Lawfare: a form of asymmetric warfare involving the use of the legal system with the intention of damaging an opponent, winning a public relations victory, or financially crippling an opponent.
Examples: See Brady Campaign suits against Cabela’s, Lucky Gunner and ARMSLIST here and here, not to mention a slew of suits against gun and accessory makers. Note that Brady has been defeated at almost every turn (in the courts so far) thanks to the protection provided under the PLCAA. But defending against the suits drains the companies of significant amounts of resources including cash.
Michael Bloomberg’s Everytown civilian disarmament operation has been a little less active than Brady, though they did manage to drive Jimenez Arms into bankruptcy. Now Everytown’s taking a shot at online seller Lucky Gunner.
A difference in this case is that the buyer was under age, though what if anything he may have done to deceive Lucky Gunner isn’t yet clear. That will no doubt be revealed in the discovery process.
From the Associated Press . . .
A teenager accused of fatally shooting 10 people at a Texas high school in 2018 was able to buy more than 100 rounds of ammunition online because his age was not verified, according to a lawsuit alleging that the website involved broke federal law.
Dimitrios Pagourtzis was a 17-year-old junior at the time of the May 2018 shooting at Santa Fe High School. Federal law prohibits minors from purchasing handgun ammunition, and bars licensed gun companies from selling handgun or shotgun ammunition to minors or anyone they have reason to believe is under the age of 21.
According to an amended lawsuit filed Thursday, Pagourtzis initially ordered 50 rounds of hollow-point handgun ammunition and 105 rounds of 12-gauge shotgun ammunition, the Houston Chronicle reported. Two weeks later, he purchased an additional 35 rounds of shotgun ammunition — both times from the website Luckygunner.com that did not require him to make an account, submit proof of age or set-up a secure two-step authorization, the filing said.
Among those killed at the school was a Pakistani exchange student whose parents filed the amended petition. It’s part of a lawsuit filed against the suspect’s parents, Rose Marie Kosmetatos and Antonios Pagourtzis, alleging they knew their son was exhibiting extreme behavior and yet failed to prevent him from accessing their firearms, which authorities believe were used in the shooting.
Luckygunner.com, along with its owners, Red Stag, have been listed as additional defendants in the amended lawsuit, which claims Red Stag mailed the ammunition via FedEx without requiring an adult to sign for the package. Neither Luckygunner.com nor Red Stag responded to requests from the Houston Chronicle for comment.
Everytown Law, the legal arm for Everytown for Gun Safety Support Fund, a nationwide group, filed the petition on behalf of Abdul Aziz Sheikh and Farah Naz, the parents of Sabika Sheikh, who arrived as an exchange student last August.
In a statement, Sheikh’s parents said they are committed to fighting for accountability and for a safer future.
“People need to know just how easy it was for the shooter to buy ammunition from a website that failed to take even basic steps to protect the public,” the statement said.
Pagourtzis was charged with capital murder and faces life in prison. He is being held at a maximum-security mental health facility.
UPDATE: Lucky Gunner has issued the following statement:
Our hearts go out to the families and victims affected by the tragedy in Santa Fe. We recently learned of a related lawsuit against us in which Michael Bloomberg-backed Everytown
claims to be representing a plaintiff. Contrary to the claims, our company complied with all laws in making the subject sale; the suspect committed many crimes to include deliberately misrepresenting himself.
ED: This article was updated on March 9 to add the statement from Lucky Gunner.
Need to write into the law something where the loser must pay for the costs of the winner in these ridiculous lawsuits…that would end them.
Considering it’s Bloomberg that would not matter to him much, unless there was a clause stating “if the suit is found to be frivolous, plaintiffs must pay all legal fees or 1% of the plaintiff/organizations net worth, whichever is greater”
Nice
Why stop at 1%? More like 25% or 50%. Also, make them post a bond too that will cover double of all costs that the defendant/respondent incurred if they try the ole liquidation, bankruptcy and reorganization move.
Mr. L.
Dreamer! Don’t hold your breath until THAT happens.
Apparently my last post was not up to TTAG standards and was moderated out of existence. Not entirely sure why but I have a guess. Anywho, I did a little research and the case against Lucky Gunner is Case No. CV-0081158.
If you would like to read about the case, follow the link. The link does take you to the everytown website abut there is a lot of good information including who the key players are and who represents them….
https://everytownresearch.org/documents/2019/06/aziz-amended-complaint.pdf/?akid=3440.647991.smLcZY
I forgot to mention, I think the case against lucky gunner is bullshit.
“I think the case against lucky gunner is bullshit.”
For *decades* people sued tobacco companies for liability in causing lung cancer deaths.
People laughed at them. Oh, how they laughed! The *fools*! The cases were thrown right the fuck out of court with boring regularity.
And then one day…
Same game plan, people. It worked. Laugh at your peril…
Actually Geoff, what Big Tobacco did was way different. For decades they knew what tobacco did to folks, and they covered it up so that they could continue to reap profits. That is different from selling something that everyone already knows the effects of.
IIRC, TTAG made this very comment in the not too distant past.
“That is different from selling something that everyone already knows the effects of.”
Like private motor vehicles, Gina?
They kill tens of *thousands* annually, and the public just accepts that death rate. Ho-hum, nothing to see here…
Now, if your point was that ‘guns are designed to kill people, and that’s why society must be rid of them”, the elephant in room is that studies show guns are used defensively roughly 4 *times* as often as they are used for crime.
Are you seriously proposing that people must accept violence, robbery, and more horrifying for women (I really hope) being raped?
Don’t women have an absolute right not to be raped?
Answer this please, Gina, is a woman who has been viciously and brutally raped morally superior to a women with a dead rapist at their feet? Should rapists get a fee pass? Or should rapists be forced to accept that raping a woman means a good chance they might die trying to rape her? As a woman, is the world a better place with less rapists in it?
A woman who chooses to carry a gun is a woman powerfully empowered…
Also, in addition to being wildly guilty, Big Tobacco finally laid down, politically, for the domestic suits, because .. in exchange .. the faaar larger Chinese markets were opened up to them.
Back to this:
“Among those killed at the school was a Pakistani exchange student whose parents filed the amended petition. It’s part of a lawsuit filed against the suspect’s parents”
How do these parents, who sound to be non-US Pakistanis .. in PAKISTAN .. even have the Standing to ‘sue’ anyone in a US court?? Much less a ‘suspect’. And, if they don’t, then what supposed weight .. legally .. does their ‘petition’ hold, versus RTKBA, in a US court system? (facepalm)
Also
“(lawsuit) alleging the(parents) knew their son was exhibiting extreme behavior and yet failed to prevent him from accessing their firearms, which authorities believe were used in the shooting.”
Ignoring for the moment that Society, Oversight, and even Locks only restrain the Moral and the Honest ..
So .. anti-gun corporations and their agents .. pursuing these actions .. are positive of the circumstances asserted in their claims, .. buutt, meanwhile, the authorities are not sure of what firearms were Actually Used in the shooting??
Wut?
You do not need to be a citizen of the United States to file suit in its courts. Standing arises from the fact that a) it was their son, and they have standing to sue for his death, b) he was killed here, and c) the defendant(s) are located here. Would you rather that Lucky Gunner have to fight this suit in Pakistan?
Geoff (Words, lots of words) – You used a lot column space there to attack a position that Ms. Paligonia never asserted. She merely stated that everyone knows what guns do.
“You used a lot column space there to attack a position that Ms. Paligonia never asserted.”
She clearly implied it, and didn’t bother to retort.
Case closed…
Everytown has already lost the case before it even begins. Anyone who has bought ammo from lucky gunner knows that there is a clause that covers this situation before you purchase the ammo. It must be read before you purchase it and can not be bypassed.
“She clearly implied it”
What she wrote: Lawsuits against the tobacco industry and against the gun industry are different because the tobacco industry lied and the gun industry hasn’t.
What you apparently read and replied to: Women shouldn’t be armed.
“and didn’t bother to retort.” – I.e., declined to answer a bunch of questions that weren’t directed to any point that she made.
“Case closed…” – I.e., any accusation that isn’t contradicted by the accused can be assumed to be true, regardless of how little evidence supports it.
The problem isn’t that we have crappy freedoms like not being interrogated when we buy some ammo, but rather the problem is we have some crappy people.
Yet democrats solution is always to accept crappy people and limit freedoms.
This already is existing law. All it requires is a judge to order it.
Why do you say this suit is ridiculous?
Lucky gunner’s management is required to know the law. The law makes it illegal to sell hand gun ammunition to underage individuals.
Lucky Gunner sold ammunition to an underage individual, who used the ammunition to kill 10 people.
The instability of the adolescent mind is a prime reason to not sell handgun ammunition to underage individuals.
Simple fix. Have the ammo sent to a sports and outdoor shop where you have to come and pick it up in person
The Courts can apply sanctions against frivolous litigants.
People have wanted “loser pays” in our court system since I was a wee little one. Trial Lawyers put a stop to that everytime.
There is a reason why 95% of the house and senate hold law degrees.
thats where the money is.
Need to start a new grassroots movement: Gun Owners Against Lawyers. The GOAL is common sense tort reform.
Wonder what the laws are in Pakistan?
Isn’t that where we killed Osama bin laden?
You can’t buy bullets in P-stain, but I hear suicide vests are on sale year round, and brainwashing your kid to blow himself up in the local market is a very lucrative retirement strategy….. (probably why the parents are pissed)
“You can’t buy bullets in P-stain, …”
Really?
“For Middle-Class Pakistanis, a Gun Is a Must-Have Accessory”
“With Kidnappings and Violence on the Rise, Demand for Weapons Permits Grows”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123120431026355961
“Many licensed arms are sold in the military city of Rawalpindi, a half hour outside Islamabad. Down the street from the city’s Liaquat National Bagh — the park where Pakistan’s first prime minister was assassinated a half-century ago and where Ms. Bhutto was killed last December — small arms shops, their walls lined with shotguns and long-barreled pistols, are scattered amid mom-and-pop stores.
“A gun can be your friend,” said one gun-shopper, Sifarish Khan. A few years ago, the government clerk was shot in the hand by his brother-in-law after an argument. He shows off a scar in the webbing between his fingers. Having a gun, he says, is like having loyal defenders at his side. “More bullets, more friends,” he says.
Weapons purchased legally in the Rawalpindi shops are typically 10 times as expensive as those readily available on the black market in Northwest Frontier Province and its capital, Peshawar, a historical hub for weapon smuggling from Afghanistan. But urban Pakistanis tend to shun the illegal arms bazaars in an area known for tribal codes, bandits and Islamic insurgents.
Islamabad-based lawyer Muhammad Ali Saif, who comes from the country’s northwest, says he wants an assault rifle for protection when he goes home on visits. He’s no stranger to firearms. In the early 1980s, Mr. Saif says he was shot in the stomach fighting invading Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan. Mr. Saif has since publicly criticized his former Taliban comrades, however, and defended unpopular former President Pervez Musharraf in several court cases. The prominent lawyer says he won’t feel secure until he’s toting a weapon that matches those carried by potential assailants.”
GEOFF, really? Did you read the whole post, it was a fuckng joke I’m aware of the political situation in Pakistan and that violence is a way of life, but honestly I give about as big a shit about P-Stains problems as thay do mine which is exactly nil…….
“… but honestly I give about as big a shit about P-Stains problems as thay do mine which is exactly nil…….”
Are you actually that short-sighted?
Pakistan is a nation with nuclear weapons that Islam would love to be in charge of.
You are aware of what Fundamentalist Islam would do with a nuclear weapon if they had one, aren’t you? They wouldn’t keep it clean and shiny, they would *use it*…
One nuke leaves there and we turn that bitch into a glass parking lot.. Evidently I can see a lot further than you and I have no love lost for them…..
“One nuke leaves there and we turn that bitch into a glass parking lot..”
You are dense.
Russia would have a large problem with detonating a nuke in that part of the world…
It is amazing how many people think a nuclear war is .winnable’.
I’m old enough to remember the fantasy doctrine of ‘limited tactical nuclear warfare’.
If you want to good laugh, look up Davy Crockett atom bomb.
Even a so-called limited exchange would lead to the virtual extinction of human life on this planet, along with the rest of gods creation.
Sadly, there is are many of both Muslim and Christian faith who seem to crave the apocalypse.
Friends, the rapture is a fantasy, the word isn’t even in the Bible.
Dad is dead, end of story.
fully expect the largest lobby in the swamp to ferry in tort reform any day now.
You mean Everytown? It outspends the NRA by a factor of more than ten. It even buy elections.
“Lawfare” is a weapon that can be used for good as well as evil. Vox Day and Owen Benjamin are using it to war against the oligarchs running social media. Vox Day’s book “Corporate Cancer” provides a lot of good info about this subject. Vox also talks about it quite a bit on his “Darkstream” podcast.
Good, because flushing their cash down the toilet would yield the same result!
Why don’t these people sue the shooter’s parents for not raising a good kid. Or better yet, sue the school district that was supposed to teach him. If I am ever in a car accident where I was hit intentionally by another driver, I will sue the car manufacturer, the gas station the person purchased the fuel, the tire company whose tires were on the car, etc.
They did sue the parents. It is in the article. “It’s part of a lawsuit filed against the suspect’s parents,…”
And they may have done a good job. Good parenting doesn’t prevent adult onset schizophrenia.
My God, these idiots are desperate to blame someone, anyone. Next they will go after the dealership who cold the car he used.
Yup. It’s about as frivolous as it gets. SMH.
It has nothing to do with “Blame”. Except in the realm of deep pockets. It’s always about the “Benjamin’s. Especially for the Scum Bag Lawyers and their minimum 30%. That’s why the People truly responsible for their children’s abhorrent behavior are never sued. Unless of course they are filthy rich. The biggest portion of the “Swamp” needing cleaning is in the So-Called Justice system. Judges who answer to no one and lawyers you care only about winning at any cost. Are as much a part of the criminal element as the actual criminals who commit the crimes. Keep Your Powder Dry.
So you want to blame the lawyers for the desires and demands of their clients?
@Tactical,
Like you, my gut reaction is also “really?”, but as I read the article’s wording again, I’m curious to know more details of the plaintiff’s strategy. For example, if the vendor (LuckyGunner) is being sued for allegedly violating a law via selling to a minor by “not requiring proof of age”, is age identification required by Fed and/or State law in the first place? Social media sites will simply ask the question “Are you at least 13 years old?” when you set up an account, but many underage kids lie, and the sites legally have themselves covered. Any 17-yr-old can buy a prepaid VISA card, register it online to activate it, and then go to LuckyGunner to make their purchase, lying about their age if asked during the checkout process. As long as the vendor asks the question and receives the answer that passes the “age test”, they’ve done what’s required of them by law and are not liable for the buyer’s actions. Similar to how an employer (at least in CA) only has to request the presence of two forms of I.D. for employment from an applicant, but isn’t required to verify them to see if they’re legitimate. That’s how we have so many illegal aliens here working as if they’re “legal”, and the employers aren’t liable.
That’s my understanding of the matter. I’m curious to know more details.
By Federal Law you are supposed to verify the age of whoever is purchasing the ammunition. At least they have giant signs that say that at Fleet Farm. Everytime that I can recall buying ammunition from anywhere other then where I knew the people they have either asked for ID or DOB.
Links to this alleged Federal law, please?
Federal and/or State laws establish minimum ages for certain activities, such as firearm/ammo purchases, alcohol/tobacco consumption, vehicular driving on public roads, voting in public elections, etc.
I’m not aware of any Federal requirement that ammunition vendors must demand I.D. from you, though they typically will do so anyway as their own policy to legally protect themselves. Some states – such as CA, IL, MA, and possibly others – do require it.
A quick search on our Google Overlords’ magic portal of knowledge didn’t turn up anything that supports your claim. Can you provide a link, please?
I buy ammo in bulk from the source that has the lowest delivered cost. In the last 20 years of buying ammo online in the checkout process you have to check a box that certifies you are 21 years of age or older. Also, if the delivery address is where there are laws that restrict ammo sales the order can’t be completed. These sites also have a page that lists terms & conditions which list the jurisdictions that have restrictions. CA address requires shipment to an FFL (excludes C&R FFL) or CADOJ licensed ammo seller.
If you have a C&R FFL, #3, they will direct ship with your signature required at delivery. Most online sellers that don’t also sell firearms won’t ship to CA. Not worth the paperwork hassle.
Reminds me to go buy more ammo from Lucky Gunner.
They’re not always the cheaper option … but I find their Labs, hollowpoint testing especially, to be valuable, and it’s a way to provide a little support when things like this happen.
Re ordering, I think LG is one of those that requires you to check a box agreeing to terms and conditions which state you’re of age and not going to use the purchase for evil or illegal purpose. If the kid will lie about that, he can certainly work through almost any verification process.
Agree all around. My next online order will come from them.
Lucky gunner screwed up and will pay dearly.
Order placed with Lucky Gunner. Please Sir, detail how Lucky Gunner screwed up. The purchaser had to lie to obtain the merchandise. How is that Lucky Gunner’s fault?
Under the law, Lucky Gunner was supposed to make sure that an adult signed and received the product at the end of the transaction. Delivery cost more with this end verification. It would be like a liquor store delivering to a porch of a house that well could have under aged want to be drinkers living there.
Maybe all of us feel that most teens are responsible enough to go plinking/hunting, but there are laws in place making that illegal.
Someone at Lucky Gunner screwed up, since they hired and trained that person/group, the company is ultimately responsible.
Might be a local or state law where you lve but, I have hundreds of rounds dropped at my door periodically, I have never had to sign for anything.. (common addendum when completing an on line order) “Please click here to add an adult signature to ensure your order ends up in your hands.” The only Federal regulation I’m aware of is that ammo must be marked ORM-D and must be shipped by common carrier not P.O.
Good point, MaddMaxx. I believe you’re correct. In today’s online shopping world, it’s all about checking the little boxes.
Assuming the facts in the article are correct, Lucky Gunner is vulnerable. The “L” in PLCAA stands for lawful, and ammunition sales to a minor aren’t lawful. It’s certainly enough for a legitimate court case.
Yep.
Happens at the liquor store all the time.
it will go to the Supreme Court and die
Sounds like they are going after on line ammo sales period…. How does “Lucky Gunner” sell their ammo? Never seen a 35/ 105 round pack of 12 gauge….
Depending on what type ammo was ordered, they have 12 ga buckshot in 5 rnd packs.
Okay, I usually order 250 at a time, just looked up 5 packs (start at 95 cents up to almost 2 bucks a round?) not a very efficient way to buy ammo, probably why I never saw it, start my searches by price per round low to high, just never got that far down the page, like I’ve said before I learn something every day….
Brady sues Luckygunner, list, AMD was forced to pay a six-figure legal fee
These lawyers are testing my patients.
That sounds illegal. 😉
And likely unethical.
“These lawyers are testing my patients.”
You’re not fooling anyone, pege2, by impersonating me.
Talk guns or get lost…
Get psychiatric help. Thank them later.
Keep sniveling, peeege, it suits you well…
Hmmm…Lucky Gunner sells to 17year olds with zero verification? I like their videos but I’ll continue to buy from my LGS’s. And I include Cabelas as they employ people locally-and ask for ID(which annoys me!)I also buy from other Indiana shops which ask only for $(but have no Club points).
You’re all missing something. He was too young to have a credit card. So he was using a parent or older friend’s. Lucky Gunner is in the clear wholly on that alone without even having to delve any deeper.
actually a 17 year old kid can have a checking/savings account complete with the MAGICAL debit card (works just like a credit card as long as the money is there). In fact my Niece got a part time job on weekends at Dairy Queeen when she was 15, had her own savings account (w//debit card) in HER name…
Yep…a kid can get a credit/debit card. Easily too. Emancipated hollyweird minor’s sure have. My son was sent credit card apps before he was 18 too…
He can have a debit card with no problem
Uh oh, I think the plaintiffs actually have a case under existing federal law if LuckyGunner indeed sold handgun ammunition to a minor.
Consider a medication distributor. If that distributor sold medication to a minor who treated that medication like candy, distributed it to friends as candy, those friends ate the medication like candy, and those friends became seriously ill and/or died — that medication distributor could face liability for that.
In general a company should not be liable for the actions of adult customers who misuse their products in an irresponsible, negligent, and/or criminal manner. I do not believe the same principle applies when a company provides their products — especially products which are inherently potentially dangerous — to minors.
Perhaps LuckyGunner can avoid liability since they only complete sales via credit cards and you are supposed to be 18+ years-old if you have a credit card. Thus, LuckyGunner can claim that they reasonably determined that the purchaser was an adult since the purchaser used a credit card. And since the purchaser was an adult, LuckyGunner cannot be held liable for the actions of the purchaser.
The article says the minimum age to purchase is 21. We need to hear more details. If a minor uses a fake ID to purchase beer, and then kills someone in a wreck while intoxicated, could the seller be sued?
and then kills someone in a wreck while intoxicated, could the seller be sued?
Short answer? YES…..
Can we also sue Honda and Toyota when somebody uses their cars to hit someone?
“Can we also sue Honda and Toyota when somebody uses their cars to hit someone?”
Leftists have tried suing companies that make gas-guzzling SUVs for causing ‘climate change’…
Leftists on this forum want to sue people who don’t undergo invasive medical procedures. Even children. Real hero’s.
The hero’s what?
Whaaa?
Oh no, the alien abduction anal probe again?
I hate it when that happens…
Miner49er says:
Whaaa?
Oh no, the alien abduction anal probe again?
I hate it when that happens…
NO, you don’t
Common sense which is the most uncommon commodities would tell you that in online orders, there is no way that you can verify anyone. So they don’t have any basis for a lawsuit.
But there is a lawyer who wants to get paid.
If they provide a check box which the purchaser must address to complete the purchase they have done their job, IF the kid chose to falsify information that is on him…..
I, for one, feel Lucky Gunner should be in the clear as long as the meet the standards the Obama campaign (2008 and 2012) used for verifying online donations.
Politics is a weapon, right?
Does buying a politician count as purchasing “arms?” What if you only buy a part share? Cheap?
When you come to collect patronage owed, do you need a reciept?
The punk will be out of custody after a short time in juvie anyway, the courts are already letting cold blooded killers out of prison early after Being convicted by a jury , if they were minors at the time. It’s already happening. A smart kid with a chip on his shoulder could wipe out all his enemies while he’s young knowing the liberal courts will give him or her three hots & a cot for several years the be free again no matter what sentence he received while being a minor.
Everytown…
— Can’t get people elected on the merits, so try to buy elections w operatives n dirty tricks.
— Can’t get enough legislators, so try to buy Governors n A Gs.
— Can’t get what they want even owning the Govt operatives, so time to rent some thugs. (W/o uniforms n titles.)
— Can’t run over people who can stick up for themselves, so release the Kraken: Lawfare!
Well, at least they’re persistent.
AND persistently consistent….
I hope Lucky Gunner prevails but if it’s true that they didn’t at least make an effort to verify his age then yea, they f***ed up. Even if he were to somehow game the system and still get the ammo after verification, Lucky Gunner would then not be at fault. Vape retailers cover their asses every time by doing this.
This no adult signed for delivery is not a basis for liability unless the goods delivered were defective. Since everyone is guilty perhaps FedEx could be held liable if the package showed signs of its contents and was left at a doorstep or handed to the perp?
If the perp is a minor and charged as an adult in a criminal case and convicted perhaps the perp is also an adult in a civil case and that makes the ammo seller exempt?
Perhaps the clowns who sell gullible ivory tower parents a false sense of security with “Gun Free Zone Signs” should be held liable.
Makes me wonder what this dirtbag’s parents were up to while he was having box after box of ammo delivered to their home.
Let’s think for a moment. How does one order things online? Using a credit card. Are credit cards issued to minors? Well, until recently, people under the age of 18 were recognized as minors who can’t effectively be bound by a contract so credit card companies wouldn’t issue credit cards to them.
Now of course, since there are no standards for anything, there are banks lined up to issue credit cards to minors. Google has a list of the top twenty card providers for teens. Only a few require them to be authorized users for the parents. But if the parents make them an authorized user, the minor would appear to be using an adult’s account. So the question of how they paid for the ammo is significant. If they swiped their parents’ number or were using their parents’ account, there would have been no reason for LG to know that the person was a minor.
The question of ammo is far less significant in my mind than the initial question of how a minor got a handgun at all. Oh, that’s right. The little delinquent stole both the handgun and the shotgun from his father and took them into a gun-free school.
What else do we know about him? Media isn’t really talking about the trial which went on hold December, 2019 because
“The teenager accused of the Santa Fe High School massacre has been transferred to a mental health facility. {The idiot shooter}, 19, was transferred Thursday morning from the Galveston County Jail to the North Texas State Hospital in Vernon, officials confirmed. Last month, a judge ruled Pagourtzis was incompetent to stand trial. He was ordered “committed to and confined” to a Texas Department of State Health Services facility.”
So this is yet another mentally ill person, part of the 80% of mass shooters who were demonstrably mentally ill before they committed their evil deeds.
This is what happens when a society lets seriously mentally ill people wander around unsupervised.
“Let’s think for a moment. How does one order things online? Using a credit card. Are credit cards issued to minors?”
Gas stations and WalMart sell pre-paid credit cards for cash…
Guess he should’ve stayed in Pakistan.
It’s already illegal for minors to buy ammo but thats not good enough. They want to put up impossible prefect controls to prevent someone from breaking the law. Or even breaking the law against murder for that matter.
And we get trampled in the process.
Remember boys and girls. This case is about $$$$ and nothing more. The plaintiff and their scum bags lawyers are playing the waiting game. Squeeze long enough and hard enough. Looking for Lucky Gunner to settle. Thus getting a big pay out. As is usually the case in the corporate world. If not and it goes to trial. We go back to the 3 things needed to win a case of this type. 1. a judge who allows the case to go to trial. 2. A lawyer willing to take the case. And most importantly. 3. A Sympathetic jury. The law will not matter as is the case in most civil trial. Yes the verdict may be eventually overturned. That takes time and more money on Lucky Gunners part. Also part of the squeeze long and hard strategy. In the end it will come down to Pay Now and make it go away. Or Pay for years in hopes of an eventual win. That’s why most companies simply give up and pay. Not sayin it’s Right. It’s just how the game is played in the Swamp. That’s called the justice system. Keep Your Powder Dry.
Lucky Gunner won’t settle.
When the Brady Bunch sued them on behalf of the Aurora victims families, they didn’t settle, and iirc, they filed a suit to recover their legal fees.
And many years later they still haven’t received a dime toward their expenses.
I think an amendment to the PLCA needs to be passed requiring any suit alleging other than product defect requires a bond of 1 million dollars to be posted to pay the defendant back for their legitimate costs. This would put a stop to all or at least most of this lawfare.
“Remember boys and girls. This case is about $$$$ and nothing more” I don’t think so. Everytown is funded by the deep pockets of Mini-Mike Bloombucks. They could care less about the money. This is part of the anti 2A agenda to curtail and eventually drive online ammo sellers out of business.
Agree.
It’s about money, using a 2 pronged approach if they can get the case heard: taking money from legitimate, law abiding businesses that sell firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories by trying to bankrupt them by having to defend themselves against these frivolous lawsuits, and if they somehow manage to actually win, by forcing the company into bankruptcy with outlandish financial judgements.
I’ve never used Lucky Gunner so I don’t know how their billing process works.
That said the suit sure uses a lot of words to make it sound like LG is a fly-by-night organization, which automatically makes me suspicious of the suit.
That said, I’d say Cadeyrn is right on this. In terms of any potential liability the real question is if the payment process was done in such a manner that LG knew or should have known that the buyer was not of age to legally buy. If LG was lax in their process then, yeah, they’re liable for supplying ammo to someone they shouldn’t have. However, if there’s no way they reasonably could have known that the buyer was underage (such as the kid used a parent’s card or something) then LG is the victim of fraud. Whether or not that fraud was abetted by parents or others is immaterial to the fact that LG was defrauded and therefore isn’t liable.
It seems to me that in the age of internet and credit card fraud it’s likely that LG was defrauded. But at this point that’s up to the court system to decide. That sucks in some ways and is good in others. Regardless it’s a warning to others to have your system screwed together tight to avoid possible claims against you like this.
Since Federal Law prevents gun companies from selling to those under 21, it seems like Lucky Gunner May have been negligent in not having any kind of age verification process.
If this 17 year old bought ammo from them, others might have as well. If I were the prosecutor, that’s what I would find out. If you could establish a pattern of sales to minors without verification, then you’d have a winning strategy.
I just placed an order for ammo with luckygunner to support them..
http://www.luckygunner.com is, in my opinion, the very best in ammunition supplies. Great selection, great prices and ridiculously fast shipping. Customer service is also top notch. Help turn this bunk publicity into profits for a great company. All your ammo needs right there at your fingertips.
So now I can sue the makers of automobiles for cars that are involved in deadly accidents? Jump in and hang on as we are at the top of a very slippery slope.
“So now I can sue the makers of automobiles for cars that are involved in deadly accidents?”
Been done, Google “Unsafe at any Speed”, and Ralph Nader…
This is the exact same logic as several here have repeatedly argued claiming that people have the right to sue other people they THINK made them catch a cold, a flu, or something else.
This reminds me to buy more ammo from Lucky Gunner, thanks Everytown.
I wonder how big of a deal it would be to require the showing of a scanned driver’s license or state ID card (.pdf or .jpeg file) for internet purchases of ammunition or other goods where there are age restrictions. And, if so, would that get the vendor off the liability hook?.
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