New From Angstadt Arms: UDP-9 9mm PDW

1. 9mm carines? Yuk.

2. Looks like good competition for the evo if the street price is in the low 9s. Can’t wait to get my hands on it.

   • Well w/ MSRP “right around $1k” it’s going to cost more than the Scorpion w/ MSRP of $849. I’ve already seen the Scorpion listed as low as $733 (KYGunCo).

     • Explain please. I didnt think any of those had been released yet.
       Edit: Found them. Out of stock of course but I had no idea any of them had hit shelves. MPX get your shit together or I’m going this route.

3. Love me some pistol caliber carbines. UDP-9 looks nice.

   …review of the QC10 lower receiver, FYI, should be done as early as this weekend and as late as shortly after SHOT Show. It and the Lone Wolf G9 (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/jeremy-s/gun-review-lone-wolf-g9-ar-15-lower-receiver-for-glock-magazines/) have lots of similarities but a couple very big differences so those will be discussed in the QC10 review.

4. these things are so stupid.

5. “unlike some other GLOCK magazine-based guns the lower receiver is specifically designed for that mag — no adapter required”. This bit is wrong – there are no adapters for Glock mags out there, at least on anything resembling a common platform. If you’re taking Glock mags, you were specifically designed to take Glock mags.

6. Wait now, some of these are pistol caliber carbines? I thought they were pistols? Putting a Sig brace on something and calling it a carbine is SBR intent. Glad I plan on using a Sig brace in the future help maintain stable one hand ed shooting position.

   • This.

7. As more of these come out, the price should drop.
   Make mine a 10mm please…

8. Way oversized broomhadle mauser. Now when will they make it in .357 magnum.

9. Maybe I’m dumb, but can somebody please explain to me what PCC’s are good for? Outside of a very small number of specific applications, these seem to combine the disadvantages of two things with the advantages of neither.

   The small size of handguns make them endlessly useful for general purpose stuff, but their projectiles are comparatively slow, making for poor lethality and poor effective range. Rifles are large, long, heavy, and high profile, but they have excellent effective range and their projectiles are fast enough that their lethality is excellent. Seems to me that with a pistol caliber carbine, you get only a marginal improvement in ballistics compared to handguns in a platform the size of a rifle. Anyone care to enlighten me?

   • You’re pretty much right in my opinion, but they do appeal to some people. New shooters and some female shooters may like the lower recoil/muzzle flash than traditional rifle calibers. A carbine is also inherently easier to master and shoot accurately than a handgun beyond bad-breath distances, if only because you have more points of contact/stability. Interchangeable ammo and mags with an already owned pistol may appeal to some shooters, especially on a budget. A lot of people just want them for fun, as 9mm is pretty affordable now and available. Though not my choice, they would be more than adequate for home defense. But in the end I agree and don’t have much use for a PCC beyond plinking.

   • Pistol caliber suppression vs less effective rifle caliber.
     Small, but stable platform vs a handgun.
     High cap mags will be easier to deal with vs a handgun.
     Cheaper to train with (ammo cost).

     • I can deal with cheaper ammo, all others I submit .300 blk SBR. Or “pistol”, if you prefer.

       • I get to practice with my rifle three times as much shooting 9mm compared to someone spending the same amount of money on .300BLK. People keep saying that in self defense, shot placement is the most important thing and, thanks to being able to go to the range so often because ammo is so (relatively) cheap, I’ve gotten fairly good with the rifle. Plus, for those of us who only have access to an indoor range because of where we live, there isn’t much to be gained from practicing with a rifle caliber round.

         If I have to use my 9mm AR-15 in self defense, it’s probably going to be in my home and within 25 ft. At those distances, a standard 32 round magazine loaded with hollow points is no joke.

   • Cheap ammo, and their fun. Not all guns have to have some form of tactical need. Sometimes I just like shooting watermelons

     • Poor, innocent WATERMELONS? You are a beast!

       • Does it help they are wild and rather sour? You’ve never like until you’ve placed a bit of tannerite in some watermelon(Or a pumpkin)

   • Alright, fair enough. Thanks for the answers.

   • There is a lot of hate for pcc’s. Some is well deserved, but they are fun. That being said I’ve never understood why pcc’s don’t have a greater following with the 300blk crowd who want a suppressor one day. When you want subsonic ammo your velocity is capped so bullet mass is everything. 300blk subsonic factory loads @220 gr are about 560lb-ft out of a rifle length barrel. Maybe 510 out of a short barrel.

     9mm 147 grain +p+ loads are up to 450lb-ft out of a pistol length barrel. Maybe 480ish out of a longer sbr.

     40s&w 180-200 gr loads max out around 500lb-ft out of a pistol length barrel. Higher out of a longer sbr barrel.

     You lose some range because of the lower ballistic coefficient, but these aren’t long range firearms to begin with. you also lose muzzle flash, and noise, which may be less of an issue with a suppressor, but still a factor. Ammo is more widely available, and Much cheaper so you can do more shooting without being a part time reloaded. Now add in the fact that you need to stock less variety of ammo and magazines and suddenly the concept isn’t so terrible.

     These values were all pulled off a ammo reference chart so they are somewhat realistic, although I’ve not taken the time to do the math myself to check it all, or reference barrel length velocity charts…at least not recently enough to list numbers with confidence.

     Btw I’m still waiting for a m&p magazine compatible version!

     • Until there are 30 caliber rounds that expand reliably at subsonic speeds, .300blk is still sub par to pistol rounds from short barrels.

     • For M&P magazine compatible PCC, see Thureon Defense. I have one, it works great with M&P mags, and their carbines are well regarded.

       I wasn’t able to find .40 S&W factory ammunition that would be subsonic out of the 16″ barrel, but there are handload recipes for .40 S&W with 200 gr (e.g. Hornady XTP) bullets that should be subsonic out of the 16″ barrel (I haven’t actually tested that yet).

   • I had a blog posting on this once upon a time, but here we go…

     To have an advantage over a centerfire SBR, pistol caliber carbines need to be:
     1. Small size: pistol calibers don’t require as much barrel as rifle calibers to be effective. I always chop PCCs to SBR lengths.
     2. Light-weight: rifle calibers tend to require heavier receivers due to higher pressures from the cartridge
     3. Suppressed/Quiet: pistol calibers can be suppressed far more effectively than most rifle calibers (and 147gr 9mm is WAY cheaper than subsonic .300BLK)

     Preferably, you want all three, but two out of three can be acceptable. My favorite example is the Glock SBR, which is very light, suppresses well, and is pretty damn small. But you’re right that a 6lb-7lb PCC with a 16″ barrel is basically a waste of time.

     Of course, advancing technology is infringing even on these advantages. The Kel-Tec SU-16D9 SBR is stupidly light and small gun, and doesn’t even suppress too badly (especially if you could rebarrel to .300AAC).

     • I agree with you completely. Sbr pistol caliber vs sbr .223/556, I’d take the pistol caliber any day of the week. The overall function should be much better than a low velocity 556 round, with lots of flash and noise. Suppressed sbr, Pcc wins all the way, too.

       300 bulk gets you pretty close but at the expense of cost, and ammo availability.
       Unfortunately a thurean carbine is out of my price range. When I’ve got some cash I will be getting a sub2k with a model 59 or beretta mag well and modding the mag release to work with m&p magazines. Alternately, an ar lower sized for an m&p magazine would be a viable build as well. At this point, I would need an 80% lower and some serious time and tooling to make it all work. But the advantage is AR parts comparability.

       • @Detroiter:
         “The overall function should be much better than a low velocity 556 round, with lots of flash and noise”

         That is not even close to the truth.

10. Although I’m not really interested in one, I can see why more mfgr’s are coming out with these. Aside from the Hi-Point, the JR carbine, expensive MP5 clones, kel tec, and a few others, there isn’t that much on the market. I don’t think my local mega FFL has any pistol carbines on the shelf right now. The AR market is saturated so I guess this is the next logical step. Now we have to see if enough people actually buy them.

11. This thing has a Sig brace or equivalent on it. It’s being marketed as a carbine with a pistol caliber, not as a pistol with a Sig brace; therefore, my thinking is it would fall under the Short Barreled Rifle restrictions. Add also, “Designed specifically for urban environments and close quarter combat,” I think because of the marketing, ATF will apply the “intended use” restriction and require paperwork be done.

    • If it were being marketed as an SBR, it would have a collapsible stock, not a Sig brace.
      “Urban environments and close quarter combat”? YGBSM. So I’m carrying that thing around on the city streets? Are we playing some sort of video game here? ‘Cuz that is ridiculous.

      • Agreed. But I spend a good amount of time on thr border, and often alone. For those times, I like an Underground Tactical 10.5″ AR in .458SOCOM with a folding stock. It fits in my backpack just fine, so nobody notices it when I check into some random motel.. But I would rather have a suppressor ready MPX that will run a hot .45ACP or, as Tom in Oregon suggested, a 10mm.

12. “pistol caliber carbine???” MOST of what I’m seeing are “rifle caliber pistols.”

    • This particular offering seems to be a pistol caliber pistol.

      • Not looking to be concealed! How would we OC that thing? Methinks it is actually a range toy, which I do not object to. Or buy.

13. My credit card must be sweating with all these fun 9mm options looming… Let’s just hope 9mm doesn’t turn into the new 22lr. I guess at least you can load 9mm. I’m still holding out for the 9mm ak that century needs to make.

14. I’ve been advocating PCC’s for years. If you’ve never picked one up and used it, you’ll change your mind. If you live in a free state, a PCC can easily carry a 25-30 round magazine and put repeated hits into a 5 inch circle, at 25 yards, with practice. At 15 yards, a relative novice can print a 5″ goup with little difficulty. Put in modern hollow points and what do you imagine will be left, inside a 5″ group of lets say 5-6 rounds, center mass of a bad guy. Sure a .357 makes a big mess too but lets be realistic, 30 rounds are better than or 6/7.

    I like them, with the right sights and set up, a 9mm PCC can reach out to 100m reliably. A pistol anything (less than .44) at 100 yards is a long, very steady and skilled shot. My Sig 226 at 50 yards needs to be held right at forehead level to achieve center mass hits. My Colt SMG can sit right at shoulder leve and achive the same results. Flip the rear sight up a notch and viola, the same is possible at 100.

    It’s a great home defense option. Capable of stopping multiple attackers due to it’s high capacity. If you’re looking for a one gun fits all HD weapon, this will do it for you. State and local laws permitting.

    • I have a colt 633 DOE clone I built, and I love it. Is it good past 100yds? Not really. I have AKs/ ARs/ bolt actions for that. What it is good for is a low recoil, low noise (pistol cartridges are much quieter in enclosed spaces than rifle rounds) high capacity home defense gun. They’re cheap to shoot, easy for smaller shooters and useful for training up new shooters to rifles with similar ergonomics. With a red dot on mine, I can consistently eat up all the black at 25yds on a target. Follow up shots are easy, as the added weight means the firearm barely moves. Yet they remain light, as less barrel = less weight. My 633 pistol (with the thorsden buffer cover) weighs maybe 5.5lbs fully loaded.

      Plus, they’re fun as hell. I am interested to see what the street price of the CZ is- If it’s around $750, its going on my list.

      • I agree, a hundred yards is about it. I was just trying to make a point, that a PCC can do a lot more than many folks realize. A a suppressed PCC woudl also work very well in a Zombie Apocolypse (someone had to say it…)

15. “Designed specifically for urban environments and close quarter combat, the UDP-9 is a compact, personal defense weapon chambered in 9mm and fed with GLOCK® magazines.”
    … you mean, like a GLOCK®?

    Seriously, I don’t know what I see in that photo. Either it’s a rifle pretending to be a pistol (to fool the ATF with the “arm brace” (wink, wink), or it’s pistol that’s way more bulky and complicated than a pistol needs to be.

    An honest-to-god pistol caliber carbine has a couple advantages over its handgun counterpart. 1) You can shoulder it, which is a tremendous advantage for accuracy, and 2) it has a 16″ plus barrel that can boost muzzle velocity significantly (with the right powder).

    This gun has neither of those advantages (unless you shoulder it, but the ATF says that’s illegal). It’s not a pistol caliber carbine. It’s just a big, bulky, complicated, expensive pistol.

16. I don’t understand people’s fascination with 9mm AR15’s. It like someone said “Hey! Lets modify this rifle so it can ONLY accept a vastly inferior cartridge!”. To which lots of people responded “Only if still costs the same price as the superior version!”

    • Hey, at least they’re gas operated, so you get to spend plenty of time cleaning them.

    • Hmm, never shot one. Can easily tell…..

17. For an untrained or minimally trained user, 9mm carbines are very easy because they tend to be lighter than rifles, while still having recoil less even than .223. At the same time, because they can be properly shouldered, they’re also much easier to shoot well compared to a handgun (where you have to teach them proper stance etc, and then hope that it’ll all be remembered when SHTF).

18. What interests me in the “PCCs” is that I can take them to the local indoor ranges without needing to be a member.

    Around here you can shoot pistol caliber cartridges and .22lr without needing to spend for an annual range membership and instead just paying the nominal lane fee. If you want to shoot rifles then you need to be a member and those annual memberships (at least, the membership levels that allow rifles) can get spendy.

    Now, I MUCH prefer plinking up in the mountains where I can run what I want but the closest shooting pit to me is 1h 45 min drive one way. Double that for round trip plus actual shooting and clean-up time. You’re realistically talking about half the day. I don’t always have the time. Plus, in the Seattle area, the weather can be inclement at times and the road into “my” shooting is buried under snow from ~ December to May / June.

    Anyways, I’ve always liked the form factor of these types of carbines and I’m holding out for the MPX. Can’t decide what flavor to get yet: Pistol or Carbine (which I haven’t heard much about yet).

19. I get it, I really do. I understand it better for the magnum cartridges (.44 and .357) that really benefit from a longer barrel and can turn a handgun cartridge into a respectable rifle round.

    The real advantage that all of these offer is the stock. A stock will help your accuracy and your control over the weapon. There are very few situations where I wouldn’t rather have a stock to help with accuracy and faster follow up shots. That said, if you really want the advantages of a stock. A pump action shotgun with a 20 in barrel makes more sense to me.

    Now if someone will take the Tavor and instead of the 9x19mm copy the Russian’s 9x39mm idea and create the 9x45mm, with a big heavy bullet. Then I’d be very interested. Because ballistically you’re not gaining that much with most pistol calibers and if we want a weapon maximized for close range with follow ups- I’d rather just go all the way and get a caliber designed for close quarters.

20. PCC will continue to gain popularity, my next purchase is going to be one to SBR and suppress. I recently got back into guns and have decided to keep it minimalist. One caliber, one magazine type, and at most 5 guns. I am half way there with a g19 and 26 plus the sub 2k.

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