Physician errors and negligence kill about seven times more Americans every year than do firearms (not to mention that two-thirds of gun deaths are self-inflicted). And yet the big doctor groups are very vocal about the “public health crisis” posed by civilian gun ownership.
Where are the high profile campaigns, studies and press releases by the AMA and AAP shining a light on the much more serious threat posed to our health by their own members?
It is not surprising that a “study” which utilizes data from the Brady Campaign is going to completely ignore the positive benefits of firearms.
Not only that, the study (conveniently) ignored the fact that doctor’s negligence results in far more deaths of innocent people than guns.
The number is so high — more than 250,000 deaths — you can conclude that doctors negligently kill Americans seven times as often as guns do.
These medical mistakes range from operating on the wrong person or the wrong part of the body, to giving mistaken dosages or leaving surgical instruments inside of patients.
Reports indicate that these deadly medical errors are the third leading cause of death in America. But the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn’t want to talk about that.
Perhaps the real lesson from this medical study should be: “physician, heal thyself.”
– Erich Pratt and Michael Hammond in The Facts Are In, And Doctors Are More Likely To Kill You Than A Gun
not to mention an additional 600,000+ per year by abortions…also medical procedures…just sayin’…
Yes, I wonder where the American Academy of Pediatrics stands on Planned Parenthood. (crickets)
You got that right. The AAP’s number 1 stated priority is remove vaccine exemptions for school kids. Trade organization doing what trade organizations do….look out for their members profit margins.
I dunno, vaccines also, you know, save lives.
That bumper sticker slogan needs some real science to back it up. Prove it. Literally.
Exactly. Forget vehicular accidents, alcohol/drugs, gun-related incidents, etc.
In America, the #1 killer is an inconvenienced mother. Thanks a lot, 1973 SCOTUS. I guess you Justices figured out somehow in your back room discussions that the Founders didn’t really intend to put the word “Life” as the very first protection in the line “…endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
Sorry, little ones. If Momma thinks you’re simply an “oopsie”, no life, liberty, or any happiness for you.
In the court’s defense, Justice Blackmun said in his majority decision that ‘if the humanity of the fetus could be scientifically established it would void their decision’. Now how the humanity of the fetus hadn’t been scientifically established by 1973 (no human has ever given birth to a possum, e.g.) would be a good question, but the real problem isn’t Roe v Wade but the widespread denial of science by the left to push a pernicious identity politics agenda. Their whole ‘war on women’ meme would crumble if they admitted that human fetuses are human.
Pol Pot would be proud.
“Now how the humanity of the fetus hadn’t been scientifically established by 1973 (no human has ever given birth to a possum, e.g.)”
Oh, dear.
Possum’s mom is not gonna like hearing that. (On the other hand, she’s probably roadkill by now… *snicker* 😉 )
In my city, we’d keep abortion to the Dark People, the Coloreds – they’re animals anyway, so let them lose their souls.
Guns don’t kill anyone. A firearm is an inantiment object. Please stop using the language of the anti-gun left, because you are falling into their trap when you do!
Those two docs in the pic sure don’t look like any I’ve ever met. Man is groomed with a fashionable haircut, and the woman looks like she took the time to apply makeup.
Medical staff run ragged schedules and don’t have time for such luxuries.
Vastly-inflated numbers aren’t just for those promoting an “epidemic of gun violence”.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s-2019-edition/?fbclid=IwAR19QTy9n9x6LN2KJWOzaQcLLaetPw2nMuuBbHhsiLyTCad8Zob3RT7AmII
Interesting article reference.
The study indicates that only ~5000 deaths are directly attributable to “misadventure” of the doctors/surgeons, but ~100,000 deaths display “misadventure” as a helper (contributor). That number alone is sufficient to conclude that medical care (all sources) results in ONLY three times the number of deaths by gunshot.
The gross numbers of deaths due to medical treatment can possibly be logically reduced from 400,000 to 100,000. But the 100,000 number remains a horror story. Why would any medical professional want to herald that 5000 deaths can be directly pointed to medical care, while ONLY 100,000 can be determined to show medical care was ONLY a contributing factor?
When it comes to causes of death, the absolutely irrefutable leading cause of death is being alive. Or is life only a contributing cause?
BTW, Samuel Clemons was correct to ascribe statistics as the third category of lies.
So, if the author of the paper you cite is correct, only about 120,000 deaths per year are the result of, or a contributory result of, “adverse effects of medical treatment.” Combining that with the actual count of about 950,000 practicing physicians, yields a striking result. One in eight doctors kill someone, or significantly contribute to the death of someone, EVERY year. Or, in other words, – on average every doctor kills someone they are supposed to be helping every eight years!
OTOH = There are about 100,000,000 legal firearm owners and the total of all murders committed by someone using a firearm is under 10,000 (I am rounding UP). Disregard for the moment that most of those murders are committed by someone who is NOT legally in possession of a firearm. That means that, at most, one in TEN-THOUSAND legal firearm owners kills someone with a weapon. That works out to legal firearm owners killing someone less than 0.0001% of the time. The direct comparison is that a firearm owner would have to live 10,000 years AND kill someone to meet the standard of “average” while a doctor will kill 5 people in an “average” 40 year career!
Somehow, I don’t think the author you cited is even aware that he did NOT help his case!
Author appears to be merely trying to get an accurate number, not push any particular agenda or compare to numbers of deaths in which use of a firearm was a factor.
Seeing how often inflated, misleading, inaccuratevnumbers are used and reused by those advancing gun restrictions, one should take care that cited numbers are reasonably accurate, not just the same numbers that people have been reporting and re-reporting. Validating the practice of lazily rehashing numbers without any attempt at verification tends to validate such mis-use.
“Seeing how often inflated, misleading, inaccuratevnumbers are used and reused…”
Anti-gunners always have an agenda. That said….
The underlying data points for recording medical procedures are called “CPT” codes, and/or “ICD” codes (I do not remember the underlying terms). While there is probably much standardization, physicians determine which codes will be used for what. Research using these data points cannot possibly know, or adjust for rationalization/standardization. The differences of code choice physicians may not be statistically significant, there is no reliable way to make such determination. Thus, “data” is not pristine, which does result in building castles upon sand.
But regardless of the “professional” studies regarding the number of deaths associated with medical “misadventure”, the 500 pound gorilla remains the CDC. The “cause of death” information at CDC is the go-to source for “official” stats. For some reason, new “research” such as identified in the OP doesn’t seem to move the needle. So, I’ll stick with the standards most favored by ever “do gooder” program out there.
As someone in healthcare I can tell you that doctors are not the only ones involved in coding. Some doctors are very knowledgeable about it. Others could care less. Most of the dwindling independent practices have a couple of coders or contract with a coding company. Medical systems have have large coding departments and/or outside contracts that handle the coding.
Most things are coded not based on what it actually is or what was actually done, but based on which of several similar things will get the most reimbursement, and/or get the facility in the least trouble. It is extremely complex and a great example of how government interference messes everything up.
I would also point out that most medication administration and treatment is done not by doctors, but by nurses and allied health professionals. Doctors issue the orders, but other people carry them out. Often a doctor will ask the other people what they think. However many doctors are arrogant pricks and won’t ask or listen to others who know more than they do.
You know what the difference is between God and doctors? God doesn’t think he’s a doctor.
Don’t overlook the fact that doctors can bury their mistakes.
some might say they can bury their bull’s eyes.
Hospital’s are deathtraps…physician heal thyself. Yes I’ve been quizzed on gun ownership and metal er mental health. I assume it’ll get worse under Medicare…😫
Even worse at the VA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_1ruZWJigo
Great point about Medicare. Once we are all dependent upon it, the government can mandate you answer firearm ownership questions to get benefits. Then, think of the potential they will have with red flag actions.
DISCLAIMER: I receive no compensation for being paranoid. I am so of my own free will.
You are being paranoid. We really are out to get you.
I am on Medicare now. A few weeks ago, I visited a cardiologist’s office for the first time and pulled my IWB S&W 9mm off and locked it in the car – but I forgot to remove the Ruger LCP from my ankle holster. No big deal, right? During the exam, the woman doctor asked me to remove my shoes and socks. That is when I realized I was still carrying! Problem?
It lead to a discussion. She had several questions about the rules, how to get information, where to get training, even what kind of weapon would be best. I did NOT get the “guns are bad” treatment. But then I don’t live in or near ATL where all the loonie liberals live!
Great story! That is how we win. We get past the slander by honest interpersonal interaction.
My ankle holster rubs a bit toward the end of the day.
Best alternative I’ve found to carry in my practice though.
Long scrubs help.
I think a lot would depend upon which state you live in. Here in the Mid-West, many of those in the medical field probably have been exposed to hunting, with their fathers or others. Also, because of having been exposed to hunting and it’s benefits, ( tasty food on the table ) those same people are less inclined to condemn guns and hunting.
Not so, with many of those living in the large cities; who have never been exposed to the happiness of just being in the outdoors, whether you bag any game, or not.
Not counted in the above medical death numbers are those killed by properly prescribed medications that are not really safe, those for which the makers did not report ALL of their safety test results (Vioxx is one of many). Also, not counted, the suicides by people taking anti – depressants with a known contra-indication of suicidal ideation. As you can imagine, obtaining good information about these patterns is difficult. John Rappoport has done some real investigative journalism on these topics. Death by firearms, pales in comparison.
My children are adults now, but when they were young their pediatrician attempted to lecture me about firearms safety. I interrupted him. To paraphrase I said, “Doctor Jones, I’ve been a LEO and a law enforcement firearms instructor for over a decade now. Katherine got her first firearm for Christmas when she was six. John (who the Doc was examining at the time) got his last Christmas. I won’t tell you how to treat a patient if you don’t try to educate me about firearms.” He blushed as red as anyone I’ve ever seen and never broached the subject again.
This is my thought also. Who are you to teach me about firearms? Do you have years of extensive training? Do you have experience with firearms? What are your credentials?
Yes I know there are a lot of good, safe people out there with no formal training, but the people that usually lecture us on gun ownership, have no freaking clue.
How many people die or get maimed by vaccines?
We don’t know, Vlad. Why don’t you tell us?
Geoff/Guesty is such a leg humper that when I don’t actually post here, he uses my username. He’s either got a man-crush on me…or he’s a legit whack-job. I suspect he’s a whack-job.
I’ve never used your name, PG13. See no need to, due to your name’s recent toxicity. But I see that you’re still schizo-ing by posting under Pg2/pg2/Vlad, etc.
Geoff/guesty humping my leg.
How many people have died or been maimed by small pox, polio, measles, etc.?
Gov, I can point you to a lot of info in that area, but you will not like it. Dr. Suzanne Humphreys exposes a lot of the spin and myths about the eradication of small pox. Since this is a gun blog and we should keep it that way, you can find me on linkedIn. Just search for LifeSavor.
Thanks Gov. My dad was crippled by polio when was six. He never moved without crutches or a wheelchair since. He’s 90 now and in an extended care facility. Think he would have liked to have had chance at the Salk vaccine? I remember him beside me when I was a child and I got mine. Even then I wondered what he was thinking. pg2, you need to move to a third world country where you can be exposed some of these viruses and bacteria. See how you feel when you’re on death’s doorstep. Blood leaking from your eyes and shitting your guts out.
I didn’t make this post, this is Geoff/guesty who has been using my username. Sorry to hear about your dad, for real, but remember much of what was called polio back then wasn’t polio. They changed the diagnosis criteria after the vaccine was released, and they didn’t use lab conformation until after the vaccine was released.
You’re falling for Geoff/Guesty leg humping my username. The dude has some serious mental issues. That’s not my post. At the same time, vaccines did not eradicate smallpox or polio.
Wow….Geoff, aka, Guesty using my username? Get help for real. Missed this article but Geoff/guesty is at least asking the right questions….😂
No, it’s certainly not me using your name, but it looks like someone else is having fun with it. I’ll break out the popcorn and watch you two (whoever that is) go at it…
Luv it. Someone’s pulling your chain, and we all get to watch the show.
Literally laughing Geoff. Get help.
Please don’t get me started with Doctors and deaths. My mom was a victim of a doctors less then skillful use of a tool.
Yes doctors kill more then almost any group.
Why do you think they call their work a Practice??
They don’t quite have it right yet??
Or never will.
I received a flu shot in 2001within hours I told my wife i thought I was going to die story short I still suffer from side effects I was told by a physician who also got the shot in another state it either killed you outright or left you permanently disabled
I stopped getting flu shots 25 years ago. Somehow, I’m still alive, despite the push from all corners every year for me to get them (for a conveniently low price, of course).
**** inserts the word “guns” here to avoid blame from TTAG of being off topic ****
My Dad got the pneumonia vaccine. Two weeks later he was in the hospital for pneumonia.
My brother got the pneumonia vaccine. Two weeks later he was in the hospital for pneumonia.
Both were advised to get that vaccine because they were taking meds that weakened their immune systems.
Had they not taken the vaccines they would likely NOT have been exposed to streploccus pneumoniae since both were homebound. They would not have ended up in the hospital. They would not have had to be bombarded with antibiotics that further degraded their immune systems.
My point: with firearms, we are all trained in safety, and we practice the utmost discipline for the safety of others. Much of modern medicine, however, is about protecting the practitioner and the business, about protecting profits and using patients to generate more profits. Dr. Suzanne Humphreys exposes a lot of this in her books.
As for me and my family, we have an extensive collection of natural meds and only use the docs when absolutely necessary. And, even though I work from home, my holster goes on my belt when I get dressed in the morning, every morning.
Her book is excellent, as JB Handleys “How to End the Autism Epidemic”. Both well referenced and cited with the current peer reviewed research. There is no proof childhood vaccines are safe. But don’t try convincing the dupes here. They’ll scream for gun rights and seconds later scream for the government to remove your medical freedom.
So I agree that medical mistakes probably do kill lots of people. More than people killing people using a gun? Don’t know, there’s way too much bad studies badly done, wild exaggeration of political spinologists and a whole lot of and gleeful bullshit going with the claim to make much sense out of it.
That’s the problem. How do you even talk about an issue when so much crap has been spewed and constantly spun up that if any real facts do exist, they are concealed within the total crap-storm?
Both modern medical care and firearms have been of enormous benefit to society. I know I can walk because of a doctor who fought with an insurance company to get me the right sort of bipedal reconstructive repair services, so to speak.
But if a doctor ever hurts me out of incompetence the odds are good I am going to sue his ass. That is, if I ain’t actually dead. Hasn’t happened, so, just fair notice, that’s all.
And if somebody breaks into my home in the middle of the night to steal my stuff and threaten my life, I’m going to react in a loud, bullet and buckshot launching manner towards that rude behavior.
Enuf, check out the research into the medical and pharma industries by journalist John Rappoport.
Agree, there are wonderful physicians, nurses, dentists, therapists, chiropractors, and naturopaths out there. Unfortunately, the corruption in those industries is rampant. I am not aware of any ammo manufacturer deliberately selling defective products. But the list of pharmaceuticals that have been marketed with know, hidden defects is extensive. Remember Vioxx? Fen Fen?
You’re banging your head against a wall here. Place is loaded with both human trolls, troll-bot profiles, and frightened hypocrites who beg for 2A protection while they jump on every other government overreach bandwagon that removes individual rights.
We all need to be aware that the healthcare industry comprises 40% to 60% of advertising spending across all media in this country. That means they control the information you receive through those media. Do you ever hear anything through the mainstream media about the lawsuit one of the largest pharma companies is fighting because their mumps vaccine is allegedly seriously defective? This is huge but even the financial news is not covering the potential impact to investors. Just one example of many. How many people know about the asbestos in talc investigation?
The firearms community is under constant assault in the press, but you almost never hear about the sins of the medical industry. They do not make mistakes? There is no corruption? Or does that industry use its clout to suppress the news?
We got much better information when beverage companies could advertise wine and liquor on TV and pharma companies could not push their drugs directly to the public.
As in all professions some doctors are better than others. Yes, I can agree that medical negligence is a problem but it is one that can be avoided by common sense – the 2 words that Jethro’s love to toss around. Referrals (by friend or another professional) are one way of avoiding a misguided or negligent doctor. Another way is to just make an appointment and “feel out” the doctor then decide is he/she is the right one for you. I guess it’s like trying on shoes. Really, how hard can it be?
Only a doctor is able to determine life or death – but on a calculated, scientific scale – unlike guns which take lives everyday in this country and are absolute and non-discriminate. Guns do not do preventive maintenance. Guns just kill. This is why they must be eliminated from our society. A socialist state can and will do that.
Of all the socialist candidates on the Democratic ticket, Kamala Harris fits the bill for an unprecedented revolution in America. She is a beautiful and a savvy, intelligent policy maker. With the backing of other Social Democrats in what is to be a majority in the Senate and Congress in 2021 she will push through many limitations on gun ownership in America. The 2nd Amendment will continue to be hammered until at last it ceases to exist. Then, a national ban on guns can be instituted.
Hillbillies need not fear a socialist state. All your needs will be taken care of. Education, Medicine, Transportation, Housing, and of course money. A socialist state will provide for all – equally and without prejudice. The old west days are fast coming to a close. Technology will prevail over ignorance and the truth will prevail. Give them up now. It will be better for you and your family in the long term.
President Kamel Tow Harris will lead us in chanting the socialist democrat battle cry, MAVA! MAVA! MAVA! Make America Venezuela Again! I have a dream, a vision of Americans starving to death, protestors being run over by armored cars and thousands of refugees sneaking across the border into Mexico!
That is Kamala Harris. Sorry for the spelling error. I got my finger stuck in my nose and the doctor can’t get it out. Typing is really hard because my other hand is all sticky from…..er, eating Cheezy Puffs.
Ugh. This argument is tired and an entirely invalid comparison.
Tinkering around with the most complex biomechanical machine we know of, one that really isn’t even standardized and which we don’t really understand, has a statistically notable margin for lethal error? Color me fucking shocked.
The comparison is totally valid. Stop tinkering with the machine – if it saves just one life, it is worth it.
By that logic all medical, and in fact all technological progress should cease.
And no, still not a valid comparison for a wide variety of reasons.
I don’t think this is the right tact in dealing with anti-gunners. First, facts, statistics, or redirecting to abortion/anti-abortion or vacation/anti-vax or things that are worse is not productive.
Perhaps instead we ask whether they are concerned about all suicides, all gang-bang killings, rape, drownings etc. if their focus is truly “saving lives for the children” then ask why they don’t care about those deaths? After all, it is about the feelings, no? Let them figure out how hypocritical they are rather than both sides ostracizing different groups for pleasure. Remind them that you would rather the number of firearm related homicides were lower, we just disagree about the way to reduce that number.
That demonstrates compassion, rather than hate or contempt.
Otherwise, the divide gets bigger and CW2.0 will be 10 sided with everyone losing.
We think that medical malpractice deaths are attributable to complex medical procedures gone wrong. Of course, some are. But many patients are maimed or killed every year because medical workers are simply too damn lazy or negligent to wash their fvcking hands.
And then they have the b@lls to lecture us.
As a medical doctor (pediatrics and ER), I feel no compelling need to wade into the debate about medical mistakes. I will say though that here in rural America, many of us are gun owners and shooters, and it’ll be a cold day in hell before I treat gun ownership like an illness. I’ve heard many of my peers say the same. You’d be surprised how little we feel like the big organizations (AMA, AAP, etc.) speak for us on a great many things.
You are completely right, reddirtdoc; just as the Unions ” speak ” for how their membership feel. Bullshit
Actually I think of my gun ownership as an addiction, so it is a medical condition… but I can quit anytime I want to… once I finish my collection.
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When did this whole public health argument about gun violence begin anyway? I know it was a thing by the early 1990’s.
It never occurred to me to associate crime with public health. I thought public health was for stuff like diseases, not malicious acts by humans.
A drive-by shooting does not seem to have anything more to do with public health than Bernie Madoff’s fraud, or Vinson Filyaw’s kidnapping and repeated rapes.
“It never occurred to me to associate crime with public health. I thought public health was for stuff like diseases, not malicious acts by humans.”
The underlying premise is that humans are born perfect, and infected with criminal/evil intent by interaction with other humans, who, though also born perfect, were infected by other perfect individuals to do anti-social things. Infection is a disease, which can be treated by proper care and compassion of those in society who are immune to the disease (though one wonders where the original infection incubated among perfect humans).
Disease is random, attacking without regard to persons or circumstances; humans are not individually responsible for becoming diseased. Since disease can eventually, left untreated, harm the entire society, it must be treated as a public matter, rather than one of individual choice.
Congratulations….Substitute the word disease for gun violence, and you’ve exposed yourself as a hard leftist. It’s this kind of ignorance and egregious hypocrisy that guarantees we lose our rights in the long run.
“Congratulations….Substitute the word disease for gun violence, and you’ve exposed yourself as a hard leftist. It’s this kind of ignorance and egregious hypocrisy that guarantees we lose our rights in the long run.”
@Pg2 (whichever one)
If I may be so bold….
First, learn to read.
Second, learn to comprehend what you are reading.
Third, if both of the above are achieved, then give thought to learning to analyze what you read.
Fourth, just as a hint, explaining something is neither necessarily an endorsement, nor a critique.
This is the real pg2, not the leg humping geoff/guesty multi-profile using troll. What part of my post didn’t you understand? Sounds like you need a crash course in reading comprehension.
Didn’t we just have Dan telling us that ttag was going to eliminate the unneeded abortion and vaccine discussions?
As a matter of fact, we did! I, for one, am getting mighty tired of having to wade through all this petty bickering and vaccine bullshit in order to read comments containing even some relevance to guns… It’s rapidly becoming unworthy of my time to read and/or post here any longer.
Come on, Dan and staff – at least live up to the standards you claim to uphold. Zap this off-topic shit from your pages quickly, before this site loses all of its attraction. My patience with the trolls here is wearing very thin, especially considering the fact that it was allegedly not going to be tolerated going forward.
Nowadays, Hospitals are using the online payment method that helps patients to pay their bills on time. https://www.quickpayportal.online/
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