As Dan reported a little earlier, presumptive GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump announced on Twitter today that he was going to meet with the NRA “to discuss ways to block people on terrorism watch lists or no fly lists from buying guns.” The NRA has issued its own statement on the forthcoming meeting:
We are happy to meet with Donald Trump. The NRA’s position on this issue has not changed. The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist. At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed. That has been the position of Sen. John Cornyn (R.-Tex.) and a majority of the U.S. Senate. Sadly, President Obama and his allies would prefer to play politics with this issue.
The “news” organization Reuters immediately jumped on this, implying that it represented a sea change in the NRA’s position:
BREAKING: NRA says anyone on terrorism watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed.
— Reuters Top News (@Reuters) June 15, 2016
Dana Loesch and Ed Morrissey claim the NRA is being consistent. But Reuters is right. A gun right delayed is a gun right denied. The NRA is putting its seal of approval on suspending an American’s gun rights without due process, arguing that it’s OK because it’s only temporary, and due process will be retroactively applied.
How long would the “temporary ban” for Americans on the government’s secret, unaccountable Terrorist Watch List last? What would be the process for appealing and “un-suspending” the “temporary” ban? Does the “temporary ban” extend to firearms already in a suspect’s possession?
There’s no putting lipstick on this pig. Make no mistake: this is the NRA caving to pressure from gun control advocates and, presumably, the Republican presidential candidate they recently endorsed.
Suspect you are right on this.
Sometimes the politics of an issue requires leading the public around in a circle to get them lined up and make them understand. The general populace just isn’t as knowledgeable as the average TTAG reader.
Bingo!
The “lists” some of which I am sure no one knows about will need to have the light of day shined upon them for debate. All of a sudden we need to know who is on the list. Are you?
Hey wait my mom showed up on the list WTH?
All of a sudden it brings to the forefront exactly what the government is doing. Now they will say, wait a minute, you can’t just stick someone on a list and not tell them. BAM! Now Due process has to be put in place.
Those secret lists aren’t so secret anymore.
Then of course all the people on the list go to court, like what criteria was used to put me on the list, well now all that has to come to light too.
Oh gee look at all the NRA members on the list. How did they get there?
See once you put these secret databases under scrutiny, they will collapse.
Exactly. Does anyone remember the Patriot Act? Does anyone remember what happened? It was a well-intentioned document designed protect us from terrorism. We entrusted our freedom to a bunch of bureaucrats, and in return, they wiped the Fourth Amendment clean off the map. Rest assured, this will be no different.
We should not be spending our time posting comments here. Now is the time to write letters to the NRA and explain to them why this is a spectacularly horrible idea.
This. Whatever power the state is allowed, they will expand in any way they can. They are lying, will lie, and will always lie.
This is not allowed by the constitution, thus it is not allowed.
No doubt they will do it anyway.
The 4th is just about gone. The 1st is under assault. So is the 2nd. So why not obliterate the 6th too?
“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.”
There was and is nothing ‘well intentioned’ about the un patriot act.
It was sitting there, prepared and waiting on an appropriate created-crisis to roll it out and abrogate mass swaths of the BOR and Constitution.
It was a planned step in the globalist-collectivist cabal’s ultimate goal of totally subverting the constitutional republic in the forced integration of once-sovereign America into a global order.
It is as simple as that.
The Patriot Act has a history going back fifty years. Nothing well intentioned about it. Trace its routes back through the defense resources act all the way to the Nixon administration.
The ACLU has been fighting this list for 5 years. Might be more appropriate to ask Anti-Gun Dems, “assume President Trump decides to put all Syrian Refugees on the watch list, should there be due process then?”
Finally. Perhaps now we can actually solve this problem and not throw the baby in the blender.
No. That baby will go straight into the blender. Give it a few years, and that baby will be a smooth, pink purée. It’s guaranteed. I promise you that.
What’s to stop them from just adding the names of all 300 million firearms owners on a watch list?
The FBI already is informed when someone on a watch list attempts to purchase a firearm. FBI director Comey testified to the Senate Judiciary Hearing in December 2015 that they are notified and investigate: http://www.mrctv.org/videos/fbi-director-fbi-alerted-when-someone-no-fly-list-tries-buy-gun
None of the recent terror attacks were perpetrated by anyone that was on a terror watch list at the time of the attack.
This is true. And “being investigated by the FBI” doesn’t qualify either. I was investigated by the FBI, as is every other person who applies for any sort of government clearance (Secret – Special Compartmented in my case). Even Hillary is being investigated by the FBI.
Then there is that little thing about “…shall not be infringed.”
Didnt members of the whitehouse staff and US DOJ call the NRA a terrorist organization?….. Would not that make us NRA members terrorists?…. Way to go NRA…. Thanks for nothing
Unfortunately, the state controlled media are leaving the after due process aspect of the NRA and maybe Trump (?) out of their coverage to mislead the public like they do on NRA members support for universal background checks.
They have to. If the left realized the size of the constitutional violation their representatives were pushing the Democrats would get hammered in the election.
And this is why they want to do it as soon as possible, to keep it as far away from the election as they can. Pushing gun control will hurt HRC, they will try and do this as quickly and as quietly as they can do it.
The NRA caving on this is only helping HRC.
So long as there is a ticking clock on the “investigation” and reparations for people who are cleared this sounds fine.
I agree. No way Omar should have been able to buy a gun. Sorry, I’m not an absolutist. Yes, I know he could have used gasoline and a match. Omar didn’t need to be able to legally purchase a firearm. Yes, I know any proposed system would get abused, which is why no system is in place. Bad deal all around.
Normally, I am an absolutist which is why I am in favor of severe statutory penalties if this system IS abused. Personal liability for damages under USC 1983 sounds like a good start.
Serge, you just trusted the Obama administration with the ability to deny your basic rights. You just gave them up.
Check your American card at the new wall. You won’t be needing it.
Like I said… Personal liability.
Personal liability…sounds great in principle. In practice, it won’t be enforced. At this stage in US history, the law is to control the peasants, not the DC ruling class. Criminals don’t obey the law.
That’s a nice thought and all. But the reality is: short of gross, universal infringement of the rights of the law-abiding, there is absolutely nothing the government can do, through the mere passage of laws, to prevent anyone from doing anything – including preventing a terrorist from obtaining firearms.
Laws only serve to compel and to constrain the law-abiding – such as all the law-abiding people who lawfully were unarmed at the nightclub targeted by a terrorist, because Florida law designated such an establishment as a gun-free zone.
Yep. The thing about laws is that they are not edicts on what someone can or can’t do. No, they are specific consequences for the violation of rules that society (or at least society’s political masters) have agreed upon. In other words, the entire concept of law is to retroactively punish people for doing wrong, NOT to prevent them from doing wrong in the first place (yes, there is a deterrent effect, but that’s merely a side effect of the retroactive punishment). In other words, legal consequences (the practical definition of the institution of law) can only be applied AFTER THE FACT. As such, terrorists and crazies (who often have no intention of surviving their attacks, and thus will face no legal consequences) will, at most, be mildly inconvenienced by laws.
Keep in mind, he worked for a large private security contractor, and had security clearances and access to hardware beyond what a normal American would have.
Omar was not a prohibited person. Not only did the FBI cease both investigations against him, he was able to obtain and maintain a private security license which allowed him to carry inside of federal buildings and court houses. To be clear, the NRA and Trump now support Obama and Hilary’s “no fly no buy” ban, where the same Justice department who brought us Fast & Furious can arbitrarily add names to a secret list and that nullifies your 2nd and 5th amendment rights? But don’t worry because you can hire a lawyer and take on the army of over 113,000 employees at the Justice department, and a Federal judge likely appointed by President Obama to prove you’re NOT guilty of a future crime… If you honestly think this is a good idea then you probably think Benghazi was caused by a Youtube video.
Agree. Though, one might argue that the FBI should not have stopped the investigation. But if he broke no laws, he broke no laws.
So, what about the option of the FBI being notified when someone they have had under investigation buys a gun? Then, it does not delay the right to purchase, but gives the FBI a heads up? Actually, that probably wouldn’t work either. We have all seen how well the gov handles data-bases. Could expect a bunch of false alarms as well as a bunch of misses.
” . . .where the same Justice department who brought us Fast & Furious can arbitrarily add names to a secret list and that nullifies your 2nd and 5th amendment rights?”
You nailed it. A government “watch list” is the perfect tool to punish “enemies of the state” who have the temerity to challenge closely held progressive beliefs. We already have DHS holding strategy sessions where they equate “right wing extremists” (that’s us folks) with radical Muslim terrorists. Similarly, we have our own government talking about making it a crime to criticize climate change ideology. Should we really believe that a government which holds these kinds of beliefs wouldn’t intentionally use such a list to harass and silence it’s opponents? If anybody can be put on such a list without due process, if government can confiscate guns from people placed on the list, then our rights have been abridged by our own government. I’m profoundly disappointed in the NRA for supporting this usurpation of our constitutional rights..
I don’t understand how you push for a bill that puts anyone on the terrorist watch list into the no 2A zone; when many of the very anti gun people you are fighting actively call the NRA and its members terrorists.
This.
How many times has the NRA membership been called ‘terrorist?’ Be a cool project for someone to compile some screenshots of tweets to that effect.
Then…why support this, NRA? Can’t you see how this gets played long game?
It is not just moonbat tumblrinas doing it, we have congressmen and women doing it so it is not like this is an unfounded fear. Any bill like they are talking about would need a lot of safeguards to make sure this does not turn into IRS 2.0.
You do realize that any “safeguards” are utterly meaningless when the U.S. Attorney General, President of the United States, and other members of the Executive branch simply ignore subpoenas and court orders, right?
Saying it another way, who enforces these “safeguards” against the enforcers?
I believe the founders said it was .69 caliber ball, but nowadays the answer would be .308 Winchester.
Because if we lose the short game, the long game is irrelevant. By putting in strict due process provisions, we hold the liberals to a standard they can’t possibly match.
Good point Serge. Looking back, I think the NRA’s Good Guy With A Gun campaign after Newton really helped prevent a lot of what we thought was inevitable legislation from occurring.
No, they’re holding you to a standard you can’t possibly match. How exactly does one prove that he’s not going to commit a terrorist act in the future? Will it be a battle of the fortune tellers? Tea leaves versus tarot cards? Jesus wept.
You assume the state is going to do what they say they will.
They will not.
This is just like ‘keep your doctor, keep your plan.’
Why should anyone believe any of their promises?
They cannot even work within ‘shall not be infringed’. You think some 2000 page super fun named ‘no fly no buy’ bill is going to do what they promise?
Care to buy a bridge?
@308: He bought one long ago from Trump. Now that Trump has stabbed us in the back (as anyone paying attention actually expected), he’s having to either suck up to what Trump is doing to us, or maybe admit he was wrong. Can’t have the latter.
“he’s having to either suck up to what Trump is doing to us”
I have no illusions about Trump being the king of integrity and principle, and think most everyone knows this. That said, he is playing politics. This is all talk at this point, we are going to have to see what comes of it.
I should think however that the NRA would know better how giving the proggies an inch usually doesn’t work out too well.
The point is that if we force the FBI to make a case in… say… three weeks or be liable for damages, the bill will die horribly.
“The point is that if we force the FBI to make a case in… say… three weeks or be liable for damages, the bill will die horribly.”
Serge makes a compelling case on this.
The Left loves regulations like women love credit cards.
Hand them the rope to hang them with…
100% this. Due Process is the natural enemy of the modern progressive statist.
“Due Process is the natural enemy of the modern progressive statist.”
Not if the statists are the ones writing the standards and definition of “due process”.
Due process is far too inefficient. If you want to make half the population into criminals, you have to cut some corners.
Whatever it takes to preempt Hillary and keep her out of the presidency needs to be done.
Assuming there is some sort of due process in place , if you were one of the many unlucky ones to mistakenly end up in that list, couldn’t buying a gun potentially jump start an investigation to get you off said list?
Or attempting to buy a gun while you’re (unknowingly) on double-secret probation might be used as evidence of “intent” to push for indictment.
Possibly. After the FBI has dug through every aspect of your entire family’s lives. Never mind what your employer, friends and neighbors happen to think during the months of investigation. What if the media gets your name and pastes it all over the screen. Just a little humiliation to get your name off a list to which it was falsely included.
Who defines “terrorists?” Who controls these “lists?” Who controls, minutely and at every level, this “due process” so many are in love with. Who defines “due process?” Are any of us truly happy with the way that usually turns out? Do you truly trust these cretins to do any of this honestly, within the realm of reality and natural rights?
If so, I have a nice bridge in New York I’d like to sell you.
Indeed.
Recall the DHS booklet from shortly after Obama’s election, detailing “right-wing extremists”, and including as potential extremists/terrorists anyone who spoke of upholding the constitution (among many other benign and laudable things).
Recall the Obama IRS targeting conservative groups for audits.
Recall candidate Obama slandering the vast majority of Americans is “bitterly clinging” to guns and religion.
Add to your list of recollections the number of times, just in recent years (though it goes WAY back), that folks have argued the point of the ‘seriousness of the charge’ is what matters.
How many people have said, “Well, they would not be being investigated if .gov did not know they are up to something”? The Bundy fall-out comes to mind as well…so many were quick to align with BLM’s side JUST because BLM is part of the government (any opposition MUST be example of sedition…or something).
I also agree. Unfortunately, the politicians have royally fuckked up any way to put a process in place to keep Omar from legally purchasing a firearm.
Please: detail and describe such a process, that would be lawful and constitutional? Also: please explain how, even if such a process were successful in keeping Omar from legally purchasing a firearm, it would keep Omar from obtaining a firearm through other means?
Please explain how such Utopian fantasy would accomplish anything other than to infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding.
“Chip Bennett says:
June 15, 2016 at 15:39
[…]
Please: detail and describe such a process, that would be lawful and constitutional?”
Oh indeed, and what’s worse, let’s say that a process for this is created and works… the next terrorist will simply adjust to the new process, and get himself a gun through this new magic government checklist.
Or worst case, they will just smuggle one in through the numerous holes in our borders. Or they will just buy a CNC machine and build themselves one. Or they will use gasoline, or, etc. etc. etc. unendingly.
Meanwhile, our constitution is just so much toilet paper and the state is untethered and unleashed.
Which all works just fine for the connected and rich, who all have full security, to keep us dirt people away from them.
Isn’t this all just great?
This whole thing is an amorphous blob. I will never understand liberals that decry the massive overreach of the Patriot Act and then push for a secret list with no oversight that can strip citizens of a basic constitutional right, without considering that another right is always next on the agenda. This will be just like the no fly list – if you get put on it mistakenly, you will spend your entire financial future and 5-10 years attempting to prove your innocence. Our government is making predictive judgments based on broad inclusion standards that are unconstitutionally vague. If the government is going to predict that Americans pose a threat, blacklist them, suspend their rights under the 2nd and 14th amendments, then that’s even more reason to require some actual due process as a fundamental safeguard.
Behind every obvious double standard is an implicit single standard. In this case, the left simply does not consider the right to own or carry guns to be a civil, individual right. I’m hoping the nra is playing a deeper game than Waynes words appear at face value, but who knows.
Honestly, I think that with the authorities and courts turning the second amendment into a dead letter for decades, the best stopgap against gun control is anything that makes it unenforceable.
Practically, right now this means having the ability and equipment to build your own.
Recall Obama!
https://www.aclu.org/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-domestic-terrorism
Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover “”domestic,”” as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act “”dangerous to human life”” that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism.
the answer is, of course, unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats. since the law is already in place they can simply “update” the wording to include whatever they want to without any accountability. the key word you have to look at above is “coercion” since that word in particular can be used to label acts of civil disobedience. thus by doing things like protesting against gun bans, or having bumper stickers of the “cold dead hands” or “molon labe” variety you are attempting to coerce american citizens and politicians. thus you are a terrorist. And once you are on the list your civil rights can be suspended indefinitely (they have already effectively denied your your first and second amendment rights, so why bother with the rest of them). unless there is a time limit on the investigation, a reasonable one (24 hours comes to mind since that is the time police can hold you without charging you). and a very specific and simple process for redress from the government (something simple enough for the average citizen to do without the intervention of a lawyer, and with its own time limit for the government to respond) this proposal should not even be considered.
That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer – Benjamin Franklin
PS: lets not forget that the shooter was already the subject of a federal investigation, and was cleared by the same agencies that would presumably be in charge of future investigations
“PS: lets not forget that the shooter was already the subject of a federal investigation, and was cleared by the same agencies that would presumably be in charge of future investigations”
Lets be honest here. Obama came in and told the Justice Dept to treat these cases as criminal cases and to not treat them like they were. They have to find evidence of a crime or conspiracy to commit a crime to continue their investigation. They no longer could keep the file open and continue to monitor these people as a threat.
“At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed.”
That’s pretty much the opposite of:
“Trump and NRA announces that their position is that suspected terrorists can have their ability to legally acquire weapons suspended after due process.”
Nope; I disagree. No due process, no probable cause = no denial of exercise of constitutionally protected rights.
If the fed.gov has probable cause that someone is a terrorist, then arrest that person. Otherwise, even those on the terror watchlist enjoy the presumption of innocence.
That said: I could consider an argument that anyone on the terror watchlist who undergoes a background check be flagged for further investigation/action by the feds. But the sale should not be delayed/denied.
I am utterly unapologetic that I do not trust the government with a double-secret probation blacklist.
“That said: I could consider an argument that anyone on the terror watchlist who undergoes a background check be flagged for further investigation/action by the feds. But the sale should not be delayed/denied.”
This is what should be done. I am vehemently opposed to the “No Fly No Buy” scheme. because that is what it is. A scam. Remember, they believe that strict constitutionalists are terrorists in waiting as well and would love to abuse this to deny them their 2A, 4A, and 5A rights. No Fly-No Buy violates all three of those amendments.
The no fly list alone should not exist!
agreed
Mecha75 finally stated it: the potential for fedzilla to use this list against political opponents is too great. And, as I stated above, we absolutely cannot trust fedzilla to keep itself in check when the U.S. Attorney General and the President of the United States ignore subpoenas and court orders — without any consequences I might add.
#weareallfucked2016
I hope the NRA doesn’t sell their membership list because the progressives will add all of us to the no fly list.
Who is “us?” Done us have said for s number of years that the NRA is no friend to liberty. You all said we were paranoid, of idiots, or some other nonsense.
Now that it’s in front of us I see most just saying the NRA is playing the long game.
The long game got us the GCA
NRA blinked.
What was that thing people say about ‘a right delayed’?
The NRA has learned nothing apparently. Playing ball with our rights will lead no where good.
Balaam just fell off his talking donkey.
None of the clowns in question are our Founding Fathers.
A new gun-rights organization is in order, one that supports gun-rights.
The NRA is a suspected terrorist group. Nice going wayne, betcha wish you had another hand so you could handcuff all three to your ankles?
TTAG practice too much on clickbait in headlines.
The NRA is A Terrorist Organization http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/10/robert-farago/stasi-name-the-nra-to-state-depts-list-of-terrorist-organizations/
NRA Endorses “No Fly – No Buy” Gun Sales “Delay” for Suspected Terrorists
This is smart move. I just wish they would have made it more public before the attack so I would have been left on the dems lap just once.
How smart? it clearly violates the 5th Amendment. But it is okay with you to have a “little violation”? That is smart?
“No person shall be … nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”
It’s smart because it appears to the public that Trump can get the NRA to come to the table. The public is thinking with their emotions right now. Many are demanding something be done and they have seen that Obama can’t do it. Enter Trump and the NRA who “introduces” this new, fancy, this will fix everything law. The truth of the matter is it has always been around. I have friends that always get delayed because they have a common last name. The FBI gets 72 hours and then a decision must be rendered. If a decision cannot be made in 72 hours then they proceed anyway.
It’s like a toddler: toddler wants chicken nuggets, you have pot roast fixed, you put the pot roast down in front of them and tell them it’s chicken nuggets, toddler thinks they won even though they didn’t get anything new just something that was already there.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/cornyn-feinstein-in-talks-to-find-gun-control-compromise/article/2594003
Demoncrats want a complete ban on gun ownership or possession by individuals not part of a police agency or military. The only compromise position possible is, “Ok”.
Demoncrats control all branches of government, a long held goal. There is no turning back.
That’s a valid point, and I honestly hope you’re right. I hope this just a false flag to stifle the anti-gun crying episode.
“It’s like a toddler: toddler wants chicken nuggets, you have pot roast fixed, you put the pot roast down in front of them and tell them it’s chicken nuggets, toddler thinks they won “
And right here, folks, we have in a nice little metaphor why we lose with stuff like this.
What the HELL kind of parenting is this? Who does this?
When my children were toddlers, they got for dinner what we gave them. They did not make demands. If they refused to eat what we gave, they stayed hungry.
Sometimes, we asked what they wanted.
We never, not once, EVER gave them something they did not want and told them the lie that it was what they did want. This is “Special Snowflake Breeding 1-0-freaking-1.”
Geez. Babying everyone one like this is DESTROYING our nation. This is just plain nuts.
But, if this sort of thing is going on, I guess a lot of other stuff is coming into clearly focus.
And in the meantime, maybe, just maybe, you consider the possibility that YOU are the toddler being told that shit sandwich in front of you is your beloved chicken nuggets.
They, the Left, are playing you (and the NRA) for a fool if you think for one minute they are discussing any of this in good faith.
I agree-this sucks.
But I’m wondering if the smart political minds at the NRA see this as a way to head off a steamrolling political wave of more extreme gun control. A way to take a little wind out of the Democrats’ sails as we get closer to Election Day. Otherwise the Dems will do nothing but beat the “NRA Terrorists” drum as a fundraising message.
If just once the NRA was half as tough as the Teamsters, they’d be worth the cost of admission.
The 2nd Amendment means “Do not Touch” and “Don’t Tread on Me” the understood “OR” part is “I’ll put your skull on a pole”.
I like this, I get the first skull.
How are the teamsters doing right now?
Please explain how the NRA’s dropping their drawers, bending over, and handing the anti-gunners a jar of Vaseline heads off a steamrolling political wave of more extreme gun control. Giving our enemies small victories only encourages them.
Hillary, DiFi and company can’t stand anything that even looks like due process. So I don’t think anything has a snowballs chance of actually passing. Especially because if she had to thank the NRA for supporting something her head would explode.
So this might turn out to be political posturing. Feinstein and company won’t let it pass and the NRA gets to say “gee, Democrats, we had a plan to keep guns from terrorists but you blocked it.”
Give it a few days to shake out.
Come on, man. No democrat is going to thumb their nose at this. They will happily jump on the chance to push this through congress without any hesitation, because they know that if a policy like this is in place, all they need for all-out gun control is merely to manipulate the criteria for what constitutes a “terrorist.”
I think this one is without any lubricant.
Such restrictions would just have lengthened the terrorist’s lead time to implementation of his attack.
The location was already a “gun free” zone due to its open container on-premises consumption alcohol sales.
This is just a back-door method of providing the feds with a way to prevent the members of an “enemies list” from getting firearms.
You see how well the feds work with “enemies lists” when it comes to the IRS, right? And who is on this “enemies list” and how they have no way of getting off of that “enemies list”.
Support the GOA and JPFO.
I have a Florida CC license. I can go into an establishment that serves alcohol with it. provided that the serving of alcohol is not the main purpose of the establishment. What that means is that I can go to TGI Fridays and sit in a booth with my gun concealed on my person and NOT break the law. What I cannot do is go up to the bar, in the same establishment, and have a seat. Night Clubs like Pulse are treated as Bars for the purpose of the law.
Yes, why wouldn’t his wife not just straw purchase the guns? She helped him case several places and sounds like she might be charged because she had knowledge of the attacks before hand.
Literally, every condition the gun controllers want is in place for this scenario. The FBI investigation for 10 months, multiple interviews, Omar having passed strict background checks to work in the security field, and the bar being a gun free zone. None of it stopped his malicious intent and nothing on a piece of paper ever will.
We got a new troll here? Or just willy lunchmeat…I’m taking a wait and see attitude-and buying as much guns and ammo as possible(got the wife FULLY on board!)
I just bought a ridiculous quantity of ammo, myself.
Again, we agree and I wonder if I should go buy a lottery ticket now.
Go ahead and buy it. By the way I have NEVER bought a lottery ticket in 41 years…which is funny as the wife just had her brother win $1000 in a scratch-off and gave the proceeds to his little sister to “hide” from his wife…lol. Anywho-wait and see…
I’m not surprised. If this bill goes through, every single American will be put on the list. Back door gun ban. Once all Americans are on the “List” they will then create another list that will go to the airlines. Call it no fly 2.
So, considering the push in recent history for the media to label the NRA as terrorists, how long before all of their members are put on this list?
Wow. Trusting the Obama administration to deny firearms to America who they determine might have ties to terrorism.
Fools or cowards or both.
GOA gets my money now.
Save your $ for firearms, and a burning boat to bury them at sea.
Who wants to bet that the firearms industry pays for these rumors to boost sales?
NRA for gun control is like saying ISIS is running a Jews for JESUS bible sale to fund nuclear war on islam.
Assuming strong due process is actually included, the Feds should have pay for your lawyer.
Joe average can’t afford his constitutional right to due process otherwise.
Johannes is spot on with this.
“At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed.”
1. I’m curious what exactly the criteria might be for being placed on a watchlist in the first place. If it’s just an arbitrary decision made by some bureaucrat, then there’s no way this will fly.
2. If this passes, then every anti-gun elitist will be foaming at the mouth to gain control of this list. Once that happens, it’s guaranteed that these criteria will be expanded down the road to include speech that some bureaucrat has deemed “suspicious,” or “unsafe.”
Make no mistake- this will be the beginning of the end of gun rights.
The NRA cannot flex or cave on this. No f*****g way.
answer to #1 is that it is that right now is unclear. However, it typically has been an arbitrary decision of some government bureaucrat. Fine swine is developing a No Fly, No Buy that allows the US Atty Gen to add anyone to the list for whatever reason what so ever. and the NRA is fine with this?
Ugh. Don’t get me started on Feinstein. We all need to write letters to the NRA, time now. We need to get fired up about this. This cannot happen.
I don’t like this at all. Where is the accountability? How long are someones rights put on hold until a ‘thorough’ investigation is complete?
Only temporarily, until Judgment Day. And then there’s the question of what it takes to get off the list.
My biggest complaint is the “timeframe”. Anyone can be arrested and charged for just about anything, but it shouldn’t take a year to get the charges thrown out. I’m thinking less than a month and with penalties. The FBI can’t just claim to delay because it has insufficient resources for speedy due process.
After “due process” removes your name from the list, what’s to prevent the same anonymous, unaccountable bureaucrat who put your name on the list before from sticking it right back on the list again?
First get everyone on a watch list barred from buying firearms. Then get universal background checks. Then add everyone who you don’t want to own guns to the watch list. Wash, rinse, repeat until gun ownership is just a distant memory and SJW mobs can beat anyone in the streets who supports candidates they don’t like. This would close the “gun rights loophole” that the leftists hate so much.
How the “F” would this have stopped this shooter or even the couple in San Bernardino?
Pure BS. If someone knows any city well enough there are plenty of corners where you can get drugs, Ho’s or guns.
Feel good BS for election year blather for people who have no clue about how this works or what it would or would not do. Useless!
you’re 100% correct. Not only was the Orlando shooter not a prohibited person or on the terrorist watch list, The San Bernardino couple had their brother in law straw purchase their CA approved Ar-15’s. This does nothing except give the government more power to control the law abiding.
The fact that the mainstream right has allowed the left to change the subject to gun control shows how feckless and stupid they are. This is a Muslim problem. Not a gun problem. The right in this country should’ve kept hammering them on that but they have no narrative discipline. The left has a bunch of fanatical boneheads who stick to a narrative and push and push no matter what. The right just bends over and accepts their red herrings. Unbelievable. Absolutely un-freaking-believable.
“The fact that the mainstream right has allowed the left to change the subject to gun control shows how feckless and stupid they are.”
Hear, hear!
Or, as Milo Yiannopoulus has said in explaining Trump’s rise to popularity, the existing “conservatives” are losers. They have lost, they are losing and they, likely will continue to lose.
This is yet another example, which is interesting since Milo pointed out the ONLY issue the “right” has won on is guns. And now, they are giving that away too.
My enthusiasm for Trump has waned. Hasn’t he let the left set the agenda in this case? How can he claim to be pro-2A and support this nonsense?
An excellent question.
Trump was gaining mindshare like mad earlier this week. Today he gave a lot of it back.
Strange move.
Looks like the NRA is traitorous scum after all.
The NRA had to be proactive on this else Trump would have dictated the terms to the NRA, which would have been much worse.
national RIFLE association. The are all about rifles, sometimes. They came to the 2A support field rather late in the game, it is uncomfortable ground for them. Look for them to try to trade pre-crime punishment for no action on assault rifle ban.
Remember the NRA endorsed the NFA, GCA and wrote the LEOPA.
They are not your friends.
I am waiting until they put everybody on SPLC’s hate list: https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map
You’re Boy Scout, no guns for you. Wait 6 months until we pull you off this list.
once on the list there is no getting off the list.
@realdonaldtrump @nra. MUST HAVE Adjudication, by a judge, BEFORE limiting/delaying firearms access. Due process after = Govt mischief.
The law already allows something along these lines. You have 3 days to complete an NICS check. Bring an indictment within that timeframe or STFU.
Letting the same people who persecuted white conservatives with the IRS decide who gets summarily put on a Gun Ban List is dangerously stupid.
I don’t like the grayish area of who is a terrorist and who should be arrested
McCarthyism is coming folks. Fuck you for selling out.
i think many are really missing an otherwise reasonable, or perhaps genius, strategy at play here. NRA is agreeing to a small (in the big picture) concession here – “lets say what needs to be said in order to get our guy in place”. If political history tells us anything, politicians, and scummy lobbyists, and scumbag government contractors, will tell us (the press) whatever we want to here. if they bring a few more voters to Trumps corner, with a GOP senate, things will be done as required once in office. Need to get in office first, and you wont get there be making at least 50% of the non-supporting electorate feel you offer them nothing. get elected first, than “politics” as usual. it is a great strategy. because of the “gun issue” this week and subsequent press, and Trumps non-thought out comments, Hilldy would likely win.
If you think the NRA is picking it’s battles here, to win the long game, I’d like to know what long game you think will be left to win. Trump should never have been endorsed, it should have been made clear to him that without any real evidence that he means anything he says about anything, that the support was probational at best. Instead, he walked away with it, without proving anything, The only thing he has to offer is he’s not Hillary and it doesn’t look like that even matters anymore.
And sure enough I just got the NRA email blast to call congress and oppose any new gun control legislation.
There will be grandstanding for a week but not many people want to go on record on such a divisive issue in an election year. So let’s see how it plays out.
I’m finally seeing with my own eyes one of those reasons people don’t trust the NRA.
Glad I didn’t pay for my lifetime membership.
This is absurdly shortsighted. I don’t believe there is anything that can be done by anyone to predict or stop these sorts of attacks from happening short of 100% police state and that is not an option.
I’ve always been an annual member for this very reason. Just in case NRA throws us all under the bus. Some of you Trump people need to hit him up on social media and tell them your thoughts on this issue. He was just starting to look appealing to me…..
I loved watching Trump hammer Klinton and Obama on their response to the attack. I thought if he kept doing that sort of thing and left the judge in the Trump U lawsuit alone, he could make some progress.
But…he showed his “lets make a deal” colors here. FUCK him. Sideways. With a rusty 12 gauge wire bore brush dipped in habanero sauce.
Steve I laughed hard lol.
Makes me glad my money goes to the SAF.
If you are wrongfully put on a terrorist watch list, there better be some guaranteed compensation for any fees, loss of income, defamation, or slander that was incurred while you were on it.
Not to mention the people responsible should be fined or removed from their posts if they were involved in any wrongdoing or intentional plan to put an innocent law abiding citizen on a watch list without sufficient evidence. Any list that can be used to incarcerate citizens should have very strict rules that are not up to vague interpretation and the penalties for abusing who goes on the list should be severe.
if there is sufficient evidence to put you on a “watch list” then there is sufficient evidence to have you arrested and prosecuted. The problem is that it doesn’t take sufficent evidence. The issue with the watch list is that if you merely had contact with someone else on the list, you are put on the list until they determine that it was a casual encounter. So if you are a muslim baker, and someone on the list goes to your shop every Friday, you are on the list. And what did you do? sold him some bread.
Hence the criteria for someone to be on a terrorist watch list better be comprehensive and should go beyond casual or vague suspicion.
Since we don’t know the criteria, it’s hard to say. However, there better be a crime committed or some incriminating evidence that happens before legal action is taken and due process.
Get over it !
Due process for gun owners is whatever the government says it is, whenever they say it is. I’m guessing there is something going on between NRA and government. Something like threat of DOJ or IRS visits, with NRA given time to gracefully alter its positions to come in line with “common sense”.
As previously noted in another posting string, this political season is like not other; beserker time, amok time.
Yeah. Not surprised. Not surprised in the least.
The NRA rhetoric, since I started paying attention 20+ years ago, has been about keeping guns out of the hands of bad guys, rather than stopping us from getting them. Thus, they’re against bans of guns (and that’s good), but have no reason to oppose certain people being denied their 2A rights–in fact they will actively cooperate with that. They continue to actively endorse NICS and similar checks, which gives them no leg to stand on opposing UBC.
[Yes, I said actively endorse. They brag about it. No, they DON’T say “we fought the Brady bill and limited the damage to this, which we normally would have opposed”; instead they proudly stand behind passing it, because it supposedly helps keep guns out the hands of criminals. They even take credit for sales denied because people don’t pass NICS.]
My guess is that the NRA is dealing with a political reality on the ground – ie – their people are telling them they are not going to be able to stop this and they need to mitigate the damage.
We on the other hand are posting comments in a blog.
I have all of the same concerns that you do. I should be astonished that anyone would vote to summarily do away with due process guaranteed in the 5th Amendment by summarily denying citizens their constitutional rights, with no definition of how you get on, or how to get off said ‘list’. But I’m not. It’s the commie liberals and media that are pushing this and they hate guns, the Constitution, and have zero penchant for logic
So how about we also add to this ‘compromise’ — that in addition to the complete denial of their 2nd and 5th Amendment rights, we also deny all 1st, 4th, 6th and 8th Amendment rights as well. Will that make them rethink the absurdity of their position? It might take the steam out of the Media.
The sad fact that there are actually walking-breathing people who rationalize, justify, makes excuses, or who otherwise lie to themselves about the NRA being the ‘staunch defender’ of Amendment II, is laughable.
The NRA has been, currently is and will continue to be in support of gun-control. Gun control is diametrically opposite to Amendment II’s enumeration of a clear and absolute prohibition on government infringing (read gun-controls) on the essential and fundamental natural right.
The NRA and its minions and sycophants are quislings and domestic gerbils, purposefully gnawing away at what is constitutionally prohibited from infringement.
Of course, many of the same willfully ignorant NRA dupes and enablers are also wild-eyed drooling Trump supporters and the completely predictable fact that he is now openly calling for this gun-control should be no surprise, but, then, well….
Please join me in a rousing yet mindless chant/chorus of the ‘murican patriot’ mantra of…..USA…USA…USA.
Pathetic.
By refusing to discuss transparency and adhering to the right of the people to due process, this soon to be legislation will be another stronger framework with which the state can deny the people the free ability to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.
Here in CA, every gun measure has a pair of truck nuts on it called “commonsense” and yet, they do not stop crimes committed with firearms. Not a single bullet has been nor will ever be stopped by a law written into a book.
By refusing to address the specifics of each individual case of “mass shooters”, politicians and the media are guilty of manipulating the people’s understanding of this problem. We will only have more political opportunism take place after each attack. Woe unto the people.
Remove the immigrants and their children and the problem goes away. Every wave of immigration since 1800 has been bad for the rights of Americans.
What is going to happen when it turns out that a great majority of the people on the watch list and no-fly list are Muslims? Eventually, there is going to be a critical mass of persons denied the right to buy a firearm and it will look like Muslims are being targeted by the government. Since the anti-2A crowd is the same as the “we’re not at war with Islam” crowd, the optics will be interesting.
+ 1
On one hand, the Libs are ‘horrified’ that anyone would want to ‘discriminate’ based on religion (ie – temporarily suspend more Muslims who hate America, Gays and Women from flowing into the country with almost no screening AS IS OCCURRING RIGHT NOW), but on the other hand, they want the government to be able to discriminate and deny Constitutional rights to anyone summarily, without any ‘defined’ parameters or due process at all? How does that make frikking sense?
Because Guns. Because Sheep. Because Obama. Because Propaganda from the Liberal Media.
“Since the anti-2A crowd is the same as the “we’re not at war with Islam” crowd, the optics will be interesting.”
Not really. The government will simply declare that the demographic of the no fly/no buy lists must reflect the current ethnic demographic of the nation, and take action to adjust the numbers accordingly.
Tucker just stated this as clearly as anyone I’ve seen yet on Fox. Paraphrasing:
‘Once again, the Liberals who always blame America first, tell us this is all America’s fault’. — This is as simple as our retort should remain on this issue. We need a one-liner to repeat, repeat, repeat.
Putting a mechanism in place that allows the government to summarily add anyone to a ‘list’ so they can completely deny them a Constitutional right (or rights) with no due process, with no definition of why or how they were added to the list or how they can get off the list – completely doing away with the 5th Amendment in the process – is the most dangerous thing I have ever seen proposed in my life. I am sickened. Due Process is the basis for the entire system of law, dating back to the damn Magna friggin Carta. On one hand, the Libs don’t want us to discriminate based on religion (ie – against muslims), but they want the government to be able to discriminate without ANY basis at all? Summarily? How does that make frikking sense? Do they think that THEY are immune to the effects of this?
I understand that the NRA and Trump are at least is couching this as ‘not without due process”, but as the OP asks – how long does this last for, indefinitely? How does an innocent person get off the list? What damages can that person then sue for?
What possible reason could the Demorats possibly have for being against those stipulations??? Because it’s the NRA’s position – that’s the only reason.
We need to give the people who routinely call NRA members terrorists the power to summarily ban terror suspects from owning guns. The people who want to bring in millions more Muslims from the Middle East and legalize millions of illegal aliens so they can politically disenfranchise us forever. The people who are fanatical Black Lives Matter supporters. The kind of people who, when they watch Trump supporters get beat up outside his rallies, say they brought it on themselves.
Brilliant.
The NRA can EXPLETIVE DELETED
You want to see a bunch of crazies with guns?!?!? Not much longer to wait, the civil war is coming.
The NRA had to be proactive on this else Trump would have dictated the terms to the NRA, which would have been much worse. Trump has been anti-2A until the primaries started. Remember ‘everything’s negotiable’, including our rights.
My issue isn’t with NRA being proactive on this; rather, my issue is with NRA being wrong on this. NRA should be decrying the no-fly list, and demanding that due process be required in order to be placed on the list. Then – and only then – should NRA be willing to discuss any use of that list.
All of this effort and fuss over something that can be circumvented by getting one’s girlfriend or some stranger off the street who wants $20 to make a straw purchase. No, I’m not advocating straw purchasing, but let’s be real. Background checks do nothing. Millions of underage high school students can somehow get their hands on beer despite not be legally able to purchase it. No one is suggesting a background check system for booze because most people understand that such a system would be a waste of time and money.
This is why I have never been and never will be part of Negotiating our RIghts Away. They keeping compromising out rights, from NFA to GOA of 68 to the 94 Crime Bill, now this is coming, compilation of Due Process.
Why am I not surprised that the Communist Democrats and their Liberal Media allies would want to summarily do away with the 5th Amendment in order to attack the 2nd?
I am a little surprised though that Trump would play into the whole ‘blame America, it’s all about gun control’ crap meme.
“At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed.”
Which is why the NRA’s proposal is unlikely to gain any traction. The last thing that Obama wants is a way to get off the list, especially if it involves due process. I mean, why does he need due process when he has a phone and a pen?
Hey, Barry, allow me to instruct you on where you can shove your phone and your pen.
Besides, due process at the federal level would take an act of God. Which makes it double impossible since he’s not allowed in D.C.
The NRA just sold us down the river. God help us. God help us all. I am ashamed of Sen. John Cornyn. Anyone that thinks that they can sit down and compromise with Finstein and believe the proglodytes are going to abide by their promises are too stupid to hold office.
I don’t get it. The watchlist is a joke, and the NSA and FBI have proven how incompetent they are. They are too stupid to do a background check and then monitor his online activity. When guys start visiting and posting on jihadi websites and watching beheading videos, it should have flagged something. All of his activity should have been intercepted, and the second he bought a gun, FBI agents should have pounced.
But life isn’t like 24. Government employees are lazy, and they can’t be bothered to do anything properly.
Didn’t take trump long show his true and origional position on firearms? Remember as you read this iF YOU CAN’T BUY, YOU CANT OWN FIREARMS! The NRA caved on this and left the door wide open: close no fly-no gun but it only works via a FFL. Now close private sale loophole and require full universal background checks. The no fly list has no due process for getting put on, taken off or even notification that your on the list. Current firearms owners would be criminials if caught with a gun and property seized. How many anti government voices will be silenced for fear of being put on the List? The NRA TALKS of due process, investigations, charges and Courts. The entire premise of the no fly list is that there is not enough evidence to charge a person! The Gov can’t restrict your movement without due process but they can restrict the method. It was not to long ago the NRA fought anti gun legislation with: A Right delayed is a Right denied! That got the three day rule established instead of an open ended potential wait that could be ripe with abuse. Again they cave!
I’m for killing all terrorists and their lines of support. Strip U. S. Citizenship if not a foreigner,: Put them in a C-5 and air drop them over the sandbox no ID or Passport or money. Just like drug dealers, confiscate all properties and assets. Parents make bad decisions that affect their kids. Too bad get on the plane.
Yesterday, Homeland Security determined that anyone who is a member of the NRA, Second Amendment Foundation, Gun Owners of America are all considered domestic terrorists and will be placed on the Terrorist Watch List and will be subject to search and taking of property without a warrant without any recourse to reclaim such property. How do you think this will go down???
Come and f—- take it. That’s how it will go down. If it’s my last day….oh well.
Uh no. There should be due process protections in order to be put on the list – not taken off of it! Idiots. They shouldn’t be able to take your rights away at a moments notice on the basis of their perceptions only. You shouldn’t take people’s rights without them first being able to be heard in a court of law. End of story.
Exactly, due process is first, not last. As a NRA member, this is unacceptable. Until they dismiss the current leadership I will not send them a dime, or renew my membership. Reminds me of the ‘Guns and Ammo’ debacle a year or two ago. Looking at GOA.
due process is first, not last
Which is why people can’t be arrested until after the trial.
Oh, wait. They get arrested first and then they get due process. What was I thinking?
Not the same Ralph. They are welcome to arrest these people and try to charge them with a crime.
However, they seek to eliminate their rights even though they have performed NO crime – AND they know that! This is unacceptable to me. It’s guilty until proven innocent nonsense. Precrime garbage. I would rather live in a place that could be subjected to a few dead bodies (even the possibility of my own!) than have my and others rights arbitrarily taken at the whim of some pimply faced dude behind a computer, or by a bureaucratic typographical error. Unbelievable – why would anyone endorse this.
Furthermore, why are we talking about gun control instead of the four hour response time by police/SWAT???
Except that arrest requires probable cause – meaning that arrest requires due process.
Where is the due process with being placed on a double-secret probation government blacklist?
Exactly why I never joined the NRA. I don’t know words strong enough without descending into the gutter to describe this statement.
This is a crushing statement on citizens’ rights, and the leadership of the NRA needs to be dismissed immediately.
Kurt
Clue one was how Trump got the tweet out there BEFORE the fili. It was a calculated preemption. It would appear that the involvement of Trump and the NRA has torpedoed the democrat filibuster. Feinstein came right out and said it. “He (Cornyn) gave it to the NRA.”
SOOOO… the dems are now the “do nothing party.” It’s literally a “do nothing” filibuster. So all they get out of it is to be seen for the deranged, obstinate fools they are.
Whoever it was upthread who said “dems will never accept due process” nailed it.
What part of “DUE PROCESS, OR SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED ” don’t these people understand! !!?
********************************************
Fifth Amendment
The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Constitutional amendments and/or clauses are no defense against the central government. All constitutional rights are subject to common sense restriction and regulation by the central government. Documents do not vote. Either overturn the current central government by voting in “the right people”, of “get your mind right”.
We are fortunate to live in a time to observe the long retreat of mankind as able to determine anything for themselves individually. Look to Europe; this is how empires die.
For those challenged by common-core education……
********************************************
Fourteenth Amendment
The Fourteenth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution reads:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
This may not end well.
There have always been evil men who beat the system, those who are guilty of terrible crimes who escape justice using rights given to protect the innocent.
They can not be denied the rights that everyone, including those accused of terrible crimes, are entitled too.
If it is acceptable to remove the rights of individuals who are on some secrete list because they might do something in the future, then what about all the other rights that we are entitled to?
Is it then ok to imprison someone without a trial because the crime they supposedly committed was so heinous?
Or perhaps they are allowed a trial, but they are denied the right to not self-incriminate themselves.
Or their defense is denied the right to see any evidence before the trial.
What about torture of a citizen, is this then allowed if the accused fits the government’s narrative?
What if someone is accused of hateful speech?
Do we allow the government to take away their 1st amendment right?
Would the left insist that we take away their use of the internet, since it is such a powerful tool?
Would the government then allow them only to use pen and paper?
Given the attitude of our colleges today, does this sound to far fetched?
Would we suspend the right of Muslims to keep and bear arms because we have had multiple terrorist attacks by this particular group?
We do not let these rights be suspended for any individual, even if it gives evil people the opportunity to do harm.
The premise of the No Fly List is especially harmful to the poor.
The poor will not be able to afford the expense it will take to get themselves off a list sponsored by a government agency with limitless resources.
Works well for the elite though.
Yes, to everything you wrote !
Now what?
They aren’t caving. They’ve always been this way. They really believe this statist rhetoric. How many times does the NRA have to tell y’all that they don’t actually believe in the inalienable individual right to keep and bear arms before you believe them? They only believe in the privilege to keep and bear arms, not the right. They’ve been this way as long as I’ve been alive which is why I don’t support them.
How long would the “temporary ban” for Americans on the government’s secret, unaccountable Terrorist Watch List last? Forever.
What would be the process for appealing and “un-suspending” the “temporary” ban? Silly people, appeals process are not for serfs.
Does the “temporary ban” extend to firearms already in a suspect’s possession? Sure, why not?
There’s no putting lipstick on this pig. Make no mistake: this is the NRA caving to pressure from gun control advocates and, presumably, the Republican presidential candidate they recently endorsed.
RINO.
Some of the prominent TTAG personalities commenting on how this NRA compromise is “just fine” should really just turn in their guns now and go live in England or Australia. A fool and his gun are soon parted…
“due process will be retroactively applied” What does that mean if someone gets killed waiting for their gun? Let’s exhume the body and leave it at HQ.
What about sales between private individuals? Say you’re on this secret list. And you, of course, have no idea you are on this list as it IS a secret. You purchase a firearm from your neighbor and have now, unwittingly, violated the law. What then? Since you are a prohibited person, any seemingly innocuous interaction with the authorities could turn into a nightmare of epic proportions. The NRA mantra supporting the notion that we aggressively enforce the laws we have tells me that this will not go well.
The point of a secret no-buy list is to lure people into unwittingly committing a felony. Merely declaring on the background check form that you are not prohibited from owning/purchasing a handgun is a crime, because unbeknownst to you, you are already a prohibited person. Make enough examples, and maybe such actions will slow or discourage gun sales.
Any discussions about the implications of any government involvement in ownership of firearms start and end at the same place: government intent to disarm the public. the rest is minutia, not worth talking about.
Good. Americans are too coddled by the “hypotheticals” of what tyranny and oppression might look like. Let’s start seeing some action from the tyrants so that perhaps enough people will be kicked into gear to fight back once their lives are truly affected by this unconstitutional attack.
Totalitarian oppression was always going to happen anyway. Might as well happen when at least some spark of American defiance still exists amongst the groveling masses.
As of this posting, the “NRA” is ‘trending’ on Twitter.
The comments with that hashtag are very revealing. Thanks NRA, you’ve emboldened all the wackos that say NRA is a “terrorist organization.”
https://twitter.com/search?q=%22The%20N.R.A.%22&src=tren
I can’t say we didn’t expect to see something like this coming from Trump, but I expected the NRA to at least hold his feet to the fire.
Last month when the NRA endorsed Trump he said, “I will not let you down”.
With a free pass like this, it looks like he won’t have to worry about that promise. The NRA has always buckled when it comes to the Patriot Act and any other violation of due process. The NRA’s feet are made of clay when it comes to the 4th and 5th Amendment. We are fucked.
I’ m ok with stopping sales to suspected terrorists so long as:
1. All denial lists are made public.
2. Due process is put in place for both putting people on the list and taking them off.
3. The process guarantees that getting off the list will not be prohibitively expensive (lawyers plus months in court).
I am a constitutional absolutist, and due process must be upheld.
“I am a constitutional absolutist, and due process must be upheld.”
Ok, I’ll byte. How does a constitutional absolutist conjure up constitutional grounds whereby there can be any sort of “due process” for removing constitutional rights from someone who has not violated any laws? Even the mythical “ham sandwich” in NYC must be shown to have already taken some action that that can support the likelihood that a crime has been committed. Even in NYC, the sandwich cannot be indicted by a secret court (grand jury) for merely being a combination of bread and meat.
Edit – I meant to reply to DetroitMan
I was thinking about the whole publishing the no fly list thing for everyone to see publicly. The problem is the government doesn’t have the credibility for me to believe that the published list is the real, complete, or only list because of purposeful obfuscation or simple incompetence.
The nra have not fight 1986 for your right that stills an privileg after 1934 and taxing to own full automatic weapons.
Same for felony flatrate bans 68 ore the import restrictions.
What have they done 1994 against the “gun free school zone act” ??
They are only luke warm !!
Here is what I wrote to the NRA:
As an NRA life member, I strongly oppose the recent proposal to block firearm sales to individuals on the No Fly List.
The NRA should abandon this proposal and instead focus on a key point within it: if the government has probable cause on a terrorism suspect, then it should charge the person with a crime! The rest is extremely dangerous to the rights and liberties of Americans: to expand the power of unaccountable agencies that make secret lists based on secret criteria to strip people’s rights without due process, under circumstances where the government has probable cause of a crime and chooses not to act. Deprivation of liberty comes after due process, not before.
And please consider that once we’ve established that it is acceptable to delay the exercise of a basic right based on secret criteria, wouldn’t it be reasonable to impose other more transparent criteria, or give the government more than 72 hours to ensure public safety?
I expect the NRA to stand and fight on this issue, not sell the ground that we stand on.
The Courts have recognized a Constitutional right to travel (Dulles case) as they have recognized the right to keep and bear arms. Totally without due process, Homeland Security has been keeping another secret list and denying people the right to fly. The Constitution protects people, not just citizens.
Why would anyone trust Obama or some committee we don’t know to take away our right to buy a firearm or for that matter to travel by air? I would trust him with my wallet in the room alone with him.
A typical NRA compromise by their Grand Leader. The Board has no input into running the NRA, the advertising agency that controls the NRA is in charge. I had talk myself into supporting Trump against dozens of my more hard core friends. It will be a relief not to vote now because if he is compromising before he is president what will he do as president.
Spot on.
As an NRA member, I disagree with Paulsen’s statement that “A gun right delayed is a gun right denied.” Total BS. The American people overwhelmingly are behind the No Fly No Buy. This is not just an Obama/HIllary plan, it is the American people’s majority opinion. Time for congress to grow a couple and quit playing partisan politics.
If we don’t come together with some reasonable background checks on these radicals like Omar we will get a more extreme law passed that truly does limit availability of our favorite guns.
Except that a) there is no evidence that the American people are overwhelmingly behind No Fly No Buy, and b) we live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy; so poll numbers are irrelevant. Constitutionally protected rights – including the right to keep and bear arms, the right to due process, the presumption of innocence, and the right ot confront one’s accuser – are not subjected to the whims of the majority.
You mean, “reasonable” background checks like the one(s) – yes, multiple – that he passed?
That sounds like the same argument that has led to the creeping erosion of our constitutionally protected rights over the past decade.
No more.
Work to amend the constitution, or GTFO.
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