Hollywood, SC crime scene (courtesy bradenton.com)

“A sheriff’s deputy responding to a home invasion shot the homeowner in the neck Thursday because he refused to drop his gun,” bradenton.com reports. “Two deputies from the Charleston [SC] County Sheriff’s Office encountered the man at the rear of his mobile home in Hollywood, South Carolina, after two other men fled on bicycles, Sheriff’s Maj. Eric Watson said in a news release. The man was either leaving or standing at the back door of the house and was armed, Watson said. One of the two deputies shot him after he refused to drop his gun, he said.” The solution members of our Armed Intelligentsia are sure to suggest: drop the gun when cops tell you to. It’s not that simple. Here’s an AP update . . .

“I saw officers and I should have put the gun down,” Bryant Heyward told a Charleston County Sheriff’s investigator during an interview in the ambulance following the Thursday incident.

“I didn’t. They thought I was the crook and shot,” Heyward, 26, said. The recorded interview was played Friday for local community leaders and news reporters.

Anyone who’s been in a life-or-death adrenalin-fueled emergency will tell you that your normal sensory processing goes bye-bye. Tunnel vision? Oh yeah. Time distortion? Plenty? In fact, an armed self-defender’s brain is addled with an information influx that overwhelms normal methods of perception. That includes auditory input. DROP YOUR WEAPON! What? Huh? If you have a gun in your hand and turn towards the cops . . . oh dear.

It’s actually worse than that. The responding cops’ adrenalin system is at full throttle, too. They may not hear you. And who’s to say the arriving police will even bother to shout out a warning? And do you really want to drop/holster your gun before they arrive, before the crime scene is secure? Not to point too fine a point on it, you may be in more danger when the cops arrive than you were before the so-called first responders responded.

And the answer is . . .

No sé. You should freeze when the cops arrive and follow their instructions. But there’s no guarantee you will. The police should refrain from shooting anybody who doesn’t need shooting. As the example above illustrates, there’s no guarantee they will. Which is why I’m more worried about getting shot by the cops than I’m worried about getting shot by the bad guy.

Seriously. If the bad guy shoots me, the bad guy shoots me. Unless I’ve been ambushed, I will may have had a chance to put up a fight before the lead infusion (or other type of physical insult). Call me a fatalist but what happens after that point happens. Not to coin a phrase, it is what it is. But homicide by cop? That rankles. I survived an attack and the good guys kill me? That sucks.

I guess there’s one thing an armed self-defender can do to protect him or herself from well-meaning police: force-on-force training. If you can minimize the distortion effects of an adrenaline dump through practice (a.k.a.,”stress inoculation”) you have a better chance of thinking clearly (i.e., not doing something stupid) during a defensive gun use. And after. But basically, it’s a crap shoot. So to speak. [h/t Ralph]

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138 COMMENTS

  1. Why do I think it went something like “DROP THE GUN! (1 millisecond later) BLAM!

    • Here we go again, the usual suspects, cop bashing. I was not there and nether were all of you. I have no idea what took place, yet like the experts you all are, you know all of the facts and have all of the right answers. Thank God you are not ASSuming anything. Thank God for your existence. We can all rest easy knowing that you are the smartest humans to have ever existed. With so much intelligence and such large brains, how do you fit all of it in the limited space of your craniums? It must be very painful having so much packed into such a tiny space.

      • I was thinking that you, being that superior, will attack their argument instead of them personally. I know, the irony is not lost on me.

      • @ Gregory
        It is painful. What was equally painful was reading your response.

      • You must use a guide dog to get around, because there is no way you can walk about safely when you have your head that far up your ass.

      • Where’s the body cam at? Let me guess….too expensive to keep the MRAP running to go buy the cameras.

      • You’d probably find he was shot in the back side or at least very peripherally in the neck. Because their other rule before shoot first and then ask questions. Is sneak up from behind so they can yell something and when they start turning to see what’s up, BLAM. Cause everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

      • Gregogy, the question that you should be asking instead, is why the people are so easily assuming that the officers did that (and why they didn’t make such assumptions, say, 20 years ago). And note that you aren’t even talking to liberals here, but conservatives, who have historically been very supportive of “tough on crime” rhetoric and the associated propensity to give police officers a lot of leeway.

      • Considering the error rate on cops and shootings, not just recently but historically, do you blame them?

        when you even the numbers and adjust for just about everything, cops dont fair so great in the “Hitting a bad guy” camp.

      • Maybe if you call 911 to report a break-in you shouldn’t pursue the burglars with a gun. If you shoot a fleeing burglar it’s a good chance you wind up in jail.
        As I stated in an earlier post after calling 911 and there is no longer any threat, as in this case, holster your firearm and inform arriving police that you are armed. This with your hands in the air.
        A little common sense. Perhaps firearm training should include what you should do after using your firearm in a defensive situation prior to LEO arriving.

      • And this, Gregory, is why people immediately assume the cops did wrong. Not just statistics but we know their training and mindset are inadequate for dealing with armed citizens.

  2. The problem I think is, that in many cases cops bring themselves deliberatly in exposed positions and by that limit their own possibilities of acting down to “Shoot or get shot”..

    If I am behind solid cover I will feel more safe and have the possibility to give the other person the room to do a mistake.

    If I am ducked behind cover I can have someone turning in my direction.

    If I am standing in plain view, 10 feet next to that person, well then it is a gamble.

    • I am not saying, they do this so they can shoot people.
      Imho most of the cops would be too scared for their life for that.

      I think it’s flaw in training and their modus operandi.

      • Bingo. Look at the Tamir Rice shooting. If you really think there is a person holding a gun with bad intent, why jump out of the car (i.e. concealment) like that? The only way that would have made sense is if they were moving to get behind the wheels or the engine (cover). This is not intended to be bashing, although I am sure the mental giant Gregory will take it that way, just to say that their training sucks.

  3. Another reason we don’t need cops. Don’t call the cops until you’ve gotten the situation under control.

    • The cops will make things more complicated and it will be harder to defend yourself if the thugs do not sky out when the cop car pulls in the drive way. It is best to have at least the situation where you can disengage with your weapon when the cops arrive. I can see a home owner who has the thug covered with a weapon being mistaken for the bad guy and shot by the cops. I think this actually happened about a month back or so.

    • As a police officer, that’s actually pretty close to what I do. I hear a weird noise and typically let the dogs check it out. Or I check it out with the dogs. I carry concealed out and about and at home, so I re-holster as soon as the threat(s) is (are) resolved. I have an alarm system, and weapons and tasers stashed around the house, and spare body armor by my nightstand. Plus, I have spare uniforms in the closet so I could put on a police uniform top in about 20 seconds.

      Unfortunately, if you’ve just shot someone or have your gun out when police arrive, the potential for all sorts of bad things to happen is dangerously high. TTAG has mentioned shortcomings in police training frequently.

      I still see very little scenarios in my current training where an LEO is required to differentiate between the BG and a CCW holder / armed good guy. That deficiency plays out in real world encounters. Plus, this is government were talking about, so efficiency and flexibility aren’t exactly frequent flyers.

    • Before calling the police, you should ask yourself if including ignorant, aggressive, and heavily armed people IMPROVING the situation? This answer is not always “yes.” Sometimes it is “later” or “never.”

      • And many times, especially if shot(s) fired, it’s not YOU who calls the cops.

  4. The guy( the BLACK man) said “I should have dropped it”…you can 2nd guess for eternity…I don’t see THIS as racism-maybe trigger happy PO-leece.

    • I honestly think that cops have the mind set to blast anyone in civilian clothes having a gun, including Santa Claus. Yeah, I know the cops are supposed to be civilians, but they are now part of the high speed low drag military operator group.

    • FWW, I think that the racism angle in police shootings is way, way overplayed. It’s not white vs, black. It’s blue vs. everybody.

      • It’s blue vs. everybody.

        As usual, Ralph distills an issue to its purest form.

        Training (or lack thereof,) poorly laid out mission statements, poor hiring standards, and lack of accountability all add up to a potentially lethal set of circumstances for even the most “harmless” of encounters for the average citizen. Police militarization isn’t a problem that just involves hardware, it’s a mindset that has been bred over generations. Good cops acting appropriately should be supported by the community, but NOT unconditionally.

        Unconditional support for the people who “put their life on the line” has led to to what is getting dangerously close to a class war.

        • Don’t forget the old “They just want to make it home alive shctick.” Well, so does every damn body else! They also want to stay alive when they actually make it home.

  6. In my near confrontation with the armed drug thugs on my porch at night;I had them covered with my 870 inside the house. The thugs decided to leave for another house. My wife had called the cops whom arrived a half an hour later and could not find the thugs, even though one was in the car next to where the cops drove by. Finally, the cops wanted to meet us out on the street in front of our house, which we did. The driver thug fled the car and the cops pulled up after going around the block. I put the 870 down in the house as I figured the cops would think I was the bad guy; and went out to meet the cops. We went over what we had seen with the cops and I did not even mention I had the 870 trained on the thugs. If you think that you are clear of the thugs after an altercation, I would recommend putting the gun down or placing it in a location away from you so that they do not shoot you based upon the no hesitation reflexes that they learned at the SS indoctrination base.

  7. “so-called first responders.” Really, Farago? Your post is a very good one but you just can’t help yourself can you? Any opportunity to shit on cops, and I mean any, and you do it. There is no other way that an experienced reader of your writing can take your so-called reference but as a pejorative shot at the cops. How about the cop in Garland who stone cold smoked thise two jihadis? Is he a “so-called first responder”? Oh wait, he’s a cop in Texas, so he’s ok right?

    • If anyone was “shit on” here, it was the poor homeowner who was shot by a scared cop.

      I’ll send you some cop boots to lick. I’m sure you’ll find ’em tasty.

    • “Any opportunity to shit on cops, and I mean any, and you do it.” Really, David? Any opportunity for you to jump to the conclusion that agrees with your preconception of RF’s intentions, and you do it. You see, I read that completely differently, because I don’t have an axe to grind. I read it that in this case (and many others just like it), the homeowner is the first responder. Hence the “so-called.” Police get the credit for being first responders, and often they are, but in situations like this one, they’re very second.

    • For me the difference between cop, landlord, and homeowner is just clothes, location, and time of day.

    • Remember, it’s these same “first responders” who will come for your guns when they get the order from their masters.

    • Umm, David. It’s Robert’s site. TTAG belongs to him and if he want’s to drop feces bombs on cops on his own site, he damn well can. Only he doesn’t. Do you think the LEO’s who post here would come around if he did? Or, is it that you think they’re just victims of false-consciousness and you have all the truth? If you find the discourse here distasteful go away. You won’t be missed.

      • It sure is his site. He can and does drop bombs on cops. He can do what he wants, and I will call this cop hate every time I see it. I would certainly love to see him write a post on what caused his particular brand of cop hate. Most of his crticism of cops is valid, specifically militarization of cops, no knock warrant abuse and more. His feelings towards cops goes beyond his legit criticism. It is cop hate. A lot of his cop hate is without context. BTW, I’m far from the first LEO who has called RF on his cop hate here in these comments. I still read this site for its gun related content, not the cop haters club that pops up far to often.

        • According to his own explanation when he was 16 and on a date RF was spit on by a cop.

        • You still haven’t addressed your confirmation bias. Everyone else who commented on the “first responder” issue gets it, why don’t you?

        • I’ll give you the same advice: instead of ranting about how you’re being unfairly picked on, chill and ponder for a moment why so many people here, on a website that leans strongly conservative – historically the power base of LEO supportiveness! – are so ready to assume that cops are at fault in so many cases.

    • So you truly believe cops are first responders? Maybe paid responders yes. But first responders No. The homeowner is the first responder. The cop here in Texas that shot those two Assholes was the first responder because he was the first person they shot at lol.

    • @davidk-“so-called first responders.” Really, Farago?” That is not cop hate but the truth as cops are not true first responders like Firemen and EMT’s are. Firemen and EMTs run into dangerous situations to try and help people and are not motivated by officer safety to shoot those they are responding to.

      Mr. Farago has every right to have disdain for individuals who crave authority over their fellow man, especially as someone who has lost family members to state authorities who we were allowed to go unchecked in their abuses of power. Mr. Farago as a Jewish man who happens to tell the truth about the hypocrites who have been allowed to usurp power and who regularly and openly abuse it. I as a Christian enjoy how he encourages the followers of his website to exercise our God given rights to arm themselves, and he is not treading in too bad of footsteps, as I believe another Jewish man encouraged his followers to arm up in the past so they could confront the acts of wicked men.
      I do think Mr. Farago does not know what he means when he says he is a second amendment absolutist, or he is smart enough not to write an article about the true intent of the second amendment, which we are experiencing more and more. The second amendment was established so that a man may say No I do not consent by using a deliberate tool, when a person under authority tries to lay claim to that individual’s liberty. Being placed in handcuffs for officer safety is a citizen being stripped of the option of giving consent, which is an affront to freedom or the act of an armed criminal.

  8. re: force-on-force training

    Even with advanced skills in the above, it still happens in my experience. My last irl confrontation, a couple of years ago, illustrated this perfectly to me. Immediately upon the cessation of the conflict (hand-to-hand intervention between a male actively assaulting a female & attempting to wrest her through the door for what nefarious purpose, I dare not fathom), I noted upon successful conclusion of hostilities that the room was deathly quiet, from my perception of the moment.

    It took a few seconds for the roar of the crowd to fade in, & when I say roar, it was quite loud.

    The strange thing is, I was centered emotionally, with not even an adrenalin dump in effect. No tunnel vision, no blows successfully landed on me, perfect awareness of my immediate surroundings otherwise during the event (I checked an biu tze elbow to avoid accidentally giving a close proximity waitress a very bad day), and I am still befuddled as to why that particular sense suddenly switched off. After 17 years of training, 8 years of which were very intensive cycles, in similar scenarios with respect to the type of battle, and additionally with more than a few encounters in real life, I still don’t understand why.

    I can only come to the conclusion that some of the self induced sensory deprivation artifacts can still happen regardless of the intensity/longevity of your training cycles or direct experience. If you’re looking for a suggestion as to how to prevent such, I unfortunately, do not have a solution to that problem. Stress can manifest itself in strange ways. YMMV.

    • ” . . .The strange thing is, I was centered emotionally, with not even an adrenalin dump in effect. No tunnel vision, no blows successfully landed on me, perfect awareness of my immediate surroundings otherwise during the even . . .”

      Some people actually become more calm during periods of extreme stress. The military tries to select for it. Zen masters and various martial arts disciplines understand it as an altered state of consciousness and train for it with some success.

      • “and various martial arts disciplines understand it as an altered state of consciousness and train for it with some success.”

        I would fall in these categories, martial artist as well as ex-military. Ving Tsun and it’s little talked about, and even lesser known predecessor. As well as 64 Leg, Dim Mak, Baguazhang, Chen style Tai Chi, & Chin Na. Although I have to admit I favor the more grounded Southern internal styles over all.

        In any case, that would be why I was surprised at the momentary auditory sensory loss.

  9. That is one of my great (perhaps “grave”) concerns. Some of the young policemen and deputies I see nowadays concerns me since many do not have any experience in making these split second decisions that I would find it difficult with which to trust wizened veterans.

    • Yep. What worries me is “DROPTHEGUN/BANG!” instead “Drop the gun . . . . . .bang” if necessary.

    • Seems so. It’s pretty unlikely that a jerked trigger would cause a round to land in the neck. Looks like an attempted murder instead of calmly shooting to stop the threat, with that in mind.

    • The cop shooting at an upward angle could account for the high shot placement(ground up to porch), or as stated the cop wasn’t too good at his first attempted act of state sanctioned murder, thankfully. Instead the cop only may have paralyzed the man for being armed and defending his own life, on his own land, which used to be an American trait.

  11. The cop who shot the homeowner was in no danger from the homeowner. I’m sure that the officer thought that he was in danger, but clearly he wasn’t. And that low level of awareness is a problem for me.

    I can’t help thinking that when the cops’ only mission is to get home safe at night, then protecting those who deserve protection is completely forgotten and doesn’t matter any more (if it ever did). Perhaps a bit more training might help to remind officers of the law that they are supposed to help, not shoot, crime victims.

    • I seems to me that police consider any armed person, other than another officer, a threat.To an extent this is understandable; upon arriving at a scene, the officers often do not know who is who, and it is simply a lot safer to treat everyone as a possible hostile until the scene is “controlled.”

      On the other hand, I think that officers are often too quick to shoot. Just think for a moment, someone comes up behind you and yells, “Freeze!” What is your natural reaction? I surmise that most people will turn around and say, “What?” and that will get them shot, like that kid in Santa Rosa California who was going to a friend’s house carrying an Airsoft AK with the orange tip missing. His natural reaction got him killed, and it was deemed a justifiable homicide. Add to that the many vids we’ve seen, where different officers are yelling, often different things, and even worse, yelling conflicting instructions. It gets people killed. What are you supposed to do when one is yelling “Don’t move,” and the other is yelling “Get on the ground now!”?

    • I agree, but I will stipulate that I wasn’t there and without a thorough investigation (which should happen) it’s hard to be too definitive.

      • Skyler, there won’t be a real investigation. The best we can hope for is something less than a whitewash.

  12. If you carry any kind of firearm as a citizen, you absolutely have more to fear from LE than you do from criminals. Add a multiplier to that if you happen to be in in a slave state with ridiculous gun laws.

    As politicians and LE begin to lose their monopoly on violence, I cant help but wonder if you we will be seeing more and more of this

    If you are shooting at me you better not miss, because I will shoot back. The right of self defense is not forfeit because LE doesn’t have their facts straight before pulling the trigger. Even if you were the one who called them.

    • Agreed. Just because a Officer is scared and doesn’t have his/her shit straight doesn’t mean we Lose our right to self defense.

    • True enough, but remember that cops go absolutely murderous when another cop gets killed and they WILL kill you because they never come alone and if you shoot at one of them, even if you are legally correct, you will be dead all the same.

      • That blood thirsty reaction of looking for retaliation for the loss of one of their own interestingly applies to the mentality of other groups of individuals. These other groups of individuals tend to live off of intimidation in order to try and keep populations under their control, and usually these groups are called organized crime, not law enforcement.
        If you have to shoot a member of an organized crime syndicate, just remember if you shoot one you need to be immediately prepared to shoot a bunch more of them. The thought of shooting to stop the threat or shooting to kill is helped by the fact that these aren’t the types of individual who would show you mercy, as exhibited by their chosen profession.
        At least with outlaws you know their criminal intentions and don’t have to say yes sir.

    • Call the coppers to clean up the bodies. Or after it is safe enough to put away your gun.

      • Just call a funeral home. Less hassle and they won’t kill your dogs.

        • What’s your advice for when the funeral home people call the cops and tell them you’re trying to dispose of bullet riddled bodies?

        • Yeah. You could move somewhere to the boonies – say, northern Idaho? around Bonners Ferry?

  14. A lot belongs with 911 in this state they all are supposed to receive advanced training. My experience is they are mostly morons. I had a burglar with a big bowie knife at gun point, gave a description of me as homeowner told not to disarm the burglar but for me to do so & put hands behind my head. Might as well slit my throat myself. Put my dog down last week car caught fire at c-store, dispatch told me to have them push the car towards pumps. Think they were a little mad when I gave them a street address landmarks less than a mile away 14 minutes to respond, when all volunteers better response, dispatch and EMS separate more saves.
    Had a complete heart block they asked me to walk to stretcher.

    SC tries to pretend they are big time but are 20 years behind. BTW cops are taught shoot from hip in SC not Weaver, Iscoles or modified. Weaver, no aiming just old style FBI Hop to clear suit & shoot from hip. Sorry guys I teach to put a round where it belongs in the bad guy. 5th generation cop, I call them citizens & use common sense. Much lacking everywhere these days.

  15. I’ve heard that certain tacti-cool courses have a drill/evolution for police intervention; at random times, when yelled at, you must drop your handgun. Realistically replicating such training outside of such special ranges would require some thought regarding range and safety.

  16. Plain clothes and off duty LEOs are instructed to holster or secure their firearms before contact with arriving uniforms they do not know. If unable to secure weapon before hand follow the uniformed officers commands. Do not get into an argument over you being an officer to prevent a blue and blue incident. Citizen are advised to do the same, because it is easier to clear up any misunderstandings when everyone is still alive afterward.

    • My problem is dispatchers telling you to secure prior to arrival on duty I have waited as long as 45 minutes for a cover unit. Took 15 minutes to get a back-up when I had 2 jump me on an unsecured door call. Literally fighting for my life. At some times have 5 max to cover 46 square miles. But they give tax breaks to companies that might bring a few ddozen minimum wage jobs.

  17. The way I read this the 2 bg’s were running off on bikes and the resident was outside. IMHO under those circumstances there was no further reason to have your gun in plain sight.

    Does this excuse the bad judgement on the cops part? No. But at the earliest,safest moment I’m disarming after an incident that is likely to bring in the cops.

    • IMHO under those circumstances there was no further reason to have your gun in plain sight.

      Not necessarily. BGs have been know to take another swipe at a target. Even when they’re looking down the barrel of a gun.

    • In most cases, the right thing to do is seek cover in a position that provides the best protection for you and your family, which is usually a safe-room in the house. Do not leave your family unprotected to chase down the BG. When you call the police, tell them where you are, that you are armed, and you will not put down the firearm until the police have cleared the area.

  18. You guys are totally out of touch with reality. I have been in shootings both in uniform and undercover, and I have responded to calls similar to the one above. Dispatch should give a description of the homeowner/self defender, but the dispatcher on the other end of the phone is loaded with adrenaline just like everybody else involved. If I show up and I see a guy with a gun, adrenaline or not, I will see that person as a threat, especially if they are refusing to follow my commands. I have never had a problem getting the home owner/self defender to put down the weapon, however; maybe people are just smarter where I live and work.

    I once had uniformed officers show up after I was in a shooting on an undercover assignment. The neighbors called 911. I had one down, another at gunpoint, and I was the only one standing. Know what I did when the uniforms showed? I dropped the weapon. I know that, like everybody else on Earth, the officer would focus on the threat, which was the gun. Dropping the gun meant the threat was no longer in his view. And now, here I am, typing this stuff out, just because I’m not a dumba**.

    Almost every comment I have read has come from somebody that has never been in this situation or used lethal force – I guarantee it. Otherwise, you might disagree a few of the responses by law enforcement, but you would get what was happening on the other side of the trigger. You guys have this fantasy of what being in a lethal encounter is like, but you sound like 5 year old kids. You have completely ignorant and unrealistic expectations of what goes down.

    I guess this is why so many trainers have started running LE/Mil only training classes…

    • >Almost every comment I have read has come from somebody that has never been in this situation or used lethal force – I guarantee it.

      The hilarity of a cop who faces vastly more lenient consequences (if any) for using lethal force when compared to civilians griping about civilian criticisms.

      >I guess this is why so many trainers have started running LE/Mil only training classes…

      The real reason is the trainers can grossly overcharge the piggies with their Byrne grants.

    • I think the fundamental problem, and not your fault because it is taught this way, is that you expect people to obey your commands. A policeman is not my boss. He is just another person, a fellow citizen, who is paid to put himself in danger. Maybe the law says that you can give commands, and it probably does in your jurisdiction just like every other jurisdiction, but that doesn’t make it right.

      I don’t need cops. Cops have never really done anything positive in my life, except to occasionally block traffic when there’s been an accident. Otherwise, all I have ever seen cops do is break my friend’s neck for no reason and hand out speeding tickets.

      I wish we could just end the whole mindset of having police in our lives. We can start by getting rid of the innumerable laws we are supposed to unknowingly obey, and get rid of the incentive for organized crime. I don’t want a utopia, but I don’t think we are better off with cops than we would be without cops.

      • You know why modern America will never get rid of police? It’s the same reason police have turned into what they are now, a result of several decades of the public gradually abandoning the sense of personal responsibility they should have inherited from the Founding Fathers and two hundred years of living under the Constitution.

        Half of my job can reasonably be described as adult babysitting. I accept that, and I’m not asking for sympathy or for anyone to be impressed. The fact is, though, that millions of regular folks in this country expect the government to take care of them in ways that should absolutely not be government functions, both regarding police and also the general social welfare state we have been building since the New Deal. As long as that is reality, policing will remain what it is. Because the voters want it that way.

        • Ayup, we’re a 1st world nation in the 21st century. .gov and the police ain’t going away. And if they did we would have a come to jesus moment the likes of which the sovereing citizen types would be filling their panties over.

          What we can and must do is make .gov more responsive to the rights of the individual. Elections matter.

        • >Elections matter

          No they don’t, they’re just the facade used by the political class to manufacture the illusion of consent for their vast crimes.

          Democracy is literally the biggest lie ever told in the history of mankind.

      • Oh, what a big interwebz toughguy you are! I hope you are truly honest with yourself, and never, ever, ever call any police/LEO for anything in your life. I seriously doubt it, unless you are an outlaw biker. They actually live the type of lives that you claim to desire. Most of them are still career criminals, just not hypocrites.

        • The irony of calling bikers “criminals” when the only motorcycle riders openly robbing people on highways are cops.

    • How nice of you to express such ignorance. Hollywood is a ruralish area about 10 miles away from my home (in the city of Charleston). I know many people there, and can say without a doubt that they are far from the stereotypical “trailer trash” that most people picture. They are mostly good people living within their means in an area that lacks the population density and elitist attitude of the average urbanite (I can generalize too).

  20. I was in a shooting once, about two years ago now. Haven’t really talked about it here because I don’t want to sound like I’m bragging, and even though we got there in about three minutes flat, four people had already been killed. About the only good thing I can say is that after we got there, the only person who got hurt was the suspect.

    I won’t go through the whole story, but the relevant part here is that when we arrived, and saw the suspect, one of us shouted commands several times, “Police, drop the gun” very loudly. Instead of dropping the gun, he stopped stuffing shells into his mag and started scanning for us.

    Now, I am not saying that every homeowner with a gun should be treated like that, but just because this particular case turned out to be a homeowner doesn’t mean they all are. No more than my shooting means that all similar calls are active shooters. Just keep in mind, it does happen both ways.

  21. You all have a great life living in your little world of stupidity. It is great to see where the stupid stand on issues. It lets me get a good insight into the some of the people we have in this world. The narrow minded are quite entertaining. Thank God you all are the minority and not the majority.

  22. Wow, Gregory. Why don’t you go have a lie down and come back when you’re not so cranky.

  23. It is amazing how pro gun and anti gun people agree to hate the police so much. The world paradise you both dream of will never happen. The police in what ever form will always have guns and the government permission to kill even if the killing was not necessary or just an accident.

    When white majority neighborhoods have no police and the criminals know it just like they know the police will seldom come , when called in some black neighborhoods then you will have the same level of violence and fear in places where a majority of white people live.

    If you think the world would be better without police you are just another left wing utopian or a right wing utopian.

    The police deal with people who have no or don’t want self control. As a law abiding gun owner you need to have self control.

  24. Matt in FL at 18:24, so the comment section is just an echo chamber where we can’t disagree? Confirmation bias? Whatever. The homeowner in this case is not a responder to the incident, he is the victim of the crime, and most likely the victim of a bad police shoot. He’s a participant in the incident, as I said the victim, who was lawfully armed and defended his life. By very definition, the cop was the first “responder” to this crime, by an outsider not involved in the incident. When RF choose to call the cop a “so called first responder,” you, me and everybody else reading this post knew what he meant. The so called reference was a demeaning insult. That’s ok, he can say what he wants. So can I and so can you. But you questioning why I don’t get it, is evidence that far too many here in these comments want a one opinion, don’t criticize RF, echo chamber. Sorry to dissapoint you with my opinions.

    • No, sorry, I didn’t “know what he meant,” at least not the way you did. I have seen the phrase “you are your own first responder” here many, many times. So when I saw the first responder comment, that’s where my mind immediately went. Yours went to cop hate. I suppose you could say we both fell victim to our own confirmation bias. The only difference is mine doesn’t assume the worst from someone.

      • Matt, you can call it confirmation bias if you want, but when I see the “so called” used by RF in reference to cops as first responder, I knew why he used it. Why is it when some see cops referred to as first responders, they somehow see that as a slight or hit on lawfully armed citizens who defend themselves with a gun when attacked? I like the English language and the words responder and first have well known definitions and I’ll use them as known and widely accepted by those definitions. Calling cops and fire rescue personnel first responders is in no way a slight on lawfully armed citizens defending themselves from attack. I’ll readily admit that as a LEO, my shields are up when people take the bad acts of individual cops and use that to broadbrush all cops/LEO. So when I see that, I’ll call it fir what it is.

  25. Also, hey Ralph, regarding boot licking, with the amount of licking of RF’s “all hat, no cattle” cowboy boots, that you do as a regular comments section RF buttboy, you could teach us all what boot licking is about. P.S., it is cop hate.

  26. If you’re the one calling the cops, be sure to tell the phone operator you’re armed.

  27. Hmm, white cop in SC sees a black man with a gun, assumes he’s breaking the law, and shoots him.

    I’m guessing this isn’t the first time this has happened.

    Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

    • I am usually highly suspicious of officers by default, but this comment is just flat out wrong. Hollywood SC is a majority black area. CCSD knows this. This has nothing to do with race bias, and more to do with bad training.

  28. Cops are only needed and idolized by lazy dumb sheep….. I am my own protector and I trust myself implicitly….24/7/365!

  29. 1) Looks like this cop screwed up.

    2) To those who insist we have no need for police whatsoever, what happens if you LOSE the gun fight? This isn’t a Hollywood western.

    • Though not a Western, I’ll go ahead and use a Hollywood quote:

      Proper f*cked?

    • We have no real need for patrol officers. Police in an investigative role? Yes. Communities and individuals can handle street level protection, and if necessary, can hire private security. Private security companies can and will be more accountable for their actions, and more sensitive to customer satisfaction and service than those with “qualified immunity”.

      • I don’t disagree with anything you said, Rambeast–but one should note that it implies there is a role for cops, even if they often exceed it today. (In other words, you haven’t quite argued that “there’s no need for police whatsoever”)

        Qualified immunity is a huge part of the problem, there’s no accountability (except to your superior) for a mistake, and said superior might be part of a culture of letting those sorts of things slide.

      • Since some states barely require a high school diploma. MI only had to have 8th grade until a couple of years ago. Most require less than 8 hours to carry a firearm. Some states don’t even require license or training of any type. Even felons can qualify some places. So private security will take care of it all including the crime. I hold part ownership in several private security firms, loss prevention & private investigation companies. All trained to the same degree that police & investigative personnel used to be trained to. Average 200 hours before they even go near a weapon. All retired military, LEO”s or federal investigators. Or I can hire criminals to handle your safety & property for a whole $8.00 an hour.

        • >Or I can hire criminals to handle your safety & property for a whole $8.00 an hour.

          Well damn, that’s what we have now and it costs a lot more than 8 bucks an hour.

          • Since most departments are hiring military veterans as new cops, veteran’s are criminals according to your logic. Have you ever had a weapon pointed at you? Ever had to draw on someone except in a video game?

        • If I do draw a gun on someone, it won’t be to enforce garbage laws dictated by malfaisant politicians.

          Also LOL @ your logic that veterans are somehow morally immune from all future misdeeds because of their “service”. Nah bro, I’m saying cops are criminals because their current job as cops, not because of their previous job as soldiers.

        • @Retired LEO, Hiring vets is part of the problem. Their training is a liability when translated into civilian life as law enforcement. When you stack the current police training that induces paranoia of death at any moment, with military experience that brands all not in uniform as possible enemy combatants, you lose what policing used to be, protectors and members of the community. This isn’t blanketed across every officer on the job, but can be a high enough percentage that the good ones get sucked into the actions of the truly egregious actors.

          • I have been trying for the last 15 years to get better screening, training, less dependence on toys and more on common sense. The major problems are they have grown up with video games and don’t think anyone that call people citizens rather than civilians are old fashioned. Union’s demanding more ECD. & less hands on, tax breaks for hiring ex-military. Real officers don’t want these backing them plus the 21-25 y/o being made supervisor that don’t have any field time. These are much more likely to get us killed since they are scared to start with.
            We need older officers to stay on, promotion based on ability and psych testing. Take the race card and use it to start the next riot to get it gone. If they call them civilians in a job interview trash the application. I participated in a hiring a few months ago the qualified expert with 25 years was White so he was dumped. Black who lied on resume and his current chief was firing gets hired due to race and willing to work for $1,000 a year less. This country has to start hiring the best.for Law Enforcement, not based on race, unions happiness, political correctness, or because they.were in the military. This country keeps recalling guard and reserve so keep the military in the military. Retire at 20 then go work for a construction co. Or whatever you are really qualified to do. If it’s policing fine if not, don’t do it because you always wanted too & the Army said no.

            My family started in Tyler TX in 1874 in law enforcement so I have a bit of history. In SC in 10 days our Bike fest will be a riot, most cops here are white because blacks don’t have the feeling to give back to the public in this area area a few yes but most took the job for benefits or stuck not being able to get a job post military.

            But security guards & most I have met or dealt with other than the ones my company hires & trains are Paul Blart Mall Cop types.We don’t want them either; do we?

        • Perhaps the real reason modern policing is not an attractive career choice for smart people is because acting as a bludgeon for the political class isn’t very appealing to anyone to except bullies, psychopaths and sadists.

          • Or they are sick & tired of being treated like carp even if they do deserve respect. People get sick of being called.names & psychopaths buy nut jobs playing D&D online in Mommy’s basement. At 45.

  30. “good guys kill me?”

    Where you being cheeky there RF? Was that an accidental of deliberate mind fap?

  31. If you’re butthurt at the antipathy towards LEO’s, maybe you guys should quit covering your own asses all the time.

  32. For reasons good or bad, cops will shoot the innocent… Some can say it’s the nature of the circumstances, some can say cops are evil…

    Don’t call them until the bad mojo is over. People, cops or not, showing up to the scene halfway through, is never good…

  33. Who cares? The only thing that matters is that the officer went home to his family and the worthless civilian fag was sent to the morgue where he belongs.

  34. Sucky situation. The victim got it right in his (dying) interview, though.

    It’s a good thing it was recorded.

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