http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsxdk1V8i-M&list=UUJimfyIOFM3Yaot_V8bFLPQ&index=2&feature=plcp
I’m reviewing a Beretta PX4 in .40 caliber. I agree with Mr. Yeager: too much recoil. If you don’t need to deal with it, why bother? Less is more (9mm) and more is more (.45). Someday I’ll tell you about the guy who invented the .40 and show you the very first .40 semi ever invented. Meanwhile, meh.
In my humble opinion shot placement is the most important with a handgun. Caliber is secondary to shot placement. Also reliability, can’t neglect that either.
I shoot the 9 because I can get twice the practice as with a 45.
.45 sends twice the payload.
And if you practice half as much you can miss twice as much with the double payload.
.45 doesn’t cost that much!
the 9 is better than 45 because a box of target loads of 9 can be had for $12 where i live, however the 45 will cost you $16 or $18 depending on the store. therefore i practice twice as much with m 9 as i would with a 45. and i think a 147 gr 9 can get the job done just fine.
I shoot one box of 45 in my 1911 and then shoot 250 rounds from my 1911-22. Cost problem solved.
.45 doesn’t send twice the payload, not really even 1/3 more payload. All mainstream pistol rounds are anemic compared to rifle or shotgun rounds, that’s a fact. .45 isn’t a death ray, it’s only marginally more powerful than a .9mm.
Sure thing chief.
Any chance you’d sell your .9mm? I find myself reading about them in the media from time to time but I can’t manage to find anyone who actually owns or sells them. 😉
I would beg to differ. While a .45 isn’t a death ray, gel studies have shown that while a 9mm will penetrate virtually as far as a .45, the .45 will make a much larger channel. Larger channels equate to more tissue damage. I have a 9mm (small 9mm S&W Shield), but its my BUG. My primary concealed handgun, in fact, all my other semi’s are .45s. I have 2, .45 cal. Glocks and 2, .45 cal 1911’s (a Colt and a Kimber). I also two revolvers (a Ruger SP101, .357 mag. and a Taurus Judge, .45 LC and .410 shells). My point is, I shoot the largest rounds I can control (I’m a woman). Also, everyone knows you use your pistol fight your way to your rifle, so I have two AR-15’s (Daniel Defense 5.56) and a 12 gauge shotgun. Fortunately, I can afford to shoot as much as I want, plus I always buy in bulk, so I’m able to practice as much as I want. BTW, before anyone asks, I make my own money and buy my own ammo! My point is, several people here have talked about price. I wonder…if .45 ammo was no more expensive than 9mm, would ANYONE shoot 9mm? I have a feeling that the sale of .45 cal handguns would go through the roof!!!!!
if you think 100-200 joules of energy .20″ is “twice the payload”, then you are sorely mistaken.
Energy is just fine on the way to the target, but once inside tissue it’s momentum that matters. That’s M*V, rather than 1/2M*V^2. Mass matters a whole lot more there. So 230 grains of bonded lead has a greater tendency to bulldoze through the edge of bones, rather than be deflected to a new path, than 147 grains does. And the cheapest 9mm are 115 grains, which is exactly half of the heavier .45s – which is where I think APBTFan is getting the (valid) “twice the payload” comment.
that is still a “moving the goalpost” argument. When you compare defensive 9mm and defensive 45 APC, as well as target ammunition, they are not measurably better than the eachother.
Not measurably better… See my reply to you below.
I’ll check back in on this post in 100 years when the 9mm vs. .45 argument will still be going just as strong.
Then why is 40s&w so popular with LEO’s? If itdidnt work leo’s wouldnt use it. Its a compromise round like 556 NATO. More capacity than a 45, better ballistic performance than 9mm. You lose a little terminal effect and on average 2-4 rounds of mag capacity. I am no fanboy of 40; I dont like how flippy it is but to say it “sucks” is just dumb.
The predominant .38 S&W worked, and the .357’s worked. But LEO’s thought they were “out gunned” because they were using revolvers rather than spray-n-pray semi-autos.
Law enforcement and government employees like to think that they’re supposed to be better equipped than the riff-raff, and when the riff-raff was packing wonder-9’s, that meant they needed something Bigger and supposedly Better. Well, that would have been the .45 ACP, but none of the wonder-9 plastic gun outfits were making a .45 ACP just yet, so enter the .40 S&W on a scaled-up plastic gun.
DG,
You’ve explained and articulated well something that I was suspecting about the ego need of the American Samurai LE & USG employee class to have superior weapons than the peasant sheeple class.
I’ll stick with my Ruger SP101 and LCR chambered for .357 kept loaded with .38 +P and .38 Special.
You need to listen to the whole video and Yeager lays that out. The three elements in any gun fight to stop the bad guy is placement, penetration, and expansion in that order. Look at all the latest studies and you will find that 9mm will penetrate as much as needed, the difference in expansion is negligible, and with less recoil, most people will be back on target quicker and can put more rounds on target. More holes = more expansion. And 9mm is a LOT cheaper to shoot and practice with.
You forgot the most important one. Repetition. Any given torso strike is a wild card whether or not it incapacitates. Hit em, hit em with something big enough to do the job, and they’re dead. But whether or not they stop fighting right that second is just random chance. Which is why you want to stack the odds in your favor by never relying on one roll of the dice. Cole Younger survived eleven gunshot wounds taken in one gun battle. To be extra sure, I recommend exceeding this number.
I am a much more accurate shooter with my 45 than with my plastic compact 9. I am about the same with my wife’s M-9 except for the first DA round. I am going to miss with that one. The M1911 recoil is overstated. While it is heavy it is more of push than a snap. I can empty a mag inside a half dollar at self defense ranges.
Oddly enough, I find I have a much worse flinch with the slow, heavy “push” calibers. I can shoot 9mm or .40 or .357 or .30-06 very accurately and hardly twitch at all. Give me a .45 or a 12-ga, and I can’t hit a thing (exaggeration, but still. . . ).
LEOs have different applications to use a handgun round in. If you see yourself routinely needing to put a bullet through a wall, car door, or angled windshield and *then* incapacitate someone, the extra energy of a .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, or .40 S&W makes some sense.
Also, LEOs are people too and just as susceptible to trends as anyone else. The .40 S&W is what the FBI use; you want to be like the Navy SEAL-er, I mean FBI, don’t you?
For personal self-defense carry, stick with 9mm and .45 ACP
I like .40 S&W over 9mm because I get almost the same capacity and much heavier bullets (180 grain). As Human Being mentioned above, law enforcement officers are more likely to have to incapacitate a criminal through an angled windshield. Well shooting a 9mm 115 grain bullet into an angled windshield or through a car door isn’t going to be anywhere near as successful as shooting a .40 caliber 180 grain bullet. Of course a .45 caliber 225 grain bullet will do even better but you lose a substantial amount of magazine capacity.
To be sure some people will argue that an armed citizen will almost never need to shoot at a criminal through a barrier such as a windshield. Times are changing and I hope Mr. Farago posts a current situation that illustrates just why I carry 180 grain bullets and lots of them.
The 357/40/hot45 can give you a stretch (temporary) cavity to incapacitate the BG because the nerve plexus is stretched by the pressure wave which creates temporary imcapacitation (like a sharp blow from a baton or a fist to the solar plexus). Ever wonder why the 357 is such a wicked man stopper? Now ya know….tell your friends. 75% of the cops, the FBI, everybody gets it. Fifteen to seventeen rounds of large bullet goodness in a gun the same size as the ‘girly 9’ with the option to go from 9mm power to pushing 357 and 135 grain weight slugs to 200. If the dude is worried about gun wear then why do people use +p+ rounds? ALL HAIL THE 40, the true killer of the 9/45 debate.
its popular because many in law enforcement still delve into the “bigger is better” pistol caliber bull. The truth is that 40 does suck compared to 9mm and 45. Since the difference between pistol calibers are negligible, I have always preferred the reliable and high cap 9mm.
Please read comment above.
I did and all that i see is hubris.
comparing a 357 to a modern combat handgun cartridge is really apples to pears.
using +P and +P+ 9mm is not a issue anyways with a quality handgun. The same cartridges are produced for 357 magnum and 45 ACP for a reason (and people have a propensity to get bent out of shape over them).
“fast” cartridges like the 40 have a compelling case for barrier penetration (as does the 357 SIG), as in they are somewhat better than 9mm and 45. Again, if you find yourself in a gunfight trying to penetrate barriers, it would have been sensible to grab a long gun 5 minutes ago.
Also, 40, just like every other cartridge, is not immune to the laws to the law of advantages vs disadvantages. With developments in 9mm and 45, i cannot justify any reason for owning one.
If you believe that there is no difference in effectiveness between the 9 and the 45 than I can see why you think the same would hold true with the 40 compared to the 9. A bigger cross sectional diametered bullet that can have more mass that is going at a higher velocity (if you so desire) really is much better. Showing the diff between a handgun and a rifle is a rather ragged strawman tactic. The 9 is mainly a range gun while the 40 is mainly a defensive gun that you shoot with adrenaline coursing through your veins. Both calibers work for both defense and range, of course, but they shine in their primary niches. Nines make great micro defense guns, by the way.
Exactly JSIII.
I have fired 9mm, .40, and .45.
When I chose my caliber of choice, it was power AND control. I shoot the .40 and I chose that because I don’t have much issue with the recoil. I am a large man, I have been lifting weights since I was 12. Having said that, I found the .45 was a bit too much recoil for my tastes, control wise.
Maybe there are a few people who weigh 140 lbs, trying to quick fire a .45 and not doing too well at it, but for me, the .40’s recoil is not something I think about too much. I do notice that for me, the 9mm has much less recoil.
It is my opinion that everyone shoot the caliber they can handle. It sounds to me like Mr. Yeager is declaring that a lot of shooters select a larger caliber than they can handle, but to put the blame on the caliber itself is wrong. Personally, if I was even stronger and could quickly bring a .45 caliber back to target fast, then I would carry that. If I could do it with a .50 Magnum, then I would carry that. But for me, the .40 is perfect.
Maybe Mr. Yeager’s assertion that men who carry .40s are compensating for a small penis is true in some cases. But I have found that men who assert such things are more often than not the same guys who declare that ‘size doesn’t matter,’ and of course it is always the guys with a little penis, who make such statements. Mr. Yeager should keep his preference for little guns to himself, rather than openly admitting his jealousy of men who carry a larger ‘pistol.’
“If itdidnt work leo’s wouldnt use it.” now that’s just down right ignorant.
Because .40 was adopted by the FBI, and for ease, a lot of PD’s followed suit. But now, with the developments of 9mm defensive loads and better ballistics, there is really no difference. Look how a lot of departments are now ditching their .40SW for 9mm, because of a higher round count in the mags, and the benefit of new defensive loads.
357sig doesn’t have any more recoil then 9mm P+ or 45 ACP so how can it be harder to control than 9mm or 45 when the recoils the same? And as was stated above shot placement is key and my 357sig guns are very accurate.
I’ll bet you money you don’t shoot your .357 Sig as much as I shoot my 9mm… Unless you’re independently wealthy. The more you shoot, the better you will be. The nine will get the job done but is affordable to shoot. That’s why it’s so popular.
I don’t know how often you shoot but I only spend 32cents a round for 357 sig target ammo (8 cents a round more than 9mm) and I supplement this with my 22 pistol which at 5cents a round gives me a lot of range time on the cheap. Nothing wrong with 9mm, I prefer it in pocket sized pistols, I just prefer 357sig when I can carry a mid sized or larger pistol.
Yeager’s a bit douchey but he’s not wrong here. If I want capacity, I go for 9mm. If I want a heavy round, I go for .45. .40 is weirdly both, or neither.
40 does it all. Most cops and the feds use it. End of story. You get heavy or light round (choice) with power (or reduced to roughly 9mm level if desired) at 40 caliber in a 9mm sized format with 17 instead of 19 rounds in the Glock 22 vs 17. Get yourself a 9mm conversion barrel (I did) to go with your Gen 4 and you covered all worlds. I have 9mm for Keltec pf9 which is around 14oz. The 40 truly is the destroyer of the 9/45 debate (which is the REAL reason some hate it).
pat, the problem is that it didn’t end the debate. Now instead of 9vs. 45 we have 9 vs. 40 vs. 45. It’s a vicious wheel that will keep on turning.
While it is a wheel that seems to keep on turning, I find it more interesting than vicious to debate (though some can and do get vicious regarding the subject). The 40 has indeed entered the fray, so to speak, with both 9 and 45 fans saying its too snappy and 9 fans saying you dont need the extra power or that it is just as effective (they are wrong, of course).
pat, please define the “extra power” that the 40 has.
It doesnt change the fact that 40 does wear out guns faster and typically firearms models are less reliable than 45 or 9mm. Look at the issues with the glock 22. Need I say more?
40 is A alternative, though it is no deus ex machina compared to the others. The same argument you are making in favor of the 40 can be made for 357 SIG as well.
Extra power (effectiveness) in a larger cross sectional diameter bullet of a larger weight (if desired) with a greater selection of self defense ammo and weight profile (135 grain to 200) are some of the advantages. More ‘wave energy incapacitation punch effect’ because of the higher velocity is also noted. The 4Gen addressed the 40 issues in the Glocks (light systems shaking loose) and reduced felt recoil by 12%……Glock durability and reliability really aint an issue but I will grant that a G17 would be longer lasting (I will just swap out the spring when needed…probably never if I use my 9mm conversion barrel at the range). 357Sig is a novelty niche while 40s&w is a “revolution” with massive ammo selection that is without peer in self defense ammo selection (many loads work fantastically while just a few 9mm loads even enter the ballpark. It is a great caliber for those who want characteristics of the 9 and 45 while serving up a few of its own, a compromise….and so much more.
I am a worthy debater for this calibers charms, am I not.
Well, there’s a small problem with the assertion: 9mm MAP’s are right up there with .40 S&W at about 35KPSI (per SAAMI).
.45 ACP’s MAP is down around 20KPSI to 23KPSI (+P loadings).
I specifically avoid cartridges in both rifles and pistols with high MAP’s now due to hearing damage. If I ever have to light off a few rounds without hearing protection, I’d vastly prefer a round with as low a MAP as possible to get the job done. This takes us to cartridges of the “big and slow” variety – .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .44 Special, etc.
Interesting comments about (what I assume are) the pressures of the different cartridges. Does it really make that big a difference in terms of decibels? (Then again, doesn’t a change of 3dB at that range half or double the exposure time for hearing damage to occur?)
My dream would be to get a 9mm with a silencer, but in the meantime, I guess .45 is worth a look.
There are two issues in sound and damage to hearing: There’s a maximum amplitude and then there’s power (which is roughly amplitude times duration). Higher pressures result in higher amplitudes, as you can see from the tests run here:
http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
And 9mm 147gr.?
Up around 35kPSI.
Your expertise and experience are always appreciated, DG.
Finally, someone who hasn’t drank the .40 S&W Kool Aid. I’ll take accuracy over caliber any day of the week.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that every .40 S&W pistol will be less accurate than a 9 mm. I shoot a G23 just about the same as a G19, which is to say that for me it’s very accurate. Just the other day I rented an HK P30 in 9 mm and I could not hit anything with it. It was, I should say, perhaps the most comfortable pistol I’ve ever held, but the trigger was not good at all. After 100 rounds my accuracy did not improve at all.
Then get a Browning Buckmark 22lr. Nice gun and the ammo is cheap. Dont hate on the cops and feds who (almost all) use the round that settled the 9/45 debate (which is why its hated). Just being honest.
+1
The only chamberings I will ever own a semi automatic handgun in are .22lr, 9mm and .45acp. Revolver chamberings would be .22lr, .357 mag and .44 mag. Anything different would be for as a novelty or as a range queen.
Well, it doesn’t suck, but 10+1 compared to 12+1 was enough reason for me to switch to a 9. Now just to shoot better…
Seventeen rounds of ‘real man’ vs nineteen of 9mm (Glock 22 vs 17)? Get real. You give up ‘instant incapacitation’ potential by not using rounds (40) that stretch the nerve plexus when creating a large stretch (temporary) cavity (like getting hit in the gut by a baseball bat when a bullets pressure wave is near a nerve…like solar plexus). There was a reason all the cops used 357 in the past before the high cap semi revolution, and why they use the 40 today. Yup, its worth the loss of two ‘girly’ rounds.
19 rounds of 9mm is superior to 15 rounds of 40. see what I did there? the same thing you did, except the other way around.
If there is negligible differences between 9mm and 45, the difference is even more negligible when you bring 40 to the table.
and cops “in the past” typically used 38 special.
You have completely ignored the revolution that has taken place over the last 20 years or so with the 40s&w. It is the dominant police firearm (no small feat in such a period of time) thats carried by the feds. Aside from its stretch (temporary)cavity incapacitation ability the cartridge enjoyes a large power and mass spectrum advantage (135 grain to 200). You make the mistake of comparing a primary range round (9mm) with a primary defensive round (40) which becomes glaringly odvious when you see the huge selection of extremely effective choices of defensive ammo the 40 offers compared to the few +p offerings for the 9 has. Glock offered the 4th generation duel spring because the flashlights people were mounting would become loose, and yes, it also reduced felt recoil by about 10%. If I were forced at gunpoint (a 40, of course) to choose the most durable platform, I would go with a G17, but they are all Glocks for heavens sake, durability and reliability just aint an issue. The 40 is a fantastic cartrige that gives MOST of what the 9 and 45 bring to the table….a compromise. The G22 has a 2 round extention giving you 17 on tap, the G17 with its 2 round extention gives you 19. 17 vs 19 really aint that big a deal.
PS. I got a 9mm conversion barrel for my G22…..which is the MOST used gun in the good ol’ US of A by law enforcement. God bless America.
I agree with you. I like 9mm because it’s cheap and it’s easy to be accurate, and I like .45ACP because it hits like a brick but is still controllable. .40S&W is just….meh.
Anyone that gets paid to train with firearms is going to eventually make up some stuff. BTW all of these instructores will eventually tell you that the best gun/caliber is the gun that YOU shoot the best. I don’t think this video was helpful. I also think it’s a little creepy that at the beginning he talked about penis and was smiling uncontrollably. What is he doing with his hand at 3:20?
True. We all shoot 22lr better, but would not use it for defense. By the way, there is a huge difference with shooting at a range and defending yourself where you are hopped up and would not even feel the extra ‘kick’ of the gun that destroyed the 9/45 debate (which is the REAL reason they dislike the round that MOST of the cops and feds use). Silly rabbits. HA ha ha ha ha
Have to agree with James and most of the other comments so far… .40 isn’t that great. Other calibers can be shot better. Now I don’t know enough to counter his claims that .40s wear out faster, but I have no doubt he has more experience than I do so I plead the fifth on that particular issue.
I heard a rumor that Gen 3 .40 s&w Glocks were wearing out fast and having a lot of issues with police departments, which was a fairly large consideration in the design of the Gen 4 since most PD’s issue .40 cal Glocks. I also heard that the Gen 4 is designed more around the .40 as opposed to 9mm like previous Gen’s, hence every caliber now having dual recoil springs, which was the main fix to the problems they were seeing with the .40 cal versions apparently. This is just a rumor I heard though, so take it for what it is. Someone hear probably knows more about this.
Lights on police issue G22 and 23’s were shooting loose. Gen4 duel recoil spring addressed that. Wear conserns were also noted and greatly reduced (with 12% reduction in felt recoil).
Not great (compared to rifles), just a little better than 9 and 45.
I have a .45 (Sig P220) and a .22LR conversion kit for it. The best of both worlds.
I carry the gun in the .45 configuration, but I do most of my practice shooting in the .22LR configuration. (low recoil and low ammo costs) I always end my practice sessions with several of the .45 bullets to ensure the practice with low recoil hasn’t screwed up my defensive skills with higher recoil.
All four of my SIGs are chambered in .40 and I like the .40 round, but I’m now in the process of converting my EDC P239 and P229 to 9mm via conversion barrels. I find that 9mm is simply easier to control my follow up shots with vs. .40. Plus, I gain an extra round by going to 9mm.
For now, I’ll keep my full-sized SIGs in .40.
That is a smart move as I have a conversion barrel for my G22. You can shoot ammo all day at the range with 9mm and put the 40 in for defense. You will not shoot noticably worse in real world self defense as you wont even feel the diff in ‘kick’. They make ammo in lower power levels for the 40 to make some of the girls on this forum happy anyway. The 9/45 debate has been destroyed by the 40. The cops and feds know it, now you do. Dont give up the 357 ‘instant incapacitation’ potential that is a hard punch to the solarplexus because the 40 bullet caused a stretch (temporary) cavity and pressure wave nearby.
James, is correct, if you can’t do it with a 9mm or .45ACP use a rifle or go home.
.40 Short & Weak was created for those who couldn’t handle the incredible 10mm cartridge!!!
I used to have a G20 so I know what ya mean. They are big guns and the ammo is a niche market, however. 40 was called short and weak at the beginning before the ammo “matured’. Its pushing 357 levels in many loads so I think that moniker “short and weak” has been sufficiently addressed. G20 is a great woods gun, by the way.
10mm should be pushing 600 fps or more or it’s not worth it.Recently with the gun ferver over the last couple yrs makers are stepping up to provide awsome 10mm ammo and at resonable prices.Of course presently UnderWoodAmmo is the go to for real 10mm.Parabellum Ammo is another.Nothing like a auto loader with that kind of power and it can be regulated on load levels for CCW.I always recommend these ammo suppliers.
The time I had the G20 the Winchester 175 grain was probably the best. Glad to see they are giving it more options to load with. Great outdoor gun, and you can put a conversion barrel in and shoot 40. It could be the most versatile caliber of all if they continue making different rounds for it. I could see it being more logical than a 45 in the doublestack high capacity large handgun realm….if your hands are large enough for the grip, which I think they slimmed a bit.
I find the recoil of the G20 easier to control than a G22 due to the heavier slide.
Go 10MM!
All depends on the load in the chamber. Some 10mm stuff is real hot and some 40 stuff is mild, though ultimately you could shoot mild stuff out of a 10mm or use a conversion barrel and it would be easiest of all to shoot (unless you put a 9mm conversion barrel in a G22).
His argument is that he has a harder time shooting the .40s&w, so therefore they suck. Ok, just because he can’t shoot it well doesn’t mean that it sucks, it just means that its not for him. I have a .40 s&w and I find it easy to shoot with accurate shot placement. Quick and accurate follow up shots are not a problem as well.
As I’ve heard time and time again from numerous people, shoot what works for you and what you’re comfortable with. For me, that just happens to be a .40s&w. For James, that is not the case; doesn’t mean it sucks. It is still a lethal round that is more than capable in a defensive situation.
Yeager brings up a good point but does it in a manner that is designed to stir anger. Drama is how MTV and most news networks attract masses of viewers, if Yeager wants to play the same game I’ll ignore him just as much as I do the other two,
James Yeager is a worthless tool.
Well, pressure times volume = energy. So you can see energy can remain constant if pressure goes up but volume goes down by the same proportion. So, external to the chamber, it doesn’t make a difference if a round is a high pressure round or not. The high pressure doesn’t necessarily imply high energy.
I think the 40s are typically described as harsh is that they are built upon 9mm platforms with 9mm type slide weights. So of course it’s going to feel more harsh simply because 40 is a higher energy round. Many people say the 10mm is pretty soft shooting in a G20 especially in it’s loadings closer to 40. This because the Glock 20 is based on the larger 45 slide/frame.
So I don’t doubt Yeager about 40 guns wearing out faster but it’s not correct to just say any high pressure round would have the same effect. Shoot those 40 out of a glock 20 with a conversion barrel and it would last much longer than your G27.
Ooooh…another caliber argument… YAWN!
Y’all shoot what you like, the manufacturers will keep making more.
I have a Springfield XDM in 40 S&W and love it. I can shoot it more accurately than anything else. I don’t think it sucks. You know what else is great? I can get conversion barrels to shoot 9mm or 357sig so I would say it’s better than any normal 9mm.
Bingo.
LEO’s shoot what they are told to shoot. The 40 was a Laywer, PC, gender neutral, profit driven, boondoggle. LE Depts adopt it because they can claim all that Federal research as legal defense when they are the defendant on a non-rightous shoot.
Yes, because the caliber you used to shoot someone really matters if it’s a non-righteous shoot…lmao
Huh? What does that have to do with you not being man enough to handle a ‘real gun’? See, I can be cute too. Ha ha ha ha Stop being so upset because the 40 ended the 9/45 debate and is KING of all (though a micro 9mm like the Keltec pf9 is pretty cool….. just ask Zimmerman.
ever hear of a 38 Super?
I have never had any use for the .40 and to this day you won’t find one in my gun safe.
Some think the .40 is more lethal than the 9mm or even the .45. I say they’re misinformed.
Some think the .40 is a good “compromise” between the 9mm and .45. I think it brings absolutely nothing positive to the table. It has neither the capacity of the 9mm nor the power of the .45. It does however have more recoil than both.
I wish the 10mm would have remained popular and the watered down .40 would have never happened. The 10mm was unique and purposeful. The .40 was the result of a knee jerk reaction by the FBI.
The 9mm and .45 ACP have served me well and will continue to do so until someone manages to invent a portable death-ray.
I’ll second what Tim said. I’ve always said that people should carry whatever they’re comfortable with, but I’ve always found .40s to be so much snappier than .9s or .45s. With modern ammunition the 9mm is probably all you’d ever need defensively speaking, but some folks like to have a larger caliber (that’s their decision).
I think the best reason to own a .40 caliber gun is because most law enforcement agencies use them, and in a pinch you could potentially use parts (if you’re using the same model), magazines (again if you’re using the same model) and ammo with local LE should the need arise.
If you like .40 then by all means, carry it. I’ll stick with a 9mm though, I feel it works just fine.
You say the best reason to own a 40 is because most law enforcement agencies use them. Hmmm…..hint, hint, hint.
Your concept of scrounging parts does add to the versatility of the round, however. You can choose rounds in guns that have less snap try to overcome snap impulse and let it work for you as it is a shorter impulse and some can get on target quicker.
The great Chuck Yeager can decry the .40 all he wants to. Here’s the problem: LEOs often do not have a choice of caliber or firearm. My caliber choices are .40 S&W or .40 S&W for handguns. That’s it. I therefore have several .40 S&W carry options to avoid training scars to the greatest possible extent.
I actually agree with many of the things he has said regarding wear, recoil, and magazine capacity. However, practice with what you currently own beats .380 / .38 Special / 9mm / .357 Smith / .357 Sig / .40 S&W / .45 GAP / .45 ACP caliber choice. Why? Because you can spend ridiculous amounts of time, money, and frustration chasing caliber choices and firearm platforms. Ammunition choice also mitigates caliber choice to an extent, and the 9mm and .45 ACP both have higher pressure loads which bring their own issues to the table.
That’s great that he has an awesome résumé, but if he doesn’t live my life he does not have a terribly great influence in my caliber choice.
I often wonder what Chuck Yeager thinks of the .40SW but I agree with what James Yeagers states…
Oops. James.
You do realize your talking about locked breech firearms, slide weight is not the contributing factor to recoil as both slides must use a spring to reduce slide movement and return the slide to battery, different weight slides, different capacity springs
Correction.
James Yeager: Everything Sucks
So what your saying is that your 40 has the same base as a 9mm?
“So if I master the “hard to shoot” 40 then any caliber is easy!” <— That's what my wife said! Sorry James!
Why is troll keep getting fed? All he has done worth of note in his life is be a coward.
Don’t forget having cameramen in the line of fire(NEXT TO THE FUCKING CARDBOARD) and rolling it off as some kind of better for training,the SAS do it so why not us awesome operators training awesomely. The ambush fiasco is just the tip of the iceberg( albeit a very stupid one)
I like mine I don’t have any trouble with recoil on my xdsc after some practice, like any other gun. Although I don’t have my own 9mm yet I’m looking at maybe glock 19, caracal c, or xds when they come out with the 9mm version.
I bought 40 because my 36 year cop father in law told me tons of stories about how he saw the 9mm fail to put people down over and over again even some dogs. Plus the one time he needed his sig 229 40 to save his life he put 3 in the guys chest from 20 yards out and he was dead on the spot. He might be biased but it’s a good reason to be biased. It might not be the best but it doesn’t suck.
I personally have no trouble managing recoil or placing follow-up shots with my USP 40. Given the design features of the USP, including the polygonal bore, I’d be shocked if it didn’t make it to 50K rounds or more. Seems to me that Mr. Yeager is basing his opinions on his experience with Glocks.
the USP 40 is the best 40 out there. hands down. the USP series has always been over-engineered, which is perfect for the high pressure characteristic of the 40. If you are that hellbent on buying a 40 (which most sensible people wouldnt be), then I would recommend none other than the USP 40.
+1
Great point. It’s telling that H&K designed & built the USP 40 first, then built the 9mm version on the proven USP 40 chassis.
When you reverse that order and build a 40 pistol on an existing 9mm base design (I’m lookin’ at YOU, Glock) then yeah, you accept some compromises that are likely to affect longevity.
you’re right, but im not saying HK did that because they didn’t. They derived the HK USP from the Mark 23, which automatically guaranteed the USP would be over-engineered 😀
and that is a good thing. youre taking a handgun that is optimized to fire ALL 45 ACP like a fat kid eating jolly ranchers (including 45 Super), then you are downscaling it to 40 and 9mm. You get a beast.
The HK USP 40 is the only 40 that has proven itself to me utterly reliable. The Glock, XD, M&P, and others have performed inferior to their 9mm and 45 variants.
Fair enough, smwlce. I was trying to avoid a recitation of the USP’s full lineage for the sake of brevity, and not looking like a complete H&K fanboy.
Yes, the ridiculously overbuilt Mk23 is the USP’s daddy. No argument there. The first USP released was the 40, hence my assertion that the design foundation of the USP built around the 40 s&w cartridge then later adapted to 9mm. It’s a nuanced bit of H&K history, but one which supports your reasoning that the USP 9/40 chassis is unique in having been designed around the 40.
if you want a 40, get one in a nut shell.
Im with you 100%
Compromise…..as in half the price. With the Gen4 reducing felt recoil by a further 12% and greatly increasing longevity, there is even less reason to buy the admittedly fine HK.
Most law enforcement agencies (including the Feds) nonsensible? Interesting…..I am sorry that you hate the fact that the 40 stole the thunder of the 9 and 45 this last quarter century or so. HK is a fine handgun…..but its the same thing at almost twice as the Glock. Do Gen4’s break down THAT MUCH? REEAALLLY? Answer….No, they really dont.
I disagree.
40s are awesome, because they come in 40 ounce bottles, for between $1.50 and $3.00, depending on where you live. And, also, because they typically contain malted liquor, they get you drunk much faster, for less money.
So, 40s are great.
+1000
+40
For those who want to argue the perennial 9×19 vs. .45 ACP vs. .40 S&W issue for effectiveness:
Go research the work of Dr. Martin L. Fackler, (Col. USA, ret).
The majority of people shot with a handgun in the US survive. Almost all handgun rounds are mere shadows of the wounding effectiveness that a rifle or shotgun brings to the table. That said, the only way that a handgun round kills the victim is to compromise a “critical structure” – most notably, a significant blood vessel.
Most of what gun writers peddle in this debate is worse than useless. Dr. Fackler was dispensing factual data collected from actual gunshots back in the early 90’s.
As a scientist myself, I’ve always enjoyed his detailed empirical-dismemberment of Marshal and Sanow’s “Street Stoppers”.
Lethality is of no concern. The goal is ‘incapacitation’. The highway patrolmen realized the effectiveness of the 357 for many decades as a ‘manstopper’. You see, when a round of sufficient energy hits an area near a nerve center (solar plexus) the pressure wave created by the stretch (temporary) cavity creates a stunning effect like getting hit by a baton which temporarily knocks you out of the game for a period of time. Fackler is correct only in that you really do want adequate penetration and as large a crush (permanent) cavity as possible to reach vital areas because you cannot rely on the ‘punch effect’ because you may not hit near a nerve center or the bad guy could be hopped up on drugs and whatnot. I prefer to have rounds that can potentially create this incapacitating effect on a nerve plexus like the 357 seems to have done time and time again.
You’re an idiot.
This is the first time I have actually agreed with James. The little bastage .40 has nothing that would make it more desireable to me over my .45, and the 1 or 2 rounds at MOST that I would lose doesn’t matter to me enough. If I get down to my knife I’ll count on my adrenaline and true aim with my knife. Then again, if I manage to go through 39 rounds of .45 I am screwed and something is seriously wrong.
your Adrenaline will make the 40 (the gun that ended the 9/45 debate) feel like a 22lr if you use it in a defense situation. Nothing wrong with a 45, of course, but the gun is bigger and the rounds are less for the same level of ummmpff. That G21 with 13rnds is quite a handfull compared to my G22 with 17rnds. Both are more effective than the ‘chick nines’, even with +p+.
Shot placement is the only factor that matters.No handgun has stopping power-LAPD Officer Stacy Lim took a .357 Magnum round to the heart at contact distance and still killed her assailant with the duty 9mm on her hip.She went back on duty after a stay at the hospital, and the bad guy’s pushing up dasies where he belongs.
.40, .45 ACP, .357 magnum, .50 AE, 10mm, 9mm, 9mm +p, hell .41 AE, it doesn’t matter. The user must shoot enough to be proficient with any of them. As far as LE and military goes, not to slander our brave boys and girls in blue but they are NOT the example we need to be following. 100 rounds a year to qualify might be acceptable for the bean counters and liability lawyers, but in my estimation that’s a punchline to a bad joke. With that low of a bar, you’d be a bad shot with .22LR !
http://www.policemag.com/videos/channel/women-in-law-enforcement/2010/09/lapd-officer-stacey-lim-s-lethal-force-encounter.aspx
Just watched that video of her recounting the encounter. She managed quite a bit before passing out from her wound. The kid she shot also fired five more times after Lim hit him 4 times. And while she is LAPD, this happened to her off-duty in an attempted car-jacking on her way home from dinner. Crazy.
If placement (odviously important) is the ONLY factor that matters to you, you should use a BB gun. Dont be silly. There are many factors that matter. Energy is what makes a bullet perform (otherwise it would just sit on a countertop at 0 kinetic energy).
I like 500 to 700 foot pounds energy penetrating around a foot or so with a big starting diameter that expands nicely while not breaking up with a huge stretch (temporary) cavity that creates a pressure wave near a nerve center that hits like a baseball bat and knocks the dude senseless for a period of time. Rifles make stretch cavities permanent ones, which is why they are so nasty. People taking 357 are like man bites dog stories, you go with the averages, silly rabbit.
I shoot a .40 and enjoy it. I find it’s accurate, easy to control and very powerful. Even with a compact .40, I have no problems keeping every shot in the A zone at 25 yards. If you can’t handle a .40, that’s okay. That’s the reason why gun manufacturers offer us so many options. Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot, but please — please — don’t be a caliber nazi. It makes you look like a bald-headed a$$hole.
What he said.
“X sucks” is not an argument, it’s grade-A douchery and mental masturbation. Every option has its own unique set of benefits and challenges. If Mr. Yeager can’t acknowledge that, he’s wasting his time and ours. Ditto for Mr. Farago.
How is yeager wrong??? please point this out. Saying “X sucks” is grade A douchery without weighing the different points is also mental masturbation in its cruelest form.
the caliber debate is mental masturbation too. why would you select a caliber where you get a smaller magazine? especially if there is negligible differences between that and smaller calibers that have larger capacities?
The .40 has heavier bullet weight potential, more kinetic energy potentail, and tends to deflect less than the 9 mm against intermediate barriers, perhaps.
The FBI and Olin and Smith and Wesson developed the .40 Smith. They also developed the FBI protocol barriers of sheet metal, denim, auto glass, etc. the FBI are not idiots, and their studies have done much more to advance bullet science and constructuion than Mr. Yeager, who mentions none of those things. Also, if you are limited to 10 round mags, the .40 can make sense as well.
“The .40 has heavier bullet weight potential, more kinetic energy potentail, and tends to deflect less than the 9 mm against intermediate barriers, perhaps.”
In a very tiny sense. the truth, from a practical standpoint, is that 9mm vs 40 vs 45 will yield no victor since ALL handguns perform inferior to long guns.
“The FBI and Olin and Smith and Wesson developed the .40 Smith. They also developed the FBI protocol barriers of sheet metal, denim, auto glass, etc. the FBI are not idiots, and their studies have done much more to advance bullet science and constructuion than Mr. Yeager, who mentions none of those things. Also, if you are limited to 10 round mags, the .40 can make sense as well.”
Those FBI standards are the very reason why 9mm not measurably inferior compared to 40 and 45. http://www.mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
Another BB gun fan, I see. Yes, there is a difference in the different calibers, otherwise everyone would be carrying a Browning Buckmark 22 (a great gun that I own, by the way).
“Another BB gun fan, I see. Yes, there is a difference in the different calibers, otherwise everyone would be carrying a Browning Buckmark 22 (a great gun that I own, by the way).”
*facepalm
read the link again cupcake.
im not sure WHERE people on here learned about logic, but supporting the idea that handgun cartridges are more or less similar in their performance is NOT advocating the use of buckmark 22s. this is getting really stupid.
smwlce says that their is a negligible difference in the performance between calibers so why not go with the higher capacity. If you read my posts on this subject above and below you will see a great difference between, say, a 38 special with under 200 ftlbs energy and a 357 magnum with 650 ftlbs energy. 40 is a great compromise caliber. Those that dont get it, get the 22lr buckmark…..cupcake.
“smwlce says that their is a negligible difference in the performance between calibers so why not go with the higher capacity.”
Yes I am saying that. Is it starting to make sense now?
“If you read my posts on this subject above and below you will see a great difference between, say, a 38 special with under 200 ftlbs energy and a 357 magnum with 650 ftlbs energy.”
which has fuck all to do with what were talking about. Im talking about the difference between 9mm, 40, and 45.
“40 is a great compromise caliber. Those that dont get it, get the 22lr buckmark…..cupcake.”
compelling. utterly compelling. (not)
40 is NOT a great compromise. You have higher chamber pressures, which increase wear and decrease durability in the long term. Ask any police agency about their Glock 22s and the pain in the ass they have been.
youre a dumbass if you think im advocating the 22lr. you guys need to drop that horse shit.
Why is going from 19 to 17 on the capacity (between a g17 and g22) such a big diff when you can take advantage of the galaxy of 40s&w defensive rounds vs a few +p (which increase the chamber pressure anyway)? I think we have to agree to disagree on the merits of wound volume, stretch cavity incapacitation (500 to 650 ftlbs is best range in humans before diminishing margin of return), bullet effectiveness (due to larger diameter and range of energy and weight-135-200grain choices), durability and reliability (Glocks really dont break…even less so with 4 gen which erased the flashlight mount shaking lose problem on the 40’s…but I would go with 9mm if pressed). I believe (like most) that the 40 is a fine compromise between the 9 and 45 and that these really are the ‘big three’ with certain charms between them.
Yeager isn’t exactly what I’m looking for in a firearms instructor/mentor.
This is not the firearms instructor you’re looking for.
Bull! I have a Beretta PX4 in .40 caliber and love it! Probably could out shoot most anyone else with whatever they bring to the table. James can go suck rocks!
God, why does everyone love this argument so much? There is no such thing as a magic bullet. Handguns suck at killing people. You have to shoot them a bunch of times, typically, to incapacitate them.
Shot placement and personal preference.
That is all that matters.
Another Browning Buckmark 22 carrier, I see.
FLAME DELETED
Flames dont come out of a Buckmark 22.
if you want to find out what my buckmark looks like, just try to mug me in the dead of night. im sure youll enjoy your philosophical argument about the “great compromise” of 40.
anyways, nobody cares dude. you like your 40, I prefer my 9mm and 45s because they last longer. I KNOW somebody as inexperienced as you doesnt know anything about the faults of the 40 because you dont fire enough rounds down range to make a objective comparison.
Ive tried the wonder cartridges: the 10mm, 357 sig, and 40 S&W and none of them have impressed me worth a damn. theyre still pistol cartridges.
The Glock 22 is the most popular pistol for law enforcement in the country. Comparing it with niche calibers like the 10 and sig is disingenuous at best. The 40s&w is a member of the big three with the 9mm and 45. Nobody would really believe the 9 to be the equal of the 22lr. The only negative the 40 has (to some) is the snap recoil. It is viewed (by most) to be a great compromise between the 9 and 45 with a few advantages and disadvantages (just like the other two calibers of the ‘big three’).
He’s trained 3,000 people this year? Almost 100 people a day seems like a certificate mill.
Caliber wise, I’m good with whatever a gal or fella is comfortable with – that’s the whole point. Personally I find .45’s, large or small, the easiest to shoot – that nice slow push up to the right suits me fine. I have .40’s and 9mm’s that I really like but .45’s make me happiest. Carry what you shoot best and are most comfortable with. Period.
Perhaps selling DVDs now counts as having trained people. Next year, people will start adding in the number of subscribers to their YouTube channels.
No kidding, huh?
“He’s trained 3,000 people this year? Almost 100 people a day seems like a certificate mill.”
You’re off by a factor of ~10. 3000/365 = 8.2
redo your math apbt. youre wrong.
Actually I agree that when you compare the most popular rounds, 9 mm, 40 and 45 acp, might as well shoot whats comfortable since the ballistics aren’t much different; until you come to the 10 mm; it truly is a magnum round in a semi -auto pistol with a 15 round magazine.
1375 ft per sec. with 750 foot lbs of energy; this is almost 400 ft. Per sec. Faster than a 45ACP and about 250 ft. lb more of energy; in a full sized Glock 20 pistol, the extra mass makes the shooting characteristics such that quick follow up shots are easy to make; since I OC the full sized pistol is not an issue for ease or comfort to carry.
10mm, that’s all that needs to be said.
Well, unless someone like me brings up the .45 WinMag, which has about 250 ft-lb more than the 10mm.
I was on a shooting range once with a deputy sheriff from rural Arizona who was shooting a LAR Grizzly in .45 WM. I met him because I wanted to find out who the heck was dumping hot brass into the side of my head.
I found the source of the brass 20 yards to my left. Heck of a gun, that LAR.
.460 Rowland is no slouch either. Then again many moons ago AMT cataloged a 10mm Magnum
I looked at the LAR but I don’t like to get to far away from popular rounds. Thats just me.
I’m really impressed with the. 460 rowland; I really like the idea of a conversion of a popular round like the. 45 ACP to some thing with the ballistics of the. 460 but you can switch it back to. 45 if you only have that ammo on hand.
It’s another reason I like the Glock 20, I have a change out barrel from wolf to shoot the 40 cal for practice, then I can simply put the 10 mm barrel back in for my defense rounds.
My next purchase will probably be a good 1911 just so I can have that option.
I was just reading more about the. 460 rowland; the info I read is that the conversion also allows one to shoot the. 45 acp, +p and .45 super cartriges without changing out the barrel. That is a very nice option!
Also, about the number of different guns that are useable like a Glock 21.
500 Smith & Wesson.1600 fps and 2100 ft-lbs of energy at 50 yards.
I have looked briefly at the .460 Rowland. It is yet another high-pressure round, stoked to probably at least 35kPSI, if not higher. Many of the conversions I see have comps on the front of them.
Absurd potential for single-shot hearing damage right there. Just say “no” to compensators and muzzle brakes. They’re incredibly destructive where your hearing is concerned. I now see that some hunting outfitters are putting down their feet and telling clients to dispense with bringing rifles that have brakes on them to a hunt.
Carry the G20 myself.Have the Lone Wolf barrel to shoot the .40 to warm up.Great value and versatility in the G20.One can tone it down if it’s a concern or go full tilt to real 10mm capabilty.UnderWoodAmmo is the go to for real 10mm and priced right.
In humans, 500 to 750 footpounds is all the nerve cells potential can handle without diminishing margins of return (according to the fuller index). Its hard to carry and shoot a howitzer, anyway.
I’ve always tried to take into consideration what round a weapon was designed for when shopping for a new handgun. Usually this has effects on mag capacity and grip thickness, i.e. the optimal magazine for a .45 will be thicker than a .40 will be thicker than a 9mm. But I think Yeager makes a valid point regarding wear and shootability with the up-loading of 9mm handguns to .40. My question, though, is can anyone enlighten me with those handguns he mentions that were designed for .40 in the first place, rather than scaled up or down from a 9mm or .45? One person mentioned the USP, any others?
I’ve always found the ballistics of the .40 to be intriguing, but in my limited experience they are far less pleasurable to shoot than 9mm and .45.
to be brutally honest with you, the USP 40 is the only one I know of. Perhaps there is the P30 in 40, though I have my doubts about that too.
Come on. The Gen4 G22 aint gonna break. You will give out before it does. Then you replace the spring and keep on shootin. Almost all the cops and the feds use it. The people on this forum are just pissed that the 40 ended the 9/45 debate. The handgun caliber wars are over. Actually, each has its niche…..with the 40 being the ‘compromise’ gun.
there is no “end” to the debate. they perform similarly.
G22’s break all the time, as does any gun that is used heavily.
The 38 special with 175 ftlbs performs the same as the 45 and 40 with 550 ftlbs energy? Not the same.
“The 38 special with 175 ftlbs performs the same as the 45 and 40 with 550 ftlbs energy? Not the same.”
fuck.
Do try and stay on subject. Im talking about modern defensive pistol cartridges, not 38 special. That is a fat red herring if there ever was one.
9mm, 40 and 45. They perform very similarly. And they suck compared to long guns.
Actually, many people do compare hot 38+p’s with 9 (I do think 9mm is superior in its +p which approaches the punch effect you need in stretch cavity incapacitation). I think the 40s&w is the best of the big three and certainly comes closer to the 357 magnum ballistics than the 9mm, as does the 45).
Previous caliber opinions:
– A .45 is too expensive too practice with (TTAG comments)
-A .357 revolver is too loud (TTAG author)
-Rifles and shotguns are too big for home defense, because its harder to open doors and hit switches (TTAG author)
-.40 Smith has too much recoil (Yeager)
-10mm has too much recoil (FBI)
-Handguns don’t have stopping power (comments here)
Just sayin’.
You have very pithily reflected my opinion on the matter:
“The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun. If you didn’t observe this rule… all the other rules pretty much don’t matter.”
Meaning: The best gun in a gunfight is the one in your hands. If that’s a .22LR semi-auto, then you’d better make it work. If you’re carrying a .22LR as a matter of course, then you’d better be practicing a fair bit to increase the odds you can make it work. If I’m in a situation where the organic fertilizer has hit the turbine impellers, I’d not going to get finicky about what’s in my hands. The 7.65 Browning Euro-weenie semi-auto that I can conceal and carry every day is worth oh-so-much more than the lovingly tuned 1911 with full house handloads that I can conceal only in the winter months in Montana/Wyoming.
Guns, contrary to the popular received opinion of the safety-nannies and the hoplophobes, are not magic talisman. Opponents don’t instantly fall down dead (much less fly backwards through plate glass windows) because someone waved said handgun in the general direction of the intended decedent , while canting said handgun to the left and grimacing meaningfully for the audience as the scene is recorded with five cameras from different angles at hundreds of frames per second.
The job at hand is to stop the attack. If the shooter really wants to stop the attack, they’d better know something about human physiology and choose target areas with central nervous system or critical circulatory structure sub-targets.
The reality is that sometimes, even skilled and experienced shootists don’t put the target down. Jim Cirillo told us of one encounter in the back of a grocery store where he literally ran into the perp, backed up and shot him in the face with a .38. As Jim said at the time “It didn’t get any more point-blank than this, guys. We’re talking arm’s length.” The perp went down. Jim and Al went further into the rear of the store to see if there was anyone else – there was no one else. They come back to where they think there’s a body on the ground and they just about jump out of their shoes when the guy gets up and asks “Hey man, whatchu do that for? You done shot me in the face!”
And so Jim did. The bullet hit the frontal area of the perp’s left cheekbone and then rode around his skull under the skin and scalp, exiting behind his left ear. He lived to go to prison.
Just for the record, I saw Jimmy and Al shoot on paper. Those old gents could put the rounds where they wanted them, out of pretty much any handgun they picked up. Jimmy also demonstrated shooting at a rock about the size of a human head at 100 yards – and he hit it 5 out of 6 times with a revolver, no sweat, no problem. So it wasn’t that Jim needed more practice. Sometimes, bullets just don’t work the way we think they’re going to.
This. A 22lr through the eye can be just as effective as a 45 through the heart… But anything less than an obviously fatal wound may only have temporarily incapacitated the BG.
Moral of the story: shoot for effect, neutralize the threat, then retreat to safety if at all possible.
Temporary incapacitation is the name of the game, and why the high energy 357 is so beloved (to the shooters, of course.
I know Jim has a lot more experience than I, but I can place 100% of my shots in the black on the ccw test target. I have had a Steyr M40 for 10 years and though I haven’t put 50,000 rounds through it, it hasn’t failed me yet. I only put about 250 rounds a year through it. The M40 is the first 40 with a fully supported chamber and was designed, blank slate, for the 40. I shoot the M40 better than my 380.
Kudos to you Jim for what you do, but I’ll continue with my Steyr M40.
Too many folks mistakenly defend the .40 because THEY (personally) have gotten used to the recoil and learned to shoot great with it (through practice). They automatically assume and assign their personal experience to the general population.
I know someone who tried recommending an M&P Shield 40 as a FIRST handgun to someone… *rolling my eyes*
this.
They defend the 40 without realizing that, like the 45, they are bargaining for smaller magazine sizes trying to get in the middle of the 45 vs 9mm debate.
stupidity. Just go with a 9mm and be done with the $*#(er. XD
Well, if we carry your argument to it’s logical conclusion, you’d be packing a double-stack .22LR or .22WMR semi-auto, yes?
So why aren’t you?
“Well, if we carry your argument to it’s logical conclusion, you’d be packing a double-stack .22LR or .22WMR semi-auto, yes?”
No. you seem to have a misunderstanding of what im suggesting as far as a ideal pistol cartridge is concerned. You need to research the FBI wound ballistic standards. Obviously 22 doesnt meet those standards, which is why im not endorsing it.
“So why aren’t you?”
Because 22 doesnt meet the FBI wound ballistic standards. plain and simple.
Im not sure how my logical assertion that 40, 45, 357 sig and all of these other cartridges are not measurably better than 9mm got twisted into “you should carry a 22 cuz you have more bullets”.
smwlce, I’m pretty sure Dyspeptic Gunsmith is familiar with the FBI ballistic standards…
“smwlce, I’m pretty sure Dyspeptic Gunsmith is familiar with the FBI ballistic standards…”
IF he was as familiar as you seem to think he is, then he wouldnt have even brought up 22 into the argument.
I’m familiar with the FBI wound ballistic standards. I find the FBI’s tests somewhat amusing, because they keep moving their own goalposts, but that’s a whole ‘nother issue. The upshot is that today, it seems everyone is obsessed with penetration of the bullet in ballistics gel.
But, OK. Let’s play that game.
Years ago, the FBI carried .357’s, a handgun which I can argue can be loaded to out-penetrate just about anything else in their spectrum of ‘approved’ cartridges. Penetration is a function of velocity first, sectional density second. A .357 Mag loaded with 158’s or 180’s will penetrate a whole lot of stuff. In short, when the FBI turned their back on the .357 and started down the road with the 10mm (which was, after all, then the parent of the .40 S&W, which is the point of this thread), they ignored the facts at hand, and decided to spend our tax dollars chasing Smurfs and Unicorns – which is the usual want of federal bureaucrats. They love new toys. The truth was that there wasn’t a damn thing “wrong” with the .357. They could have simply asked for a new JHP design. But noooooo…. they wanted a whole new cartridge… and guns to shoot that cartridge! Money was spent by the dump truck full.
But let’s go back to the .22LR: In the FBI’s ballistics gel tests, the .22LR with a 40gr RNL pill penetrated 12 inches, which is supposedly their cut-off point for minimum usable wounding ballistics, and “18 inches is better,” then a .22LR/WMR with a jacketed bullet would likely give such penetration. Given the small frontal area of the .22 solid point projective, clothing will not matter much in penetration of these projectiles, whereas in some cases, JHP rounds get clogged with the fabric and penetrate more deeply than a FMJ round from the same gun with the same projectile weight. Per the above, wound ballistics are an inexact thing.
The FBI protocols also generate data for shooting through 20 gauge sheet steel (ie, car doors), wallboard (2 0.5″ sheets 3.5″ apart to simulate interior walls) and so on. If you, as a non-LEO are involved in a shooting situation where you’re shooting through car doors, sheetrock interior walls and so on… you might want to have a lawyer on speed dial. Let’s dispense with worrying about such tests for DGU ammunition – because we won’t be doing this type of shooting.
Why aren’t the .22’s rated as acceptable to law enforcement? Because they don’t quickly incapacitate, and this is a function of the size of their permanent wound channel, per what the FBI likes to state. Ah, so bullet diameter does matter… but only when we get down under .30, I guess. Still, if you had, oh, 30 rounds of .22LR RNL bullets, and you put 10 into someone very quickly, they’re likely going to bleed out faster than if poked with a couple rounds of 9mm – which goes back to your argument: If you want more rounds, why are you carrying only 15 rounds of 9mm, when you could be carrying 30 rounds of .22? Why do you care what the FBI has to say? The results are there for everyone to see. The classic .22LR penetrates the minimum distance required.
So why isn’t everyone jumping on the “let’s carry a .22LR semi-auto with a double-stacked mag of 30 rounds?”
I’ll go back to Fackler’s findings from the mid-90’s: Since the FBI decided to start evaluation of handgun wound ballistics in ’87, it has been found that heavier bullets that meet the minimum penetration requirement(s) of the FBI tests perform better. The results were published in the 90’s in the IWBA journal, which (sadly) are not available online. In a 9mm, about the heaviest pill you can launch is a 147gr. In a .45… well, I can launch anything from 185gr up to 260gr.
In short, wounding efficacy is positively correlated with bullet mass. Since there are limits to the length of bullets for a particular caliber, at some point, if you want more mass, you’ll be moving up in diameter.
If I could go into a fight carrying a Chevy 454 big block and huck it at someone, I would. Because when someone gets a 454 big block dropped on their head, they usually quit whatever it was they were doing. Even if they live, they’re not getting up to annoy me further. Since I can’t huck engine blocks at assailants, I’ll fall back on the nearest thing I can get – big, fat, heavy pills.
I tried to warn the guy…poor bastich……
Despite the abundance of the information you have provided, not to mention the length of your post, I still dont agree that 45 is “better” than 9mm.
Nobody was suggesting using 22. Comparing a 22 to a modern defensive cartridge and applying it to the argument in favor of the 9mm is simply a fallacy.
Im not sure why somebody decided it was a bright idea to bring up 22s to begin with. Somehow the superior magazine capacity and controllability of a 9mm compared to a 45 somehow invited the stupid assumption that that logic somehow favors using a 22. A 22 typically has 1-200 joules of energy versus the 4-500 joules of a 9mm. Again, it is absurd that 22 was even mentioned.
A giant non sequitur if there ever was one.
Without blowing this out of proportion, if you want a handgun cartridge that is measurably superior to the rest of the others in its class, stick with a 357 and up…oh of course theres those pesky tradeoffs of magazine (or cylinder) size, recoil, and size of the firearm itself. No wonder were taught that pistols are only good for hiding on our person or fighting to a long gun.
Ultimate reply to smwlce is at the end of the thread.
smwlce, you’ve said several times in this comment thread that .45 has no greater capability than a 9mm. Please back up this assertion.
You can validly argue that 9mm is cheaper, or that a given platform can carry more 9mm than .45. But I can grab some calipers and measure a fully expanded 9mm 147 gr Federal HST and it comes out around 0.75 inch (about the size of a nickel); if I do the same with a 230 gr .45 HST, I get around 1.1 inch (about the size of a half-dollar). That’s a measurable (literally) increase in probability of nicking an artery, vein, or nerve trunk; or even several – which is what a bullet has to do for rapid incapacitation.
Also, any hollow point in the world can fail. They can be plugged with odd substances or have the rim dented so it doesn’t open properly. That happens much less often with recent designs, but it can happen. In that case, the diameter of the wound channel is the minimum diameter of the starting slug: 0.355 or 0.452 inch.
Furthermore, I can put them on a scale and the 230 gr slug is indeed 56% more massive than the one marked 147 gr. That means it has a non-zero increased probability of keeping more on its aimed path rather than deviating when it encounters an angled surface or dense obstruction. When a bullet meets a bone, it most often encounters a rounded surface – which means there is an angle of incidence and reflection to the impact. The slug resists that deflection with momentum, which keys most heavily on the constant mass of a bonded bullet. A bigger bullet carries out its assigned task better than a lighter one.
This is not a negligible performance difference between the two.
As to larger magazine capacity: while that gives you more potential flexibility for a presumptive longer encounter, your most precious resource in a gunfight is time. You want to stop the encounter as quickly as possible before something awful happens to you or someone/something you care about.
A modern 9mm cartridge has the capability to reach vital tissues/structures, with sufficiently large wound channel to matter, in a large enough variety of impact-angle and bullet-path scenarios to be reliable. (That is, it can expand to roughly 0.75 inch diameter, plus it meets the FBI’s requirement of 12 to 18 inches of penetration in calibrated ballistic gelatin.) These are parameters that the .380 Auto and .22 Rimfire under-perform, and the .357 Magnum and .40 S&W over-perform (unless there’s an additional barrier involved like a car door). So a 9mm is sufficient and can reliably get the job done so long as you do your job.
But saying there’s no additional benefit to the .45 and that it doesn’t make the shooter’s job marginally, but measurably, easier is sophistry.
“smwlce, you’ve said several times in this comment thread that .45 has no greater capability than a 9mm. Please back up this assertion.”
Here you go http://www.mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
“You can validly argue that 9mm is cheaper, or that a given platform can carry more 9mm than .45. But I can grab some calipers and measure a fully expanded 9mm 147 gr Federal HST and it comes out around 0.75 inch (about the size of a nickel); if I do the same with a 230 gr .45 HST, I get around 1.1 inch (about the size of a half-dollar). That’s a measurable (literally) increase in probability of nicking an artery, vein, or nerve trunk; or even several – which is what a bullet has to do for rapid incapacitation.”
The difference between FBI standard 9mm and 45 is typically .12″ inch. Sure, that is measurable for proponents of 45ACP, though from a practical standpoint, especially compared to a long gun, this is negligible since pistols are characteristically inferior. The same argument can be applied in comparing 15-17 9mm rounds versus 7-10 rounds of 45 ACP: increasing your odds of hitting a vital structure.
“Also, any hollow point in the world can fail. They can be plugged with odd substances or have the rim dented so it doesn’t open properly. That happens much less often with recent designs, but it can happen. In that case, the diameter of the wound channel is the minimum diameter of the starting slug: 0.355 or 0.452 inch.”
and I will not say otherwise. Obviously no cartridge is perfect, especially hollow points. Many argue that 45 FMJ is better than 9mm FMJ, which is compelling since you are taking expansion out of the equation.
“Furthermore, I can put them on a scale and the 230 gr slug is indeed 56% more massive than the one marked 147 gr. That means it has a non-zero increased probability of keeping more on its aimed path rather than deviating when it encounters an angled surface or dense obstruction. When a bullet meets a bone, it most often encounters a rounded surface – which means there is an angle of incidence and reflection to the impact. The slug resists that deflection with momentum, which keys most heavily on the constant mass of a bonded bullet. A bigger bullet carries out its assigned task better than a lighter one.”
Not necessarily. The first part of this assertion was a going well until you concluded it with a “bigger bullet carries out its assigned task better”. This simply not true. Though many proponents of 45 ACP will strongly disagree, since they seem pretty adamant on ignoring the negligible differences in kinetic energy and diameter.
I also disagree with the 45’s implied increased probability in keeping with its aligned path because of its mass. In fact, this comparison is rendered moot since 9mm FMJ is infamous for over penetration, especially in the case of military ammunition. Conversely, 45 ACP is well known for its inferior barrier penetrating capabilities.
“This is not a negligible performance difference between the two.”
Actually it is. Especially when you compare a 7 shot 45 ACP to a 15 round 9mm. Especially when you compare modern defensive ammunition held to FBI standards.
“As to larger magazine capacity: while that gives you more potential flexibility for a presumptive longer encounter, your most precious resource in a gunfight is time. You want to stop the encounter as quickly as possible before something awful happens to you or someone/something you care about.”
Exactly. Thank you for bolstering my point. a 15 round magazine will buy you more time in a fight than a 7-10 round magazine. This is irrefutable.
45 proponents continually throw out “well i ONLY need seven rounds, its a 45”, which is BS. When somebody with a 15-17 round magazine of 9mm keeps shooting, somebody with a 7-8 round in 45 will have to take time out of the right to reload.
“A modern 9mm cartridge has the capability to reach vital tissues/structures, with sufficiently large wound channel to matter, in a large enough variety of impact-angle and bullet-path scenarios to be reliable. (That is, it can expand to roughly 0.75 inch diameter, plus it meets the FBI’s requirement of 12 to 18 inches of penetration in calibrated ballistic gelatin.) These are parameters that the .380 Auto and .22 Rimfire under-perform, and the .357 Magnum and .40 S&W over-perform (unless there’s an additional barrier involved like a car door). So a 9mm is sufficient and can reliably get the job done so long as you do your job.”
Yes. My point exactly.
“But saying there’s no additional benefit to the .45 and that it doesn’t make the shooter’s job marginally, but measurably, easier is sophistry.”
No its established fact backed my empirical evidence within the self defense community. It rubs 45 ACP proponents raw because they are hellbent on self-edification that they made the superior choice.
http://www.mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
“I also disagree with the 45′s implied increased probability in keeping with its aligned path because of its mass.”
You’re actually going to go on record “disagreeing” with the Laws of Motion?
“Exactly. Thank you for bolstering my point. a 15 round magazine will buy you more time in a fight than a 7-10 round magazine. This is irrefutable.”
That is the opposite of the point. If you can fire 3 rounds of .45 in the same time you can fire 3 rounds of 9mm, you have a greater percent chance of successful, rapid incapacitation of the target with the larger round.
When I say your most precious resource in a gunfight is time, I mean that you shouldn’t expect to always have the extra seconds to fire off the additional rounds in a 9mm platform.
Or to paraphrase it another way: the guy who dies with the most rounds remaining in his gun…still dies.
You keep trying to paint people who use a .45 (or even .40 in this thread) as cantankerous fanatics; increasingly so as time goes on. You’ve ignored basic physics and condescended to one of the most knowledgeable and respected posters on this site. Please step back a moment and consider that.
“You’re actually going to go on record “disagreeing” with the Laws of Motion?”
Really!?
thats what you got out of my response to that paragraph? go read it again.
“That is the opposite of the point. If you can fire 3 rounds of .45 in the same time you can fire 3 rounds of 9mm, you have a greater percent chance of successful, rapid incapacitation of the target with the larger round.”
Your point is irrelevant. My original contention was that larger capacity magazines keep you in the fight longer. Smaller magazines need replaced.
The fact is that most people cannot fire three rounds of 45 in the same time as a 9mm. Certainly now without degradation of your shot groupings.
“When I say your most precious resource in a gunfight is time, I mean that you shouldn’t expect to always have the extra seconds to fire off the additional rounds in a 9mm platform.”
???
I would rather have 15 rounds than 8. hands down. Since you’re so adamant about the resource of time, then I would rather have super rapid fire controllability and reload in the least amount of time.
As far as “time” is concerned, why would you opt for a larger caliber with a smaller magazine and heavier recoil?
To me that is anything but logical.
“Or to paraphrase it another way: the guy who dies with the most rounds remaining in his gun…still dies.”
Which has what to do with the argument at hand?
“You keep trying to paint people who use a .45 (or even .40 in this thread) as cantankerous fanatics; increasingly so as time goes on. You’ve ignored basic physics and condescended to one of the most knowledgeable and respected posters on this site. Please step back a moment and consider that.”
They are acting like fanatics. Every time somebody presents logic and empirical evidence contrary to the myth that 45 is some kind of super man killer, they get ostracized and insulted. Its really childish.
I will not step back from well-established fact, no matter how strong your group-think circle is. That is contradictory to the scientific method.
45 ACP fanatics constantly ignore well-established fact within various United States Military training courses (such as JFKSWCS and US Army Marksmanship Unit to name a few) , private professional courses, and ballistics experts because it is sacrilegious towards their tradition. It is simply a clash of old vs new.
The 9mm is not in the same league as the 45 and 40. If you read my above posts you will see why. The average 9mm has about 300 to 350 ft lbs energy and a smaller entry diameter and bullet mass. The 40 and 45 simply have more to work with in all realms. They can also attain the internal punch effect that I have stated several times in this post. The 357 overperforms….huh? There is a reason the 357 was the go to round when revolvers were carried and hollowpoints were used. Wise up.
“The 9mm is not in the same league as the 45 and 40.”
Actually it is, if you would have read the link i have so kindly provided many times. It is “in the same league”. Sorry.
“If you read my above posts you will see why.”
Which offer no facts or empirical evidence. Call me unconvinced.
“The average 9mm has about 300 to 350 ft lbs energy and a smaller entry diameter and bullet mass.”
Yeah if you’re using target ammunition. With modern defensive ammunition, push those ft lbs up to the 400-500 range, which is very similar to equivalent 45 ACP and 40 S&W. Ooops.
” The 40 and 45 simply have more to work with in all realms. They can also attain the internal punch effect that I have stated several times in this post. ”
“internal punch” huh. again, im unconvinced.
“The 357 overperforms….huh? There is a reason the 357 was the go to round when revolvers were carried and hollowpoints were used. Wise up.”
Yeah, and if you read the f–king reply, there are huge tradeoffs with the 357 and 44 magnum. You are typically limited to revolvers (unless you carry a f–king desert eagle), with six shots, which are slow and meticulous to reload and offer inferior suppressive fire ability. Wise up.
A s&w 627pro with 8 rounds has its uses as a revolver and is no slouch (44 mag is good for Bear but can be loaded with 44 special). Only exotic rounds like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap get 500+ lbs energy in 9mm and are still inferior than the 40 and 45 with the same energy (though, with those above exotic brands they achieve over 700 ftlbs). If you dont get the internal punch effect, let somebody punch you in the solar plexus and all will be revealed. The range and versatility of the 40 is amazing with a HUGE selection of extremely effective defensive rounds to choose from (a opposed to a very few 9mm that are +p+). I have a conversion barrel in my Glock 22 for 9mm and a micro 9 gun as well so I understand what the caliber has to offer. Ha ha I think I made you wiser.
“A s&w 627pro with 8 rounds has its uses as a revolver and is no slouch (44 mag is good for Bear but can be loaded with 44 special).”
And its also huge, slow to reload, and has heavier recoil. Yes, it is powerful, but there are tradeoffs and it is not practical as a concealed carry gun.
“Only exotic rounds like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap get 500+ lbs energy in 9mm ”
Nope. try again.
http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php
There are more than two brands. and you are still trying to compare target ammunition with high end 40 and 45. intellectually dishonest to say the least.
Again, similar ammunition from a 40 and 45 creates very similar energies. Thats not discounting the grand scheme of things, which reveals that 1-200 lbs of energy is negligible in the big picture.
“and are still inferior than the 40 and 45 with the same energy (though, with those above exotic brands they achieve over 700 ftlbs).”
Inferior how? they still achieve similar penetration and kinetic energy, not to mention that the energy displacement due to their diameter differences is negligible. again. like i have said twenty times already.
“If you dont get the internal punch effect, let somebody punch you in the solar plexus and all will be revealed.”
save that BS for another person. Internal punch has no relevance to scientific fact whatsoever.
“The range and versatility of the 40 is amazing with a HUGE selection of extremely effective defensive rounds to choose from (a opposed to a very few 9mm that are +p+).”
its still a pistol cartridge dude. it is only ideal for concealed carry and to fight your way to a long gun. I could give two shits less about the plethora of ammunition available (even with the 45), as long as the ammunition i have in my pistol meets FBI specifications.
“I have a conversion barrel in my Glock 22 for 9mm and a micro 9 gun as well so I understand what the caliber has to offer. Ha ha I think I made you wiser.”
I really doubt you did. In fact, I feel dumber for continuing to respond to your comments.
like i said before, if you think my 9mm is only good for target shooting, then kick my door into splinters in the middle of the night. A well placed round is anything but “puny”.
Agreed on the consealment issue. But as a nightstand gun it is hard to beat. Pull the trigger and the revolver goes bang, period. Eight rounds of med velocity 357 should really do it so one can get to a long gun, and its weight aids in recoil control.
More power and versatility makes the 40s&w tough to beat. The police were wise in choosing this caliber more than the 9mm and 45 in their guns, though, any of the ‘big three’ do the job. If you want to get close to 357 magnum ballistics, you may have to choose between the 40 or 45 (the big bores) for the faster incapacitation.
If one wants to get close to a 357,simply use a full power 10mm.Some nip at heals of .41 mag.Plus it’s a auto loader.Just saying.
I had a Glock 20. A great outdoor gun but it is large and the ammo price and selection is not great. You can put a 40 conversion barrel in it as well. It has a place with the 357 sig.
FLAME DELETED A G22 with 17 rounds is hardly a smaller magazine size. You get low to high powered rounds in the 135 to 200 grain range and can put a 9mm barrel in for cheap shoots. Think about it. Almost all the cops and feds cant be wrong. I want the internal punch effect of the pressure wave from a stretch (temporary) cavity that gives you an incapacitating ability you dont get with the 9mm.
save it.
your 40 is measurably not any better. get over it. if you were indeed correct, military and law enforcement would have adopted 40 a long time ago, which they didn’t.
Military is radically different than law enforcement (who use 40 over all else by a wide margine). Nice try. 9 is good for ladies and micro guns.
“Military is radically different than law enforcement (who use 40 over all else by a wide margine). Nice try. 9 is good for ladies and micro guns.”
it is not “radically different”. If what you say is true, the USSOCOM would not be using 9mms anymore. Obviously that is not the case.
law enforcement dont use 40 “by a wide margin” either. they still use 9mm and 45 and have transitioned to those calibers because of problems glock had with their 40s.
Military function mainly in large teams with long guns and heavy stuff so tactics are different. They dont use hollowpoints (which would make me go 45) but do value penetration which propably does not hurt the 9 so much. Dont know if some are transitioning out….or in to the 40 and what the national 40 population is in the various deptartments and if its shrinking or what. Dont know if Feds are having problems with their issued guns either (the G22 and G23).
Good point. Like just picking up and carrying full power 125grain 357s instead of shooting 38s, and then 38+p, and then low power 357. It takes work if you want get the beneifit of higher energy rounds in your carry package. Study and practice.
Mark me down as another “whatevAr.” I carry a G27. I can comfortably put a couple hundred rounds through it at the range without crying. And, I’m an “average” sized guy. At self-defense distances, I can make a single ragged hole in the target. Good enough for me. Hope I never have to use it.
My first handgun was a G19 (9-mm). Then I got a G23. Then came the G27 for EDC. Is .40 “snappy?” Yep. So what? It doesn’t seem to bother me. Pick what works for you. No need to justify it by disparaging the other caliber choices.
Exactly my point, right above your post lol. It should have nothing to do with YOU, as it pertains to other people.
Yes… Since I’m known as a “gun guy,” I’m often asked by newbies: “Which is the best gun to get?” and… “What’s the best caliber?”
I’m proud to say that my answer to both is: “There is no such thing as the ‘best’ gun / caliber. It depends on many factors… What’s best for me may not be best for you. In fact, there isn’t even a single ‘best’ for me. That’s why I have many guns.” And, then I may go on to discuss what those “many factors” are.
I’ve had this discussion with buddies before. 40 is king in their eyes. Fine. I’m a big guy, and I shoot 9. I usually just tell them with a smile that I’m “recoil sensitive.”
9mm:
http://www.icetraining.info/131/
I love that link! its on my favorites! so youre telling me that its not sensible to limit your magazine when your “bigger” caliber is not measurably more effective than the higher cap 9mm???
Say it aint so! LOL.
😀
But it really is measurably more effective. Why would a moron want to be hit with a hot 357 instead of a regular 9mm (of course, you would want to be hit with neither). A large stretch (temporary) cavity can incapacitate when the pressure wave hits a nerve center (like a sharp blow to the body from a baton). 9mm are great for micro guns like the Keltec pf9 and range practice with a replacement barrel and a Browning Buckmark 22 on the side.
dude, give it up. nobody cares. stop trolling.
Give what up? If you dont care, then why a reply to an old thread 10 days later? Got ya! If you are unconvinced about kinetic energy than dont put +p+ in your 9mm. End of story. Wise up. Ha ha
“Give what up? If you dont care, then why a reply to an old thread 10 days later? Got ya! If you are unconvinced about kinetic energy than dont put +p+ in your 9mm. End of story. Wise up. Ha ha”
I can reply to it as many times as i fucking feel like it.
people deserve to obtain good information and you are simply a fanboy peddling what has been repeated over and over again in various groupthink sessions.
i dont have to put +P+ in my 9mm wise ass.
Take it easy. Nobody said you cant reply….and you can even eat your desert BEFORE your dinner….so now I hope you feel better. +p is the only thing that gets the enery in the same league as the others. We are talking about the 9mm right? The G22 is BY FAR the most popular pistol for law enforcement in the country…THEY are the fanboyz. Incredible selection, versatility, and ability make the 40 a great choice if one is not bothered by the snap of some of the loads in some of the guns. There are advantages and disadvantages of the other two calibers in the big three (45 and 9) as well.
Worrying about your handgun failing after 50,000 rounds? REALLY?
The Glock 19 with +p ammo isn’t pretty damn snappy? Really? All these new compact 9’s and 45’s coming out and Pincus and Yeager most defiantly must have a case of the ass for those pistols right?
Speed of follow up shots….over-rated in real life given the usual engagement range.
So to sum up the argument, let us all use standard velocity 9mm, and aim for the face M’kay? This would be optimal under the Yeager doctrine.
Pincus and Yeager are now operating under the “any publicity is good” doctrine, and whether or not they believe half their own bullshit is definitely in question. Being ‘trained’ by them must be an experience in relentless sneering and put downs.
Put the front sight center of mass. Exercise decent trigger control. Shoot until the perp is on his face and or and can’t hurt you anymore.
Do it with what you have. What you like. What you carry. If your trainer doesn’t like it, find another who will teach you to get the most out of what you have.
“Worrying about your handgun failing after 50,000 rounds? REALLY?”
Durability is a concern, not 50,000 rounds. This is irrefutable fact when it pertains to 40s. they do break down more and faster, especially Glock.
“The Glock 19 with +p ammo isn’t pretty damn snappy? Really? All these new compact 9′s and 45′s coming out and Pincus and Yeager most defiantly must have a case of the ass for those pistols right?”
No not really. Especially the gen 4. Hell, the corbon and buffalo bore ive fired through my 19 feels just fine. obviously its a little harder than practice 9mm, though its definitely not as heavy as some 40s and 45s ive fired.
“Speed of follow up shots….over-rated in real life given the usual engagement range.”
Not remotely. Shot placement is fundamentally invaluable. If your follow up shots are slow, then you are damning yourself out of shot placement too.
“So to sum up the argument, let us all use standard velocity 9mm, and aim for the face M’kay? This would be optimal under the Yeager doctrine.”
You can if you want to. Military and law enforcement train for the “A” zone: upper chest, center of head (tip of the nose).
“Pincus and Yeager are now operating under the “any publicity is good” doctrine, and whether or not they believe half their own bullshit is definitely in question. Being ‘trained’ by them must be an experience in relentless sneering and put downs.”
Not remotely. And they are not the only ones that support Glocks and 9mms. I suppose they also sell this brand of “bullshit” to USSOCOM, DOD, and various units in the armed forces.
“Do it with what you have. What you like. What you carry. If your trainer doesn’t like it, find another who will…tell you what you want to hear so that he pats you on the back for the A+ choice you made with your self-defense handgun” there…fixed that for ya.
“Durability is a concern, not 50,000 rounds. This is irrefutable fact when it pertains to 40s.”
So what? You want an immortal gun? Go invent one.
“Shot placement is fundamentally invaluable”
Yeah. The first one especially. And the harder it hits, the better. If followups are such a major concern, then put down the .45 and get a .22.
“Military and law enforcement train”…
Well, the police caliber of choice is the .40, and the military’s gun of choice is the M-9. So your point is….
“they are not the only ones that support Glocks and 9mms.”
So the Seals like Sigs, Delta apparently likes HK’s and and the Marines are adopting a 1911.
Again, your point is nonsense.
” so that he pats you on the back for the A+ choice you made with your self-defense handgun”.
ANY, I repeat ANY instructor can have an opinion, He can suggest, but if he isn’t going to do what he’s paid to do, based on his personal biases, he isn’t worth a damn. If his ability to train is so overwhelmed by his need to be pious fanboy, then he should post a sign on the door, GLOCK 9mm and .45ACP ONLY. But guys like the ones in question, seem to have NO problem taking people’s money, and snickering behind their backs.
Next it’s gong to be REVOLVERS SUCK. Let’s see what Grant Cunningham thinks of that one.
“So what? You want an immortal gun? Go invent one.”
I would rather spend my money, even on a 500 glock, if it lasts longer. I dont know anybody who would think otherwise. 40s just dont last as long as 9mms or 45s. This is a well-established fact.
Nowhere did i mention or imply indestructible guns. Prop another strawman while youre at it.
“Yeah. The first one especially. And the harder it hits, the better. If followups are such a major concern, then put down the .45 and get a .22.”
the 22 does not meet FBI ballistics standards. Again, the 22 argument is another strawman.
shot placement is still important. Regardless of what various “commandoes” think, 45 will not bring the wrath of the gods down on a target.
“Well, the police caliber of choice is the .40, and the military’s gun of choice is the M-9. So your point is….”
No its not. Law enforcement carry a myriad of calibers, to include 40. You missed my point? shot placement is important. Center of mass is obsolete unless youre shooting taliban 400 meters with a M4.
“So the Seals like Sigs, Delta apparently likes HK’s and and the Marines are adopting a 1911s.”
Youre not painting the whole picture. The SIG 226/229, M9 Beretta, Mk 23 and 24, and Glock 19 and 22 are used by USSOCOM. FYI, the Marines didn’t adopt the Colt M45 CQBP 1911, they simply purchased those pistols to replace existing frames already in service. The SIG and M9 are the most common handguns in service with the US military. Thats not even getting into foreign special operations.
“Again, your point is nonsense.”
Its nonsense to you because I refuse to bow to the holy altar of 45. The fact that there is little or no measurable difference between 9mm and 45 is a battle between science and tradition. I dont have to tell you what stands where.
“ANY, I repeat ANY instructor can have an opinion, He can suggest, but if he isn’t going to do what he’s paid to do, based on his personal biases, he isn’t worth a damn. If his ability to train is so overwhelmed by his need to be pious fanboy, then he should post a sign on the door, GLOCK 9mm and .45ACP ONLY. But guys like the ones in question, seem to have NO problem taking people’s money, and snickering behind their backs.”
Im not sure who you are talking about. Tactical Response is a well renowned training company.
“Next it’s gong to be REVOLVERS SUCK. Let’s see what Grant Cunningham thinks of that one.”
*facepalm
textbook non sequitur.
Never did I say 45 or 40 sucks. you might want to re-read my posts.
The 9mm sucks (except in micro guns and for ammo sensitive girls). Almost all the cops and feds learned it the hard way so they use the 40. The stretch (temporary) cavity incapacitates.
pat, you might want to tell USSOCOM that. and countless Eurasian-derived special operations forces. Interesting. The “cops and feds” continue to use many 9mm handguns too. But why let facts get in the way? Stretch cavity? refer to the link I posted three times already. Modern auto pistols create very similar wound channels that are not any more game changing from the next one. If you want incapacitation, grab a shotgun or AR.
Military is a different kettle of fish (though 45 and 40 FMJ would be superior. Stretch cavity incapacitation in HANDGUNS get the most beneifit from 500 to 750 foot pounds energy (9mm is in the low 300’s standard). Smaller sectional diameter and mass sure dont help either.
You are right about not taking a handgun to a gunfight, but is that an M1A running down your leg or are you just happy to see me (meaning rifles are a bitch to carry concealed).
“Military is a different kettle of fish (though 45 and 40 FMJ would be superior. Stretch cavity incapacitation in HANDGUNS get the most beneifit from 500 to 750 foot pounds energy (9mm is in the low 300′s standard). ”
LOL nice try. but comparing target 9mm to defense 40 and 45 is a faulty comparison. Try, try again cupcake.
“Smaller sectional diameter and mass sure dont help either.”
you mean the .12″ difference between the 45 and 9mm? with the 40 being smaller?
Regular 9mm gets roughly 250 to 350 ftlbs energy with +p getting high 300 up to 450. 40 and 45 can get much more energy and use it way more effectively to defeat heavy clothing while generating a far greater temporary and permanent wound volume. It is this huge selection of great ammo in many ranges of bullet weight while not reducing the round count of the same size gun (19 rnds of 9mm in a G17 vs 17 rnds of 40 in a G22) that make the caliber so attractive. I put a 9mm conversion barrel in mine when I want to shoot that caliber and can change the gun permanently by changing out the extractor to use defensively if I desire.
“Regular 9mm gets roughly 250 to 350 ftlbs energy with +p getting high 300 up to 450.”
Wow. talk about being dishonest. dont worry, i provided a link that shows the contrary.
target 9mm is 300-350 on average. defensive ammunition can range from 4-500.
“40 and 45 can get much more energy ”
Nope. Much more would be 45 Super or 44 magnum. Those two cartridges are not capable of those energies. They are very similar.
“and use it way more effectively to defeat heavy clothing while generating a far greater temporary and permanent wound volume.”
far greater??? LOL. how about you start reading some references I have provided, including the one that you somehow think (though your danth’s law victimization) undermines my argument.
Look. 40 and 45 have more energy. Nothing wrong with the 9, but we will have to agree to disagree. I want to get close to (if I desire) 357 ability with certain loads (or load down to near 9mm levels). I like the ability to put lighter or heavier loads in my guns and have a large selection of ammunition to make these decisions. If you dont mind the snap of certain rounds and you are cool with living with the chance that a gen4 might break (they really dont) then you are doing ok….but get yourself a conversion barrel anyway.
Ultimate reply is at the end of the thread.
True. and when they finally do fail…replace the stupid spring and keep shooting or use a replacement barrel. With the Adrenaline pumping you wont notice the extra ‘kick’, but the bad guy will. The 9/45 debate has been terminated by the 40 and many people cant stand it.
yeah…terminated; because the G22 Glock in 40 has been the epitome of “perfection” LMAO!!! Its funny how problems with lower pressure 9mm and 45 are far less prevalent, though in your own delusional mind, 40 somehow “ends the debate”.
no matter how many times you say it, repetition doesnt transform your incorrect assertion into a correct one.
The repetition of countless rounds going off everyday in practice across this great nation as the police squeeze the trigger on their Glock 22 or similar 40s&w, the most popular caliber BY FAR is so loud I cant hear what your saying. The Feds are happy with the gun and round though they may break down every 1 in 900 thousand vs the Glock 9mm and its 1 in 950 thousand rounds. Reliability and durability arguments in a Glock platform……really?
“Reliability and durability arguments in a Glock platform……really?”
Yup. specifically the Glock 22. and they are well known among the law enforcement community.
I know, you must be a fanboy and any facts that highlight that Glock is anything but “perfection” have to be lies. all lies. 😀
Nope. Flashlights coming loose have been addressed. If it REALLY bothers you that the gen4 22 may have a shorter life than a 17 than be happy with that model (or get a conversion barrel like me…best of both worlds). We really are bogarting this thread, arent we.
I’d be more likely to believe a 40 caliber pistol telling me that Yeager sucks than vice versa.
How dare you insult the tactical Mr. Clean!
And thus the Nickname was born…
I own handguns in: 5.7-mm, .380, .38-SPL, .357-Mag, 9-mm, .40 S&W, and .45-ACP.
I have chosen .40 S&W for EDC. I also prefer chocolate ice cream. All other flavors, therefore suck! 😉
I look forward to shooting my guns to the point of failure. That will give me an excuse to buy more guns! I call that a “good problem to have!”
HEY smwlce! 😀
You’ve been commenting all over this thread saying how 9mm and .45 have exactly the same effect and there is no functional difference between them. You zealously held to this assertion in the face of all arguments, and when asked you cited this pdf as your supporting data:
http://www.mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
I’m about to ruin your day, because I paid you the un-earned complement of actually *reading* what you cited as your support that .45 has no greater effect than 9mm. Guess what your “proof” says? And I quote from page 10 in the Conclusions section:…
“Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase
bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size
of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital
organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will
penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.”
So your “supporting evidence” says exactly what the people you have been arguing against have been trying to tell you! 😉 Indeed, you don’t even need to have read that text, all you needed to do is look at the pictures of the gel blocks on page 13 to see it. If you did go ahead and read it carefully though, you would have seen that it also takes data directly from Dr Fackler, whom Dyspeptic Gunsmith was trying to point you in the direction of.
That’s some embarrassingly good comedy there!
“Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase
bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size
of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital
organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will
penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.”
“So your “supporting evidence” says exactly what the people you have been arguing against have been trying to tell you! Indeed, you don’t even need to have read that text, all you needed to do is look at the pictures of the gel blocks on page 13 to see it. If you did go ahead and read it carefully though, you would have seen that it also takes data directly from Dr Fackler, whom Dyspeptic Gunsmith was trying to point ”
There is nothing in that data that contradicts what ive been trying to say either. Im not sure how this “revelation” has panned out poorly for my point: that the difference between defense cartridges, especially 9mm and 45, is negligible.
Once you factor in recoil, size of weapon, and smaller magazine, those negligible improvements to a “bigger bullet” are nullified. Its called a zero sum game.
You also fail to address the fact that “the edge goes to the bigger bullet” means that pistols are poor compared to long guns (especially if you follow any Paul Gomez teachings). What is that called? willful omission? It does nothing to prove that the 45 is decisively better than a 9mm (or 40 or 357 sig etc). Perhaps you need to look at the gelatin blocks a little bit closer.
“That’s some embarrassingly good comedy there!”
Whats embarrassingly good comedy is your demonstration of a line of strawmen, non sequiturs, and concluding it by a demonstration of Danth’s Law (declaring oneself victor either directly or indirectly). Seeing a victory where there is none is a classic behavior trait of a zealot.
So what you’re saying is: math is hard.
Try 3.14159 * (expansion radius)^2 😀
shall i dignify that with a response? perhaps not. I cannot help but feel like im wasting my time here.
You are not a fan of stretch (temporary) cavities with regards to incapacitation from a pressure wave to a nerve center (sharp hit to body like a blow from a baton), are you.
Actually I am. That is why my Glock 19 is fed with +P and +P+. Typically Winchester Ranger +P+ 127 grain.
Getting hit with a bullet is more like getting hit with a baseball for a very rough comparison. Baton? not quite.
A little over 400 ftlbs…….now that is a stretch (to attain a decent stretch cavity, that is). You know that I can use bullets that have less energy than the one you mentioned with the added sectional diameter to boot. I thought you were conserned with recoil? If you want a gun that ‘kicks’ you should try my Kahr P40, now thats a gun I have to make sure not to load hot (though, my keltec pf9 aint exactly a pussycat at 14 oz). I have a 9mm conversion barrel for my G22 so can just play with that, or change the extractor and turned the gun into a ‘commited’ self defense G17….that is if you can talk me into the virtues of the 9mm (and it does have many).
Low 400s is on the low end of the stretch incapacitation consept where 500 to 700 is the better range. My G22 has a 9mm conversion barrel so you may just talk me into the virtues of the 9 (and there are many). Its nice to know that you understand the stretch concept as so many only look at the Fackler wound and penetration idea (which is critical and primary before you go for stretch).
Many years ago my first non-22lr handgun was a .40 S&W and will likely continue to purchase them as long as ammo is readily available. I usually buy a conversion bbl .40 S&W->9mm and like being able to choose which caliber with just a bbl + mag change. Keeps the price down on buying extra handguns (plus accessories). I find myself able to shoot just as quickly and accurately with .40 S&W and 9mm, but I also recognize that may not be the case for everyone else. I have yet to put tens of thousands of rounds through any of my handguns and if I need to buy a new recoil spring years from now, no big deal. One of the interesting side effects of owning .40 S&W handguns was being able to purchase ammo through 08 and 09…when .380 ACP, 9mm, and .45 ACP were impossible to find at Walmart and a lot of other places. The majority of times I could find .40 S&W while other calibers were missing from the store shelves.
Unlike Mr. Yaeger, I try not to tell other people what caliber is best for them and let them come to their own conclusions and choose what’s best for them.
I agree with Yeager.
“I have chosen .40 S&W for EDC. I also prefer chocolate ice cream. All other flavors, therefore suck! ;)”
My feelings exactly. +1000. On the caliber and the chocolate ice cream. Specially if it has nuts.
It doesn’t matter how much you argue with some people, they refuse to dispense with their preconceived notions.
Google “Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue”. To sum it up, he says overwhelmingly if it’s a one-shot kill, it was a .40 or .45.
That’s why I go with .40. Plus a few other reasons I’m sure you don’t care enough about.
You, do what you like. You’re going to anyway.
Its been proven many times over on here, as well as other places, that most criminals will turn tail and run when fired upon. Regardless of that, even a .22lr kills. We’ve seen that proven here numerous times as well. So, carry whatever makes you feel safe. Carrying anything is much better than not carrying.
Not to mention the incapacitating stretch (temporary) cavity that creates a pressure wave to hit a nerve center.
“40’s” Suck”. Yep, especially when you’re looking down the barrel of one and it goes bang!
This is also true for any caliber. So:
Rule #1: Getting shot with ANY bullet SUCKS, and this action can well result in your demise.
Therefore, calibers are irrelevant as far as lethality. So, called “stopping power” (I hate that term), as in cease and desist, is another matter altogether. My own research tells me CNS disruption, even if temporary, is the key. Bleeding to death can take days. High velocity smaller rounds do this CNS thing very well. I love my .45s but the .357 sig is the auto round as far as this high velocity is concerned when loaded to 1500 FPS.
As for LEOs, my local PD went from wheelguns, to Glocks in 9mm, to Glocks in .40S&W, and as of this year they are wearing Glock 21SFs in OOps .45 ACP. And all of the ones I have talked to LOVE them over all their previous sidearms.
J.
James Yeager has zero credibility with me. He is unprofessional and immature, therefore I cannot take anything he says seriously.
.40 does not suck as long as you can get your shots on target and stop the threat. Same as any other caliber. Again, we see Yeager trying to say that his preferences are best. Same as the “1911s Suck.”
-Mike
I have fired many firearms in my lifetime, civilian, and military. I practice more than most officers. But most of the comments are opinion with no care for the important things like is he not a threat anymore ?? When the threat is stopped, only then will you be alive, and safe. First and foremost is comfort in the hand, this will aid in placement for a kill shot. No such thing as 50/50 chance in the heart or brain. Round is only important if you can be comfortable when you fire. If you miss a 50cal still will not work. I have seen officer highly trained send 15 rounds down range only two hit twice. And I state the fact again if you are not comfortable you will not get a second chance. Your first two rounds must hit in kill spots. So weather its a 9/10/40/45/357/44/50 his 22 place in you heart will negate every argument here. Again comfort to stand your ground or find cover, and get the rounds off to stop the threat. Cover fire can still be placed accurately when in retreat. A man with a 100rd drum full auto will stop dead if he is hit in the head or heart with a well placed shot. The whole its so big it will blow your arm off, is fiction. I will state it can destroy an arm, but that is not what will stop a threat. I can say from my years , stop, firm pull, and control, shoot(chest), drop to a knee, shoot(chest), shoot (head), two to the chest one in the head will stop most attackers in there tracts. No IQ, I think I’m sexy tactical ware or huge par of man parts will save your ass. Training and time on a range is the only sure way to survive. I’m sure it will be brought up, what about body armor like those guys in LA. If this kind of armor is in play YOU are in the wrong place, RUN like crazy. Last f you can’t or have any doubt retreat. I carry a 9mm+P high expansion hollow tips. I don’t put faith in gel: however the pig I have killed with a well place 9mm, was incapacitated, and dropped within seconds.SDW
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