The other day, I took firearms photog Oleg Volk to task for mucho macho faux advertising. The image that preceded this one was accompanied by the text “If one 37mm hole doesn’t stop the threat, you can make 14 more.” In an astounding display of disingenuousness, Volk’s comments beneath my post suggested that his ode to the KSG and ammo was about hunting. At least partially. ‘Cause the Hexolit32 shells pictured—expanding slugs that could blow those 15 37mm holes through a “threat”—were designed for hunting wild boar. Yeah right. And lo and behold, our left-leaning amigos at mediamatters.org have taken a look at the exact same weapon over the exact same argument . . .
The juxtaposition of these two faces [of the firearms industry] was apparent at the 2011 SHOT Show where Kel-Tec salesman Chad Enos discussed his company’s new model the KSG shotgun, which holds more then twice as many shots as a police shotgun, 15, and is designed to be as compact as legally possible. As Media Matters’ David Holthouse reported not everyone at the SHOT Show was buying Enos’ marketing pitch:
“This is good for self-defense, home defense, quail hunting, you name it,” Enos said. “Those gangsters will never know what hit ’em.”
One onlooker, Cedric Steele of Knightcross Publishing, replied, “It’s a lot of gun for the price, but the problem is, you’re going to wind up selling a lot of them to gangsters.”
“No, no, no, no,” said Enos. “Quail hunters. Not gangbangers. Quail hunters.”
That line got a big laugh.
That’s the thing about prevarication. It’s funny—for all the wrong reasons. Tell the truth and be damned I say. But then I would, wouldn’t I?
I don’t know of a single hunter that would use that foolish lil gun to hunt anything. Hunters use real shotguns, not this plastic toy.
Not to mention it is too short and compact to be considered anywhere near accurate in the field. Could you imagine trying to get off a second shot on something with this rapidly? You would be wasting the shell at best.
Sight radius hardly matters with red dot sights. And accuracy isn’t the function of barrel lengths, either — it does have 18.5″.
Buuurr says:
March 5, 2011 at 1:42 PM
“Not to mention it is too short and compact to be considered anywhere near accurate in the field.”
I could kill a deer real easy with the KSG from a ground blind with a slug @ 50-75 yds. Mind your own damn business about what kind of firearm people use to kill animals.
“I could kill a deer real easy with the KSG from a ground blind with a slug @ 50-75 yds. Mind your own damn business about what kind of firearm people use to kill animals.”
lol, whoa whoa, Jamie. I meant no offence tough guy. I am speaking for me (as I always am), I don’t speak for others. This gun would suck for me as it doesn’t fit me right.
I don’t care what gun other people use. Use what you want. I am talking my opinion and what I like. I want a longer gun for hunting so I hit more consistantly. If you think you can be just as accurate with a shorter gun then a guy of equal skill with a longer gun then go ahead. More deer for me.
Ha, I had this conversation the other day with the owner of my local store. He wants to get them in stock, as he feels they will sell. He just questions who will buy them, and wasn’t sure that he was going to order them for that reason. The same reason that he was cutting back on Taurus Judges. The only people that seem to be buying them are…well, you can guess. Not the intended market.
My hardware store is still selling duct tape, plastic ties and sledge hammers. The local auto dealership still sells cars that go three times the national limit and have ear-shattering sound systems. The tire store still sells 26″ spinner wheels. The clothing store sell bandanas, in red, blue, gold and other gang colors. Wal-Mart is selling shotshells and gravity knives. Bad people can do bad things with just about anything that good people might use and enjoy. So the F what?
True that shit, Ralph! It’s the “bill of Rights” not the bill of “needs”.
Hey, it’s a mostly free country. People who wish to lose business are welcome to do so.
A lot of gangbangers passing the background check nowadays?
Yes. The vast majority have never been convicted of a felony. Remember, very few criminals ever get caught.
U.S. right now has the highest incarceration rate in the world, ever in history.
So I have to disagree.
Since when did we need to justify why we want guns, on a gun website? I like the KSG because its freakin cool. It is also a new design, something only Kel-Tec seems to be able to do nowadays (cough, cough, Ruger)
I personally like Oleg’s work, and Kel-Tec products.
I suppose the haters don’t like AR15’s and anything sold/made by Century Int’l because they could fall into the wrong hands also?
Somebody says: “Since when did we need to justify why we want guns, on a gun website? I like the KSG because its freakin cool.”
I am thinking of a word… boundaries. Is there any weapon so stupid and feckless we won’t buy it, or will we be rushing in to throw down our dollars anyway because it’s “freakin cool”? And if there is a line we won’t step over in the name of common sense and/or good taste if nothing else in the purchase of firearms, where exactly might this line be?
“Smith and Wesson announces the Lee Harvey Oswald Special. Now you can own an exact replica of the .38 snubnose revolver Lee Harvey was packing when he slipped out of the Texas Schoolbook Depository on that historic day in Dallas. With its authentic patina and crudely shortened two-inch barrel…”
Would you buy one? No? Then why would you buy one of these? Other than being “freakin cool,” of what legitimate use is it?
What’s wrong with “cool?” If somebody wants to spend their money on a shotgun because it’s cool-looking, let ’em. Some people buy cars because they’re cool. Some people get tattoos for the same reason. Tats and Camaros aren’t for me, but if people like them, let them buy them. The problem with boundaries is that it’s always someone else who sets them.
I haven’t suggested prohibiting anyone from buying or doing anything.
You do seem to assume that you are the arbiter of “legitimate use”.
TTACer just slapped you up side the face, Magoo. Prohibition is EXACTLY what you’re insinuating, you Efing fudd a$$hole!
“Is there any weapon so stupid and feckless we won’t buy it, or will we be rushing in to throw down our dollars anyway because it’s “freakin cool”? ”
Are gun owners under some moral mandate to reject things that are “freakin cool”? As long as you’re not breaking the law, you should buy any gun that brings you pleasure and if someone doesn’t like it, they should be told to go kick rocks. It’s not their money being spent.
Boundaries? Are you kidding me? There are already a huge number of federally mandated boundaries. If this falls within the legal definitions and the maker has a market they are fully right to make it and for qualified and verified (as per the law) citizens to buy it.
You don’t like the gun, DON’T buy it. But give the rest of us a break. Next you’ll be telling us what beer we can buy or what food is within the boundaries that you are comfortable with.
And I suppose you have never seen Nazi furniture made for Lugers and other WWII firearms. Yep, it’s repulsive, but it is purchased so there is a market. Still a free country.
As for Gangbangers buying them, so what? Most of the firearm industry has made handguns smaller and more powerful and more concealable, that doesn’t mean they are targeting the gangbangers. They are selling to a market that they see and they are getting the guns through an approval process that is quite draconian. No doubt if the ATF wants them off the street they’ll make some random ruling that will make them illegal.
As for hunting use, I doubt you’d see it in lots of places due to limitations on the allowed capacity of the gun.
Next you’ll be telling us only ‘gangbangers’ will buy ‘high capacity clips’, too.
I used to be a misguided young man and I ran the streets for years. So, from my exposure to the streets I can almost promise you that these types of guns will not be gangbangers choice weapon. Men who fight in the streets prefer weapons that are simple, powerful, concealable and cheap.
For those of us that prefer a shotgun for home defense, the KSG is a noticeable improvement over what is currently available, at least as far as I am concerned. The KSG is a full foot shorter and 3lbs lighter than my 870. When you are talking about the relatively narrow confines of a house, that is a meaningful advantage without the having to get a short barrel shotgun and the necessary cost and hassle of a tax stamp. Not to mention that you don’t lose any ammunition capacity.
Speaking of ammunition capacity, I am more interested in the KSG because of its bull-pup configuration and not so much because of its dual-tube feature.
Riddle me this: why do you need a more maneuverable shotgun for home defense anyway?
IMHO, use a handgun to gather friendlies and/or clear a room (if you think that’s a good idea). A long gun is easier to grab and requires two hands (opening doors, pushing kids, etc. becomes problematic).
Once you can assume a defensive position, get your shotgun. And in that case, a short barrel shotgun is no great advantage, while a longer barreled gun with a light or proper sight, is.
The KSG’s big selling point: capacity. BUT if you can’t solve your home defense problem with five – seven shells of ballistic mayhem, you’re in really deep shit and should consider a rifle with 30 rounds or so.
Your thoughts?
Robert Farago says:
March 5, 2011 at 10:27 PM
“Riddle me this: why do you need”
It’s called the “Bill of Rights” not the “bill of needs”. How many times do people have to be reminded of this?!
You called it RF, I always say that you better get the badguy with your first two shots because that fool will do everything in his power to avoid any further shots you fire. The hi caps are great if you have multiple attackers (such as ninjas), but if you can’t stop the badguy with five or six shots you’re in really deep s**t. My goal is to double tap each attacker and hopefully come out on top, and my 10 shot Kimber supermatch 2 (her lil sis the ultra carry CDP is always there as backup) is more than capable of stopping any threat.
Joe,
I respect the concept behind getting it done in two shots, but… Handguns are underpowered tools, they have great utility because of size, but they represent a compromise. Given the option, I’m looking for the long gun. For my part, I think the capacity argument (if you can’t get it done in x shots…) is a dangerous limiter that plays to the controllers side of the debate (no one needs blah-blah-blah). Use just as many rounds as needed to get the job done, no more. If you had more rounds than you needed they’ll just be there to give your gun a nice weighty feel. And you don’t need ninjas to make life difficult. 2 BG’s are more than twice as complicated, and three…
That being said, we all have to set our rational upper limit for ammo load out for everything short of the zombie apocalypse, so I’ve got no arguments against where someone else draws the line.
Thanks,
JSG
Observe also that you can’t handle a conventional shotgun one-handed. KSG is balanced right over the centrally located pistol grip, so you CAN hold and hire it from the shoulder with one hand if necessary. So it’s an improvement over conventional long guns in that regard also.
JSG, I agree 100 percent with your comments. I’m never underpowered because I don’t do a little bit of anything. I’m always full steam ahead with everything I do and I believe in having extreme firepower at all times in order to overwhelm any opposing force.
Robert,
I grant your argument and scenario…for you. My concern lies with arguing against the utility of a system simply because it doesn’t fit one’s model. We can try to imagine various scenarios and plan how they should be handled and what tools to use, and in the end what we’ll have is one plan. If somebody else has a different plan and different tools, then I can’t see a reason to object.
I realize I’m projecting a bit more into your argument than may be explicitly there. And if I can broaden my comment a bit more than nesting implies, I’ll admit that part of my concern extends from the attitude that Magoo personifies: I don’t like it and so why should you do it? (the Lee Harvey Oswald juxtaposition? Just silly.)
Unlike Paul Helmke, or Magoo, I trust the vast majority of my fellow citizens, and don’t fear the possibility that they may be armed. I don’t look at a new firearm and try to decide if it’s appropriate for my neighbors to own. And I don’t look to define what the “boundaries” for citizen’s personal decisions should be be.
The value I see in a system such as the KSG: in a violent home invasion (such as might prompt us to corral the friendlies and seek a defensive position, since the BG seems inclined to stay and fight) Load mix plus speed and violence of action. Two tubes allows me to load 7 rounds of buck shot and 7 rounds of slugs, and choose between the two as the situation dictates. Multiple rounds in a compact and maneuverable long arm allows me to react with speed in the confines of a house and deliver violent and discouraging fire as we corral the friendlies and get out. If every round can be counted on to hit the BG, 15 rounds may be excessive, but if I find myself putting four rounds in the sofa to encourage said BG to keep his head down behind it while I back out the door, maybe not so excessive.
And in the far more likely event that I never need it for violence, it’ll make a cool tool to take to the range and waste some ammo money with. And I’m okay with that, as well.
In certain counties here in the People’s Republic of NY, a pistol license is oppressively difficult to obtain.
“Riddle me this: why do you need a more maneuverable shotgun for home defense anyway?”
I don’t personally. My gun is longer then the above shown but it is more then short enough for my purposes. I don’t live in a tiger cage.
“IMHO, use a handgun to gather friendlies and/or clear a room (if you think that’s a good idea). A long gun is easier to grab and requires two hands (opening doors, pushing kids, etc. becomes problematic).”
Agreed. Use the right tool for the situation. A handgun is great for stopping people in your home. I don’t get the argument that they are underpowered. Clearly some folk have never been hunting and downed an animal with a .22. But to each their own.
“Once you can assume a defensive position, get your shotgun. And in that case, a short barrel shotgun is no great advantage, while a longer barreled gun with a light or proper sight, is.”
Again, agreed. Once everything is good and settled it doesn’t matter how long that gun is because it wasn’t used to stumble around the home. If your barrel is 18.5” all the way up to 26” and that is still considered too ‘long’ for your means then you need a better defense point or to re-think your plan.
“The KSG’s big selling point: capacity. BUT if you can’t solve your home defense problem with five – seven shells of ballistic mayhem, you’re in really deep shit and should consider a rifle with 30 rounds or so.”
Yes, it is. And it looks cool. Looking at these guys shooting magnum shells out this thing is funny. My gun is *gasp* a foot longer but I don’t rock like a leaf in the wind when I fire my magnums. But again to each their own. For me my eight shells are plenty. If not, then it is the zombie apocalypse and we are all dead anyways.
For my part, the idea that handguns are underpowered doesn’t reference what can or can’t be accomplished with a given caliber. The skillful deployment of any firearm can be devastating. However, the potential energy contained in a 12ga shell (or rifle cartridge) is significantly higher than a handgun round, it’s just physics.
That said, I’m not advocating that anyone change their plans. I just think a realistic assessment of the various tools available to us as we design our firearms mix is reasonable.
Once all is said and done, a myriad of factors will lead each of us to choose our tools. Some will use handguns, some shotguns, some rifles. Some are going to grab all three. One or two sneaky souls are going to pick a big knife. Anything that works is good enough, and I’ve got no argument with someone else’s choice.
Thanks,
JSG
I don’t require a firearm for home defense but if I did, I wouldn’t be beta testing for Kel Tec. I would select a firearm with a reputation for reliability. It’s not like anyone has ever accused Kel Tec of producing high-quality weapons — debate tends to focus on whether they meet minimum standards as functional firearms. Personally, If I had to bet my life on a firearm, I’d bet it on a good one.
Magoo says:
March 5, 2011 at 10:47 PM
“I don’t require a firearm for home defense”
Really? Not until someone breaks into your residence with their own gun. What are you gonna do? punch the bullets out of the air as they fly at you ignorant head?
I’m not at significant risk to home break-ins, and I’ve already taken far more effective measures anyway.
People in malls,colleges and public gatherings aren’t at “significant risk” from homicidal individuals either, but sh!t happens. I’d rather be prepared than test my luck.
Like I said, are you gonna punch intruders bullets out of the air, tough guy? Sounds to me like you’ve seen one to many Segal movies.
Have you used recent Keltec guns? RFB bullpup, a more complex weapon than KSG, has been 100% reliable for me over at least 2500 rounds…and that with a sound suppressor installed which tends to make guns run dirty. SU16 has been 100% reliable with or without a suppressor (I run two of them) over a higher round count. I have over a dozen ARs on hand yet go to Keltec guns for defense…ever wondered why?
If it freaks out or annoys “media matters,” I want six or seven of them.
Yes, apparently that is the marketing strategy and chief selling point. We know it isn’t quality of design or manufacture, dependability, or function. It’s a cheap plastic piece of crap with a big magazine. No, make that two magazines. So sure, go buy a half-dozen of them. That will teach those gun grabbers a lesson.
We know it isn’t quality of design or manufacture, dependability, or function.
You ‘know’ this? I take it you have handled one of the firearms they are actually going to sell in the coming few months, and not one of the prototypes at the recent firearm conventions and shows? You have put it through its paces, done a comprehensive testing of the platform’s functionality and dependability, and, I trust, will be posting a complete review of the product on this very website in the near future?
No?
Rather full of it, are you not?
If this proves to be a quality firearm, it will be the first one produced by this maker. Tip: don’t buy the first year or more’s production. It will invariably have bugs and defects and the usual turnaround for repairs will be 8 weeks or more. And even if you get the best one they ever made, it will still look, feel, and run like a low-quality firearm, because that’s what it is.
If you’ve been around the gun biz and paying attention for more than three weeks, I’m not telling you anything you don’t know.
“Tip: don’t buy the first year or more’s production.”
Totally correct, regardless of manufacturer. I won’t buy any gun until after the recalls.
Agreed, Magoo. I bought the 2009 shotgun of the year in 2011. Why? Because it is as good as it gets for that model and it has failed me never. If you read the reviews on the gun in 2009 it is decent. If you had the 2011 gun it is awesome and had a whole bunch of bells and whistles.
Ah, so you are basing this “knowledge” off assumptions, prejudices, and a complete and utter lack of actual personal experience with the firearm in question. Just wanted to clear that up.
I feel that if you work hard for your money, you have the right to buy whatever you want. This idea of “why do you need this” is crazy, live and stay in your own home and you will not have to worry about what the guy next door is spending his money on. The sad part is that you truly feel you are educating someone as to why you are right, but only showing just how wrong you are. Common sense is free…however you seem to want to pay for it.
Magoo…
It’s people like you who are dangerous – you make the assumption that your opinion should be the proper one for all other “intelligent” and “well-meaning” and “responsible” gun owners (by the way you can apply this to anything – not just gun ownership). What’s worse is that when people of your variety make any sort of point of any logic (if lopsided and flawed), many other people are apt to hop on the bandwagon in the interest of being just as “intelligent, well-meaning, and responsible”. The problem is that behavior is DANGEROUS to the FREEDOMS that are (or should be) important to ALL RESPONSIBLE AMERICANS! Frankly, the presumption that a death from criminal activity (apply that to anything else as well; safety, personal protection, air travel, etc.) is unacceptable, and whatever it takes to prevent it is necessary and acceptable is WRONG – let’s not forget all the lives that haven been lost in the interest of assuring us our freedoms to this point in history. While I believe it’s far better for a criminal to get his as the result of attempting to purport a crime on the wrong person (an individual who is prepared to assert his own right to self-protection), it is still far better to see an innocent person lose his or her life than to see us all “protected” by legislation that guarantees our safety. Naturally, there is no such legislation today, nor will there ever be – but even if there were, that would still be the WRONG CHOICE. Our freedom is VALUABLE, and what so many people have lost sight of is that sometimes that which is VALUABLE is also by definition COSTLY. If you want to turn the tide – preparedness is the solution – not legislation.
I get the impression by many of your statements that while you might put yourself out there as a fan of gun rights – your statements are VERY DANGEROUS to any of us who value our RIGHTS of ANY KIND. Bad things happen in life – the government does not exist to prevent those things – and I surely don’t want to live under any government that tries to prevent those things. Ooops… that’s the problem today – our government, our legislators, and far too many attorneys seem to believe that is their duty.
You have a right to your opinion – and it ends at your threshold – and it most assuredly ends before it crosses mine. If you want your freedoms – be sure to leave me to mine! If we could all live by those standards – and be willing to pay whatever price that freedom demands – we will be able to correct the situation we are currently in, and continue to live in the land of THE FREE — and the BRAVE. It’s no coincidence those words are so closely mentioned to each other. It takes Brave to be able to have Free !!! If you cannot be brave – you have no right to be free.
Just my opinion — as far as I’m concerned if you can meet the legal standard for ownership of a firearm, what type, style, or purpose that firearm was designed to fill is nobody’s business – and it’s mere ownership is in no way irresponsible. It’s use might well be – but then that’s another story isn’t it ?
Tim
This is a great thread. I get to see different peoples concepts and how they think. Very interesting. Some I agree with and some I don’t.
Keltec KSG – get one if available. Shorter is more maneuverable, yet still has an 18 inch barrel At 18 inches, Barrel length is plenty long enough for accuracy, yet this shotgun is smaller and easier to carry through the brush than a standard pump. Yes, I would take it Hog hunting.
Good for those 2 A.M. crashes in the night that require investigation. Easier to maneuver down hall ways and around corners (practice / get training). 12 gauge trumps handgun (even a .45) for close quarters. Many different loads available and still affordable to shoot.
Yes, it holds 14 rounds that can be mixed ( OO, birdshot, slugs, etc.). It is legal. Please leave moral outrage at home. My brother thinks I don’t need so many guns. I don’t think he needs a dog that weighs 100 lbs, much less 4 dogs. Both are legal. He can have his American Bulldogs and I can have my guns. I spend less on ammo then he does feeding his dogs.
Too much about fitting in with society. Problem is that everyone has their own opinion on how society should look.
Get a Keltec KSG if you want one. The newer ones are better than the original design.
Tim,
We are in total agreement. I would like to thank those I stood shoulder to shoulder with and are no longer here. It is a shame that what take so much for granted living in the U.S.A. and that there are so many people willing to do nothing. The reason we have the greatest fighting force is the fact that we still have people willing to be BRAVE (putting foot to A$$) wherever whenever. Just think about those who gave and those who gave all before thinking of these boundaries. We already had our tea party. That being said for too long have our rights been plagued by those who would limit our freedoms. “The world will not be destroyed by evil doers but by good people who stand by and do nothing”
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