Choosing the right caliber for self-defense can be daunting, especially with so many options available. One round that consistently stands out is the .45 ACP. Trusted for over a century by military personnel, law enforcement and civilians, the .45 ACP has earned its reputation for delivering powerful stopping power in critical moments. But is it the best option for protecting yourself and your loved ones?
Let’s break down the key advantages of the .45 ACP for self-defense, addressing common concerns like capacity and recoil, while highlighting why it remains a go-to choice for many experts. Whether new to firearms or a seasoned shooter, you’ll learn how this trusted round can enhance your personal protection.
The History of the .45 ACP
The .45 ACP has a rich and compelling history that adds to its appeal as a self-defense round. Developed in 1905 by the legendary firearms designer John Moses Browning, the .45 ACP was created to meet the U.S. military’s need for a more powerful sidearm. The result was a round providing significantly more stopping power than its predecessors. This led to adopting the M1911, a .45 ACP handgun, which became a staple for the U.S. military from World War I through Vietnam and beyond.
The .45 ACP’s battlefield performance solidified its reputation as a hard-hitting, reliable round that could neutralize threats with minimal shots. Its larger, slower-moving bullet made it particularly effective at close range, where self-defense situations often occur. Despite the rise of smaller, higher-velocity rounds like the 9mm, the .45 ACP has maintained popularity due to its historical success in real-world combat scenarios.
Stopping Power: The Main Advantage of the 45 ACP
When discussing self-defense calibers, the term “stopping power” is often a key consideration, and the .45 ACP is renowned for its ability to stop threats quickly. The cartridge typically fires a larger and heavier bullet weighing 185 to 230 grains, which transfers significant energy upon impact. This energy transfer can incapacitate an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds. This stopping power can be critical in life-threatening situations where the goal is to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible.
The .45 ACP’s larger diameter also creates a wider wound channel, causing more tissue damage. This often leads to faster incapacitation, even if only one or two rounds are fired. Many proponents of the .45 ACP argue that it requires fewer shots to stop a threat than smaller calibers like the 9mm, making it a strong candidate for personal defense.
Moreover, modern ammunition advancements, such as jacketed hollow points (JHP), have further enhanced the stopping power of the .45 ACP. These rounds are designed to expand upon impact, reducing the risk of over-penetration and increasing the likelihood of the round staying within the target—an important factor in self-defense to avoid unintended harm.
Accuracy and Controllability
While the .45 ACP is known for its stopping power, it also offers a surprising level of accuracy and controllability, making it a solid choice for self-defense. One might assume that a larger, heavier round would produce excessive recoil, but this isn’t always true. The .45 ACP operates at a relatively low muzzle velocity (typically around 830 feet per second for a 230-grain bullet), which helps manage recoil and makes it easier for the shooter to stay on target.
For many shooters, especially those with experience, the .45 ACP can feel more controllable compared to smaller, faster rounds like the 9mm. The slower recoil impulse allows for better follow-up shots, a critical factor in self-defense scenarios where accuracy and quick reaction times are essential.
Additionally, many .45 ACP pistols are built with ergonomics and weight distribution in mind, further aiding in recoil control. Guns like the 1911, a popular platform for the .45 ACP, are often praised for their balance, which can help shooters maintain precision even under stressful situations.
While novice shooters may initially find the .45 ACP’s recoil more challenging, proper training can mitigate this concern. Once a shooter is accustomed to the feel of the .45 ACP, they often appreciate its manageable recoil and accuracy at close to medium distances, the most common ranges for self-defense encounters.
Reliability: Trusted for Self-Defense
Reliability is one of the most critical factors when choosing a self-defense caliber, and the .45 ACP shines. Whether used in military, law enforcement, or civilian applications, the .45 ACP has a proven track record of dependable performance. In high-stress, life-or-death situations, the last thing you want is a firearm malfunction, and the .45 ACP’s reputation for reliability makes it a trustworthy choice.
One reason for this reliability is the round’s low-pressure design, which helps reduce wear and tear on firearms. Many pistols chambered in .45 ACP, such as the iconic 1911, or modern polymer-frame handguns like the Glock 21, are designed to be durable. These handguns are tested rigorously to ensure they function consistently, even in harsh conditions. This is why many law enforcement officers and military personnel have relied on .45 ACP pistols for decades.
Additionally, the wide variety of ammunition types available for the .45 ACP adds to its reliability. Whether using full metal jacket (FMJ) rounds for practice or jacketed hollow points (JHP) for personal defense, you can find a reliable load that functions well in your firearm. Modern ammunition manufacturers have optimized .45 ACP rounds to ensure smooth feeding, reduced misfires, and enhanced performance, making them a round you can count on when it matters most.
Addressing Common Criticisms: Capacity and Recoil
While the .45 ACP offers many benefits, a few common criticisms are often raised when discussing its suitability for self-defense—primarily its lower capacity and higher recoil compared to smaller calibers like the 9mm.
Magazine Capacity
One of the main trade-offs of carrying a .45 ACP handgun is its reduced magazine capacity. Due to the larger size of the .45 ACP round, most handguns chambered for it hold fewer rounds per magazine. For example, a standard 9mm pistol might hold 15 to 17 rounds, while a .45 ACP pistol typically holds between 7 and 10 rounds.
However, it’s important to note that the need for high capacity can be mitigated with proper training and practice. In many self-defense situations, accuracy and shot placement are far more important than the number of rounds. With the stopping power of the .45 ACP, fewer rounds may be needed to neutralize a threat. Many modern pistols, like the Glock 21, offer extended magazines, bridging the capacity gap between .45 ACP and 9mm handguns.
Recoil
Recoil is another factor that often deters some shooters from using the .45 ACP. The larger round produces more felt recoil than a 9mm, which can be intimidating for novice shooters. However, this disadvantage can be overcome with training. Many experienced shooters find the recoil of the .45 ACP to be manageable, especially when using pistols designed with recoil mitigation features.
The relatively slow velocity of the .45 ACP, combined with modern advancements in handgun design, has made it easier for shooters to maintain control and fire accurate follow-up shots. Guns with recoil springs, weight distribution and ergonomic grips help manage the recoil and keep the firearm on target.
Shooters Weigh in on using .45 ACP for Self Defense
The .45 ACP has been a popular self-defense round for decades, but opinions on its effectiveness and practicality vary widely. Here’s a look at what experienced shooters and firearms enthusiasts think about using the .45 ACP for self-defense, based on real-world feedback.
Training and Familiarity Matter More Than Caliber
One consistent theme among users is that your proficiency with a firearm is more important than the caliber. As one person put it, “If you can shoot it often enough to get good with it, then caliber becomes less important as training and skill increase.” This sentiment underscores that practice and familiarity with your chosen firearm will have a greater impact on self-defense outcomes than whether you’re using a .45 ACP or a 9mm.
Capacity and Ammunition Availability
While .45 ACP is seen as effective, many users highlight its limitations in capacity compared to 9mm. A .45 ACP handgun typically holds fewer rounds, which can be a concern in high-stress self-defense scenarios. As one user noted, “You’ll have less ammo in the mag than a similarly sized 9mm, and ammo to train with will be more expensive”
Ballistics and “Bigger Holes”
One of the selling points of the .45 ACP is its ability to create larger wounds due to its larger diameter bullet. However, modern advancements in ballistics have narrowed the gap between the effectiveness of different calibers. One experienced user explained, “I used to be way into .45 ACP because, as people like to say, ‘it makes bigger holes.’ But most modern handgun cartridges have very similar ballistics“
The Role of Overpenetration
Concerns about overpenetration are common in home defense. One shooter remarked that the .45 ACP’s slower velocity could make it less likely to penetrate walls or other barriers, making it a safer choice in some situations
Suppression and Recoil Considerations
The naturally subsonic nature of .45 ACP rounds makes them a popular choice for suppressed firearms, with some users specifically mentioning their preference for .45 ACP in home defense setups that include a suppressor
Overall, the .45 ACP is still considered a viable self-defense option, especially for those familiar with and confident in using the caliber. However, for many, the higher capacity, lower recoil, and cheaper training costs of 9mm handguns make them the preferred choice for everyday carry and home defense. As one user put it, “Regardless of which is actually better, how well it’s used is going to be vastly more important“
It remains a solid self-defense option for those comfortable with the .45 ACP and willing to practice regularly. However, modern 9mm offerings provide capacity, recoil management, and affordability advantages, making them a more well-rounded choice for most situations.
Why the 45 ACP Is a Strong Choice for Self-Defense
When it comes to self-defense, choosing the right caliber is essential, and the .45 ACP makes a strong case for itself. Its combination of historical reliability, stopping power and accuracy makes it one of the most trusted rounds for personal protection. While the criticisms regarding magazine capacity and recoil are valid, they are manageable with the right training and firearm selection. For those prioritizing a proven round that can quickly stop a threat, the .45 ACP remains a top contender.
Ultimately, the best self-defense round is the one you feel most comfortable and confident with, but the .45 ACP offers a balance of power and performance that few other calibers can match. With modern advancements in ammunition and firearm design, the .45 ACP continues to evolve, making it an even more formidable option for those looking to protect themselves and their loved ones.
.45 ACP from the 1911 platform can be quirky depending on mags. I definitely think that’s a ding in the reliability column you dont usually hear about when talking about 9mm.
I will admit I like .45 auto as a caliber but the only way you really get into conversations about “stopping power” with a 1911 is going into over pressure variants. If you do that game than 9mm isn’t a competition at all, even with its own over powered variants. Man I’d like a 460 Rowland.
I made a discovery a few weekends back while at the range – the fellow at the lane next to me had a 460 Rowland, I had a 45Super. He borrowed a couple of rounds, loaded into his rowland, and shot without a hitch. He said it’s way oversprung to do the same with even 45+p though, and they don’t eject. I’ve gotta believe that running the 40,000 psi rowland loads through a 1911 is hard on it though – 30,000 is spicy enough out of a comped Witness.
Plenty of 1911 10mm pistols out there and there’s no problem with them handling 38,000 psi without any comps on them.
A man’s got to know his limitations.
I have a 5″ XD. I’d love a 1911 just haven’t gotten there yet. I think that it’d be a serious enough gun I’d want the 13 rounds not the 7 or 8. Otherwise I’m just gonna get a .44 mag revolver.
combat tested…combat proven…’nuff said?
lol x 1000
Combat proof does in no way equate to suitability for civilian carry.
Better. Less Chat GPT this time; more actual content.
It’s a chubby round that’s been around awhile, so much when you hear 1911 you see .45. Only the other hand relating to an earlier topic…animal cruelty can be rather costly…
h ttps://youtube.com/watch?v=o9Fq5_bixnw&feature=shared
11mm
10mm
9mm
The old saw: When asked why he carried a 45, Gunny said, “Because I can’t get a 46 or 47…”
Yes. Was this a trick question?
Hollow points are still velocity dependent. The .45 acp has .38 special velocities. The .38 is still valid because it will work in pocket sized snubbie revolvers.
9mm is an efficient cartridge. .45 acp is not.
The best choices for self defense bullets, IMO, are generally the HST, Gold Dot, and Barnes TAC-XP. All of them reliably expand from a 3.3-inch XD-S in .45. They most definitely will reliably expand from any larger gun.
One can debate efficiency, I agree, but when it all comes down to which puts bigger holes in the bad guy, .45 wins.
IME, 185gr XTP downright explosive on small game out of a 5″ barrel. But you have to push them some. Still, less than +p.
The part about capacity is very misleading. It says: ” a standard 9mm pistol might hold 15 to 17 rounds, while a .45 ACP pistol typically holds between 7 and 10 rounds.” That only applies if you’re comparing a double-stack 9mm against a single-stack .45, which seems hardly fair.
Let’s tell the truth about capacity: in the same size gun, with the same size magazine, a Glock 17 holds 17 rounds of 9mm, and a Glock 21 holds 13 rounds of .45 Auto. A difference, yes, but not nearly so stark.
Or another comparison, The Springfield XD-S single-stack magazine holds 5 rounds of .45 Auto, or 7 rounds of 9mm.
Yes the 9mm holds more capacity than a .45, and yes the 9mm ammo costs about 1/3 less than .45 ammo, and the 9mm exhibits less recoil. Those reasons are all why 9mm has become ubiquitous in recent years.
Still, the fact remains that any hit from a .45 will do more damage than any comparable hit from a 9mm. Hits are the only thing that count. A .45 is a huge bullet (typically 230 grains), literally twice as much mass as a common 115-grain 9mm bullet. A .45 starts out a whole lot bigger than a 9mm, and can expand to be a whole lot bigger than an expanded 9mm. Bigger holes do more damage, and (depending on where they hit) can bring a fight to a quicker resolution, than smaller holes do.
Where the .45 shines is in larger guns. The 9mm shines in smaller guns. Because of the comparatively tiny size of the 9mm cartridge, manufacturers can stack them 10 or 12 deep in little guns like the Hellcat. You can’t really do that with a .45; the 5+1 XD-S .45 is about the smallest practical .45 on the market, and it’s generally about the same size as the 10-round Hellcat.
But when you go with larger gun sizes, the 9mm’s advantage quickly dissipates. As said before, a full-size duty handgun like the G21 vs the G17, you’re talking about 17 rounds vs 13. To me that’s an easy choice; I have a G21, not a G17.
For a home defense carbine, I’m pretty much decided on the Ruger LC Carbine in .45, using Glock-compatible 26-round or Kriss Vector 30-round magazines. To me, 9mm doesn’t make any sense in a full-size gun like that. The big gun’s got the room for the big cartridge, and a suppressed .45-caliber 230-grain HST +P at 1080 fps seems like the most practical, biggest, most damaging bullet that you can send at a bad guy, while being practically hollywood quiet. I’ll take that over any 9mm any day.
For a daily carry gun in compact or subcompact, it’s harder to justify a .45 because of the ammo difference. My 9mm XD Subcompact holds 13+1. That’s a healthy amount of ammo, well over twice as much as my .45 XD-s at 6+1, and making it the obvious choice. That was, until they came out with an XDM-Elite 10mm subcompact, which is the same size as the 9mm but holds 11+1 rounds. I’ll take 12 rounds of 10mm over 14 rounds of 9mm any day.
So is .45 good for self defense? Absolutely. Is it the best choice? That depends on so many factors, including whether you can handle the recoil, and whether you can afford the higher cost, and what size gun you’re talking about getting. In a subcompact, no, it’s not really practical when compared to the alternatives (I do LOVE my G30, but it’s a lot bigger than today’s wonder nines and holds less ammo so it’s not a direct comparison). But in a big gun, I’d dare say .45 may be the best choice. Unless you don’t care about subsonic; in that case, always get a 10mm!
Sounds like a plan! I’ll likely never get a 45. 10mm IS the plan🙄Oh my son carried a GLOCK© 21 in the Green Zone,Baghdad,Iraq working for DoD. Said he liked it. So there’s that.
9mm handguns only legally carry more than 10rds in those states that allow it. Several don’t. So the entire ‘capacity’ argument is pointless. I have a Ruger LC carbine in .45 acp. Which I can and do load 26rnd mags in, and with the longer barrel it spits out 220grn Hornady Critical Duty +P at around 1200fps.
Ooooh. Now there is a compelling argument for the ideal application of .45 ACP–in a carbine where it is very practical to accommodate magazines which can hold 15 cartridges. If the carbine is basically the same size and weight (and allows similar ammunition capacities) regardless of caliber, why not get your carbine chambered in the largest practical caliber available?
And if you are able to add a suppressor to your carbine, you want subsonic ammunition and .45 ACP is exactly what the subsonic doctor ordered.
Now that I have a .45 caliber suppressor rated for handgun calibers, I have to start looking for a carbine chambered in .45 ACP. That would support the largest and heaviest bullets in common use and sill be subsonic. In other words, it would maximize the probability of incapacitating one or more attackers as quickly as possible with the fewest number of hits possible while remaining “hearing safe”.
.45 acp in a long barrel gun became quite popular among the families and the military back around 1917 and subsequent. Thompson, and then the M3 in 1942. Both were used in Vietnam. Not everyone liked that pissy little M-16. 🙂
The LC from Ruger has standard muzzle thread for .45 cal. If you have a can for your 1911 it will screw right on the LC, no problem.
Can’t argue with the logic for that setup…… can’t own it either but that is a NY issue. I would like to see the option for 45 super to be usable in the same carbine but that would absolutely add to cost and complexity of the engineering.
gunnygene,
My .45 caliber can has standard threads for .45 ACP so it should work with a Ruger LC carbine.
One more thing: If you reload and want to really impress your buddies, take a look at this – 1700+fps from the .45acp Ruger LC. 🙂
https://realguns.com/articles/2202.htm
While the 45 super results were about what I would have guessed to a bit faster (xtp indeed for 1700ish) the 45+p with the acme hard cast semi wad cutters way over performed compared to what I tend to see from pistol length and for about the cheapest bullet one can buy and still expect a great product. Thank you that was a great data point and hopefully something similar is done with the 10mm version.
RealGuns is a good no-nonsense site for stuff like this, so I have no doubt the author of this article will have a similar one for the 10mm LC in a month or so.
Oooh, I like the idea of .45 Super/.450 SMC from the LC Carbine. If it can handle it repeatedly, then you pretty much have a similar situation as .300 BLK: ultimate subsonic performance, and nice powerful supersonic performance, with a simple magazine change.
If I recall correctly he mentioned in the article that for the really hot loads it would be a good idea to put a heavier recoil spring in it, and/or add some weight to the bolt. He didn’t seem concerned about the barrel with the increased pressures tho.
So there is a Sig 365 sized 45 that carries 10? Capacity is never really pointless it just isn’t always applicable to the degree people will sell it. But for subcompact I will take 10 of 9 before 6 of 45 that is thicker in frame especially when 10mm has better options in that space.
This post was better than the TTAG article.
Nothing like flinging oil cans, HST opens to one inch. The slower round with a large concave metplat usually does not over-penetrate through as many walls (for the non-existent flyers of course).
The article is rather redundant. I got tired of reading the same thing twice. Anyway….
I have been a fan of the .45 ACP since the first time I shot a full size 1911. A push instead of a shove, easy to control. It is true however that the shorter the barrel, the less manageable the 1911 becomes. And of course, there is the weight if you want to carry one, most weighing in at 38 oz or more unloaded. The capacity deficit is not that much of an issue for those of us living in jurisdictions with a ten round mag limit, especially with 8 rounds mags generally available.
My friend, Barley, purchased a set of swimming trunks with a pocket for a concealed weapon. He carries his Glock 21 in it. He says everyone is impressed.
I can shoot a .45 ACP as well as I can a 9mm. No matter which, every single time, the bullet goes out the front and noise comes out the back…and the sides…and the front.
I’ve got this.
Yeah, I know I am not advancing the sum total of human knowledge and may even be wearing away at it.
Yes the 45acp is good for self defense. And yes it comes in other delivery platforms other than the 1911. What else do you want to know?
What time is the eclipse?
Yes the 45acp is good for self defense and yes it comes in other delivery platforms other than the 1911. What else do you want to know?
I saw this post already. That means they changesd something in the Matrix.
Nothing wrong with the .45 ACP, that said, my latest 1911 purchase was a 1911 in 9mm. Shoots flawlessly and very accurate with minimal recoil. I do also like .45 Long colt. Very good accurate round out of a Ruger single action.
There are a few considerations at play here:
First, the old pearl of wisdom shines brightly, “There is no replacement for displacement.” In that regard .45 ACP is the largest readily available caliber and thus the “best” choice in terms of large size.
As another commenter noted, if you live in a state which unconstitutionally prohibits magazine capacities above 10 rounds, then you want your 10 rounds as large as possible to maximize your probability of incapacitating your attacker as quickly as possible. That demands .45 ACP of course.
Yet another factor which no one stated: penetrating vehicle glass at oblique angles. The heavier the bullet, the less a windshield will alter the bullet’s path. Of course .45 ACP offers the heaviest bullets and thus the highest probability of sending bullets straight(er) through vehicle glass.
All three previous factoids make a strong case for .45 ACP for self-defense. Do your own additional research and choose wisely.
P.S. There is one definite down side to .45 ACP versus smaller and faster calibers: less ability to penetrate thick sheet metal such as common military helmets. The venerable .45 ACP round will not penetrate the thick sheet metal of most military helmets whereas 9mm Luger will. Take that for what it’s worth.
Circles gonna jerk
“The heavier the bullet, the less a windshield will alter the bullet’s path.”
I’m skeptical of this claim without experimental data. I would think total energy would be the factor, not just weight. I’m not a physicist, however, and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
i wanna see someone test this on video with various bullet weights, shapes, and velocities. No, I’m not volunteering my truck for testing.
I enjoy my Hi Point JHP 45acp very much. A 9 shot gun.
.44 magnum 180 gr XTP moving at 1500 fps out of a 4 inch Model 629 equals 899 foot pounds.
Eight Hundred and Ninety Nine foot pounds.
Two to three times the energy of a .45 ACP.
This will go through sheet metal, windshields, wood, and fiberglass. At self defense distances you’re looking at one, maybe two shots.
I’ll take that over a $2000 1911 with malfunctioning magazines any day of the week. The two firearms even weigh almost the same, but the 629 is half the cost.
Too much recoil?? F*ing wimp.
Stoped reading when I saw the words “stopping power”…the ultimate sign that the writer has not one clue wtf he is talking about.
Factually incorrect.
for humans it does just fine…
A ‘bit’ of personal history re the .45ACP. I was mandated to carry one for much of my military career, sometimes with a whopping 5 rounds in the mag, empty chamber, safety off and hammer back. Other times full 7 round mags again safety off, hammer back and empty chamber. After transitioning to the M9, full mags, round chambered and hammer down. Lots of differences in methodology over ‘several’ decades 😉
On the civilian LE side, I carried a Combat Commander off duty in Condition One and even had an opportunity to carry it as my duty choice on occasion when most coppers were still ‘stuck’ with wheel guns. Bottom line, the cartridge does what it is designed to do.
Let’s be honest: you don’t want to get shot with anything.
The best gun is the one that you can regularly carry and shoot well. I shoot my Sigs better than my Glocks, and my 1911 in 10mm pulls my pants down far enough I look like a rapper. So, Sig 365 in 9mm it is!
“Let’s be honest: you don’t want to get shot with anything.”
the criminals do.
Disarmament of England INCREASES Violent Crime – Chatting with Dr. Joyce Malcolm.
h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNZWItw9LaA
This Video Is Why I (e.g. Colion) Don’t Open Carry In The City.
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNrltSLpe0E
ANTI-GUNNERS SUBMIT THOUSANDS OF PAGES TO TRY TO JUSTIFY GUN BANS.
Governor Pritzker and IL filed a massive set of papers to defend their “assault weapons” ban in federal court today.
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqcj9AGcTyI
This State Produced The Most Guns | How Many US Senate & House Seats Are Up For Grabs Next Week?!
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOKc9sA-5u8
Elon Musk to upgrade security after left-wing magazine labels him ‘Public Enemy No. 2’.
h ttps://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/entertainment-celebrity/elon-musk-to-upgrade-security-after-left-wing-magazine-labels-him-public-enemy-no-2/ar-AA1sChcF
“When discussing self-defense calibers, the term “stopping power” is often a key consideration, and the .45 ACP is renowned for its ability to stop threats quickly. The cartridge typically fires a larger and heavier bullet weighing 185 to 230 grains, which transfers significant energy upon impact. This energy transfer can incapacitate an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds.”
This is journalistic-pseudo-science-gobbledygook
1. “The cartridge typically fires a larger and heavier bullet weighing 185 to 230 grains, which transfers significant energy upon impact. This energy transfer can incapacitate an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds.” > this is the old ‘.45 shock wave’ myth dressed up in pseudo-science-gobbledygook.
4. This part > “This energy transfer can incapacitate an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds.” is ‘egregiously’ false in terms of reality physics. There is no such thing in energy transfer physics in relation to the size of the handgun round in context with the ability to “incapacitate an assailant more effectively”. There is a point where enough energy is not transferred but there is no such thing as a .45 round (no matter its weight) that will “incapacitate” by energy transfer “an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds”. This “energy transfer” claim is the underlying fallacy weakness in the myth and conjecture that energy transfer somehow makes for more efficiency or effectiveness in this context of ‘incapacitation’ of “an assailant”.
3. ‘stopping power’ for a handgun round is a myth. In context with the rest, there have been numerous people that have tried to explain ‘stopping power’ using energy transfer, bullet size, etc…, literally years of it and there have been hundreds of scientific-environment tests (both genuine and pseudo) … Yet still today, and being in the physics field myself and specializing in energy physics and having examined in projects projectile impact energy physics, I can tell you for a fact there is no such ‘formula’ like this that explains how energy transfer and bullet size relate to a handgun’s ability to stop a threat by the posited energy transfer as claimed in this article.
Whether a bullet ‘stops’ an aggressor or not is largely up to the aggressor and bullet placement, regardless of caliber or whether it’s a pistol, rifle, or shotgun.
correct gunnygene.
The same holds true for explosives as well. Which is why you have far more wounded than killed in combat.
So, to add, and to put actual physics in play in terms of handgun rounds…
If it were true, in context with the .45 round as posited in the article, that “This energy transfer can incapacitate an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds.” – basically, when your fired you would not be able to remain standing. Or in other words and in simple terms, in context of handguns and physics (Newton), the energy transferred to the target on impact (as claimed in the article for its “incapacitating” efficacy), if this were true, would also be the amount of energy which would incapacitate you when you fired the .45 handgun and before the bullet hit the “assailant”.
The .45 handgun bullet simply does not work this way, they do not “incapacitate an assailant” by “energy transfer” to create this mythical ‘stopping power’. As with all handgun bullets, basically, the .45 round creates a degree of injury due to the body absorbing the bullet’s energy and dispersing it in front of and around the path of the bullet (in terms of incapacitating the “assailant”, by injury to something vital) – they do not “incapacitate an assailant” by “energy transfer” and they do not have this mythical ‘stopping power’ by “energy transfer” like the article posits.
basically, when your fired you would not be able to remain standing. ”
Factually incorrect. The gun and your arm, weigh much more the. the bullet.
F = MV^2
It is factually and actually correct.
Great, more google ‘physicists’. I wish it was so simple, I had to go to college to get my education and physics degree and spend years actually doing energy physics.
Force equals mass times acceleration. Full stop.
The force of the propellant is applied equally to the bullet and the gun.The gun weighs much more than the bullet hence travels much slower.
If your “theory”? was correct, elephants would be really happy about it, and caliber restrictions on big game hunting would not apply.
There’s nothing mysterious or unknown or new here amongst physicists. It is simple kinetics.
Ditto forensic pathologists. Sharp force is penetration, blunt force is STOPPING POWER. A needle is sharp force, a club is blunt force. A small solid bullet moving fast is sharp force, a big bullet moving more slowly applies BLUNT force, the foot lbs being equal, assuming muzzle energies are the same.
Consider a refund on that college thing.
“Force equals mass times acceleration.”
that would be true if thats what’s being talked about. you are in the wrong area.
this is about energy transfer at impact, not the force of the propellant for acceleration as applied equally to the bullet and the gun.
you are 100% incorrect. you are in the wrong area. take some more classes at Google U.
here’s a clue: a .45 round at its size, no matter what weight, transferring energy enough to incapacitate a person at moment of impact, that force would need to be ~= to you standing in the middle of the road and being hit by an average empty school bus going ~80 MPH. in other words, that round you fired would have such a large amount of kinetic energy that you would not be able to remain standing and that act of firing would incapacitate you.
but you feel free to keep arguing if you wish. but you are arguing in the wrong area.
the very first place the Google ‘physicists’ go is F = MV^2 thinking ‘Ha ha, got it’ when it comes to impact energy, without realizing they ignored half the variables involved. F = MV^2 is 100% incorrect for this application. but you feel free to keep arguing that of you wish.
Bullshit. Will a beanbag round knock you down? How about a shot put? Blunt force. What happens to the shooter/shotputter? Nothing.
Can a high vel solid go thru you and you not even realize you’ve been shot?
Sharp force.
Can you get shot with a flatnose Brinnel 12 .45 slug that wastes no energy in over-pentration, and not realize it? Maybe, if it hits your head, or you have good armor.
I knew this shit before the Google Boys were born…
80 mph? School bus? Holy crap. How about a 250lb linebacker going 15 mph… It will be a couple of minutes before you even wiggle, if you don’t see it coming…
I have no idea where the pseudoscience gobbledygook about ‘no such thing as stopping power’ is coming from, but it is embarrassing – speaking as an educated American.
You are still missing it. Read carefully, this is what the article said …
“This energy transfer can incapacitate an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds.”
Yet you still keep arguing F = MV^2. Thats the wrong area. What being dealt with is “ENERGY TRANSFER” of solid objects upon initiation of movement AND upon impact.
Once again, you are arguing in the wrong area.
And, there is no such thing as ‘stopping power’, as I stated before in context with handgun rounds and the article “energy transfer can incapacitate” for the .45 round.
Here again you are arguing in the wrong area and out of context of what I wrote which is a big clue you really have no idea because you argue out of context with a formula that doesn’t even apply here.
You assume mass and velocity make stopping power for the .45 handgun round, that’s not true and can’t be for a variety of reasons but the main one is there is simply not enough kinetic energy in the handgun .45 round (nor any handgun round) to transfer at impact that would ‘incapacitate’ by the impact energy transfer the article plainly states. Its possible with some rifle rounds but not handgun fired .45 round.
If it were true that there was such an energy transfer at impact as to incapacitate it would mean that kinetic energy would have had to exist at the initiation of the handgun .45 round ‘movement’ (e.g. you firing) – would mean the kinetic energy unleashed when you fired would be tremendous ~= to you standing in the middle of the road and being hit by an average empty school bus going ~80 MPH. in other words, that round you fired would have such a large amount of kinetic energy that you would not be able to remain standing when you fired and that act of firing would incapacitate you.
There are variables at play here to determine “ENERGY TRANSFER” of solid objects upon initiation of movement AND upon impact. They are not addressed with your google-physics F = MV^2. Among these variables are time, energy loss, immediate energy at firing (newtons – not muzzle velocity), impact force (newtons), ‘object’ (.45 round) surface area, initial velocity energy and ending velocity energy (at impact, and no, ending velocity energy is not zero and can’t be, if it were zero the bullet would have never impacted but that’s another discussion), and there are some more but these are key, and of course the law of conservation of energy figures into it as well because the energy is always there and can neither be created or destroyed but rather only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.
There is simply not enough energy to transfer from a handgun fired .45 round to have this mythical ‘stopping power ‘ the article states happens when “This energy transfer can incapacitate an assailant more effectively than smaller, faster rounds.” – its simply not true. The amount of energy simply does not exist, if it did exist when you fired the energy amount would be so great you would not remain standing and would be incapacitated yourself.
“A small solid bullet moving fast is sharp force, a big bullet moving more slowly applies BLUNT force.”
That is laughably wrong. According to your pseudo-science, at what caliber does a bullet wound become a blunt vs a sharp force?
Let me give you a mini-primer on trauma. I’m a board-certified general surgeon x 28 years with fairly extensive trauma experience.
Two of the major categories of trauma are penetrating and blunt force. Penetrating trauma includes (among other things) gunshot wounds, shotgun wounds, rifle wounds, stabbings, and impailments. These objects *penetrate*. There’s no distinction about how sharp or blunt the tips of the penetrators are, or how fast they’re moving. A .45 ACP wound is considered penetrating trauma in all the trauma literature.
Blunt force trauma includes (among other things) beatings, motor vehicle crashes, motor-pedestrian collisions, and falls. They injure the body largely through blunt force, although some penetrating forces might be included in the mechanisms of injury. A .45 ACP GSW is not considered blunt force trauma by anybody except you.
remember an old “Route 66” episode that revolved around this debate…the .45 won….
If you try to prove or disprove “stopping power” with physics alone and omit physiology, it’s pure folly.
Why can two punches with the same energy either have little incapacitating effect or knock you the F-k out based on where and how they land on your body? It’s not just about physics.
Some things are known long based on observed results long before science catches up to be able to explain it.
“Some things are known long based on observed results long before science catches up to be able to explain it.”
True! Like big bullets hit harder than little ones. Lethality and stopping power are separate issues. Stoppers can be nonlethal, whereas lethals can take years to take effect.
Real world observations…
Set up a 4 foot log on end. Aim 2/3 of the way up. Shoot it with buckshot. It will hardly budge. Shoot it with a rifled slug. It will knock it down. Many little punches do not equal one big one.
Buckshot lethal yes, but stopper not.
Observations.
On “stopping power. ”
The 22LR has stopped many good and bad people DRT.
And any criminal that was not shot DRT, they did in fact stop their criminal actions, and then ran away very fast.
Simply displaying a gun of any caliber will stop criminal activity. That happens about 2 million times every year.
“The 22LR has stopped many good and bad people DRT.”
So has strychnine. So have bee stings, for those who are anaphylactic. So has a well-placed pillow. So have hands. So have hammers. There’s lots and lots of ways to kill someone. What’s your point?
What I’m getting at is, yes, people have been killed by .22LR. But WHEN? How long after they were shot did they expire? And did it STOP them immediately, from continuing their attack? The whole point of self defense is to STOP someone. If your whole point is to KILL someone, then that’s not self defense, that’s murder.
Fact is, there is no .22LR bullet that has stopped someone, who wouldn’t have been equally stopped by a .380, a 9mm, a .40, a .38 Special, a .357, a 10mm, a .45, or any other gunshot. Yet there are probably many many many cases where a shot from a larger more powerful gun has stopped someone (through physical incapacitation) where a .22LR would have failed to do so. .22LR is literally the weakest firearm there is in common use, firing the smallest bullet there is, doing the least amount of damage to the body of any firearm out there.
If a bullet physically incapacitates someone, the .22LR will take longer to do so than pretty much any other caliber. And that time difference is vitally important. Just because someone eventually dies from having been shot in the heart, doesn’t mean they don’t still have time to kick your ass and ring your neck before they finally bleed out.
I love the .22LR, and shoot more of it than any other caliber, but it is far and away the least likely firearm to successfully defend oneself with and should only be employed for that purpose when there is no other (superior) alternative.
“Simply displaying a gun of any caliber will stop criminal activity. ”
Very true, and in that case caliber doesn’t matter at all. But if you’re in the unlucky case where simply displaying the gun DOESN’T stop them, well, you’d better hope your bullet has some ass behind it, and ideally that you have a lot of them.
“doesn’t mean they don’t still have time to kick your ass and ring your neck before they finally bleed out.”
True and amen. Or unload a mag in controlled fashion.
I have no idea what the purpose (if any) behind promoting this ‘no such thing as stopping power’ thesis is, but it is the equivalent of Flat Earth “Theory”.
The ludicrous claim that ‘any load/caliber that would knock a man down, would also knock the shooter down’ almost has to be a troll. It so scientifically incorrect it is embarrassing to read it.
Prople have been shot 4, 5, 6, times by 9mm and 45acp. And lived. Police officers have been shot 4, 5, 6 times and not only lived, but they arrested the criminals who shot at them.
President Trump is an outstanding example. Yes he was lucky. And so are many police officers who stay in the fight. After being shot.
You could have a 2011. A double stack 45acp. And pay $2000 for it as well. Or perhaps its only $1,500??
A determined attacker will keep coming for you . So your 9mm or larger, had better hit the upper spine or brain area. In order to stop them completely.
Unless you are the target of the Mob. Which they keep coming until you are DRT. Nearly all other attackers will run away, at the first time they see you have a gun too.
If they don’t discriminate. They will run away from a 22LR gun as well as anything larger.
re:
Everything Chris T in KY said in this post is 100% accurate, even a little understated. First case I can think of is Officer Timothy Gramins, he shot a Gangster Disciple 14 times with a .45, including six shots that would be considered fatal, but the guy just kept coming and would not die. Quoted from the article on police1.com:
“In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds – in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney – could have produced fatal consequences, “in time,” Gramins emphasizes.”
That’s the crux of the argument right there. IN TIME. My whole point is immediacy of incapacity. A .22lr can kill someone, yes, IN TIME. But a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole, and that bigger hole is more likely to hit something vital than a smaller bullet is. The more vital the hit, the more likely it is to bring a fight to an end sooner rather than later.
The eagle-eyed will note that Gramins was using a .45 and the fight still didn’t stop. No surprise to anyone who studies this; ALL handguns SUCK when it comes to “stopping power”. Even my beloved 10mm SUCKS when it comes to “stopping power”. It just sucks less.
Gramins switched to 9mm after this fight. Why? Capacity. He survived a deadly shootout. Gramins had fired 33 rounds at the guy, and 14 hit, and he was down to his last 4 rounds in his mag. He nearly ran out. So now he carries 9mm, and he carries 145 rounds on him. Hits count, and running out sucks. He’s ensuring he will probably never run out, and will have opportunities to hit the bad guy, and he’s chosen a powerful enough caliber that it’ll be able to deliver an incapacitating hit if he places the shot correctly. 9mm’s capacity, and smaller size and weight, made the choice for him.
Same reason I say why, in a tiny pocket gun, 10+1 rounds of 9mm beats 5+1 rounds of .45.
So the question is: why didn’t he switch to .22LR instead? If he changed his duty gun to a Kel-Tec CP33 and used the extended magazines, he could carry 50 rounds in each mag, he currently carries six magazines, so he could have 300 rounds! So why not? Obviously – because .22LR is the weakest, least destructive bullet available. It has the least ability to cause an incapacitating wound.
I agree with his decision. If I was a police officer getting in extended multigun battles with determined gang members, I’d take a high capacity 9mm too. But I’m not. And the odds of me getting in an extended battle like that are practically zero. So for a practical gun, I want the bullet that’s going to do the most damage so it has the best chance of bringing the fight to and end the soonest. For me, that means 12 rounds of 10mm beats 14 rounds of 9mm. And even though I do have a CP33 with 50 round magazines, it is not my carry gun because the .22LR bullets are not something a reasonable person would choose to enter a gunfight with, when other choices are available.
A Kel-Tec P50, however, might change my mind. 50 rounds of 5.7×28 is very hard to argue against. I’m not a fan of 5.7×28 out of a short barrel, I think it’s an inadequate replacement for 9mm, but out of a 10″ barrel, it’s really quite something. 2,800 feet per second is enough velocity to rip the stretch cavity. If the Kel-Tec was provable 100% reliable, and someone valued capacity over all, I’d absolutely use one of those over any .22LR offering.
That’s a really, really big gun though. Not all that concealable.
I think the ‘any gun displayed’ argument is conflating stopping power with stopping persuasion. The latter depends on a choice by the offender.
When I was young, my dad had certain verbal turns of phrase that were guaranteed to stop you from doing whatever you were doing 100% of the time.
I agree with this. In discussing why a fight stops, we usually use two categories, physiological and psychological. Another way to say it would be a voluntary vs involuntary stop.
A “psychological” stop occurs when an individual chooses to disengage his attack. This can be because he saw a gun and ran away, or he heard a gunshot and ran away, or you fired a bullet at him and missed and he ran away, or you fired a bullet at him and hit him and he felt the pain or saw the blood and decided “screw this, I’m out of here.”
All very good reasons for having a gun to defend yourself, and may be responsible for many gunfights ending, but none of these reasons are reasons you can COUNT ON. They may or may not happen. The attacker may or may not choose to stop. You have no control over that.
The “physiological” stop occurs when the attacker’s body has been damaged so severely that it no longer functions properly. Examples would be if he bled so much that his blood pressure dropped below the level necessary to stay conscious, so he passed out. Or, if the bullet damaged his spine, so he’s actually paralyzed and cannot continue. Or death.
The bigger the bullet and the more energy it has, the more destructive power it has, which makes it more likely to be able to cause such a physiological stop. But no handgun round is capable of causing a physiological stop just from its flesh damage alone (meaning, if you shot someone with the butt with a 10mm, or a .22LR, neither is going to cause so much damage that the attacker’s body shuts down.) You still have to hit something vital, and for reliable quick fight cessation that usually means a major blood vessel or the central nervous system.
Yes it’s true that a tiny .22LR to the brain stem will cause the biggest, baddest, most determined villain to drop on the spot. It can happen. It’d be a miracle to make that shot, but it could happen.
An expanded .45 HST to the heart would bring about as near an instantaneous stop as it’s reasonably possible to expect, and that’s a much more likely shot than a .22LR to the brain. The more damage a bullet can do to vital tissue, the more likely that bullet hit will bring about an involuntary, physiological stop.
It would be interesting to know what load Gramins was using…
Sounds like GI hardball or even target ammo to me.
I used to shoot armadillos with a 45 – the hardball would blow right through them at close range, and they would run off like you missed. At 25 yards, it would roll them, and they would be out for a minute – then they would start cutting up. The slower bullet actually gave better results in re stopping with the hardball.
185 xtp effectively frangible and explosive at short range…
At 98% of never exceed, powder wise.
I carry both…a .22 and a .45…one for show and one for go
“Stopping Power”. Such a braindead phrase that needs to die.
If you kill a threat, you stop it. The power to kill is the power to stop. When faced with any lethal threat, shoot to kill the threat, as this is the fastest and surest way to stop the threat.
The fastest way to kill a threat is a CNS shot (brain stem, cerebellum, etc.). The second fastest way is to destroy the heart (cardiogenic shock). Third is to cause multiple rapid organ shock and shutdown (distributive shock; multiple organs hit, ideally liver, lungs, spleen and central abdominal aorta as those all bleed like a sieve). Beyond that, you’re shooting to wound (debilitate) with shots to the arms and legs, which is not advisable.
A 9mm and .45 ACP can both effectively do all of this. Ideally, any well-designed self defense load with at least 250ft/lbs of energy (300+ ideal) and enough penetration will do the trick. Energy deposition into the target is a nice bonus, especially for immediate effect if we’re talking pleural and thoracic shots. But if I had to pick one over the other, I’d take adequate penetration over energy deposition and rely on well-placed shots (and multiple of them).
Just my $0.02.
Shotgun to upper chest tends to stop most not wearing armor drugs or not. But that is pretty much exactly what you are saying re placement penetration and lots of it. I love the arguments on caliber and effectiveness as there is always more to learn and how things may work better for some people than others. And what can be effectively hidden and put to use quickly and effectively. The tricky part is not getting too hung up on absolutes or this is the best for whatever type thinking as it rarely survives contact with outliers while also not ignoring more common observations and what they mean in most cases.
@brock
Pretty good analysis, if you are a wannabe assassin planning an ambush. Those on defense are in a huge hurry, and need blunt force, AKA stopping power, for the times when shot placement isn’t absolutely perfect.
Just the other day wasnt this guy complaining about recoil?
.45 might steal the soul but it cant blow the lungs out of a body like 9mm.
So the choice is yours, soul stealing or lung blower outer.
I carry both the 9mm and .45acp.
Well I would but all I’ve really got is a black powder flintlock.
” The result was a round providing significantly more stopping power than its predecessors. ”
Only if we ignore the .45Colt. The 45ACP was created to match the ballistics of .45C.
True. The 45 LC was too powerful for the.constraints of the semiauto platform. Hence the ‘watered-down’ 45 ACP. The best they could do at the time, and still good.
it all started in the Philippines…
Um…No.
Energy=1/2*m*V^2
Momentum=m*V
The puny 115 grain 9mm round buzzing along at 1135 feet per second has almost exactly the kinetic energy as the 230 grain chugging along at 830 feet per second. The +p+ 9mm rounds have even more kinetic energy than the .45 rounds.
The true measure of a round is wound channel volume. That .45 round has 61% more cross sectional area as a 9mm round. Of course bullet expansion becomes an extremely relevant factor.
Please don’t get me started on the “hydrodynamic shock” bovine scatology. The speed of sound in all human tissues excepting the lungs greatly exceeds the muzzle velocity of almost any firearms. This includes the 7mm Winchester Magnum. Only the exotic sabot rounds have a velocity in excess of the approximately 1,500 meters per second for soft tissues.
I think you mean hydrostatic shock.
He likely does. Got any clue why he thinks the speed of sound is relevant?
Nope.
“Hydrostatic shock” is at best a controversial theory within the gun community but not relevant within the physics or engineering communities. Any gelatin junkie can show you slow motion videos of gelatin blocks jiggling like Ushi Digard on a trampoline when impacted by a bullet. However; once the jello stops jiggling, one will find that there is no actual damage to the gelatin outside of the wound channel.
The only plausible effect that might be relevant would be a spike in static pressure that effects the brain or the heart. Once again, there is a paucity of actual forensic evidence to support the theory. However; I would not discount the possibility that a pressure spike might temporarily disrupt heart rhythm or brain function.
Sorry Charlie, I don’t want bullets that generate mysterious, unproven physiological effects. I want bullets that generate a large wound channel that is deep enough to reach vital organs and wide enough to maximize the probability of injuring a major organ or cause blood loss. Impacts to bones, particularly major load bearing bones, with sufficient kinetic energy to break and fracture bone wins bonus brownie points.
Blunt force vs sharp force…
Neutrinos and needles zip right through, baseballs break bone.
BTW, just to be clear – the energy to applied to bullet is 1/2 mv^2. The other half goes to the gun, perceived as recoil. I don’t know where you stand on this nonsense about a ‘gun that would knock a man down would also knock the shooter down’, but nonsense is what it is.
the very first place the Google ‘physicists’ go is F = MV^2 thinking ‘Ha ha, got it’ when it comes to impact energy, without realizing they ignored half the variables involved. F = MV^2 is 100% incorrect for this application. but you feel free to keep arguing that of you wish.
what i wrote is 100% correct. its got nothing to do with the acceleration energy type scenario you keep arguing with F = MV^2. you are not in the right area with that. energy TRANSFER (in manner like article states) is a completely different thing from kinetic energy for acceleration velocity like you keep bringing up with F = MV^2.
I am familiar with the formula KE=F*distance. I am also gay with the equation for rocketry where:
Thrust = mass flow rate x exhaust velocity.
I have no idea where you got the F=MV^2 formula.
See below,. Yall be posting bullshit. How come?
Simple really. Hang a piece of firewood from a limb. Use fishing line. Set up a cam at right angle to bullet travel – shoot the firewood , then measure the displacement. That is energy transfer. Big slow moving bullet will displace the firewood more than an equivalent fast-moving small bullet, because the big bullet does not use energy to penetrate the wood, instead being decelerated rapidly. Creating energy transfer.
The same thing will happen with a bag of ballistic gel, but the numbers will be different. This is due to the plasticity of the gel as opposed to wood, but transfer is still occurring.
Sorry about that.
That is energy transfer.
That is momentum transfer.
Lol, momentum is a form of energy. I got shot with a bb gun when I was a kid. I know stuff.
Now what’s this about gay rockets? And what heck is “hydrodynamic shock”?
Ahh, hell. Y’all got me all confused now. I’ll just toss my guns I reckon, and carry my WWII Katana. I know it works ’cause it still has blood stains on it. And it never runs out of ammo. 🙂
You will glad to know (per booger) that it will take an “empty school bus going 80 mph” to incapacitate you.
Are there other interests where they spend literally 100 years analyzing and reanalyzing the same thing? .45 is good. Works fine. Use it if you like it. The end.
As for the .45acp being an effective round, there are a bunch deceased enemy soldiers to attest to it’s effectiveness.
And there many soldiers or others just as dead from other calibersComes down to what an individual is comfortable with and has available when needed.
Personally, I prefer the. 45. But,I have been known to carry other calibers at times. Depending on what’s needed and appropriate at the time.
older buddy of mine dispatched a Chinaman with one shot before he could swing his burp gun around…on the other hand a law officer friend of mine shot a bad guy with a .45 and was shot in return…both of them survived but the bad guy got the worst of it…in the end a pistol is just a pistol…kind of funny to watch that cavalry charge in “They Came to Cordura” where that was all they used
Amazing how the calibre wars never seem to tire.
About “energy transfer”, thought that idea had been discounted a few years ago. But as a .22LR user, maybe I just confused myself.
Say whatever you want I love the 45 acp for short range handgun use. I have no need for high velocity at handgun ranges and a .45 cal. bullet even a FMJ makes a good sizes hole.
I think the trend to the 9mm, which is also a great cartridge, is for cost and recoil because of hiring smaller officers and women. I also think the 40 S&W a great cartridge and no one can tell me the power of a 9mm can match a 40 S&W.
No issues with any of that I just prefer 357 Sig for when I don’t use 9 10 or 357 mag for small cartridges. Can’t argue with 40sw for being efficient for reloading though.
logistics forced the Army’s move to 9 mm…nothing more
Considering the overwhelming importance of logistics in modern warfare and the marginal utility of a pistol that would seem to be a good decision.