Someone somewhere once said that God’s not picky about whom He choose to do His work. Not that you’d know it. Society sanctifies successful rabble rousers, leaving no room for foibles or contradictory information (Martin Luther King applied for a concealed carry permit, Mahatma Gandi was anti-disarmament). So now we have Marine and anti-war activist Adam Kokesh leading an armed march into gun-free D.C. [Full statement after the jump.] Kokesh’s civil disobedience demo is attracting willing gun rights guys and, of course, the media. Who so don’t “get” the United States Constitution. Check this reaction Kokesh’s crusade from washingtonpost.com . . .
Law enforcement officers who are sworn to serve and protect the public are “criminals”? The gun laws passed by the duly elected representatives of the people of the District are “unjust” because Kokesh disagrees with them? This sure is one slippery slope to anarchy if that loopy mindset were to take hold. Unfortunately, he has plenty of company on his absolute gun rights grassy knoll.
Kokesh’s Open Carry March on Washington is an extremely dangerous development—for the armed protestors involved, the police (and their credibility), the gun rights movement and the gun control movement. But then so was the American Revolution. Just sayin’. You in?
OFFICIAL STATEMENT [via adamvstheman.com]
On the morning of July 4, 2013, Independence Day, we will muster at the National Cemetery & at noon we will step off to march across the Memorial Bridge, down Independence Avenue, around the Capitol, the Supreme Court, & the White House, then down Constitution Avenue to peacefully return to Virginia across the Memorial Bridge. This is an act of civil disobedience, not a permitted event. We will march with rifles loaded & slung across our backs to put the government on notice that we will not be intimidated & cower in submission to tyranny. We are marching to mark the high water mark of government & to turn the tide. This will be a non-violent event, unless the government chooses to make it violent. Should we meet physical resistance, we will peacefully turn back, having shown that free people are not welcome in Washington, & return with the resolve that the politicians, bureaucrats, & enforcers of the federal government will not be welcome in the land of the free. “When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” – Thomas Jefferson. Does the government fear the people? If not, something is wrong, and we aim to change it.
It is time to marshall forces and grow our numbers. Please share this page and invite all your friends. There are only two ways this goes down. 1) Obama issues an order to the DC Chief of Police who has pledged to violate the Constitution and we execute our plan with a police escort. 2) We are not allowed to enter the District and will halt the formation well before the line at which point, with the whole world watching, we will declare the federal government illegitimate, and peacefully disperse. I much prefer option one, and the more people we have on board, the more likely it is to happen. So share this page and spread the word! It looks like we’re on track to clear 10k RSVPs well before the target of June 1. The more people think about this idea, the more they realize their fears are motivations, and their uneasiness turns to resolve. But let’s not stop at 10k. Let’s get 100k signed up so that Obama himself cannot ignore us! Who knows, maybe by Independence Day, we’ll have a million people standing with us to declare that the federal government has no authority over free people when free people are not allowed in the nation’s capitol!
This event is civil disobedience because we will be violating and/or attempting to violate various regulations that have been used to curtail freedom of speech and freedom of self-defense, however, this is in response to the DC Police refusing to follow the law of the Constitution. They have been in violation of court order and the law by continuing to enforce statures that have been ruled unconstitutional. This is one in a long train of abuses, but a government that cannot be trusted to follow its own rules cannot be trusted, and we cannot allow this lawlessness to continue. We must stop this criminal government!
You are welcome and highly encouraged to attend unarmed as a supporter, or armed with a recording device. Please RSVP in the affirmative (“Going”) if you plan to attend as a witness. If there are any active duty military or law enforcement who would like to honor their oath to the Constitution by supporting this march, please contact: [email protected]. We especially invite law enforcement officers to stand with us armed however they feel is appropriate.
All who attend this march armed will be asked to stand and move in a military formation in order to maintain unity and safety. You will be expected to be dressed professionally, and there will be an inspection. As organizer, AVTM reserves the right to reject anyone from the formation at any time for any reason. There will be no use of recording devices by anyone once they have joined the ranks. If you’d like to film or photograph, please do so from outside the formation so there is no potential for confusion with hand motions. If you are not ACTIVE law enforcement, you will be asked to leave if you have any firearms other than a single rifle or shotgun slung across your back with the muzzle pointed down. Aside from adjusting the sling, you will not touch your weapon at any time during this event.
There’s a remote chance that there will be violence as there has been from government before, and I think it should be clear that if anyone involved in this event is approached respectfully by agents of the state, they will submit to arrest without resisting. We are truly saying in the SUBTLEST way possible that we would rather die on our feet than live on our knees.
There will be coordination with all relevant law enforcement agencies prior to the event.
Thanks to all the donations that have come in, we will soon be able to hire someone to help organize and coordinate logistics. Please stand by for more on this by June 1.
This is not about me or any one person. This is about an idea whose time has come and therefor cannot be stopped by any amount of force or violence. If anything happens to me between now and Independence Day, this event and the movement behind it will continue. I am happy to face death in standing up for liberty, but I have done everything possible to ensure my death would be of little consequence by inspiring everyone to be their own leader.
Click here to join the conversation.
Wait a second:
“All who attend this march armed will be asked to stand and move in a military formation in order to maintain unity and safety. You will be expected to be dressed professionally, and there will be an inspection. As organizer, AVTM reserves the right to reject anyone from the formation at any time for any reason. There will be no use of recording devices by anyone once they have joined the ranks. If you’d like to film or photograph, please do so from outside the formation so there is no potential for confusion with hand motions. If you are not ACTIVE law enforcement, you will be asked to leave if you have any firearms other than a single rifle or shotgun slung across your back with the muzzle pointed down. Aside from adjusting the sling, you will not touch your weapon at any time during this event.”
Now THAT is beautiful, hilarious, unfiltered, creme de la creme IRONY!!! I hope someone has forwarded this to Jon Stewart….
I guess I’m missing the irony and your point.
One person could blow it. One person. One “law abiding citizen” loses his cool and the whole thing becomes a disaster, and the message totally backfires.
The organizers know this. So what do they do? Come up with a whole bunch of pleas (or “rules” if you will, or even “laws”) to make sure people stay in line and don’t screw it up.
One might describe those pleas/rules/laws — like keeping your muzzle pointed down, not touching your gun, staying in formation, professional dress, “there will be an inspection” — as “draconian.” Or “Gun Control.”
Because in a nation filled with self-entitled individualists, it’s certainly okay to have guns! But there has to be some sort of, you know, control.
… but seriously “there will be an inspection”??? ROTFL. The Daily Show skit just writes itself….
I’m not getting you either.
Yes, to a Daily Show liberal who thinks just long enough to confirm his assumption that he’s smarter than the subject matter at hand, there is irony here.
However, to a true libertarian thinker, or anyone who actually thought about it, there is none.
You see, the formation will be a voluntary association. If you don’t like the rules, you don’t have to associate with the formation. Not so the government.
Thinking just a moment longer, you’d realize that the organizer is laying out the rules in advance, so those who join the association know what they are agreeing to.
Kind of like the several states at the Constitutional Convention essentially said: “Before we join this thing, we want to know what the rules will be.” Some states even said: “We’re not joining, unless we get it in writing that this new thing we’re creating won’t dissarm us.”
So maybe there is some irony here.
Try some self doubt some time. It can save you from looking like an idiot.
That’s the well-regulated part.
So Duke, if the US government in the 21st century isn’t a “free association,” like this picture-of-democracy proposed protest/march is, what’s your alternative? Gather up your guns, your self-doubt, and your true libertarian thinking, and, together with your like-minded, entrepreneurial friends, “go Galt” somewhere? Then you’ll have TRUE freedom while I stay at home with the other ‘sheeple,’ watching the Daily Show and sneering self-assuredly, while I sip my fair trade latte and make fun of less-enlightened white people?
Alex,
First of all, a free association is not neccesarily a democracy. If the formation were a democracy, then once you joined you’d be stuck with the decisions of 51% of the formation.
To your point, I’m not interested in an alternative. I’m interested in the original formulation–that the Federal Government’s legitimate powers are only those specifically delegated to it; specifically to defend our individual rights; and that when it acts beyond these delegated powers it is nothing more than a band of thugs; even when it claims to be acting on a mandate from the people under Obama or a mandate from God under King George.
It’s not Ironic at all. No matter how many well reasoned, even minded, law abiding freedom lovers showed up at any of the state capital rallies this past year, every one of them had a few hooting idiots that wanted to push things just a bit farther than necessary.
In a situation like this, all it takes is one person doing something dumb or irresponsible and it would turn a march with a message into a disaster with many varying levels of wrong that it could descend into. It isn’t “… beautiful, hilarious, unfiltered, creme de la creme IRONY!!!” at all, it’s prudence.
All it would take is one DC cop to “think” he saw someone doing anything that he could claim was justification for a situation that could lead to violence and a debacle that the leftist media machine would use to great effect in re-igniting a new gun control push. No one needs that.
So what? These are all consenting adults.
But it doesn’t stop with them, the political pressure created by this march going wrong can hurt ALL OF US, fair or not.
And everyone *IS* armed! Might that not ensure a certain singularity of purpose?
Let me say it here, now: if there is trouble, it will be started by police/FBI PROVACATEURS.
Just as it’s “prudent,” in order to protect and justify the Second Amendment, to have SOME restrictions (or “infringements” if you prefer) on individuals right to bear arms. DC’s total prohibition on CC is probably unconstitutional. In that sense, the march is for a good cause.
But, due to all of the potential negative scenarios and “hooting idiots,” as this excerpt beautifully illustrates, there should be restrictions on one’s “right” to possess and use an instrument which empowers its user to swiftly and easily end another person’s life.
You might respond that criminals don’t obey laws, so by definition those restrictions only hurt the “law abiding.” That’s true, but people who use that argument fail to understand that without those laws, aggressive, bad behavior becomes normalized. Without the paragraph that I copied and pasted, a whole lot more hooting idiots would likely show up. If we had no prohibition against murder, I’m guessing there would be a lot more murdering going on. If we had no prohibition on automatic weapons, the DGUs described on this blog would have a whole lot more “non-combatant” deaths (not to mention property damage).
It’s all about moderation. 2a is necessary and good. If you want to CC a small caliber weapon for self-defense and know how to use it safely, that’s your choice, go for it. If someone tries to hurt you or your family, by all means, defend yourself. But it’s not tyranny to have magazine size restrictions and bans on weapons that are designed to look like weapons of war and are marketed as such.
But no: BHO wins two elections, our democratic republic creeps left after having crept right for a couple decades, and then all you “shall not be infringed” nutjobs just come out of the woodwork….
I should have said “passionate defenders,” not “nutjobs;” sorry.
Alex, I recommend you watch Mr. Colion Noir on Youtube. All of his non-gun review posts.
That’s a pretty stupid argument. We should put more laws to stop the precurser to bad behavior that is already against the law. Ya know, to prevent illegal bad behavior, using more laws. How about you arrest the existing law breakers when they commit a crime? Since they committed a crime. Not because they made you uncomfortable. I swear I saw Rachelle Maddow cheering for the IRS today on the news. We are dealing with people who are not based in reality.
I would suggest that you refrain from the ad hominems. Calling us “nutjobs” does not contribute anything meaningful to this conversation and is a waste of your time as well as ours.
Laws that are not enforceable are meaningless, especially in the context of gun control. A criminal that is contemplating a the commission of a crime that requires a firearm is already facing severe charges should he be caught. As a result the additional prohibition on the ownership of certain types of guns or magazines is negligible to that criminal element.
Your claim that laws exist to marginalize aggressive behavior is dubious as well. Laws against violent crime exist so that society has a functioning legal framework to remove those destructive elements of society. Restrictions on gun ownership cannot be applied in the same fashion as the mere act of possession alone is neither amoral nor a social detriment. Besides, if you think banning something will make it unpopular you probably have paid little attention to recorded history.
Also automatic weapons are not explicitly prohibited by law, they’ve just become incredibly expensive due to the Hughes Amendment.
No, all it will take is one agent provocateur to do something intentional to trigger this into a mass arrest, with violence, for the purpose of justifying a declaration of martial law against all who dissent from the illegal occupation government and are armed. Also, the “rules” Kokesh sets forth are not to keep his people in line. The “rules” are for the purpose of convincing the authorities that he really, really, means no harm if they will just let him complete his stunt without hurting anyone. Which means that this whole thing is a useless farce giving the authorities the power to turn it into whatever kind of anti-liberty propaganda message they want.
I’m also opposed to the march, for only slightly different reasons.
We need to differentiate why each side is opposed to Koresh’s march:
Anti-Second Amendment statists believe Koresh has no right to even have guns in the first place and that current statutes forbid the march. They want it stopped by force and an example made of him, which will greatly inhibit other such assertion of Constitutional and Natural Rights.
Many Pro-Second Amendment patriots are opposed, because the circumstances of the march will work against us. Let’s do the Texas march first, in a far better political climate, build our forces and march into DC when we are far stronger and have shifted the terms of the debate somewhat.
March Drawbacks:
– Overwhelming federal and district forces will be arrayed against us
– Media demonization of the march will precede it. turning public opinion against us
– Lack of training, discipline and cohesiveness of a heavily armed group, plus trigger happy feds and possible false flag plants in the marchers’ ranks, may lead to a very regrettable (for us) incident
– I don’t at all like the Koresh “brand” and do not wish to be linked to him
Imagine if the Patriot Colonist militia had marched to the battle of Lexington-Concord unorganized, in vastly inferior numbers, less equipped than the Redcoats, with no real strategy, no contingency plans, headed by a failed corporal who was not liked by many of his would-be recruits. We would now all have British accents and be paying taxes to the govt. in London (instead of the banks of London).
The restrictions against guns are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Thomas Jefferson stated that an unconstitutional law is no law at all and is of no effect. Of course, we must also be aware of the de facto forces arrayed against us. A true patriot chooses his battles.
In any case, the time for armed revolution is not now. I would like to see alternative approaches, such as that utilized in Poland, Czechoslovakia, India and South Africa.
Alex, maybe we should just kill people who believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. You wanna get proactive? Eliminating folks who might want to exercise their rights is an excellent start, wouldn’t you agree?
I can name several countries where you might find matters more to your liking.
Or you could just continue making America more like those countries. Be careful what you ask for.
Huzzah!!!
I see his point, but hoy….I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I just don’t see this ending well. For any of us.
Yeah, I’m thinking you might not have what it takes to turn things around. I’m sure you could live with full-bore totalitarianism; you don’t seem to value liberty much in the first place. I see a long career in boot-licking ahead for you.
Yeah, opinions vary. I gave mine with respect. Perhaps instead of your childish drivel your could explain your position, intelligently in an attempt to explain why I might be incorrect. All you have done is make a fool of yourself.
I see nothing but bull$hit ahead for you
The outcome will depend on how many show up, and just how stupid the government decides to be.
Likewise, stupidity could be lurking among the marching ranks.
Who knew stupidity could be do effective, huh? Stupid is supposed to result in failure.
Or maybe you’ll wise up and realize they’re not the stupid ones.
Or maybe your comment is stupid? Maybe you’re a genius? Not sure….in any event I never said “they” were the stupid ones. Re-read and get back to me.
If this were the 60s:
My first thoughts exactly. Unjust laws had to be disobeyed to push changes.
Too bad the MSM and establishment will never equate this as a fundamental rights issue.
Yes, but we need to be smart about how we resist. What did King and Ghandi have in common? Non-violence and minimal needless escalation. You want to tweak DC’s gun laws? Good, but you don’t need to give anti-gun types an excuse to call you an invading Army. Unloaded mags, or if you must unloaded guns would do just fine at this juncture without playing into the worst stereotypes.
Was the Children’s Campaign in Birmingham “needless escalation?”
Non-violence, yes. But they acted specifically to provoke a response from the local government, and escalated as much as proved necessary.
I’m happy the Founding Fathers didn’t see the King’s laws as unjust.
YOU?
There is a different between seeing a law as unjust and an act as unwise. This march is unwise.
You know I am torn on this, I really feel like it is my duty in some ways to participate, I think about the saying if not now then when if not me then who? I am no hero and don’t want anything to happen badly, I don’t know the other men that are attending and I don’t know their mindset. But at the same time I often talk about honor duty and respect, I fancy myself a patriot and think of what the founding fathers did and how they must have felt at Lexington. Is this what it has come too, is this the only way to change the course of our nation? To risk violence at the ands of our own Government?
If the government decides to do something stupid, what are the odds they slip someone amongst the marchers to do something stupid and make it look like the marchers were the instigators?
This. And you even have my name.
Hell, if I was there I would try to instigate something, just go walking around throwing firecrackers in trash cans the happen to be marching by.
We know. But unfortunately you raise a good point that any anti- gun schmuck could do something similar.
I see no good outcome from this. One of the following will happen:
1. Nobody shows up and the story is gun rights march fizzles.
2. People do show up and get arrested, prosecuted, and lose their rights all while DCPD crows about the “dangerous nuts” they faced down.
3. Some of these folks ARE dangerous nuts and things get violent, handing MAIG et. al. the real life gun owning boogeyman that they tried and failed to paint the NRA as.
If you want to highlight DC’s unconstitutional gun laws or their hypocritical uneven enforcement show up with an EMPTY 15 round magazine. There is no way that poses a threat to people and the cops saying otherwise would make them look silly. For extra effect show up with empty mags and David Gregory photos.
This guy is being a needlessly provocative @ss and will hurt all of us with his grandiose showboating, but he will get attention and I guess that is what matters to him.
And you have overanalysis and control issues. If these guys want to march, it is none of your business. If you don’t want to participate, don’t. Sit back and watch like the rest of us.
But what about the LAW? Whatever it says, it’s supreme and infallible, RIGHT?
IT IS MY BUSINESS if their actions endanger my 2nd amendment rights.
Million mag march with David Gregory masks and AR mags.
I like it.
I like that idea much better. Sort of like V. They can wear capes too if they want and march on the capital, standard capacity mag in hand.
I agree. I was thinking 30 round magazines as a reference to Gregory. The pictures is a nice touch though.
Totally agree! Would seem to me, this is more about the organizer than the cause. Want to risk existing gun rights of participants? What part of legal, responsible, gun owners is not understood. We have a legal ways to change or prevent infringement. It’s by ballot or non-provocative protest
I really, really, REALLY want to get behind this. But it’s just a bit scary. Should we put our money where our mouths are?
To ease your guilty conscience: the reason to not support this isn’t because it is scary, rather because it is dumb and counterproductive. Is this going to help gun rights be perceived as more legitimate by Joe and Jane Sixpack? No! Is it going to make anti-gun types realize the error of their ways? NO! Is it going to play into the stereotype of unhinged violent rednecks that is unfair and untrue but nonetheless compelling for people who don’t know lawful gun owners? Yes! Does it create a risk of needless escalation and demonization of all gun owners thanks to a megalomaniac? YES!
See, that is why you shouldn’t support it.
NO! Success is too SCARY! Women have more resolve than people like you…
Being afraid of marching with a thousand guys you don’t know and can’t vouch for isn’t cowardly, as you infer, it’s sensible. There is no way to be threatening with a standard cap mag. So much lass can go wrong this way.
Wow, sexist and stupid.
Brian, change your screen name to Vagina, now.
I actually know a guy that is going to participate. He lives close to the area, retired, and has nothing to lose if arrested. I, on the the other hand, live 500 miles away, have to work, and can’t afford to be arrested. Good luck to those who go.
Would this be a felony? Then they have a lot to lose.
From my understanding, it’s supposed to be a misdemeanor, but DC might try to get a felony charge.
Didn’t Kokesh get a less than honorable discharge for smuggling a pistol into the US?
Just a thought for coordination. I live in Massachusetts so maybe a contingent from New England can meet in a central location and charter a bus and split the cost. Maybe a central meeting point like oh I don’t know ….. the Springfield Armory, which was the United States’ primary arsenal during the U.S. Revolutionary War, and then as the battlefield of Shays’s Rebellion. Other areas of the country could do the same in their region and so on.
We just beat back a full court press by the machine. We’ve proved that simply calling, e-mailing, and supporting groups that fight for our rights worked. Had that all failed, I might understand this better. As it is it sounds like a statist dream come true. Nothing but a grand opprotunity to paint the movement as violent and estrange pro gun rights people from those that have no strong opinion. And if shots are fired and lives are lost, it will be painted as “our” fault, regardless of who fired first.
Gun owners who aren’t idiots should organize a counter protest blocking these morons from crossing the bridge with signs saying “Not helping” and “Quit making us look like idiots”
How do those boots taste, Brian?
Is your definition of bootlick anyone who doesn’t want to do a stupid, counterproductive thing?
Also, will you be marching? Or just being a keyboard commando per usual?
He is too busy cleaning up his constant trail of urine to be licking any boots.
Brian, there is a difference between not wanting to be a part of it / thinking it’s a bad idea and what you’ve been posting of “NEVER STAND UP TO THE ALMIGHTY GOVERNMENT!”
If we’d had more people like you 236 years ago we’d still be ruled by a monarch.
If I was in the area, yeah, I probably would join them because the more people they have the better – not just for the impact on TV, but because the more people that are marching the more impotent the DC police and Feds become.
You know there is a difference between saying “Never cross the government” and “This is not a good idea because the potentially huge costs outweigh the meager benefits and there are better ways to accomplish the same goals” right?
And since you aren’t in the area why don’t you locate the nearest no-gun zone and start a satellite march? I’m sure it will convince everyone and will in no way be counterproductive to the cause.
to Pulatso. You know after thinking about it further I think your idea is probably better if not a first step in the right direction. Maybe a petition started on this site to collect signatures and the signees can put what voting district they are in so as to personalize this all politicians, hopefully show them we are just nuts in the middle of the country but we are everywhere.
This…also, do we risk losing pro 2A representation resulting from this event going sideways? I think yes…not needed at this point.
How is this any scarier than the irrational fears that abounded as CCW proliferated across the nation? The IDEA of it is scary because we all fear that someone irrational will act in an irrational way.
I understand that this particular event has the potential to become high pressure but millions of law-abiding Americans carry guns every day. They don’t randomly engage in shoot outs with law enforcement. The addition of discipline in the marching formation *should* minimize the potential of any renegade aggression.
This is scarier because it is an engineered confrontation. The cops are going to be on a hair-trigger, some of the marchers may be a little nuts, or if you like a good conspiracy, a plant, and the end goal of the march could be accomplished with much less dangerous means (unloaded mags).
Brian you are more worried about appeasing fascists, gun grabbers and liberals who have never been outside a city limits sign. Do you always do only that which your opposition approves of?
The current Ruling Class needs people like Brian.
No, I am worried that this will get out of hand and alienate people who are on the fence, people we need on our side, or at least neutral, to peacefully enjoy and expand firearms rights in this country.
Let me ask you: Why do we need this march? Why do we need loaded guns? Are we sure there won’t be nuts or anti-gun plants in the group? These are all things that needlessly make this march risky for very little reward. We could do more for protecting out rights by spending July 4th taking newbies shooting or writing our Congressman.
I’m not trying to appease anyone, I’m just against stupid unforced errors. Hopefully Ralph is right and this is all resolved peacefully, but there is a chance it goes bad with a real serious result.
Serious results? So what?
No Joke, they need people like you to give them a boogie man they can sell to the masses.
Serious results = more calls for gun control, an undercutting of gun rights groups because they are affiliated with “violent lunatics” even if in reality the DCPD shot first, lots of undecideds seeing gun rights supporters as nuts carrying guns in the streets.
I would think you of all people would understand how a hostile media will spin this.
To shenendoah and joke. You guys are so pissed off about everything going on that you look at anyone going against this movement as the enemy. When, really, we just see that too many things could go wrong because of things beyond our control and it could blowback big time. I would gladly pay with my life to protect our freedom. I just don’t want to walk through a city where they have the high ground and the jump on me. Guerrilla style, just like the Patriot. Hopefully Brian can feels the same way about paying with his life should it come to it.
I hear you Carry. I don’t disagree with you. This movement needs folks of all passion levels. So what if something goes wrong? A little fear in the hearts of our politicians is not a bad thing.
Look at the open carry events in FL, gun owners said the same thing. in the end, these events where so uneventful that they now no longer get even any news coverage at all. LEO’s show in pairs, not by the hundreds.
Mixed feelings too. I think the tide may finally be starting to turn against the Progressive movement. If things go wrong here, it will give the administration a much needed distraction (at the very least).
Now, a large march of angry people carrying buckets of tar and sacks of feathers, screaming their lungs out in front of various government offices, that would make my heart very happy.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers. Maybe Kokesh is right, maybe it’s time for this. All I can say is, if I attend, I won’t be going armed.
Only problem is a government agent is going to let out a shot. Then there could be a real problem. If I were the government, I’d do nothing and let them do it. After all, it’s just people celebrating their constitutional and natural rights.
If you were the gov. they wouldn’t need a march.
I have to say this is a BAD idea. Like others I can see this going south real quick. It is never right to wrong to do right. We, as gun owners, need to obey the laws no mater how stupid. We can work together get the laws changed but this will not do well for our cause. It will probably be viewed as law breakers especially in the left leaning media, not Civil Disobedience like the organizer wants.
Just say’n
We, as gun owners, need to obey the laws no mater how stupid
Is that right Elmur? So if they pass a AWB 2.0 with no grandfathering, does that mean we should just give them all up?
Matt
No need for derogatory remarks “i.e. Elmur”. You are entitled to your opinion.
1. They will be breaking D.C. law.
2. Doing this with loaded weapons will likely result in shots fired.
3. Why give the Gun Grabbers any more points to bring against gun owners.
If you want to go that is certainly you choice, I’m not willing to face a Felony Convection.
As for a AWB 2.0, again personal choices, I choose to live in a state that even if AWB 2.0 was passed it would not be recognized because of the states constitution. Passing AWB 2.0 without grandfathering has such a slim chance that it is not even worth contemplating.
I am of the opinion that we gun owners, should not provide the people who want to take away our guns any more reasons to do so.
As for a AWB 2.0, again personal choices, I choose to live in a state that even if AWB 2.0 was passed it would not be recognized because of the states constitution.
The first civil war proved the Fed can do what it wants, and states rights go out the window. Your statement also contradicts the previous one of “We, as gun owners, need to obey the laws no mater how stupid.”
Passing AWB 2.0 without grandfathering has such a slim chance that it is not even worth contemplating.
As the republican party becomes more diversified, as is currently happening, they’ll begin to lose OFWGs. And you’ll see a domestic political parties similar to the Golden Dawn in Greece take the ex-Republicans. It could certainly happen then.
I’ll bet the first time somebody said “What if we just dumped the damn tea in the harbor?” they were called crazy and talked out of it by their sympathizers.
Some of you guys sound more like Brady material than like 2A activists. “There’ll be blood in the streets, I tell ya! Blood in the streets!”
No, there won’t.
Even if there isn’t it is needlessly scary to bystanders (the people we need to convince) and provocative, which makes it counter-productive. A march that makes people feel scared of gun owners rather than contemptuous of stupid gun laws, which this is shaping up to be, is going in the opposite direction of where we should be heading.
Somebody has to be at the head of the line when we are directed to turn in our firearms. Now we know. His name is Brian. In fact he will be camping three days ahead of time, like the lemmings for new iPhones.
How does this march help more than hurt? What is the marginal value of loaded guns vs. unloaded magazines? There is no sense in hurting the cause by being stupid or unnecessarily alienating people.
People said the same thing before every act of peaceful civil disobedience throughout the entire history of America. All of them were eventually proved wrong.
Nothing will be gained by shivering on our closets. In fact, if we do that, everything will be lost.
Having said that, this will be a non-event. The gathering will be broken up just as soon as it starts, or maybe before, but in any case before it gets to DC. Everyone will go home, and Koresh, oops, Kokesh will get the TV time that he craves.
Ralph, nobody is saying we just shiver in our closets, but this is stupid and is more likely to hurt than help. There are numerous ways to protest that do not run the same risk of escalation this does that would also be more effective.
First the location of the march, D.C., is in part to their denial of the right to bear arms. The act of getting arrested now allows a courtroom challenge to that denial of right. Carrying an unloaded mag is not an enumerated right. How then do you justify your defense in court? It has to be bearing arms, and it sounds like they are going out of their way to make sure there is no violence. Appropriate attire, not touching guns, etc. I think this is a good thing.
Donny, while I suspect you can make a legal claim on the magazine alone lets say, for the sake of argument, that you do need a gun to argue a 2nd Amendment case:
1. Why does it need to be loaded? An unloaded gun would also work and not carry the same risk.
2. Are you sure you want to risk a court finding that a licensing and registration regime passes constitutional muster, because that is what could happen. These would be TERRIBLE facts to go forward on.
Brian, what’s the sense of telling the marchers to have unloaded magazines? The “crazies” are going to do what they want. Since you can’t guarantee that everyone will abide by your proposed rule of not having loaded guns, you shouldn’t even bother making that rule in the first place. Crazies gonna crazy.
Alex,
Crazies may crazy, but this minimizes the risk of accident or mistake among the non-crazy marchers and the police, which is also a big issue. Also unloaded mags make it harder for the cops to justify the arrests (especially post David Gregory), where as loaded guns will be easy to justify.
Donny got my support with that one: magazines are not a right. It has to be the rifles. And why loaded? Because how can the police be sure they are unloaded? I’d rather have a loaded rifle around twitchy Feds and cops who could turn it ugly.
“How does this march help more than hurt? What is the marginal value of loaded guns vs. unloaded magazines? There is no sense in hurting the cause by being stupid or unnecessarily alienating people.”
The value of a loaded gun is not marginal. The fact that it is loaded and there are thousands marching with loaded guns is a powerful message. If they were unloaded guns the police could just arrest everyone and there would be no political dissent.
Also, we are the ones being alienated, Brian. We aren’t alienating anyone. We want our voices heard and this march is means to voice it.
You missed the part where he said if the cops want to arrest them they need to let them. So a loaded gun or not they aren’t supposed to fight back unless the government started it. Though I agree they should be loaded.
“Ralph, nobody is saying we just shiver in our closets, but this is stupid and is more likely to hurt than help. There are numerous ways to protest that do not run the same risk of escalation this does that would also be more effective.”
Numerous ways… like numerous campaign contributions? The people in this march want freedom not safety, Brian. They are fully aware of what could happen in an escalation and take the “risk” just by being there. I would think the people in this march probably don’t want you to worry about them – they want you to be quiet, watch, and listen.
I participated in an open carry march, and it was fine. Granted, OC was legal where we were, the event was planned, and the cops seemed to be on our side. Regardless, I tend to trust fellow lawfully armed citizens. It’s the Brady activists and their ilk that I fear in this situation. They would love to see this get out of hand, and I worry that at least some of them wouldn’t be above helping it go that way. I keep picturing some asshat tossing a string of firecrackers at a tense moment. Even putting Brady nuts aside, what about a nervous rookie cop with poor trigger discipline? I hope both the cops and the protestors are thinking cool thoughts.
This is a dumb idea.
A.The guy organizing this has, what I’d charitably describe as, a checkered past.
B. July 4th is the absolute worst day to do this. Aside from the symbolism of the day, the National Mall is filled with millions of people celebrating independence day. Just about every police officer in the area will be deployed dealing with this crowd. You wouldn’t be able to walk this route if you were carrying Nancy Pelosi on your shoulders, let alone armed in a group numbering anywhere from 1 – 1000.
I just don’t get what Kokesh is trying to do. If he is trying to whip up the faithful, well they are already pro 2A. If he is trying to drive off moderates who might be simpathetic to the 2A, I think he’ll certainly do that. If he just wants some publicity for himself without regard to it’s impact on the fight for the 2A, I’m sure he’ll get his publicity.
The fight to maintain and further the cause of the 2A is about numbers. The gun control legislation was defeated because enough pols thought they’d pay for it in the next election. We need to be a little more savy in pursuing those numbers or we’ve got a generation or two of gun freedom left in this country.
Quiet TT, Joke and Dagger will label you a traitor if you keep using logic and reason like that.
Not a traitor, just a timid pu$$y. All you can do is stand back and watch, like the rest of us.
You do know it is possible to not want to do something because it is a bad idea, right? This is a bad idea. If your goal is robust firearms freedom in perpetuity this march is counterproductive to that goal.
Joke are you an idiot? This won’t help the cause of the 2nd amendment in this country, this will hurt it. Marching into DC as an armed mob isn’t going to further our agenda, it is only going to alienate us from the very people we need on our side. I’ll take Colion Noir brand of aggressive, logic based advocasy over Kokesh publicity stunt any day. And anyone that thinks that makes me a pussy can kiss my a$$ Joke
Joke, are you an idiot? This doesn’t help the cause of the 2A, this hurts it. I’ll take Colion Noir’s brand of aggressive, logic based advocacy over Kokesh’s publicity stunt any day. And if you think that makes me a pu$$y Joke, you can kiss my a$$.
“Joke, are you an idiot?”
I very we’ll may be. I suppose it depends on the definition and the definer.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that we line up to turn in our guns. I think many people are saying that if you are winning (and it feels like we may just be on the cusp of turning the tide here, despite setbacks in an number of States), it’s better to double down on what we are doing rather than to take needless risks.
Now, if the Progressives don’t start to go into major decline after all the outrageous abuses of power that are coming to light…
Until then, I’m thinking if they are going to burn their own house down, we should show up with marsh-mellows instead of rifles.
“I just don’t get what Kokesh is trying to do. ”
Kokesh wants the pro gunner’s heard as they don’t have a voice. The media is almost completely controlled by media gun grabbers. When is the low information liberal voters in the city going to see we have our own culture and there are vast numbers of us that would prefer to be left alone.
My 1st post here. I really want to support this. I’ve watched many videos about Adam Kokesh and have really, really tried to discern his true intent. I’ve read many post both for & against this march. Here’s my opinion. First, every single comment was pro 2A. That’s important because we’re all on the same side but this march seems to be dividing us. That’s bad. Let’s not let this thing rock the boat we are all in. Second, I don’t think Kokesh is a insincere…..I believe he just disagrees with the government and is the type to take action. He’s not an Obama plant as someone suggested. His passion seems legit to me. That’s good. Third, this thing could go really bad. There could be a massacre. That’s bad. Fourth, I truly don’t think the police are going to fire on citizens when every tv in America is watching. Cameras will be everywhere. Whoever started it would be revealed. That’s good. Fifth, I smell real fear in some of he comments. Some otherwise intelligent posters have let their emotions control their rational. If Kokesh had 500,000 on the list now instead of 5,000 there wouldn’t be a single naysayer on here……we’re all be going! Now that last observation is very telling. Are we cowards? Isn’t the capital of our nation Washington, D.C.? Are not the policies coming from there affecting all of us? Someone from Alaska has as much right to protest in Washington, D.C. as someone from Maryland!! No. There is a taste of fear in some of the comments. The reasons they state for not participating sound very reasonable…..but underneath they are scared. Heck, I’m scared of what may happen, I admit. That’s bad & good. Only a fool rushes into something like this…..but don’t let fear be the master. If you truly believe its our right as defined by the Constitution then perhaps fear must be overcome. Like I said, I’m damn sure if 500,000 people were signed up already there wouldn’t be a sole on here against it. But that still shouldn’t divide us. My last thought: This thing could indeed get bloody but I don’t nessasarily see that playing into the anti-guns crowds favor. Again cameras will be everywhere… Cops HATE cameras! This may keep the marchers safe but if not, well, seeing a bunch of Joe-6-packs murdered could destroy the governments arguement of legitimacy. That would be terrible but win the war for us. It truly is going to be facinating to watch. I’m don’t know if I’ll go but I really want to be a part of this. It is historic but the numbers need to rise.
So which river are they crossing? The Potomac, or the Rubicon?
Maybe the Delaware.
It’s real simple. All you who think this is a good idea, put your money where your mouth is, show up and join the ranks.
I think that we’re winning this fight and an unneeded confrontation and possible bloodshed will do nothing but harm to our cause. Kokesh may be the government plant that the theorists are always worried about.
That was one of Stalin’s favorite tactics. Send KGB agents out to start resistence groups against the government and then shoot all that showed up for the meetings.
^This
The march itself may be a decent idea if congress had raked us over the coals. However, since we won that battle (for now) I still think we should stick to the courts for the state by state battles. This is more of a “last ditch” effort that is too soon to use in our current climate. We only have a year to go before the mid-terms. We don’t need anything crazy happening before then.
The part about this that I really dont agree with is the part of having the guns loaded. All it takes is for one person to have and accident and it all goes to hell. A cop could grab for a rifle on someones back and maybe he left the safety off and it discharges. The cops will likely think shots fired and shoot back, now others charge their rifles to return fire and the whole thing goes to hell and there will be no way to stop any gun control measure than gets put forward. Pro 2a will likely lose all supporters. Worst case scenario yes, but I wouldnt put it past the anti groups to set it up.
Yep, needlessly dangerous and provocative. Why not rifles with actions open and a lock through so it is obvious that it is empty? Still violating the law, still disobedience, no credible risk of accidental discharge, making police overreaction both less likely and less justifiable.
This Kokesh guy is either an idiot, a madman, or a bad actor.
Kokesh forgot option #3. The DC cops let you cross then fall on you like a bag of rusty hammers.
It might be stopped in VA on a bogus “public disturbance” charge. Cops tell them to go home, they’ll either go home or sit in and maybe get Maced.
This is a peaceful protest.
This is the best likely outcome available if it actually happens.
I don’t know if it’s the best outcome, but it is the most likely.
Imagine if the bus carrying Rosa Parks had just dropped her at her scheduled stop. We would never have heard of her. It would have been a non-event.
The same principal is involved here. Kokesh is a putz, but not a fool. He doesn’t want to march around DC. He wants to get stopped. Arrested is good, too. Whether it happens in DC or VA is irrelevant. He’ll still be his own Rosa Parks and he will have his soapbox.
The Rosa Parks analogy breaks down when we consider that Parks did what she did in a way to minimize unnecessary provocation whereas this march is trying to maximize it with the guns being loaded etc.
“This is a peaceful protest” You hope. It is also a perfect time for the opposition to carry on some mischief.
This can be used to head off any protest anywhere. When does one protest then, under that condition?
“Law enforcement officers who are sworn to serve and protect the *public* are “criminals”? The gun laws passed by the duly elected representatives of the people of the District are “unjust” because **Kokesh disagrees with them**? This sure is one slippery slope to ***anarchy*** if that loopy mindset were to take hold. Unfortunately, he has plenty of company on his absolute gun rights grassy knoll.”
*Constitution
** They ban the keep and bearing of commonly possessed firearms for lawful purpose
*** Respecting the Constitution
There. Fix’d that for ya
I think the protest if done well is a good thing. It gets guns in the face of the public & that is needed. The rules he set up are necessary, these are baby steps & I wish him well. I agree with the more level headed on here(can I judge? lol) this is a benign event, Randy
Adam Kokesh strikes me as an agent provocateur. He’s spent years allied with the far left. I don’t trust him.
Research him.
I think of him as a self-aggrandizing publicity hound. Like John Kerry when he was a war protester. Fortunately, Kerry never got any mileage out of being a traitor.
Oh, wait . . . .
+100 to your comment Michael B.
Kokesh can make his point by marching with unloaded weapons. Puting a round in the chamber does not make the open carrying of arms in the District more “illegaler.” Kokesh is looking for an armed confrontation because he thinks that it will be a second Lexington. It won’t be Lexington. It will be a Reichstag moment. Unfortunately there are enough fools out there for this disaster to happen. I am going to enjoys guns for the next six weeks. Funny how our conspiracy theorists don’t see the false flag potential here.
Agreed. We’re winning the culture war on guns, winning in the courts, winning legislatively in a bunch of states, and keeping federal gun control at bay.
This guy is either insane or he is, as I suspect, an agent provocateur.
He said this: “This is an armed revolt against the American government. Make no mistake about it. We are going with the aim of overthrowing the government.”
http://seggleston.com/1/opinion/you-must-reject-armed-march
Sorry if this has already been said, but maybe a compromise is in order:
If these guys want to march on Washington to illustrate their belief that certain freedoms and rights are being actively infringed upon by the government, then fine. But they should not do so using loaded weapons. As the 300 comments above me show, this appears to be unsound from a safety standpoint.
But, 30 round magazines are technically just as illegal in D.C. Wasn’t there a case just a few months ago of a news anchor who was nearly brought up on charges for possession?
Have the protesters show up with empty (or even loaded) magazines, and no rifles. Not only does it get the point across safely and succinctly, but it also can’t be reasonably construed as a “threat to national security”.
They have already conceded that they will not take in any weapons ino DC as the Chief of Police has already informeed them and the media that she intends to arrest every person carrying a firearm into DC. This is old news unless they have changed their position on the march in the last few weeks.
I have done some research on the leader of this march, and I’ll be hundreds of miles away from D.C. on the 4th of July. This guy has publically stated that he suffers from PTSD, and has intentionally gotten arrested in the past in less than “peaceful” fashion. My prediction is that it won’t go well, and arrests will be made after shots are fired. I can’t predict who will do the shooting first, but it won’t matter to the media or twits like Feinstein and Schumer.
I don’t see this ending well…
like most “i’m gonna”s and “we’re gonna”s this isn’t going to happen. big talk is usually a proxy for big action. everyone including adam kokesh is going to chicken out.
Forget the collectivist’s tactics of demonizing Kokesh and focus on the hundreds or thousands of people stepping up and showing they are part of the Three Percent.
Lead, follow or get out of the way.
Will you be at the march?
Maybe I will. Maybe I won’t.
Send a mugshot.
I can assure you my mugshot won’t be similar to this:
http://ww2today.com/13th-july-1942-horror-of-the-liquidation-of-the-rovno-ghetto
I’m pretty confident your mugshot won’t look like anything at all since you aren’t going. However you will always have the title of the toughest typist in the East
Sorry Bri, I’ve been out mountain biking, eating wood-fired pizza and drinking draft craft. With your harsh words, I will go to bed, curl up into the fetal position and cry myself to sleep. Good nite.
Alone i imagine.
its hard to have friends when you act like James Yeager…
Yeager is married. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Forget the collectivist’s tactics of demonizing Kokesh and focus on the hundreds or thousands of people stepping up and showing they are part of the Three Percenters.
Lead, follow or get out of the way.
While I support the idea of open carry, and basically tossing all the commerce and “gun” laws we have now out the window, I see to many things that could go wrong with this march. The GRAA, Oath Keepers, and Californians Against Gun Restrictions have all made public responses against this march.
My feeling is this. March with cardboard cut outs of 30 round magazines, and rifles slung over your back, made of cardboard of course. It makes the point with out breaking the law.
Careful, Totenglock and Joke & Dagger will demand you get fired for talking like that.
Oath Keepers? I highly suspect the everyday dudes marching on Washington are going to more useful in resisting a potential future tyrannical government crackdown than a bunch of pension obsessed Gov employees.
It comes down to those government employees refusing to give orders to fire on Americans. There is an old saying that the pen is mightier than the sword. lol I get it guys.
Down deep I would love it if the DCPD simply escorted them on their walk in the nice whether and let them disperse with out incident. That would be the best case scenario.
As Sam Houston marched his provisional army away from the advancing Mexican army, his officers declared that his strategy was madness and demanded he relieve himself of duty. He replied that anyone was welcome to lead the army in his place… provided they got past his pistols first. The officers threatened to mutiny as Houston backed his army into a corner and they were sure he was insane when he ordered his troops to turn and attack the much larger force. There will always be naysayers and a ballsy strategy like Houston’s (or Kokesh’s) is bound to bring them out of the woodwork, but I’ll parody the President and say that you should ignore those voices.
Sometimes you have to push the boundaries. Sometimes that takes balls.
Houston wasn’t an ally of a bunch of jackasses who wanted to radically transform America into a tyranny.
I support 2A 200 % , but this is a false flag event looking for a place to happen!
Someone’s gonna die. Get a lot of people together and someone’s gonna die. I’ve seen it at Bonaroo. It happens at NASCAR events. Summer heat in DC, loaded guns and a few bad apples to ruin the bunch and someone’s gonna die.
Yeah, if you start to add up all the factors for accidents, provocation, or just plain old stupidity, it’s the cliched “disaster waiting to happen.” And for what? The best case scenario is no deaths, but some tense and extremely sketchy moments, a media circus of non-stop jackassery . . . and the rhetorical ammo handed over to the 2a haters. How many people in DC who support gun control are going to change their minds after what will appear to be an invasion of a highly armed insane clown posse?
It would go much better if it was done as a CCW march. Everyone armed but holstered and not showing.
Possible upsides of this plan: Kokesh’s long sought 15 minutes of fame have finally arrived! Otherwise pointless.
Possible downsides of this plan if the march is successful: People who are currently neutral or apathetic will view the imagery of an armed march on DC as needless provocation, pushing them into the anti-gun camp.
Possible downsides of this plan if the march is not successful: Arrests, injuries, possible fatalities, which is even more provocation to push people into the anti-gun camp.
There is no upside to a sucker’s bet. Don’t take it.
One more thought. this march doesn’t sound like it is in support of the Constitution. This looks more like Mussolini’s march Rome with his blackshirts than it does like a march for freedom. We have, for the moment, defeated the anti-Second Amendment forces at the federal level. The system is working in our favor. There is no reason to march on DC with loaded weapons when there will be hundreds of thousands of bystanders on the Mall for the 4th of July festivities. If you want to march then go to the states where the anti-Second Amendment forces are ascendant.
I have said in the past that the Army will not come out to enforce a martial law scenario. They will come out if it looks an armed insurrection is taking place in the capital. Kokesh will not be viewed as a citizen under attack. He will be seen as the aggressor by both the police, the military and a vast majority of the people. If he wants to carry this out peacefully then he need to rethink how he will break DC law without appearing to be baiting the authorities into violently suppressing them. The more I think about it Kokesh is either false flagging this for Obama or he is mentally unbalanced.
Or maybe he and his companions are planting the seed of fear into politicians of all parties. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
Funny, didnt the Liberator and the failure of gun control in Congress already do that?
You know what, ill say it too.
THIS IS A BAD IDEA!
So anyone wanna come reduce themselves to a 4th grade level by saying im unamerican, a pu$$y, an idiot, a boot licker, or otherwise just because i disagree with something????
ANYONE???????
Jesus, some of you people are the reason we are called gun NUTS. If guns arent involved, your just plain a$$holes who didnt get their ice cream when they cried for an hour or two.
act like a freaking adult. dont talk down on people who simply dont agree with Kokesh. It makes you no better than people like Cuomo, Feinstein, and Bloomberg. Ive played 12 year olds on Xbox live that are more mature than some of you people.
Pu$$y
I don’t recall having a problem.
Am I wrong here?
You know, I must give you some credit. That was actually humorous.
If this goes off, without a hitch and actually accomplishes its goal and helps the 2a cause, I will retract my statements and become a believer.
That being said, I still think we shouldnt jump down the throats of those we don’t agree with.
To build on some of the smarter criticisms above of “Pinky” Kokesh and his ego crusade: this march is an attempt to violate the local authority and democracy of DC. Let the sheeple of DC do their OWN advocacy for RKBA. If you can buy a firearm and accessories where you live, then the 2a is working for you — there’s no need to march on a territory where the majority of Americans have democratically decided to restrict their former rights. They’ve voted for their politicians and their agendas and they can vote them out. The march is not a “liberation,” it’s an invasion. Trying to incite a needless confrontation with cops (and who else? FBI? National Guard?), doesn’t convince the local population to push harder for RKBA. It could very well have the perverse effect of making the citizens of DC MORE reliant on local law enforcement to protect them from an army of invading “crazies.”
I think you may be missing the part where D.C. Is the seat of power for the entire country. This is a national movement.
To Alex and Brian – and those similar (you know who you are). I encourage you all to watch this video (completely – beginning to end):
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/05/robert-farago/new-jersey-is-a-slave-state-in-case-you-didnt-know/
This is why Kokesh is marching. This is why he will have people marching with him.
I admire the spirit, but I think this thing is huge mistake waiting to happen.
If Kokesh had 500,000 people signed up now instead of 5,000 I doubt a single 2A person would be poo-pooing the idea. It’s fear! I understand, I’m scared of what might happen too. But I keep reflecting on the fact that a few thousand COULD be stopped. Hundreds of thousands COULDN’T……..they would politely escort us wherever we wanted to march. The success or failure of this depends on guts.
“Private Joker’s silly and he’s ignorant, but he’s got guts and guts is enough!” – Gunnery Seargant Hartman/Full Metal Jacket
what a dumb ass. would have better out come if everybody stayed home for a month and not went to any stores or work or bought gas. not even to the bank
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