I’m not all that old. But I never imagined I’d live to see so many protests, petitions and petulant politicians demanding the removal of Americans’ constitutional rights. Democrats couldn’t manage destroy citizens’ rights and freedoms with poorly written legislation — laws that would have no effect on crime — so they throw a hissy fit? Who saw that one coming?
The politicians parking themselves on the floor of the House of Representatives felt comfortable knowing that the general public supports banning new gun purchases for Americans on the Terrorist Watch List. A Huffington Post sponsored yougov.com poll reveals that “86% would back such a law, with only 7% opposed. Support crosses traditional partisan boundaries, with 87% of Democrats and 87% of Republicans in favor of the change.” Not to menti0n the NRA and Donald Trump.
Eighty-six percent of Americans may support a gun ban for suspected terrorist, but giving the government the power to list anyone they want as a potential terrorist is an extraordinarily bad idea. I can’t be the only one who feels that Uncle Sam should obtain evidence and charge a person before removing their rights. Otherwise, what’s to stop the government from declaring TTAG a terrorist organization and adding all of our names to that list? It’s not that hard to figure out that this is one of the worst ideas in the history of bad ideas.
We live in a constitutional republic. As RF points out, our right to keep and bear arms is not subject to a democratic vote. That’s why we have a Constitution: to protect individuals from both government tyranny and mob rule. Freedom means you have rights, and you keep them until you are charged and found guilty of a crime. This isn’t Minority Report.
By the same token, freedom should never be negotiable. It shouldn’t matter how many crybabies sit-in in the House of Representatives. It shouldn’t matter how many vote to strip your rights away. It shouldn’t matter how many sign a petition to have your guns confiscated. Natural rights exist.
The only good thing that came from this sit-in: the politicians involved made themselves look mentally unstable. The terrible thing that it revealed: Americans are unaware of the stakes involved in the battle to defend our gun rights. Let’s hope that our votes mean they don’t have to learn the hard way.
But secret blacklists are effective workarounds for antidiscrimination laws…
“…giving the government the power to list anyone they want as a potential terrorist is an extraordinarily bad idea. I can’t be the only one who feels that Uncle Sam should obtain evidence and charge a person before removing their rights. Otherwise, what’s to stop the government from declaring TTAG a terrorist organization and adding all of our names to that list?”
This forces me to respond:
“If you concede that the very government the Second Amendment was intended to protect us from has the authority to create, maintain and enforce a list of persons who, in the opinion of that same government, may not exercise their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms, how will you keep your name off of that list?” – Cliff H
This has been my point all along Cliff and another way of putting it would be this .
If the British had the technology in 1770 , who do you think would have been on their list ?
Even without technology I’m pretty sure they had a list, and were ruthless about enforcing it.
Just gonna leave this here, a lot of folks I talk to arent familiar with the series. I really enjoy it.
NRA Life of Duty : The List (the part at the round table of this episode is what Im referring to specifically @ 2:55ish)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP46tdiq7ok
No fly, no buy is chump change. You ought to try living in CA where almost all civil rights are suspended. States rights, I guess.
“Chump change” is how you Kali chumps got your changes, you better believe it. This is a bigger deal than UBCs or AWBs, in any case. Bigger than drop tests, or microstamping, or even “mental health holds” which approach this horrible proposal. It’s really up there with losing the right to “shall issue,” nationally (though Kalis may no longer understand the importance of that, either)
Talk about gun owners not realizing the stakes.
SB277 finished CA off as a place any Liberty respecting person would live in.
Some gun guys just carry illegally in California. They figure, screw the law. I guess it helps if they were former prison guards and know how to carry.
Don’t you have anything better to do? Shouldn’t you be looking for a job instead? Cali state prisons might be hiring.
If California passes its “Gunpocolypse” bills you bet your sweet a** there will be job openings, assuming they actually enforce the law:
Wanted: Union construction crews to build new state-of-the-art prisons.
Wanted: Prison guards, training provided.
We are an equal opportunity employer, Conservatives need not apply.
” Otherwise, what’s to stop the government from declaring TTAG a terrorist organization and adding all of our names to that list?”
They would love to do just that.
This is the same group who want to make anthropogenic climate change dissent a *criminal* act.
Look what Micheal Mann recently said on the subject of collecting scientific data:
“Michael Mann, scientist: Data ‘increasingly unnecessary’ because ‘we can see climate change’”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/27/michael-mann-climate-scientist-data-increasingly-u/
Of coarse we can see climate change . What we still can’t see Michael , is man changing it .
When I look up and see that big orange ball of fire in the sky , I think , it may be that thing . Maybe ?
Has Man forgotten that once upon a time the earth was believed flat and the Ether was a thing?
Today’s truth may not be the same as tomorrows and data is what separates Science from Religion.
Unless science is your religion and you manipulate the data to tell the story you want to be true. See how that works?
And this is exactly why we don’t trust the conclusion that anthropogenic global warming is a “we have to do something…anything!” level disaster. No one should. Politics drive this bus, not science.
The global average temperature is indisputably rising. That’s a fact. But how and why…that’s the problem.
There’s a strong chance that it might not be anthropogenic at all, but temporary; or not so temporary and driven by other influences; or anthropogenic *and* temporary. Bottom line, nobody really understands the whole system, as shown by the fact that every warming model ever made has failed to accurately predict the system’s actual behavior.
Global climate science is still at the “interesting hypothesis” stage, but it’s being treated as God’s own truth by people with vested interest in the outcome.
If skepticism is a sin, you’re dealing with religion, not science.
Such ideas served the USSR and Germany very well… and kept the gulags filled.
I have no problem with people being denied firearms IF they are actually criminals. No secret lists. No secret warrants. No secret courts.
Seems the left which claims to be for freedom, and raises hell at the thought of Japanese Americans being moved to camps during WW2 where they were provided with food, medical, etc, have no problem taking rights from people who have not been convicted of anything.
“I have no problem with people being denied firearms IF they are actually criminals.”
Yes, but who decides what level of criminality qualifies for the denial of a basic, Constitutionally protected right? Even now they are attempting to make misdemeanor domestic violence qualify. Even if it was a “reckless act” and not intentional DV. Once you have conceded that they have the authority, where will they stop, and who will stop them?
Dont let the antis define the narrative
Criminal = lock up, not gun confiscation and letting loose
The only question for me is when do the ropes get stretched? Nothing less will stop the tyranny.
The issue was more about due process and strict criteria for list inclusion:
ie.
There must be direct ties and ample evidence of criminal / terrorist activity along with clear intent, opportunity, and capability to commit said crime or terror act (not just circumstantial evidence).
Basically the law and police should already have enough evidence to arrest you for a crime and being put on the list would just be a formality and/or safety precaution after the evidence is deemed sufficient and the arrest is being affected.
Of course, the fear and distrust originate from the fact this list and criteria (which they haven’t clarified) are brought to you from the brilliant minds behind 10 mag capacity, gun free zones, and 3hr police response.
So the track record isn’t there for logic, reasoning, checks, or balances.
Neat idea that could work IF we didn’t have to rely on the current representatives and powers that be that sadly don’t have public safety in mind. They are more interested in maintaining their political positions and pay checks than real world solutions.
The potential for abuse is too high and thus our rights should never be in govt control because of human nature.
—-Basically the law and police should already have enough evidence to arrest you for a crime and being put on the list would just be a formality and/or safety precaution after the evidence is deemed sufficient and the arrest is being affected.—-
Not to mention irrelevant – once you’re under indictment for a felony, You can’t purchase a firearm.
Exactly. The only use that list should serve (in a perfect world) would be to prevent someone who is going to be arrested and charged for a crime that is at least equal to a felony from acquiring a firearm prior to their arrest.
Granted, on the flip side, this wouldn’t be that effective as it could also be used as a red flag to know you’re about to be arrested.
All this assuming due process was followed. But this criteria is hardly useful and the normal process by which a warrant is issued should suffice. Only after you are convicted for a felony should you lose a right.
This does not pass Constitutional muster on several levels. You cannot deny someone their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms just because you (the government) intend to arrest them “pretty soon”. Just for starters, ANYONE who might oppose a government tyranny would be automatically a criminal awaiting arrest in the eyes of that government. That in itself would entirely defeat the main intent of the Second Amendment.
At one time slavery, Jim Crow and lynching were popular too…
And for the most part supported by Supreme Court rulings. Just sayin’.
And ALL supported by the Democrat Party.
Just like the internment of Japanese-Americans in 1942.
To most Americans, being on a terrorist watch list is the same thing as being a terrorist. Ergo, most Americans are stupid because they can’t understand that the next name on the list could be theirs.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I’ve got a little list — I’ve got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!
— Gilbert and Sullivan, The Mikado
No! No! and more No! Followed by [expletive deleted] No!
This will be run by the same government that brought you Fast ‘n’ Furious, Benghazi, and Iran Contra. The Democrats my be whining the loudest now, but it doesn’t matter what party is in charge. Legislation authorizing the stripping of rights based on a name on an unaccountable secret list has epic fail written all over it. It’s in direct conflict with Article I section 9 which specifically prohibits Bills of Attainder: laws directed against a specific named person or group of persons, making them automatically guilty of serious crimes by virtue only of membership in that group.
That’s why Joe Manchin was nattering on last week about how, “…due process is what’s killing us right now.” It’s almost like there’s no adult in the room.
There are adults, but no one is listening to them.
This will be run by the same government that brought you Fast ‘n’ Furious, Benghazi, and Iran Contra.
Even worse, it will be run by the same government that brought us the Veterans Administration.
I’m thinking if the ” no fly no buy” thing happens, then the last census will be blended into the list, then let the games begin.
“I can’t be the only one who feels that Uncle Sam should obtain evidence and charge a person before removing their rights.”
You’re not.
Oh, shit, there’s only two of us.
No, I think there’s millions of us and we’re all making noise and calling and sending emails and letters and joining the NRA …. And our [expletive deleted] legislators don’t give a [expletive deleted] what we think. They want their [another deleted expletive] list! How else can the put us all on it?
If any version of no-fly / no-buy becomes law, the terrorists have won.
How long before the list effects extend to confiscation? A month, if not immediately. “No fly, no own.” Cracking this window will have gun orgs shut down or irrelevent from fear of retribution within five years. This law IS the blanket confiscation we’ve been afraid of all along, the only thing left is the choosing of victims; terrorists, radicals, fascists, nationalists, patriots, activists, advocates, journalists, opposition parties, and finally entire demographic groups. Each step accelerating in scope & barbarity
Welcome to the Event Horizon.
I don’t think our votes are going to make much of a difference. I have little confidence that Trump will follow though on his words when the going gets tough. He’s already shown signs of caving, indicating that he doesn’t understand what’s really at stake, or doesn’t really care to begin with. The next four years are going to be a challenge for liberty minded people regardless of who gets in.
I don’t like Trump. I don’t know if I can trust him. If he’s elected our concept of freedom and liberty will still face an uphill battle. If Hillary is elected, then all hope is lost. Its a choice between taking the road where you know the bridge is out and you’re going to die, or trying a different uncertain route.
I will chose uncertainty over assured death any day.
What about a third option (no not third party)? Covention hasn’t happened yet, there is still time if we can recognize Trump for what he is (a Democrat, installed by Democrats, and elected by ten million Democrats who switched parties this primary), and that we don’t owe him a damn anything.
But what if the Republicans replacing Trump incites the Democrats to replace Clinton?
The way I think most people look at it is that they weren’t going to buy a gun anyway so the gov is removing a right they have no interest in. Now if that secret list barred you from obtaining a loan, owning a car, owning a business, having children, etc, etc…, suddenly people would internalize it and protest the hell out of it.
Last year, my son took out a loan at a car dealership. The lady explained in idle chit chat while doing all of the paperwork that they submit the name to be checked against various watch lists (DEA, DHS, etc). She was dead serious and turned the monitor so we could see as the electronic forms were being transmitted. I told her that the dealership was begging to get sued and she told me that’s the way it’s done in the industry now. I guess some private firms are already utilizing various methods to check watch lists before making loans.
Oh crap like this has happened before-Vietnam,WW2,WW1,Civil War, city of Chicago,war on drugs, so-called war on terror. And there’s at least 3 Steve…
Hawaii is ahead of the curve here…
The NRA specifically and publicly calls for due process protections.
“We are happy to meet with Donald Trump. The NRA’s position on this issue has not changed. The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist. At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed. That has been the position of Sen. John Cornyn (R.-Tex.) and a majority of the U.S. Senate. Sadly, President Obama and his allies would prefer to play politics with this issue.”
What we need to do is find some rural department that can add all these jokers to the list, on suspicion that they are out to undermine the Republic or something.
So funny when they can’t fly home any more. 🙂
And when they start complaining (as surely they will) people will start to get the idea that ANYBODY could end up on those lists.
It doesn’t amaze me that the “public” is so enamored with this “no guns for people on the terrorist watch list” issue. What does amaze me is that any of us – even the pro-list folks – can be on that terrorist watch list. No one knows who’s on it. Even an anti-gun zealot’s name could be on a list that apparently no one has ever seen. Your rights end with no recourse? This is not the America I knew.
Just Because Banning Guns for Americans on the Secret Terrorist Watch List is Popular Doesn’t Make it Right
So how many of the Muzrats having a sudden case of Jihad and emitting the Jihadi mating call has ever been on any sort of watch list when shooting up this country?
No fly and no buy without judicial review and a Federal Courst stating that electronic files are not protected from search and seizure has endless possibilites.
Hey, get all the gun rights and Tea Party members files and instant Fascist ectasy begins.
Today’s Democrat is not your grandfather’s or even your father’s Democrat.
Today’s Democrats do not believe in individual liberty. Period.
Everyone still isn’t seeing the bigger, more serious picture.
If terrorism gets a strong foothold in the US, gun control will be the last thing to be worrying about.
Good luck trying to ban/legislate bomb vests and car bombs.
Cummings went from demanding civil rights denied to denying civil rights endowed.
What a shame
>> our right to keep and bear arms is not subject to a democratic vote
Strictly speaking, the entirety of the Constitution is subject to a democratic vote. It’s not subject to a simple majority vote, sure, but the amendment process ultimately boils down to a vote of delegates that (ostensibly) represent, and are elected by, populations of the respective states.
Giving the Federal Government the “go ahead” to create “lists” of U.S.Citizens “suspected” of wrong-doing and impose penalties upon them without their knowledge is wrong, and should be refused. As the past seven years and eight months have demonstrated, if we elect an ideologue, anti-American POTUS, who fills key appointments in his/her Executive Branch with like minded ideologues willing to follow his/her directives without question, tyranny can be the result. Despite what many people want to believe the POTUS has great power to set policy, enforce law (or not) and direct regulation to suit his/her personal politics with serious consequence to the National Interest.
So, Yes! Just Because Banning Guns for Americans on the Secret Terrorist Watch List is Popular Doesn’t Make it Right!
They are unable to pass unconstitutional legislation, so they sit on the ground doing nothing. Why didn’t we allow the sit in to last to the end of the Congressional session? 🙂
Congratulations:
Without trial or due process, you too can take someone’s Constitutional Rights!
Some dipshit mispells a name, and you end up on the list?
TOUGH SHIT, MOTHERFUCKER- there is NO appeal process.
So that means: YOU ARE FUCKED!
Merry Christmas for voting them in, rather than hanging them from a light post with piano
wire- which is the only way to unfuck this mess.
Oh,
and to all of you hoping for California to separate from the U.S.?
You are all fucking cowards who won’t fight for your fellow citizens’ Rights.
Why not expand this beyond prohibiting firearms purchases?
Could we not prohibit them from voting?
Or practicing law or medicine?
Or requiring them to qwear a distinctive emblem on their left sleeve?
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