West Virginia Mom Stops Kidnapping
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Yesterday we reported what we thought was yet another defensive gun use, one of the more than 1 million that take place in this country every year. A West Virginia woman was reported to have stopped her 5-year-old daughter from being abducted by drawing her concealed carry gun.

Now, however, upon further reflection, the woman may have over-reacted to the situation in a local mall. Here’s the AP’s report of what’s happened since Mohamed Fathy Hussein Zayan was arrested . . .

BARBOURSVILLE, W.Va. (AP) — A sensational case of an attempted child kidnapping in a West Virginia shopping mall may have been nothing more than a man being friendly to a little girl.

Barboursville police initially said a woman pulled a gun on the man, forcing him to release her 5-year-old daughter. Mohamed Fathy Hussein Zayan was arrested near the Huntington Mall’s food court on an attempted abduction charge Monday.

Zayan, 54, an engineer from Alexandria, Egypt, who is in the area for work, was released from jail Tuesday night on a reduced bond. News outlets report he cried as he greeted family members. Police Sgt. Anthony Jividen said a prosecutor will have to decide whether to charge the woman instead.

The woman at first told police Zayan grabbed the girl by the hair and tried to pull her away from inside a clothing store. Jividen said while no witnesses could be found, mall surveillance video showed inconsistencies in the woman’s original statement.

Jividen said the woman later told investigators she may have overreacted and misinterpreted the man’s intentions. Zayan doesn’t speak English and police say he may have simply been patting the girl on the head.

Jividen said the prosecutor also would have to determine whether Zayan would face a potential battery charge because of “the uninvited touching of a child. Even though there was an overreaction by the mother, it was not completely baseless.”

A telephone message left with the Cabell County prosecutor wasn’t immediately returned Wednesday.

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93 COMMENTS

  1. Well, I guess that looks bad…Another tale from the “Outer Limits…” Now the Liberal/Globalist NewsSpeak will use this as their usual Anti-2nd Amendment hit piece…

  2. I don’t see the problem. Sounds like she reacted instinctively. Had she fired the weapon it would be a different story. The fact that she didn’t (but was probably willing to if needed) makes her actions valid.

    • If you don’t have the need to shoot someone defensively, then you don’t have the right to brandish a weapon at them. This woman might be in considerable trouble if she can’t convince the DA that she was in fear for her life or the life of her child. The seeming inconsistencies between her story and the video don’t help her case, even if this guy was behaving improperly (and it sounds like he probably was, at least to some degree).

      • Agree. There should be a threat/need to pull a firearm. There was no need at all here to pull her firearm. I don’t think it probably rises to the level of charges for the woman but it wasn’t justified based on the current info

      • If you don’t have the need to shoot someone defensively, then you don’t have the right to brandish a weapon at them.

        Sorry but while that is a good rule of thumb, there is, in the actual prosecutions, and case dispositions a HUGE DIFFERENCE. There are plenty of cases were someone has shown a weapon even in protection of property with no prosecution — it happens often enough.

        Again what you are saying is a good rule of thumb for someone who doesn’t start out knowing firearms and self defense law. And I do think this may well be a prosecutable (we don’t know all the facts yet) and if he just patted her on the head it should be prosecuted. But i practical erms there is a difference — not the least of which is penalty difference between pulling a gun vs killin someone with one.

        • I was going to make that point myself, thousands of people use guns to KEEP something from happening not just after it happens.

        • It kind of depends on what state you live in….. which is bs but still true always good to know how your region defines defensive brandishing

      • *napresto, there are a million plus defensive handgun uses in the US every year, no way that’s even close to a million shots fired in defense of ones self or of another. Just because you pull doesn’t mean you have to fire, the mere presence of a firearm stops most attacks. Ex. If a man is walking towards me with a knife, in a menacing manner, I have every right to pull. If he stops and turns/runs away, I don’t shoot him anyway, just because I pulled, right? …and I for sure HAVE to pull, in this instance, right? I don’t have to wait for him to slide the knife into my gut!
        If she *felt her daughter’s life was in danger, she had every right to pull! Now, I’m not defending HER behavior, as it sounds like it was possibly out of fear of “the foreign guy”, but muh feels, right?

    • Yep, especially when the person touching your kid carries the name mohammad. Used to be able to talk to kids in public and there was nothing too concerning with it, especially if the kid comes up to you first. Theses days people should know better than to touch ANYONE of ANY age and to talk to kids outside of a reasonable age difference. Muslims and Arabs are known to be pedophiles so I find her actions perfectly

      Its a bit of an extended issue. If anyone, male or female, enters your office, the door needs to remain open and preferably with a witness or nanny cam near by. I personally feel bad for not helping an elderly couple last year but I didn’t feel like being sued by potential lawsuit hunters. Not directly asked for assistance, I’m hands off. Pathetic world we live in but thats the shitty state of the world.

      • That’s all BS, no one touched anybody.

        Just a case of racial and/or ethnic prejudice on the part of the mother, and another blackeye for the hillbillies in West Virginia. This just confirms all the racist stereotypes in the south.

        “The mother told police Tuesday she may have overreacted. She said Zayan may have been patting her daughter on the head. She called it a cultural misunderstanding. Police said there was no video evidence to back-up the original claim.

        Zayan’s attorney, Cabell County Assistant Public Defender Michelle Protzman, told MetroNews she watched Old Navy’s security video and there was absolutely no evidence that Zayan touched the girl. She said they weren’t near one another in the store. She said there’s also no video of the mother pulling out a gun.

        Protzman said she has no idea why the mother reported what she did. She said the world of social media has increased false accusations.

        “Instead of caring about facts and caring about evidence and the truth, I think the court of public opinion and social media don’t care about innocent until proven guilty and everyone jumps right on as soon as somebody makes an accusation,” Protzman said.

        She said the accusation until Zayan was reported around the world very quickly.”

    • You don’t get to pull a gun on someone for patting your kid on the head. IF that is what happened, she belongs in jail or a mental institution. Not only for the reckless endangerment but because she’s a liar who only got found out thanks to a camera.

      • With all of the sick stuff going on in the world and the news stories every single day about children being killed, raped, kidnapped, damn straight she has the right to protect her child. Overreacting maybe but better to be safe than sorry.

    • The other thing that validates her actions…. The guy DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH…. So he had nothing to say to the girl and had no business touching her. The courts should reprimand him and suggest to his employer that he return home immediately, and notify the State Dept. of the incident. The mother should be commended for her self control in not shooting him “out of hand”, despite provocation.

  3. Yeah, if a 54 year old man named ‘Mohamad’ is touching my 5 year old daughter I’m probably going to clear leather myself. Even if it wasn’t an attempted kidnapping I wouldn’t call brandishing a firearm an ‘overreaction’. Then again, why embellish your story when there’s surveillance cameras all around?

  4. What more can one expect from frightened sheep? After the media gets done whipping them up into a fear frenzy, they’ll attack anything and everything.
    It makes for a good opportunity for the authorities to grab yet another big handful of rights away from the people. Since they are so fearful, they obviously cannot be trusted. They just leave out the part where they created the whole situation in the first place.

  5. My kids are all grown-up but if you “patted” my 5 year old on the head I’d react pretty damn negatively…especially some weirdo from Egypt.

      • I guess Americans are ignorant about what Muslims do to pedophiles. They could go look up a bunch of videos of their public executions to get a better understanding of the process.

        I don’t think Americans drag pedophiles into the street, tie them up, have the neighborhood come out to film, lie the offenders on the floor, load an AK so they hear what’s coming, fire two rounds through their spine to get to their heart, then “crucify” them for everyone to see. Or there is the typical use of a dull blade to remove their heads.

        Americans rely on prisoners to do the dirty work for them in private.

        By the way, when America liberated Afghanistan and Iraq pedophilia (and drug use) increased all the way to the top of society. There are police chiefs that openly have male child servants. The Taliban would have cut those types of people’s heads off.

        • “The Taliban would have cut those types of people’s heads off.”

          Not because of the pedophelia. Because they wanted the child servants for themselves. The Taliban is typically just as gross as the police chiefs you mentioned. Generally speaking the only difference between the Taliban and the political powers in the Iraq and Afghanistan is that one of those holds political office.

        • Girls are for babies, boys are for pleasure. I got my fill of islam and muslims in Afghanistan.

          Mohammad likes a clean boy. Guess there that reference is from.

        • @RMS1911

          “While the general age of consent is now set between 16 and 18 in all U.S. states, the age of consent has widely varied across the country in the past. In 1880, the age of consent was set at 10 or 12 in most states, with the exception of Delaware where it was 7. The ages of consent were raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th century. By 1920 ages of consent generally rose to 16–18 and small adjustments to these laws occurred after 1920. The final state to raise its age of general consent was Hawaii, which changed it from 14 to 16 in 2001.”

  6. Ah, good old perfectly-justified-yet-nonetheless-definitely racism. A region/culture/ethnicity understandably known for rapeyness is the real villain, and (probably) two honest folks caught on either side of that perception is the result.

    Good over-reaction, I say. Sounds like definitley an over-reaction though. Wouldn’t be an over-reaction in a significant number of scenarios with the same parameters, though.

  7. Not enough detail here to know what to think about this. If a 54 year old named Mohammed patted my 5 year old on the head after stopping her from running out into traffic, I would be grateful. But I can see being on full alert in a shopping mall situation even if his intentions were good.

  9. “inconsistencies”?
    Mohamed Fathy Hussein Zayan, a 54 year old engineer from Egypt, who does not speak english, is in Barboursville, W. Virginia, looking for work. Maybe he is one of those Spanish speaking Egyptians trying to start a new career in the landscaping business.

    • What, so he pats her head while going “Allah Akbar! Durka-durka mohammed jihad!”

      Definitely strange/odd for a person who doesn’t speak the local language to go around touching other people’s kids (especially affectionately vs. moving the kid to the side to get by or something). I sure wouldn’t do that in Egypt.

    • I don’t think he’s looking for work, he already has it. Which means a local government or company hired outside the country for a project of theirs. Still, we have plenty of American engineers and this situation could have been avoided by forbidding the hiring of non-citizens that are not uniquely qualified.

      That being said, I’d have to see the video to make a call on this particular case. I have no sympathies for Muslims (they are existentially at war with everything non-Muslim) that doesn’t mean he did anything wrong.

      • He is uniquely qualified and there isn’t many American born engineers these days.

        A lot of higher level jobs are filled by immigrants because America can’t produce enough intelligent, educated and skilled labor. America has to import Asians to do all the higher level stuff and hire people from down south for the low level work that Americans refuse to do (including teens). America is trying to push women into STEM to fill the void. However, most Americans rather do some SJW courses (and party) over engineering or similar high level fields.

        • Its not a shortage of Americans. The H1Bs are simply cheaper and work for peanuts and its not limited to engineering. Disney pretty much fired the majority of their American workers and replaced them overnight.

        • Most H1bs are probably related to someone already residing here and allowed in as a perk or favor. There should be a stricter system for determining “real” need by companies, including documented job searches and genuine qualifications. The H1B process is probably every bit as corrupt as every other government run operation.

  10. Pulling your gun because a man harmlessly pats the head of a kid — then you make up a complete fabrication against a foreigner who can’t defend himself — is not normal or acceptable behavior.

    Anyone that is willing to murder someone because they look Muslim. is a man, can’t speak English and is trying to greet someone kindly, shouldn’t carry a gun around.

    A vice president can touch little girls (and make strange comments) inappropriately in front of many people and cameras yet his actions are said to be completely normal and acceptable for a first greeting. Right now Mr. Uncle Creepy is dodging #MeToo bullets like it’s the Matrix with the help of the same people that said Kavanaugh is a gang rapist.

    We could forgive an overreaction if the victim is willing to accept only an apology. We cannot forgive a person who makes up a story about a man trying to kidnap and rape a little child.

    A double standard isn’t really a standard at all. Moral people don’t play that game.

    • “Right now Mr. Uncle Creepy is dodging #MeToo bullets like it’s the Matrix with the help of the same people that said Kavanaugh is a gang rapist.”

      That would be hilarious if it wasn’t 100% true.

    • Agree, but unfortunataly judging by a lot of these comments common sence is not that common

    • We have no idea what that man’s intentions really were. He may be harmless, he may not be harmless. He may even be a serial killer or pedophile back in his native land. It is inappropriate for anyone to touch the child of a stranger, except in an extreme emergency or danger situation.

      • There is a big difference between what may be ‘appropriate’ and what is worth pulling a gun on someone. The fact that she seems to have LIED about what happened and only got caught thanks to cameras tells me what I need to know about whose side to take right now.

  12. A whole lot of really ugly bigotry being slung around here. Thanks for helping, you daft wonderfucks.

    • Yeah, the bigots don’t help this board at all. Wish they’d IP block the few clowns who post bigotry here.

        • “I wonder why the NRA isn’t growing much while gun ownership and CCW permits are.” Not sure from where you’ve gotten your info but NRA just went over the 5.5 million member number a few days back. That may only be in the neighborhood of 5% of all US gun owners but it’s lightyears ahead of what ever bunch of Gomers is in second place. It has amazed me how little Americans are willing to pay to protect any of their rights and liberties. Not only firearms, but anything that hasn’t been fought for recently seems to have little value to most people until it’s gone. Then the boneheads will scream and whine.

      • Yeah, damn all those people who think things that I don’t like. They certainly should be blocked. Hold up…

        big·ot /ˈbiɡət/
        noun
        a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

        In a surprise twist the accuser was the real bigot all along.

    • It’s hard to have sympathy for a group of people belonging to a religion that commands them to be at war with us. If the Christchurch shooting happened at a Church and the attackers were Muslim, they would be lauded as glorious martyrs.

      • Some of those people in that religion served with our troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, etc. and were part of the team fighting the terrorists.

        Yeah, there are a decent number of radical muslims who are either terrorists or support terrorists or their goals. That is not everyone who is a muslim. Don’t be a bigot and generalize that all muslims are radical or at war with us. You sound like a narrow minds jackass

        • Not very devout muslims. Kind of like one of my interpreters, he was on and off about getting back to praying five times a day. Islam basically commands muslims to first offer islam through peace, and if its rejected, through force. Strike fear into the non-believers, behead them, etc. Demand that Christians pay tribute to muslims, etc.

        • I used to be a very debut Catholic and I grew up in a family of very devout Catholics. I have a better view of religious devotion than most Americans because most Americans these days are not devout to anything.

          A point that everyone misses in regards to religion is that the “No True Scotchman” fallacy doesn’t apply. There are certain beliefs that, if not adhered to, would disqualify an individual from being a proper member of the religion. Can a Catholic be Catholic without believing in the infallibility of the Pope? No. Can a Christian be a Christian without believing in the Salvation of Christ? No.

          Can a Muslim be a Muslim without believing that Mohammed (who bedded a 9 year old, genocided the Jewish tribes of Arabia, took sex slaves, commanded his followers to kill non-believers wherever they’re found, etc) is the perfect man who should be emulated be all those who wish to be holy? No, any Muslim who doesn’t aspire to be a man like Mohammed isn’t a good Muslim.

        • “Yeah, there are a decent number of radical muslims who are either terrorists or support terrorists or their goals. That is not everyone who is a muslim. Don’t be a bigot and generalize that all muslims are radical or at war with us. You sound like a narrow minds jackass”

          I used to think like that, DDay. Then, I wised up. Please, watch this video. If you don’t get it after that then there’s no hope that you ever will. Islam is a special kind of danger.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmsL0p6jnI

          I highly recommend his channel, https://www.youtube.com/user/Acts17Apologetics and Apostate Prophet https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzREuchzOqiawpEpvEM0Tyg .

          Watch them while you still can.

        • The bottom line:

          If someone insists that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, they are either ignorant of the basic tenets of Islam or they are lying to you. If someone proclaims to be a Muslim and insists that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, they either have no real knowledge of Islam and are therefore not actually Muslim regardless of what they claim, or they really are Muslim and are merely carrying out the basic instructions of their religion by lying to you.

          Lies or ignorance are the only two possible answers based upon logic and fact.

          Once you know the facts, the real question becomes, “Are you going to lie for Islam?”

    • Yet all i see is you three turds swirling the bowl signaling your virtue by calling everyone racist.

      Hey moron, Islam isn’t a race. Egypt isn’t a race. Read a book idiot.

    • Even as an unrepentant islamophobe, these posts give me the WTFs. Hopefully the Walts all live in anti states where they are prevented from actually carrying a firearm. Anyone who thinks pulling a gun on someone patting a kid on the head is reasonable probably doesn’t need access to anything more dangerous than kindergarten scissors.

  14. It’s absurd they’re considering battery charges for him patting the girl on the head. Yeah it was probably unwanted, etc. but that’s not a reasonable battery case. Yeah technically it may be a violation of the law but the courts are not for minor crap like this.

  16. Works in the US but doesn’t speak English? WTF The person that hired them should be fired along with this dude.

    • He does numbers not words. He is here for a project. America is an international economic power.

  17. I’m going to assume he’s brown, therefore, presumed guilty until proven innocent.

  18. I never let people touch my children. I see them coming and they get a stern smile. That’s a tough call, but I never touch people I don’t know. Even if I do know them more than likely it’s a call of hello first, then the handshake or hug.

  19. This news report is like swiss cheese.

    Think I’ll wait until the dust settles on this one.

      • People get put on a pedo list for many reasons, like in some states a newly turned 18 year old having the same girl friend for 3 years, doing the wild thing for 2 years and her being 3 months younger. He will have to sign as a sex offender for life.

        Pedos aren’t always middle aged men who fantasize about 8 year old girls(or boys). Most want young, pretty, fully formed sex partners – lets face it, many models are not even in high school yet, so we all know that beauty sells and sexiness sells, even if the picture is of an under 18 year old.

        How many of you have grandparents, greatgrands, whatever, that got together at 13 and 14 and made a life together as late as the late 30s? My grandmother was just 13 and grandfather was 16 when they came to Ca in 1917. It was a big deal since he drove from Ok, it was written up in the society section of the L.A. Times.

        Even now, in some states, 13 year olds can get married with parents’ approval. If they can be parents…….

  20. Its an honest mistake who the hell goes around touching a little girls head and hair? Hell my own daughter would swing at me for just randomly doing it.

  21. Mohammedism is a cult of personality. Right now there is a large group of male “ropers” connected to “grooming parlors” on trial in england. Uninvited advances toword anyone in my company will be greated swiftly with clear and unmistakable nonverbal communication. The low end of our gene pool is already swarming with bad algae. Somebody get me some chlorine, stat. F-K-A.

    • Careful now, you don’t want to be called names by CTR/ShareBlue so just offer up your little children to the Mohammedans until their ‘sexual crisis’ is averted and all will be forgiven.

  22. Unless they’re about to run into oncoming traffic, don’t touch other people’s kids.

  23. The creep put his hands on the child! He held the 5 year old until the child’s mother pointed a gun at his face. I don’t care what his excuse, he is criminally responsible for his actions. If he had no intent of removing the child then he is still guilty of assault of a minor, unlawful restraint of a minor, and felony battery of a minor child by molesting and restraining the child. The best offer he should be allowed to accept is a guilty plea for assault of a minor, immediate deportation, and federal watchlisting so he is NOT allowed to return to the US.

  25. “Jividen said the woman later told investigators she may have overreacted and misinterpreted the man’s intentions.”

    Possible. I’d have to see the video to even start to pass judgement one way or another.

    One thing is for sure though. No matter what the actual facts or how this plays out it’s gonna be another “bigoted hicks from West Virginia gettin’ crazy with their guns” with the emphasis on “guns” to try to make it sound like everyone who owns a firearm is a buck-toothed sister fucker who can’t be trusted around small to medium sized live-stock never mind other human beings.

    • “Jividen said the woman later told investigators she may have overreacted and misinterpreted the man’s intentions.”

      Even if that was the case I would not have admitted it… Not yet.

    • It’s all BS, no one touched anybody. It’s just more evidence of racism and ethnic bigotry.

      And unfortunately, this reflects poorly on the people of West Virginia and the rural South, confirming the stereo types of racism. There was no contact whatsoever between the Egyptian gentleman and the child, this was all a fantasy in the mind of the mother who took it public.

  26. So he doesn’t speak English, doesn’t realize randomly touching a stranger’s kid, isn’t a good idea, refusing to disengage till a gun is pulled and “works” in a field that isn’t that hard to find qualified Americans for? I’d consider jury nullification if she DID pull the trigger.

  28. If the man had been rich and white the lady would not have thought a thing about it. The incident was clearly racism. I have seen many white men pat white kids on the head and no incident happened but this was only between exact white tribes. In other words an Italian looking American would not dare pat the kid of a German American on the head or vice versa. Nothing much has changed from 50,000 years ago when Homo Sapiens annihilated the Neanderthal people. This was because the Neanderthals parted their hair down the middle of the head and Homo Sapiens parted their hair on the side of the head. I am being facetious but not by much.

    If the woman that pulled the gun had been Black and pulled the gun on a Rich White Man she would have been immediately shot several times by the cops, kicked and stomped for good measure and then arrested, and her gun confiscated, her ccw pulled and her child ripped from her arms and put into protective custody never to be see again because the child would have been lost in the system.

    The worst thing to come out of this is that many anti-gun people will now start demanding psychological tests be given before a ccw is issued. Its been headed that way for a long time not only because of this incident but also because when there is a road rage incident and the shooter is found to have had a ccw permit then blind panic and pandemonium breaks loose in the anti-gun crowd all screaming that ccw people are more of threat than criminals are simply because of numbers, all of which, the anti-gun crowd will claim are out to relive the days of the Wild West when it was ok to shoot first and ask questions later and if minorities were shot they did not count anyway.

  29. I guess if no one’s pulled a gun on Joe Biden yet they should let this guy off for touching the 5 year old, too…

  30. And this is why most people , especially reading the post here shouldn’t have kids. nothing like racist bigotry to divide more people.

  31. “Works in the US but doesn’t speak English? WTF The person that hired them should be fired along with this dude.” A lot of Americans work in the middle east, but don’t speak a word of Arabic.

    “He held the 5 year old until the child’s mother pointed a gun at his face.” No, he did not. There is nothing at all reported that indicated anything like that.

    Did this woman know the man’s religion? His ethnicity? His country of origin? What languages he speaks?What his sexual preferences are? Not likely, yet people want to defend her for having pointed her gun at him based on those supposed reasons.

    BTW, I know a number of people from middle eastern countries who are not Muslim. Being from Egypt or many other middle eastern countries doesn’t make you Muslim, or a child-molester, or anything else.

  32. Devout Muslims rarely have the blood lust many of you speak of about Muslims. The Muslims that are doing these things are “cultural” Muslims, who listen to hate filled speeches and then think it is ok to do these things. The imams that make these speeches can be likened to the Christian White Power militia leaders that did the same thing. Religion has been used to stir up hatred for many thousand years. While pleasure boys are part of some cultures, in this century, it is not all Muslim nation, by any means, just as genital mutilation is not in all Muslim nations(was done before Islam was started).
    In Ca, most Muslims are professionals, they are Western in most of their views. I would not know about the Somalis in Michigan, but my gut tells me these people are not devout and only want to listen to hate filled rhetoric to make them feel oppressed.

  33. She should serve as much time in the clink as he would have if that video didn’t put lie to her claims.

  35. Well, we haven’t heard from any women yet as far as I can tell. I’d like to hear what they have to say as well as see the video. There just isn’t any substance to this article. He may have bumped into the girl or she into him and not speaking English he patted her on the head in way of apology. Meanwhile mom caught this out of the corner of her eye and when she called police actually thought that’s what happened. Things happen fast! After placing the call she may have spoken to the girl and realized her error or realized it only after she was told he didn’t speak English. In another scenario mom might have thought he was sizing her up to see what he could get away with and, not knowing he didn’t speak English, pulled the gun only when he didn’t immediately stop when told to. Then panicked and called 911 when she thought he might run off and complain to police that she brandished a gun at him for no good reason and “embellished” it a bit in an attempt to shield herself from blame. Remember she didn’t know he didn’t speak English. Either way it’s important to know the facts before condemning anyone. As I said, things happen fast. His color may not have had anything to do with it. Certainly his religion and name didn’t, she could not possibly have known.

    Personally, I’m leaning towards a lack of communication as the most likely reason and, he’s not a pedophile, she’s not an irresponsible gun owner, and the police should make the video public with the faces blacked out so folks will know. If they don’t, I’d like to know the political affiliations of those making the decision not to release it so I can judge for myself their motivations and who is actually at fault here if there is any fault. Filing charges against one, the other, or both will tell us nothing.

  37. Poor Mohammed should inform the he identifies as a very affectionate old white man….. smh who does he think he is rapey uncle shotgun Joe??

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