The much-anticipated big brother to the Kel-Tec PMR-30 (review here) has arrived! If PMR is Pistol Magnum Rimfire, then at least on paper and in the hand, the CMR-30, or Carbine Magnum Rimfire is everything I could have hoped for in a carbine variant. Not just the same caliber but the same, 30-round magazines, same grip, trigger, safety, slide/bolt lock, and magazine release. It’s incredibly light and maneuverable just like the PMR is. The 16″ barrel . . .
is threaded 1/2×28, and the whole shebang barely meets the 26″ minimum overall length requirement. I have over 1,000 rounds of various .22 WMR here, and will be spending Thursday, Friday, and Sunday putting this thing through its paces on an IPSC stage, at the range, and out in the woods. Watch this space, as a full review is forthcoming.
Literally a poor man’s MP7.
Tell me where I can buy an MP7 for any amount of money if I’m not government or police.
A Class 3 dealer could probably get you one.
Non-transferrable. Unavailable to us mere mortals.
Hey, to each their own haha. But that’s exactly what I thought when I saw it. I want to see the sbr version of it.
Imagine this one with a shorter barrel 😉
On its own, it’s a gun I’d consider going the SBR route with, but not in combo w/ the PMR-30 pistol. .22 WMR is really designed to come up to full speed over the length of a rifle (~16″) bbl, so keeping it that long is going to have some advantage. The entire gun, thanks to how short the stock collapses, is stupid short anyway. And you’ve got the pistol that uses the same magazines for really close stuff. So instead of SBR in this case, it’ll be PMR on the hip and CMR on a sling.
Kel-Tec claims it’s accurate enough to put a good scope on and shoot it for groups at 50 or 100 yards, and I intend to test that out…
It looks good with the AAC Element 2 on the muzzle…
Ooooo, someone’s going to be having some fun. Wish I could trade you for my Corporate gig lol.
I hope the new Sub2k Gen2 isn’t too far behind!
Looking forward to the (always excellent) review.
I’m sure like most Kel-Tec hardware it will mostly exist in our imagination.
I hear what you’re saying man. I had to look at like TWO whole different stores before I found the exact version of one of the Kel-Tecs I own (the other one was for sale at pretty much every store in the area). And there’s only a mere 2,000 of them listed for sale currently (on just this one single website).
http://www.gunbroker.com/Kel-Tec-Firearms/Browse.aspx?Keywords=Kel-Tec
These guns are total vaporware. I’m convinced they don’t actually exist. Not one has ever actually been manufactured.
The ones that do make it out the door of their manufacturing facility are quickly snapped up by price gougers and put up for sale at 50% above retail value on Gunbroker.
If you can’t buy something for its “retail value”, then guess what? It’s not actually its retail value!
That was my first thought as well.
PMR30s are like the illusive chupacabra around here. You hear that a place has one, but it is never there even if you show up 10 min later. Sub2Ks in 9mm are the same way.
I saw a live RFB once.
I saw an RFB for sale in a gun store once…for $2300.
There’s this thing called the Internet. You can buy guns on it. Come on, guys, even the demanding mothers have figured that out! 😉
The fact that I want one must mean it’s already sold out.
I wish they would come out with something of similar design only in 9mm. Why does every 9mm carbine that isnt of the AR variety have to be fugly with a funky thumbhole stock?
Well, Kel-Tec’s Sub-2000 doesn’t have a thumbhole stock and is a pretty darn novel, folding design. Accepts Glock, Beretta, or other common pistol mags. Info on V2.0 HERE
I would say the sub2k, while novel, is firmly in the “fugly” camp.
Sub2K is as ugly as it needs to be, to be practical. Function over form and all that.
Masterpiece arms makes a mac10 rifle, century international makes the uzi uc9, there’s a mp5 clone (from ptr I think), tavor makes a 9mm (might fall under fugly though), of course you could just go old school and get a sterling sporter. There’s even a ttag review of the sterling http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/07/joe-grine/gun-review-century-arms-international-wise-lite-arms-sterling-sporter/
It’s a completely different animal but Chiappa now makes an M1 Carbine clone in 9mm. Definitely *not* fugly, but being Chiappa, the quality is probably very questionable. I’d love to see someone with a little better track record do the same thing.
It’s too bad that it’s also straight blowback. I really wish someone had done a proper M1 Carbine clone (i.e. complete with its gas system) in some powerful pistol cartridge.
I just ordered a Chiappa 22LR upper a couple of days ago. Bud’s has them for $139.00 with 2 28 round magazines. I’m cautiously optimistic as regards to their quality. I’ll keep y’all posted.
I have to admit that I like Rhino pistols. I’d like to shoot one. If Lindsey Graham tosses his hat in the ring, maybe Chiappa will give him one…
Thumbhole stocks are mainly the result of 922r for imported rifles because pistol grip is not sporting, nasty laws.
Its funny. Thumb-hole stocks seem to always be illegal in all the places that will let you stick your thumb in any other hole. Hows that for sporting?!
Thumbhole stocks aren’t the ones that are illegal. Thumbhole stocks are the workaround to avoid stupid “pistol grip = evil assault weapon” rules.
After the 1994 AWB went into effect the thumb hole stock was the work around. Fienstien was pissed!! The states that have enacted AWB’s since then have included them in the “banned feature” list. In the proposed Fienstien 2013 law, they were banned as well.
When I was a kid, Daisy made a CO2 repeater that had a huge “thumb hole”. I always wanted one of them.
Hmm. I can see a semi-auto carbine in .22 WMR being a decent home-defense firearm for people that are extra sensitive to recoil.
I agree with above commenters. I could count the number of PMR- 30s I’ve actually seen for sale on one hand and have several fingers left over. Those I have seen have had exhorbitantly inflated price tags.
They’ve been pretty darn available for a good year now. My FFL has had them in stock almost constantly in the last year, in multiple colors no less, and has been charging $379 or $399 or something in that range (under $400). Even on GunBroker there are PMR-30s going for under MSRP. KSGs have been sitting on the shelf also. At least one gun shop in town has had an RFB on their wall for a couple months (priced at MSRP or just under).
That said, this CMR-30 is going to be a unicorn for a while and prices on GB are definitely going to reflect that…
It is probably faster to just wait for Ruger to come out with a slightly more refined copy of this gun, like they did with the P3AT/LCP, and PF9/LC9 (and SR22/Walther 22). Ruger gets their new guns to market in sufficient numbers much more quickly, and generally makes slightly better guns. (I own firearms from both Ruger and Kel-Tec and like both)
Well if I didn’t specifically want the CMR because it takes the same, 30-round mags as my PMR, I’d likely be looking at a CZ 512 Tactical as my semi-auto .22 WMR carbine of choice…
Dang! I didn’t even know about the CZ 512. That looks like a fun gun! I’d bet the CZ quality exceeds that of KT by a fair margin. I do see the value with the mag compatibility with your PMR-30 though (and mag capacity if the CZ only has 10 rounders).
At least in the case of P3AT and LCP, the first version of the latter was actually inferior on most counts other than looks, so it’s not always that simple.
Does anybody actually shoot IPSC in the states or do people typically just mean USPSA?
I keep getting IDPA and IPSC mixed up. Had to look at my card to see which one it was (it was IDPA.) In other news, $1,300 on gunbroker. So nope for me, that is insane for what would be a rarely shot (does anyone even sell bulk 22mag?) truck gun to replace my 10/22 TD.
Seems like 9mm AR’s are selling like crazy, surprised there isn’t a small 9mm carbine like this for around $800.
CZ’s trying to fill that hole, but got tripped up on 922R. They’re supposed to release an SBR kit for the EVO eventually, but that comes with paperwork. Hopefully they’ll see the desire for a title I firearm and extend the barrel once they have 922R out of the way.
My guess is once the 922(r) compliance kit is ready they will announce a 16″ bbl carbine version very shortly thereafter. I’m sure they’re already working on that. If I were CZ-USA, I’d be trying really hard to get carbine versions into distributor hands by early November so they’re in stock for Black Friday and then XMas shopping, etc. And since the 922(r) compliance kit is slated for “late summer” the timing could work just fine.
In this case, it isn’t really either. Just the weekly “fun shoot” at my preferred indoor range in this area. It’s usually styled like an IPSC stage. I ran the CMR-30 through it on Friday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttI04E1P-lE
Fellow Virginians-
The gun show is coming to Richmond next weekend, I went last month and they had a couple PMR 30s at various tables that weren’t gouged too high. Unfortunately I can’t remember the exact price but I do recall I would have bought one on the spot if I hadn’t blown my budget already
i dont get it. if a pistol round is not enough, why go to a bigger pistol of the same caliber? pistols are only to last you until you to get to your rifle.
Preston, are you Operating again?
Why go to a larger “pistol” round? As I stated above some people are really sensitive to recoil. In this case .22 WMR will produce pretty much zero recoil and yet launch a 40 grain lead bullet out of the 16 in barrel at something like 1,800 fps. While one round probably won’t drop a drug addled attacker at close range, it will work pretty well on most other attackers. And getting back to the drug addled attacker at close, that is why you have a 30 round magazine.
CCI Mini Mag 40 grn can hit 1,990 fps out of a 16″ bbl. I intend to chronograph some stuff through the CMR though just to verify and see what’s up. Including Speer Gold Dot. Maybe a few through the PMR and a few through the CMR for comparo.
Oh, nice!
I assumed (incorrectly apparently) that 1,900+ fps velocities were out of a 20 in barrel.
I wonder how those simple lead bullets perform hitting an attacker at 1,900 fps? Do they mushroom at all? Do they fragment?
I was just going by ballisticsbytheinch…. where Maxi Mag actually slowed down a touch in longer barrels. I’ll know this afternoon what it really does in the CMR…
” if a pistol round is not enough”…..
Exactly what are the qualifications for “enough” in the fun category?
Why does every firearm NEED to have a purpose other than just fun for some people?
I earned the money, I want one….. That’s plenty “enough” for me.
Why does every gun have to be viewed through the lens of wannabe “operators” playing army games? I have plenty of guns that will very, very likely never be pressed into self-defense or hunting service, and several pistols that I certainly won’t be using to “get to a rifle”. They’re fun to shoot, or have some historical or sentimental value, and that’s all I expect from them. I couldn’t care any less how much “stopping power” they have, as long as they’ll knock down a tin can.
As for pistol caliber carbines, they’re fun, they use inexpensive ammo that can also be shared with handguns, and they tend to produce significantly better performance from the same ammunition than you can get out of a short pistol barrel. Those are compelling features to lots of people.
Keltec has some great designs that need some final finishing touches to reach perfection. That said, they could use a factory lunch-and-learn on build quality and the use of quality materials (more steel – less plastic).
For going above and beyond the limits of low build quality/cost I have awarded Keltec the appropriate term. The “nade” term. LIke glock and even more so – Keltek’s are now to me known as “KELTEKNADES”
And more:
“…the use of quality materials (more steel – less plastic)…”
On the CMR, I’m not sure I’ve seen so much aluminum and steel on a Kel-Tec haha. The “lower” (grip frame) is polymer like the PMR but basically everything else you see is aluminum except for the steel barrel (and polymer Magpul sights, polymer charging handles on the steel charging rods, rubber butt pad).
What the operation? Blowback?
Yeah.
I’m digging this. Looking forward to the review.
If it’s accurate, it would be fun on a spring sage rat hunt.
Spring sage rat hunts are so much fun. One of these days I’ll have to step up from my .22 to a .22 mag or a .17. Until then, I’ll just have to keep blasting those cute little suckers with my Marlin.
If its as “easy” to find in stores or online as the PMR-30, along with the same often inflated price, I’ll pass.
Its a shame as they both look like fun guns in a fun caliber.
All this talk of PMR-30s being hard to find confuses me a bit. They’re all over the place now. Dozens and dozens always on GunBroker at any given time starting under MSRP or “buy it now” for within $20 of MSRP. The two FFLs I frequent in my area (try Best Buy Surplus at 509.535.5375) have them in stock under MSRP and have almost all of the time for the last year. Even CDNN has had them in stock very regularly for many months! They’re in stock there right now (800-588-9500).
I feel like the “these things don’t exist” comments are exclusively from folks who aren’t actually shopping for one? Cuz they’re out there. In decent abundance, really.
gimmegimmegimmeGIMMEGIMME!
Nope just checked everywhere, can’t find one here.
Saw ONE selling on Gunbroker for over $1500-no thanks. I did see dozens of sub2000’s selling on GB. Kel-tec needs a COMPETENT partner…
And NOW I see 4 online…1 selling for 1375 with a day left. Another at 1300with reserve not met. And 2 at 1400 or more.
Coincidentally, I just got an email special from CDNN: “Buy any Kel-Tec below at our lowest pricing and buy a PMR at our special low price!”
So I have to buy a PF9, P3AT, PLR-22, P11, or P3ATw/CT to get what is probably MSRP on a PMR-30….
My only first impression gripe is that it is rimfire. I almost would like to see a 5.7 version.
Probably too risky for Kel Tec. The 5.7 is a fickle little cartridge and FN has had a strangle hold on any data relating to it, so manufacturers seeking to build guns in that caliber are kinda in the dark, which is why almost no one other than FN is chambering in that caliber. Add to that, the high pressure in such a little cartridge and the fact that ammo is only available from approved FN manufacturers, and you have a recipe for a weapon with little market but high development risks.
Yeah the ammo cost alone would pretty much price it out of my “fun gun” range. Although it has been scare, it’s coming back around and .22 WMR has historically been priced like really cheap 9mm in the ~17 cents per round range.
.22 WMR ain’t as reliable as centerfire but it’s a whole heck of a lot more reliable in my experience than .22 LR. I’ve had one or two dud rounds in WMR compared to many, many dozens of primerless .22 LR rounds over the years. No, I haven’t shot as much WMR but on a percentage basis the duds are practically non-existent compared to LR.
Ive wanted a 22 mag something, since I 1st saw the Kel Tec pistol.
I just wont pay the inflated prices being asked for them.
I anticipate it will be a jammomatic, spectacular crapular. But I always hold out a little hope they will produce a quality gun one day.
Oh great…..another gun made of Unobtainium…….getting your hands on a PMR is almost as difficult as getting a date with Kate Upton. Now they come out with another one that nobody will be able to get.
There are 109 PMR-30s on GunBroker at this very moment. I can’t find how to buy a date with Upton anywhere 😉 …I reject your assertion that they are unobtainable…
I’ve owned the pmr 30 for a couple years , paid $599.00 , love shooting it , no issues with ftf as long as you don’t limp wrist , about 200 rounds , likes heavier grain ammo , any kind . Easy to clean , dead on accurate and deadly for anything , with 30 rounds , within 30 yards and 3 inch accuracy . It is my personal carry gun most of the time , light weight to wear in a dead eye luke holster with no belt , appendix style , never know it’s there . I just ordered a cmr 30 for $1,500.00 and I think that is a fair price for the current market and people like myself are wiling to pay .I would like to pay less of coarse but I said that about the pmr and I now would have regretted not having it , the price hasn’t gone down much and I sure have enjoyed it .
one more thing , about 22 wmr ammo . I have one shot dropped 8 point bucks with this round , put turkeys to sleep and sent multiple coyotes to their demise with a well placed 40 grainer and shot quarter sized holes through 3/8 inch alum targets at 30 yards . I like to say , it’s not always the size of the hole you make but where the hole or holes , in regards to the pmr , are placed . If you run towards me I’ll aim high , if you walk aggressive towards me I’ll blow out both your knees and you may have an opportunity to reflect back on your stupidity and I won’t miss any sleep , just sayin .
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