https://youtu.be/UQZBn7cplhg
The #1 thing that can ruin a good gun is a bad trigger. No matter how accurate you can make the rest of your gun, if the trigger isn’t well designed then there’s no way the shooter can control it with enough finesse to actually get a good grouping. New York doesn’t care.
The New York City Police Department purposefully issues their officers handguns with extremely heavy triggers to try and deter them from using their firearms, but as a side effect the officers are wildly inaccurate and tend to hit innocent bystanders.
Seeing the clear positive impact of heavy triggers among the NYPD, New York Democrats are trying to mandate the same thing be done to every civilian firearm in the state.
The bill currently under consideration, S3444, is ostensibly designed to keep children under five years old from being able to operate a firearm. It demands that all firearms sold within the state include mechanisms to prevent children from firing the firearm. From the bill:
SUCH DEVICES OR MECHANISMS SHALL INCLUDE, BUT NOT BE LIMITED TO: THE CAPACITY TO ADJUST THE TRIGGER RESISTANCE TO AT LEAST A TEN POUND PULL, THE CAPACITY TO ALTER THE FIRING MECHANISM SO THAT AN AVERAGE FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD’S HANDS ARE TOO SMALL TO OPERATE THE PISTOL OR REVOLVER, OR THE CAPACITY TO REQUIRE A SERIES OF MULTIPLE MOTIONS IN ORDER TO FIRE THE PISTOL OR REVOLVER.
I admit that they might be approaching this with the best of intentions. Accidental deaths of children are a terrible thing, but as we’ve seen time and again the number of accidental child deaths involving firearms are amazingly small and continue to decline.
I’d argue that a better use of their time would be to mandate some basic firearms safety in schools the same way that New York currently does drug and sex education, but I’m not as enlightened as the ruling class in New York apparently.
There’s two huge problems with this proposal. The most obvious issue: accuracy.
Lighter triggers might make it more easy for firearms to accidentally discharge in untrained hands, but it also makes the guns more accurate. As any firearms instructor can tell you one of the biggest issues with accuracy in handguns is sympathetic squeezing — even though you just want to move your trigger finger, the other fingers in your hand will tend to squeeze as well.
Squeezing all the fingers in your hand will cause the barrel to move and your shot to swing wide, missing the target. So instead of shooting the murderer coming towards you with a hatchet you’ve now shot the pregnant innocent bystander or the proverbial school bus full of nuns. You’ve made the entire public into NYPD officers, and their accuracy is miserable (18 percent hit rate).
Other states mandate trigger pull weight requirements for firearms sold in their borders, but ten pounds is about twice what other states require. More weight means more inaccuracy and higher probability of killing innocent bystanders.
The second problem is for Americans with disabilities.
Some people only have the grip strength of a typical five-year-old. I know a number of people with disabilities who enjoy the shooting sports specifically because it puts them on an even playing field with everyone else and allows them to compete just as effectively no matter what disability they may have. This bill would severely impact their ability to enjoy the shooting sports and remove a little bit of light from their life.
At the moment there are five sponsors and co-sponsors of the bill, all Democrats: José M. Serrano, Jamaal Bailey, Liz Krueger, James Sanders Jr., and Daniel L. Squadron.
Normally the current state of the Senate would mean that this bill would be dead on arrival, with a majority of Republican Senators capable of blocking the Democrats. But as we saw with the NY SAFE Act the New York Republicans are about as reliable as La La Land winning Best Picture.
Stay tuned as we bring you continuing coverage of the decline and fall of the Second Amendment in New York.
Their intentions are never good.
“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.” ~ Milton Friedman
Because heavy trigger pulls have historically worked so well for the NYPD…
Anyone know what their hit rate is perp/bystander?
Related: “Other states mandate trigger pull weight requirements for firearms sold in their borders, but ten pounds is about twice what other states require.”
This needs an article.
I did not know this, and I’m intrigued.
What other states, and what is the requirement in each state?
TTAG, help me fill this (apparently) huge gap in my gun-guy knowledge.
Looks like only MA has a law (and it’s not a law passed by their bleating legislature, it’s a “rule”). From Reddit:
[–]mlaboss 3 points 2 years ago
The trigger weight thing is part of an overall set of “consumer protection” regulations promulgated by the Attorney General’s office (940 CMR 16). Here is the relevant bit from those regulations:
It shall be an unfair or deceptive practice for a handgun-purveyor to transfer or offer to transfer to any customer located within the Commonwealth any handgun which does not contain a mechanism which effectively precludes an average five year old child from operating the handgun when it is ready to fire; such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to: raising trigger resistance to at least a ten pound pull, altering the firing mechanism so that an average five year old child’s hands are too small to operate the handgun, or requiring a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun.
So as you can see, the regulation only applies to “handgun-purveyors” (AKA dealers), and the 10 pound pull is just one way that the regulation can be satisfied. Many 1911s are available for sale in MA, and they have trigger pulls well under 10 pounds. However, they have a manual safety, which satisfies the “series of multiple motions” criterion, so a 10 pound pull isn’t necessary. Why some manufacturers insist on having both a 10 pound pull and a manual safety on their MA models is a mystery to me.
So, the NY law is meant to mimic the MA law.
“I admit that they might be approaching this with the best of intentions.”
No, this is the political equivalent of using children as human shields.
“I admit that they might be approaching this with the best of intentions. Accidental deaths of children are a terrible thing,..”
When I was a kid this was called natural selection. Guns don’t kill accidentally, stupidity does.
Swimming pools, 5 gallon buckets, detergent that looks like candy, electrical outlets, dogs, bicycles, cars, their own parents, (the list is endless).
In 5 years it will be a mandatory 100# trigger pull….for the children.
Better start working out then.
http://ironmind.com/product-info/grip-strength-training-tools/captains-of-crush-grippers/
NY dems tomorrow are introducing a law that requires all guns to be stored in a block of solid concrete, requiring a jackhammer for access…it’s for the children!
The road to hell is paved with good intentions….Instead of denying guns exist, making mandatory education in gun safety will do to prevent accidental deaths than anything else
To be quite honest with you I don’t understand why mandatory firearms safety classes aren’t something there at the middle school level. For a country positively inundated with devices that, by design, project lethal force at great distances we seem to have a primitive approach to public safety. What, handrails for stairs is a necessity but making sure kids don’t accidentally kill each other is too much?
Furthermore how can we, the people, be a well regulated militia if the average person’s firearms knowledge comes from the television? There’s nothing well regulated about ignorantly fondling some device in the vain hope it responds as intended and on time.
“To be quite honest with you I don’t understand why mandatory firearms safety classes aren’t something there at the middle school level.”
You’re right, we need to. The antis will pitch a screaming fit if we tried.
A serious suggestion for you – Write a letter to the editor of a local newspaper floating that proposal.
Make sure the paper has an on-line comment section. Let TTAG know where the link is if it is published.
I think it will be eye-opening.
A few weeks back John Bloch asked for suggestions to present to the 2A committee headed by Trump jr., that idea was floated.
The Left will *demand* we *not* teach a kid to not touch a gun. (Eddie Eagle program).
We need to call them out on it…
The problem is “we” let these idiots introduce these bills and then click bait them. Can we not put a lawsuit with some merit each time these idiots blatantly breach the ethical barrier. Or slam them insistently in the press.
You can’t sue for introducing a bill, you can only sue to injunct it’s enforcement. And this one would surely pass muster in the NY and federal appeals process.
It’s a stupid, stupid law. The good option is to vote out the lawmakers. But NY can’t because the morons in NYC are, well, morons.
How about conspiracy to violate civil rights? How about breach of Oath of Office dictating upholding the Constitution?
That’s been tried. You’ll be called a loon and the judge will tell you to shut up and sit down. If you are smart and informed, the legal proceedings will turn into some form of kabuki theater out of “respect” for the legal process while you continue to be told to shut up and sit down and we can make whatever laws we want.
This does none of those things. They can even point to the government agents- the NYPD- and talk about how they all qualify with a trigger heavier than 10lb.
Seriously, in terms of infringements this is nothing. Hell, as written there’s nothing stopping someone from just changing the trigger back to whatever anyway after they buy it.
Betcha I can, in this case such a requirement would violate the Americans with Dissabilities Act and would constitute hate speech under New York statute.
hahaha I’ll take that bet.
I won’t even be mad if I lose. But I have a strong feeling I wouldn’t. Have you read decisions of NY courts recently? And the 3rd Circuit of federal appeals?
Then get your gun and go enact some citizens arrests on these right infringing terrorists disguised as politicians. Then hold court and execute them in the street.
Offer free trigger locks to anyone with the purchase of another gun or rebates for gun safes. Done.
Paid for with someone else’s money? How about you take responsibility for your own actions. It’s not the government’s or the industries job to do stuff for you.Do for yourself and stay out of my pockets.
Fine. Stay out of my pockets then. You aren’t allowed to ride a motorcycle, play sports, smoke, drink, or go hunting because all of these activities statistically are much more likely to cause injury than others and end up costing society- and all of us- money. If you engage in any of them and are injured you have to pay cash, up front, before being treated. No health insurance allowed, employer based or not, because you are taking money out of my pockets (mah premiums!) to cover YOUR individual problems (which is the whole point of insurance- otherwise you could just have a bank account).
Sorry buttercup, get used to society- the entire thing is taking money out of someone’s pockets to pay for stuff when needed. Personally I don’t think any of these measures ARE needed, but since society- which includes you but is not made up wholly of your opinions- is worried about kids getting access to guns, I would prefer society as a whole deal with the problem by supplying things like gun locks instead of pushing that responsibility, via law, directly onto specific owners.
This is only one of about 10 new bills being rolled through.
They all stink. SAFE Act 2! It’s back. And this time…it’s personal!
Safe Act 2: Safe Saferer
The best solution to passing laws that do nothing is to pass more of them.
An average of 7.5 people accidentally drown in NY every year based on a 23 year average. This number doesn’t include residential swimming pools. It’s for state run facilities and beaches.
I couldn’t find an accidental shooting number for just NY. Nationwide 110 kids are killed each year due to accidental shootings. 300 kids nationwide drown in just pools. Probably more so in southern states. But it seems to me fences save lives.
The 110 is from VOX the I’ve seen numbers as low as 62 per year.
I would support this bill if the protective details of these politicians had triggers installed that required twice the minimum legal limit for civilians. In this case, 20-pound triggers.
Because if ten’s good, then 20 should be even better!
John
The New York City Police Department purposefully issues their officers handguns with extremely heavy triggers to try and deter them from using their firearms, but as a side effect the officers are wildly inaccurate and tend to hit innocent bystanders.
The New York City Police Department purposefully issues their officers handguns with extremely heavy triggers to try and deter them from using their firearms, but as a side effect the officers try to walk around with 8-10lb of pressure on the trigger in case they need to shoot.
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2016-04-19/ex-nypd-officer-to-be-sentenced-in-stairwell-shooting
I can see the return of S&W’s Lemon Squeezer.
As we continue our tour through the Museum of Bad Ideas, if you look to your left you will see a bad idea for police that spread to civilians… the New York Trigger!
I thought the heavy triggers the NYPD uses was to reduce accidental discharges not to “deter them from using their firearms.” This came about after the switch from revolvers to striker fired pistols.
I do like the states idea to compare civilian firearms to police firearms. As I believe firearms and magazines in common usage with police equal common usage for civilians. Police are civilians not military and the military can’t be used against US citizens without a declaration.
They should also determine that police in NY use standard capacity magazines and “assault rifles.” If police use them to protect people than those firearms and magazines are good enough for citizens to use for protection.
Yeah, that’s the reason. That said, unsurprisingly, a heavy trigger does not actually prevent that (see: Akai Gurley)
Massachusetts has a ten-pound boat anchor mandatory trigger for new DA guns. It’s not an ownership restriction; it’s a regulation affecting FFLs.
Which is why aftermarket trigger kits and gunsmith trigger jobs are so popular here, and why a S&W Shield costs about $100 more here, all in, than anywhere else.
And for the folks who think that a ten pound pull on a revolver trigger is the same as a ten pound pull on a pistol trigger, all I can say is: try it. You will be singing a different tune.
If this passes, someones going to make a mint in NY selling surplus Nagant revolvers…
Someone who knows handguns! Bravo!!
And how is this going to stop a 5y/o from pitting the gun on the ground and pushing down on the trigger with their thumbs?
Not a revolver guy, but I can emphatically state that a 5 year old is in no danger with a semi-automatic pistol in their hand, as long as there is no round in the chamber.
As others have addressed, people with disabilities/limited hand strength are in the same boat. I’m not advocating for a ban on keeping weapons loaded with a round in the chamber, but it would certainly be more effective to have a gun that can be shot accurately, and still keep kids from shooting others.
Of course, gun control is just about control. Anti-gunners use every “win’ as a stepping stone.
PLEASE STOP ALL DISCUSSION OF THIS ISSUE AND REMOVE ANYTHING ABOUT IT FROM THIS WEBSITE BEFORE DEMOCRATS IN CONNECTICUT FIND OUT. PLEASE.
Dy,
Oh no, you made the mistake I made!
You let everyone on TTAG know that you do empty chamber carry
Be ready for all the hate that will soon be unleashed on you
“If you don’t carry with a round in the chamber you might as well not carry it all”
” you won’t have time to chamber a round in an emergency”
“You will fumble the racking of the slide”
And my favorite one “this just shows that you are afraid of your gun”
As for the mandated 10 pound trigger pull law, is no one going to say what about people who don’t have children?
Geez, do New Yorkers teach their kids not to play with matches?
Your comment just proves that you’re a matchphobic bigot that doesn’t understand the oppression that a match faces every time its head bursts into flame.
Another imbecilic and UNENFORCEABLE law from the fucking retarded left progressives.
It’s unfortunately entirely enforceable. The law only applies to FFLs selling guns, not to citizens. So the bad news is that you can bet they will make sure anyone selling guns would go through the process. The good news is that anyone could just put a regular spring back in the moment they left the store and it would be legal.
plus I doubt it’ll pass… even the fudd stores don’t want to have to deal with this crap.
All children’s spoons must include holes in said spoon to protect children from too much ice cream and Diabeetus.
Remember the idea of putting holes in the bottoms of 5 gallon buckets so if the bucket filled with water, no toddler could drown in said bucket?
Yet NY doesn’t prosecute gun crimes. Also note that the greatest proponents of gun restriction are always minorities. Members of the same minority groups which commit all the gun crime. Odd.
This state sucks. I need to get the hell out of here.
Just when I think NY legislators can’t get any more stupid than they already are. And yet people keep voting for them. I guess NYrs are happy with sanctuary cities, gang problems, high taxes, crappy job opportunities, fleeing population and inflated housing prices.
Stop giving them credit for good intentions. There might be some ignorant supporters that buy in to the rationale, but the perpetrators of this BS have but one intention: to make shooting firearms more difficult and less fun so that fewer people will want to do it. It’s just one more hassle dreamed up to harass and combat gun culture, because they see it as the enemy.
They can pull my finger
There’s nothing stopping a three or four year-old from pulling a ten-pound trigger. Sure, they couldn’t do it the way you or I would, by wrapping their hand around the grip and pulling with the index finger. However, children being such little problem- solvers, they soon figure out they can put both thumbs on the trigger, and interlace their fingers across the backstrap. Way to go, NY Assembly. After all, what’s a few toddlers shooting themselves in the face when you get to f*ck with legitimate gun owners?
Rather than bitch & moan; It would be more productive to actually address your concerns to your NY lawmakers. folks.
This is really stupid and will end with more kids killing themselves. If little kids are determined to pull the trigger, they’ll use their thumbs since they’re the strongest. The other fingers wrap around the grip and deactivate any grip safety. To complete picture, the muzzle is squarely pointed at their chest or face, so a miss or minor wound is unlikely.
What about the poor old lady who needs to defend herself and has arthritis limiting her ability. Or the woman trying to protect herself from a rape attack and doesn’t have the strength in her fingers. Ridiculous BS legislation. Cmon what’s wrong with these idiots. Responsible law abiding gun ownerso lock up their guns. Wasteful spending of tax dollars.
Wow – First the video
Thought the information was thoughtful, fat fingers and all. (from another fat finger guy).
Did not know New York and Mass had trigger requirements. Are the requirements the same for rifles?
I applaud you for accepting the fact that some would criticize you for wanting a heavier trigger pull. Gives me food for thought for my protection weapon trigger. As for the wife’s – her Ruger is tough for her.
The comment about shipping – Really? I guess you have not shipped anything lately. Just packaging and time to produce labels and supplies, not counting the supplies, it is not a money maker. It’s the cost of doing business.
Comments – I knew the law makers in the Northeast had the “Nanny State” views: “We are here because your to Stupid to take care of yourself”. We are now being inundated with those fleeing. Which means your rules will be coming here.
We were doing fine before they get here.
Voting for the same “Political Zeros” get you the same results. Having people that can not take care of themselves gives the politician their purpose, but that is another issue.
Thanks for the forum.
Yes I live in the South. Please keep your idiots there. We already have all the Californians and people from Illinois and loads of New Yorker’s.
The article mentions the NY10 triggers on NYPD-issue Glocks and blames that for the miserable marksmanship that causes NYPD officers to be more likely to hit a bystander than a perp — I have to disagree. I was born and raised in NYC (in the NYPD’s 94th Precinct to be exact) and I can absolutely tell you that miserable marksmanship, and shooting bystanders was the norm for NYPD long before the Glocks started replacing their revolvers. The main change when they got the Glocks was that they added Spray-&-Pray to their marksmanship techniques, resulting in an increased number of wild shots with no real change in accuracy.
Regardless of the public rationale for the introduction of the NY10 triggers, the reality is that they were mostly intended to reduce the instances of Glock Leg being experienced by the NYPD which seemed unable to train officers to remove-finger-from-trigger-before-holstering-gun.
Standard Glock trigger pull from the factory is 5.5 lbs. This law would mean reengineering the Glocks to be sold in NY, or just banning them (shades of the California register of allowed firearms?) Moved out of New England to Florida in ’87 for husband to go to Bible college, protesting God’s will all the way. Now I thank Him for moving us.
Apparently you’re not very familiar with Glocks, Nancy. Yes, the standard factory trigger pull is supposed to be about 5.5 lbs. But drop-in parts kits to give a lighter or heavier trigger have been available for many years — in fact one of the standard kits is routinely called the NY10 because it gives the 10 pound trigger that is installed in every NYPD Glock (as was mentioned obliquely in the article). So no new engineering is needed.
One week left in the NYS legislative session and thankfully both the Senate and Assembly bills appear stuck in committee. Nick, thank you for including the bill number, made it much easier to track.
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