NRA Florida Lobbyist Marion Hammer writes [via ammoland.com]: As previously reported, the passing of the Florida gun control bill was so orchestrated by Republicans that as soon as Governor Scott signed the bill into law, FDLE quickly shut down the firearms background check system for hours to update the system to accommodate the new gun control provisions . . .
They did this with no prior notice to dealers.
Although Florida Department of Law Enforcement had enough advance notice to make modifications to their software to accommodate the changes in the law, they apparently didn’t train their customer service people to actually help dealers who call in for clarification.
There have been a significant number of complaints from dealers but a common complaint from those who have called the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) Help Line is they are not getting much help.
The most common complaint is that they are being told that employees at customer service were not attorneys and that it is up to the individual FFL’s to interpret the law themselves as it pertains to date of purchase and/or transfer, or to consult their own attorney for clarification on questions pertaining to the new law.
It does seem, however, that Florida Department of Law Enforcement can arbitrarily make their own rules and give clarification if they choose.
It seems FDLE has already decided that a person under 21 who has a firearm in pawn shop, can have 30-90 days to redeem their firearm before losing it. (time frame depends on which FDLE employee you talk to) But Florida Department of Law Enforcement is apparently not willing to give the same consideration to a person under 21 who owns a rifle or shotgun and has it in gun shop on consignment to sell.
Financial Losses for those Under 21
The gun bill was rammed through the Florida Legislature and signed by Florida Governor, Rick Scott, at incredible speed and in their zeal, they made the bill take effect when the Governor signed it. That has caused considerable damage to innocent people.
Before the law took effect, if a young adult under 21 had a rifle or shot gun:
1. On lay-away, they cannot have their firearm and have probably lost any monies already paid since lay-away plans generally specify no refunds, no returns and no exchanges.
2. On special order and it was already purchased and paid for in full but hasn’t arrived, they cannot have the firearm when it arrives. FDLE will effectively nullify the purchase and will deny possession.
And since it was a special order, they many not be able to return it and get their money back. If the seller does agree to take it back, there may be a significant re-stocking fee and the local dealer will require them to pay shipping to send it back.
3. Purchased online, paid for in full and shipped to a local dealer, they cannot have the firearm when it arrives. Florida Department of Law Enforcement will effectively nullify the purchase and will deny possession. If the seller agrees to take it back there may be a significant re-stocking fee and the dealer will require them to pay shipping to send it back.
4. In a pawn shop, FDLE will allow them either 30 days or 90 days to get it back or they lose it. (time frame depends on which Florida Department of Law Enforcement employee you talk to)
5. On consignment and it doesn’t sell, how do they get it back? Florida Department of Law Enforcement would not answer that question. In fact, Florida Department of Law Enforcement said to call ATF but ATF said it’s a state law so its up to Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
6. In a gun shop for repairs, will they be able to get it back? Florida Department of Law Enforcement has apparently not decided how they will handle that.
The bottom line: a person under 21 is being prohibited from receiving a firearm they ALREADY own if it has to be transferred to them through a dealer. Florida Department of Law Enforcement will deny a transfer to anyone under 21 years of age.
This report is based on reports to us from dealers who have tried to get information from Florida Department of Law Enforcement, from attorneys, and from young adults who have had their Second Amendment rights denied.
Please be advised, that unlike the other gun control sections of the law, the section that bans bump stocks does not take effect until October 1, 2018. We expect to see litigation filed on the bump stock section in the not too distant future.
Oh yes,
Government, making things worse for everyone they try to help since….well….forever.
Helping is a bad assumption. This is about power.
How about a School Resource Officer with a gun shooting at a student with a gun…Yesterday!
http://missoulian.com/news/local/report-gunshots-at-missoula-s-big-sky-high-fired-by/article_f14cb7f4-ee52-58e2-abda-afb0f8f33421.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
The RSO allegedly fired on the vehicle after the student allegedly tried to run the RSO down with said vehicle.
Let this play out before jumping to conclusions.
Given today’s climate I’m sure the RSO is in the right and will be vindicated. The perp did crash the car across the street from a middle school.
You cannot risk letting an armed student escape. Plus this same school has had several other credible threats since Parkland.
I hope they ban cars and cell phones for the 18 to 21 group next. And condoms. They aren’t old enough to be responsible about sex either….
Florida Republican’s did this.
Don’t trust either political party with your freedom.
Right wing, left wing, and all connected to a body of a bird of prey..
More like sparrows, a worthless invasive species that results in the decline of native species.
More like vulture picking over the bones.
The lawsuits over this should be pretty epic.
Gunshine State my ass. Florida didn’t have very nice gun laws before this monstrosity and they got a lot worse with this. Hopefully the governor killed his career with this but I won’t hold my breath on that.
“Florida didn’t have very nice gun laws before this monstrosity…”
Well, I’m here and from my perspective, while they may need *some* improvement, overall they’re not bad.
– No permit required for carry in your vehicle.
– NFA ‘toys’ are good-to-go, and much improved after the LEO sign-off was killed.
– “Stand you Ground’. – *Applause* 😉
– ‘Castle Doctrine’ is rather broad, pretty much anywhere under a roof attached, as one 15 YO thug near me found out the hard way.
I’m probably missing other goodness, what’s the suck part?
EDIT – Make that “No permit required for concealed carry in your vehicle.”
Florida is like Texas was a few years ago, before they legalized OCing handguns. Then again, Texas never had as great of laws as people think. IMO, since 2011 Ohio has had some of the best laws of any state besides the ones with Constitutional Carry. We have been able to OC anything- ANYTHING- since time immemorial. The only annoying issues we had were the ban on magazines over 31 rounds (ended 2015), and Bob Taft (R)’s ban on having a loaded weapon in the cabin of your car (from 2004 to 2011, if you had a gun in the cabin it had to be unloaded and magazines and speedloaders had to be unloaded as well, so I guess people back then either stuck their stuff in the trunk or carried C96s). Kasich signed car carry and bar carry into law and ended the magazine ban and allowed campus carry at state colleges, but he’s one of the most wishy-washy, watered-down RINOs around, and I still haven’t forgiven him for killing the Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati train project. We’ve also used state preemption to shut down BS laws in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights (among others).
I wish TTAG would have even more nasty, disgusting, repulsive pictures on the right side of the screen that nobody would ever click on in a million years. Because that’s what sells…nasty, disgusting pictures.
AdBlock+ and Ghostery.
/fixed
So, with the average age being 75 or so, we are now up to 28% of peoples’ lives being unable to lawfully purchase firearms. Considering how, in the late teens and early 20’s, people generally finalize their political and philosophical outlook for life, I have to wonder about the long-term ramifications for gunownership of even a 3-year additional delay in gaining access to and familiarity with them. Ever more people, ever later into their lives, without any experience with firearms whatsoever, voting.
The next age limit increase will be to 26. Obamacare has already set it into motion.
That’s a damn good point.
I would say, and not as a cop out, that it depends. Some people’s reaction will be to get angry and start voting against gun controllers. Others will probably slide into non-ownership while others will be energized to get a gun on their 21st birthday because forbidden fruit.
Ultimately I suspect it will mostly have to do with the parents. Parents who encourage use and ownership will produce kids who will obey the law until they day they can buy a gun (whenever that may be since this may be struck down or undone).
My first thought about this, when the laws were passed, wasn’t a pro-2A thought actually. Instead it was a practical one. Having worked in a bar I’ve seen A LOT of stupid shit done on people’s 21st birthday so my first thought was “It might not be a good idea to have the first day you can legally drink/buy a bottle of booze be the same day you can buy your very first gun”.
Not to start a huge argument here but I’ve long suspected that one of the few things the Europeans do absolutely correctly is introduce their kids to being responsible with alcohol long before they ever let them near a car/motorcycle/moped. Americans, who are responsible and own guns, tend to do the same thing with guns (Get ’em while they’re young!). A concern of mine about this law is the sub-set of people who 1) want a gun and 2) don’t come from a big 2A/gun owning family. As such they go out, buy a gun(s) on their 21st as well as a bottle then head to the bar. When they come home drunk they have little to no experience with any guns and they wanna play with their new “toy”… so they crack that bottle and get out the gun. That could be inviting disaster via a law “meant to help”. I hope not but I bet we see at least a few people die or kill someone on their 21st because of this.
Americans are able to vote at 18, and people can do a LOT more damage with a ballot than a pistol or a bottle of whiskey.
Unless the people are willing to change the voting age to 21, adults who are 18 or older should be allowed to purchase not only long guns,but handguns as well. Why should an 18 year old girl on her own not be allowed to have a pistol in her nightstand when she’s out on her own? Why should a married 20 year old serviceman living off base with his family not be allowed to protect them with a gun?
18 is considered legally an adult in America. Reaching the age of adulthood should come with rights and responsibilities. These kids have all the responsibilities but not the rights now. It’s un-American.
I never said I had a problem with selling guns to 18 year olds. Not sure why you decided to suggest, via a line of questioning, that I said something remotely suggesting I had a problem with it.
I wonder what the courts would say if we made the requirement to code the same as buying a gun. I mean the full mean deal with background check, government issued picture ID, the whole works. It would be funny to see how a liberal judge will contort logic to claim one is constitutional, and the other is not.
“…while others will be energized to get a gun on their 21st birthday because forbidden fruit.”
There’s another angle to it.
Consider – it’s natural for kids to rebel against their parents – “Ill *NEVER* be like you!”
The Leftists have gone so off-the-rails bat-shit crazy in their hated of guns, I’m convinced that’s not an insignificant part of the trend of Millenials to be much stronger supporters of the 2A than earlier generations.
(My .02 and worth roughly half that amount…)
I have read that 18-20 year of membership in gun rights organization has been skyrocketing.
Yup!
Ain’t it great?
The harder the ‘adults’ scream for gun control, the kids are pushing back even harder for gun rights.
Good thing they are young. They have the energy the old farts no longer have as much of…
You supported one of the provisions in the bill Mrs. Hammer. It’s blood on your hands.
Exactly. By supporting the bump stock ban, the NRA provided an opening for the anti-gunners to launch a new offensive, and for the Republicans to appear “reasonable” by offering (partially) NRA-backed concessions.
The NRA has done a lot of good in recent years, but at the moment they’ve lost their way.
Lost their way? They’ve been selling out gun right since at least 1934!
…which is why I qualified my statement by saying “in recent years.”
NRA has done a lot of good, for a few years after 1977, but that was a while ago. Or do you mean recently like the last few years, as opposed to the last 130.
What recent years? 1999 they endorsed the gun free school zones, then in 2003 and 2013 they endorsed renewing the Undetectable Firearms Act (Note 2013 was a response to the Defense Distributed Liberator, which needed to include a metal weight to comply with the UFA. When the NRA pushed the UFA they claimed it didn’t touch any existing firearms.) and of course in 2017 they endorsed bumb stock bans. This fake gun rights group can’t go 5 years without selling us out.
Mrs. Hammer is complaining about the loss of sales, not the loss of rights. The NRA is completely worried about their revenue streams, not your rights.
Her entire article is about 18-20 year olds getting stuck in situations where they lose their money and don’t get the item they already paid for.
Try actually reading the article before commenting.
Not about the article, about the last 30 years of her history. Instead of looking at this one post by her, check out the last 50.
“Mrs. Hammer is complaining about the loss of sales…”
Forgive me, you used the word “is”. In this sentence “is” is the singular, third person present participle of the word “be”. Your use of this word in this context says, whether you meant it or not, that the post currently under discussion is a complaint about the loss of sales which this post quite clearly is not.
Since you used the word “is” I would have no reason to think that your post refers to other posts that are in the past.
She is, and has been, complaining about things that effect NRA revenue, and is pro gun control, in Florida. So yeah, is, as in, currently full of crap. She’s a shill, pure and simple, for her Ackerman McQeen consulting money. I mean it’s only a couple of hundred $k a year, but it adds up.
Marion Hammer supports the government ban on rapid fire guns doesn’t she?????
The problem with a gun Community is that they have forgotten the future Generations of possible gun owners. There should be rifle teams at all high schools and second amendment education and responsibility classes. This way the children would learn about their civil rights and responsibilities. Instead of a small population of gun owners that are part of some “exclusive Club”, which is the impression many in the country have.
Does Marion Hammer support the creation of new rifle teams in the state of Florida? Has she worked to create new rifle teams in public schools in the state of Florida? Has any Florida gun rights group worked to create new rifle teams at schools?
Way back when I was in 8th-grade, California required 8th-grade history to be Constitutional studies. We learned the history of why the Constitution was written how it was written and the history behind each of the amendments, which required discussion of events in U.S. and world history.
At some point the A.C.L.U. got into the act a got this shot down as “discriminatory”.
So to get something like studying the Constitution to that extent back in schools we would need to go fight the A.C.L.U. not that it is a bad thing, but courts are afraid of them.
For those who would like to know how long ago that was, I was among the 1st 18-year-olds that could vote.
There was a Firearms class at my high school and Sacramento, CA in the late 1970s. No live guns would be used in the class and I regret not taking it back then. But I was from a family that didn’t like guns although I was always a supporter of the Second Amendment as a child. Perhaps it was because I was also a war gamer as a kid. Dungeons & Dragons, Air War, Games from SPI and Game Designers Workshop, were some that I played.
The only thing the ACLU supports is glory hole sex lawsuits and Piss Christ art.
No Grandfather clause ?? complete illegal and unconstitunal
Right? What about the 18-20 year olds that already own guns? Are they expected to “turn em all in”?
Even under this law it is legal to own a gun under 21, even under 18. They’ve made it illegal for someone under 21 to buy through a dealer. Nothing about private party sales, nothing about a parent giving to a child.
Hammer is just another Wayne and Chris leg humper. Easy easy money for all three.
GOA, 2A foundation and state groups is where YOUR money and support should go, for now.
Thanks for trolling. Now go back to the basement.
18 old enough to have
credit cards
buy a house
buy a car
make life changing contracts
HAVE A FUCKING KID and be 100% responsible for them?
buy a gun=nope???
To be fair, you can have a kid at like 12 or 13, so I’d not count that for anything.
The helpful fdle also decided that if you go to pick up a silencer you have purchased and transferred and waited 6-9mos or more, since it is a “firearm” you need a 3 day wait. Though wait from what, I didn’t purchase it from my local, it came from silencer shop. 3 days from when I fill out the firearm form? From the form 4? From the form 3?
You have your 9 month assassination plan all ready to go, go to pick up your can, 3 day wait? Ah, nevermind, after 3 days you calm down from your scheme and don’t go through with it. We can’t even calculate the millions of Floridians who are saved every second!
CCW permit trumps it… Apparently, at the dealer’s discretion.
If Florida kids aren’t any smarter then those new York and L A kids I saw on TV last night. NO. They should not be able to own anything more dangerous then a fuzzy bunny, ever , not at 18 not at 21 not at 42 never
It’s been a number of years since I was behind the counter of a pawn and gun, but as I understand the laws in Florida, once you pawn something, you effectively lose legal control of it.
Example – You pawn a guitar to to a pawn shop for a hundred bucks and the pawn shop burns down.
The pawn shop is not legally required to replace the item destroyed by the fire, no matter what the value of the item was.
From my recollection, the only legal responsibility the pawn shop has for the item in pawn is the cash value of the loan.
If you pawn a drop-dead gorgeous Taylor 12-string acoustic guitar for a hundred bucks, and if it’s destroyed while in pawn, the shop is only liable for the hundred bucks *you* pawned it for.
If I’m in error on Florida law, someone please enlighten me…
EDIT – As a note, I truly *love* going into little mom-and-pop pawn shops if I’m out-n-about.
I love browsing them to see if they have something for sale that they have no clue as to how valuable it is. It can be *very* lucrative flipping them on places like eBay… 😉
At least lately I haven’t seen much reference to those obnoxious students out parroting Karl Marx.
A lot of effort being put into a totally useless law that won’t stop crime, but will create it. I have no idea how politicians can be so fucking stupid. Vote the idiots out.
Florida’s Republican Governor has exposed himself to be Marxist pig. The bill was written by 4th graders and checked by 3 graders. The NRA is not fighting the bump stock law, even though it is so badly written it will ban aftermarket trigger packs, muzzle devices, buffers, and some gun-smithing operations. There is no standard for firing rate and every gun will vary by gun and shooter.
The legislature has done nothing to make schools safer. Nothing. None of the new laws would have stopped the parkland shooter or any other school shooter. Its a feel good law and all feel good laws do is harm the law abiding. The slippery slope of citizen disarmament has just been oiled by the Florida legislature and Florida’s Marxist Governor Scott
The NRA field a lawsuit against the bastards. “Fighting” them in the legislature was going anywhere. It was mob rule. The Fl law does is not Constitutional and unless YOU are going to “fight” (with bullets) the courts is where it will have to be decided.
If we look at this from a military strategy standpoint. As civies 18-21 would be a good number to shave off the top of 2A. Banning the ar15 which is common use and banning semi auto function along with banning mags over 30 rounds seems like revolt worthy shit to me.. Its time guys we have to tell them to fuck themselves and we have to start making the motion for both civilian and military to start arresting these political jagoffs.. Time to start tapping the shoulders of the joint chiefs and our friends and relatives in the military… If we don’t were going to lose our constitution right now in 2018…
Although I understand the spirit of the Fla law its too easy for law enforcement to abuse.. Also the stupid bump stock ban is too ambiguous. So on Oct 1 something that has been legal for a decade or more is not not legal. What do people who own them do? Screw Scott, I hope he goes down to defeat in his bid for the senate.
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