Lying On a 4473, Borrowing From the NRA, and LEOs Without Guns: TTAG Daily Digest

1. “What would happen if American police officers carried whistles instead of guns…”

   Well let’s give it a good old college try then. Let’s start with the big liberal cities. All cops will be disarmed, weapons replaced with rape whistles. Their training will also be that of non intervention and positive reinforcment. Equality above all. When an active rape is occurring, officers will now blow into their whistle, and shout, “Wait here! I’ll go get help!” And rush to get an EMT who will only approach you once the rape is complete.

   • I think that any “may issue” sheriff’s or police department should be limited to whistles and pepper spray.

     • Eeks…. you really gotta read up on the history of American law enforcement. And I’m not talking about the Alex Jones or Southern Poverty Law Center histories.

   • I’d prefer start with the details assigned to protect certain lawmakers.

   • I’ll support that for any aggressive, Paramilitarized Local/City/State Police Department that DOESN’T Support our U.S. Constitutional–Bill of Rights…On both the “Left-Coast and The Eastern Bloc Socialist Utopian Police-States” that have and enforce Draconian Anti-2nd Amendment Firearms and “weapons laws”…Also, I support “Full Independent Civilian Review Boards=ICRBs” , and complete BAN on All Police Unions!

   • Stop or I’ll toot!

2. Geez 2 Chicagoland stories leading off…and Da Bears are playing. They don’t do squat about lying on a 4473. Especially in Chiraqland…call me names but the cop from Cicero is heavily armed,has body armor and qualified immunity(but little situational awareness). I’m helping my family and those in distress 1st. I’d be afraid of being shot by a Chicagoland cop…interestingly we got a local junk “yellowbook”(south suberban from Chicago) today with NO LGS listings. In very small print only one LGS printed. Last year all the LGS’s were listed. Hmmm…

   • Well, to be fair, from the report’s I’ve read earlier, the officer was ambushed by a perp with a full auto sub gun. He didn’t just stand in one place while the criminal meticulously aimed and pulled the trigger. He got shot with a quick burst.

   • “They don’t do squat about lying on a 4473. Especially in Chiraqland” Really? You are from Illinois?

     So, for everyone who is NOT from the state, let me tell you about a little feature of Illinois gun control that actually helps the criminal element. We have something called a FOID card (Firearms Owner ID). The are very easy to get, you just go online, fill out an application and pay $10 for 10 years. Now the nice part, is that gangs can pre-screen their members.

   • After telling us the draconian punishments (10 years) and the huge number of scofflaws (112,000/year), don’t you feel even a small urge to inform us how many of that 112,000 have been/are being prosecuted, how many have gone to prison? I’m guessing that the number would be far less than 1,000 *since the law was passed*!! Maybe 25 a year. So, sure, ignore it, it’s probably a smaller risk than walking around unarmed.

     • I dont see any reason in the foreseeable future to go to Chicago, nor do I have any desire to go to Chicago, which is a shame, if only from a historical perspective. BUT, if for whatever reason, I happen to venture into Chicago, you can be damn sure I will be armed to the teeth. Just saying………..

3. Tribune telling people to commit a felony? Or are they advocating for mass incarceration?

4. “No Such Thing As A Good Guy With A Gun”

   “A man with a concealed-carry license was commended for coming to the aid of Cicero police who were engaged in a shootout with a man who shot and wounded an officer near the Stevenson Expressway Thursday, authorities said.”

   It’s refreshing for the headlines on two different stories to prove the delusional Marxist Left wrong,themselves.

5. About lying on a 4473 –

   I’d be OK with cracking down on that, provided there was a ‘two strikes, you’re out’ provision.

   It’s easily plausible someone may have forgotten a conviction many years back.

   The first time, a court appearance where you get a 1,000 dollar civil fine (like a parking ticket) and the judge tells you what will happen to you if you try that again.

   That will stick in your memory…

   • “It’s easily plausible someone may have forgotten a conviction many years back.”

     Calling BS on this one, I am 78 years old and remember, not only the first but, every traffic ticket I ever had. Even remember a few that were simply warnings.
     Quite sure anyone convicted of a felony has a memory of the event.

     • Not necessarily. I have an acquaintance who plead to a minor charge, for which he could have been sentenced to more than a year in jail, although he wasn’t. He of course remembered the event, but years later found that it disqualified him from gun ownership – and here he was, an NRA instructor and owner of numerous firearms. He had to retain an attorney and jump through numerous hoops to regain his rights.

       • *Exactly* the scenario I was thinking about…

     • Worked in a gun shop for a couple of years. You’d be surprised the number of people over 50 (I’m 60) who pled guilty to a domestic violence misdemeanor 30-40 years ago and either don’t read the form carefully or don’t realize the conviction counts. Also, I don’t believe the statistic, since many of the “denials” returned to us after submitting the 4473, were later reversed due to mistaken computer matches (i.e. common name + dob = someone with felony conviction.)

     • My x-wife had a bench warrant out for her arrest for over 10 years and did not know. When she went to buy her first firearm she was turned down and had to write a letter to the state asking for clarification. Turns out it was a clerical error for a case that was settled out of court, but the county records showed that she failed to appear and they issued the warrant. While rare it certainly is possible for a person to not know they are a prohibited person.

       • IANAL, and I have a problem with “bench warrants” in general. I have seen too many references to people caught up in legal problems of one kind or another because of bench warrants from years back that they did not even know about, sometimes mistaken, to boot. If a warrant is issued, why is it not served? If a person’s address has not changed, they live 5 miles from the courtroom in question, have a listed phone number, why in Hell do they get no heads up that a speeding ticket may trigger their arrest? Maybe they didn’t pay a $5 fine or such nonsense. I was threatened with such because I did not show up to be a juror in a municipal court proceeding in a city which I did not live in. I called to correct them, was told no problem, just come in and process paperwork, wait in line, take shit, so I balled it up and tossed it. Received some truly amazing threats, sent back some truly nasty correspondence, to the actual judge instead of his secretary (who was doing the threatening). Hope I got her fired, never heard back, for all I know, my next speeding ticket will see me arrested.

6. ‘…last year, 112,000 people tried to buy guns from licensed dealers but were caught giving false information on the form.’

   And how many of them were prosecuted and convicted?

   This might be a clue as to why they do it anyway.

   • And how many of those were false positives?

     • A lot are false positives, common name plus dob will often match with a prohibited person. A friend of mine had to submit fingerprint cards to prove he wasn’t a convicted felon to buy a gun. Took six weeks to clear it up. Was told he’d have to do this everytime he wants to buy a gun. So, I guess each time there is a hit, that counts towards the statistic.

       • Who pays for the fingerprinting? Also, this would be a good place, at least in TX and some others, to get a CC license, which eliminates the need for BGC. 4473 is filled out and retained, not sent in.

     • True, that sounds like the number of rejections. But the fact remains that if you’re a prohibited person and you lie on your 4473 you’re probably more likely to be swallowed up by a giant sink hole than to be prosecuted for it.

       Also, my guess is that the vast majority of straw purchases go undetected.

7. ‘Whether guns are actually effective protection tools…’

   There’s a very easy way to determine this definitively. All you need to do is attack someone you know has a gun on him. Let us know how that works out for you.

8. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/zm5xvy/guns-make-you-and-your-family-less-safe-not-more

   It’s telling when one side of the debate has an open forum where one can engage with others who may or may not hold the same beliefs, and the other does not. And that’s completely ignoring the skewed data, biased source data, or utter falsehoods. But I guess when that is all you have (and emotion) allowing others to call you out on that in a public manner wouldn’t help the narrative.

   God forbid people are fed facts and allowed to make their decisions on that.

9. Unfortunately cops do need guns in the shitty world we live in. I wouldn’t mind seeing them kicked back to a six shot revolver and have civil liability / jail time for screwing up though. Privatized is an option.

   • We had privatized at one time. It didn’t work out so well. Railroad police. Mine company police. Private militias funded by the very wealthy.

     One of the reasons unions became so popular.

   • Why do you want to give us a six shot revolver? I love revolvers don’t get me wrong, but what makes you think the bad or poorly trained cops would suddenly act better or shoot better? The problem is not the tools in most agencies. It is the training, the lack of manpower and with it goes the extra fatigue and stress, the reports piling up the b.s calls the frustration and you are drained. I am not whining, I have a decent salary, most people are good with me, and I see folks everyday who work harder than me. Back to the training, If I did not practice at the range on my own time and dime, I would only shoot my agency issued firearms twice a year. I am not counting on my job to provide me serious and frequent training in the use of my firearms.

     • “Back to the training, If I did not practice at the range on my own time and dime, I would only shoot my agency issued firearms twice a year.”
       If the lefties actually knew how pitifully low the bar was set for law enforcement training/retraining/proficiency as it relates to firearms their heads would explode. Any who were still listening would have a heart attack when they found out how many law enforcement personnel dread having to re-qualify in large part because they never practice between qualifications. Not all to be sure and there is variance between agencies, but the reality of it would cause enough leftist tears that we would need to build another ark to wait out the flood.

       “I am not counting on my job to provide me serious and frequent training in the use of my firearms.”
       This is the right attitude and I’m glad you have it. I’m not in law enforcement anymore and now take the same approach to my new cushy office job. I stay up on current tech so I can effectively do my job. But I most certainly do expect them to provide serious and frequent training when they expect me to migrate to a new system/language/etc. Point being there is a line somewhere in every job where your employer does have a duty to keep their employees skills up to par. I would argue that firearms proficiency of the average law enforcement agency is sorely on the sub-par side of that line, and it is hidden from the population at large.

       • have to agree with you both. Sadly it is also not a uniquely American problem either but rather worldwide. Here in australia it is the same and a good many relative newbie target shooters being able to shot rings around the cops let alone advanced shooters. We also have a problem with our military these days not getting enough range time. No money for practice ammo but money to splurge on the latest equipment that the troops then need to train with but little ammo to go with that gear for that training. Quite sickening really. Our volunteers from before our NFA brought in by little johnny brown jackboot were far better trained than our cops or military these days and they did not even get basic training. It was simply them going to the range and putting in range time.

   • Cops are already liable. If they violate a civil right, let’s say the 4th Amendment with a search or seizure without legal ground to do so, or any action violating a federal law and other constitutional rights, then there is liability and usually a lawsuit. Many times the State, City, or County (depending on the agency and location) writes a nice check to the plaintiff, and it is the end of the story. Many local governments would take this route over months of trial and possibly negative publicity. Cops also go through the IA investigation.

     • Cops are already liable.

       Not from what I’ve seen.

       Many times the State, City, or County (depending on the agency and location) writes a nice check to the plaintiff, and it is the end of the story

       Yes, that’s what I’ve seen. Cops violate the supreme law of the land, and the courts punish the taxpayers.

   • So you agree with the gun controllers that semi autos and “high” capacity mags should be banned then? Because that’s what you’re saying.

10. I suspect that if the police suddenly had to give up their guns the vast majority of us Americans would do as we’ve always done. Go to work. Handle our business and not bother anyone else.

    But the ones that were always a problem in the community would become a bigger, more emboldened problem.

    • It would turn into a purge in some places, and the good folks would not win everywhere. And I doubt more good folks would move from their neck of the woods to go save them. Times have changed people are more stressed, overwhelmed, selfish, self medicated, zombies in front of their electronic devices, addicted to one thing or another, unable to act or communicate in certain situations….

    • In small town and rural America somewhat. But you have to remember the police get paid to deal with the real confusing and dumb crimes normal Americans don’t even want to think about. Like domestics, or child molesters, or organized crime. Society being well armed can put a huge damper on a lot of crimes, but Shit what I’ve listed is why we pay for things like police and prisons. I think a lot of people who advocate for getting rid of or disarming the police have simply 0 grasp on reality.

      • I’d take that a bit further NCA. Those who advocate for the abolition of police must be either delusional or nhilists.

        I live in a small, rural place where the population is 96% white and 85% were born within the county. The odds of a person here not being related in some way to one of 19 families is low. Here we would work it out eventually. A few repeat offenders would have to be delt with, but I think over all our situation would stabilize, and I don’t really think there would be any large scale violence…that is, after the seizing of the banks, Wal-Mart and anything else that looked “corporate”. Well, and after some feuds heated up and settled back down. Respect for personal property and individual sovereignty runs very high here, and few people are not part of some clan that would ensure retribution if they were wrongly harmed…

        There is a balance of power here already, nearly everyone is armed, and a member of an extended family providing mutual aid and protection. Plus, in these Appalachian hills and hollows we are not all that far removed from self reliance, caution and community, from a time when little in the way of effective law enforcement existed anyway.

        That said, there are only eight law enforcement agencies in the county. Four serve villages with populations under 4000. That’s often less than 400 voting residents. If we wanted rid of local LE, there would be no local departments anyway. One serves only 252 people…only about 25 voters. Here I could see people voting out the State Highway Patrol perhaps, but I’d wager the communities would fight hard to keep thier cops and the county sheriff, especially since we voted for him you see, in the last 3 elections running.

        We perhaps have the least need of police, and the greatest respect for them and appreciation of them.
        Those who seem want them gone are concentrated in places where they need them most and appreciate them least, major cities especially.

        I wonder if there is something to having a sense of family and community that fosters a respect for police, where as lacking these leads to the opposite?

        Either way, wishing them away is for predators, nhilists and morons.

        I have rifle plates, a patrol carbine, side arms, tactical radio, a partner and all the bits and pieces you’d want to have along in a dangerous world, along with the skills and experience to use them well…but I don’t want to have to. It’s why I support LE. I don’t want to go clean up others messes, don’t want to make those decisions or see those sights. I don’t want that level of confrontation in my life. Though I could likely survive and even prosper in a world without police, I don’t want to, because I realize this is better, for all of us.

        I don’t want to have to move my mother and nieces and nephews into a compound for protection, something I think internet tough guys forget about while they relish life in a world without laws. I dont want to have to mediate between two morons, one in my group and one out, regarding whether the disagreement they are having warrants bloodshed or not. I don’t want to greet every car that finds its way to my remote, dead end place as if it is an enemy gunship come to plunder, or to punish for decisions I’ve made and acts I’ve committed, justly or not…

        I quite like the rule of law, it chafes, it rankles, it limits, but more so it saves, satisfies and enriches. It is what smart, hard men have put in place, so that they and theirs didn’t have to be quite so hard and smart and lucky all the time just to stay alive and in possession of their goods.

        • Good write-up. Law enforcement (that is accountable to the public) is important to the concept of a civil society. Furthermore, the civil society is what is required to keep a Constitutional Republic such as we have. To expand upon that “accountability” concept, it would be nice if municipal police chiefs were elected, rather than appointed by a mayor, who may have a political agenda. Or, dissolve all of the municipal police forces within a given county, and put all local law enforcement under the county sheriff’s department, as some localities have done.

11. Disarmed Japan has a higher suicide rate than the US, so guns are not really a factor.
    Were there’s a will, there’s always a way.
    Suicide stats should be broken down into the various causes, terminally ill, bullied teen, chronic pain, poverty stricken, etal to better study those that might be avoidable. Taking away guns will not stop suicides. Some gunfree folks drive their car head on into oncoming highway traffic (and are usually the only survivors) to do themselves in…….I’d rather they use a gun instead.

    • Suicide is merely a symptom of a sick society. No one, not in the government, not in the medical community, really gives a shit about treating the real physical causes of depression. You see the world going to hell around you and it tends to make one give up all hope.

      • IHMO two of the causes of this “epidemic” of depression is excessive govt regulation and taxation. I am not sure what the overall tax rate is in the US but here in australia with all the hidden taxes it comes close to 70%. This includes ANYTHING you pay to the govt be it licensing, registration, rates, etc etc along with all the other taxes you pay every day and not even realize. Then there is the fact that the laws are so numerous that even experts in the field of law cant get a full grasp of more than one area of law let alone the law as a whole and you end up with a problem where people give up because no matter how hard they try they end up breaking some obscure law that few if any know about.
        Keep the laws to the bare basics so EVERYONE (even the retard down the road) can know and understand them and the taxes minimal (also cutting govt to the barest bare bones) and i think you would find that much of the depression problem would go away

12. “Borrowing strategy from NRA, activists quietly overturn knife restrictions across U.S.”

    Can we kill the switchblade act already? There’s no logical reason for it to exist.

    • Thanks. I was in high school, 50 years ago, when I realized that.

13. From the Fibune:

    Claiming to buy a gun for yourself and then delivering it to someone else is illegal, as the form makes plain. The ban is ineffectual, though, unless violators can expect to face punishment. And “straw purchasers” also rarely face federal prosecution.

    Literally, the very next paragraph:

    The lax approach is an argument for universal background checks.

    Were these people deprived of oxygen at birth? Of course, comments are disabled.

    • Arguments like the one the Tribune is making merely demonstrate that in a world of cretins, the imbecile is king.

14. Just give the cops and military Smart Guns since they are so wonderful.

    • The US military has used guided projectiles for decades but they have not replace firearms or other “dumb” weapons Mr Troll.

15. In relation to Gun Range Suicide – my local range asks if you are there by yourself when checking in. I thought that odd the first time but now it makes sense.,

    • I guess I’m still missing something. Why? My range asks the same, everybody going to the line has to fill out a release, and pay the range fees, so obviously. But what does suicide have to do with it?

      • My range won’t rent firearms to anyone who is there alone after some guy commited suicide with a rental handgun. You can still see where the bullet hit the top of that lane’s range divider after it exited his head. The assumption behind the policy is that the presence of a friend can help keep a suicidal person from carrying out their plan.

        They won’t stop you from renting a lane alone if you bring your own gun. Because, if you have your own gun and are suicidal, why would you go to a range to shoot yourself?

16. I support disarming cops.

17. I recently bought a pistol posted on armslist from a private seller. In the description the seller required either a local ccw license or transfer through a FFL.

    During our interaction he told me he had a guy offer $150 over his selling price if he’d sell the pistol without a ccw or FFL transfer and after a little research it was revealed that the buyer had a pending charge for stalking and making terroristic threats.

    So basically a private citizen is working harder on background checks that states and the fbi…
    Btw the seller was a cop selling his duty gun….

    • ??? So the seller was a cop selling his gun? The seller did not bust the guy who was trying to buy the gun who was afraid of the 4473? Am i missing something?

      • The info isn’t there, but given that it is an internet sale, the offender is likely not within the jurisdiction of the seller/cop.

        • Pretty sure most all cops have no jurisdiction over federal firearms forms or regulations. Does seem like he could drop a dime on the mofo, tho.

18. Yall cant be so stupid as to believe the Dallas cop story. That’s not what happened. I don’t know what happened but that isn’t it.

19. I am a charter member of Knife Rights, and I highly recommend 2nd Amendment supporters to join. I worked with Doug Ritter in the Knife Rights booth at a Dallas gun show. He impressed me as a sincere, hard-working guy.

20. If we take away LE’s gun’s and give them whistles, WHO is the whistle supposed to summon? Those non-cops of us who ARE packing?
    Besides, they’re going to sound silly when the felon runs, and they have to yell, “HALT! Or I’ll TOOT!”

    • Not bad, but you asked for it. If you don’t let them have the whistle, it’d have to be “halt, or I’ll poot!”

21. Cops need guns….4473 is unconstitutional government infringement. Bad guys don’t buy guns from a gun shop.

22. Sounds like a plan. Citizens should be armed, not government employees. Disarm all cops and let them ask for help from a citizen if they need it. Citizens will have the right to refuse.

23. HAHAHAHAHA! If you’re the kind of person who is frightened by the sight of armed police, I PROMISE you, you really don’t want them to be disarmed. Those of us who aren’t afraid of guns would most likely do fine, but yeah, PLEASE, let’s make this happen. Remove the ability for those who refuse to take responsibility for their own safety to offload it to a third party. After all, if you refuse to protect yourself, why the hell is it society’s job to do it for you?

    • Lol Red. i agree however seeing LEO’s carrying in this country (australia) scares me more than seeing a rank newbie picking up a gun for the first time. This is not because i am scared of guns but because of how the selection criteria standards for police has dropped in the last 40 years and because they are woefully under trained. I would trust those i see at the range on a regular basis far more. I have also seen a good many officers carrying that are blissfully unaware of their surroundings

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