http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T6cG7FC71c
The rumor mill was pretty quick to jump to conclusions about the LAPD setting the blaze that engulfed Christopher Dorner’s hideout in San Bernardino County. And this video isn’t going to help things much. Apparently police officers are heard in the background stating that they are going to burn the cabin down, in a move that would doubtless be approved by the ATF. Somehow I doubt that particular negotiation tactic is standard procedure for use by California’s police officers.
The LAPD and the ATF are probably hiding evidence of another fuck up. Woopsies, we confused a Toyota with a Nissan again, lets burn the bodies before anybody notices.
With all the moves the cops have taken in this, it is looking more and more like they don’t want to take Dorner alive at all. Shooting up two cars without warning, burning him out of his cabin. Makes one wonder.
Yup. Setting fire to an occupied structure is not SOP.
So…. Janet Reno was present!
The poor sap was Reno’d in her honor, we can suppose.
The rumor mill will believe, and the evidence suggests (given the two noninvolved pickup truck shootings) that Dorner was never going to be taken alive even if he walked out the door with his hands held high.
It’s episodes like this that help me understand why so many people hate LAPD with such a passion.
Pretty much all police departments in the country practice summary “justice”. They routinely beat the shit out of suspects or even innocents, especially minorities and the poor.
I’m usually not much for rumor mills but, as you stated, the fact that they blasted the shit out of two innocent peoples’ trucks it’s hard to argue they wanted to give him a fair shake.
Sorry guys, but this psycho got the same due process as Bonnie & Clyde. Deservedly so and good riddance!
Agreed. There is no “fair shake” to be given. His little manifesto made it abundantly clear that he is guilty, I wouldn’t want to take him alive either.
Where is Smokey the Bear when you need him?
Only YOU can prevent fugitive fires!
Laugh.
Well played.
“Gun battle underway in search for Christopher Dorner”
Yes. Well. If a gun battle is underway, I’d say you either have a blue-on-blue problem, or you’ve found him and he’s shooting at you, don’t you think?
You forgot the obvious third possibility: they could be blasting a couple of old ladies delivering newspapers. “That paper she threw looked exactly like a .357 bullet! Honest!”
Instead of fighting the man face to face like men or capturing him and I don’t know, following due process? giving him a day in court like we do here because we are supposed to be better than this, we burn in alive in a cabin? what a disgrace.
+1000
Days like today undermine the integrity of our criminal justice system.
Everyday is like today, somewhere in the US.
http://www.policemisconduct.net/
Cato took this one over a few years ago and it’s good stuff. Only vetted stories from real news outlets. From what little police misconduct actually makes it to the news, these are pretty thorough, including follow-ups on what (if any) charges are filed, and if there is a conviction/sentence.
“Only vetted stories from real news outlets.”
Isn’t that an oxymoron?
If he had been arrested and convicted, LAPD would have had to pay out the $1.2M to someone.
Fair enough, just trying to emphasize that this is the stuff that makes it through the ‘MSM’ and justice system, despite the culture of minimization and apology for police misconduct.
Which makes it rather credible.
We’ve got Guantanamo for one sort, the torch for the other. Due Process is only for bankers, so far as I can tell.
Exemption from prosecution is apparently the new “due process”, then. {sigh}
Due exemption? Due deferral of prosecution? Due bailouts? They’re due quite a lot, for some reason. Politicians found a new way to rob bankers. Asked why they lean on bankers for contributions they replied -“because that’s where the money is.”
Wiebelhaus,
How exactly would you have captured him alive? It’s that easy huh? Perhaps you should have stepped in and told the police you would walk up to the cabin and quietly detain this man and bring him to court.
I honestly hope those Korean store owners (circa 1992) kept their weapons in good repair. They are going to need them.
I doubt it.
While I would like to believe the rumors that he was a good guy drummed out of the force because he reported another cop for brutality, good guys don’t murder people just because they’re related to someone you have a grudge against.
Bingo
unless you are very desperate and don’t have many options.
trust me, you push anyone hard enough and they will get you back anyway they can.
not justifying what this guy did in any way but what do you think would happen if the gov went to war with the citizens? would the outgunned amass head on with the apache/drone/tank/F-15’s or would they start killing/holding hostage the soldiers families?!?
Good-guy cop (who happens to be a minority) drummed out of a police force widely believed to be corrupt because he reported another officer for brutality (very likely committed on a minority suspect)?
I could be wrong, but that seems to be exactly the kind of case AG Holder would love to prosecute. Did Dorner try approaching the Feds?
Unless you are the United States government.
“I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well being of their children.” -Robert Gibbs describing the US drone policy.
Today’s non-judicial execution brought to you by the fine, upstanding, hard-working, heroes in law enforcement. Who can always be counted on for their dedication, restraint, professionalism, and commitment to our system of laws. Good thing they’re so well trained.
Don’t worry though. I’m sure there’s dozens of the coppers of integrity just chomping at the bit to arrest these guys for so enthusiastically killing a suspect.
A fire broke out. Intentional or not, the suspect that just got done murdering another cop and putting another in the hospital had every ability to walk his stupid butt out, have his day in court and get a long past due execution in a decade or so. He choose the BBQ route and I thank him for his fiscal responsibly, and wish him the best in his own little corner of hell.
These guys do have a way of “choosing” it, definitely. Koresh chose it, meaning it should have been obvious to him patience was running very low. I note that we don’t surround and pressure Bankers even when we know they’ve destroyed millions of lives and are still breaking the law. We use consent decrees and deferred prosecution agreements instead. There is something about using bullets instead of town-impoverishing collateralized debt obligations that gets people’s blood up.
This is a reality I wish more folks would recognize. It’s more difficult and expensive to prosecute financial crimes but the consequences of not doing are destroying more than bullets ever will.
Intentional or not my arse. They planned to set it by launching enough CS to start the fire and kill him. And they did. Did you even listen to the tape?
So, we arrest serial killers, give them their day in court, but this is somehow different huh? Coupla coppers get killed and we just turn off the law? Move to South America, you’d be more happy with their judicial systems.
Just hope you’re never out delivering newspapers or something, when these pathetic thugs you’re defending decide you look ‘close enough’ to someone they want to execute.
You’re quite vocal, I wonder how you would have recommended they proceed, under fire and whatnot?
I note that they’ve completely thrown out the wonderful “blast him with bad rock” tactic that has worked in other cases. Noriega got Detachment Delta, bad rock, and captured. This guy? They didn’t even scream orders over loud speakers. Flash bangs with a fire hose at the ready would have been civilized. Of course Dorner probably would have shot himself anyway at some point. No? We had a very decent township cop do himself yesterday over less, emotional stress, family. We never lose an LEO to gunfire.
Same way it used to be done, when you actually wanted to take suspects alive.
If you’re taking fire and there’s no non-combatants to protect: you fall back, establish a perimeter and assess the de-escalation options. Unless of course, you just want to kill someone.
And yeah, I’m growing tired of defending coppers, even though I know several, drink with more, and have had several relatives who were. Especially after having to make a call a few days ago to get a couple of friends out of a dirty stop that was going worse by the second at the hands of a punk 25 year old paramilitary roid ranger. If I hadn’t been able to get a hold of the of an LT buddy, it could have gone very badly. For anyone else without the right connects, it would have.
J,
Pretty simple. They surround the cabin and then sit on their tax fattened asses until he surrenders. They get paid the same no matter if they are sitting at a speed trap or surrounding a bad guy holed up in a cabin.
He chose not to come out. He didnt give up. And what would you do if he refused to come out? Go up there yourself and place him in cuffs?
Apollo 13 ( I watched it live in TV, did you?),
Place him in cuffs? Pathetic non-argument of fudds and badge-lickers.
Fall back, establish perimeter. You have plenty of armored vehicles to let him fire ’til he’s out of rounds. Then he either surrenders, or he offs himself.
Either way, it’s not the SA death-squad.
I know that everyone thinks that LAPD patrols all of Southern California, but LAPD actually had very very little to do with the incident today, this was the SBSO.
True. It was the SBSO that ran the operation that resulted in what we saw.
Which should be even more illuminating for the people who still try cling to the belief that “LAPD is a fluke”. Or that all the overkill was just because LAPD was all emotional, everybody else will be professionals.
In the scope of the fickle public that is southern California, does it matter who pulled the pin? Of course you are right, but news reports were blatantly reporting that county and city lines were not a factor in this manhunt. KTLA was pounding the “No jurisdiction” line all afternoon.
Since when did police have a licence to fire indiscriminately upon civilians, kill instead of taking alive, and lighting cabins on fire? Seems to be a breach of due process and the concept of innocent until proven guilty. I don’t doubt that Dorner would have been convicted, but the LAPD’s reckless disregard for this piece of our justice system and their apparent willingness to shoot anything without stopping to think has got me very worried. Very, very worried. Almost as if the police are not using their weapons for defense but instead to terrorize and instill fear.
You can ve worried. I will be outraged. This is a clear case of premeditated murder to cover up a crime. That’s murder 1 in al,ost all jurisdictions. This is a preview of what will happen to anybody who defies the civilian disarmament we all know is coming.
Well, that CA chief said last week that police don’t use their guns for defensive purposes.
I heard it with my own 2 ears on the police scanner. “we’re gonna go forward with the plan, with the burn” “like we talked about”
I can’t verify it was LAPD though, San Bernadino sheriff had the lead on it today as far as I knew.
Doesn’t surprise me though, this is like the 4th “standoff” in So Cal in the past few years that has ended with the suspect burning inside the building. Even one of the more prominent news guys on the radio said it would appear this is now a tactic of the swat teams.
I heard that too…but lets not forget that just prior to this, he had:
-Tied up several women in Big Bear before stealing their car.
– Jacked another car at gunpoint after crashing the first.
– Shot at a Forestry/Fish & Game officer.
– Led police on a running firefight through the forest, finally settling in inside a relatively secluded cabin, continuing to fire upon officers, killing one and seriously wounding another. At one point, the incident command was reporting “we’re taking automatic fire”.
– Officers had to throw smoke cans just to get close enough to exfiltrate their wounded officers under fire.
– During this time, the officers gassed the crap out of the building to try to flush him out. It didn’t work.
– They tried peeling back the outer walls with their BearCat SWAT vehicle…that didn’t work, and they continued taking fire.
If the Sheriff did purposefully set the structure on fire, all Dorner had to do was walk out with his hands up and surrender. At that point, he had lost the battle. If he had done that, and he had been shot while exiting the building, THEN we would have had reason to be up in arms about this…instead, it seems that he shot himself while the building was only partially (one side) involved in fire.
Alternately, should the officers just have said “oh, crap, he went inside, there’s no way we can get him now….let’s go home and have a beer”?
Also, smoke and CS canisters can get quite hot. It is entirely possible for them to start a fire under appropriate conditions.
So his choices are to burn alive or come out and be executed and you think we should be up in arms about the hypothetical latter scenario, if it happened, and not the former (which did happen)?
We wouldn’t have even ****ing known if he’d been shot down with his hands up. No cameras were allowed.
He could have taken himself out 2/1/2013 and saved six lives. He chose his path. People need to stop getting their panties in a bunch, what do you want the cops to do? They are people just like you; wives that nag them, kids that ignore them (I’m projecting), but in the end they want to go on with their life’s and go home. Bad guy chose the path he wanted. He could have walked into a police station at any time. Now there are kids who get the joy of growing up without a father at least they could have had a chance to choose between mom or dad in a messy divorce.
Dorna chose his path and some of you people need to accept that. Don’t be hating people who want to go home and hug their kids.
And all the government employees had to do was sit and wait for him to walk out. That is what they are paid to do.
I’m not complaining. I think it’s a legitimate strategy for a person/situation like this. (not for a situation like Waco). I’m just saying that they were intent on burning it, it was part of their strategy, and they should own it.
I have other opinions, as I’m sure most do, but they are just armchair quarterbacking so it just doesn’t matter.
The biggest problem I had was the way the civilians coming down the mountain were treated when their cars were searched. If I had searched cars that way in Afghanistan I’d be in the brig right now.
Good grief. I’m no LAPD sympathizer, but smoke grenades set fires all the time. Could it be that they kept launching them until one caught fire? Sure. Do I give a rip even if they did use smoke grenades just to start a fire? Not in the least. This guy wanted to kill as many as possible. What other course should they have taken? Set up camp and wait for him to start another gun fight with the 50 Cal he was bragging about? Screw that. If he wanted to walk out he could have when multiple choppers had cameras zoomed on the house. He wanted to kill more if he could or die on his terms if he couldn’t.
You mean all the next choppers that were ordered not to get too close by cops? You know, like close enough to actually film anything to be used against them later?
Yeah. The ones hovering over for for a good 30 minutes. They were still able to film. They were just asked not to broadcast live. There was also one journalist embedded with the swat team. What par this fu<ker just murdered numerous innocent peopleisn't sinking into you head?
I’d respond further but this is hands down the shittiest mobile interface I’ve ever tried to type on.
What part of “this is America and this isn’t our justice system” isn’t sinking in to yours?
Even the worst scum bag deserves better than this. They could have easily starved him out. They chose to murder him. That’s the actions of vigilante scum, not law enforcement.
Filming what? Long distance shots? Irrelevant.
That was all that was happening on every source I saw, and I heard the transmits telling all the news choppers to keep back.
Pwr, He called the father of a victim to gloat. Dying in a fire is much too good for him.
16V, I really don’t know who pissed in your wheaties, but really, this guy had evaded cops a number of times, each time costing blood. If night fell, he would have had opportunities to slip into the forest. There was absolutely nothing unlawful about forcing a suspect to choose death or capture in a manner that precluded further loss of innocent life. This guy wasn’t executed. He choose death, and good on him for it. He was alone in a house. The only injustice here was to the property owner, and I’m guessing they will be compensated.
Another voice of reason…balancing out you tin foil hat wearin’, cop hatin’, “Waco style”, conspiracy thinkin’ nut jobs.
Inbox485, People who piss on The Constitution piss on my wheaties.
He was entitled to a trial by jury. Not a state-sponsored execution.
Just drive a tank up with a standard insulator foaming machine. Crash it through the window and foam the f’g house. There. Alternatively turn fire houses on the house, soak it to oblivion, and freeze the guy. It won’t kill him and he can come out any time. I’m not the least bit sympathetic to the guy, just interested in non-lethal alternatives because I’m a fan of courtroom trials. And and my personal take is the whole thing began when the Captain’s daughter became engaged to some other black guy. Put him over the top. Broken heart. “I can’t have a family so….” etc. Totally emotionally confused guy.
People who will have their dirty laundry aired by the ton in a trial, interestingly enough, aren’t too fascinated by them.
Yes, please lets have another OJ trail. Dorner got what he wanted, the bad is six had to die for him.
Please explain this view of what the Constitution says when you are shooting at LE’s…and he’s flying the flag “Come and take it”. Presumed innocent? When?
This reminds me of watching Dirty Harry, “You should have gotten a warrant.” Oh please. (Yes, they need to get a warrant, but you know what I’m saying).
Better watch what you advocate. Citizens might decide that LEs are flying the black flag as well.
I know exactly what you’re saying, ignore The Constitution because this was a “bad guy”.
Presumed innocent? You betcha. Every serial killer gets the same presumption. Because if you take it away for the ‘bad guys’, then it has no meaning for anyone.
That’s just unsporting.
That’s my feeling. It’s too much like using dogs to tree a cougar, then shooting him out of the tree.
Good, he ‘effing deserved it. POS
No man deserves to burn alive. Trust me. It’s one of the most horrible ways to die in existence. I would have put a round in his head myself, but this is just sick.
He offed himself just as the building started to catch.
Good, it’s like Badic Training for HELL
“Good, let’s toss due process and the law away just because him being murdered makes me feeeeeel good.”
You’re advocating death squad behavior.
STHU – no I’m not. In case you missed it, he was a cold blooded scumbag murderer. He deserved what he got.
No one deserves what he got. You have no idea of what you speak. Once you smell burning human, once you hear the screams. Then come say ANYONE deserved what he got. I’m off to get a drink. I’ll need one if I plan to sleep tonight.
John Wayne Gacy got what he deserved, AFTER a fair trial.
That’s how are supposed to do things here in ‘Murrica.
Pwrserge, I’ve never heard the screams, but I do know that smell. On that short list that are like nothing else, and that you don’t forget.
So you want everyone to react to their own emotions, just like you and the disarmament crowd…
What due process was avoided? Cops used a threat of force. Dumbo choose to die rather than be captured. He most likely ate lead when he saw the first flames. You act like he was some political prisoner that got torched in a cage. What happened was his choice.
Do tell cite the minutes of his trial.
LAPD solution if we want you we will kill you. Any one who is not a liberal fascist should worry a bit.
As for this scum bag good riddance to a murder.
So, John Q. Public offs a BG in the act, “Eff yeah! Party! Thanks for removing a burden to the tax payers!” But a cop returns fire and we’re living in soviet russia?
Only if they deliberately BURN A MAN ALIVE. If they shot him, it’s one thing. This is just sick.
You really think this guy burned alive? I guess that would explain the disgust. This guy was armed and a lone shot was herd as the fire broke out. This guy plugged himself rather than be captured. He choose death over due process. HIS CHOICE, and good riddance.
Thank you…another voice of reason.
Could I claim self-defense if the perp ran away from me, barricaded himself in a house, and then I set it on fire and burnt him to death?
No.
Next time I have an encounter with Johnny Law, I’ll just run away. Since under your logic, they aren’t allowed to follow me. This is great news!
As long as we’re making absurd extensions of logic, the alternative would be instead of walking up to someone’s car when you pull them over for speeding, throw a Molotov cocktail at their car.
Since, you know, traffic stops are the most dangerous thing cops typically have to do and all.
Again NO!
Disarming the cops is the first step on a safer America.
OK THEN
Who votes that murdering a young woman, in cold blood, was totaly justified?
No, Realy,,, you want behind the BBAC Wheel? Whyn ot!
Robert Gibbs does for one.
“I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well being of their children.”
So…it’s ok to kill people’s children and the children’s friends if you have a grudge? Hope no one at work gets mad at you.
Cue conspiracy theories… unless they get a dental records match.
Which even then, probably won’t make people believe that Dorner was in there.
Ignorance is unusually high in these comments.
(Most) Everyone seems to know exactly what happened, when it happened, and who it happened to, and from.
I don’t think any of us really know any more than what we have been told, and like other recent events, the facts seems to change back and forth with each newscast and source.
I can see with my own eyes what the LAPD did to several innocent citizens and their personal property in their haste to assassinate Dorner.
And I can hear with my own ears they decided to purposely burn the cabin down with the suspect in the cabin.
Very few facts are available at this time, and most of the facts that are available do not look good for the LAPD.
I’m with you. Waiting for more info on what happened and the timeline.
CNN: charred remains found
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/12/police-checking-reports-that-ex-lapd-officer-dorner-sighted/?hpt=hp_t1
I dunno why you’re all focused on Dorner. The bigger question is did the police capture the true murderer…the gun!
As we all know, it’s the gun that killed all those people, not Dorner.
The video of the gunfight on CBS’s website sounds like they just opened up on him. Also you can see a swat officer throwing what looks like a smoke grenade or device at the cabin. Wonder if they will just say it was the smoke/cs that caught fire?
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50140947n
CBS also stops the video of the above feed before this audio plays out. Or it seems like it. I think the audio/video feed on this story of theirs is the same feed.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50140903n
Well, I hope they get it all figured out. And it does seem as if the authorities were not looking to capture him. That is just what it looks like. Hopefully we will get the whole story out.
wow…sounds like you guys feel sorry for the injustice of this guy’s end. sad state
he literally declared war (and murder) on a bunch of guys with guns. what the F* do you THINK was going to happen? you don’t think it was “shoot on sight”?
he shot and killed 2 armed officers right before going into that cabin. tear gas goes in to a wooden structure and you claim it was WP that started the fire?
if any one of us was in the cops shoes, we’d have made the EXACT same comments.
this guy did what he wanted, and ended up pretty much the way he wanted. don’t have any sadness for him, nor contempt for those cops.
if you want to feel contempt, show it for the a**bags that shot up the paper girls – those f*ckers should be publicly caned just before they’re handed their pink slips.
and farago, SHAME ON YOU for calling this a “waco” situation. not even close. you just spit on the graves of the children murdered there.
Just guessing, but my impression is that the general opinion of BATrbF around here is so low that most readers think Waco was mostly incompetence.
What was heard on the police scanners (and I’m quite certain there are recordings, which will appear on youtube and liveleak eventually) clearly indicates that setting fire to the structure Dorner was in was deliberate.
As a general rule, I consider active malice to be worse than tragedy resulting from heavy-handed incompetence.
So these might be the kindest words posted here about BATF: they’re not as bad as LAPD.
in theory i agree. however, this is not some “mistake” from incompetence and CERTAINLY did not include innocent actors.
and, the cops were receiving incoming fire (and casualties) from an “assault weapon”.
dorner had a choice, and he made it/reinforced/communicated it several times through his actions.
while it might not have been the “best” way to handle the situation, this is one where it’s not only okay but also entirely understandable.
again, entirely UNLIKE the paper carriers (and waco).
You’re right comparing this to Waco is drastic. However, the cops crossed a line. They had no pressing reason to storm that house. They did so anyway. A man burned alive because the didn’t follow protocol. (Which is to disengage and deescolate when civilians are not actively threatened.) I want the badge of whomever pulled that stunt. I also want to see the badged thugs who shot up innocent people in jail. Doing hard time. 10-20 minimum.
I don’t feel the least bit sorry for Dorner. What I do feel sorry about is that we are fine with LEOs serving as judge, jury and executioners of American Citizens.
Back in 1776 a bunch of liberal do gooders decided that they didn’t like being subjects of the Crown. They decided that they had rights endowed by their Creator. They believed in those rights enough to go to war with the most powerful nation on earth.
Among the rights they fought for was that no American could be denied his property, his liberty or his life without due process.
Who gets to decide what crimes deserve due process and which don’t? We’re fine that they decided to kill Dorner (and judging by the way the LAPD shot up two pick up trucks that sort of looked like his, they were out to kill him, not arrest him). Are you fine if we decide its OK to kill rapists and child molesters? How about bank robbers? How about white collar crimes, Berny Maddoff ruined a lot of lives? Where do we draw the line at extra-judicial killings?
What seperates us from third world anarchy is the Constitution. Sometimes it’s a pain in the ass. It does keep death squads from roaming the streets like they did in El Salvador in the 80’s and Egypt today.
we’re a LONG way from el salvador (and modern mexico). and that’s why we’ll keep our arms – through force if necessary.
your points are well stated, and in theory, correct. however, as an LTC, i assume you know first hand what happens to plans and theories when subjected to battle.
i think it’s unreasonable to expect that this would’ve ended any other way.
now if dorner had surrendered and they STILL blasted him, that’d be a whole ‘nother story…
Did they make sure no one else was in that cabin?
What if he had hostages?
Point is they wanted blood and they got it, and that is wrong. You can’t have two set of rules, one for LEO’s and one for us common folk. If a citizen or a group of citizens had intentionally set the fire like the video suggest the police did they would be arrested and prosecuted.
why aren’t you as outraged over the NYPD gunning down an assasin in downtown NYC – and managing to take out a few bystanders along the way?
i AGREE with you, but i think it’s unreasonable to expect a different outcome under the circumstances.
not their finest hour, and yes, they got their pound of (charred) flesh…
but there are MANY better instances to be outraged over (did i mention the paper carriers recently?).
Due process. A thing of the past. Farago’s point is just that.
+1 exactly, now i wonder if burning people who need to answer for crime falls under the “common sense” proposals we heard last night.
How many of you were watching the live feeds of this event, and remember the reporters stating repeatedly, that it was possible Dorner set the fire?
Its also pretty easy to see from the comments who in this thread is a cop.
I have no sympathy for Dorner. The man killed his defense attorney’s daughter and her fiance. He killed two cops. He deserved to die, but he deserved to die by lethal injection, after a trial by his peers.
This is…or maybe used to be…America. We now have a President who has publicly declared that he can decide to execute an American citizen (and his 16 year old son) on his own, without any of the protections of the 5th Ammendment.
We have militarized our police departments to the point that except for the uniforms (and body mass index) you couldn’t tell that 40 man SWAT team from a light infantry platoon.
It bothers me, not that Dorner died, but that the police never even pretented to want to capture him. We now live in a world were a police officer, who just like me took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic, feels comfortable saying “burn that mother f’er down” on a police band that every reporter in the world is listening to. We have a tame press that won’t even report on it. It took a nut (who is looking more sane every day) like Alex Jones to break this story. The MSM ignored the two pick up trucks shot up without warning.
My own alma matter, the United States Military Academy, released a white paper saying that people like me, who believe in strict adherance to the United States Constitution, who believe in individual rights take precedence over federal law, are a threat. Combine that with the fact that I own guns, what some would consider a lot of guns, the UPS guy knows that I have a lot of ammunition, and yes, I fly an American Flag, a Gadsen Flag and a Gonzales Flag from my house. What is to stop our militarized police, or any of the federal LEOs from deciding its to dangerous to knock on my door when I refuse to register my guns, and decide it is safer for all LEOs concerned to just “burn that mother f’er down.”
Don’t take this as an anti cop manifesto. I was a Reserve Deputy Sherriff. My father was the chairman of my home town’s police personell board. My God Father is a retired cop. My next door neighbor is a Texas Ranger. My best friend is an FBI agent. I trust and respect the vast majority of LEOs.
I have never been more worried for the future of this country than I am now. If you can summarily execute a Chris Dorner, a man who should have died by lethal injection, where do you draw the line? Who gets to decide who should be arrested and who should be executed?
+1
“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” – Friedrich Nietzsche
So what do we do about it Colonel F?
That’s the problem. I don’t know. It’s like the frog in the pot. (Stick a frog in a pot of boiling water, he jumps out. Stick a frog in a pot of cold water and turn the burner on, he doesn’t jump out because by the time he realizes the water is boiling it’s too late.) We’ve become that way. Slowly but surely we’ve let governments, federal, state and local take away our rights. We figured no big deal, if I’m not doing anything wrong it doesn’t effect me.
It’s going to take a brave lawyer to take a case like this to the Supreme Court. I hate Nazis as much as the next guy, but I admire the ACLU for fighting for the rights of Nazis to march in Skoki. If Nazis can’t march today, whats to stop them from saying the Tea Party can’t march tommorow.
At a minimum, every officer who discharged his weapon at the pick up truck with a 74 and 47 year old hispanic woman in it should be fired and charged with attempted murder. The Chief of the LAPD should be fired for failing to control his department.
It starts at the top. We need to vote out politicians with no respect for the Bill of Rights, we need to fire top law enforcement officials who violate them.
I won’t hold my breath.
Technically the Nazis never marched in Skokie. Chicago gave in and let them march why they originally wanted to.
Personally I vote for vigilante action.
Police radio traffic from the incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24WJr4Ye8xY
“We’re going to go ahead with the plan with the burner”
“Seven of the burners are deployed and we have a fire”
Well, the truth is, he just killed one of their buddies and shot up another. He was firing at them from the cabin. Would you make an attempt at an entry? I think the response was a good one. If he anted to come out with his hands up and surrender he could have. Not sure how well that would have ended up for him, but the choice to stay in the building and die by fire was not only his choice to make but one that was brought on by him along. Looks like he shot himself anyway.
Of course not. He wasn’t going anywhere. Fall back to cover, establish a perimeter, turn off the water, and wait him out. Y’know, like they do with people who only murder civilians.
Then a good course of action would be to NOT kill the ones who will someday be in a position to make such decisions. 🙂
Sad as it seems, stick to civilians if you don’t like the way we play. But, I’m guessing he already read the play book.
Disgusting.
LEO’s ARE civilians, not military. We’re both citizens. There is no politician in the US with the power to legitimately approve a policy by which a shooter of a policeman would receive less chance at a trial than the shooter of a non-cop citizen. Indeed, what if citizens took a similar attitude towards LEO’s who made “bad shoots” of non-LEO’s? Would that make sense to you if that “was the way we play”?
Your comments just confirm what many here suspect- summary “justice” (read execution/assassination) of “civilians” who kill cops is the expected outcome of these situations. Disgusting and depraved. You and all who think like you are a disgrace. When you try to apply these techniques in the coming gun confiscation, things may not turn out the way you envision.
Of course it’s terrible that he did that, but they’re supposed to be police officers and professionals. I understand why they wanted to get revenge but it doesn’t make this right.
You and I both know that the gang members you encounter from time to time behave this same way. They seek revenge on their enemies when a wrong has been done to them. Should we throw aside the law, morality and act like savages too just because it makes us feel good?
How much is this fiasco going to cost the tax payers of CA?
– Incoming lawsuits from the blue Toyota incident, prob from multiple sources on that street alone.
– Now they’ve burned down someone’s house for 1 guy. Where we’re all the non-lethal alternatives I’ve seen on TV specials for years now?
– Overtime and resource costs for a statewide manhunt have to be in the millions.
Not to mention this whole thing makes the CA police like like a gang of thugs doing an execution, pathetic. Is this who we turn to for protection?
You forgot
-24/7 protection for 50+ people and their families on Dorners list.
-Law suit from the black Honda incident
good point, I hadn’t heard about the black honda, got a link?
Apparently, the media recorded the ATF blasting music into the WACO compound (for psychological warfare reasons) before the last fatal day. One of the songs they played was that old rock song with the lyrics “you’re gonna burn”. Weird.
I don’t know about y’all, but I don’t want to be camped out within the defective range of a .50 BMG. If Dorner did not have access to such a weapon, and “only” had an AR-15, I still would not feel safe within 300 yard of that cabin. The fact that Dorner had successfully murdered other police officers definitely weighed into that equation. If Dorner shot a SWAT officer at 800 yards with a .50 cal, than we’d be looking at another police officer death, and even more gun hysteria.
I’m not defending the previous two mistaken – identity shootings, and I am not saying that this shooting should not be thoroughly investigated. I disagree that these officers had the benefit of time if Dorner did have a .50, .416, .338, etc. If you are willing to “camp out” within the effective range of those weapons systems, with someone who has the willingness to use them, AND has killed several police officers wearing body armor, then you are a man more brave than me.
Yes, the cops were yelling “burn that motherfvcker,” but they were probably more than a little upset that people they know had been shot by their suspect. Perhaps Dorner had the chance to give himself up, and perhaps be did not.
This was an ugly situation, much of which was created by Dorner himself and his murderous rampage. Perhaps Dorner’s rage at LAPD was legitimate, but murder is not. I’m not defending the LAPD or the SO necessarily, but I disagree about staying outside the cabin in a stationary position for extended period of time, particularly inside the effective range of a .50 BMG.
Accur81, you are saying that burning someone alive is just fine ‘cuz officer safety.
I think you know this is wrong and are trying to justify it to yourself with the .50 BMG nonsense.
You’re better than that. Revenge is not a legal excuse to incinerate someone.
This idea that it’s okay to abandon law and morality, to become monsters, in order to get revenge on a monster is so damn dangerous and it’s disheartening especially since so many of you guys, our supposed protectors, are advocating it.
Did Dorner deserve to die? Yeah, but that’s not for you to decide. If he goes down because you’re protecting yourself, fine. That’s legitimate. But once he’s barricaded in a home and you set fire to it in order “burn that mother****er” you are no longer acting in self-defense. Murder is murder.
watch out now michael b, you might get Accur81 and rest on your front law with torches.
If available, I would likely have brought in a bomb robot with a phone to negotiate. Again, I was not actually present. None of us were. But I have seen what a .50 cal can do, and Dorner has obviously murdered several people, including police officers. Damn right that is a safety concern. Waiting around may very likely have resulted in the death or injury of additional people. This whole incident had safety concerns on all sides, police included.
A legitimate criticism is when a better alternative has not been explored. I would probably have attempted to negotiate surrender via a bomb robot and phone. Otherwise, I would have been lobbing smoke and CS as well. I’ve been on the receiving end of that. I’ve also walked through fire created by smoke and tracers, and I’m not Jason Bourne. Based upon Dorner’s reported actions, it is unlikely that he would have surrendered.
We deserve to know these options, and justice for the mistaken shootings. If you want to hear recordings of police swearing, I’ve got plenty of those.
I have “waited out” non violent felons, and felons who were not particularly well armed. I got a case of poison oak chasing a carjacking suspect through heavy brush that required an ER trip. He was allegedly armed with a knife and / or handgun. You don’t necessarily know what the bad guy is packing. We eventually got that guy via taser and K9.
This guy, however, seemed to be doing a whole lot of indiscriminate shooting, and had nothing left to lose. That doesn’t generally fit the wait and see criteria. Yet I’m critiquing this from afar, as is everyone else.
We absolutely deserve to know the truth, but I will not make a rushed and emotional judgement. I advise others to do the same.
Everyone is assuming that they were not taking fire from the cabin, an assumption for which i have seen no evidence and, given his history, absolutely no reason to believe that they were not.
I don’t understand why anyone who knows they are dealing with one of the most high profile events we are likely to see nationwide for the entire decade, knows they are using an unencrypted radio where citizens and media are easily able to listen in on transmissions, would then broadcast anything using the word “burners,” the phrase “like we talked about” in relation to anything called burners when there’s a chance something might catch fire, or anything even approaching “burn this (expletive deleted) house down.”
I’m not trying to advocate any kind of conspiracy theory. I’m just saying it’s an incredibly stupid thing to say in the clear. And if true, which some of the readers here apparently heard themselves, then it’s likely going to cause some city or county to pay dearly in court.
Which is one of the primary reasons departments are switching to digital transmitters – especially the newer ones that are pretty much unscannable without the algo.
Back in the old days before everyone got themselves an analog scanner, police airwaves were the bastion of obscenity and racism that nobody believed – until all of a sudden it started showing up on tape. Now, all the good dirt is done over digital cellphone, but you can’t count on those in a tactical scenario.
I’ve been thinking about the legality of using fire to get this guy out of the house. First I think that we would all agree that setting fire to an occupied building is lethal force. Secondly that puts it on the same level as shooting at the suspect. Police are allowed to shoot at a fleeing suspect who they can articulate is a threat to the public at large. Murdering four people, attempted murder, burglary, and kidnapping definitely constitutes danger to the public. Ok so, if the cops had been shooting into the cabin and killed him then most people would have been fine with that. What is the difference between using one type of deadly force or another? Police are told they can use their cars as deadly force if they have to. Once the fire was started, all he had to do was come out with his hands up.
The issue is that if he’s not fleeing or actively shooting, ir even brandishing a weapon, there is an expectation that police will attempt to arrest him so that he can be tried for his crimes. Part of due process of law before any sentence is carried out.
What we don’t know is what, if anything, he was doing in the minutes leading up to the fire. That could make a huge difference.
That Dorner guy was not going to be taken into custody, peacefully or otherwise. The only way he was going to taken in was in the back of a meat wagon. It was his call. He wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, and he got his wish.
I get pissed off at cops when they abuse innocent people, which they do all too often. When they take down an actual bad guy once or twice every century, I’m fine with that.
Smokey was behind the tape for his own safety.
Smoke Grenades and Tear Gas have been known to cause fires.
If the fire was set, Someone needs charged with use of excessive force.
And the Firing of Dorner needs to be microscoped.
Usually an unknown danger is more hazardous to an officer.
The disproportionate fear triggering excessive responses here is troubling
They had him surrounded, set perimeter, get comfy and set your sensors and wait.
To Arrest means to bring before a magistrate to answer charges.
Vengeance and Retribution should never be in a Peace Officer’s lexicon.
He dies, he’s branded a nut case, and the story goes away. He stands trial, the case and his claims get endless air time.
Comments are closed.