Gunsite.
Yep.
This is one for the appropriate federal regulators to prosecute.
I’ve heard nothing but good reports about H&R Block software. I’m done with Turbotax.
That can’t be legal. They don’t have the right yo those funds. I hope Gunsite sues them.
Well I said it before and I’ll say it again.
According to the Libertarians you have the right to not do business with people. Its freedom of choice. So intuit books has every right to separate itself immediately from Gunsite Academy. Of course this does hurt gun Site Academy.
But I guess that’s okay with the libertarians who apparently don’t believe in the morality of a gentleman’s business agreement, like keeping your word.
Just as it was ok for economic discrimination against black people for 400 years, so I guess now it’s okay for you to have economic discrimination against gun companies or the Firearms business in general.
Libertarianism.
Strawman.
As long as discrimination is voluntarily acted on, with no government force, then it’s ok.
So say the Libertarians.
Before slamming libertarians you should actually understand their position, which you do not. Nobody is claiming Intuit doesn’t have a right to terminate their business relationship. But:
1) They have a contractual obligation to release funds already charged unless they’re asserting the charges are fraudulent
2) Intuit’s right to disassociate from Gunsite in no way negates others’ right to disassociate from Intuit
So Chris, do you NOT discriminate? Do you ever chose a burger instead of chicken? Do you choose a woman to sleep with instead of a man, or perhaps a XE or ZE? Those are all forms of discrimination – an individual choice, based on your personal preferences. As long as you are not using the power of the government, or taxpayer funding, to enable your choices – those choices a completely legitimate. You are welcome to sleep with a ZE. It only becomes a problem when you are forcing other people to participate in your choices, through the use of government force or money (the same thing, really). So, please, stop with the childish victimization cries of discrimination – they’re getting old and tiresome. In this case, as was already explained to you, the issue is not that Intuit does not want to do business with gun companies – they are perfectly welcome to do or not to do business with whomever they want to, but the fact that they are breaking the terms of the contract while the contract lasted. I also doubt it that Instuit has refunded the fees that it charged Gunsite Academy.
For some reason white libertarians are uncomfortable with the comparison of white owned gun businesses being discriminated against, just like blacks who were discriminated against.
Both are voluntarily actions. They was Jim Crow and the Black Codes. But there was no such laws against doing business with black customers. White owned banks simply refused service.
Black people historically got their guns and ammunition through mail order. Direct delivery to their homes by US mail. But you can’t do that anymore can you?
If a financial institution breaks a contract then I hope the gun business takes them to court. Assuming the gun business can afford law suit.
But don’t financial lenders have a right to change the rules when they choose???? Libertarians say that too.
Libertarians believed in letting murderers and rapists come here unfiltered. They see no need for national borders. Libertarians have a utopian view of the world. They are no different than any Liberal or Leftist.
If the firearms industry is destroyed or crippled in this country, as long as it’s done voluntarily, and not by government decreed, LIbertarians are ok with that.
If that makes you uncomfortable then you might be lying to yourself, when you say open borders are a good thing in public.
You have a chip on your shoulder? Go take a cold shower. And, by the way, learn English.
Alexander
“I was born a poor black child”.
And I own a Hi Point.
Congratulations on owning a Hi Point. Being born black or poor is not a detriment, except in your mind only. In America, so hated by the Progressives / socialists, you have an opportunity to make of yourself much more than anywhere else in the world. Being poor and black did not deter Clarence Thomas (I will not mention Obama as an example because maggots grow from all kinds of manure). So don’t blame your chip on not having everything handed to you on a platter. And don’t blame your poor grammar skills on the society. Be an adult and be responsible for yourself, your strengths and your weaknesses; stand on your own feet.
Libertarians believe in private property, contracts, and basic ethical behavior.
What Intuit did by refusing to process payments for purchases that had already been completed (product paid for and delivered) and “refunding” it was, in effect, taking someone else’s commercial property and giving it away for free. At the very least it’s screamingly unethical, and may also be criminal fraud and breach of contract.
No libertarian (small-L or large-L) is okay with that kind of crap. Progressives, on the other hand…
Slap ing
If private Financial companies run by socialist Progressive billionaire hypocrites, destroy the private sector firearms business, then we will not have liberty in this country.
The Libertarians who think this way are no friends of Liberty. The banks might be acting without government orders but they’re still working with the same like minded government that wants to take away Liberty from ordinary citizens.
I don’t say this lightly. If all you care about is dildo sex and having legal marijuana intoxication, that is to say “put things into your bodies”, then California, Colorado, and Washington State are utopias for you. Gun civil rights are going away in those states.
I grew up in California. The white homosexuals and pot head legalization crowd were NEVER supporters of Gun civil rights. They run the state now. And their elected leadership has not changed.
Governor Reagan is dead. And the Mulford Act is still on the books. When they were asked the state elected leadership said they would not repeal the law. So the “torch of tyranny” passes on to the elected open homosexuals and pot heads.
It sounds like your experience in California is distorting your view of libertarianism. I know there are people who believe libertarianism is just “socially liberal, fiscally conservative.” But that simplistic formula is not what the founders of the LP believed and it’s not what the informed among us believe now. Some of us are even traditional Bible-believing Christians.
“If private Financial companies run by socialist Progressive billionaire hypocrites, destroy the private sector firearms business, then we will not have liberty in this country.”
This idea needs careful review and analysis. Underneath it all, it seems that the logical action is government action to stop private businesses from making financial decisions based on things like market share, consumer segmentation, sell through, and stratification of income sources.
Then, the statement makes no allowance for the beauty of free enterprise: constructive destruction. Where one seller flees a market, the opportunity arises for a different seller to fill the need. Indeed, POTG and affiliates/friends, could, if they choose, establish their own robust financial services companies.
We seem to be complaining that we are helpless victims of leftist corporate entities. Maybe we are just too dependent on someone else.
Inuit screws the American taxpayer for hundreds of billions of dollars by keeping the tax law complex resulting in Americans paying for overpriced software. It should be shut down and its owners be forced to fill out meaningless complicated paperwork for the rest of their natural lives and afterlife.
This is the first I’ve heard of Intuit devising our tax laws.
Do you have a cite for that?
They certainly do hope the laws are never simplified, I can tell you that.
Nobody wants their livelihood to be changed,but that’s hardly the same thing.
He said “keeping the tax law complex.”
They can’t do it all by themselves, but I’d bet you anything you care to wager that they’re doing whatever they can to do exactly that.
I’ve used Turbotax for years. No more, and I’ve told them so.
“We are losing the private individual to the likes of Credit Karma, we should definitely screw over some SMB’s. Not like those guys can move over to other now affordable solutions. That should balance it all out.”
Royal Range USA in Nashville TN is proud to be partnering with Gunsite and will be hosting their courses in the near future! See our website or social media for more details. Royalrangeusa.com
I knew there was more than one reason why I use their products. Good for them for enforcing their policies.
Cryptocurrencies could be our solution to this.
What’s an Eskimo doing in California anyway. I thought those Intuits ate whales and chased polar bears
[email protected]
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
My email to him:
Subject: Parting ways.
Dear sir,
Your company’s actions regarding Gunsite Academy are deplorable. (Link below).
Failing to complete your legal obligations regarding ongoing transactions is just plain wrong.
I don’t care if you do not want their business. That is fine. However, childish behavior and emotional immaturity do not belong in business much less in social engineering. Good luck with that strategy.
As a longstanding customer I say good bye. I canceled my standing Turbotax order tonight … I am sure you don’t want my business, as well as most of the people I know.
Paul Sturtevant
PS – I have blind copied a few friends & family to get the ball rolling. Later I will make a more effective effort to let people know about this issue.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/05/kat-ainsworth/intuit-quickbooks-severs-ties-with-gunsite-academy-reverses-tens-of-thousands-in-credit-card-charges/
https://www.gunsite.com
To be fair, Clint Smith is a massive asshole.
And you brought this up here because … ?
No more Intuit products in my home. Lets boycott the rats in the same way we abandoned a chain sporting goods retailer.
I say “ Dick them.”
Everyone needs to start looking into cryptocurrencies. The private kind like Monero…. I do not know anything about the “private” ones even though I have very little in Bitcoin. I’d say gun owners and especially gun website owners need to seriously start looking, one hour to two hours a week and then hopefully in 2 to 3 months have a better understanding of what their options might be down the line.
I do know that Bitcoin is very, very traceable, even more than a bank is once you learn more about it.
But for now, usually need that first before can get the other ones.
Crypto currencies….LMAO…now there is a money sucking scam to get people involved in. Might as well just throw your money out into the street. Wake up people about these scams to take your money under s banner of you making money!!!
25+ years using their products but I will not support thieves.
Done with them.
This is another company I will never have anything to do with.
interfereing with interstate commerce
Would someone who is better at personal home finance than I am tell me who Quicken’s biggest competitor is? Likely whomever they are, they’re just as virtue signaling Progtarded as Intuit is, but it’s worth a shot.
The last Quicken version I bought was 2010. Clearly, it’s time to upgrade.
Thank you,
Chris
Ugh, never mind, Quicken isn’t owned by Intuit any longer. That’s what I get for not reading from top to bottom.
They have issues for being able to buy a knife online? This is the US not England. Do they want to add another letter to the BATFE? BATFE and Knives? Then have to fill out a 4473K? Are they going to add a block on their TurboTax form asking if there is a firearm in the house and if so they are not going to process the tax form? So they are going to stop processing credit cards for any bossiness that sells knives? amazon, Wally World, Home Depot, Lowes, etc? The fact they said it was due to online knives sells leaves them open to having to close those other accounts also to appear they didn’t single out Gunsite due to an illegal breach of contract it seems. They seemed to have started down a very slippery slope without thinking what is at the bottom.
Their (Quicken’s) policies have changed, as they are allowed to at any time. They will no longer process payments for any gun purchases done face-to-face.
Now having said that, I will ask a question to all here: how,exactly, is Quicken to determine which charges are for such transactions?
Answer: they can’t, without doing further investigation.
Therefore, in order to comply with their change in terms of service, they will withhold all payments until they can make that determination.
Far too many people do not understand how business works.
Any lawsuit at this point would be useless, because neither side knows exactly how this will go forward. IANAL, but given what we know about the the change in terms of service, Quicken would still be ‘on the hook’ for non-firearm and -knife purchases. But which ones are those? Obviously, Quicken would need copies of invoices to make that determination. And, legally (AFAIK), Quicken is on the hook for any and all costs Gunsite would incur for providing that information.
As well as any costs incurred for borrowing any money this withholding of funds necessitates. And any other costs the withholding makes necessary.
So, I recommend sitting back, grabbing some popcorn, and watch the show. It could get interesting.
5/11 Lone Wolf Distributors paid a QuickBooks invoice from one of our contractors (FRA) for $150K. On 5/15 FRA was notified that their QuickBooks payments account was being terminated for violating their Terms of Service. Both LWD and FRA attempted to work with QuickBooks to get our funds returned but got the complete runaround, the saga continues…
LWD having an awesome time at the Brownells show along with 50+ other manufactures. JR asks, do we (as a 2A whole) really have time for this Intuit BS?
This happened to us a couple weeks ago with Wells Fargo! They gave us 30 days to find a new merchant services provider but are still holding funds AND held funds with no deposits into our account for over 2 weeks. They shut us down for a couple of hours – it was crazy.
Our Web Host also threatened to shut us down if we didn’t find a new one in 48 hours.
I have new hosts and providers if anyone is looking for new places to go – contact me!
I thought the CEO of Wells Fargo was taking heat from the liberal teacher’s unions back in April because he refused to end their long term relationship with the NRA? Have they caved in to the teachers and are now cutting off gun related transactions too??? Please let me know because we have our business accounts with them and I and my parents have brokerage accounts with Wells Fargo Advisors and if they have gone anti-gun I am going to move those millions and mail a letter to and let them know why!
Oh and last but not least vote for politicians who support school vouchers and privatization of public schools. That is the best way to BREAK the teachers unions!
I just sent an email to Intuit statin that I’m ceasing use of their products and that I will never puchase another product from them.
Expensive lawsuit. No potential for recovery of fees. Eight hundred miles away in a leftist court in a leftist county in a leftist state in a leftist appeals circuit. MUCH Easier and Waaayyy cheaper to collect from the documented users
Unless the loss is north of $40k it sounds like a wash to me
Another short sell opportunity.
This might not be Intuit’s fault, it might because whatever big bank that they rely on (like Citibank) has imposed anti-2A rules, which are cascading through the whole economy. The big banks are incredibly powerful, and THAT is the really scary part of this. The NRA should start up their own bank and issue their own credit card that rivals Visa and MasterCard. We should all try to make ourselves independent from any company that is opposed to the fundamental rights that this country was founded upon. Hit them in the wallet, because that’s what they’re doing to us!
Unfortunately, their terms of service are pretty clear. There is a long list of items, including firearms not sold in person.
c) Permitted Use Policy. Merchant agrees that it will not conduct business in furtherance of any of the following businesses or business activities: illegal products or services of any kind; adult oriented products or services including video streaming, audio text; airlines; annual billing / sales; auto performance chips (fuel economy, etc.); bail bonds; bankruptcy attorneys; cable box de-scramblers; collection agencies or collection attorneys; credit repair / credit card protection; credit counseling, restoration or repair; dating services; drug paraphernalia; escort services; freight forwarders; gambling, gaming, lottery sales, grab bags, raffles, or sweepstakes; hair growth and or replacement products; import / export; internet “fulfillment houses” (aggregator, multiple merchants with same mid); lifetime guarantee products or lifetime memberships; loan modification or mortgage reduction services; mailing lists and personal information; pharmaceuticals non-face to face (including business to business); occult materials; online auctions; outbound telemarketing; personal enhancement products (teeth whitening, acai berry, etc); precious metal or stamps; pyramid sales; racism, violence, abuse, discrimination, or other immoral activities; rebate, refund or prize-based businesses; securities brokers; sports forecasting or odds making; telephone service, rechargeable, phone cards, VOIP; timeshares or future delivered services; travel, travel clubs, cruise lines; and any of the following business types where payment is made via the internet, mail order, telephone order or other card not present method: coin dealers / sales; firearms, weapons or fireworks; psychic readings; tobacco products or sales. Intuit maintains full discretion in determining whether or not to provide services to a Merchant irrespective of the underlying nature of the goods or services provided by such party.
I don’t believe is makes any difference at all. If Intuit accepted the charges, then they are responsible for those charges up until they cancel the contract. Any charges after the contract is cancelled, and Gunsite has been notified of the cancellation, they shouldn’t be responsible for. I’m guessing all charges were approved by Intuit at the time of the sale. If they were approved, they are responsible to pay them. I’m not an attorney (thank God), but it’s just common sense.
Where can you buy firearms online that you don’t have to go in person to have a background check done?
I’ve bought plenty online and every time it was shipped to an FFL near me, where I had to fill out a background check before I took it home…
Armslist.com has a number of guns being sold “face to face” as the result of initial offer “via the internet”. Legend has it that there are listings where people will ship directly to a buyer upon receipt of payment. I don’t cruise Armslist everyday, but the twenty or so visits over the last year turned-up none of those listings.
As a fire arm owner and live only 10 miles from gunsite, I believe I am going to have to support my local business and sign up for a class as well as buy stock in coffee mugs, t-shirts and what ever else I can find to help a local business that is doing the right thing, teaching firearm SAFETY. As for any Intuit products, well they won’t get any business from me again. I have my boys in an Oath Keepers Jr class, and they will be taking classes at gunsite as well.
There’s more to this than is apparent on the surface. This is all part of: “The ‘Corporate Campaign’ Against Our Second Amendment”:
http://www.trevorloudon.com/2018/05/the-corporate-campaign-against-our-second-amendment/
A service contract can say anything it likes, that doesn’t mean it’s enforceable in court.
All pro-2nd firearms organizations, training academies, etc should make their names things like “Harry’s Gun Safety Plus” etc.
Unlike the BS ‘gun safety’ groups out there right now, it would be more accurate.
Man, I hope Gunsite has some good lawyers. They’ll need em. Termination is one thing with holding cash like that is another. Maybe they can get their states attorney General involved or something. Discovery for this should be fun.
OK “Intuit” and “Quick Books” you lost my business FOREVER.
Ms. Ainsworth,
An excellent article about an underhanded and despicable situation.
Please proofread the second paragraph of this article. “Spellcheck” would be unlikely to catch this as the mistake IS an actual word but it is “out of context”.
This is an unfortunate but not unexpected incident. My hope is that Gunsite can get this resolved without resorting to legal action – but I wouldn’t count on it.
Yes, not a chance I will ever use TurboTax again, or any Intuit product. That they would drop Gunsite as a customer is scummy enough. Refusing to complete existing transactions was pure malice.
I service business computer systems. I think I’ll start telling my customers I won’t fix anything with an Intuit product on it.
The truth is Intuit’s policy is based on agreements with the Major Credit Card companies (Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover) and the associated banks involved. Intuit does not have a gun stance and this entire article ignores their very public Authorized Use Policy which clearly states as such. That policy has also been in place for at least a decade. Do a slight amount of research and don’t get embarrassed when fighting those idiots who actually want to get rid of guns.
People should stop using credit cards and only use cash. Without credit cards it would become obvious pretty quick how little a dollar is worth these days due to the rampant inflation of our currency by the PRIVATELY OWNED (by Jews) Federal Reserve. The same thing happened in Weimar Germany which is why Hitler and the Nazis started printing their own money instead of borrowing it from the Jewish international bankers, and tried to to exterminate the JEWS. It is also why the Zionist occupation governments of Britain and the US laid waste to Germany and drafted a bunch of hayseed farm boys most of whom had no idea WTF they were fighting for, just that Hitler was a madman and the “Krauts” were evil (because they read it in a Jewish owned newspaper) to go murder their German cousins.
If you look at who is always pushing the hardest to get rid of guns you will notice they are almost always Jewish, with names like Feinstein, Schumer, Bloomberg, Lautenberg, Ginsberg, et.al. They want to get rid of guns because they know that eventually the American people are going to wake up just like the Germans did and realize that they are being ROBBED, and with 300 million guns they will be shot down like dogs in the streets of America.
Intuit and all companies like them that do prevent a legal entity that follow the law from collecting money from products that were sold? What is this the USSR, Nazi Germany? I will not use their product in the future and have not supported many of the companies listed for years. I hope that Intuit lose the lawsuit that will follow and will be force to double the amount given to Gunsite. Intuit should not get away with it. EVER!!!
You’re all missing the real point here. QB mentioned their banking system policies. Follow the money.
This is just one small instance of massive financial manipulation being conducted globally.
As virtue, discipline and integrity decline, more and more are susceptible.
Corporate fascism.
Can intuit be prevented from operating their business in Arizona? Is a business operating in a way that is counter to public policy cause a SLAPP liability?
/Len
Previous post should have said, “Does a business” not “Is a business”. Here’s more.
In Arizona we conducted an emergency drill to deal with 400,000 refugees from California after the big one. After this, I would not be surprised to find the bridges destroyed or blocked – or the welcoming committee in the Reservation provided by Mr. Browning.
No doubt the entire world wide financial systems has to go, and that is partly what bitcoin is all about, as I understand it.
Its time to prevent corporations from engaging in politics entirely. They only have that right because we (mistakenly) gave it to them, and we can take it away.
/Len
“They only have that right because we (mistakenly) gave it to them, and we can take it away.”
Which “right” would that be? If you are thinking Citizens United, it does not apply to what these companies are doing in choosing the business lines they wish to serve. You want government forcing businesses to enter a business line they find unprofitable, too costly, a burden on their bottom line?
For anyone who would like to keep Quickbooks and also have a merchant account that integrates with it since Intuit has dropped them, I do merchant services for firearms related business, whether face to face, or e-commerce. And I have options that will integrate with Quickbooks as long as it is the desktop version (online integration coming soon). Feel free to contact me at [email protected] or 801-951-8191.
“For anyone who would like to keep Quickbooks and also have a merchant account that integrates with it since Intuit has dropped them, I do merchant services for firearms related business,…”
Idiots like Intuit who believe there are no consequences for being dismissive of their customers. Presents a golden opportunity for companies eager to take advantage or corporate arrogance.
Not trying to take advantage, I am just a 2nd amendment supporter and I happen to be able to help those affected by this issue.
Filling a gap in supply, to meet demand, is both smart business, and taking advantage of an opportunity. Nothing to be criticized. Your effort is to be applauded.
All success is the taking advantage of an opening, opportunity, failure, idea, inspiration.
I don’t see how they can legally refuse to pay them the money for purchases already made. I hope they are studying if this is even legal. It’s time for all legal gun owners to pool funds for a massive lawsuit against these companies trying to force the industry and gun owners out of exestince
This is the best blog I have seen so far keep up
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