Lawrence O'Donnell (courtesy twitter.com)

“2,182 miles per hour. That’s how fast the bullets were moving when they came out of that AR-15 at Marjory Stoneman-Douglas High School last week,” MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell pronounced. “2,182 miles per hour. 3,200 feet per second. That’s what those kids were trying to outrun. That’s three times the speed of a bullet leaving a 9mm handgun.” Not entirely wrong but that doesn’t mean . . .

a 9mm bullet is slow (except in slo-mo). Or that a 9mm bullet is three times less deadly than a .223 fired from an AR-15. As any Person of the Gun will tell you, any bullet’s lethality depends on shot placement.

Mind you, it is true that a .223 round creates more severe wounds than a 9mm — all things being equal. But again, it is not true that bullet speed is the key factor in a gunfight.

Which is why MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell’s Tweet is a joke. Well, kinda . . .

A defender with a handgun going up against a school shooter with a semi-automatic rifle is at a large disadvantage — due to the rifle’s superior ergonomics and ammunition capacity. (Lesson learned at the SIG SAUER Active Shooter Instructor Course.)  Which is why police officers responding to an active shooter do so with . . . wait for it . . . AR-15s.

That said, the underlying dynamics of the gunfight can give an unidentified, handgun-armed defender a key advantage: surprise. It’s the bullet you don’t see that kills you, regardless of what gun fired it. Put another way, speed, surprise and violence of action is an excellent recipe for winning any violent confrontation.

Bottom line: in the best of all possible worlds, if we wanted the most effective defense against a school shooter when the shooting starts, teachers should have quick access to a rifle, rather than a concealed handgun.

That’s not a very practical idea, and the mainstream media already has its hair on fire at the idea of teachers carrying concealed. So handguns it is! Or should be.

Here’s one thing it shouldn’t be: leaving schools undefended. Or, as police with rifles eventually show up, temporarily undefended.

Remembering that Nikolas Cuz killed 17 people in less than six minutes, some of whom died as police officers waited outside his killing field, either armed with or waiting for rifles.

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105 COMMENTS

  1. It’s like they’re rubbing their stupidity in our faces.
    Shoulder things that go up, clipazines, ghost guns, heat seeking incendiaries, teflon armor piercing ammo now fps. Next up energy on impact.

    • Great.
      So he Googled “How fast does a bullet move” because he was inspired to use that as a new angle on why being equipped to defend one’s self is a bad idea.
      I swear, if these bigots weren’t using their ignorance to try to restrict our civil rights it would be hilarious to watch…
      🤠

      • I think he just watch the Matrix, the the Flash the X-men Days of future past movies to many times.
        Everyone knows if they had been shooting AR15s even Quicksilver would have been shot.
        /SARC

        • What about making bullets curve by flicking your wrist real fast as you shoot? Can’t do that with a assault military grade machine army gun. If you really want to mess with their pea-brains explain that the bullet loses energy the farther it travels.

      • It is indeed hilarious to watch, but painful to argue against when you’re arguing with one of them.

        They seem be exquisitely satisfied to know as little as possible about guns, but also, to be able to ram crap down our throats in the way of restrictions.

        On occasion, I’ve offered to partner with them in discussions to come to mutually agreeable and informed policies and programs and have been turned down, ignored and ridiculed.

        Although I once and not so long ago believed that the nation could come to mutual understandings about guns and their place in America, come up with rational and mutually acceptable policies and programs…

        …I now know that they’re as nonsensical as any zealot for any reason might be AND I’M COMMITTED TO NOW FIGHTING AS HARD AS I MUST TO PREVENT BEING DENIED MY RIGHTS AS I BELIEVE THEY’RE JUST OUT TO CASTRATE THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

        Believe me, I tried. Recent events have made me believe I was a damned fool for trying.

        • I’m glad you have realized it. Welcome!

          “Believe me, I tried. Recent events have made me believe I was a damned fool for trying.”

          Many of us tried in earnest only to come to the same conclusion. Undoubtedly, we felt like fools for trying so long. But, we weren’t fools. We had to try every bit of reason first. It was the moral thing to do. Now we are awake.

          I no longer have “conversations” with thieves. It profits me not.

    • Next we will have to outlaw assault style gunpowder because it propels bullets at the same speed as military style bullets. What was the saying that said something like keep quiet and have people wondering if you are ignorant but opening your mouth and removing all doubt. It fits here.

  2. “It’s the bullet you don’t see that kills you” or as my Marine friend says, its the bullet you don’t “hear” that kills ya.

    • So if you’re threatened with a gun, look at it,and since you’ll see(!) the bullet, it can’t kill you.
      Got it.
      Now I know why people being executed by gunfire were made to wear blindfolds. I always wondered about that.

  3. Yet, low low low informed brain stems will eat this poo. Thats how the lefty progressive propaganda machine works. Sadly, IT DOES WORK. Goebbels would be proud.

  4. A 5.56 is ~3000 FPS, a 9mm is ~1200 FPS but Lawrence O’Donnell prefers your only option to be running away at ~22 FPS or cowering behind a desk at ~0 FPS…

    • Exactly. I don’t understand how these idiots can think low odds are better than no odds.

      • Easy. It’s O’Donnell. Numbers only mean what he wants them to mean, all other logic and probability is just noise.

        That, and…no odds equals weeks, maybe even a couple of months of more than 6 people watching MSNBC. Low odds brings the possibility of a hero stopping an attack, and that’s only good for one 24 cycle, may be 2.

        I hate being that cynical, but history isn’t as ignorant as its actors.

        • Like all of the MSM, they care not for facts or evidence, or even sanity. Their only concern is to please their master’s by repeating whatever lies they are told to tell. Which is whatever the Bankster’s who own the media think that the target sheep can be made to believe.
          It is our job to wise the sheeple up, so that they stop believing the idiocy spewed by the O’donnell’s of the world. Or whatever other talking head happens to be chosen to be the idiot of the day.

      • They prefer “no odds” because they cannot brainwash the snowflake masses without a solid set of helpless victims.

    • This comment. So very much this comment. See, libidiots, we actualky understand the implications of numbers.

    • Be it a bullet a falling tree a rolling boulder we have seen it all from our early days of watching cartoons. The roadrunner just steps to the side and the coyote tries to out run it. And how did that always turn out?

  5. Does this mean it’s time to bring back the .475 Wildey Mag? (1850 fps/1900 ft.-lbs. with 250-grain)

    That would halve the the speed advantage of the AR, which would give you a nanosecond or two at the 7 yard range. Very important stuff for the media to speculate on.

    • Nope, it means every teacher should be armed with the Wilson Combat .458 Ham’r. 300 grains at 2,300fps, in an AR platform.
      #forthechildren
      #ifitsavesjustonelife

        • Ah, very good then. Also being a tad more neoteric with a .006″ larger diameter projectile can’t hurt. Truthfully, either one would be overkill for most uses outside of hunting large/dangerous game(excluding more esoteric purposes involving specialty projectiles).

        • Why Israeli carry, carried by Israeli supermodels in bikinis!!! School security and no more need of truant officers!!!

        • Like many corporate security offices do. In a safe with hardwired keypad access that can be locked down by a central office and notifies that office and other stations when opened.
          This is not a new problem. It’s one that many critical infrastructure and large corporate sites have already solved.

        • “How would you propose storing a rifle for a teacher? What would be the protocol? Seriously.”

          Seriously Robert, just make it their option and they’ll work it out. Let them discretely carry / secure whatever they want, and they will work it out.

          I think the biggest push back on teachers’ carrying is that they’re afraid there’s too many unknown F’d up kids that might look at the teachers like a weapons ‘supply-chain’, but that is just a problem with the kids.

        • Mr. Farago,

          I have stated before how to securely store a long gun in a classroom.

          Anchor a simple and STRONG steel box to the wall of the teacher’s classroom. The box requires a key to open. (All staff would have a key.) And the box would have a mechanical interlock that must be actuated to open in addition to having the key. The mechanical interlock interface would be located something like 10 feet away from the steel box so that no one could open the box by themselves with a key. Rather, opening the steel box would require a key AND the assistance of another person — which would most always be a student.

          This steel locked box would be super cheap to manufacture. It would be supremely reliable (mechanical only with super simple mechanics). It would be as secure as the wall to which the installers anchor it. And it would provide access as fast as a teacher could insert their key and turn it — assuming that a student could spring up and depress the mechanical interlock faster than a teacher can retrieve a key, insert it, and turn it which I believe is a given.

        • Teachers should have desks deep enough for the top side drawer to accommodate an SBR or PDW. Standard equipment for all school rooms, like a dictionary. With a proper lock it could be as secure as a gun safe and as easy to access as the pens and pencils.
          If this was enacted for every school in the land, even if some teachers would choose to never open that particular drawer, it would sure put quite a damper on any potential spree killer’s plans. Maybe not right away, but after the first few face PDWs and SBRs in every room they come to, I predict the field of spree killers will narrow down quickly, as the potential ones out there witness the rapidity with which their brothers reach room temperature. It would also make new record numbers of victims impossible to achieve, as their ‘glory days’ of wowing down helpless victims would be over. I predict that without willing victims the days of dozens at a time will be over. Why would a suicidal copycat want to be shown up for only killing a few before being perforated, when he could just jump quietly off the nearest bridge?

        • slung over shoulder, AR15 pistols with brace or not. Firearm stays with teacher all the time. ALL THE TIME.
          in condition:
          mag inserted with the hornady rapid rack device in place
          can be brought into play in a heartbeat, and the device ensures there is no storage of the rifle with rounds inadvertantly chambered. Presence of device provides obvious visible empty chamber status of the rifle

          no mag with hornady rapid rack device in place
          Same as above but some people will feel better about the lack of live rounds in the rifle when carried. loaded mag would be on person or in some sort of lock box in the room.

        • Anchor a simple and STRONG steel box to the wall of the teacher’s classroom. The box requires a key to open. (All staff would have a key.) And the box would have a mechanical interlock that must be actuated to open in addition to having the key. The mechanical interlock interface would be located something like 10 feet away from the steel box so that no one could open the box by themselves with a key. Rather, opening the steel box would require a key AND the assistance of another person — which would most always be a student.
          And everyone would be dead.
          If you cannot trust the teacher, then do not issue said person a gun.

      • Based on the “speed” logic, we need a semi auto platform that can deliver .220 swift at 4000 FPS, right?

  6. Tell the folks in Chicago how puny handgun rounds are…800murdered in 2016 the VAST percentage handguns. The RETARDED-it burns😩😖😧!!!

    • Now stop the insults against the retards! I know quite a few, and none of the tards I know would believe this BS. They haven’t the slightest idea what velocity or feet per second even means, but even they know that handguns can kill you quickly.
      Only the mind conditioned sheeple are foolish enough for BS like this. Retards know better.

  8. You don’t actually expect the MSM to understand ballistics and advanced tactical pistol techniques, do you?

    Ballistics is damn near rocket science to them and hoplophobes would never to expose themselves to any pistol training.

    Of course, it’s bad journalism to make statements, peddled as fact, about a subject that you know nothing about.

    We need background checks and licenses for journalists! /sarc

  9. Did no one tell him to take down that video? According to him I can get off only 15 rounds from my handgun on 60 seconds. I think he would have a heart-attack at an IDPA match. On second thought, can’t do that. If I ran my 625 he would want all guns banned.

  10. One thing that has always been a constant in the progressive media, and progressive anti-gun advocates in general, is there persistent ignorance when it comes to guns. They tend to come from a segment of the population, many of whom have never see a gun up close, don’t know anyone who hunts, and have certainly never fired a gun. They are also mechanically incompetent, lacking even basic take-it-apart-and-fix-it skills.

    My experience with these folks is sort of like talking to space aliens, so strange are their view on how the world works. They are very different from us. The Progressive Insurance ad. where the kid turns to his friend, holds up a pry-bar, and says to his friend— “Is this a lug wrench?”—is a perfect example of who these people are.

  12. If necessary I fully expect to see a “dead hero” with a gun thats been shot empty, still in their hand among still living children in a school shooting.

    I don’t expect to see a “live coward” who never entered the fight.

    The Left is full of cowards in their ranks. Most anti gun civil rights people who are against guns in schools are childless.
    Or they send their kids to private lilly white schools, some with armed guards. These schools have far fewer children with serious emotional issues.

    The liberal self hating Jewish school that was shot up in California back in the 1980s didn’t have armed guards posted.
    The mentally ill shooter drove past three conservative Jewish schools who did have armed guards posted.

    Just as the movie theater shooter in Colorado drove to a posted gun free zone theater. The other theaters were not posted.

  13. Nobody tell this myopic mental midget about .223 WSSM, .220 Swift, .22-250 or .204 Ruger. Not to mention the dread .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer.

  14. What seems to be ignored is the human dynamic involved. These shooters are cowards. They are not Navy Seals. They are kids. A determined and trained adult has a major advantage. It seems to me that most of these kids stop shooting others as soon as they face armed resistance.

    • This Is a great point about lack of training with most active shooters (Dallas police BLM member excluded). In the videos of the Paris terrorist attacks, you can see the the terrorists shooting AK’s from the hip, often with the underfolded stocks still folded. Not using the sights, having malfunctions, fumbling re-loads etc. in every case, the numbers of lives lost is predicated on how long it takes a good guy with a gun to arrive, not on the deadliness of the mass shooters clipazine. These guys are most often not well trained, and they are cowards who will flee or off themselves when met with armed resistance. Ironically one of the Paris attackers was killed when he entered a cafe and was shot by Colombian drug dealers carrying illegally.

  15. One thing I just realized, linked to this desire to ban all semi-auto long guns, is that although technically more deadly on a per bullet metric, one can easily dual wield pistols, shooting twice as many bullets per unit time.

    This really is a critical point to get out there. If they banned long guns, the number of people shot could quite easily double, in the next iteration of a mass shooting. Hell, we already have the data point, i.e. Virginia Tech, where two pistols killed over 32 students (and one of those was a .22 LR).

    Maybe we are lucky AR-15s are the tool of choice of these psychopaths?

    • One could potentially dual wield ARs/AKs etc. Although, this would likely be ineffective. As mentioned, Seung Hui Cho utilized two pistols in the VT shooting. To what extent he “dual wielded” though, is arguable. There however, is no doubt that an extra gun can lead to enhanced lethality.

      Yes, it is lucky that these POS almost entirely always rely upon firearms during such attacks. Fortunately the little bastards don’t strive to become more sophisticated and utilize bombs. Multiple explosive devices, either setup and cascaded(timer wise) or remotely detonated, in confined spaces that are crowded cause mass casualties in an instant.

      Luckily for the victims, Columbine didn’t go as planned. Eric Harris(Dylan had little to do with much of anything planwise as he was likely too drunk off his ass on vodka and angry/depressed to give a damn), while not stupid, was far too inept/lazy to thoroughly test the reliability of his larger propane bombs.

  16. Why do libs think your going to have a full frontal assault with an active shooter? If All I have is a pistol against a rifle I’m not going to engage the shooter from the front.
    I’m going to flank the SOB wait for him to walk by then put a .45 slug in his ear hole.
    Or shoot him in the back or in the back of the head at the base of the skull.
    I fight to Win, F**k the fancy stuff

    • They have watched too many spaghetti westerns.

      They think you and the shooter should do the 10 paces thing at high noon.

      • Harmonica(Charles Bronson) was damn deadly with a SAA in Once Upon A Time In The West. In the opening sequence he killed three men in less than a second!!!

  18. Somebody please tell the U.S. Army that the 580 million dollar contract for m17 handguns won’t matter because the bullets won’t travel fast enough to be combat effective.

    • Yes, and while they’re at it: Please inform the 650+ murder victims in Chicago that they aren’t really dead, as their murderers only shot them with antiquated handguns.

  19. This is really stupid…. you’re not trying to shoot .223 bullets out of the air with 9mm bullets, so the speed of the bullet isn’t even a concern or factor here. It’s the surprise factor (as in “surprise, motherf***er, I’ve got a gun too!”) or coming at the shooter from a direction he’s distracted from that would provide the advantage. The bullet doesn’t have to be going that fast or be that big to get a few rounds into a shooter. Heck, I’d take a .22 over nothing… if that meant I could at least wound the asshole long enough to get others or myself to safety. Bet if you happened to plink an eyeball out with a .22, a shooter would likely be distracted from his mission fairly quickly.

    What a moronic statement.

    • I agree. I’d take my EDC, but if I had my 10/22 in the car I’d take that too. Its scope is dialed in perfectly at 50 yards and a head shot would end all.

    • “you’re not trying to shoot .223 bullets out of the air with 9mm bullets”

      That is an option, though. You just have to accurately estimate the distance between you and the shooter, the distance between you and the next target, run Pythagorean’s for the diagonal, determine the next shot based on this “bullet spraying” rate, calculate time from attacker’s muzzle to victim’s body at 3200 fps average velocity, calculate your time from muzzle to attacker’s bullet’s terminal location at just under 1450 fps average (.357 sig), calculate lock time, subtract, add to time since last shot from attacker, and pull trigger at that moment. Repeat indefinitely. Simple. If you tried to shoot the attacker directly, he would simply spray thousands of bullets by time your bullet gets all the way to his forehead.

  20. The people of the gun are partly responsible for this meme. We constantly talk about how ineffective handgun rounds are. But if the purpose of a defensive firearm is to get the bad guy to stop or at least render him ineffective as rapidly as possible then we really should not care what the relative lethality is.

    I have a suggestion for Mr. O’Donnell. Let me shoot him with a 22 in a non vital area and then see if would want to persist in what he is doing. Getting shot hurts. Most people quit what they ate doing when they get shot.

  21. Probably shouldn’t mention Underwood ammo. There are loads in common pistol calibers that get into the lower end of rifle velocities. Anywhere from 1500-2000 fps. A teacher or anyone else will be well-armed with them.

  24. Anti gun/Anti Constitutionalist’s should at the very least check facts/stats before they utter a word they know nothing about and prove themselves a fool/or tool.

  26. You have got to start linking to the original so we can comment there. Here we are preaching to the choir and no one but us sees what we are saying. I prefer to comment here and on the original source. That way we can outnumber the gun-grabbers.

  27. MDSBLISMFG
    Moms Demand Sensible Bionic Leg Implants and Slow Motion Field Generators

    Really though: “3,200 feet per second. That’s what those kids were trying to outrun.”
    Is he serious? He does understand the general concept of a firearm and that running away from a bullet headed towards you is complete silliness, right?

    Further, does he realize that a 9mm bullet and a 5.56mm bullet are not actually “racing”? Life is not a video game, such as Atari’s Asteroids. If this guy is joking, as it sounds like he is, it’s a pretty insensitive joke.

  28. So… if I’m holding one of my AR’s I can dodge handgun bullets? That’s freakin’ awesome! Thanks Lawrence!

  30. 2,182 mph certainly is impressive. Three times the velocity of a 9mm round, huh, and therefore ineffective, or at least grossly disadvantaged? Well.

    What about bullets travelling just 50 to 75 mph or so? The AR’s round travels some 44 to 29 times faster than these oh so slothful bullets. And yet, the tortoise beats the hare in many of these cases? How can it be? What are these slow motion super bullets? Nothing special, really, they’re just the cartridges sitting quietly in the chambers and magazines of officers’ sidearms as they race to the scene of the spree shooting….with sirens blaring.

    You see, many of these spree shooters kill themselves as soon as they hear the police arriving. Many school shootings, including some of the most infamous, endes without a final blaze of glory shootout with police. Rather, they end with a whimper in some stairwell, empty classroom, or lonesome corner of the library.

    These cowards are unwilling to risk feeling even a fraction of the pain they inflict on others. That’s why they go the one-and-done route so often when confronted by armed resistance. This is about psychology, not engineering. It’s about a sick and rotting psyche’s last gasps, not the relative ballistics of the weaponry.

    The thrill is over when the kills don’t come easy. Any armed resistance, even .22lr out of a single shot, bolt action, Crickett rifle could do the trick! Not that that would be my first choice. Allow the teachers to arm themselves. They’ll do fine.

    • Oh very well put sir, and such poetic and copacetic notions. This one was slightly uninterested at first when reading what appeared to be clichéd rhetoric, but soon that sense of mundanity turned to intrigue and then nirvana. Esoteric Inanity gives his stamp of suspense and approval.

  31. He was probably thinking about the .9mm handguns, those would be considerably under-performing.

    What about a Sub2k in a locked cabinet?
    (In case of murderous, deranged psychopath, break glass! [alarm will sound])

  32. Is he arguing we should lower the age to purchase handguns given they are so much safer to be shot at with?

  34. View this issue the same as the nuclear arms buildup during the “Cold War”

    Neither superpower was willing to hit the “First Strike” button because each knew they’d be met with immediate retaliation.

    “Gun Free Zone” signs need to be replaced with signs stating: “Armed Personnel on Premises”.

    Why in the world, should we be advertising “Target Rich” ,,, Undefended venues?

  37. Just because someone is on TV doesn’t mean that they know what they’re talking about.

    In fact, in today’s world it’s pretty safe to assume that they probably don’t.

  38. Seems like Loopy Larry just made the cast that if you want to defend yourself, better get an AR-pattern gun.

    It’s almost like they don’t want citizens to have AR-pattern defensive fire arms *because* they are effective.

  41. Yes, everyone knows that an active shooter can easily dodge bullets traveling at only a paltry 700 MPH. As Bugs Bunny was fond of observing: what a maroon.

  43. I’ll bet he failed both math and philosophy.
    Billy got on a train at 3pm that averaged 50mph.
    Johnny got on a train at 4pm that averaged 75mph.
    If Billy was 300 miles from his destination, what is Johnny’s travel distance if they both arrived at the same time?

    The philosopher wouldn’t suggest that Billy shouldn’t take a train at all because his was slower.

  44. The Gun Free School Zone law passed in 1980 was declared to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in the LOPEZ case. Congress came back and included some propaganda to justify and state a claim as to why they had the power to pass such a law.
    Part of that was claims that kids studies would be harmed if they saw guns. If anybody is interested they can read the preamble in Title 18 paragraph 922 (q).
    So despite arming teachers having been allowed for decades guns have been “not allowed” because of the propaganda reason.
    O`Donnell may be an idiot since bullet velocity has little to do with combat effectiveness at 10 yards. School shootings don’t happen at 600- 1,000 yards where velocity matters.
    But why not issue a noise suppressed M4 carbine to each teacher because they are easier to use than a handgun? Of yeah, they have been demonizing guns and the NRA. They ignore the facts that the NRA has been teaching cops, soldiers, Scouts, and Olympic competitors for over 100 years about gun safety and lawful use.

  45. I will no longer even attempt to debate the gun issues with the gun control crowd. I will going forward do as mountain gorilla has suggested on his site’s blog post. I will just say NO…… no negotiable and not talking to you over it. They can make their choice to not have a gun, to have chocolate bullets, etc. I will make my choice.

    So just simply say NO……

    • “I will just say NO…… no negotiable and not talking to you over it.”

      Welcome to sanity. I won’t negotiate, aka have a “conversation,” with thieves. The right is mine. The answer is simply “no.”

      I wish the all POTG would come to this realization… and soon.

  46. Completely wrong and stupid remarks every time the left opens it’s mouth about guns or gun laws. It’s like instructions to assemble a Chinese product. I always ask “why didn’t they hire an English speaking person to check the instructions for accuracy and proper sentence structure”.
    Why don’t American gun idiots do the same thing?

  47. Sensationalistic A$$hole!!! It doesn’t matter if it is rifle or a handgun. You can’t out run a bullet and he knows that. This was all about sensationalism for his audience of morons who wouldn’t know which end of the gun a bullet exits from!!

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