In the screen cap above (full video below) you can see no less than four robbers entering Le Jardin, a wine bar in West Kirby (UK). In fact, there are five. Four of them wield machetes, one a gun. Now I don’t know about you but . . .
https://youtu.be/BJTlX1OcOdA
The smallest gun I pocket carry is the most excellent all-steel five-star Kahr MK9. It holds six-plus-one rounds of 9mm. When it’s on-body, I carry a spare mag holding another six rounds. My main carry gun is the five-star Wilson Combat EDC X9, holding 15-plus-one rounds of nine. And I carry a 15-round spare mag.
If you carry a lower-capacity handgun — for whatever reason — remember that you can be out-gunned. Make that out-ammoed. Why not carry a spare mag, and know how to reload quickly and efficiently? If nothing else, the mag is the bit of the gun most likely to fail.
One more thing: if you’re carrying a lower capacity handgun, keep that in mind. Adjust your tactics accordingly. In other words, be ready to get the Hell out of Dodge. Which you should be no matter how many rounds you have at your disposal only, perhaps, more so.
And if you’re in the UK good luck with carrying ANYTHING…
You might want to reconsider that single stack 1911 too.
pfft where have you been? its a 1911 in 45 acp, one shot and they explode and you can stand there hands on hips head held high, just like captain Morgain
In states that only allow 10 round magazines, the beautiful 1911 is more than equal to the task. I use 10 round magazines in my 1911 all the time.
10 rounds of .45 cal JHP are much better than 10 rounds of 9mm JHP.
When adjunct professoring for two “car pool U’s”, I carried a P3AT or a Taurus 709 Slim on one ankle, and two spare mags on the other. No one was going to hurt my kids !
In all likelihood, these five punks would have bolted as soon as anyone started shooting back at them. See the video of the old guy in the Florida casino with a pocket .380. The gun toting and bat carrying punks ran as soon as he started shooting.
On the other hand, five DETERMINED attackers/jihadis etc. might not bail out. Then, you are likely screwed.
Still, I think a 5 shot .38sp, or a 6-7 shot .380 will cover the vast majority of situations (and you will actually have the gun on you). Somehow my 642 goes with me almost everywhere, while my Glock 19 and 22 usually stay home.
Always have my Keltec PF9, with a spare mag….or two.
Why carry a manual action pistol?
Glad to hear it. I love my PF9 with an extra mag. 9mm HPs, reliable, and easy to conceal when in a non-permissive environment.
When I first got my cpl I would usually carry a NAA mini magnum loaded with 30 grain hornady v-max. I sometimes still carry that if I absolutely can’t be discreet with something bigger, but I’ve pretty much gone to full timing a Glock 19 now.
I still think carrying s mouse gun is great though, and is probably good enough to resolve 99% of encounters including ones like these. If that first guy ate a .22mag on the way in there likely would only have been one intruder anyway. These types of people aren’t known for loyalty and devotion to their own.
It doesn’t make me want to abandon my 6+1 mouse gun because I would not carry at all if I had to carry a big, heavy and bulky gun. I figure my 6+1 will take care of 99.99999999% of any circumstances I might encounter and the chance of having an encounter at all is probably one in a million here in the sticks. I think I will stick with my mousegun.
“… the chance of having an encounter at all is probably one in a million here in the sticks.”
I would not count on that. Criminals like remote locations because two highly desirable factors are virtually guaranteed:
(1) There will be no passersby (witnesses) to worry about.
(2) Police response time will be something like 20 to 40 minutes.
I live in the midst of farm country about 20 minutes away from a population center … a disturbing number of people in my township have endured thieves, burglars, and even a couple home invasions. The common denominator in all instances: the homes were remote and had no more than one “neighbor” within a half mile in any direction.
I live in a rural area, often several miles from paved roads and 20 from an LEO. Self defense is the only defense.
simple, just dont call the cops. Demarius and Jamarkus would be pig food if they step on my property, the NAACP be f%cked
If you live in southern Oregon, you better be carrying. The chance that law enforcement will be on the scene is almost nil, unless you are now a cadaver.
My brother was pistol whipped and ended up in the hospital for several days. Law enforcement never even responded because “There are only 2 deputies and we can’t respond to all cases.”
What are the chances it will happen to you? May not be high, but also it isn’t 0.
the Wilson link takes you to Kahr……thought it was a mistake, but you can carry 4 Kahrs for the price of the Wilson and not have to reload…
Fix’d
the stress of shooting in real life accounts for a lot of the poor hit ratios you see, 6 or 7 rounds isn’t much if you haven’t done it before…..
Some of us own 17 round 9mm’s and also 6 round .380’s because the mouse gun is all that works with dress clothing. Agree that when carrying the .380 one should also have a spare mag. But enough of the constant dissing of those of us who have to wear formal clothing, tuck in our shirts, not sport a huge IWB holster with two huge belt clips, and not print at work. We won’t buy oversize clothing. We CAN’T just drop our jobs. If we did, we couldn’t afford our guns or ammo. And then we might turn out like the loon that shot up the Congressional baseball game because we want other people’s money and the current Congress won’t give it to us. You don’t want that. I don’t want that. 9mm came first. .380 came after realizing that I just could not carry the 9 into work. .380 disappears into multiple pockets. 9 requires casual clothing, at least on me. And many others. Including most women, at least the small cute ones. Like my wife and daughter. Unless we want them carrying in a huge purse that is apt to be stolen or so full of junk that they couldn’t even find the Wilson Combat much less the .380. Which we don’t.
Regarding the restaurant robbery, like at the Pulse nightclub, the clubs in Paris, the kosher grocery in Paris, etc. etc. the business should have had (or in the European case should have been allowed to have) shotguns or semi auto rifles behind the counter and in the back room. Not a handgun caliber issue.
BTW I do like this site and have learned a lot. Including loading the mouse guns with Fiocchi .380’s using Hornady XTP bullets as published on this site by Shootin the Bull 410 a few years ago.
I started out life (well 18) with a Detective Special .38 cal. Then I carried a Garcia/FIE Mod D .380 for many years as a backup. A while back I bought a Bersa Firestorm .380 which I like very much. Recently, I (this is CA) was able to purchase a S&W Mod 60 SS .38 Spl being sold on consignment.
I carry based on the situation. Like how I must dress. Unfortunately, I can’t afford to fly to London and have my clothes special made by James Bond’s tailors.
ATTAGReader,
What I hear almost universally is, “Carry the biggest gun you can.”
Clearly you cannot carry a .50 AE Desert Eagle because your job would fire you. And it sounds like your job would fire you if you carried a full-size semi-auto pistol with a double-stack magazine which means you cannot carry that, either. Finally, it sounds like you can carry a single stack sub-compact pistol which is what you have chosen to carry. Sounds good to me.
If your work environment allows you to bring in and store a notebook computer bag, document satchel, briefcase, backpack, etc., consider discretely storing a full-size semi-auto pistol in one of those at your desk, locker, workstation, etc. If someone immediately surprises/attacks you in the workplace, you have your sub-compact pistol available immediately. If there is a spree killer attack which allows you enough time to access your satchel/briefcase/backpack, then you will be good to go that route.
Have you got anything to declare?
Yeah. Stay the hell out of England.
awesome movie
I carry either a G26 with a 12 round magazine, or a Kahr CM9 with two spare 6 round magazines. There are occasions when I carry a Kahr CW380 with two spares. And sometimes I carry the CM9 with its spares and the CW380 in my pocket.
I’ve not yet decided to carry the G26 with two G19 mags.
If you can’t get a permit cause apparently human and civil rights are dependent on your zip code you carry discretely.
Depending on how I’m dressed its a Ruger p89 or a Beretta Bobcat.
The UK is a lost cause. There are very good reasons why we went to war against them. Some people or should I say entire nations are on the Darwin Award list.
Read up on your history. It wasn’t the people of England you rebelled against, it was the King and the idiot Aristocrats. The people of England were some of the first settlers and rebelled against the lack of freedom, which is why they came to the New World in the first place…..and we are still coming. The current situation in the UK is no different to the crime world wide. The policy has always been strict control on guns, since the Wars. The Government knew what was likely to happen when the ‘Boys’ came home with no work likely and considering the things they had to do to survive. They were able to control to a point. The Criminals still managed to get guns and always will. As usual Politicians never learn from History. The open borders have destroyed the security of Europe. They will always be behind in chasing the terrorists. Allowing guns will not improve the situation for the public. The culture is not there. I shot IPSC until they took the guns away. The US has always had the gun culture due to the time and necessity of a developing Country which is vast and required taming. Why the Politicians continue to talk about Gun Control is beyond me. It is impossible at this point in time. There are millions of guns out there, and even more ammo. The advocates for GC would be better spending their funds on increased funds for Police and encourage the Law abiding Citizen’s to support them in their fight against crime. An armed LAC when necessary.
Unless prohibited by law carry a medium to full sized gun. Can’t conceal it? Bollocks, you ain’t trying.
Amen….I am at my office in business casual with a Glock 21…have seen at least 40 people today, not a single person “made” my gun that I am aware of….and I am very conscious of keeping it concealed.
While I have tailored clothes from my previous life specifically made to create room for a handgun, shoulder harnessed weapons and accessories, all of my current work clothes are straight off the rack.
Show me someone carrying a full sized gun under a tucked in polo and slacks who, during the course of the day, is both behind a desk and still manages to walk in excess of six miles, in and out of approximately 30-40 cars, sitting, standing, bending, and stretching, and manages to keep it concealed while doing so. I’ll wait.
Actually, no I won’t. You cannot do it. It’s not possible. I don’t care. It’s not. People will notice. I carry a P238 in an IWB Supertuck, and people have noticed it. They are good people, who don’t care, but there is very definitely more people than you can count on one hand that know I carry at work, where I’m officially not allowed to by company policy. Because the shirt stretches just right every so often, and it’s simply unavoidable. I’m pretty sure there are a couple more that I don’t know know, because they have not let on that they know. One is my immediate supervisor. If he acknowledged it, he’d find it necessary to be responsible for it, and he’d rather not. So he’s willfully blind.
My point is, those like you who say “you ain’t trying” are fooling themselves. You could get a small howitzer past the general public in most situations, but at work, around people who see you every day, who stand behind you at the copy machine and the coffee maker, who exchange with you playful jabs and affectionate touches, it’s only a matter of time, trying or not.
First, you need to find a job that lets you wear cargo shorts with a baggy untucked t-shirt. Second, does your wife know about these ‘affectionate touches’ you’ve been getting at work?
I used to work at Tommy Bahama. Untucked shirts, shorts, and flip-flops e’ryday. Didn’t carry there, though. Didn’t have my permit yet. Other than being retail, which universally sucks, it was a great place to work. Decent pay, generous vacation, awesome clothing with an allotment every quarter… I’d go back there if I was comfortable making a third (or less) of what I make now.
And I don’t have a wife. Ladies, he’s single…
Well then, by all means proceed (with caution).
“People will notice. I carry a P238 in an IWB Supertuck, and people have noticed it. They are good people, who don’t care, but there is very definitely more people than you can count on one hand that know I carry at work, where I’m officially not allowed to by company policy.”
You’ve mentioned something that I think is a lot more prevalent than many people think. The college I once worked at had “gun-free-zone” policy notices all over the place and made a big deal about publicly announcing it. Nonetheless, there were faculty and staff members who carried. There was a tacit understanding on the campus that as long as long as no one made an issue of it, nothing would be done. This went on for years.
It’s called a “sport coat”. Hides your gun and makes you look more professional. It’s hot? Get a summer weight.
Or you can roll like me, a three piece suit.
Sorry, this argument is just an excuse. SS Agents do what you’re talking about while rocking an MP5K and a sidearm.
It’s laziness and a penchant for immediate comfort. Nothing more. If you care, there’s a way. If you don’t then man up and admit that being as comfortable as possible is your top priority.
I do this shit all day most months of the year in a situation where if I’m caught I get tossed from my University and will probably be blackballed and never finish my degree. Don’t tell me it can’t be done.
Oh stop it.
First of all, not all or even most USSS (not “SS”) agents carry an MP5 and pistol while wearing a suit. A couple in the group might, but most of the good toys remain in the chase vehicle with the response teams. Most carry pistols. But NONE of them do anything like what you’re describing above- concealing- because they don’t need to. They are known and expected to carry firearms and if you spent any time around one you would know that they do because of printing, moving jackets, etc.
For our friends here who have to conceal and face actual consequences if they don’t this is not an option. But keep nagging if it’s what makes you feel better.
Look around, buddy. The world you live in with your three-piece suits is a small minority of the real world.
I realize that it doesn’t look that way to you, because you are surrounded by other suits, but the people who let you be that way don’t wear suits, they wear work clothes. The people you rely on to keep you fed, clothed, transported, comfortable at home… they don’t wear suits. When your car breaks down, your phone or computer stops working, your toilet backs up, you need a new roof, or a piece of glass replaced, notice how few suits show up to do the work.
No, carrying concealed is often hard, because we aren’t all like you, rocking a three-piece suit.
Working in a construction equipment rental yard, rocking a t-shirt and jeans, often climbing on equipment, driving a delivery truck, getting on the floor doing maintenance… carrying concealed is kinda hard doing all that.
But go on sitting in your comfortable office, thinking it’s easy because it’s easy for you. The rest of us will do what we can to keep you up there.
I too wear suits to work, in a gun free environment, carrying a G19, 2 spare mags and a SW .380 bodyguard. It’s never been noticed. I do buy my coats in 40 or 42 when I’m technically a 38, but those are the breaks.
Also, no one I work with would even consider touching me, you’re doing it wrong for a concealed carrier in your environment if you’re getting touched where your gun is.
The hard part for me is funerals, everybody wants to hug, and anyone shorter than me wants to go below my arms, meaning they want to hug my gun. I’ve learned to lock my elbows at my sides to prevent this. Also, complaining of a bad back helps explain unnatural movements used to maintain concealment. There isn’t always a way, but jackets and coats do make it much easier.
I don’t carry a mouse gu n, but I’m pretty confident that the sound of 6 Double Tap .357 magnum rou nds hurling in their general direction will greatly discourage most any machete wielding scumbag. Otherwise, in a pinch I can rip off 2 rou nds from a speed strip and get back in the action in maybe 4 seconds. If I’ve got 10 I can load all 6.
Well, in a similar situation, I’d want a room full of armed cops, a couple well trained attack dogs and body armour. But is it wise to alter what works for us based on 1 instance? What if the video were of 5 perps each with a high cap pistol? Do we argue against pistols and say we should be carrying nothing less than a thompson machine gun and grenades? The best weapon is the one you carry. For me its sometimes a 5 shot model 642 loaded with .38 +P, sometimes a model 686 with 7 rounds of .357, I’ve a model 92F Beretta 9 mm that I don’t trust yet as a carry pistol as its had some ejection issues. Unless I truly have no choice, in any situation involving thugs, my first goal is to get the hell out, preferably without having to engage at all. If forced into it, then I’d fight with whatever I have at hand. Nice thing about the 642 is the laser grip which not only allows for aiming without exposing myself too much, but has really helped with trigger control improving my groups with all weapons by dry firing while trying to keep the dot steady. BTW we’ve seen that edged weapons by determined attackers are not to be taken lightly.
Get a MagGuts kit and turn your 6+1 mouse gun into a 7+1. Very easy to install, you don’t have to be mechanically inclined.
In the immortal words of Deadpool, “I’ve only got ___ bullets. Some of you are going to have to share.”
Seriously, I don’t know that a full size service pistol will make that much of a difference other than it’s easier to shoot and control. The perps are either going to run by round 6 or you’re going to be at pistol whipping aka machete range.
I guess I carry a “rat” gun, 8+1, or with a slightly longer mag, 10+1 single stack in 9mm. conceals well on my 6′ 165lb frame.
I don’t know if I’m a Col. Jeff Cooper acolyte or not, but my favorite carry pistols are a Glock 27 and a Glock 36 loaded with JHP’s. Both have extra round magazines. I’m not the best shot there ever was with a handgun but I figure if I DO get a hit it’s going to put him down so that I can move to the next assailant.
Computers: Buy the most powerful you can afford. Fastest CPU, most RAM, biggest hard drive.
Guns: Buy the biggest caliber you can shoot ACCURATELY – and learn to carry it. Which, unless you’re a really big guy, leaves out everything over .45 and everything under .38 SPL.
Revolvers: Good for target practice and handgun hunting. Bad for self-defense. Too slow to reload, too low capacity (with the possible exception of ten-round capacity revolvers – but how easy are they to conceal compared to a ten-round capacity semi-auto?)
Semi-Autos under 10-Round Capacity: Bad for self-defense – unless you can reload it from a spare mag in 1 to 1.5 seconds. So learn to do that and carry one or more spare mags. Otherwise, carry a large-capacity gun, the more capacity the better. Make your spare mags higher-capacity than the one in your gun if necessary to improve concealment.
Best Solution: More than one gun. Carry two of the same type and size, or at least two of the same caliber, one full-capacity magazine, one lesser-capacity magazine in a smaller form factor. No need to reload in this situation, but carry spare mags ANYWAY.
Planning for the “average” incident is planning to fail. If you think that’s paranoid, 98-99% of CCW people will never use their handgun. They’re ALREADY paranoid. Be slightly more paranoid and increase your survival odds.
Revolvers: superior for self defense. They don’t jam. They don’t go out of battery when pressed into an attacker’s ribs. They’re more accurate. They shoot .357 magnum and up. Sure, capacity is low, but you don’t need to do full mag-dumps because your caliber of choice is so weak. And like you said, you can always carry two.
IMHO you watch too much TV.
I carry a Desert Eagle 44 mag with 2 extra mags concealed for situations like this. My backup on my ankle is a S&W mod 29 44 mag with 2 1/2″ bbl (best to stick with same caliber in case a situation like this arises). Plus 2 speedloaders. I shoot perfect scores at 25 yds. My back hurts and I have a bad knee – can’t figure out why…
As for non-lethal, I’ve got two cans on OC (one for each hand if needed), an expandable baton, a taser and a switchblade. I also wear body armor and ballistic glasses. Knee and elbow pads are under my clothing (same for my cup). First aid kit is in fanny pack. I can’t tell you everything else but if you’re not at least carrying what I do – you’re seriously planning to fail.
LOL…
Any pistol you choose can easily lead to you being ‘outgunned.’ Luckily the chance of needing to use a gun in self-defense is remote; the chance of needing to use it to shoot, even more so. The chance of most people needing to engage multiple determined, armed bad guys is about nil. Yeah, it happens, but so do shark attacks, and I still go in the water.
Carry a gun, know how to use it. After that things get much less important.
Carry a PTR PDW and you will never be outgunned unless you get into a pitched sniper/GPMG battle!
Friends don’t let friends carry .380s!
My EDC is a Cz PCR. Heavy, but effective. I also ankle or pocket carry a S&W 342PD as a backup.
for the 3 piece suit fella, carry while while doing real physical work. piece would become so salt corroded make your sphincter work over time for the pucker factor!
If I wore a sport coat to work at the fire dept the brothers would most likely rip,it off me once they stopped laughing . Plus each time I meet another FF during the day we shake hands and often do the chest bump hug thing .
Here in south Florida, it is too hot and humid to wear a suit or sport coat while you are out and about. I usually wear those fishing/outdoors baggy shirts over a tee shirt, and either cargo pants or cargo shorts. What I carry depends on where I am going. Around my suburban neighborhood where it is usually safe, I carry a SIG P238, or a S&W Shield 9. When I venture into more “colorful” areas, I carry a Glock 30, a Glock 26, or Para Ordnance P12. It is harder to conceal effectively when living in hot and humid places like I do. Also, regardless of what gun I carry, there is always a spare mag, a knife, and a flashlight.
My Smith and Wesson Bodyguard 380 holds 7 rounds instead of 6 thanks to an aftermarket internal kit for the magazines, so I can have up to 15 shots available with one already in the pipe and a reload.
I carry a Desert Eagle 44 mag with 2 extra mags concealed for situations like this. My backup on my ankle is a S&W mod 29 44 mag with 2 1/2″ bbl (best to stick with same caliber in case a situation like this arises). My back hurts and I have a bad knee – can’t figure out why…
I like the S&W bodyguard 380 also. It can be concealed almost anyplace on the body without detection. It weighs 12oz. empty….maybe 15oz loaded with 7 . (HST’s 99 grain JHP) . I carry it all the time….my other guns stay home
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