Before we get into it, a quick disclaimer. The end of the article at whas11.com the writer reveals that “Police say [John Beaty White] is ex-military and believe PTSD may have played a factor.” If so, calling him an irresponsible gun owner may seem a bit harsh. But not entirely inappropriate. Anyway . . .
Just before 1 a.m. Tuesday, the Uber driver brought a customer to the Lakewood on the Trail Apartments near White Rock Lake.
Dallas police said before getting out of the car, the customer struck up a conversation with the driver about guns. At one point, the customer pulled out a gun he was carrying to show it to the driver and they passed it back and forth while talking.
During this time, a man walking around the apartment complex saw the two with the gun and thought they were planning a robbery or attack. That man then pulled out a gun of his own and fired nearly 15 shots at the car, according to police.
One bullet hit the 24-year-old driver in the chest, and police said the shooter began performing CPR once he realized the mistake. The driver was taken to a hospital and his current condition is unknown, although police said he was alert and talking at the time he was loaded into the ambulance. The customer was not hurt.
File this one under “know your target and . . . really know your target.” In fact, it’s best not to shoot someone unless you know the whole story. Undercover cops exist and it can be very hard to tell the players without a scorecard.
Target ID responsibility. That’s our policy.
Unless you see the “movie” from the beginning, you really don’t know for sure what’s going on.
Military or not, that was definitely a pretty ignorant action without knowing the circumstances of what was going on. If the shooter in fact is suffering from PTSD, it could be an issue of him having some type of flashback, but if he has PTSD to that extreme, he should be in in-patient therapy with the VA or a qualified civilian institution. I’ve known a few people who were diagnosed with PTSD, but they mostly suffered with low level depression, sleep disruption, and the like. It would have to be a pretty serious case to react the way he did to that particular situation.
You don’t need to serve a combat tour to have that kind of reaction, but if you’ve seen similar situations before and know how quickly the odds can stack against you it can happen a lot easier.
+
Harder to NOT kill.
Oh boy. Let’s repeat it one more time class: you are NOT justified to use deadly force unless there is a credible, IMMINENT threat of grievous bodily harm or death.
Even if the two men in the car were planning to go into some building and rob it, THEY WERE NOT ACTUALLY IN THE PROCESS OF THREATENING ANYONE and therefore they did NOT present an IMMINENT threat of grievous bodily harm or death.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and the above is not legal council. Consult your own attorney if you have any questions about when deadly force is legally justified.
Exactly.
Well said.
All a steamy pile. Is preemption entirely out the window? Wherein is the boundary drwn where the bad guys get to toe the median line, while the cooled-heads suffer from trying to mentally masticate a properly defined “proper use of deadly force”. F ALL DAT. It’s safer to have everyone assume you’ll down them for scratchin their sack with a frown on their face. Everything else is bs designed to make you lose (or suffer tangibly and intangibly, in the death throes of adequate decision making).
Next time I see an open carrier, I’ll dump 18 rounds in his dumb ass, then. Thanks for the permission!
Uh – you don’t open carry anymore, do you?
Thanks for abdicating a position of strength, the high defensible ground, and life and death decisions to attorneys post-mortem.
I don’t expect you to obtain my permission, I won’t ask for yours.
Joe R.,
The problem with evil humans that attack us: they rarely extend the courtesy of announcing their crime and allowing us time to process the event and prepare our response. The natural result: we will almost universally be at a significant disadvantage and attackers will often prevail no matter how much training and equipment we have. Either way, human life is sacred and I will not encourage people to use deadly force on a hunch. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. That is life.
Speaking to your criticism that our justice system purposely burdens us to make perfect self-defense decisions: courts which operate righteously instruct jurors that they cannot base their verdict on their impression with the luxury of hours of examination. Rather, courts are supposed to instruct juries to base their verdict on their impression of the event if they had been in the defendant’s shoes and had one or two seconds to respond. That seems like an incredibly reasonable standard to me.
All crime I based upon response time.
Better to have everyone walking around watching their ass, then starring in a CNN boo-hoo story.
This is a good companion piece to the domestic violence article. Once again what someone sees and thinks is happening may not be what is actually happening. Of you see something that looks like an imminent threat of violence call 911 and be prepared to be a good witness and get out of the way.
You walk out of a mall and see a guy with a choke hold on a woman, both bloody, and she is yelling “help, he’s trying to kill me”.
So you shoot him.
You didn’t see the part where she had been stabbing him and he finally got the knife away from her and was using a hold to control her.
Don’t do a critique on a movie you come halfway in on.
I’ve never served in the military, let along seen combat, so maybe I’m talking out of my ass here, but sometimes it seems like PTSD is the go to defense anytime a veteran commits a crime. Maybe this is correct approach, but the issue I have is that millions of people have served in the military. Randomly select a million Americans, and some of them are bound to end up criminals, PTSD or not. On top of that, as difficult as I’m sure it can be to deal with, combat is not the only source of mental and emotional trauma. If we diminish somebody’s actions because they’re a combat vet, isn’t somebody who grew up in an abusive home in a violent neighborhood deserving of the same standard if they commit a crime? Surely those circumstances can have a profound impact as well. I guess my point here is that no matter what a person has been through, no matter how terrible their circumstances, their actions are still their own. Perhaps there are cases where those circumstances are so profound that someone is not responsible(or less responsible) for their actions, but if that is the case, that logic needs to be applied to everyone, not just veterans.
The problem with this argument is that it can be used to cover all sins. For example, “My parents never taught me right from wrong,” or “I grew up in a bad neighborhood,” or “I am a member of a disadvantaged minority.” “Therefore, it’s unfair to hold me accountable for joining a gang, selling drugs, doing drive by shootings or committing robberies.”
“isn’t somebody who grew up in an abusive home in a violent neighborhood deserving of the same standard if they commit a crime?”
Did they do it so you could sleep quietly under GOD, under a beautiful Flag, in a world class country?
Anyhow. All my guys would say “Thank you for there being an America to come home to.” That’s YOUR service. All military historians and strategists of any era would tell you, “You cannot adequately put a force afield without having an equal or greater force at home, and one that can withstand a complete reversal of fronts.” And even your opinions expressed about the military, its missions, or a particular ‘war’, should essentially be considered, at least in some small way, being a combatant in it.
PTSD is not always ‘inappropriate’ latent hyper-awareness. Sometimes the lack of seeming awareness or obliviousness by others creates an extended edginess in those with “PTSD”.
Taking your gun out in public without a good reason is pretty stupid
Self, family and owned business defense are darn good reasons and since I am always, without fail, with myself, carrying to defend me is always a good reason to be armed.
As I see it/this, the supposed ‘irresponsible person’ was not under –imminent threat of bodily harm or death–; any fear he may have had was ‘bare fear’. In my opinion, when someone comes across a situation such as this, it should be filed under: get the hell out of dodge AND/OR, mind your damn business.
In addition to whatever else may, or may not, have been wrong, the gun owner in the Uber committed an offense if they were licensed:
PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun
on or about the license holder’s person under the authority of Subchapter H,
Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally displays the handgun in plain
view of another person in a public place. It is an exception to the application of
this subsection that the handgun was partially or wholly visible but was carried in
a shoulder or belt holster by the license holder.
As mentioned earlier, taking your handgun out of its holster in public without cause is, at best, not wise. In Texas, such action could lead to prosecution under Texas PC 46 or various disorderly conduct state and local statutes.
This speaks to my own personal philosophy that my gun won’t ever leave my holster unless the victim shares my last name. Yes, there are an extremely rare, few exceptions, but they would entail a bus load of defenseless children/nuns or an active shooter declaring Allah Akbar. Everyone else is on their own. Don’t ever forget, they also have the RTKBA. Their problem if they aren’t.
The guy saw someone with a gun and just opened fire
As others have said, you have to be in imminent threat to shoot
yes, as the good guy that puts you at a disadvantage
That is the price we pay to avoid just this type of situation
talk about giving the antis fuel for the fire. they are going to have a field day with this. But never acknowledge Fast and Furious.
Yep.
“Please keep firearms holstered unless the situation requires its use. In that case, judicious marksmanship is appreciated.”
Great pro 2A gun sign at a few stores.
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