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Extreme risk protection orders, gun violence restraining orders, or, as they’re increasingly being known, “red flag” laws are now in place in 14 states and under consideration at the federal level. The problem with every one of these laws is that they violate the due process rights of the person targeted by the order. They’re another step in slow-motion confiscation, based on nothing more than a suspicion.

Little certainty is needed. Some states allow initial confiscations on just a “reasonable suspicion,” which is little more than a guess or a hunch. Others at least mandate “probable cause” that the individual is dangerous. These standards allow a judge to take away a person’s right to self-defense when there is significantly less than 50 percent chance of something bad happening.

Only one state’s law mentions mental illness. The individuals who are identifying who they think are dangerous do so on an “I will know it when I see it” standard. In practice, a person’s criminal history, gender and age help decide who is a danger. But we already have laws that say felons, even non-violent ones, can’t own guns.

Even misdemeanor violations can cost you your right to own a gun. Gun control advocates want to take firearms away from people arrested but not convicted of crimes. Their unwillingness to make that explicit indicates that they are afraid that courts would strike down such laws.

It has always been possible to take away someone’s guns, but all 50 states have required testimony by a mental health expert before a judge. Hearings could be conducted very quickly in urgent cases, But gun control advocates argue that it’s important to not even alert the person that his guns may be taken away. Hence, the 5 a.m. police raids.

– John Lott in The folly of ‘Red Flag’ gun laws

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69 COMMENTS

  1. Funny how the ACLU doesn’t care about certain rights for certain people….just sayin’…

    • American Civil Liberties Union, Southern Poverty Law Center, birds of a feather flock together.

      • actually the ACLU has been critical of the tactics of the SPLC….for what it’s worth…

        • Not alot, my guess, the ACLU barely even cares about the 1st amendment anymore. They’re concern about the 2nd is laughable.

          Only reason they dont like the SPLC is they dont like the competition.

  2. Remember when the libs were screaming about due process for the entire GW administration then suddenly stopped for Obama? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

    Liberals larping as civil rights crusaders.

  3. It’s kind of odd how there’s a push to reform civil asset forfeiture laws and at the same time a push for red flag laws which are essentially the same thing – cops stealing your stuff without even charging you with a crime and making it damn near impossible to get it back.

    • “It’s kind of odd how there’s a push to reform civil asset forfeiture laws…”

      That ‘push’ came to a ‘shove’ already :

      “Supreme Court Limits Police Powers to Seize Private Property”

      “The Supreme Court ruled on Wednesday that the Constitution places limits on the ability of states and localities to take and keep cash, cars, houses and other private property used to commit crimes.”

      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/20/us/politics/civil-asset-forfeiture-supreme-court.html

      Start setting up the ‘red-flag’ lawsuit dominoes and knock ’em down…

      • I don’t doubt that any non-activist judge would find them in violation of 4 amendments in the Bill of Rights, but it might take decades for a SCOTUS ruling. In the meantime, the 5:00am SWAT raids will continue.

    • Standard Progresshevik procedure. The only way to pay for Universal basic Income and Medicare For All is to seize the assets and savings of the “disarmed” middle and upper classes.
      Due process just gets in the way and must be discarded.

    • Might as well. We’ve already been Amerika for longer than I’ve been alive. And I’m a graybeard now.
      Kreeping socialism has been stalking freedom for many hundreds of generations. Sheeple fall for it easily because it sounds good on the surface. Its got a really pretty coat of paint on top, but once the facade chips off it’s really nasty underneath.

  5. And what little “protection” is built into the law, will be widely ignored.

    Example: In Vermont, they can take your guns if YOU are alleged to be a threat.
    But one judge there famously ordered a man’s guns taken away because a kid he never met (a kid who was in police custody anyway) was alleged to be a threat. The facts that the kid was under state control, the guns were locked in a safe, and the law not allowing confiscation under the circumstances were not impediments at all.

    Then they released the guns to a friend of the owner, so the owner can have supervised visitation, and patted themselves on their lawbreaking tyrant backs for being so generous as to let a man clean his own guns at somebody else’s house but not use or possess them.

    • Listen to him folks, as a fellow Vermonter, I can attest to what he’s said. We used to be the place to go if you wanted NO gun laws, now we’re a test tube for the liberals who’ve taken over our legislature, to be an example for Commiefornia! Beans, bullets and bandages!

    • “And what little “protection” is built into the law, will be widely ignored.”

      “Example: In Vermont, they can take your guns if YOU are alleged to be a threat.
      But one judge there famously ordered a man’s guns taken away because a kid he never met (a kid who was in police custody anyway) was alleged to be a threat. The facts that the kid was under state control, the guns were locked in a safe, and the law not allowing confiscation under the circumstances were not impediments at all.”

      “Then they released the guns to a friend of the owner, so the owner can have supervised visitation, and patted themselves on their lawbreaking tyrant backs for being so generous as to let a man clean his own guns at somebody else’s house but not use or possess them.”

      The so called protections Failed because they were written to be Ignored by the Fascist Taliban Gunz Confiscation squad headed up by the good egg from the neighborhood,who is the A.G. .
      All of it “Failed We The People of Vermont.”

  6. A couple of Diane Feinstein’s bodyguards were concealed carrying and made me feel uncomfortable. I mean… …they didn’t actually threaten me but I FELT threatened. That’s what counts right?

    • Only when you happen to be one of the favored classes. Your feelings and my feelings mean nothing. We are their declared enemy, and they will stop at nothing to destroy us. No low down, underhanded trick is too vile. That’s the way fundamentalists ‘think’.

      • “Only when you happen to be one of the favored classes.”

        So put on a dress, lipstick and heels for the judge. Instant favored class status and you can just take it off without losing the status. If anyone questions why you’re no longer cross dressing just claim to be “gender fluid”. Explain that when seriously stressed or feeling threatened you become a woman.

        People already do exactly this kind of shit for other things. No one is allowed to question it so take advantage of that.

  9. When an arrest warrant is issued, they can come arrest you and throw you in jail. You don’t get to defend yourself until you post bail and hire a lawyer. Can someone familiar with the actual laws explain how red flags are different from arrest warrants? A judge has to approve them based on the evidence presented, correct?

    • The difference is; A warrant is just an allegation. It MUST be followed by due process. But if it turns out that the warrant was issued under false pretenses, the target of the warrant can sue the State, and will generally win.
      https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-metro-urinal-arrest-20180716-story.html
      No such ‘protection’ is in the ERPOs. The cop(or disgruntled ex-wife) who reported the one targeted is protected from the consequences of their unlawful actions.

      • So, once a red flag is approved by a judge, you have no recourse? That’s the end of it, and you can never own firearms again? Obviously, if true, that’s really bad. Can you reference a specific law for this?

        • It is not that you would have no recourse, it’s that they can just do the dirty deed to you, but then never follow through with any charges. That would leave you forced to sue at your own expense just to attempt to clear up the problems created by those who just want to harass and vilify.
          It is the very definition of “guilty until proven innocent”. They force you to spend your money and time fighting to prove a negative. Forbidden by US law, but they do it anyway. They’re just a way to easily harass whoever the system chooses to dislike.
          If this was Nazi Germany, we gun owners are the Jews. Those the authorities have chosen to be harassed and harried out of existence. Hopefully, we’ve learned enough to not let them destroy half of the world this time around.

        • “If this was Nazi Germany, we gun owners are the Jews.”

          The future of these kinds of laws are pretty clear when you look at examples from history. It will be used to disarm groups that oppose the government in any way. If Jews oppose laws that attack religious rights or Israel, Jews may find themselves being disarmed much like the Nazis did to them many years ago.

    • ” Can someone familiar with the actual laws explain how red flags are different from arrest warrants?”

      The biggest problem it that the bar is lowered into the ground for the red flag laws. The cops are not going to come and arrest you on just a called in tip. A judge is not going to issue warrant for your arrest because someone said that your are depressed. Cops are not going to arrest you because your wife said so. They are going to investigate first. The gun grabbing, not so much.

      But then again, all the TAG people will scream their head off the next time some mass shooter was “identified” but they were not stopped before the shooting.

      • “But then again, all the TAG people will scream their head off the next time some mass shooter was “identified” but they were not stopped before the shooting.”

        Not all, not all, but most (some?).

        You won’t read that from me. Given enough time, all gun owners who cherish their liberty will be “unlawful”.

        • That was a cop who requested a search warrant that later turned out to be B.S. now he is having to deal with it. If the cops really want to get a search warrant, there is not a lot to stop them. The take a risk when they do it though.

    • The difference is pretty simple. With red flag laws, you are deprived of a right and of property without being even accused of having committed a crime and then you do have to prove your innocence to get both back. Good luck with that! This already doesn’t work with civil asset forfeiture.

      How about law enforcement arrests everyone who someone else said is dangerous and could commit a crime? Then those arrested have to prove in a court of law that they are not dangerous and should be released. That would be an equivalent analogy.

    • Walter,

      There are a few very important differences between an arrest warrant and a “red flag” order.

      First:
      Judges are only supposed to issue an arrest warrant after police present evidence that the subject of the warrant committed a crime. Contrast “red flag” orders where a judge can issue a confiscation order based on an unsubstantiated allegation of a close family member or police officer. No evidence is necessary and the subject did not have to commit any crime. It should be apparent that there is a big difference between evidence of a crime already committed and unsubstantiated allegations of desire to commit a crime in the future.

      Second:
      After police arrest a person, the suspect has almost immediate recourse in terms of preliminary hearings, posting bail, and motions for the court to suppress evidence or even drop the criminal charges. Many/most “red flag” orders have no immediate recourse at all, and it could be upwards of a year before you even get a hearing.

      Third:
      After police arrest someone, they eventually go to trial where the state has to prove the subject’s guilt. With a “red flag” order, if the subject ever gets a hearing, the subject of the order has to prove that he/she is NOT a danger to society. This turns our presumption of innocence upside-down.

      Fourth:
      It sounds like people who were arrested and acquitted generally do not have too much trouble getting their property (seized at time of arrest) back in a reasonable time frame. I have heard reports that subjects of “red flag” orders can expect a drawn out and expensive legal process (lawsuit) to get their firearms back in many jurisdictions. The concern that I have heard is that the legal expenses will usually exceed the value of the firearms.

      Fifth:
      People who submit evidence for arrest warrants are under penalty of perjury and face felony prosecution if they falsify or lie about evidence. People who lie about “red flag” orders face no such jeopardy since they can present unsubstantiated allegations. And in practice most prosecutors would be extremely reluctant to prosecute anyone caught lying about a “red flag” order for various reasons.

      There is another concern that is not mentioned as widely. Will being the subject of a “red flag” order disqualify you from being able to purchase/possess additional firearms? If so, how long with this impediment exist? Will there be a process to remove the impediment? How expensive will it be go through that process?

      Make no mistake, all of these “red flag” laws are an abomination.

      • Thanks for the replies. That sounds pretty bad. Of course you can sue, but you could possibly be without firearms while that gets settled. Sometimes there are laws that are broken. People forget that you can’t go around telling people that you’re going to kill them. That’s actually criminal assault. It’s just never enforced. I’ll try to read up on some of the actual laws, but if you’re telling someone that you’re going to kill them, then you should have to forfeit your rights.

        • Walter,

          A specific, credible threat to murder someone is felonious assault and actionable. Note that the threat to murder someone has to be specific and credible.

          The problem with “red flag” laws is that a family member could simply say that their brother is super angry, deranged, and purchased a shotgun so he is a threat! That is not anywhere near the same as a specific, credible threat to murder someone.

  10. Red Flag Laws are creating a means to revoke all rights for anyone who does not support the Party Line. So, it turns-out the American Constitutional Republic will implode because the Founders never envisioned that the Liberty and Natural Civil Rights they sought to protect via the Constitution and Bill of Rights would be turned against the People by Tyrants claiming to be the only “legitimate” representatives of the Republic and an electorate too stupid and cowardly to recognize they are being duped en masse into accepting totalitarianism. Wow! THIS has never happened before.

    • “because the Founders never envisioned that the Liberty and Natural Civil Rights they sought to protect via the Constitution and Bill of Rights would be turned against the People”

      They envisioned it and people wrote about it. They knew that they couldn’t protect future generations that were unwilling to fight for their own liberty. Once government no longer fears the people, this is the result. Speak out about it and many POTG will come out of the woodwork, shriek and denounce you as some sort of lunatic or liberal. POTG virtue signalling at its finest.

      • “what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. … the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants.” -Thomas Jefferson
        http://tjrs.monticello.org/letter/100
        Sounds like Jefferson, for at least one, agrees with John. Many other of the founders also. They left warnings by the hundreds that exactly this creeping infringement would occur. We just didn’t listen.

      • “They knew that they couldn’t protect future generations that were unwilling to fight for their own liberty. Once government no longer fears the people, this is the result.”

        Exactly.

  11. erpo laws will only lead to bloodshed of honest good people we’ve already seen it but they don’t care maybe they will when cops get blasted through the door for trying to enforce bullshit laws

  12. These red flag laws are a formula for getting someone killed or seriously injured, as has already happened. The fact that there hasn’t been more resistance is probably due more to the shock tactics of the police enforcing these un-Constitutional laws. That could change as the more militant among us vow not to comply.

  13. I will not COMPLY, nor will I voluntary resister or surrender firearms.

    I’m done with Marxist. It’s 1775 time to choose a side.

    Patrick Henry “Give Mr Liberty, or give me death”. Death always wins. Die a Patriot or live enslaved in a totalitarian state. Democide (Death by government) always follows Confiscation according to the University of Hawaii. Not exactly supporters of the 2nd Amendment. https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/POWER.ART.HTM

    Registration, Confiscation, Genocide the Marxist history of the Twentieth Century. Do I think Marxist Millennials will kill us if they get their Marxist Utopia? Or send us to the Gulag, Re-education Camps, or Hillary “Fun Camps? Of course they will that’s what they do. Listen to Bernie Sanders he’s a Communist not a Socialist. He even boldly stated he would take over the means of production. The Goal of Socialism is Communism. Just read the comments tag The Hill and other news sites.

    The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights are just an obstacle.

  14. I will not COMPLY, nor will I voluntary resister or surrender firearms.

    I’m done with Marxist. It’s 1775 time to choose a side.

    Patrick Henry “Give Mr Liberty, or give me death”. Death always wins. Die a Patriot or live enslaved in a totalitarian state. Democide (Death by government) always follows Confiscation according to the University of Hawaii. Not exactly supporters of the 2nd Amendment. https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/POWER.ART.HTM

    Registration, Confiscation, Genocide the Marxist history of the Twentieth Century. Do I think Marxist Millennials will kill us if they get their Marxist Utopia? Or send us to the Gulag, Re-education Camps, or Hillary “Fun Camps? Of course they will that’s what they do. Listen to Bernie Sanders he’s a Communist not a Socialist. He even boldly stated he would take over the means of production. The Goal of Socialism is Communism. Just read the comments at The Hill and other news sites.

    The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights are just an obstacle.

    Reposted, I miss the edit button.

  15. Say wasn’t the “shot heard ’round the world” a Red Coat er Red Flag operation? Kinda sorta?!? OR WHY we have a 2nd Amendment…

  16. I’m in FL. A friend of mines ex-wife obtained a domestic restraining order against him regarding their teenage child. Super easy for her to do.

    Why you say? Well she hates him and knows he’s a semi-pro sporting clay shooter. That’s right, he had to get rid of all his guns and ammo.

    I bought them all through his lawyer for a dollar so he didn’t have to hand over his collection to the police. He’s since won through the court system and is in the “process” of having his gun rights restored. That process has been going on for months.

    My point is these laws are to easily weaponized. The question I would like answered is how many times does a judge say NO?

    I think the answer is zero which makes our point .

  17. It’s already been going on, just not legally and they know who they can prey upon and who they cannot. Unfortunately, I live not far from a left wing “rainbow” college town, if you catch my drift? I only go to town for supplies and promptly leave. The town thrives off the college kids, etc. Many years back, my son befriended another little boy on the bus 🚌 and eventually they were wanting to spend the night and it was usually the little boy at our place all weekend. This little boy would have nightmares, wet the bed and so while my woman was cleaning things up for him to ho back to bed, he would sit in my lap and I would calm him and he would tell me things. Eventually, I found out his mother was a stripper and worked in the bars when not stripping, was hooked on drugs and the little boy had no father. One time he asked me if I would adopt him and it just crushed me. I knew his mother would never go for it, so I felt so bad for him and I continued to let the boys be friends even though the stripper was exposing my son to bad things behind my back that I never knew about until way later, plus I noticed that my truck was being vandalized occasionally, especially when I went to town and I reported it, but I was treated very poorly by the local law enf and couldn’t figure it out. I also had a republican bumper sticker of a local politician that firmly supports constitutional carry for over a decade. It was like placing a bullseye on my truck. In addition, years before, when the little boy asked me to adopt him and I told him that I didn’t think that his mother would approve of it, but that he was still welcome and I mentored him as best I could. Unbeknownst to me, the boy went home that time and asked his stripper mother if I could adopt him. OMG! His mother being involved in drugs and all the other stuff, assumed that I was trying to steal her son away from her, as we occasionally took him to church with us, so she began to aggressively attack me behind my back. For years, his mother was phoning DSS and making false statements about me and doctoring the young boy’s against me. I had no idea whatsoever, plus law enf was stalking me whenever I went to town. I thought maybe they were just watching over my truck for me? Good deal, right? Wrong.. Besides the scratches, dings and such, even my windshield was cracked all the way across. I couldn’t get any help and they never followed up on cameras to see who was doing it, college kids who hated this politician. So, I finally caved in after three sliced tires and took the bumper sticker off. I was getting no respect from local law enf, plus not knowing about the stripper mom on that was later busted for meth, that had been pounding the drums against me for years. So instead of just communicating with me about the accusations that I could have promptly cleared up, I would think so anyway? They let it boil and just stalked me, even knowing my former law enf employment. So, essentially, my empathy towards her son turned out to backfire against me with the strippers paranoid delusional thinking. Things got much worse to where I was arrested by a small gang of rookie officers, never read my rights or even told what I was being arrested for and sat in a holding tank for a few hours with false accusations that were later dismissed in court for complete lack of evidence, but a few days later after the initial arrest, the first question was “Are there any guns in the house?” This happened once before at a doctors visit with my son for a sports physical and I was stunned and we never went back again. WTF? Plus, I couldn’t even go home and see my own kids for a month, because of this left wing female judge and all her false information from the stripper that thought I was trying to take her son away and a rainbow courthouse in the college town. I was treated like shit by everyone and never figured it all out until three plus years afterwards what “exactly” went down from the kids that had grown and must have felt bad, idk? So, my rights were violated, I was arrested under false information, not a shred of evidence and almost shot by a rookie (day of arrest) with a hot temper that tried to man handle me and promptly found out that he couldn’t, nor could two of them together. Another deputy had to restrain the rookie trooper and pin him up against the house to get him to holster his weapon, while I stood there in cuffs, that I allowed to be placed on me that were clamped on so tight that I got permanent nerve damage in one forearm, because their lack of skills to apply cuffs, calmly watching the whole thing. The one deputy wanted to turn me loose, but the rookie trooper got his pride hurt and insisted that I go to jail for resisting his heavy handed out of control attack on me that came out of nowhere! It was all very surreal and unbelievable. Over the years, I watched this once innocent little boy, that I tried to mentor from afar. Get hooked on his mother’s drugs so bad, that she even allowed him to drop out of school at fifteen and he repeatedly got arrested, hates authority and no longer has any feeling in his fingers from doing so much meth. Swat busted her door down a few times because of stolen guns and drugs that were locked up in safes inside her home. Looking back, everyone says, you have a law suit! Yeah, right.. Who’s going to take on the county for me? No one, that’s who..
    My mistake was taking pity on her and her son and trying to keep him on a path to a brighter future. I’ll never do anything like that again in this day and age.
    Protect your own and don’t expect to be treated fair by these young fellas or courthouses now days.
    I’ve left out other details, but you get the point.
    Trust me..

    • You have my empathy.

      I had a case where it came out that someone had been making false allegations at the sheriff’s office for years. Some of those times, I was all the way across the state in grad school. Each time, the “victim” would say that they just wanted the “incident” documented “in case.” There was a friggin’ stack of those reports. Thankfully, three different consecutive sheriff’s knew me pretty well but they weren’t able to tell me about the reports because of their position (and I respect them to this day for no special treatment) until one final report produced a false charge. I was arrested, held in jail, and had to send my firearms to my gunsmith friend. The case was eventually dismissed and I got the case expunged pro se a week after the judgement was journalized. I can only imagine how life would’ve been with Red Flag laws.

    • Check out the story of Barry Beach. He’s been in prison since 1983 for a crime we know he didn’t commit. It was likely the deputy’s daughter and her friends that did the deed. They were seen chasing the victim out of town, but the deputy managed to ‘loose’ that guy’s statement behind a filing cabinet until after the ‘trial’ was over.
      Our system of injustice at work. Just situation normal.

  18. WHERE is the ACLU??? Since “Red Flags” seem to be that easy to instigate how about a concerted effort to use them on politicians? Give them a taste of their own medicine. Even for pols who don’t own guns just for the hell of it. It has to be stopped because the Democrats WILL use the system at some point to get everybody’s guns without repealing the Second Amendment. So far there seem to be no repercussions about instigating a “Red Flag”.

    • Colorado no due process and no repercussions for false accusations.

      The only repercussions are when you refuse to comply. Then all they need to know is how many body bags.

      • AFAIK, neither does CA under their red flag law. And, iirc, CA can basically come take them if they get ‘a plausible report’.

  19. “Lott: Red Flag Laws are Due Process-Free Confiscation Based On Nothing More Than a Hunch”

    OR based on vengeance…anyone can claim, at any time, that you’re a danger to yourself or others, or that they “fear” you, circumventing due process…red flag laws are pathetic…

    • including people you disagreed with at work, even if the disagreement was failing to toe the party line for the latest progressive groupthink… they just say they ‘think you’re dangerous’ and you ‘make them feel unsafe’ and The End for your gun collection.

  20. I need a little help here. Are only firearms included in the Red Flag laws? Or, is it any weapon that can be considered deadly. Law would deem to be prejudiced against firearms otherwise. Can you imagine Red Flagging paring knives (stabbing), pillows (smothering), liquids no poisons (drowning). You get the point. This could drive back us to cave people. No, wait they had clubs and rocks. Even Eve had a poisoned apple. Go back to the Big Bang?

    • blame the republicans…including trump…for getting the ball rolling on this crap…

      • That simply isn’t true and that’s what makes it worse.

        It’s one thing to have a situation that looks good on paper but doesn’t work in reality and then say “Oh, well that didn’t work, let’s try something else”. It’s entirely different to have a situation where you know this doesn’t work in reality because it’s already been tried and you decide to do it anyway.

        This is why R support is so disgusting. They know the violations of people’s rights that are occurring, they know innocent people have been killed and they’re still considering a national ERPO as if it might actually be a good idea. They’re so scared of being called “unreasonable” for disagreeing with something that rather than argue about it they simply adopt the opposition position and call it “compromise”.

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