“When licensed gun owners in Israel receive their renewal, they are now informed they will have to justify the reason for holding a handgun,” theyeshivaworld.com reports. “Minister of Public Security Yitzchak Aharonovich and others appear determined to reduce the number of handguns held by citizens.” Yes, you heard right. Politicians in the Jewish homeland are implementing a “may issue” policy of civilian disarmament. This is not news to regular readers [e.g., Israeli Gun Rights]. Still, it is shocking, appalling and revealing that Israelis are continuing to de-tool citizens, even if the [former] gun owner is a soldier or officer serving in the IDF reserves. Are they angling for an entry into our This is What Happens to A Disarmed Populace category? Strangely (if stereotypically), theyeshivaworld.com focuses on the financial cost . . .
Unlike in some countries when one is given a license and one can purchase handguns, in Israel, it is a license for a specific handgun and only for that handgun. In addition to losing a licensed weapon, there will be a financial loss as well for a pistol such as a Glock which can cost upwards of 5,000 NIS in Israel will then have to be forfeited or sold. A store buying a second hand weapon realizing the owner must sell is unlikely to pay a fair market value for the weapon. As more and more people are compelled to get rid of their weapons, there will be a surplus of handguns, resulting in the value dropping even more.
As I’ve said to many a newbie looking to purchase a gun for self-defense, why are we talking about money? How much is your life worth? Anyway, funny how the words “never again” have gone out of vogue. Although not in these parts.
As enemies increase in number & Hostility, they see fit to make the citizens unarmed?
Seriously?
My first thought too; enemies all around who want to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth and the government wants to “disarm” its’ population?
I guess idiot politicians area universal fact of life.
Governments preferring disarmed subjects occurring even in Israel. Sad.
kkk this a hole up here what ab the lebanese living in the gaza strip ? do you see fit thst this guys ho unarmed?
So let me get this straight – They live in Israel, are surrounded by people who may be hell bent on the destruction of the state of Israel and some politicians want to disarm the populace (of which many have done compulsory military service). That’s F’ed up! I thought the gun grabbers here were loony.
” are surrounded by people who have ample reason to be hell bent on the destruction of the state of Israel”
There… I fixed that.
“are surrounded by people who feel they have ample reason to be hell-bent on the destruction of the State of Israel”
…and I fixed that for you.
No, please, it was truly my pleasure.
“are surrounded by people who are used by dictators as a ‘wedge issue’ to destroy the tiny little piece of the middle east that has not been ruined by ‘Islamism’.
Look at any map and see how little space Israel takes up of the middle east and sit in anger at the fact that the muslims have forced out most of the Christians and Jews from the crappy lands surrounding this little speck of humanity.
I guess they forgot about that whole “Never Again” thing…
…and the relentless march of tyranny continues.
Trying to put myself in their mindset, I do not believe that the civilian, Jewish, Israeli population is in any way weary or worried that their government could possibly turn on them, since they are by far the majority representation in the government and the government exists fairly specifically to protect the Jewish people of Israel. I believe they feel that the military keeps them as safe as possible from foreign threats, and that they do not have domestic threats in the way that “never again” implies (which is that the body politic [gov’t and its supporters, basically] turns against you… not really anything to do with personal defense [protection from muggers or home invaders]).
SO… yeah, I’m totally freaking against civilian disarmament anywhere, but I don’t think “never again” really applies quite right in this case. In the U.S.? Yes, absolutely. Jews are a small minority and should be armed and weary of the government, which could see a sharp shift against them like what happened in Germany. Although people think it’s crazy, there really isn’t anything specific preventing that sort of thing from happening in the U.S. (we did, after all, put Japanese citizens in internment camps during WWII). I don’t think that’s really the case in Israel and that’s why I don’t think Never Again applies in the same way.
“Internment camps”? Gaza and the West Bank ARE internment camps! What did you think that wall is FOR?
They would be interment camps if they were walled in from all sides. As it is, last I checked, the wall is only on the Israel side, and borders with other countries are not even truly controlled by Israel.
You probably believed the Russians when they said the Berlin Wall was to keep people out or East Berlin too, right (never mind which direction the guns were pointed)? Gaza and West Bank were given up by Israelis in a vain attempt to buy peace. The areas had a fully functioning infrastructure when turned over. These were turned to third world status because the inhabitants decided to focus their efforts on exterminating the state of Israel (and killing gays, and stoning women, and forcing people to submit to Islam, etc.), rather than on making a nice place to live for their people. But, hey, you go ahead and continue to bash the only real democracy in the region and the most tolerant country in the region if it makes you feel better. Just don’t ever, EVER let the facts get in your way.
William, the middle east is a Islamist, crap can nightmare stuck in the 7th century.
Keep your eye on the ball.
Maybe I should have clarified that I didn’t mean the government, but you should have assumed I was referring to the hostile nations that surround them. Not only hostile, but open about their desire to see Israel and Jews wiped out in their entirety. And I’ve never heard “Never Again” specifically defined as anything other than never being subjected to genocide again, feel free to correct me with a source if I am incorrect.
Are they angling for an entry into our This is What Happens to A Disarmed Populace category…AGAIN? Only this time it’ll be self inflicted. Sometimes I wonder if leaders today even know how to read. Hell, even if they don’t a documentary will spell it all out for them.
The gov’ment in Israel is socialist. That’s one reason this Jew has not made ‘aliah’.
The gov does not want civilians taking action, imagine if regular shmoes started taking down terrorists? oh, wait; the bulldozer indecent of a few years ago was stopped by a reservist (close enough to civilian in Israel were just about everyone is in the reserves) after the female officer shot the terrorist in the leg because she did not want to kill him.
Civilians don’t take orders.
You need to remember that more and more Israelis, meaning citizens of the modern state of Israel, are Muslims, meaning they subscribe to a “religion” which implores them to kill Jews. (Again, post in disagreement only if you’ve read the Koran.) They don’t all actually kill Jews, just like not all Catholics honor the Sabbath, but in both cases, that’s clearly what their religion tells them to do.
In this day of unilateral moral disarmament, a modern state like Israel won’t deny citizenship based on religion and Muslims breed faster than Jews (documented fact) so eventually (if current trends continue) Israel will be a Muslim country.
In the mean time, the Jews who currently run the country are stuck with this half measure.
“[M]ore and more Israelis…are Muslims, which means they subscribe to a religion that implores them to kill Jews.” [citation needed]
I’m waiting also. Stop drinking the Kool-ade.
You want cites? Eat my cites. Eat them.
Here’s what those cool aid peddlers at the Pew Research Center are saying:
http://www.pewforum.org/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-israel.aspx
Same the world over, westerners of the Judeo-Christian tradition are having fewer children and others, especially Muslims, are having more. It’s not their genes, it’s just their current cultural habits.
Believe it or not, you don’t have to be Jew to be an Israeli citizen. There are Muslim Israelis. There is a pro-Islam political party in Israel. Here’s a Wikipedia article I didn’t write: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Israel
This is why many Israeli Jews favor a Palestinian state under the “two-state” solution–they fear that eventually there will be one state, dominated by Arab Muslims, which used to be called Israel. (This was actually on that right wing nutbag radio station called NPR last night.) http://www.npr.org/2013/06/27/196133587/israeli-political-leaders-disagree-over-2-state-peace-solution?device=iphone
So, ya know, eat it.
By your scorn of my previous post you reveal some of your own prejudices. Did you think the Jews of Israel wiped out/removed all the Muslims? Did you think that Muslims had no rights in Israel? Who drank what cool-Aid?
Oh, and William Burke, I notice that of your 12 insightful posts today the only one including a citation is the lyrics of a Bob Dylan song.
So, again, eat it.
You assume far too much. You asserted that Islam implores its adherents to kill Jews. None of your citations backed that up.
Israel may indeed be facing extinction as a Jewish state due to demographics. That fact by itself does not support your thesis that Islam implores its adherents to kill Jews.
You also implied some kind of superior knowledge of Islam. So: let’s hear it. Put up or shut up.
I’d also encourage you to read this article, then have another stab at making a coherent argument.
http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/lehre/pmo/eng/Sagan-Baloney.pdf
There is no superior knowledge in Islam, and that’s the problem.
“This is it. We must believe that our fighting with the Jews is eternal, and it will not end until the final battle and this is the fourth point. You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth.
It is not me who says so. The Prophet said: Judgment Day will not come until you fight the Jews and kill them. The Jews will hide behind stones and trees, and the stones and tree will call: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews. I have heard that they are planting many of these trees now.”
Islam doesn’t just demand the killing of Jews; Islam demands the worldwide extermination of Jews.
You make it sound like Muslims lay eggs or something…
Inside their Israeli hosts.
Chant three times “it is a religion of peace” then click your heels together. And then wish really really hard that there is not a “religion” at war with the West (and winning by the way).
Islam is not specifically at war to destroy the Jews. Also after Christians, Buddists, Hindus and silly navel gazing sell loving athiests as well. Not a religion that discriminates against anyone. Hates us all for existing. Convert, pay Jizya (if allowed) or die. Make your choice.
Deliberate ignorance is pathetic.
For a rather “moderate” view of the Mohamadans marching orders.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
Perhaps you don’t know that for the first few hundred years, Muslims treated Jews and Christains far better than Christians treated either; in fact, Jews and Christains were not taxed while living in Muslim countries.
The religion itself does not call for killing Jews and Christians. Some of the practioners do, and some of the leaders make noises for the domestic market implying they do.
And the same thing applies to Christianity and Judaism.
If you can’t tell the difference, you have no business proclaiming lies about it.
I can tell the difference.
When a Christian kills a Muslim because he’s a Muslim, this is directly and verifiably in contradiction to the foundational Christian text–the Gospels.
When a Muslim kills a Christian or Jew because he’s a Christian or Jew, this is in compliance with the foundational Muslim text–the Koran:
[8:12] “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.”
[2.191] “And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.”
There is a meaningful difference between that and “turn the other cheek.”
Felix, that’s some nasty moral equivalency/relativism you have going there. ‘Islamism’ is a 21st century nightmare and only a fool would say otherwise.
Stay on the ball and try to keep up.
“a “religion” which implores them to kill Jews….”
Yeah, can you cite Chapter and Verse here?
Or are you just spouting the same old fantastical, fanatical, bloodthirsty hype?
Skeptical minds want to know.
There are no chapters and verses in the English translations, but they exist in the original text, and have been translated for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY
“This is it. We must believe that our fighting with the Jews is eternal, and it will not end until the final battle and this is the fourth point. You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth.
It is not me who says so. The Prophet said: Judgment Day will not come until you fight the Jews and kill them. The Jews will hide behind stones and trees, and the stones and tree will call: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews. I have heard that they are planting many of these trees now.”
Sounds like the religion of ‘pieces’ to me.
What a dirty filthy religion headed by that child rapist and false prophet, Muhammad (may he rot in Hell).
Rich, who cares. The bottom line is that ‘Islamism’ is a nasty blight on the 21st century and its practiced and supported by a HUGE number of muslims.
That there may be a glut of used handguns on the market, depressing the prices paid to those who lose the right to possess assumes that anyone will be allowed to buy them under a “may issue” system. It would be fairer to assume that the government minions would make it much more difficult to acquire guns without good cause, and therefore there would necessarily be confiscation and destruction of used firearms. In other words, it would be like New Jersey.
This sounds like Hitler disarming the Jews in Germany. Do you remember how that turned out? Really do you need reminders?
Hmm, might be some good used firearms shipped over here soon. Sorry, couldn’t resist 🙂
This is just insane. As others have said, they are surrounded by (thanks to Obama) increasing numbers of militant islamists sworn to wipe Israel off the map. This simply doesn’t make any sense at all. Is there something going on here that isn’t obvious?
Its what happens when a society forgets that violence is a common human trait.During a time of war everyone appreciates a nice gun close by.When peacetime becomes something taken for granted,those same citizenry start to think maybe they don’t need weapons anymore.The Arabs haven’t invaded in the last two election terms,so let’s disarm and sing kumbaya.
I shudder to think that constant warfare is necessary to remind people of the need for armed defense,but human nature seems to reinforce that conclusion.
“Its what happens when a society forgets that violence is a common human trait.”
Post of the week!
“Democracy don’t rule the world
You’d better get that in your head
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that’s better left unsaid” – Bob Dylan, “Union Sundown”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beiteinu
That’s the party the guy belongs to.
Yisrael Beiteinu (Hebrew: ישראל ביתנו, lit. Israel Our Home) is a nationalist political party in Israel. The party’s base has traditionally been secular, Russian-speaking Israelis. The party describes itself as “a national movement with the clear vision to follow in the brave path of Zev Jabotinsky”,[12] the founder of Revisionist Zionism. Although it represents immigrants from the former Soviet Union,[13] it has also expanded its appeal to a more veteran Israeli public.[14] It takes a strong line towards the peace process and the integration of Israeli Arabs, characterized by its 2009 election slogan “No loyalty, no citizenship”.[15] Its main platform includes a recognition of the two-state solution, the creation of a Palestinian state that would include an exchange of some largely Arab-inhabited parts of Israel for largely Jewish-inhabited parts of the West Bank.[16] The party maintains an anti-clerical mantle and encourages socio-economic opportunities for new immigrants, in conjunction with efforts to increase Jewish immigration.
The leader is this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman
A corrupt, Soviet-born thug and Putin lover.
My battle rifle is named Esther, in no small part because of the message of what we are to do to those who conspire in bringing about our our demise in the book of Esther: “…that the king had granted the Jews that were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, and to slay, and to cause to perish, all the forces of the people and province that would assault them, their little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey…” (Esther 8:11)
It blows my mind that the institutional memory of what happens to our people when we don’t own weapons and have the ability to stand up for ourselves has faded. It disgusts me that we’ve let “never again” become more of a tired trope than a way of life. Most of the Jewish people I regularly interact with won’t even let their kids use water guns.
Looks like suicide to me.
A subconscious desire to repeat recent history? Don’t get me wrong, but in the wake of the Holocaust, there resulted in an enormous upsurge of Jewish identity and power.
I’m not fascinated by the theory, but it seems to me worthy of examination.
Brilliant.
Ya know what else experienced an enormous upsurge after WWII? Tokyo. That doesn’t mean its citizens are secretly plotting to get themselves firebombed all over again.
If Jewish identity and power continued to decline after the Holocaust we wouldn’t be talking about Jews in the present tense at all.
This really blows my mind. Why would you make it harder for your already small population to repel invaders? They are literally surrounded with their backs to the sea. There is evil afoot in the Promised Land (as if there wasn’t already).
While Israel has a policy of civilian disarmament, it has a very strong policy of ”everyone else” armament. For the 3 years that soldiers serve in active duty many are required to bring their issue rifle home with them when on leave, which is every week or two. In addition there are a generous helping of security guards, which are all armed. towns in dangerous areas have rapid response teams which are basically small government supplied militias. Heck, I had a friend who’s cousin was patrolling the streets of her community with an M1 Carbine when she was 18 or so as part of the local civil defense.
While the ordinary citizen may not have personal firearm ownership, many ordinary citizens are part of government and private organizations which supply and encourage an armed society. Rest assured that there are many, many guns in Israel and that all able bodied citizens will have a military firearm (Israel doesn’t really have any plinkers or hunting guns) if the need should, god forbid, arise.
Though, yes I think private citizens should be allowed their own private guns. I just want to dispel the myth of an unarmed Israel, it only bespeaks ignorance, and a lack of ever being there.
-SRD
You are on the verge of ignorance with your comment.
Well said…
Lemme see some ID, Lars.
The Israeli government should be destroyed. Then again I could name a few more government’s that could use a good high colonic.
You’d think gun control among the Israeli populous would be the very last thing the Israeli government would be worried about, but maybe their plans also include disarming and controlling their own people as well. What a surprise.
Unfortunately, the mental disease known as liberalism is endemic in Israel.
How else do you explain them trading one stupid soldier for 500 terrorists?
How do you explain left-wing academics who are convinced that if Israel stopped trying to be a Jewish state, everything would be alright, regardless that Arabs keep telling them Jews will be slaughtered?
Because Israeli Muslims/Arabs are first-class citizens, they are legally not allowed to be denied anything, including the guns they would use to harm Jews.
Israel is controlled by a right-wing realm of government, doesn’t take much research to know this fact. Although this fascist right-wing type structure was helped into existence by the established elite left-wing mostly dominated by European Jews. Oh the humanity of politics.
How in the world do so many anti-semite trolls congregate at a site run by a Jew? Very odd.
But to my point, Lars, study your history before you make dumb comments. ALL fascist governments of the 20th century were far-left socialist (Nazi=National Socialist and Mussolini, a dedicated socialist, invented the term “Fascisti” to describe his street thugs.) and NOT right wing or conservative. Anyone who advocates smaller government (conservatives) cannot, by definition, be a fascist.
“Unfortunately, the mental disease known as liberalism is endemic in Israel.”
While this is generally a valid assessment, even most (if not all) of the opposition parties, right or left, have the same general idea about guns.
They don’t like them in the hands of ordinary citizens.
The Holocaust gave Jews worldwide a identity that they had not enjoyed for centuries. I am suggesting there may be a subconscious desire in some Israelis and Jewish Americans to experience the world’s focus of attention once more.
I really, really hope I am wrong.
As an American Jew I can tell you, you are. All we want is the world to leave us alone, seeing as they are incapable we have taken to arming ourselves.
The only reason these people need for a gun permit is that they live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world. They never know who is hiding around the next corner waiting to kill them.
Oh, I think they do know who’s waiting around the corner from them! Anyone who’s not Jewish! It’s a sub-current in Jewish consciousness.
I don’t know who you are William Burke but I think you belong on a different website, here is a list of suggestions.
http://www.americannaziparty.com/about/
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
http://www.kkk.com/
http://pashtoislamway.blogspot.com/p/jihadi-websites-links-updated.html
You’re welcome.
The only reason they _don’t_ need a permit is because they were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among them being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Of course, if you’re not willing to fight for your rights, you lose them.
We’ll see how this law is administered. As Duke of Sharon stated, this might be a method for disarming those Muslims that the G doesn’t trust, or it may be a tool to give the Israeli security and law enforcement personnel a bit more control.
Shall issue doesn’t always mean shall issue. Rhode Island is shall issue in law but FU in fact. One the other hand, Alabama was (still is?) may issue in theory but shall issue in fact. In the hoplophobic Comintern of Massachusetts, the entire state is may issue, but certain towns are effectively shall issue.
Phrases like “shall issue” and “may issue” should not distract us. There are three components to any law. The first is the written legislation. The second component are the court decisions. The third is the way the law is administered by LEOs “on the street.”
We’ll have to see how this works out.
“We’ll see how this law is administered. As Duke of Sharon stated, this might be a method for disarming those Muslims that the G doesn’t trust, or it may be a tool to give the Israeli security and law enforcement personnel a bit more control.”
You’re correct, Ralph, but you’re wrong about who they seek to control. Israel, the way I view it, is eager to become Chicago.
Few here seem to be willing to look into this deeply enough.
@William Burke, IMO you may have put the cart before the horse. The last thing in the world that Israel wants to be is Chicago. Israel already has all the disorder and gangs that it needs, and it’s welfare state policies make Chicago’s system seem almost Darwinian in contrast.
If your position that Chicago wants to be Israel — a welfare state with a violent minority that “needs” to be controlled — I’d buy that.
I though Israel would be the LAST country to try and disarm its civilians, what with the enemy constantly knocking on the door and all.
For what it’s worth, TTAG access is blocked on the public WiFi in Ben Gurion airport due to being a “Gun Sales” site. At least that was the case a couple months back when I was visiting. I was able to stay caught up from my hotel, though. 🙂
Anyway, I figured I’d mention it since it speaks to the current climate / attitude toward guns there.
Hamas. Reason given.
Oh my! Israeli gun control will disarm Hamas.
That’s the single most ignorant comment I’ve ever seen here. Are you suggesting ISRAELIS are arming Hamas? Those weapons do NOT come from within Israel’s borders.
Israel CREATED Hamas. Use a search engine. It’s called controlling your opposition by creating it.
The CIA created al-Queda; that’s so well-known I’m shocked you don’t know it. Or don’t want to know it.
Seriously, you show an incredible lack of historical or factual aptitude. It’s just stunning. I must keep reminding myself that one of the costs of free country is people who distort the truth and stay proudly misinformed. It is your right to be that way, but it still is sad to see.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re on about. But i suppose i will clarify since maybe i was mistaken in thinking that the one liner got my point across. I am suggesting that the existence of Hamas is reason enough for an Israeli to own a gun. (if one insists that anyone needs to justify ownership.)
My money is that it will still be easy to get one. If you live in almost anywhere except Tel Aviv it will be easy to get one. If you frequently travel through Judea/Samaria it’ll be easy to get one (almost impossible not to, its a small country). If you every deal in large amounts of cash (there are a lot more small, family owned businesses that deal mostly in cash than in US) it’ll be easy to get one. I say this law won’t have to much of an effect. I’m still against it though.
Do you have a plate and cutlery big enough to handle a crow, Ben Eli?
As the bible shows the Israeli are stubborn in many ways they keep falling for the same failed polices there ancestors fell for and suffer from the same consequences.
Again, the modern state of Israel and the contemporary forms of Judaism have as much in common with Israel in the Bible as my Western Roman Catholic community does with Christiandom of the Charlemagne era. Too many Americans have been brainwashed by Evangelical propaganda into thinking this mid 20th Century construct is somehow a copy of the old. Israel is a corporatist police state, with more in common with Singapore than the U.S. , only less ethno-religiously pluralistic than the former. The state and ethno-religious majority keep strict control of the country, and there is no tradition of opposing state tyranny. While Israel is, in the strict sense of the term, a democracy, it is NOT a ‘free’ society as we would consider the term.
Close. It’s a European PROGRESSIVE state.
Adam, you seem to me to come closest to the problem. Israel was born in an atmosphere of terror, justified paranoia, and ambition. No one has noted the intended (I’m sure) irony of the photo at the top of the post: “The Destruction of Hungarian Jewry.” Certainly the owner of this site is keenly aware of the engineered and aspiring nature of the Israeli state from its founding, and the elitist mindset of the prime leaders and foreign financial supporters, the people who were unwilling to save hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews for dollars per head because they thought the very expensive ransoming of a much smaller number of non-Hungarian Jews thought to be more valuable the founding of the state was a better use of their money. So, too, today, high privilege and status is bestowed on key scientists, spies, academics, and generals, but the ordinary rabble, even native-born and Jewish, receives no special trust and no inalienable rights except the right to appear in court to ultimately have his rights denied for security purposes. I’m not faulting the model. I’m pointing out that it’s tendency at the top toward suspicion and elite privilege is surely recognized by this site’s owner.
And yes, this was meant to reply to Adam’s post below.
Israel’s political system actually resembles its on-again/off-again sort-of friend, Turkey. Both are actually pretty good places, compared to their neighbors: universal sufferage, clean elections, minimal corruption and not bad religious freedom. For example, Israel is one safe haven for the Baha’i and Druze, But full citizenship really requires membership in the majority ethno-linguistic and religious group (speaking Hebrew in whatever accent and being a Jew, speaking Turkish and being Muslim). This is very different from, say, Canada and the U.S. (or even, in the Ba’athist era, Egypt and Iraq) where ANYONE can be a full citizen. Could you imagine a Christian elected official in either Israel, or Turkey? But here, I’m a Roman Catholic, and have a Muslim Mayor, Protestant Premier and Prime Minister, etc.
The State of Israel was founded as a safe haven after one of the largest sectarian mass murders in recorded history, and the country’s collective paranoia and fear reflects this. This is why Israel does not treat its ‘friends’ well, such as the USS Liberty incident and the fact that, according to the CIA, Israel spies on the U.S. more than any other country. And the corporatist political system, like Kemalism, was meant to develop the country quickly and defend it, not provide liberty to its citizens.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Israel was never a free society, in the pluralistic, Anglo-American sense. This is a country where full citizenship is contingent on religious affiliation: a foreign-born Jewish convert will be granted full Israeli citizenship; a Muslim or Christian who was born in the country to a family that has lived there since Christ can lose his residency if he is out of the country for a certain period. Non-Jews, including the Arab Christian minority, are treated as second-class citizens. Most of the country’s legal code comes from a prewar European corporatist model, rather than an American, or British one–what we here expect as legal rights don’t necessarily exist, and things like arbitrary arrest, detention and torture are widely practiced by the police and extensive state security apparatus. And, in addition to friction with Arab Christians and Muslims, there are issues between the secular Jewish majority and the large Haredi population that occasionally boil over into violence. Israel always was a corporatist police state, only too many Americans, blinded by both conservative and liberal propaganda, never wanted to see this.
Sephardic and Ethiopian Jews, both of which are original Jews (descended from Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and Solomon) are treated as second-class citizens by the Ashkenazis who control government and society in Israel. And not one of them can be considered tradition, or original, Jews. They are descended from western Asians who CONVERTED to Judaism nearly a millennium ago.
Many of them, particularly the Ethiopians, live in sub-basements of apartment blocks, and do not enjoy full citizenship rights.
While the immigrant communities, regardless of where they came from, are not as well established in the higher echelons of Israeli society, it is good to remember that converts to Judaism are just as Jewish as Moses was.
Yes, this is one of the things so many people can’t wrap their heads around: Judaism is a RELIGION, and not a ‘race.’ Take Yaphet Koto (the curmudgeonly engineer from Alien), who looks like a good ol’ Southern Baptist boy–he’s from a family that has been Jewish for generations, since they came from Africa. And Bar Rafaeli looks like a White Power boy’s wet dream. Prior to the Christian era, Judaism was the fastest growing religion, by conversion, in the Roman Empire. But the Orthodox conversions seem to be the ones that enjoy the most broad recognition, though Israel recognizes all self-described Jews.
Israel is not a Constitutional Republic as the US is (or supposed to be). Gov’t is model on Great Britain and, typically of the model, is a largely and frequently a disfunction coalition of minority groups lumped together in order to get SOMETHING done. You don’t like the US two party Rep/Dem system. This is the alternative. No thank you.
Stereotype or observation. Take your choice.
– In order to survive millenia the Jewish people in Europe perfected “get along and go along”. * Western “leaders” want civilian disarmament – UN, UK/Eurp/Obuma. Without the US Israel would have not survived this long and they need us as much now as ever in their history. That the survival of this nation at the “mercy” of the whims of Obuma is sad.
– 19th Century Jewish “Intellgentsia” is substantially responsible for the creation and “success” of the various -isms. The nirvana Jewish statists created lead directly to National Socialism and Communism. Weird how wacko utopian “Progressive” ideas work out. * Civilian ownership of firearms is not compatible with statist utopia. The “Intelligentsia” still know more that the masses of unwash rubes and rednecks (gun owners).
“Never again”? Maybe. Or perhaps Israeli Rednecks need to demand a 2nd Amendment.
Israel had to deal with a different set of circumstances than, say, post-independence America, from ethnic war to an utter lack of natural resources. Israel has to import 70% of its food and almost all fuel. A corporatist system, with rights and freedoms making concessions to national interests, is simply functional. However, Israel is less ‘socialist’ than any other country in one respect: there is no civil marriage, with only religious marriages (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc.). And I agree with what’s been said about Israel’s awful PR voting system, which some lunatics want to see transplanted to Canada and the U.S.
Interestingly, as far as Marxism, only Christian countries provided fertile ground for this ideology. Karl Marx was a convert to Christianity, and Iosef Dzugashvili himself was a student of divinity. The Boxer Rebellion in China was lead by a Christian-inspired cult, and laid the tracks for Maoism. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, etc. were all strongly Christian society. Other than Albania, no majority Muslim country ever went Marxist. Someone once described Marxism-Leninism as an athiest Christian Heresy, with all of Christianity’s dialecticism and fatalism. And, far from being either ‘socialist,’ or Christian Naziism wrapped itself in neo-pagan mythology and symbols, though Mussolini’s fascism was more classically corporatist. And, unlike even Canada (really antisemitic, in the MacKenzie King era), both fascist Italy and Kemal Ataturk accepted Jewish refugees, profiting from Germany’s brain drain.
The whole world is RUNNING to get the NEW WORLD ORDER! We need to WATCH here in America as NEVER before!!(one world government) will come as a result of WW3 , the plan is to kill so many people that we will cry for peace and give up all LIBERTY…….this is reported big over sea’s but the American (controlled press) says not a word! WHY? The English Parliament is asking for answers about the 2013 meetings of the BILDERBERT … ( the globalist) and CBS,NBC,ABC,FOX not a word ??? and if no guns .. you know the results!
Bilderberg, TLMO. You’re on the right path; don’t ruin it.
MAC had a pretty thorough rundown of what it’s like to live in Israel and deal with its gun laws. Unfortunately, I think a lot gun owners are under the impression Israel is a gun utopia…
http://www.thebangswitch.com/visiting-an-israeli-gun-shop/
Tourism–that’s the best explanation any Israeli has been able to give me. Tel Aviv has the most beautiful beaches and night life in the Mediterranean. But it has competition…not the least of which from the US. A lot of Europeans are uneasy about the US and Miami Beach in particular, and that sentiment flares up whenever news of a European tourist being robbed and or shot in Florida breaks, which seemed rather frequent in the 1980s and now seems more like every two years or so. They still think America is the wild west. And recently more and more crime at other Mediterranean resorts, not just terror attacks like in Egypt a few years ago, but street crime. So the Israeli government tries to play to the wealthy European’s ideal of a “safe” beach resort, i.e. “gun free” except for the soldiers. Tourists rarely go to the “settlements,” so the rules are more permissive there.
I’m content to remain aligned with the Tribe of Reuben, and can never imagine living in a place where any government refuses me the right of armed self-defense.
Good. Stay away.
How can we make Eurp as welcoming to Mexicans as they have been to the Mohamadans who are taking the place over in the last 40yrs. Actually a few million Mexicans would be a good counterstroke for them to all the Moslems.
Heck resettling 5million Mexicans in Afganistan would be the best develop program we could give both. Sing Karzai the dem party song of Mexican = hard working, god fearing, strong family values yada yada yada. Build bunch of US franchise stores and small towns. And if nothing else many already know the distribution end of the poppy chain.
“Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.”
Need I say more?
Wait. Are they doing this only to Jews? Or are they doing this as a means of weeding out armed Muslims?
There aren’t any armed muslims, actually, outside a few particular government agents.
No goyim, Jews arent behind gun control, people like Feinstein, Bloomberg and Emmanuel truly love guns. Oy vey, this anti-semitic reporting is just like another shoah.
The big gun control money behind groups like IANSA has always been WASPs: the Rockefeller and Ford Foundations, etc. All of the big financial and media empires are run by Christians. WASP and Catholic politicians in the NE of the U.S. and Eastern Canada are the big gun control types. Barack Obama II was born of a lapsed Muslim dad, had a minimally observant Muslim stepdad, and is now a mainstream protestant. The oil barons are Western Christians or Gulf Muslims, and there are now huge numbers of rich Chinese, especially in the real estate and financial sectors (e.g., Li Ka-Shing and sons). People like Mayor Bloomberg are exceptions. Jews never really ran the levers of power in any part of the world.
hmmmm, buy a Fobus holster, get a FREE handgun! I’m in….
Israel just seems like sort of a shyte place to live. What’s the point, really?
Oh yeah, IDF girls – rite?
Correct.
Israel has become a Police State — just like the UK and the good old US-of-A. No further explanation is really needed.
Police State types here fall into a number of different sub-culture categories — on the left you have anti-gun and the NSA is OK if Obama is the White House — on the right you have those who think that the government needs infinite power to protect us from “terrorists” and call Snowden a “traitor”. Both groups ultimately agree on the same policies — the arguments are just presented differently. The debate for less freedom has been re-framed to suit different groups.
Anyone in the US who is Jewish — or have a “Jewish sounding” last name — or might otherwise be identified as being Jewish SHOULD OWN A GUN.
I know I do.
A quick word about Jews and guns — from someone who grew up in at least a nominally Jewish family and in an area with a lot of other Jewish kids.
Jews have little history of being full citizens in whatever land they might be in — from Constantine to the 19th century. There was no culture of land ownership, hunting or weaponry. Skills had to be portable (between your ears).
Emancipated Jews in Europe in the latter 19th and early 20th century probably could have purchased firearms — but had no cultural familiarity and were unlikely to be rurally based. Over time Jews became successful, cosmopolitan and SECURE — the last item being a fatal error.
When my parents (and me) moved to the suburbs of NYC in the 1950s — most “fancy” neighborhoods were “exclusive” and Jews (and many other groups) were openly not allowed. In spite of this — and the fact that we knew specifically of European family members being dragged off (thanks IBM!) barely 20 years earlier — I am astonished — in retrospect, that my father never purchased a gun.
But he felt SECURE.
I don’t — and none of us should.
Good point. Note that Bosnian Muslims were also in this predicament: unarmed, secure in what they thought was a tolerant society, and utterly unprepared for genocide.
One has to remember what a great Hell people who lived through the Holocaust experienced. Things like that harden one’s perspective, and that is why the State of Israel is often so shockingly ruthless and brutally cruel in its national defense (e.g., USS Liberty, bulldozing homes, hoarding nukes, etc.). As for the Israeli Justice system, the state security apparatus is as paranoid of the Haredis as they are of the Arabs, and do not want them armed.
Well, they are a socialist country. This is what happens when bureaucrats control your rights. Socialists, communists, fascists, nazis are all tyrants.
I know being the victim supposedly gives them moral authority, but you can’t have moral authority if you are dead.
I’m an Israeli, Hebrew is my mother tongue, so please excuse my english.
I had to point out some facts, that were overlooked:
1) the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) is the biggest army in numbers in the region.
2) The IDF is the most equipped army in the region, holds the most cutting-edge technology that exists – mojority of it was developed in Israel, within the Israeli Defense industry.
3) Crime ratio is very low. We feel extremely safe. Our children play outside without us worrying for a minute. In most cities, even if you don’t lock your door – nobody will get in. So there is no issue of crime-related self-defense. Murders/rapes etc happen very rarley, relatively.
4) Most of IDF soldiers carry weapons on them every day, all day. When you go to a mall for instance – you will encounter dosens of equipped soldiers on their leave, or just taking a break. So there is no terror-related self-defense, as you feel protected all the time.
5) Lately there were just too many incidents of civilan’s carrying weapons that killed their wifes.
6) I’m sure that if they executed a poll, most Israelis will be for that action, as we feel very safe with our soldiers protecting us and don’t want untrained people carrying weapons.
7) There is no chance in hell that a terrorist sitting at home right now thinking to himslef “Now that Israeli authorities take a few hunderds of pistols away from its citizens (leaving hunders of thousands of equipped soldiers carrying small arms ) I’m sure I can carry out my plans”.
come on…. Israel is not a bad american movie, its not good against evil here. People actually try to live their lives and grow their children in peace.
Israeli citizens don’t need self-defense — they’ve got the American Taxpayers footing the bill for their defense.
Ok. First of all, what’s that got to do with this post subject?
Secondly, just to put things in perspective – Israel’s yearly defense spending stands at about 70 Billion. America aid funds are about 3-4 Billion.
Some of these funds finance R&D of technologies that end up where? Yes, you guessed correctly – the US Army. The US intelligence gets a LOT of information from where? Yes, you guessed correctly again – the Israeli Intelligence Agencies.
I’m not saying we are not grateful. But please don’t confuse that with us not being able to stand up for ourselves. America has a clear interest to keep us as its friend in the Middle East. Also note Israel has one of the most stable economics in the world.
But please don’t let some facts get in the way of your agenda.
My late father enlisted on September 26, 1911 in the United States Navy and served honorably for three years on the illfated USS Cyclops . Quite a remarkable feat for a foreigner who spoke little or no English . Having escaped from the Ottoman Empire , which dominated his country , Greece , for over four centuries , he was rewarded for his service by being given his American citizenship which he cherished throughout his entire life . He loved his adopted country , obeyed its laws to a fault , raised his family , educated his children and cherished the privelege to own a gun . My fondest recollection was traipsing through the fields with Dad and my older brother . Dad had an old 12 gauge Parker shotgun which is now my prized possession . Every mark , every scratch bears a memory of a time of growing up . He taught us to respect the ownership , use and laws of hunting and formost to respect the host whose land we were allowed to hunt . –Dad is now gone , so too is my older brother . I am in my eighth decade . My two sons have hunted with me and now I am priveleged to hunt along with the grandsons . My brother and I heeded the call and served honorably in the Service of our country , two Grandsons now serve in the Merchant Marine as officers . Eternally grateful for my father’s choice to make America his home . A nation governed by the Constitution and its all important Amendments . I will never forget that Dad’s land was occupied and ruled by heathen . There was no Second Amendment . God bless and protect America !
Dennis .
It looks like a huge blood bath is about to happen in Israel, and the people responsible for it will be their own government, I am shocked and sad at the same time.
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