“Members of the advocacy group Moms Demand Action delivered more than 72,000 petitions to Harris Teeter’s Matthews-based headquarters Thursday morning, asking the company to ban openly carried guns in its stores,” charlotteobserver.com reports. Why’s that? “You don’t have to have training or a permit to open carry in stores,” North Carolina Advocacy Lead for MDA Christy Clark told the Observer. And? How many open carriers have murdered people while open carrying? None that I can find. And if I could find any, how would that compare to the number of murderous criminals carrying illegally? But that’s not what’s important here. What gun rights advocates need to understand . . .
is that Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America understand that they will lose the battle for gun rights if even a small percentage of Americans openly carry firearms. Because open carriers – nice, normal people carrying guns in public while peaceably going about their business – will normalize guns. They will rob firearms of their power to frighten non-gun owners. At that point, MDA and its ilk will lose the gun control “debate.” Forever.
While I appreciate the tactical advantages of concealed carry, it’s time to face facts: open carry is THE battleground for American gun rights. Not supporting the NRA. Not voting for pro-gun politicians. Not winning court battles restoring Americans’ natural, civil and Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Openly carrying firearms.
There’s nothing you can do – nothing – that will have as great an impact on firearms freedom. Because the anti-gunners depend on non-gun owners who know nothing of guns to support their war on your RKBA. Undermine that support with open carry – a rude awakening but an awakening nonetheless – and the antis will be dead in the water, Bloomberg billions or no.
When Texas enacts open carry, I will wear a gun on my hip wherever it’s legally allowed. Why? Because I can. Because I must. I must protect my gun rights for my children, my community and my country. If you live in a state that allows open carry you need to open carry your firearm. Tonight. Tomorrow. For years to come. If you don’t, don’t tell me you’re a gun rights advocate. By thy deeds thy shall be known. That is all.
Just made that decision for myself last week. For the children.
Here in California we don’t even have that option sadly…
Daniel, I’m in CA too and look forward to reading your comments. What would happen if we potg did open carry, but the “gun” was a non functional, pink rubber replica? It would be a form of protest for the constitutional infringements in CA.
That would be legal, but you might meet police resistance because there are, of course, real pink pistols. Bright orange or zombie green might be better.
Well in that case, carry a Type One Star Trek Phaser.
Blue Guns. Bout $40 apiece new.
If I were ever to be deprived of my right to own a firearm through some shenanigan of the system, I’d start conceal carrying a blue gun, and print as much as possible. I wouldn’t be doing anything illegal, yet someone might think I was armed and be deterred. A slim chance (since people don’t notice jack $#!+) but still there.
Here in Texas we have used bananas in retention holsters to make the point. Check for a black powder exemption in your state law too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpK_T_6vobI
The facts are many California ‘pro-gun’ groups are only interested in permission slips and refused support for and even publicly criticized Open Carry groups and our activities when it was legal here. This was the case when CA HAD Open Carry, and this divide is why CA lost Open Carry of handguns one year and then long guns the next. United we stand divided we fall seems to apply here. Groups such as the NRA and CalGuns like their status as CCW elites.
http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org for updates on and to support the Nichols suit to restore open carry in CA.
I OC myself.
Well, I can open carry in my shop, I think I may well start to do it. I know one of my colleagues/competitors does already. Wonder how many of those 72k signatures were from areas actually served by Harris Teeter’s? Come to think of it, wonder how many are from actual living, breathing, adults signing their own names and no one else’s? have to say, that article from the Observer was one of the most even-handed I have ever seen, accurately describing the Target and Starbucks non-bans and all. And H-T’s spokesman hit the perfect note: “We leave that kind of thing up to the legislatures”. That’s what they all should say, and nothing more.
I wonder what the exact wording was on the petition that people signed too.
I was also wondering about the petition phrasing, and even the presentation.
The other thought was that 72,000 people were “Grubered”, as in given a “non-transparent” process where they could be taken advantage of through the use of misrepresented (lies) facts and promised (falsely) that they would obtain something beneficial.
Or do to the petition signers what Johnathan Gruber did to the american public, cheated and lied to them.
LOL @ his name becoming synonymous with trickery and shenanigans.
Do you think they read it?
I’ve started OC-ing for this same reason. I’ve had some interesting experiences, met some cool people, got some wierd stares, but surprisingly, I rarely get called out on it by strangers. I expected a lot more of that, but it hasn’t materialized.
Of COURSE they don’t call you out. They are TERRIFIED!!! If they give you a hard time, why, you might just pull out THAT NASTY HORRIBLE GUN! and SHOOT someone!!! It happens all the time, doncha know.
I agree, but I want campus carry in Texas too. Universities are soft targets for any nutter or pervert who wants to prey on students and staff. Enough.
@juliesa, I totally agree.
I don’t live in Texas, but I have been “rooten”for them.
I also want campus carry as well.
If any place should have it, it is on college campuses as well.
I know the outcome of the recent shooting at FSU would have been different if only ONE of the students had been armed.
Thanks, Glenn!
The more freedom to carry the better. My wife wants to carry at work where she has fielded calls from folks threatening death and the security consultants have described her building as a kill box. Her daughter called last night scared to leave work because the night before a man had been chased away after trying to forcefully abduct women. Both places promise instant termination but neither offer anything significant in the way of protection. We should be more upset about the former as we don’t really need to depend on the latter.
…Both places promise instant termination…
So the company and the criminals both promise the female employees the same thing. Nice.
Drewlssix,
Have your wife and daughter carry anyway. If no one ever attacks them, no one will ever know that they are armed. If someone does attack them, being alive and well and unemployed sure beats the Hell out of being dead, permanently disabled, or seriously injured and employed.
72,000 is a lot of damn petitions.
I know, right? That’s 113% of the eligible signers if you allow a person to sign for dead people with each hand.
Do BloomMoms Receive A Penny Of Foreign $ To Overthrow Our Constitution???
Yep, but knowing MDA, they probably contain a healthy dose of infants, toddlers, mush-brained teens and tweeners, and family pets. Not to mention duplicates under fake names, and folks from well outside of H-T’s service area.
Delivered by three people, Harris Teeter LLC knows that MDA is a political astro-turf group with an agenda and will polity tell them to go pound sand.
Open carry? Concealed carry?
Why not both?
I casual carry in the most comfortable way possible, which for me is outside the waistband.
If I wear a jacket, it’s concealed. If not, it’s open. I don’t care who sees it.
I think casual carry is the way to go over open carry. “I don’t care who sees it” vs “I want you to see it.”
^ This.
Couldn’t agree more. This is the essence of normalization. If you go out of your way to open carry, then you’re doing it wrong.
Depending on the jurisdiction you live in that can be a funny grey area though. All I can say is make sure you are doing it lawfully, it’d suck to be in a place that says you can’t print and have a police officer decide that you’re printing and not OCing.
Yeah, that’s a fair point. As RF likes to say: “Void where prohibited by law.”
( applause )
At least one state defines “concealed” as requiring intent to hide — I can’t recall which. That’s the proper definition; no action should be a crime without intent!
I have non-carrying friends who think that open carry isn’t a deterrent so much, because if everyone open carried the bad guys would know who to take out, but if some are open and some are not, there’s no way to know.
Interesting that you should post this.
I live in an apartment complex and a few days ago received a holiday bulletin that reminded me that space heaters, fireworks and openly displayed firearms (in the “common areas” of the complex) are prohibited.
I like the idea of Open Carry, but the primary obstacle is that so many businesses (and even my place of residence) are hostile to it.
At any rate (to any lawyers reading) am I within my rights to open carry a pistol to-and-from my car?
“At any rate (to any lawyers reading) am I within my rights to open carry a pistol to-and-from my car?”
Not a lawyer by any means, but if you seriously want an answer, you will need to state your location.
Yeah, probably should have stated. Just used to not putting personal info out on the webz 😛
Recently became a NC resident. I was shocked when I moved here and found out I needed a CCW or Pistol Purchase Permit to buy a handgun. >.>
* NOT a lawyer*
You probably are, however when you decide to OC you may not want to do so at your apartment complex as I’m sure your entry door has not been reinforced to prevent kick-in like say mine has. Firearms are like any other valuable in some respects, and if someone sees your piece may decide to try and take it or look for others while you are away. Likewise with firearms logo bumper stickers on your vehicle etc.
I would speak to local police about crime in the complex to get an idea of what goes on as I’m sure the management doesn’t tell the whole story.
Good point. I’ll have to speak with Management about reinforcing my entryway. I looked it over carefully after you said that and I can tell it’s been kicked in at least once before and glued back together. Rather troubling.
I got on as assistant to the manager of an apartment building once. My first task was to assess any needed repairs. One of the first thing I had noticed was how many doors had been kicked in, which could be done because they used those idiotic half-inch screws to hold the latch and dead bolt catches. So I went out and got four-inch screws for the latches and five-inch for the dead bolts.
Within the week a guy trying to kick down the door of an ex-GF got a broken foot. Cops found him in the emergency room.
So once the door is solid, be sure to not let your management overlook the security aspect of having the right hardware.
I’m not a lawyer, but I know that if you want legal advice, you don’t ask the Internet. Call a lawyer.
State laws vary.
Also not a lawyer, but Bob is correct … whether or not you can legally OC to/from the parking lot depends on the laws in your particular state.
Just for the record, I am a [retired] lawyer, and that is indeed correct. Can’t say about NC law.
So why not present these same companies the signatures of umpteen million gun advocates to negate the value of 72000 anti’s?
Most of those umpteen million gun-rights supporters (can’t really say “advocates” ) are busier doing socially useful stuff, like working at their jobs and such, and are not following this kind of thing on social media and signing online petitions, let alone paper ones. That’s one advantage the empty-nester “moms” have.
True that. Sending this from work right now where im actually manufacturing something. Oil field sector CNC machinist in Texas. Already have holsters for open carrying for when it does get passed.
Yep, OC often, just because. Had 2 adverse reactions, if you call them that. Once, in Lowe’s, the employee helping us pick out a new storm door got flush and nervous all of a sudden, confirmed we were all set, and hurried off. Can’t be sure it was because of the gun, but most likely. The wife figured that out, I never would have made the connection, and just thought he was busy.
Another time, same Lowe’s, different employee said “cool cell phone”, and when I asked what phone he meant, he said, “the one that looks like a pistol”, so I let him know it was indeed a pistol.. He was puzzled, asked if it that was legal, and if it was loaded, of course I replied in the affirmative. I then asked if he was a new hire, and he was. So I informed him that most of the other employees were quite aware of me as well as a few others who open carry regularly, and to ask them if he had more questions (I was in a hurry, couldn’t stop and talk).
I have had scores of positive encounters, and had quite a few spontaneous gun talks with people because of the Glock on the hip.
Based on my observations, fully 98% of people notice when I wear a kilt and at most 5% notice an openly carried sidearm.
Cant wait to be able to wear a kilt and OC at the same time. Too bad the Texas Renaissance Festival is posted as no carry. (texas 30.06 sign. One of only 2 legal signs in texas and it has specific requirements as set forth in law for size and content. The other is the 51% sign for alcohol. Which makes no sense to me if you never drink.)
If it is a Renaissance Faire, you should be carrying a claidheamh-mòr with your kilt, with a s’gain duhb in your sock and a dirk up your sleeve. After that, who needs a gun?
Reminds me of a situation at work last week. One of our newer hires was tasked with driving a customer home while we serviced his truck. He came back breathlessly relating his horrifying experience. ” that guy had a GUN in his hand the whole time! I was so scared I couldn’t answer any of his questions about his truck!!” A little investigation revealed the guy had an open top range bag with a pistol some ammo and likely some Hoppes #9. Cuz we know that’s how crazy killers roll right? And this from a short doughy slow kid who tells fishy stories about being in special ops and pro wrestling.
“If you live in a state that allows open carry you need to open carry your firearm. ”
Why don’t you not worry about what’s in my pants… I carry to protect myself and family, not to make a public statement.
I will certainly OC when Texas passes it.
I recently found a suitable, OWB holster for my SR9c (I didn’t think it would be that difficult to find an OWB retention holster for such a common pistol), and will be getting it for Christmas.
I prefer concealed carry, but I will find opportunities to open carry – primarily because I’m sick to death of the anti-open-carry bigotry, especially among alleged supporters of gun rights. Unless we stop eating our own, anything MDA can do will pale by comparison.
“Eating our own” – You mean like telling anyone who doesn’t OC that they aren’t a real “gun rights advocate”?
That pales in comparison to the way that open carriers are denigrated.
And Robert has a point: if your goal is to advocate, then open carry is far more effective than concealed carry. I see nothing there that disparages those who wish to carry merely for their own purposes, when those purposes don’t include advocacy.
I always thought MLK and his ilk were down right disrespectful to their fellow civil rights supporters who protested in their own way… By drinking from their own fountains staying in the back of the buss never sitting at the counter. I mean who’s to say that silence and submission are not equally valid forms of protest!
I’m not sure I follow completely. I get the sarcasm, but I don’t think we’re on the same page.
I think that Robert is saying that *if* you want to engage in gun-rights advocacy, and *if* you want to counter the anti-gun PR of the Mommy Bullies, then you need to open carry. I agree, especially if the intent is to counter the hysterical rhetoric of the Mommy Bullies.
But at the same time, there are 11 million people who are licensed to carry firearms. Not all of them want to engage in advocacy; they simply want to live their lives and go about their business. I have no problem with such people making that choice. I just don’t get the analogy to willfully sitting in the back of the bus.
OC’rs are argued against in the main on this site on two points.
1. Some assess it as tactical disadvantage, others counter, so you have stalemate. Who’s right? Depends. That is a DIScussion not a DISrespect
I used to open carry when tent camping to announce to any BG, that other tents would be wiser to attack than mine when it got dark.
2. AR/AKs at the low ready or even across your back. And even there, it is about the wisdom of it being neither a good self-defense strategy nor as well as a wise political advancement of gun rights. Never heard supposed bigotry regarding prohibiting OC, just discussion of its wisdom.
When your opinion disagrees with someone else, calling it bigotry instead of just advice you wish not to take may not be the right way to think of it.
When your opinion disagrees with someone else, calling it bigotry instead of just advice you wish not to take may not be the right way to think of it.
Perhaps you’ve missed the outright vitriol directed at open carriers on the many comment threads here. It goes far beyond mere respectful disagreement or “advice”, and I don’t think that point is in any way in dispute.
“Perhaps you’ve missed the outright vitriol directed at open carriers…”
Ah, the old standby used by everyone from 6yrs old on… “he did it first!”
I missed where I advocated ad hominem attacks on either open carriers or concealed carriers.
Unless you’re claiming that my use of the term “bigotry” to describe the frequent attitude toward open carriers in TTAG comment threads is itself ad hominem?
@Chip Bennett: “Perhaps you’ve missed the outright vitriol directed at open carriers on the many comment threads here.”
Remind me again how making the tent so small that it only has room for open carriers helps our movement? I don’t think we can tu quoque ourselves to a repeal of the NFA, repeal of the GFSZA, nationwide reciprocity and wider constitutional carry.
Remind me again how making the tent so small that it only has room for open carriers helps our movement?
If that was Robert’s intent, then I agree that it is wrong. But I think many are misunderstanding his intent, which specifically deals with advocacy, and not with mere exercise of our rights.
I see nothing in Robert’s article that says that concealed carriers are inherently bad, or doing it wrong. He’s merely saying that if you’re intentionally advocating for gun rights by carrying, then you need to be carrying openly.
I don’t have a problem with that opinion, and I’m a concealed carrier.
@Chip Bennett:
Can you help me parse this RF quote from the OP?
“If you live in a state that allows open carry you need to open carry your firearm. Tonight. Tomorrow. For years to come. If you don’t, don’t tell me you’re a gun rights advocate. By thy deeds thy shall be known. That is all.”
Try as I might, I just can’t turn what he’s saying into your proposed meaning of “He’s merely saying that if you’re intentionally advocating for gun rights by carrying, then you need to be carrying openly.”
What he saidI/i> is that since OC is legal where I live, I can’t tell him I’m a “gun rights advocate” unless I OC.
There are a lot of people who have done a heck of a lot for our freedom to own and carry guns who don’t OC. RF is calling them four-flushers. Do you agree?
Talk about a fastball down the middle… sure, I’ll parse it for you.
I said:
Robert said (from your own quote):
There are a lot of people who have done a heck of a lot for our freedom to own and carry guns who don’t OC. RF is calling them four-flushers. Do you agree?
Certainly not, nor do I agree with your premise. There are other forms of advocacy besides your chosen carry method. You can advocate for gun rights, and not carry at all. Alan Gura is a perfect example.
But Robert has a valid point to make, and I don’t think people are reading objectively enough to grasp it. When the landscape is defined by the propaganda and rhetoric of the Bullying Mommies, concealed-is-concealed carry does nothing to change that landscape. Millions of people can and likely do carry concealed every day, without anyone ever knowing. That’s great. But if nobody ever knows, then that action is doing nothing to counter the rhetoric and propaganda of the Bullying Mommies.
@Chip Bennett: I keep reading and re-reading RF’s closing comments to the post, and the plain English of it is that he leaves no room for ANY “gun rights activists” in OC states who don’t OC.
To take your Gura example, Gura lives in Virginia, per Wikipedia. VA is, AFAIK, an OC state. According to the plain English reading of RF’s closing comment, Gura can not tell RF that he’s a “gun rights advocate”, despite the fact that Gura has done more than anyone in our generation to secure gun rights.
I think that RF has a point, too. I think that the tasteful carry of holstered handguns by folks projecting the right image does a lot of good for our cause. But RF went so far over the top and so oversold his point that, frankly, I’ve lost a lot of respect for the guy.
It’s long past due for us [gun owners] to take our rightful place at the front of the bus.
O2
(Who me? Drawing parallels?)
Way to pull the tent stakes in, RF. I’ll bet that if you think about it a little harder, you can make it so that you’re the only REAL “gun rights advocate” on the planet. That will probably make you feel awesome.
In fact, do you know what the gun rights movement needs? An Inquisition. That’ll really split out the true believers from the heretics and false conversos. It’s absolutely critical that we ensure the purity of our movement for the future, and no price is too high for that. It’s for the children.
^^ This!
Yup. What a great idea. It’s amazing that someone can argue for normalizing gun ownership by denigrating anyone who isn’t doing it the way he likes.
I’m stunned that you have the balls to say something like that. You’re one of the nastier portions of the anti-OC crowd here on TTAG.
NC still has its “carrying a weapon to the terror of the people” law. OC is not technically illegal, but if anyone gets “scared” and calls the cops, you can be arrested. I’m surprised GRNC hasn’t gone after that law yet.
Not true, it’s been shot down in court already. http://www.guncite.com/court/state/25nc418.html
“it is the wicked purpose, and the mischievous result, which essentially constitute the crime” – your example is used specifically as a reason one should be wary of where one OC’s in NC. The subjectivity of the law allows for wide interpretation and a frightened woman in a grocery store could qualify as a mischievous result (especially with the option of CC’ing but OC’ing anyway).
I don’t agree with it, but you won’t catch me OC’ing in NC anywhere near a densely populated area.
The case your link directed me too AFFIRMED a conviction based on that law. I don’t see how you conclude that that law has been “shot down”. But I would think NC has long since replaced “common law” in criminal matters with a penal code. Haven’t they?
The link in my comment below shows that ~350 were charged with this crime in 2011
A good writeup and discussion on this topic: http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/going-armed-to-the-terror-of-the-people/
“So, while even though you may consider the general public to be hoplophobes, as for purposes of this offense, cases hold that if members of the public experience fear, the “to the terror of the people” element is satisfied”
No doubt, but that really shouldn’t be. The dispositive element should be the intent of the weapon-carrier, as evidenced by his own statements and actions. The subjective, irrational fears of third parties in and of itself should never suffice to establish a mens rea on the part of an individual actor.
i dont raly understand why there i seven so much discussion and hoops to go thru for concealed carry or any carry.
i fthousands more people begin open carrying cant the violent criminal then just blend in as easy as many other open carriers?? robbing 7-11s just as easy?? and wouldnt most opportunistic violent open carrying or cc criminals when entering a harris teetee noticing say a dozen open carrying people likely look for a different target….one with less guns??
so why should any type or carry matter??
fake story
Good article, but you are missing a few caveats. I don’t OC off duty in the presence of my 21 month old son. He tries to grab everything, loves to be held by daddy, and would try to grab Glocks all day long if he knew they were there. That means no OC around the little guy, even though I’m currently in WI.
I CC in a snap retention holster around the little guy. If that disqualifies me as a gun rights advocate, than pro-gunners aren’t very smart.
For my part, I’ll keep calm and carry on, and take TTAG advice with a grain of salt.
I’m sure Robert would consider that an special circumstance. He should have mentioned such situations though.
I think you missed the most important caveat… How about if someone just doesn’t f*cking want to OC.
I CC at the house, when I do yard work, when I take out the trash, when out in public, and hell, I even CC my sidearm while hunting.
I don’t want or care for anyone to know I’m carrying my pistol. It’s my self defense tool, not my political tool.
^^ This!
I can relate. I have a 19 month old who is just the way you describe. Everything he can reach, he claims as his by way of yelling MINE! So while I patiently wait for OC to become a thing here in Texas, I will not do it around the little guy until he is older.
H-T is another Southern based company that is likely to tell theMoms to buzz off.
Given that they are owed by Kroger’s, they already have.
They still need our support in this, though.
Didn’t know they were owned by Kroger. I will be sure to open carry at my local H-T this weekend to show support.
Hairy Teats was purchased by Kroger within the last year. I try to avoid my local Ht because their selection, employees, and prices are all awful. That said I OC in there nearly every time I enter. I enter in-of-doors and my coat/jacket/hoodie comes off…
Regal Cinemas is based in Tennessee and has a no-firearms policy.
I’ve OC’d for for almost seven years here in New Mexico. Initially because I could do so with out a license. We have shall issue CC. I didn’t want to turn a right into a privilege by begging permission from the state to CC. In seven years; all good interactions with the police and my fellow citizens. Causing fear and panic among the populace by OCing a pistol is over blown. It happens, but it is very rare.
But now if we went to Constitutional Carry tomorrow, I would continue to OC for that very reason; to make an OC gun as common as a belt carried cell phone.
A right not practiced is a right easy to take a way.
” . . . While I appreciate the tactical advantages of concealed carry, it’s time to face facts: open carry is THE battleground for American gun rights. . .”
Exactly. Social movements like gun-control and gun-rights succeed or fail on symbolism. Control the symbols and you control the meanings people use to define the issues. Historically, gun-control efforts have destroyed themselves on the rocks of America’s strong gun-use traditions. Open carry is the symbolic reference point that best represents America’s long association with guns. It is also the reference point that most represents the values the gun-controllers most oppose. In order for the gun-controllers to win they must turn gun-carrying into an act of deviance. In order for People Of The Gun to win, we must make carrying guns a civil rights issue. The moral imperative provided by our culture and history is on our side.
I’ll carry how I choose thank you very much. Who the fuck are you to tell me what I have to do?
There’s a first time for everything, but on this topic I have to fervently disagree with RF. “Open Carry or STFU?” Really, those are my only two choices here? I personally think open carry is a bad idea. The problem is that carrying a gun in public without wearing a uniform or badge ISN’T normalized in our society, even for many gun rights supporters like me. I have no tactical advantage openly carrying a gun, and I’m making a spectacle of myself.
While you believe openly carrying normalizes the practice, I believe open carry only further marginalizes you in the eyes of the average American who is 50/50 on gun rights. Most Americans that are on the fence about whether to own a gun are a long way from considering open carry as a “reasonable” option. My fear is that you are losing the middle by going to this extreme.
Tim, that’s a common argument, bolstered by California’s ban on OC. But if everyone sees that millions of ordinary people carry guns, it may work the same way as GLAAD and others normalized gay behavior. I think there are a lot of “ifs,” though. IF we stand firm in the face of criticism (as gay groups did). IF we beat the drum constantly (ditto). IF we concentrate in friendly territories first (not CA, for example). Normalize OC in “free states” and that will shift the spectrum of gun rights for all states. The more we push the needle in these states, the more out of touch, CA, NY, NJ, etc., become.
What we don’t have that GLAAD had is a friendly media. Which makes our personal evangelism that much more important. Honesty and integrity wins in the long run.
One thing to keep in mind is that gay culture did not always have a friendly media bolstering them. At some point the popular media was universally anti gay, then there were subversive outlets possibly just posters newsletters and pamphlets spread by small groups. Then a long span of exploitative time that both normalized and marginalized gay culture before large portions of the media came around to producing favorable coverage. It wasn’t so long ago that being outed would end most public careers.
“The problem is that carrying a gun in public without wearing a uniform or badge ISN’T normalized in our society, even for many gun rights supporters like me.”
Depends on where you live, Tim. While I agree it isn’t customary for people to open carry in many urban environments—where it was never customary—there are many other areas, mostly (but not all) rural, where open carry has been a traditional practice for generations. Laws restricting open carry abridged customary, completely normal behavior in those places. All things being equal, I think it would be unusual to open carry in Macy’s or Whole Foods but probably not at Bass Pro or a cattle auction. If open carry was legalized, those rules would get worked out pretty quickly and without the force of law.
Before we bet the future of the gun-rights movement on open carry, as RF wants to do, perhaps we could see if there’s any data on whether it works. Are there reliable surveys on how it effects attitudes toward guns and gun rights? Is there anecdotal evidence even in which people who were ambivalent, or even opposed to gun rights changed their minds because of open carry? I’m not persuaded by the positive encounters that OC activists like to report, since those are likely self-selecting.
You won’t get to sit at the front of the bus by staying in back and whining. Yes, making the public deal with it, it is your right, has worked for other things, quite often.
I’m pretty sure Rosa parks didn’t tell the black folks who were protesting in other ways that they weren’t “real” advocates.
Here we have part of the reason they succeeded where gun rights have eroded.
So those who were content to sit in back and whine were advocates? For what? Being ignored? Marginalized? Told to shut up? Maybe offered a “permit” to sit in front if they could show just cause?
That didn’t advance any causes. Action did. Trying to hide in the woodwork gets you nothing.
I definitely think we should carry openly as much as practical. I have had positive encounters with curious people while carrying openly. Try it. Be smart and courteous and prepared to answer basic questions.
I agree in theory but really telling POTG to STFU is a BAD IDEA. I can’t open carry in Illinois. Hell CC is difficult around here. No one needs to know what I have. +1 Rock on hell child…
First, who are you to tell us where “THE” battleground is? “All or nothing” thinking like this is not only illogical but disrespectful. Who are you, who hates when liberal-leaning groups and publications push an agenda, to push your agenda?
The second amendment says the right to bear arms. It doesn’t say how. I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong to openly carry (unless the laws of your state say you are, but then I’m just the messenger). Who are you to tell me how to bear my arms? Or anyone, for that matter?
And as you and others have pointed out (have you forgotten your words?), open carry texas and others, with their tactics, have only stirred up drama.
And FYI, Texans have already enacted open carry … of long guns. So you want handgun open carry? Lobby, but don’t tell me I’m somehow wrong. I open carried in Iraq.
Seriously, either you didn’t have your coffee this morning or you had too much. This is not the type of hyperventilating agenda-pushing hype that I’m used to getting from you or TTAG.
“Why? Because I can.” Well you and others have disagreed with OCT before in terms of “just because you can doesn’t mean you should.” And I’m not going to revisit it, but the phrase “just because you can doesn’t mean you should” is entirely valid in this situation.
If you had stopped here, you’d be entirely logical. However, then you say “Because I must.” Who’s telling you that you must? You or someone else? If this is self-imposed, ok, sure. But you can’t say “we must”, which is really what you’re doing. Again, who are you to tell me what to do? Do you who value freedom take away people’s freedom (or attempt to) by bullying people into doing what you want? But of course, you don’t stop there with your illogical tyrade:
“If you live in a state that allows open carry you need to open carry your firearm. Tonight. Tomorrow. For years to come.” Don’t tell me what to do, or anyone what to do. The concept of freedom means you need to keep your agenda from being crammed down our throats. It’s called you ask us nicely. Not tell us we must. But of course, you saved the most clear revelation of your illogical all-or-nothing tyrade for the end:
“If you don’t, don’t tell me you’re a gun rights advocate. By thy deeds thy shall be known. That is all.”
Who are you to tell everyone what to do? I can be a fan of Glock, but I don’t tell people “If you don’t own Glock, don’t tell me you’re a gun rights advcoate.” That’s what you’re doing: telling us if we don’t do just one of your arbitrarily selected things among the many things that gun rights advocates can do, you’re not really a gun rights advocate. It’s like saying if you don’t compete in the olympics for weight lifting for curls you’re not a weight lifter, even if we got gold in dead lift.
You are no better than anyone else. You are a person with a keyboard and a blog. I can find 20 people just like you pushing something. What makes you special? You’re equal to the rest of us. We are all equal.
And don’t tell me I’m not a gun rights advocate if I don’t drink your koolaid ™. I am not a resident of Texas. If open carry hit my state’s ballot, sure, I wouldn’t mind voting “yes”. But I still have a concealed carry permit, and I’m still going to conceal, because I prefer it.
Where is there any natural law (what our Constitution was mostly based on) that states I must openly carry?
Sorry, Robert Farago, but you’re dead wrong. You have crossed the line into pushing your own agenda. As such, you’re now no different than CNN. You’re not here to educate me in this article, you’re here to tell me why I’m an idiot because I don’t believe like you.
Another article like this out of you and TTAG and I’m going to stop supporting you and move on to other places that don’t do stupid stuff like this. Like Concealed Nation. Like Christian Glock Group. Like Massad Ayoob’s blog.
It’s an opinion piece, chill the f out. Of course people like you think “being a gun rights advocate” is keeping an NRA membership and posting rants in internet forums hoping you hit your chosen echo chamber.
If people don’t know you carry, know you own a gun, or otherwise know you support the 2A, sorry bub you aren’t an advocate. Because being an advocate is going public.
So if RF’s opinion is too much for you and actually take offense, Don’t let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
… and, imagine that, he has an opinion. What’s your problem with that?
Well said, Robert!
I agree. The best way to keep a right is to make it obvious that you are exercising it.
If someone asks you why you’re carrying, and you say, “Because I can. Because I must. I must protect my gun rights for my children, my community and my country,” I doubt you will sway any hearts and minds, nor will you “normalize” that particular strategy of self-defense. Instead, you would be admitting that you’re using a deadly weapon as a prop to make a political statement. And you will be viewed as an extremist, radical, or nut-case. So I’m with RockOnHellChild on this one.
If/when I travel to a state where open carry is legal, I will do so. But it will be a personal decision on the most practical way to protect my life (and yours) from the very real evil that exists in this world with the most effective self-defense tool known to man. And if I can honestly provide that as the reason I carry whenever someone asks, it might just further our cause.
Weapons aren’t deadly. People can be, especially armed people. Your assessment is incorrect, the weapon is not a prop, it is being carried because it can be. If it is needed, it is properly available for use.
You might want to poke your head out of the ground a bit. Real world happenings seem to indicate you are mistaken. Open carriers report almost all positive results. From nobody reacting at all to positive reactions to inquisitive reactions providing the opportunity to talk. Even cases where people react poorly tend to resolve with those people learning that OC is acceptable. The very few who over react do not paint us as extreme, they among the rest of us stand out as extremists and irrational.
Nice to see RF change his position to pro-OC. Anti-OC POTG are literally the worst.
Literally the worst what?
Sadly enough, even if I wanted to, I practically couldn’t, which is why I conceal…
1. I work for Bass Pro Shops. Johnny Morris has banned employees from carrying a firearm on company property either on or off the clock. Therefore I conceal off the clock.
2. I go to a university. I cannot open carry there legally speaking, but seeing as I am sitting in the library right now with a concealed carry firearm on my hip, and it’s perfectly legal, I’ll continue doing that.
Good points in this article.
Open carry does have it’s liabilities as noted in the comments particularly related to security risk, but creating a norm of commonplace gun possession by many citizens must be reestablished in some way (besides polls) to overcome the culture change the antis are inducing to condition everyone to “feel” and believe that ownership, use and carrying of a firearm is abnormal anti-social behavior that must be extinguished.
Those who can and are open carrying without being obnoxious about it are actually leading the effort to re-normalize gun ownership and over come the antis’ efforts to stigmatize all freedom loving gun owners as uncivilized anti social Neanderthals.
Although I usually believe that discretion is indeed the better form of valor, I will OC occasionally. Usually it will be when I am wearing my Arizona Citizen’s Defense League shirt anyways, so it’s no guess to what my opinion on the issue is.
I don’t think I will be doing this. I live in MN where it may be legal for permit holders. However, I have never seen anyone doing it here. I have also had the experience of getting caught comitting what many would consider a victimless misdemeanor at worst here and they opened a can of whoop-ass on me that cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars and took me 14 years to get out from under. I now shake like Chihuahua in a thunderstorm when the cops look at me. I’d have to be medicated to open carry here without getting an ulcer or having heart attack.
I am also not convinced that open carry does more good than harm – for me and others. Maybe that is just my fear talking, but it is real loud in my head. I am also loyal only to my conscience (or at least I try to be) and not to any group or notion.
RF if you really want those of us who disagree on this to STFU. Just make it clear in another post and I will not attend this blog anymore.
i dont see how it has a positive effect. when i as a concealed carrier look at open carriers and the first thought in my head is FUCKING MORON. how can non gun owners look at them in any other way? especially when they are already so preconditioned to hate and fear guns. i understand what the write is trying to say i just disagree
…when i as a concealed carrier look at open carriers and the first thought in my head is FUCKING MORON….
Maybe the first order of business is to deal with your own bigotry? After that, I think everything else will probably take care of itself.
The mere sight of a firearm pushes you to conclude someone is a moron and you think you are on our side in any way, shape or form?
Newsflash: THE GUN IS NOT A PROBLEM.
OC or don’t OC – your choice. But please stop feeding the grabber hysteria that the mere visibility of a gun can give a person the vapors.
The mere sight of a firearm pushes you to conclude someone is a moron and you think you are on our side in any way, shape or form?
Newsflash: THE GUN IS NOT A PROBLEM.
As usual: JR_in_NC is the voice of reason. +1
I got a concealed carry permit specifically so I didn’t HAVE to OC…
In MA, OC isn’t illegal, but there’s an unfortunate side effect. There is a reasonable potential that an OCer could be spotted by a cop and braced by him and a bunch of his angry friends, and the legal carrier might be cited for one or more bogus charges (disturbing the peace comes to mind).
Cops seem to enjoy using disturbance and similar charges to jam people up, just for giggles. I’ve seen it happen for inadvertent flashing, which also is not illegal. Twice. And in another case, the “flasher” was a fairly well-known lawyer. He wasn’t charged with anything, but he was detained and his gun taken from him. Yes, he got it back.
OTOH, sometimes it seems that I could tape a pistol to my forehead and wear it like a tiara and nobody in gun-ignorant MA would notice.
I have heard that if someone in MA sees you are carrying a gun and calls the cops, it may not result in immediate consequences (such as arrest), but you may find your “all lawful purposes” permit not renewed due to “bad judgment” when it’s renewal time.
I don’t open carry and I still won’t. I have lots of tattoos, long hair, a beard and wear dark blue jeans and black shirts. I know what the perception is of guys who look like I do and think me personally carrying a gun openly would do more harm for the cause than good.
Ah, very good!
OC is often enough advocacy and when advocacy is engaged in, it’s important to know how things are going to look to other people since you are deliberately drawing attention to yourself.
You are showing better judgment than many Tarrant County OCers do. Thank you.
…since you are deliberately drawing attention to yourself.
This is untrue. Open carrying does not inherently imply an intent to draw attention to oneself. The vast majority of people who open carry are merely exercising a right in the manner they deem most suitable.
I thought I was pretty clearly specifying OC done as advocacy.
I thought I was pretty clearly specifying OC done as advocacy.
I didn’t pick up on that – and I don’t think the comment you were replying to implied carrying – open or concealed – as advocacy.
More importantly: I think a lot of people have failed to pick up on the OP’s implication of carrying done as advocacy, which has led to a lot of the blowback in the comments.
Nobody has ever troubled me for looking “biker” and OCing, of course I don’t have the tats. Still, the doo-rag, vest, boots, etc, make it pretty obvious.
many in nc called harris teeter hariless peter.
The sooner people realize it is a culture war that Moms Demand and CSGV are waging, and not “gun safety” or “gun violence”, the better.
Don’t for get to find and take a new person to the firing range!
Oh, B.S. This is strident even by TTAG standards. It sounds vodka-infused. At 10:00 a.m.? Dude, seriously?
Open carry is great and I will do it next year when the new Texas Governor’s signature takes effect. To declare OC as THE battleground, though, is not only to ignore, but to deny and disparage, the enormity and gravity of victories in court and in legislatures. It completely dismisses Take a Newbie sessions at the range, dinner tables casual conversations, and even spirited debates and impassioned defenses read by newcomers and fencesitters alike in here. It’s an insult to firearms owners and activists everywhere who are doing what they can, where they can, to effect greater freedom.
Washington’s background check backslide referendum alone belies the OC panacea theory. And how do you explain firearm freedoms gains in states that have no OC? Defending and extending the right to keep and bear arms is a never-ending struggle with many fights on many fronts. Success requires a range of weapons, not just OC.
Proclaiming one approach unequivocally superior to all others, and those others its mere derivatives, is as reckless and ridiculous as declaring one caliber to be the one caliber to rule them all. Good grief, I thought we were past that.
Everything you said.
More of this, please?
you are not in the position to be telling others ” you only support the cause this way”. that is exactly what we hate about the “antis” just pointing that out. “only the siths deal in absolutes”. lets not let our emotions dictate our decisions.
Man, the other week I was an idiot for still having one of those useless, antiquated, icky ol’ shotguns for HD…
Now, I’m a sell-out for not moving my carry pistol from under my shirt to over my shirt…
What’s on next weeks agenda…
“Only sissies like titties and beer…” or “You’re not cool unless you hate puppies…”
1) If you “must” OC because “it’s your right”, then I expect to see you OCing a rifle everywhere you legally can, all the time. If you don’t, then by your own standards you’re not a “real” gun rights advocate.
2) I don’t carry to make a political statement. I carry to defend myself, my family, and innocent people around me. I can do that better by not advertising the fact that I’m armed. For 20 years I’ve carried in a manner that makes tactical sense. I’m not going to compromise that in order to make the political statement someone else thinks I have to make.
3) I’m not required to conform to someone else’s view of what a “real” 2A supporter is. I’d say groups like OCT and OC Tarrant County are enemies of the 2A, because they intentionally take actions guaranteed to alienate fellow Americans and add support for new gun control laws. That’s my opinion. OCT and OCTC don’t have to change anything they do to conform to my definition of a 2A supporter, and I don’t have to do anything to conform to RF or anyone else’s.
I agree with a great many things published on TTAG, but not this. These kind of pronouncements are one ideological step away from a purge of those you consider “Thought Criminals”. I won’t OC, I’ll continue to advocate for gun rights in writing and speech, and I will not STFU.
1. No one truly has any control over what your opposition intends to perceive or propagate, based on your comments, actions, or positions.
2. No siree: Owning a gun, carrying a gun, defending with a gun in 21st Century Amerika, will ALWAYS be a political act, whether you like it or not, or intended it as an intentional statement or not.
3. You’re correct: “I’m not required to conform to someone else’s view of what a “real” 2A supporter is.” But, indeed, even as you state:
… nor are ‘they.’ Which just simply becomes a circle of ‘I’m not required to conform. Oh yeah? Well, nor are we to yours!!’ Which brings us to a net neutral point.
4. This:
…is merely your opinion (as you indeed stated) that ONLY becomes effectual, if enough others and particularly among activist gunnies share and become vocally critically massive to a point of doing anything about them, then they MAY naturally go away and become irrelevant, but general vox populi trajectory is FOR OC, regardless.
But really, “enemies”?? Hardly. And, if you’re not the ‘march in public’-activist type, and are willing to visibly physically counter them? It’s a moot point.
Besides, one cannot control your opposition’s, nor your ‘drive-by’ non-gunnie casual bystanders’ perceptions, anyway.
Like it or not, MLK was only possible, precisely because Malcolm X concurrently existed, contemporarily in his time, for people to observe and perceptually be visibly subconsciously reminded, tacitly: either ‘deal with me, or deal with the likes of him and other ‘extremists,’ at least as far as actual policy pleadings and those among policy control levers were concerned.
That, like it or not, is just how people and politics in reality work: you can do your best to massage a particular ‘perception’ of x, y, z, but in the end, what is or becomes or prevails as the cultural norm eats politics and PR for brunch, lunch, and steak dinner, every time.
And ‘cultural norm’ doesn’t change with 100% genteel grandmas and grandpas and soccermoms ‘pleading’ the case. Sometimes a nudge needs an AustinBullDawg “1776 will commence again…” tip-over to accelerate it along, whether by design, or by inadvertent proxy. The former you may think you have control over, but the latter you certainly have no control over.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, if you’re a OC-activist), no amount of collectivist PR derived sentiment of ‘your actions make the whole of us look bad’ matters, nor can be controlled to begin with anyway. It’s a fruitless affair, regardless.
Plus, it’s that type of collectivist arbitrary non-sequitur ‘you make all of us look bad’ emotive insecurity sentiment, is what has always allowed the FUDDs to persist, along with the hoplophobic majority.
Nelson, your whole post is full of win.
This sums up the OC / anti-OC debate within the ‘gun owner group’ quite nicely:
“Plus, it’s that type of collectivist arbitrary non-sequitur ‘you make all of us look bad’ emotive insecurity sentiment, is what has always allowed the FUDDs to persist, along with the hoplophobic majority.”
I especially like the use of “arbitrary” in that description. It always amazes me how so many people think just because they emotively believe (or want to believe) something that makes it true.
OC activists “making us look bad” is an excellent specific example.
Their attempts to shame us like smokers will not turn out the way they think it will. ENDO apparel makes great gun-proud apparel:
http://www.endoapparel.com/
I am a gunnie and I’m proud!
I used the feedback link on Harris Teeter’s website and sent a thank you note (text below) to them. I got a reply less than an hour later saying “thanks we’ve sent it to senior management”. Full text of reply also below. I’d encourage folks to also let these companies know we care what they do and we have money too!
—My Note–
Please forward this to Senior Management. I want to thank you for not giving in to a minority interest group that operates on misinformed assumptions or outright disingenuous intentions to restrict the civil rights of citizens for misguided reasons. Thank you for not doing as requested by Moms Demand Action and other groups who ask us to give up our rights. So long as you continue to do the right thing and not violate or restrict my rights you will continue to have my thanks and my patronage.
—Harris Teeter CS Reply—
Thank you for your email. We want to thank you for taking the time to provide us with your feedback, as we enjoy reading customer feedback. Please rest assured that your comments have been shared with Senior Staff. We want to thank you for being a customer and please let us know if there is anything else that we can do for you.
Thank you for shopping at Harris Teeter!
Sincerely,
Kayla
Harris Teeter Customer Relations
Reference: #1727714
great memo. i am spreading this one as far as i can.
OPEN CARRY SATURDAYS
This is what I’d like to see. We all know there are a LOT of people who CC on a daily basis. I’d like to see, about once every three months, a well publicized nationwide (in those areas that permit it) OPEN CARRY SATURDAY where everyone who CC’s is encouraged to open carry, just for that day.
A few of those, and people would start to realize the number of legally carried concealed guns that are around them every day of the week. One step towards stopping this demonization of a hunk of metal and plastic.
The Yankee Marshal advocates for “every 2nd matters”. Where you participate by OCing the 2nd of every month. Further if OC is not allowed or you feel uncomfortable with it alternatives are wearing an exposed empty holster or a shirt displaying the message.
Not sure I agree with the notion that more exposure to people OC’ing will do anything positive. This isn’t a cut and dry “if more people see it, they’ll be conditioned to accept it” bit of psychology here. I’m guessing with this (as the author is obviously doing), but I’d bet that there are a fair amount of people out there who don’t agree with taking away rights as a matter of conscience, but if exposed ‘all of a sudden’ by larger, and larger numbers of OC’ers, may indeed feel that this one matter is a time for restraining a right.
Comparing this to something like the gay rights movement is specious, frankly. Ya, we’ve got legislation that is more and more pro gay rights now. But based on anecdotal evidence, along with things like prop 8, I’m not sure the public conscience is actually more and more in favor of it. Do we really want to experiment with our 2A rights by having us all strap on a firearm in the belief that more exposure will do the cause of defending our rights any good?
I’m of the opinion that we should encourage everyone to express their support of the 2A in whatever way their conscience, and good judgement (along with regard for local laws) dictates. If that’s OC’ing, great. If that’s CC’ing, great. If that’s taking a hunters safety course and beginning the sport of hunting, great. If that’s petitioning your local/state/federal representatives to support 2A legislation, great. Whatever it is, do it. But don’t make sweeping declarations about what is and isn’t effective, without some sort of evidence to back it up.
My opinion on the gay rights cause along with much of civil rights in general is that they were on the right path with public displays of solidarity and defiance. In both cases those actions displayed to the world at large the humanity of the people protesting. Ignorant people are happy enough to allow oppression to happen, they believe that the negro needs to be kept down for the greater good and that the gay is an abhorrent thing that threatens them in some way. The downfall of both was giving up the hard fight for the instant gratification of legislation. No piece of paper equals the benefit of the recognition of your humanity by your fellow man. Let’s keep that in mind as we tally our victories in the form of laws. Laws don’t make gay people any more free, how can they make us free?
“Why? Because I can. Because I must. I must protect my gun rights”
There’s your answer. Whenever or not POTG should open carry comes down to whether or not it is gaining or losing ground for gun rights. Depending on those you open carry around, it may or may not be protecting your gun rights.
It might be effective to stage an open carry rally and hand out brochures on gun rights and their social utility to the fence sitters, tell folks to watch for the media coverage of this event and see if it matches their first hand perceptions.
It might be wiser to do the same without open carrying in some areas. And other areas might be pro gun enough that individual open carry just keeps the perception from sliding towards anti gun.
If open carry is the only way you can carry a firearm then of course go ahead.
But if you’re going to bring “protecting gun rights” into the equation, then you are necessarily talking about how it affects public perception, and while you don’t really HAVE to consider this to exercise a right, you do yourself a favor if your do consider it.
I like open carry Texas, I liked what they were trying to do. But I think they were sloppy about it.
Well, that’s the Lincoln twins from me.
well how else would Farago be able to let his custom Wilson Combat out for fresh air??
😀
You really don’t even have to carry, to engage in the fight. How about a T-shirt that reads “I could be carrying a gun — the law says so. / Cab guys, want to risk it?”
I think a tee shirt series with quips that would get other people realizing that hundreds of people around them are carrying firearms and would come to their rescue if needed would constitute advocacy.
I’m not willing to devote my entire life to furthering gun rights. I’m not willing to degrade my life by damaging relationships and inviting negative attention and condemnation because I open carry. I am still a gun rights advocate, but I am other things besides. It’s easy for a guy like Farago who advocates gun rights professionally, writes pro-gun articles for USA Today, and will appear on television to promote gun rights to open carry. He’s publicly associated himself with gun rights. I doubt he’ll ever be able to run for office or go on a talk show without Shannon Watts and her kind calling for him to be shunned and vilified as a crazy, dangerous insurrectionist. I don’t open carry but I might consider doing so in a retention holster for political pro-gun reasons at a gun rights rally or when volunteering at say, my young daughter’s school bake sale (if legal and if I had a daughter). Selling cupcakes with a fully-loaded M&P on my hip I think would send a positive message that I’m not just a gun owner, I’m a human being. If anyone asks, I’ll tell them the truth that I’m carrying a gun only to protect others in an extreme emergency. Or I might do it at any other volunteer work where I don’t care too much if I do it or not and would be willing to make it my participation conditional upon being allowed to openly carry a firearm.
Yo. Farrago. Don’t EVER tell me that I’m not a gun rights advocate because I don’t do as you say. EVER.
Concealed carry is of no use to me, I don’t carry a purse. Besides, Open Carry is the right guaranteed by the Constitution, concealed carry can be prohibited.
“[A] right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”” District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 – Supreme Court (2008) at 2809.
“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.” District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 – Supreme Court (2008) at 2816.
“We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.” McDonald v. City of Chicago, Ill., 130 S. Ct. 3020 – Supreme Court (2010) at 3050.
“[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms (art. 2) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons…” Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 US 275 – Supreme Court (1897) at 282
Charles Nichols – President of California Right To Carry
http://CaliforniaRightToCarry.org
Strangely, the other enumerated rights include their limitations in the enumeration, i.e.”peacable assembly”. The 2A says “shall not be infringed”. It takes the judiciary to discover limitations not even hinted at in the enumeration. Hidden asterisks I guess.
The limitations are primarily due to the fact that the Second Amendment was applied to the states via the 14th Amendment which means that the Second Amendment as it was understood in 1868 is the Second Amendment which applies to the states. That means no right to carry concealed.
In any event, although there weren’t prohibitions on the carrying of weapons concealed in 1791 there were severe restrictions on their use. With few exceptions, if one used a concealed weapon to kill someone then he was guilty of murder unless he could prove that he didn’t intend on using the concealed weapon in which case he was guilty of manslaughter. Short of using a concealed weapon against a highwayman or other armed robber, justifications for using a concealed weapon were few and far between.
Concealed weapons are for women to carry in their purses and as I said, concealed carry is of no use to me as I don’t carry a purse and I certainly don’t seek some “secret advantage or unmanly assassination.”
That limitation only because of BS incorporation arguments. Getting to antebellum times and claiming no right to conceal existed, therefore it is not part of the 2A is a tenuous argument at best. Again, government selective interpretation of simple statements.
Don’t forget this one as well…..
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
…..seems they forgot that part when laying with incorporation arguments.
Let me parse it to make it an easier read for you…
“This Constitution shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” That incorporates the BOR all by itself.
The so-called “severe restrictions” to which you allude are not necessarily legitimate or true. But hey, any excuse works so long as it keeps you from exercising a “scary” right. Even the 1A doesn’t give you protection from repercussions for false statements. You are free to speak, but can be held responsible for exercising it to wrongly impugn someone. Notice as well, no “prior restraint” in the 1A. They don’t tape your mouth to prevent you saying wrong things. But disarmed is no problem? I can be responsible for my own actions, don’t need gov to make those decisions for me.
I open carry almost every day. Granted I wear my gun for work (small private security company), but I also wear it everywhere to and from. Out of the dozens of random people I come across every day, including a fair amount of cops, the only person I’ve ever gotten flack from was a concealed carrier.
Idea for consideration. Make an organized effort to photobomb these idiot with an NRA shirt or something. The subtler the better. Engage them in conversation the make them realize how stupid they are as in “no lady, AK does not stand for automatic killer and a ruger 10/22 cannot kill 22 with 10 shots.” My favorite option is linking up with the freedom riders and surround MDMA I mean MDA with the noise from revving motorcycles.
Another news story stated that the petitions they keep going around with, to all the states and stores, are the same ones. They just keep trying to make it look like they have new signatures, when in fact, they don’t. Kroger even ran them off the property. Here’s one story, “On November 20, Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America delivered a petition to the Harris Teeter grocers asking them to bar law-abiding citizens from carrying guns in their stores. Harris Teeter responded by saying they have no plans to change their policy, which allows the carrying of guns in states and municipalities where doing so is legal.
According to The Charlotte Observer, North Carolina-based Harris Teeter issued a statement expressing its position: “We have and will continue to adhere to the firearms and concealed handgun laws as outlined by states in which we do business. We believe this issue is best handled by lawmakers, not retailers.”
Breitbart News previously reported that Moms Demand was rebuffed by Kroger in August, after they pressured that grocery chain to bar law-abiding citizens from carrying guns in its stores. Kroger told Moms Demand they abide by state and local laws and trust their customers “to be responsible” to carry guns where allowed”. And another, ” Anti-Gun jackasses get shut down by Kroger’s managers. Check this out.
Moms Demand Action has adopted the tactic of attempting to isolate and bully individual companies into accepting their prohibitionist gun control philosophy. Their goal is to accomplish through bullying what they cannot establish through legislation: reducing the number of places that law-abiding citizens can exercise their basic human right to self-defense.
The republic’s largest supermarket chain is the latest target of Michael Bloomberg’s fake grassroots gun prohibitionist organization, and the chain has stood tall in defense of the common sense position that private companies best serve their customers by abiding by local, state and federal laws, not writing their own.
This has led Moms Demand to shift tactics from their normal social media bullying tactics, to sending paid staffers to deliver a photocopied stack of petition signatures to individual cameras as part of a photo-op campaign. Yes, they’re attempting to deliver the same photocopied stack of signatures to stores around the nation.
A Kroger manager refused to play that game yesterday, causing Moms Demand founder Shannon Watts to Tweet the following from her suburban mansion in ultra-white, ultra wealthy Zionsville, Indiana”. http://clashdaily.com/2014/10/denied-kroger-managers-refuse-anti-gun-bullying-tactics-moms-demand-action-newsadd-twitter-pics/ And then there’s this: ” The group even set up a separate website with a form that made it easy for their supporters to click and make a mobile-phone call directly to Kroger headquarters. View the site here.
As previously reported by WND, the policy changes at Target and Jack in the Box have done nothing to make the stores safer as numerous violent crimes have taken place at local outlets since the new gun policies went into effect.
The first murder occurred at a Target only weeks after the no-guns request, and there was a string of armed robberies just days after the request. Jack in the Box has had its own set of problems, with armed robberies following its policy of asking law-abiding customers to disarm”.
http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/kroger-snubs-gun-grabbing-moms-demand-action/
could not agree more… I’ve open carried in WI for years… Open carry sends a clear message to the good and bad alike. The more who OC, the more acceptable it becomes. I will carry on.
“Because open carriers – nice, normal people carrying guns in public while peaceably going about their business – will normalize guns.”
Exactly!!!, especially if women start to open carry since we are percieved as less of a threat
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