“Newton, North Carolina police say around 10:30 Saturday night someone called claiming they were Sean Prince, Karen’s son,” wbtv.com reports. “The caller also used the mother’s address. The caller informed them he shot and killed his girlfriend and was thinking about killing his parents, who he said he was holding hostage. Catawba County SWAT teams quickly came to the house prepared to kick down the door. The caller told police he had a 12 gauge shot gun.” Now imagine you’re in the house, sleeping peacefully . . .
“I have never been so scared in my life,” the mother said. Police called the family. The family had no idea what was going on.
“I hear my son on the phone,” the mother said. “Don’t hurt us. Don’t shoot us. We are coming downstairs.”
Once the family got downstairs, they were greeted by SWAT members on the front yard.
“We come to the front porch,” the mother said, “And it’s like ‘get down here. Get on your knees. Drop to your knees. Get down now,’ and I am saying what in the hell is going on? We haven’t done anything.”
Officers zip-tied the parents and the son when the family came out.
“A bit of my hand was poking out of the top,” the son said. “So they put a metal set on me as well, so they had me in two sets of handcuffs while I was freaking out.”
Police started asking questions and determined it was a prank call, and that the family had been “Swatted.”
“Until we know it is a hoax,” Catawba County Captain Joel Fish said, “We have to treat it as real. It’s unfortunate that people are doing this.”
Mega-kudos to Captain Fish for calling the family before dropping the SWAT hammer. There’ve been plenty of incidents where SWAT teams go in and go in hard without any prior warning, reckoning that a heads-up gives the [alleged] bad guy or guys time to get ready to do bad things to good people.
It’s only a matter of time before SWATting leads to some seriously bad shit (to use the legal term). Someday a cop’s going to shoot an innocent or an innocent gun owner is going to shoot a cop – and get shot in return. How do the police avoid this nightmare scenario? By treating every call as a possible hoax. Is that part of their training? I doubt it.
How does a gun owner defend him or herself against SWATting, which can arrive violently without any warning? No clue. It’s a Kobayashi Maru (no win-situation). If you don’t respond to a violent home invasion with violence you could be mistaking a non-police invasion for a police invasion. And lose. And yes, drug thugs have been known to dress up as cops and raid homes yelling police! If you do respond, you could end-up in a firefight with the police. And lose.
Here’s the “official advise”:
It is important to know anyone can be “Swatted.” It is advised be careful with your personal information online.
If police suddenly show up at your house, follow orders. If you think you could be a target – call police and give them your phone number. Tell them to call your house first before responding to a violent 911 call coming from your home.
Proactively warn cops not to let some twisted gamer SWAT you? Has it really come to that?
“And it’s like ‘get down here. Get on your knees. Drop to your knees. Get down now,’ ”
And what happens if you calmly reply “show me your warrant or leave my property”?
They don’t need a warrant if they have reason to believe there is an emergency. A hostage taking and murder is an emergency.
They can believe the moon is made of blue cheese too.
It doesn’t mean they have probable cause for warrantless entry.
In this case, they admitted to being skeptical of the call when they called the residence to verify it. Then when they were were unable to verify it with the residents they were standing on very thin ice.
I am fairly certain that the laws of physics are more relevant when it comes to ones survival.
Yes, I think you’re much better off trying to sue later than trying to protect your 4th A rights in the middle of a SWAT raid.
Belief in a cheesy moon might not be cause for entry, but belief that a person inside is about to commit murder is. Similarly, the fire department can legally break down your door if they see signs of a fire inside, or get a 911 call about you having a heart attack.
It’s too bad police can’t get commendations for things like showing restraint and common sense.
…and apparently the procedure is to subdue and zip-tie the hostages.
Where exactly on your rail do you mount your ESP flux capacitor?
If the police knew for a fact who was who and what was what during a hoax, then they wouldn’t need to show up at all, now would they?
It’s not unheard of for assailants to attempt to use the chaos of a crime scene as cover for their escape. It’s standard practice for police at spree shooting scenes, for example, to detain everyone until they sort out who’s who. (That’s why you should resist than emotional urge to run straight for responding officers.)
If they did not, and a spree killer or home invader or bank robber or whomever waltzed right past them, I bet you’d be among the first to declare how flawed are their procedures and how incompetent they are in crime scene control.
Except for the L.A. Sheriff’s Department – they just shoot the hostages dead. Simpler that way, I guess.
Yes, JH, even downed & wounded military pilots subject themselves to being treated like the enemy until being safe, home, and in their jammies. Even then they sometimes still get the sideways glance (McCain).
But the OP is talking about your neighbor essentially using the police as a weapon against you, without regard to potential capital murder by the police without impunity. The police therefore owe you double the effort to pre-empt that or else they gotta go park it at the house, and the rest of us will just pay our taxes and take or chances.
Try reading the constitution. They DO NEED a warrant. No knock warrants are a violation of at least three of our rights protected by our constitution.
Brother who are you kidding we no longer live under the Constitution. We live under the force of law not the rule of law. We Americans are just comfortable in our corruption and are just well paid slaves. Thanks for that one previous generations by sacrificing your liberty for the state sanctioned illusion of security, which is the mask of fiat law and tyranny.
While I agree regarding no knocks, this was not one. However, do bear in mind that the Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions regarding the legality of police committing to action that would otherwise be unconstitutional. These are exceptions to the rule. The idea is that if a criminal flees into your home, or alternatively calls from your home claiming that he has taken people hostage, then the potential risk of harm outweighs the potential of a false call. Look up exceptions and exclusions to constitutional restraints on law enforcement. Much of it is really quite reasonable. Given that they are paid agents expected to come to our aid in emergent circumstances, it stands to reason that they actually be able to do so. On the other hand, this is why no knocks are so bad because unless I receive good information otherwise, I may be inclined to assume that the Armed men at my door have criminal intent. So I don’t disagree necessarily, but the fact is, they are actually allowed to enter your property without a physical warrant under certain circumstances. You may not agree with it, and sometimes I don’t depending on the circumstances. And hell, they may even get away with it even if they don’t have legal justification, which is a whole nother bag of worms. But if you really want to get in a shootout with actual cops because you don’t like their tone, or suspect an invalid warrant… On your own head be the consequences. Even on the off chance that you are some Billy bad ass and manage to take them all out…. Enjoy being a fugitive forever. I loathe police abuses, and believe in a slightly rustic form of the Constitution, but there comes a point where sane people need to accept reality, and not some fantasy where law enforcement as a whole, and the courts, actually agree with you totally. They already don’t. Deal with it or buck the system and start a civil war. Good luck with that….
Ya, so live in fear, or live in fear?
Cops, do your jobs, watch your a_ _. Degredation of Societal Agreement beyond common cause works both ways. Don’t bring your wallets to work then, you come to my house because your a citizen + and I’m just a citizen, and i “get past” all of you, I’ll drive your unit through your house. Never know, maybe a civil war just needs a concrete starting point.
Um, as icky as it is, a no knock warrant is a warrant.
A “warrant” has a judges signature.
A no-knock warrant bears the signature of a Judge.
It’s how the sicker is,served that’s stoopid and reprehensible, but it’s still compliant with the requirement that a Court be in the loop.
Kee-reist.
The police are not acting on, nor serving, a warrant on a 911 or swatting call. ISIS could start playing phone tag on you from the middle east, or mexico. Or, you could shut down a whole section of Boston, after a large local foot race. Im just saying extra duty of care ishould come from the cops, you’re not knocking on their door unannounced.
Lucky for us, the 4th amendment is null and void so we don’t have to worry about that bit of silliness.
The best defense against this is to try and keep a low profile
The best defense against this is to make SWATing chargeable as attempted murder with mandatory prison of say, 5 years.
Mandatory.
911 calls are recorded, use that in the investigation.
The first time some fvckwit gamer gets tossed in prison and it’s publicized, this crap will happen less and less.
totally agree.
Absolutely.
Horribly reckless and dangerous to all parties.
5 years. How about 5-15 with five year min. And life if somebody dies or is shot.
That said there are red flags. Where is the call coming from for example does that match up with the callers story? Can they describe things accurately etc.
Also in a hostage situation maybe busting in before calling is a bad idea.
Yes, please add commission of a violent crime with a gun with intent to you list of mandatory bad-ness….will go a long way in keeping those who would abuse their 2A rights to hurt others in jail where they belong
Yup. Swatting should be considered the potentially lethal violent felony it is, and aggressively prosecuted.
It’s not like it’s even hard, how many swatters are smart enough to do it from a burner phone?
No anonymous 911, no 911 from ‘unlisted.’ Criminal penalties and fines for Swatting. Death by cop for repeat offenders.
If it isn’t already, it should be impossible to block your caller ID to 911. Any time there is a bogus call it should be prosecuted, and bringing a SWAT team on an innocent person should be a felony. Stick a few of these guys away for a decade and take away their citizenship rights and at least only the stupidest pricks will try it.
The problem is they aren’t calling the 911 number, they are calling either a non emergency number or the desk. It’s a pretty formulaic thing that I am outlining and sending in for the July Content Contest. My shift has gotten pretty good about identifying swatting calls. We still take them seriously in case it turns out to be legitimate but when it fits the criteria of all of the swatting calls we have been on we usually just call inside to the phone number listed to the address and get the confused homeowners to step out and talk to us.
Sounds like an interesting read. Hurry up. 😉
I look forward to this story.
And just stoppng by for a quiet (albeit, and nevertheless, still concerned) chat, is the right way to demonstrate response capability.
Unfortunately, there are burner phones, which are mobile phones without signed contracts. So, somebody could SWAT someone else, burn the phone, and there is no way to trace it back to them. You are right, for SWAT’ing should be a felony. I bet a prosecutor could make the case that SWAT’ing is aggravated assault, though.
Yes, I hadn’t thought about burner phones. It used to be the bad guy would call from a pay phone but where do you find one of those these days. So I guess the burner phones have taken their place for serial killers, psychos and SWATers. Not that I would have our betters legislate them out of existence so the NSA can track our every move unhindered.
“Unfortunately, there are burner phones, which are mobile phones without signed contracts. So, somebody could SWAT someone else, burn the phone, and there is no way to trace it back to them.”
Isn’t every inbound call to LE recorded?
You have a recording of the voice who made the call. Someone at the residence SWAT’ed probably has an idea on who SWAT’ed them.
Burner/stolen/juvenile driven, too many scenarios to list. If you’re only used to a “neighbor across the hall” or down a flight of stairs, you gotta get out more.
My sheriff (God Bless and Speed them all) used to be a ~ 50 min. drive away at the midpoint of their beat. I had a neighbor commit suicide and we had to talk our sheriff on to the scene with how rural the roads were. She lay on her lawn for an hour for the first one, and two and a half for his backup, again God Help Him. But we’re on our own. All of us. Cops are there for clean up and paperwork, and to ride your a_ _ on whether you had justified force, when their own unions try to put that discussion off for 72 hours.
As was said on this site months ago, attempted murder charges for everyone in the house and every officer that enters.
I would think Conspiracy to Commit Murder is a better fit.
disclosure – I work IT for a MN County, including working with the 911 system.
Ok basic tech details:
First: 911 does not use “caller-ID” it uses ANI/ALI (Automatic Number Identification – Address Locator Information). ANI cannot be turned off by the user. (Unlike Caller-ID).
As to should be “impossible to turn off” — Most spoofed calls use VOIP {voice over IP} systems. The ANI information on VOIP is at the discretion of the user – becuase there’s no physical presence, only a virtual one. a 911 call taker cannot differentiate between a VOIP call, or a POTS (Plain Old Telephone) – their interface is the same either way.
This is the challenge – there is no centralized control over VOIP. (and there can’t be, it’s a decentralized system) An additional challenge, in network security we we have something we call the CIA triangle {Confidentiality/Integrity/Availability} = It’s the old joke pick any 2. The farther it swings to “Availability” the more “Confidentiality & Integrity” suffer.
by it’s nature 911 MUST be high availability.
I take it that there isn’t any way to come up with an IP address with VOIP, then. Even if there was they could use a proxy server.
Not for the call taker no.
Just to double check my math, the possibility of swatting makes reliance on the “system” bad up to 100% of the time.
no unlisted calls so “unidentified” source = cb/bus, band radios or undocumented faceless peole w/no fingerprints.
If you’re accused of something, admit to it immediately, but say their unknown source paid you to do it. When they ask you who, say ‘the cops’ said they would kill your family if you told.
If it’s impossible to block to 911, it would, in effect be impossible to block to anyone with the right connections.
Man, what about simply not permitting police officers to kick people’s doors down and do anything that may lead them to kill or main in error? The world got by just fine (plenty finer, as it were) before SWAT was even a gleam in some statist’s eye. Cops have no duty to protect you. But they sure as heck have a duty to not cause you unintended harm. Next time someone makes one of those calls, what about telling the caller “Send some effing proof I can take to an effing judge to get a proper effing warrant, before I go put down the donut tray and get my gun……”
There IS sketchy and illegal software that allows you to send the homeowner’s phone I.D. to the cops. HOW you you sue then? Also there will be NO record of the real origin of the call and it will get worse until a few SWATters get 30 years fed time no parole.
Ray
If it’s VOIP, it’s on the Internet.
There’s ALWAYS a logfile to go look at if you act quick enough.
Chris, I’ll take that challenge. It’s very easy to make an untraceable VOIP call even if you are running a network sniffer to capture all the traffic.
“Until we know it is a hoax,” Catawba County Captain Joel Fish said, “the only thing that matters to us is getting home safe. Oh, and maybe shooting your dog and flash-banging your infant son.”
Don’t leave out shooting your 7 year old daughter in the head.
Well, dude: Go home! And stay there. Safe as can be.
Take the firefight option. You only live once but if you take out enough cops you will establish a precedent that hopefully will save someone else.
You first internet warrior.
He isn’t wrong, though.
That’s not the point, but you have to make the stupid argument, you have to play it out to the end and be very extreme about it, or else you get fed a lot of Eeyore “ohhh bother” “bend over and take-it, watcha gonna do?”.
Give it right back as =
You bend over and take it. We’re stuck with each other here on this rock, or any next. If I get to feeling like you intend to f with me on purpose, I’ll be on you first.
It doesn’t take very much courage to fight back in a no win situation. That fact that people with nothing to lose are thought of as braggarts is pretty disturbing to me, I’d like to think that human nature is better than that, that anyone when confronted with a no win scenario would choose to go down fighting rather than die on their knees.
It is the sad state of affairs we live in. Too many have been conditioned to immediately submit to “authority” instead of questioning or confronting it. If enough SWAT members are killed during these raids, then instead of seeing the problem with the tactic, they’ll just employ more force. The minds of statists are very simple things when it comes to their decision making and reasoning. Individual officers may see the real problem, but systemically the approach is more force.
So you take a situation where the swatted person, who’s innocent and the cops, also innocent get into a firefight? People die and the real idiot, the prank caller walks away clean.
Why?
Because he likes to troll people on the internet?
Why would the cops be innocent? They are the ones breaking into your house and holding you at gunpoint on account of heresay. If I told you that the police station had been taken over by terrorists where where all wearing policing uniforms would you be innocent if you grabbed your guns and bashed in the doors? No, you would be a gullible idiot with a gun who thinks he has the right to do what he pleases for the greater good. The same as the SWAT component of swatiing. The only innocent party are the people in the house.
No, the cops may-be, or they are very likely innocent. But home invasion, or car invasion, or invasion of your personal space should boil down to the last-best-chance of avoidance theory of law, and fall away completely if we’re all extras on traing day.
For the lulz.
The only precedent you’ll establish, is one leading the next raid to include attack helicopters, tanks and heavy ordnance. Because “Until we know it’s a hoax, all that matters to us is getting home safe. If that means turning your neighborhood into a smoking crater, then so be it…”
If you think I’m exaggerating, Waco.
Just what we need.Barney fucking Fife in an Apache.
He only gets one hellfire missile and he has to keep it in his shirt pocket (which must be the largest shirt pocket ever).
I don’t know the answer to this one other than to have the death penalty for someone that plays this “prank”.
SWATting is attempted murder. A SWATting that gets someone killed is murder. The SWATters should be prosecuted as appropriate for these crimes.
Absolutely. If deliberately infecting someone else with HIV can be treated as attempted murder — and it has been, successfully — then SWATting can be even more so.
On top of the murder charge, the victim should be able to sue the perpetrator for damages beginning at half a million bucks.
“If deliberately infecting someone else with HIV can be treated as attempted murder — and it has been, successfully — then SWATting can be even more so.”
Sir, you are 100% correct about the legal precedence being set , but you forget the victims are not equal. The victim who was intentionally infected with aids was just a poor, innocent, person having unprotected sex.
The victim of a swatting is usually a Christian, small dicked, baby killing gun owner, whose death by aids is hoped for by some of his fellow countrymen, and the fact the gun owner gets murdered by a cop acting on exigent circumstances makes it a justified deadly shooting.
SWATting is attempted murder. A SWATting that gets someone killed is murder.
I was thinking the same thing and that is exactly what it is.
actually, a SWATTER should be designated the prison b!tch and be sentenced to daily r@pe while in prison. Hell, do a reality show on it and the ratings will carry the day . . .
Maybe instead of spying on citizens more resources could be put into tracking down the perpetrators of these “hoaxes”… throw the book at the bastards.
Maybe when a few members of Moms Demand Action get their asses thrown in the slammer for 10 years for pulling this shit they will realize it is a really bad idea.
http://www.technobuffalo.com/2014/11/07/bungie-exec-swatted-wakes-up-to-police-helicopter-over-his-house/
It happened to a local video-game executive, presumably because of someone unhappy about the game Destiny or something. It blows my mind that there are people who find this entertaining.
I guess the best advice is to keep a low profile and don’t piss people off.
Mega-kudos to Captain Fish for calling the family before dropping the SWAT hammer…
But when you think about it, is the entirely logical and the appropriate tactical move given that the son inside the house was supposedly the caller. If it were real, he would certainly be expecting the police to show up and be watching/alert for them. Not like you’re going to surprise him busting in…Captain gave away nothing by calling and would have started the negotiations and drawing the son’s attention and get a better feel for what the situation was..
If our laws were rational, the perpetrator of the fraudulent call, who can often be found, would be charged with the same offense he or she claimed the victim of the SWAT had done. In this case it would be felony murder and he would be up for life without parole. Does the punishment fit the crime? Yes it does. One of the family members or even one of the cops (or more than one of each) could well have been killed. Then again, I think that large scale identity theft should be punished like cattle rustling and horse theft back in the Wild West days, with the execution carried out just as swiftly.
I feel the same way about car theft.
That car is a modern day horse. String ’em up.
And yes, the people who pull this SWATing crap should be doing time. Make some examples of a few of the little turds.
+ This.
Same argument. A car is an Everyman’s ambulance.
It doesn’t make sense to charge him with the same exact crime. In this case the charges (if the call was real) would have been something like murder of the girlfriend and kidnapping of the parents. If the girlfriend isn’t dead, murder charges won’t stick, and if the fraud caller never encountered the parents, he can’t have kidnapped them.
SWATing should be its own felony, somewhere between assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder. If anyone dies in the ensuing confusion, even if it’s grandma having a heart attack from the stress, there should be a felony murder charge as well, just like if somebody dies during the commission of a bank robbery.
Gamers don’t SWAT people, SJWs whose feelfeels have been hurt SWAT people.
Actually gamers SWAT gamers a lot. Look it up you’ll be surprised
IT is the same motive in either case though and that is cowardice and envy.
The gamer who as the offender is attempting murder out of pettiness. The SJW is doing so out of jealousy, hate, and fear of a man exercising his American right to defend themselves and protecting innocent life.
Has any SWATer been caught to date? Some here seem to believe they can be…
One year back:
15 Year Old Who “SWATTED” Gamer Convicted Of Domestic Terrorism; 25 Years To Life In Federal Prison
http://nationalreport.net/15-year-old-swatted-domestic-terrorism/
Boy, 16, charged with ‘swatting’ incidents near Barrie
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/05/27/16-year-old-charged-with-swatting-incident.html
Lizard Squad teen pleads guilty to 23 counts of swatting, false police reports
http://www.technobuffalo.com/2015/05/22/lizard-squad-teen-pleads-guilty-to-23-counts-of-swatting-false-police-reports/
Interesting, thanks.
The location of a cell phone 911 call can be determined fairly quickly, with reasonable accuracy, even with old, non-GPS phones. At the very least the 911 operator should check the call location while the 5-0 is enroute.
Methinks this could have been identified as a hoax pretty quickly.
I have wondered about that. A friend (who was in another part of the state) had a stroke and called 911 but couldn’t speak clearly enough to talk to the dispatcher, so I called 911 on their behalf (long story). I was told by the dispatcher I talked to that they didn’t have the technology to locate a caller on a cell phone. This was only a few years ago.
This is what a machine gun is for. Suppressive fire against a gang ( police) breaking into your home. Since a thompson or more modern MG is $12,000 or more I will opt for a slide fire AR15. Or an X Rail semi shotgun with 18 rounds of 12 gage. If the police ID themselves and are in uniform then I would greet them politely. Any and all hoax callers need to be procecuted and given hard time.
You forgot about the equipment you need to defeat their FB grenades, thermal imaging and other crap that they have and you probably don’t.
Your scenario plays out well against typical home invasion low-grade criminal scum but probably against the police it’s going to wind up with you in a body bag.
And it also makes the mistake of assuming SWAT teams’ arms will remain static. In reality, fighting a SWAT team, you are fighting the entirety of the US government complex. Kill the immediate attackers, and they’ll come back with mraps, then tanks, then Apaches, then heavy bombers………
Back your machine gun up with some warheads aimed at DC and surrounding areas, and you have a chance. Otherwise, all you’re doing is going about killing yourself in an annoyingly noisy manner.
You saying you wont just makes others have to push-back harder. Things balance with equal-pressure, not one-sided pressure.
Push back smarter. Not harder.
I don’t give a crap if you’re a quadraegic, PUSH -BACK, pop a vein out in your forehead, do something, at least feign dissatisfaction.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/dean-weingarten/man-shoots-oklahoma-police-chief-no-charges-filed/
You guys forget about this SWATing already?
Thanks. I tried and could not find it.
That means I don’t want them to respond to a legitimate 9-1-1 call, until I get a call-back. Hmm …
It’ll take them a half hour to respond to a legit call, so you haven’t lost very much.
Let’s change the procedures so the police HAS to SWAT the actual caller BEFORE SWATing anything. You call the police, you meet the police, fair enough?
Did the swat team cut a check to the homeowners for the broken door?
I know one thing, as long as innocent citizens are killed, the cops will just say how unfortunate and it’s too bad this is happening etc. But when they come to some guys house who doesn’t care if they are cops and all their command authority lawful orders don’t mean diddly squat and he opens fire on the cops and kills a few, well then the cops will change tactics and reevaluate things. It would make for an interesting trial to say the least.
You are entertaining a dangerous fantasy. These days SWAT guys are wearing full body armor and running automatic weapons. Good luck with “bagging a few” when they bust your door down.
I’m not entertaining anything. Maybe you should read what I said again. I said when they come to “some guys house who doesn’t care” I didn’t say my house and I didn’t say that’s what I intend to do.
And the cops do get killed doing this crap, so all their tactics and body armor doesn’t mean dick when they are shot and killed.
Body armor doesn’t stop centerfire FMJ, as I am led to believe. Hence the attempted ATF ban on M855.
I’m not sure, but if they have modern plated backing up the kevlar, then I think it would. The M855 will defeat the soft, everyday wear stuff.
SWAT use plate carriers with lvl III+/IV plates, NOTHING a home owner has is going thru that. Only covers their vitals of course but just pointing it out
I know a guy with a bolt action .50 BMG… Not your average homeowner weapon I grant you.
I thought drav was exaggerating, so I looked up III+, and it appears they’re claiming it will withstand WWII .30 cal AP, which is my standard for high penetration rounds available to the common citizen.
Of course that’s just the plate carrier, the rest of the guy isn’t hardened to that level.
I don’t know for sure, and I don’t want to find out the hard way, but I had one call where we had to arrest a suicidal guy who had threatened to kill his wife, and he liked to hunt big game in Alaska. One of the rifles he had was a .30-378 Weatherby, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the right bullet in that gun would zip right through a plate.
Fortunately, we talked him out.
.243 win from 55gr all the way up to 90gr will easily wander through level III+/IV plate. varmint round indeed.
“Good luck with “bagging a few” when they bust your door down.”
That’s why because G.Gordon Liddy told his radio show’s listeners to shoot LE in the head because they are probably wearing body armor.
http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/liddys-lethal-advice/
Ok so cop proof the house. Good tip, chicken wire over the windows with a tray of water beneath for the tear gas, iron bars over everything, high concrete walls. . . Wait, that sounds like something els. Oh, I get it, you’re saying we need to fight cops at their house.
Check.
We had a case in central Texas last year where a homeowner opened fire on an entry team, killing one of the officers, as I recall. He argued that the police never identified themselves, so he was just defending himself. They might have been at the wrong house, too. Anyway, he got off, but I don’t recall whether that was at trial or with the grand jury.
That’s not a good bedtime story. God help the familys of the blue team that don’t make it home. Way bad scenario both ways, point should be to prevent the need for force on force. However, part off that has to be the promise of it if and when the people you are paying (maybe not enough) to protect you, no longer view you as the protected. Lot’s of argument here like a hundred or better miles from my house there’s still some missing Mexican students. It likely happens slightly evrywhere. It just also likely gets that way when people don’t respond, and part of that response is the initial promise to.
Plus “I will not pay to raise up an army against myself” [TERMS, J.M. Thomas, R., 2012].
It’s called “Cordon and Search”. Establish a perimeter, understand the situation, only kick the door in if necessary. The military’s only been doing it for 20 years (first time I ran into it was Bosnia).
Anyone from law enforcement able to comment on options for even a cursory reconnaissance of the building’s interior before kicking the door down? Are the SWAT guys unable to use a few of these drones and wiretaps that the NSA is using in lieu of internet dating?
I’m no expert, but it seems like a good idea to look before you leap regardless of whether the threat is real or imagined. These guys are already stressed enough to regularly fail at reading street addresses. A lot of these raids seem to go wrong because the first guy through the door can’t tell a cradle from a claymore.
There are lots of better options than stack up and breach. And in this case the SWAT team availed themself of them. All things considered, it went down Ok.
It’s when the (insert department that has no need for SWAT here) Elite SWAT operators get all amped up on adrenaline and start kicking doors open in the wee hours of the morning that things tend to go sideways.
I always figured that their entry methodology grew out of the original intention of the “No Knock” warrant; securing evidence of drug activity before the suspects could flush or otherwise dispose of the contraband. Am I mistaken?
Originally SWAT was only supposed to be for hostage rescue. Using them to serve warrants grew out of mission creep from the war on drugs and the increasing use of forfeiture to fund law enforcement. Think about what would have happened if police chiefs had gone to city leaders and said, “We need a specially trained and equipped team that will be assigned kick in doors in the middle of the night based on suspected criminal activity so we can get more money to fund the department.” I can’t see that happening.
This is why OPSEC is important. So many wannabe YT gamer stars put their info out there or make themselves open to doxxing. Internet security should be a life skills course in school, along with how to manage a credit card and checking account.
you mean like registering a controversial “mother-based” anti-gun group by using your real home address and then getting upset when people call you at your home? Hey, Shannon is just a simple stay at home mother. #not
That last bit would be good ‘Knowledge’ problem is, fully enacted it’s another communistic libtard pfederal program worse than Obamacare, but by Pezidential Executive Order. Go to the Treasury.gov site or google ‘financial education initiative’ same old blue-staye (D)’s there.
Caller ID can be spoofed it’s easy with a smartphone and a cheap app.
Here is one of my other favorite sites I read. He was Swatted, they have caught one of the people involved. http://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/07/the-wheels-of-justice-turn-slowly/
A site that will scare you worst than a Congress and White House full of Democrats.
I’m confused. If the son was on the phone with the police and didn’t give the impression that he had killed his girlfriend and tied up his parents, why was SWAT sent in the first place?
The picture say “terrible prank.” No, this was a felony. A prank is filling a coworkers office with ballons. Like I tell my senior students “you say senior prank. The prosecutor says felony vandalism.” Big difference.
“It is important to know anyone can be “Swatted.” It is advised be careful with your personal information online.’
The official response is to blame the victim not the state sanctioned killers for being incompetent. If this was not about violent acts being committed on gun owners there would be something done.
Except that this happens to non-gunowners, too.
They’re not incompetent. Just doing their job, as the state pays them to.
Maybe it’s time to put the brakes on the internet, which enables this crap. (He raises a white flag from his under computer table bunker and screams for mercy.)
No need to to restricting everyone’s Constitutional rights, just because someone abuses his use of an inanimate object.
Just align the incentives properly and everything will work out. If cops can play Dirty Harry without the slightest due diligence and consequences, then this will continue. It’s quick-to-shoot SWAT teams that are the problem here. The pranksters are just exploiting it.
I just want to be able to legally purchase claymores. Problem solved (for the homeowner).
…. Drop the mike ?
^This, except for pesky pre-meditation laws you shall have them.?
That certainly would solve alot of problems. 😀
That’s funny. Kidding aside, you raise a good point. In most states, if not all, it’s illegal do set up traps for humans on your property. Trespassers shouldn’t be there in the first place, but you’re still not allowed to dig punji traps around your house. Well, I suppose you can, just expect some legal trouble should a burglar fall into one.
It’s not a punji-trap. It’s my buried sharp stick collection, and they were trying to steal it with their feet.
“If you think you could be a target – call police and give them your phone number. Tell them to call your house first before responding to a violent 911 call coming from your home.”
Ridiculous. Are we expected to believe the cops are keeping a list of “likely SWATting targets” and double-checking every 911 call against this list before responding?
… If you think you could be a target – call police and give them your phone number. Tell them to call your house first before responding to a violent 911 call coming from your home.
Really? So, I’m going to initiate contact with police officers and say my address and phone number in the same sentence of violent crime?
“This guy wants us to CALL him before we stop him from murdering his family!” Yea, that will work well.
The way this stops is the Police treat this as the FELONY offense that it is – and track down the Felon who falsified information to the Police and arrest them and charge them and put their asses in prison where they belong, all while they fend off a wicked lawsuit at the same time.
I think the cops should “go Baltimore” on these calls. Swatting will disappear because the cops won”t come out and it will give you cop haters a chance to say how useless the cops are when they fail to respond to something real. It’s a win-win,
I will take that deal any day of the week, and it is a good step to getting back to being a civilized society. If I need an additional first responder I will be calling for fire rescue or an EMT. Cops are for filing insurance claims, criminal body removal, and preying on their fellow citizens.
+1
Well, since all the police are going to do is fill out a piece of paper describing (in exacting detail) how you and your family were raped and murdered by a group of thugs who kicked in your door at 2AM yelling, “Police, Police, Everyone Down”, then yes, High Speed. Go for it.
The police are great at paperwork. Cr@p at intervention. A real fight is over in seconds or minutes, not half hour.
Yep.
“Shit” is a reasonable term in this case. We have the progressive left anti-2A to thank for the fear of firearms and the creation therein of the SWATTING. These are the matters your president should speak about, but certainly will not.
At this point and before something does go way wrong, we need to show no mercy to the anti-2A movement for their direct involvement in the creation of SWATTING.
Gamers invented SEATing and made it big, not anti gunners. They are just following suit
I can’t for the life of my figure out why this ISN’T attempted murder.
“It is important to know anyone can be “Swatted.” It is advised be careful with your personal information online.”
Anyone who runs a small business has all of their information published on the Internet by the government. Nothing you can do to prevent it.
When you ask yourself WHY the hell the cops were going so slow when some psycho is busy murdering and raping a family? This… this bullshit right here. I hope they have the son of a bitch who crank called this and put him UNDER the goddamn jail. Reckless endangerment, Filing a false report. Inciting panic. Anything else a particularly vindictive DA can think of.
Avoid the problem: never use your real name in a forum, especially a gaming forum. Use caution as to where you do put your personal information on line. The cops aren’t really the bad guys here, but mostly they are techno illiterate so understand that from the outset. That doesn’t mean you don’t harden your domicile, Use doors that are well mounted and latch solidly, and a door stop that prevents battering ram access along with anti break in film on the windows that will cause flash bangs or gas grenades to bounce off. This protects you from all sorts of bad behavior on the part of anyone trying to force their way in and should provide amusing footage should it be necessary to mock (or sue) the local PD afterwards.
Swatting is one area where I would love legislators to go crazy and make it like equivalent to a C Felony. Not only are you putting people’s lives in danger but you are intentionally violating their 4th amendment rights by proxy and opening up whatever LEO’s respond to lawsuits. I wouldn’t mind seeing a repeat offender of this rot in jail for 10 years and I don’t think that is overkill.
But in general exercise PERSEC (personal security). Don’t post on social media or forums or whatever specific locations of where you are, don’t post pictures of things that might give away where you live, don’t post that you are going on vacation for exactly 7 days and don’t have someone to watch the house, don’t post, certain names, certain issues, etc. You can be as loose or as tight with PERSEC as you want but have some of it for sure. I was thinking about this today when I took some pictures and deciding which ones I wanted to put online, the ones showing my houses specific location or indicating something of that nature I didn’t post.
Hmm we could just get rid of SWAT teams altogether, somehow this nation survived for a couple hundred years without them. Now every po-dunk town has a team.
Aye, they shouldn’t even exist in a free society. They have no place amongst a free people.
Face ot too. “SWATTING” ain’t just a prank, cheated on spouses have used it, even divorce lawyers. ‘Cops’ have even used it today (somewhere) to establish the need to go play cop somewhere they could find justification otherwise. Sometimes it works out, and they get to piss on your back and call it rain. The problem is, cops deal all day with bad people, and even like-like-good-people-bad-people. Do that enough and every gets a little sour. That’s why beat cops have roll calls at the station every day. You have to re-get-your-mind-right every day or you slide off into Mad Max, except it’s the stupid civilians that you deal with every day, that are (have to be) entitled to get there first, or you can cram that badge.
Seriously, people, this would be a bloody non problem, were it not for a culture of law enforcement over reaction.
“First, do no harm” really ought to apply to cops as well. By far most of them are good people. Sending them into an unknown, possibly lethal situation based on a phone call, just so stupid dronelings can persist in pretending they don’t need to take primary responsibility for their own and theirs’ defense, is about as clear cut a sign of life in a totalitarian police state as you’ll ever see.
Just inform people that as of 1/1/16, if they call the cops screaming bloody murder, they should be prepared to offer up some pretty incontrovertible proof. Otherwise, they can deal with it themselves, and the cops will pick up the pieces and arrest any wrongdoers once the situation is calm enough to do so without risking harm to innocents. Then, it’s up to the legal system punish said wrongdoer, if in fact there is one, harshly enough to deter most from attempting anything similar in the future. In a free society, it is preferable for the police to let 1 million murders get away with it, than to flashbang one innocent kid. Of course, in totalitarian dystopias, things are obviously different.
Spot on.
The police should be attempting to determine the facts of the case before any entry occurs. The Police are not going to have a significant force present in much less than twenty minutes (the SWAT team will be much longer). At that point hostages are either dead, or you have time to establish communications. If the home owner says everything is fine, you have them come out, and then search the house (just in case) while several of officers can watch the residents (again, just in case). No broken door, little threat of shooting the wrong person, and the dog gets to live. The police would have done due diligence to protect and serve, answering the call while protecting the residents.
The problem is that the SWAT team storming the house has become the first and only choice of action, instead of a last resort, save the hostages action.
the day some clever psychopath fills an abandoned home with IED’s and then SWATS it, taking out a few dozen overzealous doorkickers is the day prudence becomes a tactic. perhaps a peak in the window or a phone call won’t be too much trouble. if it saves just one life, etc.
Gee, how about actually sending people who do this Swatting to prison on attempted murder?
“Someday a cop’s going to shoot an innocent or an innocent gun owner is going to shoot a cop”
That bridge has already been crossed.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/murder-charge-dropped-man-killed-cop-no-knock-raid/
If your domicile takes them several minutes to a few hours with heavy equipment (swar armored car, winch, haligan) to gain entry then this would never be a concern and you could sleep well. So just raise your shields to da max…
I would just like to note that Captain James T. Kirk beat the Kobayashi Maru scenario, so its not a no-win. — pushes glasses back up on nose —
See, this is the inevitable situation the POLICE creating in the Drug War with their storm-trooper armies.
A man is no longer King of his castle and can safely defend it, but trusting that every person kicking down his door is a criminal. By introducing this element, the police have made us *ALL* less safe.
Sounds like police are the ones who need to adapt, with better communication. If someone makes a claim such as this and everything seems normal when the police arrive, they should at least be prepared for the possibility that it may have been a prank call.
Of course I understand they have to take it seriously and come in with enough firepower. I think officers may need better briefing on the situations they’re put in as opposed to what seems to be a blitz response. Only the police can determine what it is they need to do in order to mitigate instances like this, but I don’t think it is going to stop so they need to come up with some way to flag calls that may not be real.
They need to do their jobs by investigating the facts, as best as they can ascertain them, instead of reaching for the low hanging fruit of anonymous (in some cases, faked identity in others) tips and assembling the goon squad. It should require more concrete information than just a phone call to violently breech a residence or business, guns drawn and adrenaline high.
IMHO, court rulings on “No Knock” were mistakes. Traditionally, hot pursuit and immediate danger were understood to not require a warrant for very limited, immediate action. In any other situation, there ought to be a warrant obtained with full due process. In light of well known SWATings and SWAT disasters, a simple telephone call or confidential informant statement ought not meet the threshold for invading a home. The fact that an immediately dangerous situation exists must be verified prior to any substantial action.
Kobayashi Maru is a term used in Star Trek to describe a
so-called “No Win” situation.
Kirk said he did not believe in a no-win situation.
However, Kobayashi Maru is actually a real Japanese term.
http://answers.wikia.com/wiki/What_does_kobayashi_maru_mean
Since this brings in the concept of the Japanese warrior to mind ( in directly) I will offer you the theory of what is the idea of “winning” to the Samurai.
What WE in the West consider a Winning is a little different concept of winning
to a Japanese warrior.
Winning to the Japanese warrior does not entirely mean that you are alive and your opponent is dead.
That is only part of the picture.
Winning is not just you getting out of the situation alive.
Winning is ensuring that your opponent is dead.
Miomoto Musashi, one of the greatest Japanese swordsmen
who wrote about Japanese warrior strategy.
He said that between two opposing swordsmen
(in all things being equal) there are THREE possible scenarios:
1. You died. Your opponent Lives.
2 You survive. Your opponent dies.
3. you both manage to deal a lethal sword blow at the same time,
killing each other. You both die.
So among those Three situations you had a 66% chance of dying.
Since you must accept the fact that in all likelihood that you are
going to die then you only possible success is TO NOT HESITATE.
Your greatest chance of “winning” is NOT TO HOLD BACK.
ATTACK YOUR ENEMY WITH FULL FORCE.
he who hesitates LOOSES.
So in the case of getting SWATTED all things are NOT equal and
the odds of you surviving are even smaller.
Surprise and an overwhelming force are against you.
So you are even more likely to die.
But no matter.
If your strategy is to “win” then all the more reason is to prepare for
Counter warfare, Siege warfare and Guerrilla warfare.
Head on.
Never go toe-to-toe, but if you do take out as many of the front row as possible.
Siege warfare.
And do the experts in Siege warfare do?
A tiered layers of defense.
Guerilla warfare.
Booby traps. Mines. Anti=personnel devices. IEDs.
DRAW THEM IN AND HIT THEM FROM BEHIND.
Take out the leaders, first.
The object of “winning” is NOT for you to survive.
The object of “winning” was for you to
KILL AS MANY OF YOUR OPPONENTS AS POSSIBLE.
If you manage to survive the battle.
Bide your time.
Plan for revenge.
Create a situation based on your own terms.
Make a trap and draw in as many as possible.
Eliminate them all.
Take no prisoners.
If this had been my child, that SWAT team would have been eliminated by now.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/infant-responsible-grenade-thrown-face/
another internet tough guy.
There’s a good reason why the Japanese lost WWII, and lost badly. The Japanese “way of the warrior” is the way of the side that gets completely crushed against a competent opponent.
Aaron said:
“There’s a good reason why the Japanese lost WWII, and lost badly. The Japanese “way of the warrior” is the way of the side that gets completely crushed against a competent opponent.”
You are not a very good student of world history, much less of Japanese history.
The Japanese “lost” for various reasons but NOT for their Warrior Philosophy.
The Japanese were not fighting just one competent opponent.
They had three.
Not only were the Japanese were at war with just about everyone in the Pacific.
They were also fighting against the Chinese and the Russians as well.
the Japanese, however, had already wiped out the British in the Pacific.
If the Japanese were not fighting the Russians and Chinese, I doubt
the Pacific would be controlled by the Americans today.
It is common knowledge the Japanese missed their opportunity to take out Aircraft
carriers in Hawaii.
But what is NOT common knowledge is that the Americans had all their Pacific submarines parked in another harbor just neat Pear Harbor.
They may or may not have know about them or did not consider them a viable threat.
However, the Japanese missed those subs.
What is also not taught in WWII history classes is that it was the American submarines that sunk more tonnage of Japanese ships than anything.
If the Japanese had gotten the carriers and the submarines, the California coast would have been a Japanese coast.
Ponder the consequences of that for a moment.
They were already stretched out pretty thin
by taking out the ENTIRE Pacific ocean.
No small effort for a group of little islands.
They were a vastly smaller country than the USA
and did not have the resources like oil and potential war industry.
Yes, the Americans built the A Bomb first.
But they were competing not only with the German A-bomb effort but the
Japanese A-bomb program as well.
The Japanese had their own A-bomb effort.
There is speculation they may have already built an A-bomb in their occupied
territory in what is now North Korea.
That is a secret that will never be revealed.
What has been recently discovered is that they were in the very act of delivering that weapon in a submarine bound for the US before it was sunk.
What if’s.
So it was not the fact that the Japanese had the better Warrior philosophy that caused them to lose the war.
The American “civil war” lasted for only 4 years.
The Japanese were in a perpetual civil war for hundreds of years.
They were students of war.
They did not develop their warrior philosophy overnight.
You still missed my point about the differences between warrior philosophies.
Aaron,
if I may kindly suggest that you read two excellent books on strategy.
One is called “The Art of War” written by a Chinese advisor named Sun Tsu.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
The other book is called
“the Book of Five Rings”
written by the famous swordsman Miyamoto Musashi
Supposedly he was NEVER defeated in a sword fight.
I suggest you the version translated by Cleary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings
Thank you for commenting.
The Japanese have beat us. what do you drive? Hell, they even make a better Winchester.
Well, this one ended better than some others have ended.
The police need to refrain from kicking in doors unless they are really, really sure they need to. In this case they refrained.
I pretty much home carry 100% of the time now, the thought “what if?” has crossed my mind a few times. From all the “I stand with Wendy” yard signs in my neighborhood last year, I get the idea my neighbors don’t think the same about gun ownership and personal liberty as I do. Occasionally I wonder if they would call the cops if/when I forget to drape my shirt over my gun when I have to run out to the garage for something or when we cook out on the back porch, or maybe I forget to draw the binds when I am doing dry fire practice in the living room.
@Tex300BLK I understand your concerns.
But I would not hide your world view from you neighbors, nor the fact that you are 100% carry.
Make nice with them first.
Before you spring it on them let them know you are not a psycho and that you are not a danger to them.
Let them know you are not the stereotype of of the gun nut they project on us.
You are not a hero, but if they ever need your help you would be at their door
at a moments notice. (If that’s true).
Let them see you and not your gun.
If they can see passed the Transexuality of
Bruce Jenner or rather Caitlyn
can’t they see passed your gun for who you really are?
I know I dreaming.
Let them know you are going to be brave and just
“come out” and tell them,
“I am Tex300BLK and I carry a gun”.
Be brave.
I’m with you 100%.
why does this article say it’s only a matter of time before swatting leads to some bad shit?
It’s already happened.
http://nationalreport.net/15-year-old-swatted-domestic-terrorism/
Interesting. Who was providing said training, and who were the trainees? Military, civilian police/security, or civilian? Just curious.
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