Let’s start this post on the “international effort” to disarm Libya’s militias with the last sentence of the columbiatribune.com article. “The problem is, young Libyans in militias have no incentive to hand over their weapons, which are their only source of security.” So what’s the problem? If the guns are a source of security what’s wrong with having guns? For the [supposed] answer to that question, we return the article’s beginning . . .
Libya, where hundreds of militias hold sway and the central government is virtually powerless, is awash in millions of weapons with no control over their trafficking. The arms free-for-all fuels not only Libya’s instability but also stokes conflicts around the region as guns are smuggled through the country’s wide-open borders to militants fighting in insurgencies and wars stretching from Syria to West Africa.
Ah yes. Whatever happened to the good old days, when Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi ruled the African nation with an iron fist, making sure his government and its allies were armed to the teeth and the populace was not? When the Mukhabarat el-Jamahiriya (secret police) murdered dissidents and other enemies of the regime both inside country and out (e.g. Pan Am Flight 103 and UTA Flight 772).
It seems the international community can’t have its Arab Spring and eat it too. Western nations are upset that Libya has “descended” into a farrago of factions, each with their own armed militia. Russia? Maybe not so much . . .
The lack of control is at times stunning. Last month, militia fighters stole a planeload of weapons sent by Russia for Libya’s military when it stopped to refuel at Tripoli International Airport on route to a base in the south. The fighters surrounded the plane on the tarmac and looted the shipment of automatic weapons and ammunition, Hashim Bishr, an official with a Tripoli security body under the Interior Ministry, told The Associated Press.
In a further indignity, the fighters belonged to a militia officially assigned by the government to protect the airport, since regular forces are too weak to do it.
I wonder if the militia that stole the planeload of Russian weapons is U.S. backed? (Heads-up: Cold War 2.0 is breaking out all over.) In any case, I suspect that all this agonizing over the “flood” of weapons into Libya is political posturing. The market’s worth billions and that much-feared “instability” hasn’t made headlines since Obamas’ Boyz watched terrorists murder Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens and three fellow Americans. Then again . . .
The weapons chaos has alarmed Europe — just a short distance across the Mediterranean — and the United States. At a conference in Rome this month, Western and Arab diplomats, including U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, pressed Libyan officials to reach some political consensus so the international community can help the government collect weapons and rebuild the military and police.
The problem is that Europe and the United States simply don’t know who to talk to in Libya, a Western diplomat in Tripoli told the AP. “It’s about whether they are capable of receiving the help,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity to talk about the discussions at the conference. He pointed to an international effort to build storage houses in which to collect weapons in the western Libyan town of Gharyan. That project has stumbled, he said, because of the problem of determining “who is in charge and whom we work with.”
Not to mention the obvious fact that no one wants to turn in their weapons.
Several officials told the AP that the government does not know how many weapons there are in Libya, a country of 6 million people. Saleh Jaweida, a lawmaker on parliament’s National Security Committee, said that all figures are speculation but that a plausible estimate is between 10 million to 15 million light weapons — up to an assault rifle — and not counting heavier caliber weapons or armor.
Many of the arms came from the arsenals of the Gadhafi-era military and police, which were looted during the civil war and after the collapse of his rule. Another source is the large amount of weapons shipped to the rebels during the eight-month uprising, largely from Gulf Arab nations.
The hundreds of militias around the country absorb as many weapons as they can because no group knows how well armed rival groups are, creating a climate of “mutual fear,” Bishr said. There is also a strong domestic market for weapons among the public for personal protection. Nearly every household is believed to have at least one gun, but usually it’s several.
Sounds to me like “the Arab spring” in Libya’s proceeding well enough. Well, except for . . .
A 97-page report released in March by United Nations Panel of Experts said weapons that originated in Libya were found in 14 countries, often reaching militant groups. The report said smuggling is mainly from Libyan militias’ arsenals. Sophisticated man-portable, ground-to-air missile systems, known as MANPADS, have reached four conflict zones, including Chad and Mali. “Fears that terrorist groups would acquire these weapons have materialized,” the report said . . .
Zuhair al-Ugli, the head of communications for the Warrior Affairs Agency, said there is no mechanism for dealing with the tide of guns.
“The state is paralyzed in collecting the weapons,” he said.
The state is paralyzed! Around these parts we call it gridlock and say Washington’s broken. (I don’t but statists do.) I bet those who remember the state of the state under Gaddafi might think that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. So . . . now what? Now we find allies to fight the bad guys, even if they’re bad guys too, and who knows because you can’t tell the players without a scorecard and there are no scorecards in the that part of the world – only scores to settle and money to be made.
And thank God for that last part. As always the universal desire to make money – and our country’s expertise in that regard – is America’s best hope for influence in that part of the world. Support your friendly neighborhood arms dealer, I say. What say you?
And yet another TTAG post chumming the water for the police haters and right-wing fanatics.
I purchaced an Armalite AR50 A1 about one year ago. Shortly after I bought it I purchased and installed a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50FFP EBR-1 (moa) scope on it. I love this rifle, both the rifle and scope have performed flawlessly. I’m fine with recoil but my wife is not and she loves to shoot the rifle. Armalite did a beautiful job with the muzzle break because I’ve shot 12 gauge shotguns that will punch you better than my 50.
Thanks,
Smitty
And just a thought,,,since Libya has had a profoundly negative experience in the recent past of extreme centralized control, maybe what they need as a government model is a collection of territories with general autonomy running their own internal affairs, with a relatively weak central government with the purpose of providing for the common defense of the nation and negotiating treaties with foreign countries. The “problem” of the country being awash in arms can simply be solved by legalizing the civilian ownership of all modern weapons. I think a similar thing was tried before…but then what do I know.
Good thing she wasn’t a helpless 70 year old man holding a cane – she’d have been plugged ful of lad. These cops must be extremely brave compared to your average dirtbag occifer. How touching!
Oops! “full of lead”; and not “occifer” – should have been “orificer”.
Fo those who believe everyone should be able to have a firearm for self defense I say this: guns don’t have morals or culture. These are the human ingredients which make life in groups civil. Heinlein was not right. An armed society is NOT necessarily a polite society. I give you Somalia or Libya or Lebanon or any of a thousand heavily armed societies with a weird and untamed culture. Unleashing all the demons that mankind is capable of harboring. Guns don’t have morals. Guns are a force multiplier of whatever the underlying society has in terms of morals. An intensifier of force in cutural intrractions. So where the people are trapped in these weird societies (germany, libya, somalia whatever) guns make things … interesting.
America’s strength is based upon Conscience, Morality and Rights.
Conscience, definable in part as, ‘a quality present within most every person with the potential to serve the individual in some circumstances as a restraint upon certain actions, and in other circumstances as a calling to act’.
Morality, definable in part as, ‘a simple code of individual thought and conduct’.
Rights, definable in part as, ‘the natural status of each person’.
“The simple code of Moral conduct merely requires that each person conduct oneself in such a manner as to avoid intentionally violating the actual ‘Rights’ of another person or persons.”
Consider as you may that the intentional violation of another persons actual ‘Rights’ constitutes the basis of an actual criminal act.
Simplistic as this may well seem to many — application of the quality of Conscience; adherence to simple codes of Moral thought and conduct; and
recognition of / and respect for the ’Rights’ of each individual represent no less than the critical elements separating ‘humans’ from all other animals.
( The ‘Being’ in ‘Human Being’. )
For those who may not have thought about it in quite this way —
Conscience, Morality and Rights are the very basis of the strength of an individual’s ’constitution’;
the foundation upon which the ideas, ideals, principles, standards and values embodied in the truly unique “American Constitutional Republic” form of government has been fashioned and implemented; and
upon which continuance of the Republic depends.
Do No Harm / Successfully Defend
You could say that Obama did the same thing to Libya that he did to America: He thoroughly discredited central authority, shredded the social fabric and left society much more balkanized, impoverished, chaotic and heavily armed than he found it.
Just sayin’. 😛
I think it terribly unfair that you give so much credit to Obama, and so little to Valerie Jarrett. Her grandfather was received with more dignity in Iran than in Chicago. Suddenly, we’re soft on Iran. I’m not big on conspiracy theories, but I’m a big believer that people carry forward the perceptions of the world cultivated within their families and among their once-young friends.
Funny… but also kind of true.
Sometimes I really wonder what that guy is thinking.
Can we get Mr Peace in our time Arab Spring Obuma and Madam Cankles into Libyan collect this Russian hardware then ship it into Ukrania?
I wish I could go down the road to BillyBobs place and buy a belt-fed.
Holy Photoshop Batman! That one big distorted 1911!
Let me ask you, nnjj, are you familiar with the concept of “probable cause”? This concept provides that before the government can seize anything, it must have probable cause to believe a crime has been committed. Now let’s talk about 80% aluminum lowers. The BATFE has said on numerous occasions that an 80% aluminum lower is not a firearm; therefore, it is not illegal for a felon to posses one unless and until it is milled into a stripped lower, at which point in time it becomes a firearm.
Now let’s add in a couple of facts. First there was the raid in the Sacramento area, where it appears from the affidavit released to the press that the ATF believes that felons are assisting people to mill out aluminum lowers, and it is inferable that both the assistants and their customers are or may be felons who are avoiding federal firearms laws. Now of course the ATF would love to know who these felons are that have bought aluminum lowers. Second, there is Dimitri’s statement that what the ATF really wanted–and asked for a year ago– was his customer list–and they wanted him to turn it over voluntarily without a subpoena. Since it is not a crime to sell one or possess one, there is no probable cause to require a seller to release his customer list–and therefore no probable cause to support the issuance of a subpoena. Hmmm. Houston, we have a problem.
All of a sudden there are polymer lowers on the market, and the ATF, in its infinite wisdom, declares that these polymer lowers, simply because of the manner in which they are manufactured and not because of any feature of the finished lump of plastic, IS a firearm. Suddenly, Ares is in the business of selling firearms without an FFL–and now there is probable cause to support the issuance of a subpoena to seize its customer list, allowing the ATF–as it specifically has stated it intends to do–to cross check the customer list against the felons database.
Does that put the pieces together for you?
Equating warning shots with mere threat of deadly force is disingenuous. Sure, a warning shot is pretty threatening, but you’re being too cute by half, or else just daft, to lump it in with other threats of deadly force.
Placing your hand on your tang, or pulling up your shirt to reveal your side arm, or hell, even presenting your firearm, are all far removed from actually discharging that firearm. Pulling that trigger is itself a crossing the Rubicon event, regardless whether it was purely a warning or aimed directly at someone.
Allowing so-called warning shots only blurs an individual’s decision making and muddies the waters post-event on determining exactly what happened. Allowing warning shots adds another gradient to the lethal force spectrum, further diluting the bright line between justification for lethal force and not. It creates a brand new category of activity for individuals and jurors alike to struggle with. Instead of keeping it simple and holding that you may not threaten or use lethal force unless you are in imminent danger of death or serious injury, we would instead allow the new middle ground whereby kinda sorta semi-dangers are permitted to be addressed with kinda sorta in your general direction discharges, but not necessarily meant to hit you. Well.
Once you’re firing that firearm, it’s on. Warning shots or intentional, bullets fired do have a nasty habit of hitting other people and property. Just ask the NYPD.
If you’re faced with an imminent danger of loss of life or of serious injury, then by all means you’re justified in firing to stop the threat and the law should stand behind you and defend you right to defend yourself. However, if you’re in a sufficiently shady middle ground that even YOU aren’t confident enough that you’re in such serious danger as to justify shooting someone, then why on Earth should the rest of us and the law give you special rights to fire off rounds indiscriminately and with impunity? The concept is Stand Your Ground, not Go Launch an Offensive.
If you are “in such shady ground that even you aren’t convinced” that you have the right to use lethal force…then no presentation of a firearm is legal. If you are legally open-carrying, it is obvious that you are armed. The spirit (and generally the letter) of concealed carry laws forbids you, though, from presenting your firearm from concealment without being in fear of your life or serious bodily injury (usually interpreted by the courts as in fear of what amounts in a given state to ‘aggravated assault.’)
The law passed by the Florida House does not provide cover to those who are not convinced, nor to those unreasonably convinced. It merely seeks to remove criminal sanction from those who consider presenting their firearm, or firing it, a morally justified intermediate step short of “one minute you have no gun, the next minute the perp is dead.” The law does nothing to diminish the culpability of people who present a firearm, remove it from concealment or open-carry holster, just because they are uncomfortable.
Anyone who takes the statute to be an lessening of the threat required to justify presenting or firing a gun is in for a terrible surprise.
Piss off a liberal and get a Mosin today!
Every single ONE of them needs to go and make sure that their children do not get in either…this woman’s daughter has the same mental dysfunction as the mother
Julie’s post is great, and something we all need to cteannorcte on.Three points:1. RUTHLESSLY evaluate your ability as a first-shots instructor for THIS STUDENT. I’ve been married 43 years. I’ve been teaching people to shoot for 30 years. If my wife wants a shooting lesson I know who I’m sending her to.2. Teach gun terms before you teach safety rules. First, your student needs to know what the muzzle is before you get to that rule. Second, it gives your student several minutes watching you competently handle a firearm, and allows them to get over any OMG HE’S HOLDING A GUN reaction before you start in on the rules.3. When teaching safety, emphasize the positive. Shooting is about the safest sport around. Make that point, then teach the rules we follow to keep it that way. I sat in on an instructor once who brought a whole box of blown barrels to a class, passed them around, and told each disaster story. By the time he finished everyone was wondering how many guns they would see blow up on a typical range visit. Ouch.
Some people keep asking why they didn’t take any customer information for those who purchased 80% aluminum lowers. But what they don’t seem to realize is that the ATF confiscated all of their computers. Does anyone really think they just went through the computer and carefully copied the records for the EP polymer lowers only? Of course not, they copied every lick of data including the info for 80% Aluminum lowers, EFFIN-A comps, upper receivers, bolt carrier groups, everything. Because if you have purchased any of these items, chances are you own an AR. It’s just more information for them to add to their list of owners of ‘undocumented firearms’
The first .22 rifle I ever had (and still have) was purchased by my dad when I was 14. He asked what I wanted and I immediately said “bolt action”. He asked why, and was a little surprised. The answer was simple! My two year older brother had a Marlin Glenfield semi-auto tube feed rifle (and I bought one two years ago from a pawn shop). I’d seen him “track” squirells in the trees that he’d have got if he’d just taken more time to aim first. Told my dad about that, and that the bolt action would force me to take better aim before firing. Surprised him more with the answer, and got a Marlin tube feed bolt action. It will mis-feed if bolted to quickly, but has been a very relaible squirrell/rabbit/target gun that I still enjoy.
Hope this ammo shortage ends soon! I thought some of the less popular calibers would be more resistant, like 9×18, but they seem to be re-stocked last once they run out!
ive got money for a few tax stamps that i intend to go for as soon as he signs it.
got a 500 i want to sbs, id like to sbr my AR and i think while im going to order a suppressor.
The longer I live, the better I realize, that the WHOLE Government needs to be ousted from the lowest politician to the highest one. Then reestablish a new government who does have their heads up their asses!!! Our Constitution Stands!!! They are NOT allowed to change it!!! We ALL need to stand up and get what the USA was built for, OUR FREEDOMS!!! Why keep politicians who refuse to do the job We pay them for?? I don’t know of any other job that you get paid for, and you don’t have to do anything but behave like IDIOTS!!! That is is called an I D 10 T error.
After going numb trying to find filtering through the most valid comments made (after trying to thoroughly understand the article), the main idea is simple…. The barrel length factor is only a myth! UNTIL you have trial & erred each individual item ie: bullet (specific weight, model, etc..), powder type and weight (and finding the sweet-spot for each in relation to barrel length), case and primer (to get really picky), the the barrel itself!!! Composition (Steel, Chro-Moly, Stainless, etc…), its crown!!! The twist was covered (1-10″),but there should be more elaborate tests with different twists per different barrel lengths. I have read lots of comments concerning fluting, barrel weight, & harmonics, and I feel these are very valid concerns which should be observed in conjunction with all of the many other factors! And, to touch on something which I didn’t read about: number of grooves and types of rifling!! I have read and believe that less grooves equals less resistance, therefore increasing velocity. How were the riflings cut? How were they lapped? There are just way TOO MANY FACTORS to get precise data…. Especially if you’re not immortal and/or financially unlimited. I’ll stick to building a gun beginning with barrel and action (whichever comes first), and then choosing a bullet, then powder type and weight, until I feel I have found the best fit with each, one thing at a time… This doesn’t include days I forget to eat or take my meds, and I shake more than I did another day.. so much stuff to consider!
I’ll bet that if TTAG started selling bumper stickers, MDA would not report on it. Stop making them bigger than they are.
Frankly Robert, your beginning to sound a bit paranoid, you need to watch what ou type brother.
If I’m Ms. Watts, I dance a happy dance every time TTAG links to my propaganda. External links from popular sites will dramatically improve their search engine rankings.
Ms. Watts should send Mr. Farago a thank you note.
This guy must be conflicted, what with displaying both the union flag and a confederate flag.
My Civil War studies weren’t that thorough… can someone remind me when Washington State joined the confederacy?
You do not need any experience to know Yeager is a complete idiot. You do not put photographers in front of students shooting and you do not announce you are going to start shooting people.