AR-15 80% lower
Dan Z. for TTAG

Yesterday, Stephen Gutowski revealed a leaked ATF document he obtained that outlines the proposed new rulemaking around 80% lowers and build kits that the agency is working on (see the full document here). The document — which could still change before it’s officially released to the public for comment — makes it clear that the agency’s intent is to outlaw virtually all unserialized 80% lower receivers and build kits.

The document reworks and broadens the definition of what parts constitute a regulated firearm receiver. It then says any unfinished part that “may readily be converted” into a receiver must be treated as a receiver and requires sellers to obtain federal licenses, mark the unfinished parts with serial numbers, and perform background checks on buyers. The proposal provides only subjective standards for what makes an unfinished part “readily” convertible into a finished firearm but provides footnotes to court cases where the term has been applied. One court example included in the document said a part completed in “around an eight-hour working day in a properly equipped machine shop” was considered “readily” convertible. The only example of a ruling defining when a part is not “readily” convertible involved a process that “required [a] master gunsmith in a gun shop and $65,000 worth of equipment and tools.”

The examples provided in the document show the proposed rule would likely outlaw the sale of any unfinished receiver, especially when included in a kit with other parts and instructions or tools needed to complete the part. That’s because most unfinished parts sold in America today, including so-called 80% AR-15 lowers, can be finished at home in a few hours with commonly available tools like drill presses and compact mills.

Apparently spending eight hours in a machine shop to complete a lower and build out a rifle or pistol is far too “readily convertible” into a working firearm for the ATF’s tastes. Read Gutowski’s full report here.

Under the ATF’s proposed new rules around these products, the percentage of completion standard (80% doesn’t matter…neither would 70%, 60%, whatever) would go out the window. Instead, the regulator’s measure of what materials can be sold in order to build out a non-serialized firearm is the amount of time and equipment required to finish the job.

In other words, the new ATF rules as they currently stand in the leaked document and if eventually adopted would effectively mean the end of the unserialized 80% business. Taken to its logical extremes, sellers of aluminum billet would have to obtain a federal firearms license and serialize their inventories.

Here’s the Firearms Policy Coalition’s reaction to what the BATFE has planned . . .

Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) was made aware of an apparently leaked ATF document, captioned “Definition of ‘Frame or Receiver’ and Identification of Firearms,” detailing the Biden administration’s first set of plans to further regulate firearms. After an initial review, FPC Law determined that the proposed new regulations contained in the document would give the ATF new and expansive powers to attack the right to keep and bear arms, particularly the right to self-build arms for lawful purposes. A copy of the document can be found at FPCLaw.org and at The Reload, a new publication founded by prominent firearms journalist Stephen Gutowski.

The FPC Law team is currently conducting an in-depth analysis of the document’s contents for both regulatory and pre-litigation purposes. The apparent Notice of Proposed Rulemaking primarily details how the ATF intends to change the definition of a “frame or receiver” to now also include, among other things, any “unfinished component” that “may readily be converted” into a firearm receiver. Moreover, under the document’s proposed rule, any number of parts, components, and accessories could be legally classified by the ATF as “firearms.” 

FPC strongly condemns the ATF’s apparent draft rule and is committed to mounting an aggressive regulatory and legal response should the Biden Administration move forward with this apparent proposed rulemaking, which would egregiously and irrationally expand federal powers, add burden on gun owners, and unconstitutionally restrict the peaceful exercise of fundamental rights. As was the case when the Trump Administration’s Department of Justice entered into rulemaking to declare that bumpstocks were machine guns, FPC will use every available resource to defend the People’s human right to keep and bear arms. We stand ready to defend the People and human liberty in the rulemaking process and beyond.

Further information and analysis will be made available at FPCLaw.org.

Individuals who want to become a member of the FPC Grassroots Army and support the fight for human rights can become a member for just $25 at JoinFPC.org.

Firearms Policy Coalition and its FPC Law team are the nation’s next-generation advocates leading the Second Amendment litigation and research space. Some FPC legal actions include:

    • Challenge to Pennsylvania’s laws completely denying the right to carry to individuals who were previously granted relief from prior non-violent convictions and are not currently prohibited from possessing firearms (Suarez v. Evanchick)

    • Challenge to New Jersey’s ban on so-called “assault weapons” (Kashinsky v. Murphy)

    • Challenge to Maryland’s ban on so-called “assault weapons” (Bianchi v. Frosh)

    • Challenge to California’s ban on so-called “assault weapons” (Miller v. Calif. Att’y General) 

    • Challenge to Maryland’s ban on handgun carry (Call v. Jones) 

    • Challenge to New York City’s ban on handgun carry (Greco v. New York City)

    • Challenge to Pennsylvania’s ban on handgun carry by adults under 21 (Lara v. Evanchick)

    • Challenge to California’s handgun “roster”, microstamping, and self-manufacturing ban laws (Renna v. Becerra)

    • Challenge to the federal ban on the sale of handguns and handgun ammunition to adults under 21 years of age (Reese v. ATF)

For more on these cases and other legal action initiatives, visit FPCLegal.org and follow FPC on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube.

Firearms Policy Coalition (www.firearmspolicy.org) is a 501(c)4 nonprofit organization. FPC’s mission is to protect and defend constitutional rights—especially the right to keep and bear arms—advance individual liberty, and restore freedom through litigation and legal action, legislative and regulatory action, education, outreach, grassroots activism, and other programs. FPC Law is the nation’s largest public interest legal team focused on Second Amendment and adjacent fundamental rights including freedom of speech and due process, conducting litigation, research, scholarly publications, and amicus briefing, among other efforts.

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85 COMMENTS

    • I just assisted two more gun newbies in getting Polymer80 frames and parts ordered for their own builds, after taking them to the range. There is always a market for people who want to build their own.

      If the ATF changes definitions again, get ready for a mess of lawsuits. An unelected agency isn’t supposed to be acting under “color of law” to change the law just because they get a hair up their keister.

      • A regulation cannot expand beyond the scope of the authority delegated by statute. Here, as I recall, “firearm” is defined by statute, and therefore there may be a valid argument that the ATF cannot “interpret” the statute in ways such as this regulation attempts. This is why prosecutions for ARs have failed, because the definition of “firearm” in the code does not describe a two part receiver as a “firearm.” On the other hand, I think the law may be broad enough with respect to semi-auto pistols to allow for banning 80% builds.

        • “…two part receiver…”

          Without clear definitions, couldn’t you argue that some semi-auto pistols are the same, though? Frame assembly and slide assembly, upper and lower receiver, gotta have both assemblies together although only one part is serialized. Functionally, there is little difference between a P80 pistol frame and a P80 AR receiver. Same with a Glock slide assembly vs. a complete AR upper. Unless I am missing something? What is your thinking on this?

        • Same with a Glock slide assembly

          The slide assembly on my G29 bears the same serial number as the receiver…

        • But it can, at least so far.

          Trump had the ATF do it with bump stocks, and as I predicted would happen the next time a Democrat occupied the White House, Biden is having the ATF do it bigger and better.

        • “The slide assembly on my G29 bears the same serial number as the receiver…”

          I believe the reason for that is, in Europe, the parts that bear the load of firing pressures are the parts regulated as firearms. (Barrel, bolt, breech, etc).

          By numbering both, Glock is simply covering both bases at the same time…

        • To Ing,
          I too, have been trumpeting this everywhere on all the gun blogs.
          DJT set a terrible precedent with bump stocks.
          Braces and binary triggers are next

        • “DJT set a terrible precedent with bump stocks.
          Braces and binary triggers are next”

          IIRC Doc, Florida has already made possession of a binary trigger a felony.

          And since one circuit (the 6th?) has ruled bump stocks are not machine guns and are legal to own, hitching their cart to that horse could end up biting them in the ass bigtime…

      • The real question that seems to be no where on the internet is what if you want to get rid of the guns? They are unserialized so what can they do? lmao.

  3. Other receiver parts than just 80% lowers or polymer80 glocks could be impacted, like unfinished AK receivers, mp5/G3 receiver flats, and uzi repair kits.

    You would be breaking the law if you are buying and building these and selling or distributing your creations without a license, and you would also be breaking the law if you were buying these as a prohibited person. Despite those laws on the books, they want to just end the access for everyone rather than confront the actual criminals breaking the existing laws.

    I guess it’s easier to go after dealers and the law abiding since they desire to comply with the law, you can raid and scare them into compliance. “Your online firearm parts store is in violation, stop selling these banned parts or get an FFL or your business is getting shut down and you’re going to jail!”

    • T-one year for new regs
      T-366 days for someone to release a g code tool path for the ghost gunner to make aluminum billet into a lower. With a wonky mag well.
      T-367 days until someone releases one for an AK.

      • “T-367 days until someone releases one for an AK.”

        Pfttttpt.

        An image file used to print a decal that can be applied to a flat piece of metal with the outlines of all places needed to be cut away is all that’s needed to make an AK flat.

        Just fold it twice with a sheet metal brake, and instant AK lower ready to be populated with parts.

        So will that mean bags of small parts gathered together to finish the build will be treated as firearms? If someone needs one small part to repair a broken firearm, will they be required to pass a BGC?

        That kind of nickel-and-diming could make that whole house of cards collapse on itself…

  4. Just one more step in the advancing agenda to neuter the 2nd. If the companies keep sales records of who they sell to, and they do, the Feds will have the lists in no time. The knocks on the door start one at a time and all guns will be seized. There won’t be any recourse. The course, Congress and the SCOTUS are all in on it.

  5. So what then for hardware store shotguns that take five minutes to assemble?
    Pretty sure a trained machinist in a proper shop can “convert” any solid block into a functioning gun in an eight hour day.

    I demand this be enforced to its fullest possible extent. For the lulz.

    • “So what then for hardware store shotguns that take five minutes to assemble?”

      Just what I was thinking.

      Force them to only sell plumbing pipe with a BGC…

  6. So, you’re telling me a 10lb bucket of used brass is an AR receiver if I can, given a well equipped machine shop, make a lower out of it in a day?

    • “So, you’re telling me a 10lb bucket of used brass is an AR receiver if I can, given a well equipped machine shop, make a lower out of it in a day?”

      A whole lot less of a shop can do that already with brass scrap, a furnace (even an improvised one will do), and a bucket of slightly damp sand…

  7. Guess the word is out… Went to my go to for 80% AR lowers, NADA, zilch, zip, nothing… They usually have several brands poly and aluminum… Still some Glock lowers but, Meh… OBTW, What’s up with the editor, not been able to edit posts for several days now… Never mind, just tried it again and NOW it’s working…

    • So if you can build what technically isn’t defined properly as a “receiver” by their own definition, in a professional machine shop in a day or under, then it is ” technically” subject to ATF approval ? I’ll bet that I could turn a junkyard aluminum wheel into a “receiver “in that amount of time if I had a full machine shop at my disposal…. guessing that the price of junkyard parts is going to go up, what with all of the required paperwork coming !!

      • Yeah if you had a small crucible and some molding sand you could cut em up, melt em, take an old receiver to make the mold then just use a jig for the internals (just have to wing it with the mag well)…

        • Lost foam casting would do the trick nicely…. until they make molding polymer a regulated material.

        • The filaments now in use for 3-D printers work quite well as a ‘lost wax’ casting media…

      • So they’re building an even bigger house on top of their legally dubious foundation. Unless resident Harris succeeds in packing the SCOTUS, I’d like to think this is all going to come tumbling down sooner or later.

        My hope for SCOTUS redemption might be unfounded.

  8. So….. literally a tube from Lowe’s IS a Sten receiver. Not it could be a Sten receiver, under these proposed laws it IS a Sten receiver. Ask yourself this: if the issue was they felt 80% arms were to easy, wouldn’t it have been more logical and quantifiable to lessen the allowed percentage? Say to 60 or 50? While I think it’s egregious, it would at least be logical. Instead, they have decided not to lessen, but to increase the ambiguity of the law. They want to play “we know it when we see it ” well excuse me, but FUCK YOU. You dont get to create intentionally ambiguous law to use as a club against your enemies. We will go from “this guy committed a crime” to “I don’t like this guy. I thin his beliefs are dangerous. Let us use the law to preemptively eliminate the “threat”. Find something. Ah, here we go, you see this face book photo with this Glock magazine and steel pipe? That’s a Sten receiver because I say it is. It’s obvious he was intending to illegally manufacturer a firearm as evidenced by his possession of an unregistered receiver.” If course this WILL happen. This will become law because all of the sheep won’t care or realize the implications on their own lives until it has obvious implications in their own lives. Until the gov applies the precedent this would establish to other things. Well that Sudafed could be used to make meth. This, it IS meth. Thus u have the legal right to search your shit and arrest you. If something IS what it could potentially be legally, the implications are daunting. “We found a pipe, nails, and he also black powder and projectiles. So we’re gonna arrest him for possession of “any other weapon”, sub clause explosives, for possessing a pipe bomb.” We’re going back wards. We’re giving them ambiguous tools to get rid of problems, instead of “this guy is a problem because he committed a crime, we must act.” It will be “this guy’s a problem because a or b, lets fund SOMETHING we can use to make him a criminal, and eliminate the problem. He didn’t actually do anything, I just feel like he could be a problem I he believes such and such. He has to have SOMETHING we can use.” Kinda like what we saw with trump. It wasn’t “trump did this evil thing, he is a bad man, the law says a man who does this can’t be president,”. But, “I don’t like trump. I FEEL like he is the kinda person who would do a b and c. Let us FIND something, anything, we can use to eliminate him. There has to be something. Ooo try this. That didn’t work…..damn. oooo try that. Damnit….there has to be SOMETHING!!!!” This is how my uncle thought and said things like this. He didn’t understand why I thought it was scary and a serious problem that “I don’t like him” came first, and “find something we can use legally to get rid of him.” Came next instead of him having done something illegal, and the disliking and legal action followed that. “You don’t understand why starting an investigation into someone’s life to find wrong doing based, not off of a crime having been committed, but off of not liking someone and feeling it was likely you’d find something you could use to get rid of them, is an issue?”

    • “….You dont get to create intentionally ambiguous law to use as a club against your enemies. ”
      They do get to do that because Americans have for decades acquiesced to their tyranny. Until they are made to believe that they can’t, they will continue to take away our rights, freedom, and liberties using whatever tactic they chose. A coach continues to call the same play set repeatedly as long as it continues to gain the desired yardage. Only when the opposition presents an obviously, decisively effective defense to stop cold the aggressions into their own territory will the offenses be stopped.
      “I think his beliefs are dangerous. Let us use the law to preemptively eliminate the “threat”. ” BINGO…..that’s how it always happens…..and is currently happening….think social media blocking free speech accounts. Especially after the Little Peeps are disarmed.

      Politicians have accomplished what armies feared to attempt and were unsuccessful in doing. America is under siege, has been over run from within. For decades the enemy has been sitting in the Command Post. The following well describes Pigloosi, Slummer, Xiden, Laughing Hyenna KamelHo, FineStain, A. Damn Shitt, Soros, Jack Dipsy, Muck Fuckerberg, the MSM, Academia, et el…. “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
      An excerpt from “A Pillar of Iron” by Taylor Caldwell depicting the spirit of ancient Rome in its last days of glory. The hero of the story, the man called “a pillar of iron” is Marcus Tullius Cicero, the lawyer-statesman who tried vainly to save the republic he loved from the forces of tyranny.

      The new agenda for humanity requires that no one will have the capacity to fight back. It has been said: “Our Task of creating a Socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed.” No other explanation is possible. Welcome to “common sense” gun control.
      History has repeatedly demonstrated that disarming good people in the name of making bad people harmless only eventually facilitates politicians shooting their own countrymen. History…learn from it or be doomed to relive it….or die by it.

    • Great article in Recoil Magazine Issue 52 (Jan/Feb 2021; available back issue) detailing the build of a 12ga double barrel shotgun “Building Joe Biden’s Blaster”on page 90 from Lowe’s odds and ends bin. Endorsed, I’m sure, personally by Ole Sleazy, Creepy, Senile Crazy “Fire Two Blasts in the Air” Joey and The Laughing Hyenna aka KamelHo. Also, bonus, on page 58, “The Condo Lower” finishing an 80% Ar-15 lower in your apartment. In other news, American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) has DIY DVDs: #3494…”Machining the AR-15/M4 80% Lower Receiver”; #3234L “Building The Ar-15 Rifle”; #3294 “Building the AKS Rifle – from a parts kit.” Subversive material….soon to be burned in streets near you. Understand, ATF is suiting up to “No Knock” subscribers/news stand patrons as I type. AGI is “screwed.” Believe SwallowWell is authorizing “nuking” them. Get the body armor on your pooch.

    • The operative line of your word cloud was this….
      They want to play “we know it when we see it ”

      That’s the key so they can selectively enforce the law against the deplorables and let the ANTIFA types skate.

      • Exactly doesky2.

        The equivalent quote from Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged:

        There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kinds of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted—and you create a nation of lawbreakers—and then you cash in on guilt.

  9. Can’t ban 3D-printers and CNC-machines, can’t remove CAD-files from the interwebz.
    Can’t stop the signal!

    • Can’t stop the signal!

      But, they CAN follow it… If you use an ISP they can find out where it went…

    • Apparently, a bunch of plastic filament that can be printed into a receiver in 8 hours would count as an receiver requiring a serial number and background check.

  10. Six to three in SCOTUS and still can’t get a case certified. Consider yourself fucked.

    • Roberts isn’t on the “six” side. He almost counts as two on the “other” side.

        • But five to win. If the four don’t think they have a fifth vote, they won’t vote to certify.

      • Is there a GoFundMe account to send Roberts on a hunting trip to a Democrat owned West Texas hunting lodge? A “To die for” experience according to Justice Scalia. 🙂 🙂 🙂

        • So Biden and Democrat Senate can appoint his replacement? That doesn’t sound helpful.

        • “send Roberts on a hunting trip to a Democrat owned West Texas hunting lodge”

          Only if he is into conflict of interest violations by accepting free hunting trips and luxury lodging from those who have issues before the Supreme Court.
          Nothing like an all boys sausage party in the west Texas desert, you might be interested in finding out who else has a big fancy spread near Marfa,Texas.

  11. AR-15 lowers can be made out of many other materials besides aluminum.
    I’ve seen photos where someone made an AR-15 receiver out of wood (which I’m sure was much easier to drill the holes in than aluminum), so do you know what that means?
    Every piece of 2 x 4 lumber will require an FFL, serial number, and background check!
    Want to build a wooden fence in your backyard? First you’ll have to pass a background check for each and every 2 x 4 piece of wood you buy! You’ll need hundreds of background checks to build your wooden fence.

    This BATF proposal is ducking reficulous.

    • I hear you. It’s nothing short of ri-c**k-u-lous.

      Also, when last I checked, congress, either the house or senate, was supposed to vote to pass bills. The bill then had to pass a vote from the other house (senate if house votes first, and vice versa). The bill then goes to the president, who chooses whether to sign it into law or veto it. The veto can be overridden only with a 2/3 majority vote from both houses.

      Now the ATF, a bunch of bureaucrats that we did not elect (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, hence “bureaucrat”) get to legislate with a simple letter and signature???

      Apparently they get to singlehandedly amend the GCA of 1968, which specifically allows firearm manufacture for personal use without a serial number.

      If they do get to rape the system like that, I’m sure a lot of 80 percent receivers ended up in the garbage, because the buyer removed too much material, or ruined it with the wrong drill bit.

      Of course, you can also 3D scan it before handing it in to the ATF, and then make a new one that they cannot find through a subpoena of Polymer80 sales records.

    • There was a thread at ARFcom, which got nuked in the great purge, that detailed how to make cast plastic lowers, with very affordable materials to make a rubber mold and then cast plastic parts from it. They didn’t last forever, maybe 200 rounds, but once you had the mold you could crank out workable AR lowers for the cost of a Quarter Pounder at McD’s.

      • I hear you, but I would just take an existing AR-15 lower, fill all the voids with play-doh, and use it to create a pattern in a sand cast.

        Once your sand cast is made, pour molten aluminum into the cast to make your 80 percent lower. A hacksaw and a file set will take care of the gate and sprues.

        It’s an easy “whatcha got” project. you can make a sand casting “flask” out of 2 square frames made from 2×4’s. It is basically a mold made from two frames packed tightly with sand.

        Aluminum melts at about 1200F, so you can melt it quite easily with a cast iron pot and a roaring fire (An electric leaf blower makes a good improvised bellows.). A propane furnace is even better, if you already work with metals.

        “Making sumthin From Nuthin” has a great youtube video that takes you step by step through the whole sandcasting process. It can be easily adapted to casting lower receivers.

        I would take an extra step though of drilling some small holes through both 2x4s to accept metal pins. This will prevent misalignment, as roughly half of the receiver pattern will be printed into each of the two frames, and misalignment will “smear” the sand and screw up your cast. The pins will force you to lift the top piece straight up before you remove your pattern piece, and keep everything lined up when you put them back together to cast the new piece.

  12. Stand by for a couple months of record breaking gun and ammo sales numbers. Can’t wait to see the April NSSF and NICS numbers. 🙂

  13. Just curious, how many shootings/killings have been caused by someone using a gun built from a 80% receiver?

    • There are not very many. Most of the hood rats who shoot each other in the inner cities do not have the know-how or the tools to finish a lower receiver. An average IQ of 85 is not highly conducive to competent gunsmithing.

      I may be insensitive, but I am not wrong.

  14. Well, one of the last sentences of this article is complete and total BS.

    “Taken to its logical extremes, sellers of aluminum billet would have to obtain a federal firearms license and serialize their inventories.”

    This is absolutely not true. Page 31 of the document states:
    “frame or receiver molds that can accept metal or polymer,
    unformed blocks of metal, and other articles only in a primordial state would not […] be considered a “partially complete” frame or receiver.”

    This means the 2×4 comment here is also not accurate.

    • I would not count on it. A r*pist that the victim knows and trusts will usually start by s**ual harassment and inappropriate touching, to see how much the victim will tolerate before resisting.

      The ATF is testing the waters to see how much gun control and illegitimate legislation we we will tolerate.

      Congress writes and passes new laws, which then have to be signed by the president. The supreme court decides if an action is compliant with the law as written, or if a law is constitutional. The ATF is getting too big for their britches, and attempting to sidestep all 3 branches of government on gun laws.

      Make no mistake. The ATF’s end goal is COMPLETE DISARMAMENT of the American people.

  15. I’m no lawyer, but is it correct assume that all upper receivers will require serialization and background checks too? Or are they just saying that the lower receiver is now officially the firearm?

    • The lower has always been “the firearm”.

      Under their own definition it doesn’t really fit but… it’s the ATF dude, you’re asking for a well thought out set of rules from the LD class.

  16. Oh, by the way… Do any of you who scoffed at those of us who were upset about Trump’s bump-stock ban remember what I (among others) told you was going to happen the next time a Democrat occupied the Oval Office?

    Well, here it is. I TOLD YOU SO. I told you the Democrats were going to do the same thing — using bureaucratic interpretation to rewrite black-letter law — only much bigger, and I was right.

    Not that they necessarily *had* to wait…but once a Republican has opened the door, it’s much easier for the Democrats to waltz through and start doing what they already wanted to do. The pattern has existed for a long time. Republicans create a government-power toolkit in the name of fixing a very specific problem; conservatives, who would raise a stink if Democrats tried it, think it’s okay because their party can be trusted; Democrats then weaponize the toolkit against everyone else; wash, rinse, repeat; both parties work against you, and you don’t even realize it.

    How long do you think it’ll be before some Democrat points out that our own Saint Donald set the precedent when he had “his” ATF do the same commonsense regulation thing with bump stocks, which are evil just like ghost guns, and most of us seemed to be okay with that, so why are we whining about something that all “responsible” gun owners should be okay with?

        • Nah, the Bureau of Land Management has been badically completely out of control for many decades more than that.

          You just had to be affected by them to know about it.

        • For sure. Where I’m from, people *hate* that agency, with good reason. Anybody that sticks a Cliven Bundy style finger in the BLM’s eye (the original mostly, but the Buy Large Mansions grifters would also suffice) is good to go. The Patriot Act just mainstreamed the abuse.

        • IMHO the Patriot Act just happened to catch people’s eye because it was so ridiculous and, at the same time, people took the “terrorist” label seriously so they were actually kinda offended when it became known how fast and loose the government was playing with that definition. If it mainstreamed anything it was the acknowledgement of how idiotic our government can be.

          A bunch of that stuff was very infantile and that jumped out at people. But like I said, numerous agencies have done this for years and years and years. Not to beat a dead horse here but the DEA has been absolutely out of control since the late 1970’s (it only took them like four years to get out of control). But no one really cared, and mostly people still don’t, because bumper sticker sloganeering works to get the suckers to hand over their freedom for perceived safety. The DEA actually has, and probably will again, simply “take” jurisdiction from the FDA if the DEA feels like it.

          What’s that? You’re doing entirely legal and legit research with NIH and FDA funding? Oh, well here’s a letter that says it’s now illegal and you must cease that research at the time you finish this letter. Why? Because we heard some kids were getting high on that stuff. This has actually happened and more than once and was done so with wording indicating that if you hadn’t stopped by the time you finished the reading the letter you were an instant felon. Nice, eh? Comply with this letter without finishing it or it’s a federal crime. Why? Because we said so. Other justification? We don’t need one.

          They’ve done a good enough job at it that people will justify outrageous abuses of power with illogical and blatantly untrue propaganda that they simply repeat. In that regard it’s a lot like Covid. Scare people real good and you can get them to do a lot of self-destructive things.

  18. Serious question:

    Let’s say this proposed new ATF rule becomes reality. Does this new rule forbid simple ownership of “80% receivers”? Or does it only forbid companies from selling “80% receivers” without serial numbers and background checks?

    That is a critical distinction because people own thousands of unfinished “80% receivers” which do not have serial numbers and which those people acquired without a background check before this change to the rules.

    • Additional important question:

      If this proposed new ATF rule becomes reality, will it be illegal to own a completed receiver without a serial number which someone manufactured from an “80% receiver” that he/she acquired without a background check before this new rule?

      • The greater question will be how does this affect State law? Florida says I can build and possess as many firearms as I want with no serial numbers as long as they are for my personal use… There is no distinction between building from 80% receivers or from scratch… This should be interesting…

    • Another good question is how it would apply to the selling of old guns that have no SN due to being manufactured before that was a thing.

      I have a mint condition 870 pump from the early 1950’s with no SN on it. How might this apply to such a firearm?

      • Simple. They’re also gonna change the definition of C&R to mean Catch and Release. You Catch an old gun, and they squeeze you until you Release it to them. This way, they get ’em all!

      • “I have a mint condition 870 pump from the early 1950’s with no SN on it. How might this apply to such a firearm?”

        Know their (lack of) mentality, I suppose a law can be created that requires all firearms like that to be serialized.

        Which would destroy their monetary value. That may be an avenue to getting it declared unconstitutional…

  19. Lets go over some things that would magically become AKs:
    -Shovels
    -filing cabinets
    -auto body panels
    -electrical conduit boxes
    -computer cases (if heavy enough)
    -Microwave oven cases

    Stens and clones may include:
    -common black house pipe and electrical conduit
    -fence posts
    -hydraulic cylinders
    -drive shafts?

    ARs well what about them?
    -Beer cans
    -legos
    -castable resin
    -shell casings
    -wood (yes the dead tree carcases)

    If you have a high quality machine shop most of those can be done within 8 hours pretty easily.

    • “Lets go over some things that would magically become AKs:
      -Shovels…”

      In all fairness, that cool build took far longer that 8 hours to complete…

  20. I don’t know why they’re going to challenge this in court. Every single court and every single judge will rule that this is completely legal within the Biden administrations and ATF authority. Including the Supreme Court. Actually they won’t. I should remember they won’t take the case because they don’t take gun cases.

    • “I don’t know why they’re going to challenge this in court…”

      Yeah, OK, Hicks…

  21. Just another example of “Red State/Blue State Laws”

    As we sink further into tribalist law, more and more states will just have laws enforced by the tribe of their state. So Illegal Alien laws for example will only be enforced in Red states, and Gun laws will only be enforced in Blue states. The president in power, backed by the meaningless congress that just exists to rubber stamp the president they like or whine about the president they hate, will pass laws that will only be enforced by the state that matches his color (red or blue)

    Its lame, but yet, it seems to be the growing wave of the future.

  22. Well I’m fixing to go do dirt. So the first thing I’m going to do is order a 80% lower, and the parts to go with it. Then the upper and parts to go with it. Then I’m going to put them all together and, wahala, now I’ve got an untraceable firegunm.

    ” Uh, okay, I just stole a gunm and filed the serial numbers off, but you do you.”

    • “They can’t just make this shit up as they go.”

      Yes, they can. Basically every alphabet soup agency exists, quite literally, for that purpose.

  24. Can’t wait for all the YouTube machinists to compete in the 8hour challenge! Can you turn this block of Aluminum into a receiver using only your fully stocked machine shop?! Smh!

  25. Pipes and nails would need to be serialized under that proposal. I can manufacture a slam fire shotgun with no special tools in far less than 8 hours.

  26. The ATF CANNOT change the definition of a firearm. They tried that with saying a bump stock is a machine gun and a Federal Appeals Court told the ATF NO, you can’t do that.
    The same thing will happen here when a lawsuit is filed.

  27. So when I get a block of metal to build my squirrel proof bird feeder, I’ll need ATF permission and put a serial number on it?

  28. There’s some room here for creative mischief that would wreck the ATF bureaucracy.

    Let’s say they get to widen the definition of ‘firearm’ to a point where a chunk of metal of the correct alloy have to be serialized and forms filed on it.

    So do that. Start with pieces of round bar stock, drill a hole down the middle, claim that they’re 25% Rem700-compatible actions. Slap a number of them and sell them for, oh, 10% over the cost of the bar stock.

    Flood the ATF with paperwork – for what is, in effect, a round tube of alloy steel that costs $10 or less.

    Then start using these “guns” as all manner of widgets that aren’t actual guns. Take the machining no further. Use them for paperweights, toys, whatever. Take pictures of these “guns” in all manner of non-gun uses. Flood the internet with the meme, and ridicule the Biden administration and ATF until they cannot take it any more.

    Ridicule is the way to cause these clowns pain.

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