So, just so I’m clear: are we FOR pre-crime arrests now?
There’s usually a lot more to go on than pre-crime assumptions.
That creep in Buffalo got caught strangling a car to death. That right there should’ve gotten him involuntary commitment but we can’t do that anymore since it’s more humane to let psycho head cases just wander the streets as per the ACLU.
The poor car. Was it a sports car, minivan, sedan?
The horror!
I heard it was a convertible, so really it was just asking for it driving around with its top down like that…
“Car” is a typo. He meant “Cat”.
It is not “Pre-Crime”. It is watching for mentally ill people and getting them treated. If found to be dangerous, then due process of law puts them in an institution.
Most cars killed get run over.
Sometimes cars have 9 lives. Once I saw a car that came back to life 9 times after it made a growling sound then stopped moving and just died.
I think one of the strongest indicators of psycho killing is animal torture or killing.
What do you do with such folks?
Try to help them with therapy but at a certain point something more drastic.
I can tell you that animal owners will kill to protect a loved pet.
If the animal is one that tastes good, you invite the person over for BBQ and warm up the grill.
😜
Actually it is NOT a crime to shoot a cat or a dog on your property. AS others have pointed out her. Is mit NOT against the Constitution to pre-judge and arresst for ‘pre-crime’ THis is not bloody TOM CRUISE andfd HOLLYWOOD. If you were to arresr or ban anybody who actre4d ‘odd’ every nbloody gun owner innthe USA would deserve incarceration as representing a ‘potential’ threat to Society. Hey there’s and idea Why would I have to prove you are unbalanced? Why not leave it to you to provide the proof of your own ‘sanity’.
Let every bugger be guilty until proved innocence because that what’s being suggested -Be carful of what you wish for!. The SALEM witchhunts are as nothing in comparison
Guilty until proven innocent is the basis for all gun control laws, dacian.
And with the fascist left you cannot prove your innocence, ever.
A question to ask oneself; imagine you have a family member who has been acting odd and you come across her or him strangling a stray cat. Will you sleep well in the same house ?
Now he suddenly expresses an interest in weapons and babbles like the weird kid did on his rap art about no free will with images of shot people.
Or other weirdness or fantastical nonsense. Will you seek advice from social services? (As you are escaping)
Wow, AJ must be off his meds. He is almost Biden incoherent today.
I’m against ERPO/Red Flag. Period. You don’t get a punishment until/after a crime. Period.
What appears to be happening is low-lifes (low-lives?…hmm…) are committing preliminary actions that should be dealt with at the beginning, but soft Leftist judges and agencies are letting them go with mere slaps on the wrist. So the low-lifes continue on their path of destruction with greater impact.
Haz,
Yes…and worse: completely overlooking bad behavior because correction would evoke howls of racism.
And let’s not overlook the impact of over-medicating (psychotropics) our young people.
Yes, but in the case of Red Flag laws the process is the punishment. No Judge or Magistrate is going to say no to a red flag request. They will not risk it if even it’s completely unwarranted. The judges will not suffer any consequences by saying yes to every one.
It will become the new ‘Swatting’ after a time. I think it’s stupid as h3ll. If a person is dangerous enough to seize property then they need to be seized as well.
“Fear the Man, not the Weapon.” credit to whoever stated this..
Wrong. Used to be we locked up the dangerous crazies all the time, kept them out of circulation. Used to be we didn’t have these mass killings, random killings. We need to rebuild the psych hospitals. Reinstate laws to identify and lock up them up by due process of law.
“Pre-Crime” was a Tom Cruise movie plot, not real life. In real life we do not wait on a rabid animal to bite. We see that the animal is dangerous and act accordingly.
No not at all but can we at least bring suspicious behavior out into the light? Don’t be obviously obtuse.
TexTed, if I understand things correctly it is currently illegal in most jurisdictions to threaten others (Highland Park, Parkland with violence, and to threaten violence at schools (Parkland, Uvalde, Buffalo). Suicide, threatening suicide (Highland Park), and attempting suicide are also generally illegal. While prosecuting successful suicides seems redundant, threats of or attempts at suicide do indicate a need for some sort of intervention. Harming animals (Buffalo, Parkland) is also generally illegal.
So it isn’t about arresting people before they commit any crime, it’s about intervening when they commit lesser crimes that are typical precursors to more serious crimes. For comparison Count Dankula was arrested and prosecuted in Scotland for teaching his girlfriend’s dog to do the Not Z salute as a prank.
Yeah that Count Dankula prosecution about sums up the current state of affairs.
Woke violation will get you jail, threatening to kill your whole family and cutting cats? No problem.
I know my past canines loved to shake hands but I’m not sure they could even physically click their heels. Were they alsations?
There’s usually pre-murder crimes that are not prosecuted as they should be.
Perhaps they should keep an eye on the loose canon beto o’rouke.
dacian. He fits the profile.
Yes he, it, she, zir. ze, zit does.
Zit looks like the correct pronoun. Zit’s a zit on humanity’s arse.
She, he, it………..shorten to s/h/it.
Seems to fit lil’d well.
I worried about my brother when he was an adolescent; he liked to destroy things when angry. I asked mom to get him some help but she shrugged it off. Over the years he held grudges and became more and more introverted. He met and married a woman who turned him around so he was no longer violent, but it could have gone badly for him and others. This was 40 years ago.
So, the only thing that saved us from future shooters is a good woman with a plan?
Don’t be silly. Sounds to me like a good woman with a rolling pin.
Good to read a happy outcome.
A kite won’t fly without the string.
A good woman is the string.
I’m glad it worked out for all concerned, but usually it doesn’t work that way per the Stats. He was one of the exceptions to the rule.
We can’t actually do anything with a known, obvious and dangerous nut job before a mass shooting because the Constitution is a suicide pact.
No it’s certainly not, but it was also written for viruous, responsible and decent human beings that were joined in a common effort. This was well known and spoken of at the time. Possibly the American public education system since 1968, and unquestionably the college and university system have destroyed that part of American society, or at least reduced much of it to a lawyer-driven, me-first situation.
Do you honestly not think the left would weaponize pre crime against us? Who defines “known, obvious and dangerous nut job”?
You’re usually intelligent and insightful, but what you said above is simply insane. Are you drunk?
Red,
“Do you honestly not think the left would weaponize pre crime against us?” Ummm . . . they already HAVE, Red???? WTF do you think “Red Flag” laws are???? The fascist Left hates due process, just like they hate ALL “constitutional” rights – except the made-up ones like “freedom from fear of violence” or “freedom from hate speech”.
Ralph, I get the first part of course but I’m curious about your reasoning on the second part. Not seeing the angle.
He’s being sarcastic.
Who, Ralph?? 😉 Usually my sarc meter is pretty well regulated. I’ll check it’s calibration, perhaps some fine tuning is required…
Make sure you check the impedance on the sardonic harmonizer.
Not a bad point since they always argue that it’s not a suicide pact, which is why gun control is totally legit!
I have an idea!! Let’s hold pharmaceutical companies, whose psychotropic drugs cause suicidal and homicidal ideation, accountable when their consumers commit suicide or homicide. The same for the shrinks who prescribe those drugs. After all, they market those drugs as a way to keep people safe and acting “normally”, making the marketing mis-leading and dangerous.
Guns do not kill people, but drugs do.
I like that. Great idea! If Remington can be sued for advertising……..
Are psychotropic drugs ever tested for effects with nicotine, alcohol, cannabis, or meth, because many using these drugs will self-medicate with other substances.
Saw a good t-shirt today. Think I am going to buy one:
“Guns do not kill people.
But fathers of pretty daughters do.”
When her suitors come a’callin…..
‘Husbands that come home from work early kill people.’
Good thing I work from home!
Smirk!
If we were released from duty early I always told my soldiers to call House 6 and let her know so they wouldn’t surprise her or be surprised coming home early.
I like the old Harley commercial where a guy n girl are in bed and they hear a bike pull up. She says “he’s here!” and the guy jumps out of bed in a panic and hides in the closet. The biker dude walks into the house, looks around, slowly walks to the bedroom, stares at her and then gets on the bed. As he’s bending down over her you see her arm reach toward the nightstand and flip down a wedding picture of her and the closet dude.
My future father in law ran me out of the house with a gunm stuck in my back when his wife caught me and my future wife in bed.
“house 6” I haven’t heard that term but I like the concept of calling ahead.
Missouri_Mule – House 6 is a play on the Call signs of the Commanders of Army units. The commander call sign was the Unit nickname followed by the numeral 6.
I like the T-Shirt’s that read
“Yes, I have a beautiful daughter. I also have a gun, a shovel, and an alibi”
.40,
I like it!
My dad would have liked that T-Shirt.
My dad and mom were very protective of us kids. My dad though was especially protective of my sister when a boy came to pick her up for a date. My sister had to have the boy come inside and meet the parents if this was a first date.
She absolutely hated to do that with first dates, so she would warn them that dad could be ‘assertive’. And the reason was because when the boys came in they found my Dad sitting in his favorite chair with the shotgun. He would rack the shotgun, and say in this menacing tone “lets talk about how you are to treat my daughter.” and if the boy didn’t high tail it out the door (some did) he would tell them “That’s my daughter” then lay out the rules about treating her with the utmost respect and having her home by a certain time and a whole list of things. Then he would put the shotgun across his lap with both hands on it and lean forward and say in that menacing tone “Got it?” and the boy is all about “Yes sir…Yes I understand..yes sir … most definitely… yes sir” and is ready to get out the door as quickly as he can.
My brother and I joked about that shot gun. We called it the ‘date gun’ to irritate our sister.
Some of the first date boys did not ask for further dates, but some did and she ended up marrying one of them later in life after they met again at college and fell in love. Great brother in law. They had two daughters. My dad passed on before he could see his grand daughters but he left me all his guns and among them is that shot gun. One of the daughters was asking if she could go out with boys, my brother in law asked to borrow the ‘date gun’.
I’ve got a friend with 500 acres and a backhoe.
I upgraded to excavators decades ago. Bigger, faster, deeper holes. Only got a few acres though, startin to run out of ground…
Rider, I have an old backhoe. Will make a nice 6ft deep hole of proper size in about 10 minutes. I also have 640 acres with a couple garden plots, and the other trappings of a homestead farm. Of course, the hydraulics will be broken if anyone wants to dig around here, so I will happily hand them a spade and let them have at it.
I believe the saying was “Shoot, Shovel, Shut up”.
Oldmanimal, I’m jealous (the homestead, not the old backhoe, been there, done that). And yup, words to live by I think.
Befriend a Pig Farmer. The Dana’s useless after going through Porky’s gut.
One of my high school girlfriends’ dad’s actually did greet me, when I came to pick her up for our first official “date”, at the kitchen table, where he was cleaning his 1911. I was VERY respectful of him AND her. She had other ideas.
Never turn your back on an angry Dad with a .45. Or a shotgun. Or a mean dog. Or a Louisville Slugger. Just make it easy – don’t p*** off your girlfriend’s Dad, and do NOT turn your back on him if you do.
Teenage Boy 101.
I raised four daughters and every time a new boy came to the house it just happened to be when I was cleaning my pistol. I actually had one boy ask if he could bring his gun and clean it with me. I liked that one.
This conversation reminds me that 41 1/2 years ago, I was required to meet my future wife’s family before we left on a date. I didn’t know it at the time, but her Dad (Asst. Fire Chief) and Grandpa (ret. Police Captain) interrogated me, while her brother (Police Shift Supervisor) ran my plates for priors. I had none, but I was a bit upset when I found our. They could have just asked.
Now, as our 40th approaches I can laugh about it, but I was a tad miffed at the time.
This site riding the dick of tyrant’s and precog real hard lately. Anti red flag, but some of you all would be the first to flag someone.
As I said above, if a person is dangerous to themselves and/or others get them off the street and into custody via due process.
Leaving them in society and taking property will just p$ss them off further or add to whatever makes them nutzo.
Manse, respectfully, you sound somewhat unclear on how due process works. A person would have to prove themselves a danger (ie: commit an act) before action could be taken (ie: when due process could begin). Anything else is circling back, to borrow a phrase, to pre-crime (ie: red flag laws). Or are you assuming they have indeed already committed an actionable act of some kind?
An actionable act that could/would result in what is sometimes referred to as a ’72hr Hold Eval’ was what I was thinking. Laws vary by State for this and it’s not always 72hr. Sometimes it can be longer or shorter.
The problem becomes where to treat/warehouse the actual wackos.
Let me weigh in here.
Multiple school shooters have threatened not only their schools, but individuals, both in and out of the schools, including the Buffalo shooter.
To threaten someone’s life is an assault. To threaten that you will use a firearm to carry out your intent should be considered assault with a deadly weapon. Both are illegal. Depending on the circumstances, both are probably felonies. So, potential shooter has two felonies to contend with just by uttering and/or printing the threat.
Such threats are legitimate grounds for red flag proceedings, at a minimum. But, let’s follow due process. Arrest the perp for his terroristic threats, lock him up, get a warrant and a red flag process going, search his home, and confiscate his weapons.
That should have, could have, stopped the Buffalo shooter, as well as some of the other mass shooters.
The example of strangling cats. I expect this is illegal and punishable by a fine or something but on my opinion the person needs psych evaluation and (hate to say it) involuntary meds (if he wants to not be in the looney bin).
I’m told people who enjoy killing animals have a high probability of graduating to murder.
@Richard Kudrna
“…strangling cats. I expect this is illegal..”
Dogs? Yes! ….not sure about cats though. j/k .. a joke about the superiority of all canines. lol
Rider,
Happy to debate the constitutionality/appropriateness of it, but . . . if you can actually demonstrate, in a hearing where the accused is allowed to be represented, confront witnesses/evidence, etc., that the accused is a “danger to him/herself or others”, you can usually get a “72 hour hold” to evaluate them.
While I’m not a giant fan of “modern” psychology/psychiatry (barely advanced from witch doctors), there ARE some fairly decent “objective” indicators of violent behavior. Animal abuse is a pretty solid indicator (choking cars to death?? What did that Pinto ever do to you – except explode?). Bullying certainly correlates (both ends).
So long as the accused gets to confront the witnesses/evidence “due process” is (at least legally) observed. Now, whether you think that a behavior (animal abuse) that has almost a 50% correlation to serial/mass murderers is sufficient reason to detain that person, or not, is worthy of debate. That is DOES have such a correlation? Nope, actually not debatable. https://time.com/6191947/mass-shootings-animal-cruelty/
Most of these nutjobs have already committed crimes for which they were not prosecuted as they should have been.
Lamp, oh, I agree. I was more referring to unsupported accusations/hearsay/inappropriate determination/etc being considered as ‘actionable’ and I mistakenly took Manses’s comment as including such as viable. My bad. I think both our countries have the measures we can (lawfully) have already in place, the recent “improvements” are just all more and typical virtue signalling/overreach by the usual suspects.
Manse, understood. Didn’t sound right coming from you.
Paul, agreed but it had best be a credible threat.
The problem is defining “a danger to themselves or others”
I get what your intention is, but there is no middle ground here. You either have free speech or you don’t and you are either free or your are not. When someone says you threatened them, unless there is “proof” it’s your word vs. theirs, and how do you think jackboots are going to treat it? However, it’s pretty obvious that most people really are that stupid and think bragging about threats they make won’t come back to bit them in the ass. Saying shit like “I’m going to shoot up a school” or, similar, is a threat for sure. But what happens when it’s your word vs. someone elses with no actual proof? The answer should be nothing. But what you are saying is to hold them regardless. That is no different than all the laws we are against, like waiting periods to “save lives” and red flag laws.
You don’t get it both ways. The government and it’s cronies can turn you into a “threat” quicker than you can log into facebook for simply disagreeing with them. We either draw the line at all things free, or we are oppressors. Make up your mind.
Good points but the recent guy had the past complaints from family and the insane posted content where he clearly indicated that he had compulsions to kill.
I did not think his mental illness was subtle.
“The problem is defining “a danger to themselves or others””
The school/mass shooter definition is: “I woke up this morning.”
And, yet, none of us has “Red Flagged” YOU, Montana. Short of dacian the stupid, or MinorIQ, you are clearly the most deranged person on this forum. Perhaps you are suffering from projection problems????
Lol ok.
U must be the one posting under random names.
I’d love to hear why you think so, but I also don’t give a fuck.
LIKE FINDING A NEEDLE IN THA HAY STACK .
SOME’S TIME THEY DO STOP ~ FIND THE CRIMINAL , CRAZY ONE .
BEFORE SHOOTING / KILLING TIME …
NTexas,
Then why haven’t they arrested you, yet?? Constantly typing in ALL CAPS, babbling incoherently, and deranged fascism (all of which you exhibit on this forum, regularly) are recognized symptoms of mental conditions. Should we “Red Flag” your ass???
Shut the fuck up.
English is probably not their first language. Dumbass. Red flag yourself bootlicker.
It’s always the boomers. Always.
Most, if not all states have laws on the books that provide legal methods, with due process to have people held for evaluation, and possibly have weapons removed from their possession.
The key being due process.
I’ve had to do such things with a brother in law, and a nephew. in 2 different states.
The process was fairly quick, with both the shrinks, and the judge asking questions and the person/patient able to either speak on their own behalf, or have a lawyer or shrink represent them. Both were held for evaluation, and in 1 case I took possession of the weapons, in the other, my sister took the weapons. After they were evaluated and had received counseling and treatment, they had their weapons returned.
Whether suicidal, or possibly homicidal, options are available within the confines of proper due process. And, if used properly, may help to keep some individuals from harming themselves or others.
No, we can’t punish a crime before it happens. Nor can we prevent individuals from doing horrible things in many cases.
What we can do is correct bad behavior from an early age, try to catch those who could act out before they actually cross from minor to major crimes, and stop trying to make having mental health issues into a crime.
Well said.
I haven’t taken an exhaustive survey of previous perps but it seems to me that these people fall into two major categories.
1. The largest category, is people who’ve actually committed crimes or done things that should have gotten them committed to a mental institution. Such people were ignored.
2. The smaller group, people who’ve displayed erratic behavior but not yet been caught crossing the line into actions that could get them locked up in jail or a mental facility.
#2 is a small group but difficult to deal with. #1 seems simple to me, simply apply the laws already on the books.
Pretty much. Given enough people there will always be a few who’s cheese slides off their cracker. Sometimes you can see that happening, other times not. The persistent failures to take appropriate action when required though is a red flag in and of itself. But who will flag the flaggers…
In debating the Red Flag issue, what I care about is due process and the path to restoration of rights. The New Jersey law requires a day in court and firearms rights removal in TEMPORARY,. For permanent removal of gun rights there must be proof of danger to the community.
The Highland Park shooting only serves to demonstrate that Red Flag Laws are not going to have much effect. There’s far too many people involved in the yay or nay of a flag.
It’s rather obvious, that because of Dad’s Political aspirations or connections, this Psychopath was given a pass on the arrest that should have taken place when he threatened others. If it was bad enough that weapons were removed,, it was bad enough to justify his arrest.. He’d previously been given a pass on a Psych Hold after he threatened to off himself. Both times, the Law was not followed to the letter for whatever reason, and that’s where this should have been taken care of right then.
Now I’m not placing the blame on the Cops, but in incident after incident, we’re finding there was previous contact with LE, but hardly, if any at all, repercussions related to those contacts. That needs to change and the passes need to stop being given out. I would note that the responding LEOs probably received orders from superiors telling them to give out a pass. Parkland is an excellent example of this flaw. 19 LEO contacts in the space of a year, with no arrests, referrals, and no adjudication? That’s a Flag in and of itself alone.
There also needs to be a crackdown on Sociopath Media. These sites monitor and crackdown on any and all Conservative conversations, but the monitors totally ignore the violations from the Left. If you or I mention popping a cap in Lefty arses, we’re not only shut down, but the PoPo get a tip that we’re threatening to do violence. But if a Lefty describes the horrific torture they have planned for someone on the Right, nobody stops the conversation, suspends the account and they damn sure don’t drop a dime to the powers that be. That BS needs to stop too.
All I do know for sure, is that none of these Laws will prevent the next Psychopath from killing innocents.
So, just so I’m clear: are we FOR pre-crime arrests now?
There’s usually a lot more to go on than pre-crime assumptions.
That creep in Buffalo got caught strangling a car to death. That right there should’ve gotten him involuntary commitment but we can’t do that anymore since it’s more humane to let psycho head cases just wander the streets as per the ACLU.
The poor car. Was it a sports car, minivan, sedan?
The horror!
I heard it was a convertible, so really it was just asking for it driving around with its top down like that…
“Car” is a typo. He meant “Cat”.
It is not “Pre-Crime”. It is watching for mentally ill people and getting them treated. If found to be dangerous, then due process of law puts them in an institution.
Most cars killed get run over.
Sometimes cars have 9 lives. Once I saw a car that came back to life 9 times after it made a growling sound then stopped moving and just died.
I think one of the strongest indicators of psycho killing is animal torture or killing.
What do you do with such folks?
Try to help them with therapy but at a certain point something more drastic.
I can tell you that animal owners will kill to protect a loved pet.
If the animal is one that tastes good, you invite the person over for BBQ and warm up the grill.
😜
Actually it is NOT a crime to shoot a cat or a dog on your property. AS others have pointed out her. Is mit NOT against the Constitution to pre-judge and arresst for ‘pre-crime’ THis is not bloody TOM CRUISE andfd HOLLYWOOD. If you were to arresr or ban anybody who actre4d ‘odd’ every nbloody gun owner innthe USA would deserve incarceration as representing a ‘potential’ threat to Society. Hey there’s and idea Why would I have to prove you are unbalanced? Why not leave it to you to provide the proof of your own ‘sanity’.
Let every bugger be guilty until proved innocence because that what’s being suggested -Be carful of what you wish for!. The SALEM witchhunts are as nothing in comparison
Guilty until proven innocent is the basis for all gun control laws, dacian.
And with the fascist left you cannot prove your innocence, ever.
A question to ask oneself; imagine you have a family member who has been acting odd and you come across her or him strangling a stray cat. Will you sleep well in the same house ?
Now he suddenly expresses an interest in weapons and babbles like the weird kid did on his rap art about no free will with images of shot people.
Or other weirdness or fantastical nonsense. Will you seek advice from social services? (As you are escaping)
Wow, AJ must be off his meds. He is almost Biden incoherent today.
I’m against ERPO/Red Flag. Period. You don’t get a punishment until/after a crime. Period.
What appears to be happening is low-lifes (low-lives?…hmm…) are committing preliminary actions that should be dealt with at the beginning, but soft Leftist judges and agencies are letting them go with mere slaps on the wrist. So the low-lifes continue on their path of destruction with greater impact.
Haz,
Yes…and worse: completely overlooking bad behavior because correction would evoke howls of racism.
And let’s not overlook the impact of over-medicating (psychotropics) our young people.
Yes, but in the case of Red Flag laws the process is the punishment. No Judge or Magistrate is going to say no to a red flag request. They will not risk it if even it’s completely unwarranted. The judges will not suffer any consequences by saying yes to every one.
It will become the new ‘Swatting’ after a time. I think it’s stupid as h3ll. If a person is dangerous enough to seize property then they need to be seized as well.
“Fear the Man, not the Weapon.” credit to whoever stated this..
Wrong. Used to be we locked up the dangerous crazies all the time, kept them out of circulation. Used to be we didn’t have these mass killings, random killings. We need to rebuild the psych hospitals. Reinstate laws to identify and lock up them up by due process of law.
“Pre-Crime” was a Tom Cruise movie plot, not real life. In real life we do not wait on a rabid animal to bite. We see that the animal is dangerous and act accordingly.
No not at all but can we at least bring suspicious behavior out into the light? Don’t be obviously obtuse.
TexTed, if I understand things correctly it is currently illegal in most jurisdictions to threaten others (Highland Park, Parkland with violence, and to threaten violence at schools (Parkland, Uvalde, Buffalo). Suicide, threatening suicide (Highland Park), and attempting suicide are also generally illegal. While prosecuting successful suicides seems redundant, threats of or attempts at suicide do indicate a need for some sort of intervention. Harming animals (Buffalo, Parkland) is also generally illegal.
So it isn’t about arresting people before they commit any crime, it’s about intervening when they commit lesser crimes that are typical precursors to more serious crimes. For comparison Count Dankula was arrested and prosecuted in Scotland for teaching his girlfriend’s dog to do the Not Z salute as a prank.
Yeah that Count Dankula prosecution about sums up the current state of affairs.
Woke violation will get you jail, threatening to kill your whole family and cutting cats? No problem.
I know my past canines loved to shake hands but I’m not sure they could even physically click their heels. Were they alsations?
There’s usually pre-murder crimes that are not prosecuted as they should be.
Perhaps they should keep an eye on the loose canon beto o’rouke.
dacian. He fits the profile.
Yes he, it, she, zir. ze, zit does.
Zit looks like the correct pronoun. Zit’s a zit on humanity’s arse.
She, he, it………..shorten to s/h/it.
Seems to fit lil’d well.
I worried about my brother when he was an adolescent; he liked to destroy things when angry. I asked mom to get him some help but she shrugged it off. Over the years he held grudges and became more and more introverted. He met and married a woman who turned him around so he was no longer violent, but it could have gone badly for him and others. This was 40 years ago.
So, the only thing that saved us from future shooters is a good woman with a plan?
Don’t be silly. Sounds to me like a good woman with a rolling pin.
Good to read a happy outcome.
A kite won’t fly without the string.
A good woman is the string.
I’m glad it worked out for all concerned, but usually it doesn’t work that way per the Stats. He was one of the exceptions to the rule.
We can’t actually do anything with a known, obvious and dangerous nut job before a mass shooting because the Constitution is a suicide pact.
No it’s certainly not, but it was also written for viruous, responsible and decent human beings that were joined in a common effort. This was well known and spoken of at the time. Possibly the American public education system since 1968, and unquestionably the college and university system have destroyed that part of American society, or at least reduced much of it to a lawyer-driven, me-first situation.
Do you honestly not think the left would weaponize pre crime against us? Who defines “known, obvious and dangerous nut job”?
You’re usually intelligent and insightful, but what you said above is simply insane. Are you drunk?
Red,
“Do you honestly not think the left would weaponize pre crime against us?” Ummm . . . they already HAVE, Red???? WTF do you think “Red Flag” laws are???? The fascist Left hates due process, just like they hate ALL “constitutional” rights – except the made-up ones like “freedom from fear of violence” or “freedom from hate speech”.
Ralph, I get the first part of course but I’m curious about your reasoning on the second part. Not seeing the angle.
He’s being sarcastic.
Who, Ralph?? 😉 Usually my sarc meter is pretty well regulated. I’ll check it’s calibration, perhaps some fine tuning is required…
Make sure you check the impedance on the sardonic harmonizer.
Not a bad point since they always argue that it’s not a suicide pact, which is why gun control is totally legit!
I have an idea!! Let’s hold pharmaceutical companies, whose psychotropic drugs cause suicidal and homicidal ideation, accountable when their consumers commit suicide or homicide. The same for the shrinks who prescribe those drugs. After all, they market those drugs as a way to keep people safe and acting “normally”, making the marketing mis-leading and dangerous.
Guns do not kill people, but drugs do.
I like that. Great idea! If Remington can be sued for advertising……..
Are psychotropic drugs ever tested for effects with nicotine, alcohol, cannabis, or meth, because many using these drugs will self-medicate with other substances.
Saw a good t-shirt today. Think I am going to buy one:
“Guns do not kill people.
But fathers of pretty daughters do.”
When her suitors come a’callin…..
‘Husbands that come home from work early kill people.’
Good thing I work from home!
Smirk!
If we were released from duty early I always told my soldiers to call House 6 and let her know so they wouldn’t surprise her or be surprised coming home early.
I like the old Harley commercial where a guy n girl are in bed and they hear a bike pull up. She says “he’s here!” and the guy jumps out of bed in a panic and hides in the closet. The biker dude walks into the house, looks around, slowly walks to the bedroom, stares at her and then gets on the bed. As he’s bending down over her you see her arm reach toward the nightstand and flip down a wedding picture of her and the closet dude.
My future father in law ran me out of the house with a gunm stuck in my back when his wife caught me and my future wife in bed.
“house 6” I haven’t heard that term but I like the concept of calling ahead.
Missouri_Mule – House 6 is a play on the Call signs of the Commanders of Army units. The commander call sign was the Unit nickname followed by the numeral 6.
I like the T-Shirt’s that read
“Yes, I have a beautiful daughter. I also have a gun, a shovel, and an alibi”
.40,
I like it!
My dad would have liked that T-Shirt.
My dad and mom were very protective of us kids. My dad though was especially protective of my sister when a boy came to pick her up for a date. My sister had to have the boy come inside and meet the parents if this was a first date.
She absolutely hated to do that with first dates, so she would warn them that dad could be ‘assertive’. And the reason was because when the boys came in they found my Dad sitting in his favorite chair with the shotgun. He would rack the shotgun, and say in this menacing tone “lets talk about how you are to treat my daughter.” and if the boy didn’t high tail it out the door (some did) he would tell them “That’s my daughter” then lay out the rules about treating her with the utmost respect and having her home by a certain time and a whole list of things. Then he would put the shotgun across his lap with both hands on it and lean forward and say in that menacing tone “Got it?” and the boy is all about “Yes sir…Yes I understand..yes sir … most definitely… yes sir” and is ready to get out the door as quickly as he can.
My brother and I joked about that shot gun. We called it the ‘date gun’ to irritate our sister.
Some of the first date boys did not ask for further dates, but some did and she ended up marrying one of them later in life after they met again at college and fell in love. Great brother in law. They had two daughters. My dad passed on before he could see his grand daughters but he left me all his guns and among them is that shot gun. One of the daughters was asking if she could go out with boys, my brother in law asked to borrow the ‘date gun’.
I’ve got a friend with 500 acres and a backhoe.
I upgraded to excavators decades ago. Bigger, faster, deeper holes. Only got a few acres though, startin to run out of ground…
Rider, I have an old backhoe. Will make a nice 6ft deep hole of proper size in about 10 minutes. I also have 640 acres with a couple garden plots, and the other trappings of a homestead farm. Of course, the hydraulics will be broken if anyone wants to dig around here, so I will happily hand them a spade and let them have at it.
I believe the saying was “Shoot, Shovel, Shut up”.
Oldmanimal, I’m jealous (the homestead, not the old backhoe, been there, done that). And yup, words to live by I think.
Befriend a Pig Farmer. The Dana’s useless after going through Porky’s gut.
One of my high school girlfriends’ dad’s actually did greet me, when I came to pick her up for our first official “date”, at the kitchen table, where he was cleaning his 1911. I was VERY respectful of him AND her. She had other ideas.
Never turn your back on an angry Dad with a .45. Or a shotgun. Or a mean dog. Or a Louisville Slugger. Just make it easy – don’t p*** off your girlfriend’s Dad, and do NOT turn your back on him if you do.
Teenage Boy 101.
I raised four daughters and every time a new boy came to the house it just happened to be when I was cleaning my pistol. I actually had one boy ask if he could bring his gun and clean it with me. I liked that one.
This conversation reminds me that 41 1/2 years ago, I was required to meet my future wife’s family before we left on a date. I didn’t know it at the time, but her Dad (Asst. Fire Chief) and Grandpa (ret. Police Captain) interrogated me, while her brother (Police Shift Supervisor) ran my plates for priors. I had none, but I was a bit upset when I found our. They could have just asked.
Now, as our 40th approaches I can laugh about it, but I was a tad miffed at the time.
This site riding the dick of tyrant’s and precog real hard lately. Anti red flag, but some of you all would be the first to flag someone.
As I said above, if a person is dangerous to themselves and/or others get them off the street and into custody via due process.
Leaving them in society and taking property will just p$ss them off further or add to whatever makes them nutzo.
Manse, respectfully, you sound somewhat unclear on how due process works. A person would have to prove themselves a danger (ie: commit an act) before action could be taken (ie: when due process could begin). Anything else is circling back, to borrow a phrase, to pre-crime (ie: red flag laws). Or are you assuming they have indeed already committed an actionable act of some kind?
An actionable act that could/would result in what is sometimes referred to as a ’72hr Hold Eval’ was what I was thinking. Laws vary by State for this and it’s not always 72hr. Sometimes it can be longer or shorter.
The problem becomes where to treat/warehouse the actual wackos.
Let me weigh in here.
Multiple school shooters have threatened not only their schools, but individuals, both in and out of the schools, including the Buffalo shooter.
To threaten someone’s life is an assault. To threaten that you will use a firearm to carry out your intent should be considered assault with a deadly weapon. Both are illegal. Depending on the circumstances, both are probably felonies. So, potential shooter has two felonies to contend with just by uttering and/or printing the threat.
Such threats are legitimate grounds for red flag proceedings, at a minimum. But, let’s follow due process. Arrest the perp for his terroristic threats, lock him up, get a warrant and a red flag process going, search his home, and confiscate his weapons.
That should have, could have, stopped the Buffalo shooter, as well as some of the other mass shooters.
The example of strangling cats. I expect this is illegal and punishable by a fine or something but on my opinion the person needs psych evaluation and (hate to say it) involuntary meds (if he wants to not be in the looney bin).
I’m told people who enjoy killing animals have a high probability of graduating to murder.
@Richard Kudrna
“…strangling cats. I expect this is illegal..”
Dogs? Yes! ….not sure about cats though. j/k .. a joke about the superiority of all canines. lol
Rider,
Happy to debate the constitutionality/appropriateness of it, but . . . if you can actually demonstrate, in a hearing where the accused is allowed to be represented, confront witnesses/evidence, etc., that the accused is a “danger to him/herself or others”, you can usually get a “72 hour hold” to evaluate them.
While I’m not a giant fan of “modern” psychology/psychiatry (barely advanced from witch doctors), there ARE some fairly decent “objective” indicators of violent behavior. Animal abuse is a pretty solid indicator (choking cars to death?? What did that Pinto ever do to you – except explode?). Bullying certainly correlates (both ends).
So long as the accused gets to confront the witnesses/evidence “due process” is (at least legally) observed. Now, whether you think that a behavior (animal abuse) that has almost a 50% correlation to serial/mass murderers is sufficient reason to detain that person, or not, is worthy of debate. That is DOES have such a correlation? Nope, actually not debatable. https://time.com/6191947/mass-shootings-animal-cruelty/
Most of these nutjobs have already committed crimes for which they were not prosecuted as they should have been.
Lamp, oh, I agree. I was more referring to unsupported accusations/hearsay/inappropriate determination/etc being considered as ‘actionable’ and I mistakenly took Manses’s comment as including such as viable. My bad. I think both our countries have the measures we can (lawfully) have already in place, the recent “improvements” are just all more and typical virtue signalling/overreach by the usual suspects.
Manse, understood. Didn’t sound right coming from you.
Paul, agreed but it had best be a credible threat.
The problem is defining “a danger to themselves or others”
I get what your intention is, but there is no middle ground here. You either have free speech or you don’t and you are either free or your are not. When someone says you threatened them, unless there is “proof” it’s your word vs. theirs, and how do you think jackboots are going to treat it? However, it’s pretty obvious that most people really are that stupid and think bragging about threats they make won’t come back to bit them in the ass. Saying shit like “I’m going to shoot up a school” or, similar, is a threat for sure. But what happens when it’s your word vs. someone elses with no actual proof? The answer should be nothing. But what you are saying is to hold them regardless. That is no different than all the laws we are against, like waiting periods to “save lives” and red flag laws.
You don’t get it both ways. The government and it’s cronies can turn you into a “threat” quicker than you can log into facebook for simply disagreeing with them. We either draw the line at all things free, or we are oppressors. Make up your mind.
Good points but the recent guy had the past complaints from family and the insane posted content where he clearly indicated that he had compulsions to kill.
I did not think his mental illness was subtle.
“The problem is defining “a danger to themselves or others””
The school/mass shooter definition is: “I woke up this morning.”
And, yet, none of us has “Red Flagged” YOU, Montana. Short of dacian the stupid, or MinorIQ, you are clearly the most deranged person on this forum. Perhaps you are suffering from projection problems????
Lol ok.
U must be the one posting under random names.
I’d love to hear why you think so, but I also don’t give a fuck.
LIKE FINDING A NEEDLE IN THA HAY STACK .
SOME’S TIME THEY DO STOP ~ FIND THE CRIMINAL , CRAZY ONE .
BEFORE SHOOTING / KILLING TIME …
NTexas,
Then why haven’t they arrested you, yet?? Constantly typing in ALL CAPS, babbling incoherently, and deranged fascism (all of which you exhibit on this forum, regularly) are recognized symptoms of mental conditions. Should we “Red Flag” your ass???
Shut the fuck up.
English is probably not their first language. Dumbass. Red flag yourself bootlicker.
It’s always the boomers. Always.
Most, if not all states have laws on the books that provide legal methods, with due process to have people held for evaluation, and possibly have weapons removed from their possession.
The key being due process.
I’ve had to do such things with a brother in law, and a nephew. in 2 different states.
The process was fairly quick, with both the shrinks, and the judge asking questions and the person/patient able to either speak on their own behalf, or have a lawyer or shrink represent them. Both were held for evaluation, and in 1 case I took possession of the weapons, in the other, my sister took the weapons. After they were evaluated and had received counseling and treatment, they had their weapons returned.
Whether suicidal, or possibly homicidal, options are available within the confines of proper due process. And, if used properly, may help to keep some individuals from harming themselves or others.
No, we can’t punish a crime before it happens. Nor can we prevent individuals from doing horrible things in many cases.
What we can do is correct bad behavior from an early age, try to catch those who could act out before they actually cross from minor to major crimes, and stop trying to make having mental health issues into a crime.
Well said.
I haven’t taken an exhaustive survey of previous perps but it seems to me that these people fall into two major categories.
1. The largest category, is people who’ve actually committed crimes or done things that should have gotten them committed to a mental institution. Such people were ignored.
2. The smaller group, people who’ve displayed erratic behavior but not yet been caught crossing the line into actions that could get them locked up in jail or a mental facility.
#2 is a small group but difficult to deal with. #1 seems simple to me, simply apply the laws already on the books.
Pretty much. Given enough people there will always be a few who’s cheese slides off their cracker. Sometimes you can see that happening, other times not. The persistent failures to take appropriate action when required though is a red flag in and of itself. But who will flag the flaggers…
In debating the Red Flag issue, what I care about is due process and the path to restoration of rights. The New Jersey law requires a day in court and firearms rights removal in TEMPORARY,. For permanent removal of gun rights there must be proof of danger to the community.
The Highland Park shooting only serves to demonstrate that Red Flag Laws are not going to have much effect. There’s far too many people involved in the yay or nay of a flag.
It’s rather obvious, that because of Dad’s Political aspirations or connections, this Psychopath was given a pass on the arrest that should have taken place when he threatened others. If it was bad enough that weapons were removed,, it was bad enough to justify his arrest.. He’d previously been given a pass on a Psych Hold after he threatened to off himself. Both times, the Law was not followed to the letter for whatever reason, and that’s where this should have been taken care of right then.
Now I’m not placing the blame on the Cops, but in incident after incident, we’re finding there was previous contact with LE, but hardly, if any at all, repercussions related to those contacts. That needs to change and the passes need to stop being given out. I would note that the responding LEOs probably received orders from superiors telling them to give out a pass. Parkland is an excellent example of this flaw. 19 LEO contacts in the space of a year, with no arrests, referrals, and no adjudication? That’s a Flag in and of itself alone.
There also needs to be a crackdown on Sociopath Media. These sites monitor and crackdown on any and all Conservative conversations, but the monitors totally ignore the violations from the Left. If you or I mention popping a cap in Lefty arses, we’re not only shut down, but the PoPo get a tip that we’re threatening to do violence. But if a Lefty describes the horrific torture they have planned for someone on the Right, nobody stops the conversation, suspends the account and they damn sure don’t drop a dime to the powers that be. That BS needs to stop too.
All I do know for sure, is that none of these Laws will prevent the next Psychopath from killing innocents.
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